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Swordgleam
2010-02-07, 12:18 PM
It's a common problem that seems to come up a lot on these boards: one PC is an optimized combat machine, and the other characters aren't. How to challenge the combat monkey without TPKing everyone else?

There are a lot of solutions, the most popular ones usually being "talk with the player out of game" and "include more non-combat encounters." Let's assume, for the purposes of this thread, that those solutions are insufficient for a particular campaign or player.

I think something fun and potentially useful is for us to brainstorm a list of good in-game reasons for enemies to target a particular character in combat, time and again. This gives that character a challenge, keeps everyone else from dying futilely, and helps you draw the combat-focused character into the plot. (Obviously you have to make sure they're cool with this and don't feel vindictively singled out.)


Here's some examples, to get the ball rolling and show you what I'm thinking of:

You have a player running a classic overpowered druid build. A grove of druid NPCs decides that the character is disrupting the balance of nature by drawing too much strength from the natural world. The grove alone is not powerful enough to take this PC on, so members of the group shadow the party. Whenever the party is distracted by another enemy, druid NPCs will attack the PC druid, hoping that their strength combined with the danger posed by whatever else the party is fighting will be enough to overcome the abomination.

The overpowered character in your group is a wizard. Someone has started selling magical items on the black market that allegedly allow you to steal another person's arcane powers. You just have to kill them/knock them out/get close enough while they're distracted. Whether the items work or not, hordes of power-hungry lesser mages will now be trying to knock off the wizard - usually while he's busy with the ancient white dragon that would ordinarily only take him three rounds to blow to bits.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-07, 12:22 PM
Simple; They recognise him as the most dangerous and he's targetted accordingly?

DragoonWraith
2010-02-07, 12:24 PM
This works fine if the other players are not interested much in combat, but if they are, and all of the enemies are focusing on the optimized one, they're going to feel like they're sitting on the sidelines, just cheering on their side. Not exactly fun. I personally think it seems unlikely that it'll work very well...

Ryuuk
2010-02-07, 12:27 PM
Lets say the party's fighting an organization of some kind. Their first few victories go about normally, but afterwords, the organization starts throwing more resources into getting rid of them. They learn who that parties backbone is and start targeting him specifically, under the premise that once the head falls, his lackey will follow suit. They could set a bounty on his head, so that he's targeted by opportunists hoping to make a quick buck. His infamy would spread within the organizations own ranks and lesser members would realize that whoever takes his head can will be seen much better in the eyes of the higher ups.

essentially, the big guy finds himself the target of tanglefoot bags and such debuff effects, they focus on, if not outright killing, disabling him so as to not end up as another name in his list of casualties.

Optimystik
2010-02-07, 12:31 PM
The problem with this approach is that it tends to sideline the other players, unless they aren't built for support.

The Bard and Beguiler might be happy to have everyone run past them to get to the Cleric/Druid, but the Fighter and Ranger are going to feel gypped.

Oslecamo
2010-02-07, 12:35 PM
This works fine if the other players are not interested much in combat, but if they are, and all of the enemies are focusing on the optimized one, they're going to feel like they're sitting on the sidelines, just cheering on their side. Not exactly fun. I personally think it seems unlikely that it'll work very well...

The enemies are specificaly tailored to counter the strongest player tactics, whitout hindering the other players too much.

Entangle? Monsters fly, but they still focus in melee combat.

Super power attack machine? That feat negates the extra damage.

Mind tricks? Say hello to undeads!

Invisibility? See invisibility!

Fogs? Sorry, the monster can teleport out.

Orbs? Sorry, the monster has scintilating scales.

Also, shameless promotion to my personal guide for DMs to build challenging ecounters, with several tips on how to counter several Batman tactics.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7423546

Swordgleam
2010-02-07, 12:36 PM
The problem with this approach is that it tends to sideline the other players, unless they aren't built for support.

The Bard and Beguiler might be happy to have everyone run past them to get to the Cleric/Druid, but the Fighter and Ranger are going to feel gypped.


This works fine if the other players are not interested much in combat, but if they are, and all of the enemies are focusing on the optimized one, they're going to feel like they're sitting on the sidelines, just cheering on their side. Not exactly fun. I personally think it seems unlikely that it'll work very well...


I probably should have made it more clear in my opening post - the point is to give the optimized player extra opponents, while the rest of the party still faces the normal enemies.

So in my first example, the party runs across a group of hostile kobolds. The kobolds engage the party normally, using whatever tactics they normally would. Two rounds into the battle, three druids show up and dogpile the druid PC. Everyone else is still getting all the challenge they normally would out of the kobold encounter, and the the druid PC isn't blowing the kobolds away because the NPC druids are drawing some of his fire.

Optimystik
2010-02-07, 12:43 PM
But it isn't the same challenge. One bad saving throw is all it takes for the power player to be taken out, and then his opposition turns on the rest of the unoptimized party. Or the reverse coudl occur - others in the party are cut down, and the optimized player must now dea with the regular enemies plus the special challenge you put together for him.

And even if they succeed - the other players are going to know that they won because you "went easy on them." Maybe your players are fine with that... I know I wouldn't be.

A better solution is simply to get all the party members on the same footing at the beginning so you can be fair throughout the game. Use different point buys, houserule abilities, dole out helpful magic items to the weaker players, etc.

Lamech
2010-02-07, 12:45 PM
Optimized wizards? Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm), nightmare another nightmare, more nightmares, followed by nightmares. Ditto for sorc characters. Then the others don't feel useless and the optimized guy is significantly reduced in power.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-07, 12:49 PM
Religious motivation: the character shows a particular holy symbol.
Racial motivation: the character is the only party member of a particular race.
Particular weaponry: the character has some special weapon like a spiked chain, so they're targeted first.
Gear: the character has expensive gear, so taking them down means their stuff can be used to fight the other party members.

Quincunx
2010-02-07, 12:52 PM
Extremes of charisma: the character is so compelling that enemies forget others are around, or so repulsive they shove the others aside with cries of "not you, you are almost human" or "unite against the beast in your midst!"

Swordgleam
2010-02-07, 12:55 PM
A better solution is simply to get all the party members on the same footing at the beginning so you can be fair throughout the game. Use different point buys, houserule abilities, dole out helpful magic items to the weaker players, etc.


Obviously there are a lot of solutions to this problem. I'm offering one possible solution, and asking people to brainstorm ways to implement it. I'm not saying it's the optimal solution in all, or even most, cases. I doubt I would use it any of the games I'm running right now - but it's fun to think of possibilities nonetheless.

This isn't a "how can I deal with an overpowered player" thread. There are a ton of those. This is a brainstorming thread that perhaps someone will one day find useful, and perhaps not.

Satyr
2010-02-07, 01:03 PM
If the enemies are sentient, they will likely attack either the weakest link (that means the weakest character) to achieve a quick success and geting their backs free to gang up on the more powerful ones, or they attack oone of the most famous characters for the prestige - beating one outstanding legendary hero will booster the status of many people in many cultures, and is something to build the own legend on.

Altima
2010-02-07, 01:26 PM
Option 1: Raise the power level of the other players until they are near or equal to the level of the rest of the party. Warlock underperforming? Give him a few extra d6s for his blast (even another invocation). Rogue being overshadowed? Give him an item that allows free-action travel twice per combat to get in a few good sneak attacks.

Option 2: Nerf the character. This can either be in the form of an OOC tune-down of said character's antics, or an IC reason. Wizard ultra powerful? Killing his familiar will do some permanant damage and cannot be replaced for a year. Druid ultra powerful? Kill his companion. Bonus if she shows a complete lack of concern that allows you to put the druid on a deity's ****-list. Druids ain't so tough when their gods don't grant special abilities and spells.

Option 3: Specially tailored encounters. There's always a reason for something to be going after someone. Using the above druid as an example, perhaps, during a quest, the druid did something that caused an ecological impact. Now let us say there were a cabal of rival druids in said area who worship a different deity. Suddenly, they're upset.

Bonus if the *other* characters in the party are magically coerced to attacking the uber-character during the encounter as well. Laying the smackdown on the glory hog is somewhat cathargic, from what I am told.

As a DM, you are not confined by any rules. You can create any sort of rule or justification that you like. If the wizard's causing you trouble, well, that's an easy one. Who are always the first two targets in any sort of encounters? The healer and the mage. If one of the meleers is doing it, well, perhaps the enemies who are part of the encounter have spotted from a distance that the cloth-wearing gal can manipulate the universe with her brain, and would perhaps be more willing to deal with the more mundane warrior.

The Big Dice
2010-02-07, 01:33 PM
Something I'm surprised nobody has touched on is to make things personal. Maybe the optimised PC has a poweful enemy who gives his minions orders to target him. He might not even know who the enemy is initially, but after a couple of BBEGs tell him their Master has ordered his death, he should start to get curious. And you could hang an entire campaign on that.

Emmerask
2010-02-07, 01:33 PM
Option 1: Raise the power level of the other players until they are near or equal to the level of the rest of the party. Warlock underperforming? Give him a few extra d6s for his blast (even another invocation). Rogue being overshadowed? Give him an item that allows free-action travel twice per combat to get in a few good sneak attacks.


Increasing the powerlevel through items is my usual route but there is one major problem with it, if the player starts to optimize after he has gotten those items he is even more powerfull ^^

Raum
2010-02-07, 01:46 PM
I think something fun and potentially useful is for us to brainstorm a list of good in-game reasons for enemies to target a particular character in combat, time and again. Here's a couple ideas: Revenge. Since the character is a combat monster, he's probably killed a few people. How many had friends who want vengeance? How many put up rewards specifically for that character?
Honor. An honorable / lawful opponent may simply want to match himself against whomever he perceives as the primary combat threat.
Mistakes. Mistaken identity, took a wrong turn, or simply got irritated at the first person who crossed him.
It's a distraction. Attacks seemed to target him but that was simply a diversion. The real thief is using it to steal that artifact he wanted...

Altima
2010-02-07, 04:15 PM
Increasing the powerlevel through items is my usual route but there is one major problem with it, if the player starts to optimize after he has gotten those items he is even more powerfull ^^

It doesn't have to be items, either. It can be actual changes to a character, such as, oh, an artificial eye that grants blindsight, for example.

As for the items, well, that's the glorious thing--sometimes items go bad (run out of charges), meet bad ends (improved sunder), or just get taken out (Disjunction).

Or maybe the items themselves are cursed.

There are many ways you can encourage the players to be a tad more respectful. If they lean upon an item, it may be kicked out beneath them.