For a game with 100s of gods, why are the D&D faithful monolatrous?

[faceroll]

I know there are a few prestige classes out there that let you worship a pantheon, but by the majority of it, many people seem to have a problem with someone being able to draw divine power from multiple sources. Have you guys ever come across this?

It seems to me that you could have Athena as your patron deity and draw wisdom from her, but also pray to Zeus and draw strength from him. I don't see any particular reason why deities would demand exclusive worship. I can see that some would, because they're sociopathic meglomaniacs or whatever, but not ALL the deities.

For instance, you can be a cleric of War & Sun, but not worship Heironeus and Pelor and get the same domains.

Your thoughts on a cleric who worships two deities and gets mechanical benefits from both?

Definition of monolatry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatry)

[Prime32]

Your deity determines where you go when you die. In formal pantheons they have an agreement that everyone goes to their god of the dead, but otherwise there are problems.

[Thane of Fife]

While nothing stops an individual from revering all the gods, a cleric can only be a priest of one. Using your Greek mythology example, think about the Oracle of Apollo, or the keepers of a temple of Athena. Even they may respect all the gods, but they can only guide the faithful in revering one.

Or, the priest is supposed to be the hand of their god, if you will, and gods in a pantheon are likely to have different, possibly conflicting interests. It's not reasonable that one person could serve all the gods (though there are some cases where one might make an exception - a priest of Tyr and Torm, for example).

[faceroll]

Your deity determines where you go when you die. In formal pantheons they have an agreement that everyone goes to their god of the dead, but otherwise there are problems.

Ah, that makes sense. I forgot about godly realms.


While nothing stops an individual from revering all the gods, a cleric can only be a priest of one. Using your Greek mythology example, think about the Oracle of Apollo, or the keepers of a temple of Athena. Even they may respect all the gods, but they can only guide the faithful in revering one.

Or, the priest is supposed to be the hand of their god, if you will, and gods in a pantheon are likely to have different, possibly conflicting interests. It's not reasonable that one person could serve all the gods (though there are some cases where one might make an exception - a priest of Tyr and Torm, for example).

Your argument is largely tautalogical. You can't do it because you can't do it. I go that part- I'm just wondering if there's an actual explanation.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Because Clerics could then pick and choose the best domains by worshiping all the gods? :smalltongue:

[faceroll]

Because Clerics could then pick and choose the best domains by worshiping all the gods? :smalltongue:

They can already do that, though, by being a cleric without a deity.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually Clerics can worship entire pantheons... in Eberron, at least.

And, seriously, this is how it worked in real world pantheons - a priest would often be a priest of Zeus, or a priest of Hermes, not of the Olympian pantheon in general.

[The Dark Fiddler]

But then you have the DM ready to say "No, you can't get those domains with that cause," or just "no."

Plus, I was mostly joking. :smalltongue:

[AtopTheMountain]

There's a section near the start of Complete Divine (under the heading "What do you worship?" I seem to recall) that basically says that you can, in fact, worship pantheons.

[JoshuaZ]

Clerics generally but not always get their power from a specific deity. But they can get them from a pantheon or segment of a pantheon. Thus, while Redcloak is the high priest of the Dark One, unnamed guy in blue was a cleric of the pantheon as a whole.

Individual people in the general population will likely in most setting worship some subset of a pantheon. What this does when they die is setting dependent. To continue the OOTS example, apparently if you aren't closely connected to a specific deity you still go to your alignment appropriate place as we see with Roy. Note that this isn't true always. For example, in the Forgotten Realms setting, if you don't worship a specific deity, you are sent to the city of the dead and (until Kelevmor became the god of the dead), have a pretty unpleasant time.

To put it more technically, in general, in most settings most people will be polytheists, some people will be henotheists or at least monolatrists, and clerics may be any based on the individual theology.

[valadil]

I usually do play characters who worship multiple gods.

Clerics, paladins, etc are devoted to one. I feel like you could have a priest of some sort who worships entire pantheons, but that would be the character not the class. Maybe they should add some classes to represent this kind of character?

[afroakuma]

I recall Forgotten Realms fiction clearly indicating that laypeople make token venerations to multiple deities as the situation warrants, including even evil deities from time to time (Beshaba most notably).

[Siegel]

I don't really understand that.

There are 4 possibilities i think

1. You only worship one god and get powers from him
2. You worship all of them but only one grants you powers
3. You worship all of them and they all give you a bit of power
4. You worship all of them and everyone gives you different powers : Call lightning : Zeus / Owls Wisdom : Athena

Why only allow option #1

[faceroll]

And, seriously, this is how it worked in real world pantheons - a priest would often be a priest of Zeus, or a priest of Hermes, not of the Olympian pantheon in general.

Right, a priest. But a cleric isn't just a priest- it's a wandering holy warrior, a sage, a witch, a monk, a holy man, whatever. Cleric refers to the mechanics, priest is the profession. A priest could be an expert, a cleric, a paladin, an adept, even an arcane caster with the right feats and/or prc.

I don't see why you couldn't have mercenary clerics who say "alright, Great Mystic One of the Far South, whose lands I journey in; grant me the powers to cross you desert and I shall reward you tenfold and serve you for a year and a day."

As for real life, don't bring it up. I don't want this thread to get locked.


I don't really understand that.

There are 4 possibilities i think

1. You only worship one god and get powers from him
2. You worship all of them but only one grants you powers
3. You worship all of them and they all give you a bit of power
4. You worship all of them and everyone gives you different powers : Call lightning : Zeus / Owls Wisdom : Athena

Why only allow option #1

Exactly!

[JoshuaZ]

Well, but many campaign settings don't allow exactly one. See again OOTS. Or Eberron.

[herrhauptmann]

I know there are a few prestige classes out there that let you worship a pantheon, but by the majority of it, many people seem to have a problem with someone being able to draw divine power from multiple sources. Have you guys ever come across this?

It seems to me that you could have Athena as your patron deity and draw wisdom from her, but also pray to Zeus and draw strength from him. I don't see any particular reason why deities would demand exclusive worship. I can see that some would, because they're sociopathic meglomaniacs or whatever, but not ALL the deities.

For instance, you can be a cleric of War & Sun, but not worship Heironeus and Pelor and get the same domains.

Your thoughts on a cleric who worships two deities and gets mechanical benefits from both?

Definition of monolatry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatry)

If you were to play a cleric worshiping two gods, I'd be surprised if you didn't turn around and claim that meant you could use 4 domains at level 1, rather than 2. Pretty overpowered. Now imagine a radiant servant who gets even MORE domains.

As for the 'why' of it? Well it probably goes back 30+ years. *Casts Speak with dead* Gygax, Arneson, why do clerics have to be monotheistic even when they know they live in a polytheistic world?
"Because we said so."

Seriously, if it bothers you that much, come up with a simple set of rules to allow the worship of a pantheon that won't be overpowered. Post it here when you're done.

[JoshuaZ]

If you were to play a cleric worshiping two gods, I'd be surprised if you didn't turn around and claim that meant you could use 4 domains at level 1, rather than 2. Pretty overpowered. Now imagine a radiant servant who gets even MORE domains.



Not really. Many a deity has more than two domains. Their clerics still only get to choose 2 domains. If you worshiped multiple deities, arguably you would have more flexibility in domain choices. But that's a separate claim. Or one might only have access to the domains that don't strongly conflict with each other (so for example, a neutral good cleric worshiping a chaotic good deity and a lawful good deity shouldn't be able to take either the Chaos or Law domains even if each of the deities has access to one). This shouldn't complicate things much.

[faceroll]

If you were to play a cleric worshiping two gods, I'd be surprised if you didn't turn around and claim that meant you could use 4 domains at level 1, rather than 2. Pretty overpowered. Now imagine a radiant servant who gets even MORE domains.

Sure, and I could say that since my monk is so super awesome, he shoots laser beams of death from his eyes at will that disintegrate whatever they hit, no save.

It says quite plainly in the book that a cleric gets 2 domains, regardless of who or what he's worshipping.


As for the 'why' of it? Well it probably goes back 30+ years. *Casts Speak with dead* Gygax, Arneson, why do clerics have to be monotheistic even when they know they live in a polytheistic world?
"Because we said so."

That might be it. Didn't clerics used to have to worship a deity?


Seriously, if it bothers you that much, come up with a simple set of rules to allow the worship of a pantheon that won't be overpowered. Post it here when you're done.

Apparently there are already such rules in other settings. This thread isn't about a rules discussion, I want to examine why people are so beholden to this idea that you have to worship only one thing to get spells from it.

[Drakevarg]

Easy. Because the gods don't like to share.

[faceroll]

Easy. Because the gods don't like to share.

What if you're the god of sharing?
What if you're a minor deity and the only way to gain worshippers is to share?
What if you don't care?

[afroakuma]

The formal reason is that gods in many D&D settings derive power from worship. It benefits them to have monopolistic worship in great quantities. Why would they give a cleric, one who does miracles of their faith, power if that cleric is going to moonlight in the service of another deity?

[Drakevarg]

Then that god will have a special factor that lets you also worship another diety that also likes sharing/doesn't care, in a manner similar to how St. Cuthbert bars Lawful Evil clerics.

[faceroll]

The formal reason is that gods in many D&D settings derive power from worship. It benefits them to have monopolistic worship in great quantities. Why would they give a cleric, one who does miracles of their faith, power if that cleric is going to moonlight in the service of another deity?

It really depends on the deity. Boccob and Chronopesis and the other deities referred to as "the uncaring" probably don't care. It's a wonder they grant spells at all. LG deities probably don't mind sharing worshipers with other deities that have similar agendas (like smiting the wicked). Minor deities probably don't have much of a choice. Half a worshiper is better than no worshiper, right?

[JoshuaZ]

Apparently there are already such rules in other settings. This thread isn't about a rules discussion, I want to examine why people are so beholden to this idea that you have to worship only one thing to get spells from it.

I would suggest that it is cultural. Most of the people playing D&D grow up in monotheistic or henotheistic cultures. So you end up with people still thinking in terms of monolatry even when talking about polytheism.

[Drakevarg]

As another interpretation altogether, heres how it works in my campaigns;

The entire universe is basically a needlessly complicated wargame, except instead of controlling units you really can only give them suggestions. The clerics have to be monolatrous because as more or less the mouth piece of the gods, it's really inconvienient when you have to share the same microphone with the other players.

As for why they're playing this game in the first place? Basically, the same reason you play DnD. For fun.

[afroakuma]

It really depends on the deity. Boccob and Chronopesis and the other deities referred to as "the uncaring" probably don't care. It's a wonder they grant spells at all. LG deities probably don't mind sharing worshipers with other deities that have similar agendas (like smiting the wicked). Minor deities probably don't have much of a choice. Half a worshiper is better than no worshiper, right?

Ah, but the gods have portfolios, which they jealously guard. Yes, even those "Uncaring" ones, because a lack of portfolio/lack of worship is a literal death sentence for a deity. A major deity allowing slippage is allowing some of his or her portfolio to leak out of his or her hands. Minor deities can't afford "half-worshippers" for fear that their whole portfolio (which is by definition smaller) might be annexed.

[pffh]

Even in religions with huge pantheons people usually only directly worshipped one or two gods, example here in Iceland most people worshipped Thor and some also worshipped Freyr. The rare poet worshipped Odinn.

[Alleine]

Apparently there are already such rules in other settings. This thread isn't about a rules discussion, I want to examine why people are so beholden to this idea that you have to worship only one thing to get spells from it.

Because its easy. You can get what you want from one deity, and the rest won't smite you down so why even bother with them? Now maybe if you're looking to optimize and get all the right domains/powers/whatever then sure, you might want to hit up multiple gods. Or if you're looking for the flavor of worshipping multiple gods, then its great. For those of us who don't care, one works and there's no need for more.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I allow it in my campaign. It doesn't change the rules for a cleric at all, so I see no reason to disallow it.

However, to facilitate it, I have invented the Pantheon domain. (Your other domain represents the dominant aspect of a cleric's studies or pantheon.)

Pantheon Domain: A cleric with this domain has access to an entire pantheon of gods to draw spells from. Each day when the cleric prepares spells, he chooses any one domain. He can prepare and cast any of that domain's spells in his domain spell slots, until the next time he prepares spells.
This does not grant a domain's extra ability or abilities. This does not grant the ability to use spell trigger or spell completion items for temporary domain spells. A cleric with item creation feats cannot use temporary domain spells as prerequisites for creating items.

And if you do want to temporarily gain a domain's extra ability or abilities, I'd also make a feat for that.

[Foryn Gilnith]

This thread isn't about a rules discussion, I want to examine why people are so beholden to this idea that you have to worship only one thing to get spells from it.

They largely aren't so beholden IMO.
In Greyhawk, the original, it was monolatrous. Why? Who knows; ask Gygax.
In Faerun, clerics were monolatrous. This is because the deities of that setting are sort of selfish (or something, I'm not a fan of Faerun)
In Eberron, monolatrism is not required.
In homebrew settings, people (as JoshuaZ) said assume monolatrism due to their cultural background.
In a setting I was involved in creating, monolatrism was practiced most of the time, with the "deviant" cases handled by one deity that took care of all the annoying portfolio/afterlife issues. So beliefs varied.


Or if you're looking for the flavor of worshipping multiple gods, then its great.

If it's great, why isn't it covered in more detail?

[dragonfan6490]

If I remember correctly, which I may not, I think I read in Deities and Demigods that if you worship a whole pantheon, like the Greek Pantheon, you get your pick of their domains.

[Draco Ignifer]

In the 3.X rules, you can worship causes instead of specific gods. I see no reason why you couldn't serve the cause of "glory to all the gods of Good," or "the will of the Pantheon."

[Alleine]

If it's great, why isn't it covered in more detail?

I mean that for fluff purposes, worshipping multiple gods works. Its fluff, fluff is easily mutable. I don't know why you'd need fluff to be completely covered because it seems to me that if your character concept is 'worships multiple gods' then the fluff is entirely up to you. As for crunch, I can't see what you'd need aside from what Complete Divine covers unless you want pantheon worship to be strictly better than single deity worship.

As for why great things aren't covered, WotC has a great track record of not covering things people like in detail.

[Altima]

Because, in general, gods are petty, petty ***holes.

Many gods derive power from their worship (not all, but some). They use their power for their own gain and, in return, they grant their divine power to a small number of their followers, who then perform 'miracles' in order to lure even more followers.

In Faerun, for example, the campaign setting (formerly) known for hundreds of deities, many of Bhaal's Murderers were killed by Bane prior to the Time of Troubles, which resulted in Bhaal critical weakness. In another instance, High Magic was used to erase a deity's name from existance, which resulted in insta-death of said deity.

In other settings, say Greek mythology, gods' power is more or less set. These tend to be the generally worst kind as they view mortals as little more than playthings, and if said mortal placates another deity for more power than you've granted them, then, well, why both with such a greedy git?

However, this is general rule, but there are exceptions. Another FR example occured when a drow dual-worshipped both Lolth and Vhaeraun, of all deities. She managed to pull it off for a time, too. On an unrelated note, it didn't end well for said drow.

So there are instances in lore of multiple deity worship, but, well, there's a reason an Atonement spell is required when you wish to switch gods.

[Devils_Advocate]

While nothing stops an individual from revering all the gods, a cleric can only be a priest of one.
The thing is, the PHB tells us that a typical individual has a single patron deity. On the other hand, they'll show proper respect to other deities as appropriate, like by praying to Fharlanghn before setting off on a journey. So the norm isn't monolatry; more like henotheism, but maybe less exclusive.

That might not be too far off from how polytheism usually works. Wouldn't the typical person be likely to have a favorite god and/or one that she prayed to most often because aspects of her daily life fell mostly into that god's portfolio?


Or, the priest is supposed to be the hand of their god, if you will, and gods in a pantheon are likely to have different, possibly conflicting interests. It's not reasonable that one person could serve all the gods (though there are some cases where one might make an exception - a priest of Tyr and Torm, for example).
I think that this is probably the main reason. The different gods have different religions because they have different teachings. Some might join together into coalitions, but it might be more typical for them to be more loosely and/or tenuously allied.

Even strongly allied deities might have different religions under the theory that different people in different circumstances need different teachings. This seems to be the case for racial pantheons, even though most of the members are pretty much on the same team and share the same common divine realm. Still, it's kind of weird to read Greyhawk fluff about deities elevating the occasional mortal to godhood with the expectation that they'll go off and found their own separate churches.


I don't see why you couldn't have mercenary clerics who say "alright, Great Mystic One of the Far South, whose lands I journey in; grant me the powers to cross you desert and I shall reward you tenfold and serve you for a year and a day."
Ah, a freelance cleric (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/07/21/episode-579-little-miracles/).


If you were to play a cleric worshiping two gods, I'd be surprised if you didn't turn around and claim that meant you could use 4 domains at level 1, rather than 2.
Whence springs this bizarre expectation?


Seriously, if it bothers you that much, come up with a simple set of rules to allow the worship of a pantheon that won't be overpowered.
The rule exists. It's in Deities & Demigods. You get to choose two domains from the set of domains that the pantheon offers collectively, just as one would expect.


Or one might only have access to the domains that don't strongly conflict with each other (so for example, a neutral good cleric worshiping a chaotic good deity and a lawful good deity shouldn't be able to take either the Chaos or Law domains even if each of the deities has access to one).
You can only take alignment domains that match your own alignment anyway.


The formal reason is that gods in many D&D settings derive power from worship.
All the more reason to forbid the worship of enemy deities and encourage the worship of divine allies.

Like the Sovereign Host versus the Dark Six in Eberron.


It really depends on the deity. Boccob and Chronopesis and the other deities referred to as "the uncaring" probably don't care. It's a wonder they grant spells at all.
Deities automatically grant spells to devout divine spellcasters and have to consciously choose to withhold them, rather than vice versa. No, really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#grantSpells) A god could conceivably not be aware that a particular cleric of him even exists. That might even be the case for most clerics of most deities.

[AstralFire]

SHAZAM! hopefully someone gets the reference

[kieza]

In 4e, you don't have to restrict yourself to one god (although that's assumed to be the default). Even Clerics and Paladins can devote themselves to multiple gods, subject to the usual alignment restrictions. And they can qualify for multiple Divinity feats as a result. (I think a lot of DMs would ban any character that wanted to worship all gods in order to qualify for said feats, though.)

[Coidzor]

Deities automatically grant spells to devout divine spellcasters and have to consciously choose to withhold them, rather than vice versa. No, really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#grantSpells) A god could conceivably not be aware that a particular cleric of him even exists. That might even be the case for most clerics of most deities.

I think this is why this is not so much of an issue.


...All the more reason to forbid the worship of enemy deities...

You see, devotion implies certain things. Especially to the cultural consciousness of most players and dms.

At the very least, being devoted to, say, Heironeous would suggest that it was not in the character's character to go to Hextor, his immortal enemy for additional power while still drawing on and being devoted to Heironeous.

[Grumman]

Personally, I'd allow it if it would be in character for the deities in question. If someone wanted to be a cleric of Mielikki and one of the half-dozen relatives or allies she possesses (Lurue, Silvanus, Eldath and so on) or a cleric of the entire Halfling pantheon I'd fully support it. Someone trying to be a cleric of Lolth and any of the lesser drow gods is likely to get herself turned into something unpleasant.

[faceroll]

Because, in general, gods are petty, petty ***holes.

That only applies to the anthropmorphic deities, mainly faerun ones. They're just a bunch of people with super-duper powers. When you get more exotic deities, like Illiseine, Ao or Chronopesis, it doesn't really apply.

[Coidzor]

That only applies to the anthropmorphic deities, mainly faerun ones. They're just a bunch of people with super-duper powers. When you get more exotic deities, like Illiseine, Ao or Chronopesis, it doesn't really apply.

Well, yeah, except Ao doesn't empower clerics and erases himself from the memories of those who seek to worship him.

Don't remember enough about the other two to comment on it, but it seems like it'd be suspicious of them to be in the market for worship if they weren't benefiting from it somehow themselves.

Personally, I don't care, as long as the combination makes sense within the context.

[Ravens_cry]

My religious characters tend to venerate fairly broadly, at least for gods that represent some part of their alignment. For example, I played a paladin of Iomedae (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Iomedae), and an NPC bard unveiled an extraordinary mural of a butterfly, and the paladin gave praise unto Desna (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Desna), Goddess of the arts among other things, for granting this man such a wondrous inspiration and praised the artist highly, invoking this other deities name. Who cares if this specific god isn't my patron, the one who grants my powers? By representing areas I follow, they all deserve my praise and worship. Unless the god specifically has it part of their dogma that they don't play well with others, that is how I play it, unless I wish to play otherwise of course.