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rockdeworld
2010-02-07, 05:56 PM
I'm creating a BBEG for a core/srd only campaign, and the idea is something like Shneeky's Joker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158), but on a much larger scale.

This guy is the leader of the bard's guild, and is working to (a) take over the world, (b) something else, (c) some combination of the two.

A bit of explanation beforehand: the character did, in this order
1. Became level 20
2. Became a lich
3. Aged to venerable from adult
in order to gain stat bonuses by RAW. Re-writing him as a level 16 adult character wouldn't change too much (if I've misinterpreted something and this isn't actually legal by RAW), but it would take away some of his awesomeness.

Here's what I've got so far:
Half-Elf Lich Bard 20 (ECL 24)

Starting Stats:
Str 10 (-3 Venerable Negated by being undead)
Dex 12 (-3 Venerable Negated by being undead)
Con 8 (-3 Venerable Negated by being undead)
Int 11 +3 Venerable + 2 lich
Wis 8 +3 Venerable +2 lich
Cha 18 +3 Venerable +2 lich +5 Levels +5 Tome +6 Cloak of Charisma

Skill ranks:
Bluff 23
Concentration 13
Diplomacy 23
Disguise 10
Gather Information 23
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) 6
Perform (Oratory) 23
Sense Motive 6
UMD 11

Feats:
1: Negotiator
3: Skill Focus: Diplomacy
6: Leadership
9: Eschew Materials
12: Extend Spell
15: Craft Wondrous Item
18: Skill Focus: Perform

Spells:
0
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Mage Hand
Ghost Sound
Message
Summon Instrument
1
Charm Person
Grease
Silent Image
Undetectable Alignment
Feather Fall

Items:
+5 Tome of Leadership and Influence (137,500 gp, used)
+6 Cloak of Charisma (36,000 gp)
Circlet of Persuasion (4,500 gp) (+3 competence to charisma checks - already factored into skills)

Total Relevant Skill modifiers:
Diplomacy +53
Perform +43

I figured a Level 20 Wizard cohort would be a perfect companion for this guy. What I'd like to know is:
1. How can a character go about getting a +30 competence Diplomacy skill item, +10 insight Diplomacy skill item, or a +10 luck Diplomacy skill item (in core)?
2. What other items and spells should I choose?
3. How challenging does this type of enemy sound? Think of him as the guy who controls everything from behind the scenes, convincing people to do whatever he wants done.

faceroll
2010-02-07, 06:03 PM
Diplomancy doesn't do anything for an NPC vs. PC interaction. I'd pimp Bluff, personally.

I am uncertain of why you want so much diplomacy on this guy, especially if you're playing with RAW, as this might encourage your players to also attempt to break the rules.

Anyway, if you're looking for more sources of +social skills, Glibness gives you +30 on your bluff checks (untyped bonus), Improvisation (spell compendium) gives you +1/2 your character level to whatever skills you want, Voice of the Dragon (SpC) gives you a +10 enhancement bonus to bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate checks. A dip in Warlock gets you Beguiling Influence, which gives you +6 to intimidate, diplomacy, and bluff.


core/srd only

/faceplam

ZombieGenesis
2010-02-07, 06:06 PM
A lich... bard? First time I've ever heard one of those. An undead musician can mean only one thing- demonic guitar. You know you want to make it happen.

absolmorph
2010-02-07, 06:20 PM
A lich... bard? First time I've ever heard one of those. An undead musician can mean only one thing- demonic guitar. You know you want to make it happen.
This must be done.

Also, the Bluff is up to +37. Since this effects interaction with the PCs, you may want to give him Persuasive (+2) and Skill Focus (+3), moving Bluff up to +42 and Diplomacy down to +48. By the rules of Diplomacy, they can still move people from being majorly hostile to helpful on anything but a 1.

And they can also, for example, reliably convince most people that they're actually a normal human cursed to become a skeleton, and that they need [Macguffin] to rid themselves of the curse, and if the person helps them, they'll be granted immortality. Yes, the rules let you do this. That's assuming the person has less than a +12 on their Sense Motive modifier. If they have more, then they have a chance of noticing the bluff.
You can also dabble a bit into Epic Diplomacy and use the Fanatic attitude. It only requires a 50 from the most helpful attitude, which is almost guaranteed.

CTLC
2010-02-07, 06:42 PM
wow, his starting stats are baaaad. hum.

anywho, he needs a hat of disguise, so he doesnt appear to be a lich. Looking like the undead thing you are has to be a penalty.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-07, 06:47 PM
Do note: He cannot benefit from his own Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness abilities. Undead as a whole are immune to Morale effects. Because this is a Core-only game, you don't have access to one of the two effects that override this.

Beorn080
2010-02-07, 07:29 PM
A horn of valhalla would provide a nice emergency screen if he needs to run, and you could flavor the summoned barbarians to be skeletons with only a few minor changes to keep with his undeadness, mostly being able to be turned.

I'm not sure how, but working an apparatus of the crab in there could be great. Perhaps riding it into battle while playing his instrument would be an interesting twist on having a mount.

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-07, 07:53 PM
I'm creating a BBEG for a core/srd only (a) take over the world,
OF COURSE!

but seriously, he has to have a better motivation than that. At least tell us WHY he wants to take over the world.

Os1ris09
2010-02-07, 08:07 PM
I personally think you should get sublime chord in there somewhere so that he has some spells to buff his undead minions and his other humaniod minions. Like for example take the entire vampire spawn army with skeletons and make then have bulls strength and other minor buffs. Just make sure to have his bard level up so that his song isn't totally useless. Otherwise I will help as much as I can with other stuff with this BBEG because I want to see this guy work.

As far as epic use the rules in the DMG to make an item that gives him those "diplomacy" buffs and have it in the story line of "he reached lvl 20 with these powerful 'artifacts' and equipment." Honestly I would also get him some type of armor because if the Good guys can beat this guy they deserve more than the equips he has on him. Give him a lair and have his phylactery their and give the PC's bread crumbs so that they have to beat him twice to get his treasure and finish him off.

As far as challenging I think I may bring this guy into my campaign and modify him slightly to fit my adventure slightly better. I mean this guy can be challenging if you up his bluff more than his diplomacy. I mean keep dip up there so that he can use it to "counter-act" the PC's when they go to bargain. And also get him a hat of disguise or up his BLUFF really high so he can pull of something crazy.

I hope this helps and I hope that this guy gives the PC's a challenge. :)

Asheram
2010-02-07, 08:13 PM
A lich... bard? First time I've ever heard one of those. An undead musician can mean only one thing- demonic guitar. You know you want to make it happen.

And lots of death metal.

Rainbownaga
2010-02-07, 08:40 PM
How is the +3 dex and str penalty negated by being undead? Surely it doesn't count as damage or drain, and even if undead are immune, it wouldn't be fixed retroactively, would it?

Edit: I see he aged after becoming a lich. Not sure that this fixes anything, and his con should be -. Also, I didn't know liches could even age.

Randel
2010-02-07, 10:25 PM
you need a lyre of building. It's a rule. all evil undead bards need a lyre of building.

Get enough ranks in perform (stringed instruments) to always make the skill check and you can literally change the world to your whim.

Need to clearcut a forest to let your army through? Lyre of building.
need to build a new base of operations after the previous one exploded? Lyre of building.

Want to trick the general populace into thinking you're a good guy by disguising yourself as Mr. Rogers and building ten fully furnished orphanages and a homeless shelter out of old wood? Lyre of building!

May need to add some skill into craft and architecture and stuff... but if you're going for a quirky Tim Burtonesqe look then you could probably make messed up off-kilter buildings by using less skill points (plus, easier to make your creations self-destruct if need be later since you don't build them to be structurally sound in the first place).


Maybe change the lyre into a guitar or some other thing... though since he's got tons of skill points put into oratory you could give him a Voice of Building or some similar magic item that uses oratory instead of stringed instruments.


Just keep in mind that lyres of building have that recharge between uses, but theoretically he could just constantly play it forever without resting and he could do so for weeks while rebuilding the world around him. Since every 30 minutes of playing gives you the equivelent of a hundred humans working for 3 days... he could probably use this sucker to create an escape route by digging through the side of a mountain!

Its also got the ability to make structures around it invincible for 30 minutes a day which is a plus.

Give him a few days head start ahead of the heroes and he could build an entire city or town out of local materials and even have a huge sign out front that says "Welcome to Bardoplolis! Population: Your Dooom!" and he could grab up all the disenfranchised monstrous humanoids he wants by offering them room and board in his awesome new town he whipped up like ten hours ago (and its growing by the minute!).



So yeah, Lyre of Building or equivalent are a must for undead people with the skills to use them. Even if he only uses it at night when those lazy meatbags are trying to sleep... that's still eight hours of jammin time or the equivalent of 100 humans working for 48 days straight. So he can literally make his own Evil Lair overnight.

absolmorph
2010-02-07, 10:35 PM
He only needs a +3 bonus to Preform (String Instruments) to guarantee the DC 18 check.
Drop a couple ranks of Gather Information, perhaps?
Building a new lair overnight is pretty awesome.

Randel
2010-02-08, 12:56 AM
Here's an idea: Suppose he's like a celebirty? An epic talanted music artist who due to being a Lich is pretty much indestructible and due to his ability to make whole cities in a week then he can cause more happiness than a regular singer could?

Imagine if Elvis Presley was a Lich, and he could teleport into a third world country in Africa or South America or something, then he could spend three days playing his guitar and build roads and houses and factories and farms with aquducts and a whole darn city... and then built a big stadium where people from all over could come and listen to EPIC LEVEL SINGING telling them to keep their heads up and enjoy their new lives. And then the president of that third world country can come in and organize the people to live in their new freshly constructed city.

Okay, now remember that he's an undead abomination of nature who is so mind-bogglingly charismatic that its pretty much impossible to say no to him and his brain is filled with songs and epic tales of heroes past and stuff. He's evil, maybe not because he activly wants to ruin peoples days, but he can pretty much change reality to his will and change peoples minds just by talking to them.

The average Joe loves him because he's an awesome singer, impoverished people love him because he can build cities and farms in a day for them to live and work in, aspiring businessmen love him because he can build places for them to start their businesses in, politicians like him because if they have a problem they can generally call him and he just makes it go away by building stuff or singing.

Economists hate him because he messes up economies by building stuff, landowners hate him because he sometimes 'accidentally' shows up somewhere and builds stuff on it without bothering to ask who owns it (and if they confront him he just tells them not to worry about it and their brain gets clobbered by Epic Diplomacy and his rabid fans just go with the flow), environmentalists hate him because he can rip up whole forests overnight and turn them into shopping districts before they have a chance to figure out how that would affect the environment or form any sort of plan or even see if people need a shopping district in the middle of the Amazon Rain-forest.

Keep in mind that he's a freakin undead Lich. His brain no longer functions on the rules of a normal person, he has no need to sleep or eat and if he accidentally sets off a volcano while trying to set up a cool pyrotechnics display for his next concert then at worse his stuff will be disintegrated and he'll reform next to his phylactery. He's an immortal celebrity with no need to sleep, who's too insane to understand (or care) how much damage he sometimes causes to people, and is so undeniably charismatic that virtually nobody can say no to him. Also, while some celebrities might overdose on drugs, drink themselves to death, or just spend their time sleeping with their fans... he's a Lich and can't do any of that! He is incapable of vices of the flesh so he might spend hours, days, or months reading books or researching old music or stories. And then he has the resources to make his own stories on a world-wide scale.

He doubtlessly has whole teams of people helping him out. His wizard cohort who can teleport him wherever he needs, teams of architects and designers who tell him how to structurally make all the buildings and stuff he wants (why waste skill points on architecture when he makes enough money to hire architects to give him masterwork building designs... that is if the experts aren't fans of his work and are doing it all free of charge for him). He's got all sorts of people gravitating towards him, begging for the riches and publicity that they can get by being near him. He's the ultimate villain with good publicity.


The problem is that no matter how charismatic he is, his actions cause damage to the world even unintentionally. At best he's a spoiled rotten chaotic neutral sort of guy (maybe even chaotic good but who doesn't think about any negative repercussions for his actions) at worse he's all-out chaotic evil because he may put his own happiness or ideals above the lives of others... and alot of people would go along with him without thinking it over.

If he decides to hold a concert at a sacred temple somewhere (possibly during a sacred ceremony) and the locals want to leave then he'll likely force the issue (and he's got the power to do it), if paladins start killing off a bunch of goblins or drow that he likes (those drow may be murderers and killers and such but they know how to play good music! And all those exotic dark elf dancers... rrrawr!) then he could turn against the paladins in a heartbeat and bring all sorts of groups against them.

He's chaotic and tends to go with what he thinks is fun, his Wizard friend might have an agenda and may be manipulating him for some grander scheme.

In fact, his chaoticness may make him even more dangerous than most Bad Guys since while he may be part of some grand plan to take over the world or rid it of paladins (and those other annoying people who say that bards are useless, or that half-elves are unnatural, or that Liches are an abomination, or that neophilia is a sin, or that you shouldn't clear-cut whole sections of elven woodland to make houses for homeless orcs...) then he's still perfectly happy to go out and take part in fundraisers to help the hungry or to build things for people.

Heck, he'll probably make rally songs for both sides in a conflict if he feels like it... after all, war songs are the best songs and if both sides have great songs than the war is all that much better, right?

Xzeno
2010-02-08, 01:06 AM
Wait, isn't CL 11 required for lich? Did I miss something?

absolmorph
2010-02-08, 01:20 AM
Wait, isn't CL 11 required for lich? Did I miss something?
He became a lich at level 20.
Bards' caster level is equal to their class level.

rockdeworld
2010-02-08, 06:50 PM
wow, his starting stats are baaaad. hum.
That's L20 charisma optimization on 25 point buy. I made this guy to be a talker, not a fighter. I think it makes sense for mental stats to increase despite being undead, because they're mental related, not physical.

I should note that the Diplomacy isn't for the PC's, it's for everyone else. It is worth it to get +100 though when I could just make it +60? Either way it takes 2 rounds of diplomacy (talking quickly at a -10 penalty) to make an enemy into a fanatic.

Since Inspire Courage cheese and most bard PrC's aren't available in core, I decided to optimize charisma. I did think to use a hat of disguise (or similar - he's obviously not done being made yet), but the other item suggestions are interesting. Btw, the circlet of persuasion gives him the extra +3 to make untrained perform checks at +17.

Any suggestions for spells (besides False Vision, which I plan to include)?

Merk
2010-02-09, 07:33 AM
Phantom Steed. So you have an undead bard riding a flying ghost horse.

TengYt
2010-02-09, 07:37 AM
Y'know, for NPCs/Villains, you don't really have to follow pointbuy rules unless you really really want to. When I make BBEGs, I tend to give them pimped stats at Level 1, as if I rolled really well or something.

Analytica
2010-02-09, 11:11 AM
I second that awesome bard lich celebrity idea. Somehow, it makes me think of Velvet Goldmine and David Bowie. :smallredface:

Forever Curious
2010-02-09, 11:21 AM
Here's an idea: Suppose he's like a celebirty? An epic talanted music artist who due to being a Lich is pretty much indestructible and due to his ability to make whole cities in a week then he can cause more happiness than a regular singer could?

Imagine if Elvis Presley was a Lich, and he could teleport into a third world country in Africa or South America or something, then he could spend three days playing his guitar and build roads and houses and factories and farms with aquducts and a whole darn city... and then built a big stadium where people from all over could come and listen to EPIC LEVEL SINGING telling them to keep their heads up and enjoy their new lives. And then the president of that third world country can come in and organize the people to live in their new freshly constructed city.

Okay, now remember that he's an undead abomination of nature who is so mind-bogglingly charismatic that its pretty much impossible to say no to him and his brain is filled with songs and epic tales of heroes past and stuff. He's evil, maybe not because he activly wants to ruin peoples days, but he can pretty much change reality to his will and change peoples minds just by talking to them.

The average Joe loves him because he's an awesome singer, impoverished people love him because he can build cities and farms in a day for them to live and work in, aspiring businessmen love him because he can build places for them to start their businesses in, politicians like him because if they have a problem they can generally call him and he just makes it go away by building stuff or singing.

Economists hate him because he messes up economies by building stuff, landowners hate him because he sometimes 'accidentally' shows up somewhere and builds stuff on it without bothering to ask who owns it (and if they confront him he just tells them not to worry about it and their brain gets clobbered by Epic Diplomacy and his rabid fans just go with the flow), environmentalists hate him because he can rip up whole forests overnight and turn them into shopping districts before they have a chance to figure out how that would affect the environment or form any sort of plan or even see if people need a shopping district in the middle of the Amazon Rain-forest.

Keep in mind that he's a freakin undead Lich. His brain no longer functions on the rules of a normal person, he has no need to sleep or eat and if he accidentally sets off a volcano while trying to set up a cool pyrotechnics display for his next concert then at worse his stuff will be disintegrated and he'll reform next to his phylactery. He's an immortal celebrity with no need to sleep, who's too insane to understand (or care) how much damage he sometimes causes to people, and is so undeniably charismatic that virtually nobody can say no to him. Also, while some celebrities might overdose on drugs, drink themselves to death, or just spend their time sleeping with their fans... he's a Lich and can't do any of that! He is incapable of vices of the flesh so he might spend hours, days, or months reading books or researching old music or stories. And then he has the resources to make his own stories on a world-wide scale.

He doubtlessly has whole teams of people helping him out. His wizard cohort who can teleport him wherever he needs, teams of architects and designers who tell him how to structurally make all the buildings and stuff he wants (why waste skill points on architecture when he makes enough money to hire architects to give him masterwork building designs... that is if the experts aren't fans of his work and are doing it all free of charge for him). He's got all sorts of people gravitating towards him, begging for the riches and publicity that they can get by being near him. He's the ultimate villain with good publicity.


The problem is that no matter how charismatic he is, his actions cause damage to the world even unintentionally. At best he's a spoiled rotten chaotic neutral sort of guy (maybe even chaotic good but who doesn't think about any negative repercussions for his actions) at worse he's all-out chaotic evil because he may put his own happiness or ideals above the lives of others... and alot of people would go along with him without thinking it over.

If he decides to hold a concert at a sacred temple somewhere (possibly during a sacred ceremony) and the locals want to leave then he'll likely force the issue (and he's got the power to do it), if paladins start killing off a bunch of goblins or drow that he likes (those drow may be murderers and killers and such but they know how to play good music! And all those exotic dark elf dancers... rrrawr!) then he could turn against the paladins in a heartbeat and bring all sorts of groups against them.

He's chaotic and tends to go with what he thinks is fun, his Wizard friend might have an agenda and may be manipulating him for some grander scheme.

In fact, his chaoticness may make him even more dangerous than most Bad Guys since while he may be part of some grand plan to take over the world or rid it of paladins (and those other annoying people who say that bards are useless, or that half-elves are unnatural, or that Liches are an abomination, or that neophilia is a sin, or that you shouldn't clear-cut whole sections of elven woodland to make houses for homeless orcs...) then he's still perfectly happy to go out and take part in fundraisers to help the hungry or to build things for people.

Heck, he'll probably make rally songs for both sides in a conflict if he feels like it... after all, war songs are the best songs and if both sides have great songs than the war is all that much better, right?

...this is turning into the most epic villain I've ever seen created. I'm in awe...

Thrawn183
2010-02-09, 01:08 PM
I'd love it if he took the party and sent foes after them just so that he could have material for his next epic poem or whatever.

Why is he trying to destroy the world? Because he needs someone else to try and save it!

Beorn080
2010-02-09, 04:55 PM
I'm curious, does the party have ANY musical ability at all? Cause I'm now envisioning them going on tour with this bardic lich, or would it be lichy bard? Where ever they go, things go horribly wrong, and its always tangentially the lich's fault.

kladams707
2010-02-09, 06:50 PM
Great, you said core only, so now all I can think of is non core stuff.

"Why is he trying to destroy the world? Because he needs someone else to try and save it!"

WEll he is bard, maybe he just likes the attention such a goal gets.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-10, 02:46 PM
I think it makes sense for mental stats to increase despite being undead, because they're mental related, not physical.
Mental stat increases for aging don't make sense in the first place. If you want to make older people more experienced and skilled, that's properly done by giving them more levels.

Venerable characters take a total -6 to their physical stats, incidentally.

Anyway, the undead don't gain mental stat bonuses from aging. Undeath instills a sort of mental inflexibility, preserving the mind in some ways just as it does the body. This leads to some undead seeming insane because they can't adapt to circumstances greatly different from when they were alive. Libris Mortis spells this out.


Y'know, for NPCs/Villains, you don't really have to follow pointbuy rules unless you really really want to. When I make BBEGs, I tend to give them pimped stats at Level 1, as if I rolled really well or something.
A DM doesn't have to follow any rules that he doesn't want to. But working within the rules can be an interesting exercise. Might as well save fiat for when it's needed.

Some see it as desirable for a creature not to be arbitrarily more powerful than another creature of the same CR and/or ECL, and favor point buy over rolling for that reason.

Using a considerably higher point buy might be appropriate in some cases, but then so would raising the CR/LA by 1 to reflect the creature's above-average power.

I get that WotC did this thing where they under-CRed specific monsters, like dragons and mindflayers, that they wanted to be memorable, tough opponents. But having some fights be especially tough doesn't require making a mockery of challenge ratings. You can just throw designated elite opponents at the party when their CR is still a bit above the party's level. No need to shortchange the players on XP.

faceroll
2010-02-10, 03:03 PM
Using a considerably higher point buy might be appropriate in some cases, but then so would raising the CR/LA by 1 to reflect the creature's above-average power.

If the players are using a lot of pimped out save-or-something-bad-happens effects, I think using elite array or even 32 pb on important-er monsters is in order.

rockdeworld
2010-02-16, 10:07 PM
Elite array is 25 pb.

@Devil's Advocate: I didn't know that about being undead, having never read Libris Mortis myself.

Should I use 16 Cha instead of 18, to allow for more combat ability?

Also, no other suggestion for 6th, 5th, etc. level spells?

Raging Gene Ray
2010-02-16, 10:16 PM
Also, no other suggestion for 6th, 5th, etc. level spells?

Core only? I'd go with Find the Path and Greater Scrying, to best keep tabs on everyone in the world and go after what they try to protect. And Charm Monster, Mass to give yourself some temporary allies.

For 5th level, Shadow Walk is good, it's the closest thing to Teleport bards get without dipping into Sublime Chord. Mind Fog would be good during a concert; it seems like a harmless bit of theatrics, creating a Fog Cloud, but in reality you're just softening up the high level nobles in the front row for a Charm or Dominate spell. And Greater Dispel Magic. It keeps enemy spellcasters away while your Wizard cohort focuses on other things.

Glibness is core, so you should have it. Also, Confusion might be a good 3rd level spell for when Charming your enemies won't work.

Apropos
2010-02-16, 10:49 PM
Awesome bardic lich stuff

I'm stealing this.