PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Rituals, useless? I think not



falconflicker
2010-02-07, 09:27 PM
(AKA (Ab)Using Rituals for Fun and Profit!)

At one point in our group's D&D campaign, we found ourselves in part of a red dragon's lair, woefully underleveled (at least to fight a full grown dragon, which was thankfully absent). We quickly discovered that the place was trapped to the hells and back again, making it very difficult to reach the nest on the other side of the room, which held the plot item we were looking for. Said item is also about 600 pounds of solid gold, which meant getting it out was no simple task. So, what's a six-man band of 5th-level adventurers to do?

Bust out the rituals.

First, the cleric cast Unseen Servant, and directed it around the room, throwing coins onto the traps to trigger them and see what they do/how lethal they were (and where they were for that matter). We determined the best course was to use the wizard's Tenser's Floating Disk ritual to bypass the pressure-sensitive traps and reached the other side without incident.

Next, the nest had a spike trap that we had to bypass as well to get to the plot item. Remember: 600 lb orb of gold. Someone (or two) would have to get in there to get it out. Using the disk to again bypass the spikes, we sent the two strongest members into the nest (which had two hatchlings hiding within) to load the orb onto the disk and then GTFO. The Servant, meanwhile, constructed a ramp leading out to a hole in the ceiling that lead out of the cave (while grabbing everything of value that it could).

Colmarr
2010-02-07, 09:30 PM
In before anyone tells you that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Edit: But to be more constructive, I don't think anyone would argue that every single ritual in 4e is useless or that there will never be a moment that they come in very handy.

The consensus appears to be that there were a number of decisions made by WotC (casting time being the primary one) that severely limits the usefulness of rituals as a whole.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-07, 09:34 PM
My wizard routinely uses phantom steed and linked portal. Very good spells for getting around in the campaign I'm playing in. Our party's used hand of fate and endure elements on occasion too.

Edit to above post: I'd have to agree wizard's decisions have limited a number of rituals - for example Arcane Lock. I'll never cast it. If I need a door locked I need it locked in a few rounds, not ten minutes. I'm better off finding something to barricade the door with.

TheOOB
2010-02-07, 09:35 PM
Neither of those are how rituals helped you in a fight, which, lets face it, is what D&D(and 4e especially) is about. Sure they where useful in isolated circumstances, but with rare exception, rituals are not worth the time nor money.

The DM guide is pretty specific about how much wealth you are supposed to give your players, and game balance assumes you have a certain amount of magic items(namely neck slot, armor, and weapons). by spending gold, a limited quantity, on a small temporary boon that in no way relates to combat, you have weakened your characters. Even potions are not as good this edition, but at least they help you survive a fight.

In any case, until rituals cost something other than gold, they will be useless.

Swordgleam
2010-02-07, 09:45 PM
Neither of those are how rituals helped you in a fight, which, lets face it, is what D&D(and 4e especially) is about.

That's the opposite of true. 4e D&D has more rules governing combat than governing non-combat situations, but that has nothing to do with the balance between those situations in play. And, as has been often stated, the entire point of rituals in 4e is that they're non-combat. Which is why the minimum casting time is 10 minutes.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-07, 10:13 PM
I think it really depends on your DM. How they run the game has a big impact on how useful rituals can be. Mine generally hands out more treasure than the recommended amount in the DMG (plus most of it comes through my hands since I do about 75% of the party's enchanting) so I don't feel too bad about dropping a few hundred gold on rituals each level to make life more convienent for my party.

Linked portal and phantom steed can help with fights to. In the case of the former, it has bypassed difficult encounters that may have killed the party (once was a green dragons that we probably would have been fine for, the other time was an entire army that certainly would have killed us). Phantom steed can let you get to places you normally couldn't reach, plus allow you to make an airborn attack against creatures with less range than you or for hit and run attacks.

TheOOB
2010-02-07, 10:30 PM
That's the opposite of true. 4e D&D has more rules governing combat than governing non-combat situations, but that has nothing to do with the balance between those situations in play. And, as has been often stated, the entire point of rituals in 4e is that they're non-combat. Which is why the minimum casting time is 10 minutes.

Yes, but gold is a resource your character uses for combat, so by using rituals you are hindering your combat ability, which doesn't really fly. D&D is, was, and will always be a small group war game with roleplaying elements. From it's beginnings as a chainmail spinoff, to it's current iteration where grids and squares are part of the mechanics, the game had always retained it's war game roots.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with rituals being out of combat, what I am saying is that rituals negatively impacting your combat ability, by draining a limited resource that is critical for your combat effectiveness, is the primary reason why rituals are near useless.

In another gaming system(such as anything white wolf makes), making a character who focuses on out of combat pursuits at the expense of combat is perfect ally viable, but in D&D virtually everything about your character is about how well you fight, and no being able to afford that +3 wand you need to be able to hit enemies in combat because you cast tenser's floating disk too many times really sucks.

AgentPaper
2010-02-07, 10:38 PM
I have to wonder, what would happen if you made rituals cost nothing and reduced the cast time to 1 minute? Of course, some spells would probably need to cost gold and/or take more time to cast, but in general, something like Knock won't make the rogue cry when it takes the wizard a full minute to unlock something when he can do it in 6 seconds.

Swordgleam
2010-02-07, 11:13 PM
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with rituals being out of combat, what I am saying is that rituals negatively impacting your combat ability, by draining a limited resource that is critical for your combat effectiveness, is the primary reason why rituals are near useless.


The pricing is something a lot of people have issues with. Neuroglyph had a good article about it recently: http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=1255

I just really don't think "requires some tweaking in a particular aspect to be a mechanically good choice" equals "near useless." Rituals are a great idea that wasn't implemented perfectly. A little fixing makes them very good, and a few extra books make them awesome.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-07, 11:45 PM
I have to wonder, what would happen if you made rituals cost nothing and reduced the cast time to 1 minute? Of course, some spells would probably need to cost gold and/or take more time to cast, but in general, something like Knock won't make the rogue cry when it takes the wizard a full minute to unlock something when he can do it in 6 seconds.
Or three rounds (with some minor cost) but disrupted at the merest shove. Leave the really important meta-game rituals at their usual 10 minute casting time (i.e. Raise Dead).

At any rate, it seems like you can split the Ritual cost amongst the party, but that really makes magic a group decision rather than a thing that a caster can throw off just for kicks.

Colmarr
2010-02-08, 01:08 AM
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with rituals being out of combat, what I am saying is that rituals negatively impacting your combat ability, by draining a limited resource that is critical for your combat effectiveness, is the primary reason why rituals are near useless.

While I agree with the general thrust of your concern, I think you overstate it.

PCs get 4 magic items per 5 levels, enough to keep up with the big 3 (weapon/implement, neck and armour) and have 1 left over. On top of that they get an amount of gold that can be used on additional items or something else.

Spending that gold on rituals will not* cripple a character, because the game rules as presented ensure that the PC will get the 3 items it needs per 5 levels to keep up with the combat math. The character might miss out on some minor abilities, but it's nothing to worry about.

* There might be some exceptions, such as Paladin/Wizards (who require weapon, implement, holy symbol, armour and neck every 5 levels and will struggle to keep up if they spend gold anywhere else).

TheOOB
2010-02-08, 02:07 AM
I agree that (most) ritual costs are not crippling to (most) classes (gods forbid you are playing a two-weapon ranger multiclassed to wizard), but the sheer fact that the vast majority of rituals shouldn't cost gold when the book wants you to give out a strictly limited amount. Heck the DM can't even give the players ritual gold because ritual components(especially residium) are basically money at high levels.

The fact is, in 9.9 out of 10 cases, you can find something better to spend the gold on then that ritual. The price to use a ritual once may not seem like much, but the cost to use it repeatedly whenever it would be useful really adds up, especially when added to the cost of the ritual itself. Not to mention the time it takes the use the ritual, 10 minutes is a long time, and many rituals(silence, sending, water walks, ect) may well be useless by the time you can finish the ritual. Why can't they take the same amount of time as a short rest...heck why can't they be cast as part of a short rest?


The pricing is something a lot of people have issues with. Neuroglyph had a good article about it recently: http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/?p=1255

I just really don't think "requires some tweaking in a particular aspect to be a mechanically good choice" equals "near useless." Rituals are a great idea that wasn't implemented perfectly. A little fixing makes them very good, and a few extra books make them awesome.

I think it's more "Requires a complete overhaul" than requires some tweaking, and really that does equate to "near useless". I'm not saying that rituals can't be fixed(and the article you mentioned doesn't fix them at all, it offers one system that softens the blow a little, and another that is arguably worse with no real rules support), but what is written in the book is the only thing we on the board are assured to have in common. Just because one person found a fix, doesn't mean the rest of us have.

I did work on a fix at one time, but the project was too much work considering how busy I am, in it I gave everyone with ritual casting a number of "ritual charges" equal to their level, and was giving most rituals a cost between 1 and 5 charges, with the ability to convert healing surges to more charges in a day if you really wanted to(possibly even potions to give a better exchange rate). Some rituals still had GP costs, but most didn't.

I also reduced time, rituals had times of short(10 actions/1 minute), rest(usable during a short rest), and long(10 minutes+). Most rituals where either short or rest.

Decoy Lockbox
2010-02-08, 02:20 AM
I have to wonder, what would happen if you made rituals cost nothing and reduced the cast time to 1 minute? Of course, some spells would probably need to cost gold and/or take more time to cast, but in general, something like Knock won't make the rogue cry when it takes the wizard a full minute to unlock something when he can do it in 6 seconds.

I've instituted the following houserules in my game:

1) Rituals do not have component costs

2) All rituals with casting time of one hour or less take 1 minute (10 rounds) to cast. Rituals with casting time greater than one hour keep their printed casting times.

3) Characters with the ritual caster feat get a number of "ritual points" equal to 3/2 * the character's level, rounded up. For example, a level 1 wizard would have 2 ritual points, a level 13 druid would have 20 ritual points, a level 25 invoker would have 38 ritual points, etc.

4) Casting a ritual costs a number of ritual points equal to, surprise surprise, the level of the ritual.

Certain rituals keep their component costs on a case for case basis, for example, Raise Dead. Well, Raise Dead is banned in my campaign (I feel that commonplace resurrection cheapens the narrative of death), but for games that allow it the component cost seems fine.

Using this system allows characters to make full use of the rituals they know. Characters can only really cast their higher level rituals once/day, and then have plenty of room for their lower level ones. Using this houserule almost makes it feel like ritual casters are 3.5 edition psions who chose to only learn utility spells.

I'm sure theres room for massive abuse under this system, but so far the worst my group has thought up was a hovercraft that was supported by hundreds of Tenser's floating disks, with the mage who created them sitting in a pilots chair (think Spelljammer).

Kurald Galain
2010-02-08, 03:43 AM
We determined the best course was to use the wizard's Tenser's Floating Disk ritual to bypass the pressure-sensitive traps and reached the other side without incident.
Well, Tenser's Floating Disk is generally known as one of the few low-level rituals that's worth it, so I'm not surprised you find it useful.


In any case, until rituals cost something other than gold, they will be useless.
While it's true that most rituals are overcosted, people often overlook that there's more problems with rituals than just the GP cost. The second problem is the casting time; many things that are useful in theory are markedly less useful if they take ten minutes of chanting. The third problem is restrictions; several rituals have so many restrictions on them that they don't actually do anything any more.

The best houserule for rituals, I think, is to forget the rules text and instead play them according to their flavor text. In many cases, the two don't match at all, and the flavor text is generally what you want from the ritual.

Leolo
2010-02-08, 07:38 AM
There already have been discussions about the usefullness of rituals.

And there are far better rituals than Tensers Floating disc. From my point of view there is also often overlooked that Rituals can actively save you money.

For example the Item Rituals. You could get 1/5 of the items worth...or the full value. What do you want? Without rituals you do not have the choice.

Also there are good preparation rituals that prevent you from spending ressources (or characters) when someone attacks your group.

The ten minutes casting time? Frankly the day has 24 Hours, and you fight about 3-4 fights per day. There is enough time for it.

And many rituals have a very long duration. Spending 10 Minutes to travel multiple times as fast than normal, fly or teleport the whole way? There is nothing in it that makes this a bad deal.

Having magical watches is better than having your comrades watching the scene, because they will have better senses, more eyes and do not need to sleep. Pay a small amount of money to save 2 hours of sleeping time may be worth the price if you expect some monsters to come and eat you.

And we do not have to talk about the use of a ritual that let you understand every language in the world. Or Rituals that let you breathe water, fly or talk to the dead.

And that is only heroic tier - you could also move mountains.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-08, 07:58 AM
There already have been discussions about the usefullness of rituals.
Yes. However, it seems that everything you mention here is about the fluff of the rituals, and not about the actual rules. Like I said, the best houserule for rituals is to ignore their rules and play them by the fluff.

For instance, by RAW, Disenchant Magic Item gives you 20% of the value, just like selling the item does; and by the rules, the Eye Of Alarm ritual cannot hear anything, which makes it worse than setting a watch.

All rituals have flavor text that make them seem useful. Not all of them actually do what the flavor text says they do.

Leolo
2010-02-08, 08:26 AM
Yes. However, it seems that everything you mention here is about the fluff of the rituals, and not about the actual rules.


No i do not.

Although of course Rituals have flaws they also have very good mechanic benefits.

For example the eye of alarm may have tremorsense later and identify even invisible attackers.

Disenchant magic item gaves you only 20% (not bad in any way, because it saves you the time to visit the next store) - Transfer enchantment gaves you the full value as a new item enchantment. And things like comprehend languages or water walk do exactly what the fluff says.

It is not only that the fluff of rituals is good - there are also very good applications of them.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-08, 08:45 AM
Although of course Rituals have flaws they also have very good mechanic benefits.
See, here's the thing: if people would claim that all rituals are overpriced or underpowered, then you need only a single example to prove them wrong. However, people aren't claiming that. People claim that most rituals are overpriced or underpowered; so the fact that you can find two or three that aren't, doesn't contradict that claim at all.

The problem with Eye of Alarm is that you don't need it to find invisible attackers: anyone can find those, it's a simple matter of rolling perception against their stealth. Note that being invisible doesn't in fact give bonuses to stealth.

The problem with Comperehend Language is the casting time. If, as the fluff suggests, you use it on "the guttural language of the creatures before you", then you first need to find a way to stall those creatures for ten minutes while you chant away. That means that somebody will likely be using Bluff or Diplomacy checks to improvise some sort of sign language, and doing so obviates the need for the ritual.

The problem with Water Walk is that it affects only one creature. Because of its short duration, it's not really feasible to have your entire party walking on water. Pretty much any situation that can be solved by having one person walk on water, can be solved more easily through making swim checks.

Of course, a competent DM will bypass the restrictions on the above three examples, thus playing them by their fluff text instead of their rules, and that's exactly my point.

Leolo
2010-02-08, 09:07 AM
See, here's the thing: if people would claim that all rituals are overpriced or underpowered, then you need only a single example to prove them wrong. However, people aren't claiming that. People claim that most rituals are overpriced or underpowered; so the fact that you can find two or three that aren't, doesn't contradict that claim at all.


Sure, but it helps. I mean...if you gave me no examples of overprized underpowered rituals, and i gave you five examples of rituals that are not overprized and underpowered it helps to find out what might be more true.

What i do like to say is that rituals are often situational. It is powerfull to see through the wall and count how many guards are there. But it is situational. A good other example are your comments on comprehend languages or water walk.



The problem with Comperehend Language is the casting time. If, as the fluff suggests, you use it on "the guttural language of the creatures before you", then you first need to find a way to stall those creatures for ten minutes while you chant away. That means that somebody will likely be using Bluff or Diplomacy checks to improvise some sort of sign language, and doing so obviates the need for the ritual.


No, it does not mean this. It means that comprehend languages is usefull if you know that you will have to understand a language, either by finding some writings of it or as a preparation before you will visit for example the orc king to negotiate with him. In fact the ritual would not be more usefull if you could cast it in 3 seconds because someone noticing you casting in front of him may kill you just for the case that you are doing something harmfull to him. And why exactly should a improvised sign language (improvised in 10 minutes) make it useless to perfectly understand a language?

Sometimes you simple are not only asking for the way to the next tavern. You need real understanding of the person you are talking to.



The problem with Water Walk is that it affects only one creature. Because of its short duration, it's not really feasible to have your entire party walking on water. Pretty much any situation that can be solved by having one person walk on water, can be solved more easily through making swim checks.

Of course, a competent DM will bypass the restrictions on the above three examples, thus playing them by their fluff text instead of their rules, and that's exactly my point.

In fact i had many situations during my games where it was neccessary to bring someone over a river who can not swim. Or can not swim good enough. For example i was saving a small kid from some poisonous monsters, and i did not have antivenom. It was a skill challenge like encounter to bring it back through the wilderness to it's home. He was ill and i would not be able to let him swim through the cold waters of the mountain river. Swim checks should help? They would only help him die. Maybe nature checks could help to find a better way? Sure, in fact this was the way my character acted.

But i would have been 3 times as fast with this child at the village if i had used rituals. Or be able to save him from the poison by creating antivenom.

And you have to compare this: You could pay 10 gp to cross the river or risk your life trying it. Also we are talking about a very low level ritual. There are rituals that transport your whole group over the river without swimming.

TheOOB
2010-02-09, 12:19 AM
Of course, a wizard could just use dimension door or levitate to get across the water, or a fighter could use athletics and have it not cost money and 10 minutes. Heck, if your DM is willing the wizard can even make an ice bridge across the water with encounter powers. There are lots of solutions to problems that don't require rituals, thus even without the costs rituals should be really really good at what they do, not ho hum like they are now.

I don't think anyone is saying there are not situations where the effect of a ritual would not be useful, but aside from a couple key rituals(dis/enchant magic item, teleport, raise dead, cure disease), the effects of the ritual either a)are not worth what they cost or b)not worth the time.

Besides, you are forgetting an important component to rituals. Not only does it take 10 minutes and 10 gp to cast, but it takes hours/days of shoping and 50gp to get it in the first place. Few classes get any number of free rituals, and unless you know are going to need that ritual alot, you are not going to spend the time and money to learn it, and if you are going to need it alot, just take linguistics.

Nightson
2010-02-09, 12:38 AM
I don't think anyone is saying there are not situations where the effect of a ritual would not be useful, but aside from a couple key rituals(dis/enchant magic item, teleport, raise dead, cure disease), the effects of the ritual either a)are not worth what they cost or b)not worth the time.

They aren't worth the cost or the time except when they are is what you're saying. And you're right, there are plenty of situations where rituals are useless. Middle of the desert, water walking ain't so great. Need your rogue with low athletics to sneakily make his way out to a docked ship? Need the wizard to be able to run over and shoot a fireball up into the rigging of the pirate ship when you attack?


Besides, you are forgetting an important component to rituals. Not only does it take 10 minutes and 10 gp to cast, but it takes hours/days of shoping and 50gp to get it in the first place. Few classes get any number of free rituals, and unless you know are going to need that ritual alot, you are not going to spend the time and money to learn it, and if you are going to need it alot, just take linguistics.

Shopping takes days of time? What campaign are you in? Here's how it's handled in my campaign "I want to buy ritual X" "Okay, that's 200 gold, you got that" "Yep." *brief flavor text of picking it up at the nearest place it would be available* Thirty seconds of play time, a totally unimportant chunk of ingame time.

valadil
2010-02-09, 12:44 AM
I haven't played much 4e in a home game setting, but I've played a lot of LFR. Aside from Raise Dead, I haven't seen any rituals get used. It's not that they're useless - they're just not necessary.

LFR modules are designed so that just about any set of characters can get through. There are plenty of situations that would be made easier with a ritual, but none that require them. I get the sense that challenges in 4e follow this format. There are plenty of ways you can slow down your PCs. But most of them (and by them, I mean the challenges enumerated in the books. Good GMs will make up their own) can be beaten by a character without the aid of consumable ritual scrolls. The scroll may help, but it's never necessary.

Edea
2010-02-09, 04:34 AM
Been playing awhile (ever since 4e came out), and I have to say, not even Item Creation gets used very often in the games I've played. Besides the Heal rituals, what I hear (and agree with) is that most of these things are 1) far too expensive to procure and cast (in particular the latter), 2) take WAY too long to cast, 3) rely on rather ridiculous skill check DCs to even work, and 4) produce pretty crappy effects even when they do succeed.

Oh god, comprehend languages; I remember our KotS/TL/PoS party trying to use that to speak to a prisoner who only knew Goblin, we couldn't meet the bloody check DC. I think we were around level...5 or so? I was furious. Even the Heal rituals (the best ones by far) have that problem; we had to remove petrification from one of our paladins in the pyramid, blasted thing chopped off almost all his hit points.

Rituals are crap; some nice ideas in there (such as delocalizing them, so that any character can use them by taking a feat), but the overall execution is -terrible- IMO.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-09, 04:46 AM
Besides, you are forgetting an important component to rituals. Not only does it take 10 minutes and 10 gp to cast, but it takes hours/days of shoping and 50gp to get it in the first place.
Absolutely. Regardless of how much time shopping takes in your game, the point is that your character must have bought it in advance. If you find yourself in front of a chasm and think "hey, this is a good spot for the Create Bridge ritual", then that only helps if your character expected that he might encounter a chasm - and not just expected it, invested money for just this possibility.

Considering how many rituals are highly situational, that's a lot of money to invest for hypothetical situations that may never occur. Would you buy a handful of rituals in the hopes that one of them might be useful some time in the future, or would you buy a powerful magical item that will help you every encounter?



LFR modules are designed so that just about any set of characters can get through. There are plenty of situations that would be made easier with a ritual, but none that require them. I get the sense that challenges in 4e follow this format.
This is not just limited to LFR, either. Usually, unless the DM specifically decrees that such-and-such challenge must be solved with a ritual, it can also be solved with e.g. skill checks. And whenever this is the case, skill checks will both be faster and cheaper.

TheOOB
2010-02-09, 05:13 AM
Shopping takes days of time? What campaign are you in? Here's how it's handled in my campaign "I want to buy ritual X" "Okay, that's 200 gold, you got that" "Yep." *brief flavor text of picking it up at the nearest place it would be available* Thirty seconds of play time, a totally unimportant chunk of ingame time.

Yes...if your in city Greyhawk or Waterdeep. Even in high magic campaign settings, most towns and villages don't have a magic shop, and even fewer dungeons do. Unless all your adventures take place an hour away from a city large enough to have someone who had rituals books/scrolls on hand, you can't ensure that you will be able to pick up the ritual when you need it. That means that unless you thought ahead to buy the ritual, you likely won't have it when you need it.

Since rituals are expensive, you are only likely to buy the rituals you need, which will mostly be healing rituals. You are only likely to buy a more limited ritual if you have reason to believe you will need it alot, in which case there are likely feats, utility powers, and magic items that would do the job better.

For example, if the campaign takes place around a lot of water, you might pick up Wavestrider boots. They can be used immediately, not requiring 100 rounds to activate, and over time, if you use them alot, will pay for themselves when compared to the ritual.

Nightson
2010-02-09, 06:27 AM
Water Walk - 100g initial investment, 20gp component cost
10 minute casting provides an hour of walking on water

Wavestriders - 840gp initial investment
Carry them around, slip them on for five minutes of water walking at the cost of a daily item power use.

You have to use Wavestriders 37 times for them to cost less. And the utility offered by them is simply different. Wavestriders is a large initial investment for for the ability to gain a short buff on small notice costing a very limited but not hugely valuable resource.

Water Walk is a cheaper initial cost, has a longer activation time and a longer buff, and costs a small amount of gold, exactly how small will depend on one's financial situation, but twenty gold is not going to be an arm and a leg past first level.

Leolo
2010-02-09, 07:09 AM
Considering how many rituals are highly situational, that's a lot of money to invest for hypothetical situations that may never occur. Would you buy a handful of rituals in the hopes that one of them might be useful some time in the future, or would you buy a powerful magical item that will help you every encounter?

In fact this is a classical d&d question. How many ressources do you invest in preparation? I do not believe that you will loose many time by searching for rituals (you will be in the city from time to time anyway)

But it is a preparation cost. In the most cases the price is only about 5%-10% of a magic item of the same lvl - and many rituals get better if you advance in levels. So you might compare the use of a lvl X item with the use of 10 Rituals of the same level. And while some rituals are situational the most of them are not.

For example:

Will your campaign involves traveling through the land? There are cheap rituals that make it faster, less dangerous and let you hide your tracks. Is this situational? Only in very few campaigns.

There are rituals that let you look through the dungeon wall in front of you, hinder enemies from detecting you, detect secret doors or treasure or blocking a dungeon hallway. Situational? Only if dungeons are rare in this game.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-09, 07:16 AM
Water Walk - 100g initial investment, 20gp component cost
10 minute casting provides an hour of walking on water
What cripples Water Walk is not its monetary cost, but its ludicrous casting time coupled by the fact that it only affects one person.

Compare it to: Athletics skill - 0 gp initial investment
Zero casting time, provides at least one hour of crossing water.

The DC for not drowning in stormy water is only 11. This means that pretty much every party will have at least one member who is literally incapable of drowning in stormy water (+4 from strength, +5 from being trained, +1 from being 2nd level or higher).

How convoluted must the situation be that your needs for crossing water cannot be resolved faster and cheaper with the athletics skill?

Kurald Galain
2010-02-09, 07:31 AM
In fact this is a classical d&d question. How many ressources do you invest in preparation?
Rather, will you invest in preparation for situations that are likely to occur, or for situations that are rare?


I do not believe that you will loose many time by searching for rituals
This I agree with.


In the most cases the price is only about 5%-10% of a magic item of the same lvl
This I don't. A random sample, Detect Object costs 20%, +8% per usage. Eye of Warning, 20% +4% per usage. Magic Circle costs 25% + 10% per usage.


And while some rituals are situational the most of them are not.
It would seem you have a very different definition of "situational". If something only works in uncommon situations, then it is situational. If something is rarely needed, then it is definitely situational.

For instance, a power that gives you a stealth bonus in the forest is situational. A spell that only works on undead is situational. A spell that deals cold damage is not situational, since cold immunity is pretty rare.


There are cheap rituals that make it faster, less dangerous and let you hide your tracks. Is this situational?
For instance. Being faster is only needed if time is important; reducing danger and hiding tracks is only needed if something is after you that is way above your challenge rating. None of these are frequent occurences, therefore all three are situational.


There are rituals that let you look through the dungeon wall in front of you, hinder enemies from detecting you, detect secret doors or treasure or blocking a dungeon hallway.
None of these are common occurences either, with the exception of detecting secret doors in dungeon settings. For instance, blocking a hallway is only relevant if there's some big critter out there that you can't handle and that you can't outrun, and that can't bypass your barrier, and that doesn't mind waiting for 10 minutes while you put up the barrier. It doesn't get much more situational than that.

Leolo
2010-02-09, 08:10 AM
It is not only this situation. You could want to take a rest in a place that does look save enough for a rest. Blocking this room from intruders is not only a good idea if you already see them in front of you.

Maybe our definition of "situational" differs. But regardless of word definitions resting in a dungeon is not a situation that is in any way rare.

And to avoid danger while traveling is not only important if you expect higher level foes. Why should it be? Frankly, you have defined the situation "there may be monsters in the next room" and "a monster is patrolling the dungeon tunnel and searching for intruders" as


None of these are common occurences either

From my point of view the problem is that your perspective only is "in what situation would i use this ritual", and not "in what situation could it be usefull". Is it usefull to be not detected by the next orc patroll? Maybe you would not invest in preparations that could accomplish this, or you would invest in other ways to accomplish this.

But the question is if this situation occures frequently or not.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-09, 08:19 AM
And to avoid danger while traveling is not only important if you expect higher level foes. Why should it be? Frankly, you have defined the situation "there may be monsters in the next room" and "a monster is patrolling the dungeon tunnel and searching for intruders" as "None of these are common occurences either "
Frankly, if you want to avoid monsters in the next room, or bypass a dungeon patrol, then standing still and chanting loudly for the next ten minutes is not my idea of good strategy.

Leolo
2010-02-09, 09:02 AM
Sure i know that you would not. You have told it often enough. But this is not the question. The question is: How often would it be usefull to know if there are monsters (and how many are) in the next room?

And in a game like d&d i would not expect this situation to be rare. If you have answered this question, than you could ask yourself how usefull a ritual could be that helps you in this situation.

Also - no you do not have to stand there and loudly chant 10 minutes. The specific activities are left to your imagination. But for example "performing gestures" or "burning some reagents" are also possible. (you do not have to stand next the door anyway...)

Kurald Galain
2010-02-09, 09:08 AM
The question is: How often would it be usefull to know if there are monsters (and how many are) in the next room?
I agree that in a dungeon crawl, the answer is "pretty often".


you could ask yourself how usefull a ritual could be that helps you in this situation.
It would be useful in theory. In practice, it depends heavily on (1) its casting time, (2) its gold cost, and (3) its other restrictions. Bearing in mind that I could also ask the party rogue (or my familiar) to do some scouting, which ritual did you have in mind that lets me know what is going on in the next room?

Leolo
2010-02-09, 12:52 PM
For example wizard sight.

You can see and hear things that happen in the next room. Or in the dark tower you are standing in front of. Or the goblin cave below the hill you are standing on. I would not say it is cheap - 270gp per use and nearly 1000gp initial cost is not cheap (although still much cheaper than lvl 8 items).

But it could be worth the effort, because it can show you things your rogue will not see. For example because it would bring him into danger, or simple because the room you are scrying is not within reach without flight or similar obstacles.

One thing that has to be mentioned is that 270gp per casting may not be worth the effort at lvl 8. As most divinations it is on a medium level and in fact in most times it is better to use lower level rituals and have a higher flexibility.

But the ritual is not getting worse at higher levels. The chance to be detected is getting lower, the duration increases. And you will have more gold.

I would not see the casting time as critical, because...if you have time to rest 5 minutes after getting into a fight with unexpected monsters you also have 10 minutes time to avoid this situation or prepare yourself better.

Yakk
2010-02-09, 01:35 PM
At level 26, your parties expected incoming wealth is 2 level 26 magic items, split over 5 members, over about 9 encounters.

This is about 50000 gp per encounter.

270 gp per use is 0.5% of the treasure you'd expect from kicking in the next door.

At level 8, 270 gp is is 20% of the treasure you'd expect from kicking in the next door.

At level 8, spending 270 gp is a huge investment. At level 26, spending 270 gp is something you wouldn't even notice. As you level from 8 to 26, you should be using that ritual more and more often.

Rituals are rarely worth using regularly the level you are allowed to cast them, because they cost too much to use. They can be used "in extremis" at that level.

By level 13, 270 gp is 4% of your expected share of the treasure from the next encounter. At level 18, it is less than 1%.

If you discard rituals as too expensive at the level where you could just start to cast them, and never look back at them, then you aren't paying attention.

Lamech
2010-02-09, 01:51 PM
I think Lich transformation and dark gift of the undying seem like rather useful rituals...

Jayabalard
2010-02-09, 08:05 PM
D&D is, was, and will always be a small group war game with roleplaying elements. From it's beginnings as a chainmail spinoff, to it's current iteration where grids and squares are part of the mechanics, the game had always retained it's war game roots.Nah, over the years plenty of people have played it as a roleplaying game first and formost, with very little actual combat. Whether the game is played as a war game or not is strictly a matter of the particular people involved; and while this might be an accurate descriptor for the particular games you are involved in, asserting this is the universal case is more than a little silly.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-09, 08:28 PM
For example wizard sight.
I see a few problems. The obvious one is the gold cost; as you say, this is not really feasible at level 8. A more subtle issue is the fact that a group of monsters in the room are very likely to detect the sensor. The third is that listening at the door would likely give you the same information as the ritual does.

The main problem, however, is this: you are an adventuring party on a dungeon crawl. That means you open doors, kill the monsters in the room, and take their stuff. What, if anything, could the ritual tell you that would make the party do something else than open the door and waltz in?

It seems the only ritual result that would make you not open the door, is if there's a monster in there too tough to defeat. However, this means you're waiting and chanting for ten minutes in close proximity to a monster that can hear you - and the tougher it is, the better its chance to detect you or the sensor. This, again, is not a wise move!


If you discard rituals as too expensive at the level where you could just start to cast them, and never look back at them, then you aren't paying attention.
As stated before, there are three problems with most rituals, and the gold cost is just the most obvious and most commonly cited of the three. The other two are the ludicrous casting time, and the many restrictions - and neither of those is diminished if you level up.

TheOOB
2010-02-10, 01:31 AM
Rituals are rarely worth using regularly the level you are allowed to cast them, because they cost too much to use. They can be used "in extremis" at that level.

By level 13, 270 gp is 4% of your expected share of the treasure from the next encounter. At level 18, it is less than 1%.

If you discard rituals as too expensive at the level where you could just start to cast them, and never look back at them, then you aren't paying attention.

Yes, but in the "looking into the next" room example before, at high levels you can just use awareness to detect what you are walking into. Oftentimes, by the time the ritual is cheap enough to use you have other methods of performing the task that don't take 10 minutes.


Nah, over the years plenty of people have played it as a roleplaying game first and formost, with very little actual combat. Whether the game is played as a war game or not is strictly a matter of the particular people involved; and while this might be an accurate descriptor for the particular games you are involved in, asserting this is the universal case is more than a little silly.

If it walks like a wargame and talks like a wargame...I'm not saying you can't play D&D however you want, whatever is fun for you, but D&D is designed to emulate a wargame, and I find it difficult to conceive an argument to the contrary. The vast majority of the players guide is about combat. Your race is measured by combat statistics, your class and powers are measured by combat statistics, the vast majority of feats, skills, and magic items are designed with combat applications. The rules of the game almost all deal with fighting in combat, situations leading to combat, or the resolution thereof. Heck your character level is pretty much a direct measure of how well you fight.

I never said that D&D is played like a wargame, I said it is a wargame with heavy role playing elements. Just because you string popcorn around a Christmas tree doesn't mean popcorn isn't food, and just because you are running a tactical combat game system with low combat doesn't mean it's not a tactical combat system. The second biggest role playing game maker in the world(White Wold) is entirely based around the idea that D&D is too focused on tactical "crunch" abilities and combat and not enough on fluff and storytelling. That's why White Wolf games use the "Storyteller System" and D&D is known as "Dungeons & Dragons", because that is what the games are about.

Talkkno
2010-02-10, 01:34 AM
How about this for a fix, rituals cost a number of healing surges depending on Tier of the ritual? 1 for herioc, 2 for paragon, and 3 for epic?

TheOOB
2010-02-10, 02:51 AM
How about this for a fix, rituals cost a number of healing surges depending on Tier of the ritual? 1 for herioc, 2 for paragon, and 3 for epic?

Better in that healing surges are not limited in the long run, but then you are giving up healing that might save your life in combat later.

Besides, several rituals do need material costs, but most don't, and it doesn't solve the 10 minutes problem which is arguably just as bad as a the cost.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-10, 03:15 AM
Then why not make it an actual ritual involving more than one person? Keep the gold cost and casting time, but reduce the time by 1 minute(or 10 minutes if it has time measured in hours) per person participating in the ritual. Further, allow someone to expend healing surges to reduce the casting time by another minute per healing surge spent. Throw a minimum cap on casting time(say a round? Two? One round per level of the ritual? Whatever) and you've solved the casting time problem.

faceroll
2010-02-10, 03:48 AM
D&D is, was, and will always be a small group war game with roleplaying elements.

Unless you play it wrong. Like the OP. He is doing it badwrong, huh?

/sarcasm

Leolo
2010-02-10, 04:12 AM
The main problem, however, is this: you are an adventuring party on a dungeon crawl. That means you open doors, kill the monsters in the room, and take their stuff. What, if anything, could the ritual tell you that would make the party do something else than open the door and waltz in?


No. The group does not have to be on a dungeon crawl. To see and hear something you could not see or hear normally is usefull in many situations. "There are monsters in the room next to us" is only one of them.

But even in a dungeon crawl you do not want to alarm the whole dungeon. So the information could be: "They are guards, watching this door to alarm their buddys if someone enters the room" or "the lever to deactivate the trap at the door is on the right side of the guards room" or "Kiddy the little girl the orcs have taken ransom is in the room bounded on a chair in the corner, we should not endanger her. But choose a tactic that will save her before the orcs can take her as a hostage"

Even in a dungeon crawl monsters can do something more than stand in a room, waiting for someone who kills them. And as have been said above: It does not have to be a dungeon crawl. You could also want to see if the house you are trying to burglarize is guarded. If there is something up the cliff wall you may or may not want to climb up. Or where in the prison is your buddy prisoned.



However, this means you're waiting and chanting for ten minutes in close proximity to a monster that can hear you - and the tougher it is, the better its chance to detect you or the sensor. This, again, is not a wise move!


No - you do not have to chant. You can do the ritual without making any noise. "Performing a ritual" explicitly states that you can choose what is neccessary to perform the ritual, and it is up to the player to describe it. And "close proximity" means a distance of 20 squares to the sensor plus any distance the monsters are away from it. Even if you are chanting it is not very likely that you will be heard.

The sensor is detectable. But he is not killable. Your party rogue might be. You say 20 sqares is close proximity? Ok, so your party fighter in his clanking armor might stay away more than this distance from the rogue? That could result in 1-2 rounds of running to the rogue while the monsters are hurting him. And of course it is questionable if there is a rogue. Your party striker might also be a barbarian or a sorcerer or a warlock and does not care for being sneaky.

Is the sensor easy detectable? It depends on your level and the monster. At level 8 the DC is 18, at lvl 16 it is 26, at lvl 24 the dc is 34

A level 8 orc chieftain has perception +5 (could not see the sensor passive, could detect it if he search and rolls a 13 and is not to far away)
A level 16 bone naga has perception +9 (could not see the sensor passive, could detect it if he search and rolls a 15 and is not to far away)
A level 24 Lich Wizard has perception +14 - he would need a 20 anyway to detect the sensor.

At lvl 8 it might be better to cast hand of fate - the information is less detailed, but it is cheaper and has a better duration.

And there are monsters with better or worse perception scores. But the progression of your dc is high enough to make the spell hard detectable at higher levels even against the monsters that are trained in perception.

Casting time can be a problem. But it do not have to be, because in the most cases you do have some minutes to rest or do something. Also many rituals can be casted in advance. You do not have to block your door if someone is standing in front of it. You block it in advance because you expect it to be possible that a monster is coming to it.

Yakk
2010-02-10, 10:36 AM
Yes, but in the "looking into the next" room example before, at high levels you can just use awareness to detect what you are walking into. Oftentimes, by the time the ritual is cheap enough to use you have other methods of performing the task that don't take 10 minutes.
I don't know what you mean by "use awareness". Do you mean perception?

Saph
2010-02-10, 11:14 AM
I've been playing ritualist characters in 4e games pretty much since it came out and I don't think I've used a ritual yet.

It's not so much that they cost you money (although they do) and it's not so much that they take too long (although they do) and it's not so much that they have a ridiculous amount of restrictions on them (although they do).

It's the fact that in just about any conceivable situation, it's easier to figure out a way to solve the problem non-magically than it is to figure out a way to solve the problem using a ritual. And since the non-ritual approach is generally faster, cheaper, and doesn't require you to have bought the ritual beforehand . . . well, it's not hard to figure out why I've gotten to the point where I've basically forgotten my character even CAN cast rituals. They're weak enough that it's honestly not worth the mental effort to remember you've got them.

There are a small list of rituals that you want, which can be more or less thought of as "plot rituals" - Raise Dead, Enchant Item, Linked Portal, etc. Essentially they're in there to fulfil a need for the GM. Raise Dead is there to make sure players can keep using their characters, Enchant/Disenchant is there to make sure PCs have appropriate gear for their level, Linked Portal is there so that you can go to the places the GM gives you the co-ordinates for. This is why there's such a discrepancy between the power of something like Linked Portal and Wizard's Sight. Both are level 8, but one is cheap and effective while the other is overpriced and a general waste of time. Why? Because Linked Portal fulfills a metagame need, while Wizard's Sight doesn't.

That's how I've come to understand it, anyway.

Leolo
2010-02-10, 12:12 PM
Yes...some rituals are more usefull then others. I would not say your list of rituals that are worth their money is in any way complete.

But you will always find rituals that are better than others.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-10, 12:13 PM
The problem with Water Walk is that it affects only one creature. Because of its short duration, it's not really feasible to have your entire party walking on water. Pretty much any situation that can be solved by having one person walk on water, can be solved more easily through making swim checks.

They did that because of 3.5's version of Knock rendering Open Lock useless. Seriously, a Wand of Knock is enough to get you through 3-4 dungeons fairly easily, and you may have charges left over from that. Never mind that Disable Device could do the same thing, or UMD for that matter. They didn't want casters to be able to completely replace the Skill Monkeys in this system.

What I would have done (and what I house rule in) is that those spells replace what skill is used, but not the need for a check. Knock? Allows casters to replace Thievery with Arcana for one locked door (or three locks on a single door). Water Walking? Arcana instead of Athletics. And not just those rituals, but any ritual that could be replaced by a skill check.

Cutting the casting times and costs associated with it helped. I replaced Knock's costs with an enchanted focus shaped like a key. Casting time was reduced to 1 Round. And the caster could choose to take a -4 penalty on the Arcana check to cast the ritual as a Standard action.

Yakk
2010-02-10, 01:00 PM
.. And now anyone with ritual casting and arcana can replace many dozen skills.

1 skill =~ 1 feat
Ritual casting =~ 1 feat.

Ritual Casting + Arcana =~ 2 feats

2 feats should not replace 10 skills. Hence someone who is trained in thievery should be better at unlocking doors (and doing thievery-based things) than someone trained in arcana with ritual casting.

Artanis
2010-02-10, 01:04 PM
They did that because of 3.5's version of Knock rendering Open Lock useless. Seriously, a Wand of Knock is enough to get you through 3-4 dungeons fairly easily, and you may have charges left over from that. Never mind that Disable Device could do the same thing, or UMD for that matter. They didn't want casters to be able to completely replace the Skill Monkeys in this system.

What I would have done (and what I house rule in) is that those spells replace what skill is used, but not the need for a check. Knock? Allows casters to replace Thievery with Arcana for one locked door (or three locks on a single door). Water Walking? Arcana instead of Athletics. And not just those rituals, but any ritual that could be replaced by a skill check.

Cutting the casting times and costs associated with it helped. I replaced Knock's costs with an enchanted focus shaped like a key. Casting time was reduced to 1 Round. And the caster could choose to take a -4 penalty on the Arcana check to cast the ritual as a Standard action.

That brings back every single problem that 3.5's Knock had anyways.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-10, 01:13 PM
That brings back every single problem that 3.5's Knock had anyways.

Not all of the problems. A: Focus would cost between 600gp and 2K. B: It isn't automatically successful. It's useful, but anyone can take Ritual Caster (not just Arcane/Divine/Primal classes).

Besides, the Adamantine Dagger exists in 4E. Same idea, different mechanic, nearly automatic.

The New Bruceski
2010-02-10, 04:10 PM
The modification I've played around with is that you can cast rituals fast, cheap, or good. Note that DM has the last word if a particular ritual won't work like this (magic item crafting).
Fast -- 1/10 the casting time.
Cheap -- 1/5 the cost.
Good -- +5 on an involved skill roll.

I'm still tweaking the modifiers but otherwise I like it.

Dimers
2010-02-10, 04:43 PM
I like Sinfire's concept, though if I were DMing I think I'd adjust the skill requirement upward from the base skill. And I really like Bruceski's paradigm. Nice work, y'all. :smallsmile:

Jayabalard
2010-02-10, 05:03 PM
Also - no you do not have to stand there and loudly chant 10 minutes. The specific activities are left to your imagination. But for example "performing gestures" or "burning some reagents" are also possible. (you do not have to stand next the door anyway...)Burning some reagents runs the same risk as chanting loudly, just with a different sense.

Regardless, the idea that all rituals can be done with no additional risk of being discovered really seems like a stretch to me. I guess there are some types of permissive GM's that will go along with that, but it seems rather unreasonable to assume that this is the default case.

Artanis
2010-02-10, 05:51 PM
Not all of the problems. A: Focus would cost between 600gp and 2K. B: It isn't automatically successful. It's useful, but anyone can take Ritual Caster (not just Arcane/Divine/Primal classes).

Besides, the Adamantine Dagger exists in 4E. Same idea, different mechanic, nearly automatic.

You've still got a caster making a thief-type unnecessary. As for the focus, 2K gets pretty trivial as you go up in level.

TheOOB
2010-02-10, 09:32 PM
I don't know what you mean by "use awareness". Do you mean perception?

Sorry, been playing a lot of Exalted lately, the same skill is called awareness there.

As a DM when I have a ritualist in the party I always encounter a problem. I feel like I have to create situations where rituals are used in order to make the player able to use rituals, but the only way to make the party use the ritual is to ensure that they have to use a ritual, and situations where rituals are required are surprisingly hard to design. If the ritual isn't somehow require, the players will find some way to achieve the results without spending extra money, and if the ritual is required it feels like I am taxing the players. Neither option really works. With rare exception I've found most players only use rituals for novelty, or so they feel justified in spending a feat(or two), and several hundred(or thousand) gold on them.

Leolo
2010-02-11, 02:45 AM
Is it really that hard to come up with situations where rituals are usefull?

Attack them while sleeping with some lurkers - take the guard at ransom or hurt them enough to ensure that it may be a good idea to make better preparations.

Hide a item in a dungeon and let them search it. Hide it with conceal object.

Kill a character.

Let them meet someone who told them about a upcoming danger for the nearby village and let them decide if it would be a good idea to be there before it burns or after this.

They still can solve this situations without rituals. But with them it is much easier and they will have a higher chance of success. And i would not see any of this situations is very unusual.

Also: You could simple show them usefull rituals by let the opponents use some. Your players hide/guard a precious item? There may be someone who find it against any mundane chance. Your players fight a wizard at a lake? Hey, maybe he can walk over the water. Or simple fly above their heads.

The nearby wild tribe of nasty creatures is brought to the opinion that it is a good idea to kill all humans in the land by a foreigner who is speaking their language. ("The hovati do not know how evil you are Beloq!","To bad that you do not speak their language Mr. Jones." ^^)

Let the BBEG escape via teleportation spells if your players take longer than 10 minutes from the first alarm to him. Or let him invite some friends.

You might think it is a bad idea to hinder your players this way, and that you are playing to much "against them" instead of "with them" if you use rituals this way. But they are part of the game. Your players are missing options if they do not use them.

Your opponents are missing options if they do not use them, too. Options that can literally raise dead and move mountains.

illyrus
2010-02-11, 01:00 PM
I wish they would create more rituals like control weather for 4E, 1 hour cast but can last for 24 hours and only requires a standard action to change the weather (which will take effect 10 minutes later). Gives the option for a ritualist to create concealment or total concealment over a large area thanks to obscuring mists etc. So while it does require some prep., it can be used to aid in combat or stealth. That and magic circle are the only ones that I've seen provide a sizable benefit to combat, with control weather requiring less prep. time than magic circle.

Yakk
2010-02-11, 01:09 PM
Sorry, been playing a lot of Exalted lately, the same skill is called awareness there.

As a DM when I have a ritualist in the party I always encounter a problem. I feel like I have to create situations where rituals are used in order to make the player able to use rituals, but the only way to make the party use the ritual is to ensure that they have to use a ritual, and situations where rituals are required are surprisingly hard to design. If the ritual isn't somehow require, the players will find some way to achieve the results without spending extra money, and if the ritual is required it feels like I am taxing the players. Neither option really works. With rare exception I've found most players only use rituals for novelty, or so they feel justified in spending a feat(or two), and several hundred(or thousand) gold on them.
Do you allow players who use rituals to break your plot?

Ie, you have a mystery of some kind -- and they solve it with the cast of a single ritual.

Are there consequences to travel times that are not arbitrary? Ie, if they summon up phantom horses and get somewhere twice as fast, does this have any impact?

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-11, 01:16 PM
They did that because of 3.5's version of Knock rendering Open Lock useless. Seriously, a Wand of Knock is enough to get you through 3-4 dungeons fairly easily, and you may have charges left over from that. Never mind that Disable Device could do the same thing, or UMD for that matter. They didn't want casters to be able to completely replace the Skill Monkeys in this system.

What I would have done (and what I house rule in) is that those spells replace what skill is used, but not the need for a check. Knock? Allows casters to replace Thievery with Arcana for one locked door (or three locks on a single door). Water Walking? Arcana instead of Athletics. And not just those rituals, but any ritual that could be replaced by a skill check.

Cutting the casting times and costs associated with it helped. I replaced Knock's costs with an enchanted focus shaped like a key. Casting time was reduced to 1 Round. And the caster could choose to take a -4 penalty on the Arcana check to cast the ritual as a Standard action.
This is still the same problem as before, you're just replacing one skill check with another. It's not really hard to maximize or remain competitive with Arcana.

The biggest thing is that you reduced the casting time and cost. But that isn't really niche protection of Open Lock.

So . . . why not just cut the cost and and reduce the casting time to rounds but make it work automatically? Nobody wants to pay to open that door if the Rogue can do it for free. If he fails, there's a backup "buy-out" option for the door.

And spending time near a door might matter more if you happen to be a DM who believes in random encounter tables and other time-sensitive elements.

This doesn't exactly make the Rogue useless.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-11, 01:20 PM
I wish they would create more rituals like control weather for 4E, 1 hour cast but can last for 24 hours and only requires a standard action to change the weather (which will take effect 10 minutes later). Gives the option for a ritualist to create concealment or total concealment over a large area thanks to obscuring mists etc. So while it does require some prep., it can be used to aid in combat or stealth. That and magic circle are the only ones that I've seen provide a sizable benefit to combat, with control weather requiring less prep. time than magic circle.
Plus it's a creative out-of-combat solution. An arcanist who casts Control Weather can slow down armies or use it as a method of attacking crops, etcetera.

That adds to the plot.

Leolo
2010-02-11, 01:28 PM
Burning some reagents runs the same risk as chanting loudly, just with a different sense.

Regardless, the idea that all rituals can be done with no additional risk of being discovered really seems like a stretch to me. I guess there are some types of permissive GM's that will go along with that, but it seems rather unreasonable to assume that this is the default case.

Yes. There will always be a chance that someone detects the ritual. For example gestures can be seen, and diagrams can be found. But there is a difference between detectable and cannot been overlooked. A DM who does not allow silent rituals is using a houserule. Because the PHP does allow other (also detectable under some circumstances) components

Saph
2010-02-11, 02:04 PM
Is it really that hard to come up with situations where rituals are usefull?

Actually, yes. You have to make an effort to come up with believable situations where rituals (other than the aforementioned plot rituals) are the most effective way of dealing with the problem. What you're more likely to come up with instead is an artificial situation designed to be solved with a ritual, where all the normal ways of solving the problem are blocked off. What you're really doing with this is creating a lock + key situation, where arbitrary situation X turns up and is resolved with obscure ritual Y (which thereafter is forgotten about).

The very fact that you need to go to this much effort to make rituals useful is exactly WHY they're so crappy. The way you can tell that a set of abilites are useful ones is if players make use of them WITHOUT being pushed into it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 02:08 PM
Actually, yes. You have to make an effort to come up with believable situations where rituals (other than the aforementioned plot rituals) are the most effective way of dealing with the problem. What you're more likely to come up with instead is an artificial situation designed to be solved with a ritual, where all the normal ways of solving the problem are blocked off. What you're really doing with this is creating a lock + key situation, where arbitrary situation X turns up and is resolved with obscure ritual Y (which thereafter is forgotten about).

The very fact that you need to go to this much effort to make rituals useful is exactly WHY they're so crappy. The way you can tell that a set of abilites are useful ones is if players make use of them WITHOUT being pushed into it.

Right. The fact that the answer to the puzzle expends a resource that isn't guaranteed to renew itself only makes matters worse. I know this gets trivial with low-level rituals, but forcing them to cast any mid or high level ones will hurt them, depending on how often they come up.

Artanis
2010-02-11, 02:11 PM
Actually, yes. You have to make an effort to come up with believable situations where rituals (other than the aforementioned plot rituals) are the most effective way of dealing with the problem. What you're more likely to come up with instead is an artificial situation designed to be solved with a ritual, where all the normal ways of solving the problem are blocked off. What you're really doing with this is creating a lock + key situation, where arbitrary situation X turns up and is resolved with obscure ritual Y (which thereafter is forgotten about).

The very fact that you need to go to this much effort to make rituals useful is exactly WHY they're so crappy. The way you can tell that a set of abilites are useful ones is if players make use of them WITHOUT being pushed into it.

Case in point: Knock. It's pretty hard to come up with a situation where it's better to spend ten minutes and a bunch of gp to unlock a door than it is for the Rogue just to make a Thievery roll or two.

Jayabalard
2010-02-11, 02:31 PM
I wish they would create more rituals like control weather for 4E, 1 hour cast but can last for 24 hours and only requires a standard action to change the weather (which will take effect 10 minutes later). Gives the option for a ritualist to create concealment or total concealment over a large area thanks to obscuring mists etc. So while it does require some prep., it can be used to aid in combat or stealth. That and magic circle are the only ones that I've seen provide a sizable benefit to combat, with control weather requiring less prep. time than magic circle.What if it were 1 hour minimum to cast, 24 hours maximum, and after the 1st hour you could make changes to the whether like you're suggesting as long as you continued the ritual? So you have the option to keep the ritual going and continue to be able to control the weather, or stop the ritual (and lose the ability to control the weather unless you started a new ritual) and wade into combat directly; and the enemy has the option to interrupt your ritual to stop your control.

Duos Greanleef
2010-02-11, 03:28 PM
My DM once let me cast pyrotechnics into the center of an encampment of Shadar-Kai. Bright blue symbols of the Raven Queen, followed by bright red symbols of Orcus flashing back and forth making loud noises.
Win? Everyone at the game seemed to think so! :smalltongue:

Also, My Half-Elf Bard seductress once, with the aid of glib limerick (and a warlock utility... and a bard utility) convinced a cleric of Tiamat that He should let me "Spend the night." :smalleek::smallyuk::smallbiggrin:

Yakk
2010-02-11, 03:35 PM
Case in point: Knock. It's pretty hard to come up with a situation where it's better to spend ten minutes and a bunch of gp to unlock a door than it is for the Rogue just to make a Thievery roll or two.
Easy: You don't have a Rogue with you.

Saph
2010-02-11, 04:28 PM
Easy: You don't have a Rogue with you.

And you don't have a Warlock either? Or a Ranger with the Rogue multiclass feat? Or any other class with the Thievery skill? Or anyone who's taken skill training or a multiclass feat to pick it up? And you can't find the key or go around it? And you can't take a Strength check to bash it down? And you can't just destroy the door with a weapon?

Then yes, if all of that is true and you have a ritualist who's bought the Knock ritual and who's level 4+ and who has the gold to spare and who's willing to expend a healing surge and if the door's important enough to be worth the effort in the first place and if you also have ten minutes to spare standing around chanting the ritual . . . then yes, if every one of those conditions is fulfilled, then Knock is useful.

You like statistics, right, Yakk? Try and take a very rough guess at the likelihood of all of those probabilities coming up together in any given session. Hint: it is not a high number. :smalltongue:

And finally, even if that ridiculously improbable chain of events somehow happens regularly enough to be significant . . . then Knock STILL isn't the best choice. Because if you're regularly coming across important unavoidable unbashable indestructible doors and for some reason nobody in the party's bothered to take the Thievery skill, then taking the Thievery skill is exactly what someone should do, to stop the party's poor ritualist from draining their healing surges every time they do a dungeon crawl.

Oh, and just to put the capper on it, the Knock ritual isn't even guaranteed to work. So you can spend your gold and time and healing surge and then fluff your Arcana check, and nothing happens. Sucks to be you.

I've just written more text than the entire Knock entry contains in the PHB, and I still haven't listed everything wrong with it. Do you see now why my wizard character doesn't bother using rituals?

Sipex
2010-02-11, 04:30 PM
Case in point: Knock. It's pretty hard to come up with a situation where it's better to spend ten minutes and a bunch of gp to unlock a door than it is for the Rogue just to make a Thievery roll or two.

Doesn't knock work on portals too?

Artanis
2010-02-11, 04:30 PM
Easy: You don't have a Rogue with you.

I meant assuming there was a Rogue.



Edit: Addendum

Doesn't knock work on portals too?

True, it does. But that gets back to Saph's point about coming up with situations specifically for using the ritual. The only reason to put an Arcane Lock on something in the first place is so that the party has to use Knock.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 04:33 PM
I've just written more text than the entire Knock entry contains in the PHB, and I still haven't listed everything wrong with it. Do you see now why my wizard character doesn't bother using rituals?

And I just ruined all of that effort with a quote tag. :smallwink:

Agreed. The ritual should not exist as written. I mean, the best I can think of is a Portcullis made of Force, and even that can be bypassed with judicious use of Mage Hand.

Jack_Banzai
2010-02-11, 04:45 PM
My bard is the master of rituals my 18th level party, and if you play a lot of story, some of them are freaking invaluable. Some are even good for combat.

Such as:

Sending (and Far Sending)
Glib Limerick
Traveler's Chant
Comrade's Succor
Banish Vermin
Endure Elements
Corpse Light
Hunter's Curse
Dark Light
Transfer Enchantment
Object Reading
Excavation
Mordenkainen's Ascent/Tenser's Lift
Fey Passage
Deathly Shroud
Find the Path
Discern Lies
Status
Shadow Bridge
Seal Portal
Shadow Passage
Detect Treasure
Magic Map
Song of Restfulness
Secure Shelter
Banish Illusions
Seeming
Elemental Transference
Passwall
Hallowed Temple
Time Ravager
Waterborn
Astral Sojourn

I don't care how much damage your Rogue does with his dagger. S/he can't stab it hard enough to send your party into the Elemental Chaos.

All of these rituals are very powerful if you are playing a story-based game. Some are even useful in combat; some are almost broken as a matter of fact. Invisible undead getting you down? Corpse Light it is. Hunting Drow? Dark Light is what you want. Can't pass an impenetrable door? How about Passwall to make it through the adjacent wall? Et cetera.

And if you aren't using story elements in your game at all, you might as well just go play computer games.

Leolo
2010-02-11, 06:29 PM
Easy: You don't have a Rogue with you.

More easy: You have a rogue, but the lock is out of reach.

I do not really think that knock is a powerful ritual, because most times you will have some char with the thievery skill trained around.

But people should not forget that knock can open doors the rogue could not open.


Actually, yes. You have to make an effort to come up with believable situations where rituals (other than the aforementioned plot rituals) are the most effective way of dealing with the problem. What you're more likely to come up with instead is an artificial situation designed to be solved with a ritual, where all the normal ways of solving the problem are blocked off.

Look at the examples above. I did not create situations where something is blocked off. What i did is to create situations where "normal" ways to solve the problems still exist (you could still travel the slow way to the threatened village, you can still try to find the item the hard way, you could still hold watch without magical enhancement and no - you will not get killed every time you do. Even character death can be overcome without resurrection by simple create a new character or ask the cleric in the next town).

But it is better to be some hours earlier at the village. It is better to find the item without having to face literally the whole dungeons monster collection and without spending a lot of time searching it. And it is better to resurrect the dead rogue now and not in the next city because he could help the group that way.

I have some problems with the categorizing of situations as "artificial" that are so banal as "i have to get to somewhere fast". Or "i have to know what happened here", "i have to know where item XYZ is", "i want to fly" and so on.

I simple do not believe that i have to construct such situations, they will come up by itself. And there are many more, the true strength of rituals is the flexibility you can have with them. But i do believe that there are many players that would not try to use rituals to solve this situations simple because of they believe/heard "rituals suck". And it could be useful for a DM encountering this to show his players that there are rituals that can be a very powerful tool.

Saph
2010-02-11, 06:46 PM
But i do believe that there are many players that would not try to use rituals to solve this situations simple because of they believe/heard "rituals suck".

Did you consider that perhaps the reason people think rituals suck is that they have actually, empirically, found rituals to suck?

Because I've been playing wizard and cleric characters since 4e came out. Wizards and clerics get Ritual Casting as a bonus feat. Every character I played, I started out with a bunch of ritual components. And in every case where I could use a ritual, I found that it was faster and easier to solve the problem without one.

There are a small number of essential rituals that every party is going to take. You can, frankly, count them on the fingers of one hand. Raise Dead, Linked Portal, one or two others. Beyond that, they're pretty much useless.

Leolo
2010-02-11, 08:36 PM
@Saph:

No, i do not think that all people who think that rituals suck have never tried to use them in a clever way. Opinions are still opinions. But that does not mean that there are no short thought judgments.

For example if you say that


You can, frankly, count them on the fingers of one hand. Raise Dead, Linked Portal, one or two others. Beyond that, they're pretty much useless.

you are saying that you are using useless options if you
...fly for the next hours
...talk to dead
...create, alter or destroy magic items
...visit other planes
...know what happened in the past
...know what fate will bring you in the future
...change your appearance and those of your group members
...create gold on your own
...walk through walls, squeeze under doors
...move faster than any other creature in the game
...breath water
...talk to someone on another plane
...talk any language
...find any item
...be able to hide any item
...cure diseases and poisons
...raise a city in the sky, move mountains
...control weather
...use telepathy
...imprison some monster or let it stay out
...rest safe and short and without leaving tracks
...instantly teleport you and your party back to a save place when needed
...teleport someone to you
...create your own demiplane storage place
...get the benefits of resting without resting

and so on.

Lets try this: choose 5 of the options above and complete the sentence: "My character is useless, he could only: A, B, C, D, E"

Colmarr
2010-02-11, 09:45 PM
To be honest, I suspect that a lot of the "rituals suck" attitude comes from the fact that people look at them only from the meta side of the equation.

It is correct to say that many rituals are less than useful if you take into account that:

1. the DM wants to progress his story so he's going to give you alternative methods of success;

2. 4e D&D is rarely so deadly that a choice of methodology is capable of resulting in sudden death.

However, if you look at things from the PC's perspective, where risks are real and the possibility of death is ever-present, then spending some money and time to avoid those risks is eminently realistic.

Notwithstanding all that, I personally think rituals are one of the least-well realised areas of the 4e rules, and they do need an overhaul. My first step would be to reduce casting times by a factor of 10 for most of them. If the speed hump is overcome, I think the component cost is much less of an issue.

Telok
2010-02-12, 03:09 AM
Of course there are the rituals that are just dangerous to cast.

I am getting to play a bard this next game, I was excited about the free daily ritual. Then I figured out it was the bard only rituals and there are only ten of them and none of them are higher than level 10. And dangerous, I've been reading the arcana skill rules too.

Let's take Call of Friendship as an example. It's level 4, costs 215 gold to buy, uses a 50gp musical instrument as a focus and costs 50gp worth of ressiduium (can't use normal reagents for this one) if it's not your first one today. Now you have to cast it on one person within 50 feet of you, for ten minutes, while reading from your ritual book and manipulating the reagents.

Next it's a DC 10 arcana check for people to notice that you're casting a ritual. Unless the DM decides that most people never see rituals cast, then it might be DC 20. After the ritual is cast the subject will help you for anywhere from an hour to a day as long as there is no risk to him in doing so.

As a bonus he radiates magic for the entire duration of the effect. It's a DC 22 (trained only) arcana check to notice this, and another one to precisely identify the ritual. Of course the last bonus to this is that wnen the effect wears off the subject will know that you used magic to influence him to help you.

So for a level 4 ritual costing 265 to 310 gold, you have magically intimidated and/or diplomacied somebody for up to 24 hours. The level 8 version of this, Anthem of Unity, is much worse. It affects a whole crowd, at about 5 times the price and with more restrictions as to what they will do. Using either of these in a lawful society is a really good way to become hunted outlaws.

Seriously, most of the 230 rituals in the DDI compendium are pretty pathetic. They are as good as (mabey, depending on circumstances) a skill, item, or utility power. Compare the level 9 ritual Detect Treasure to the arcana skill section for detecting magic. The skill finds magic loot in almost exactly the same radius as a ten minute ritual that costs money.

Magic Circle, Raise Dead, Remove Affliction, Enchant/Disenchant, and the teleport circle stuff. You don't need any other rituals. Some might be nice, but 4e is designed so that you can forget them and not notice. I love Skill Watch, I'd use it daily except for the 20gp per hour cost. At heroic tier it's just unaffordable.

Saph
2010-02-12, 05:24 AM
Lets try this: choose 5 of the options above and complete the sentence: "My character is useless, he could only: A, B, C, D, E"

Leolo, do you ever actually read the rituals? Because you don't seem to have noticed the list of costs and drawbacks.

Let's try just one of the ones on your list, the Comprehend Languages ritual. Wow, you can "speak any language"! Great! So if you know you're about to go into a dungeon filled with orcs, you can learn to speak Orc.

. . . Except, wait. You can only do that if you've heard the language within the past 24 hours. That right there is a prime example of the idiocy of how the ritual chapter of the 4e PHB was designed. What POSSIBLE reason does that restriction serve? It means you can't cast the ritual until after you've already encountered the things you want to use it on! I'd love to meet the 4e designer who thought that was a good idea.

So let's say you get around that particular restriction. Except, oops, you still can't speak Orc, because actually being able to speak the language requires a DC 35 Arcana check. Does your character have +25 or higher to Arcana? I don't mean whether he hypothetically COULD get that high a bonus if you specifically built him that way, I'm asking whether he ACTUALLY has that high a plus. Like, right now.

And that's not even getting into the issue of why your world-shakingly powerful arcanist character is apparently incapable of just hiring an interpreter.

The really sad part? Comprehend Languages is actually one of the better rituals. That tells you a lot.

Colmarr
2010-02-12, 05:50 AM
Let's try just one of the ones on your list

In fairness to Leolo, I can't help but point out that you chose one of the least impressive rituals on his list.


And that's not even getting into the issue of why your world-shakingly powerful arcanist character is apparently incapable of just hiring an interpreter.

And this is disingenuous. Sure, interpreters hire themselves out all the time to go and talk to the orc horde at the bottom of Castle Eatmeplease's dungeon...

Like I said, in large part I agree with your criticisms of 4e's approach to rituals, but hyperbole, selective criticism, and ignoring the "good" or "useful" rituals doesn't help advance the discussion.

Saph
2010-02-12, 06:00 AM
And this is disingenuous. Sure, interpreters hire themselves out all the time to go and talk to the orc horde at the bottom of Castle Eatmeplease's dungeon...

Which do you think is easier in the Heroic tier: finding a henchman who speaks Orc who's willing to accompany you, or getting a +25 to your Arcana check?


In fairness to Leolo, I can't help but point out that you chose one of the least impressive rituals on his list.

No, no I didn't. I picked one of the best ones. :smalltongue: I can think of situations where Comprehend Languages is useful. They won't be all that common, and it's a second-rate solution, but Comprehend Languages is still worth putting in your ritual book. The same can't be said for something like Wizard's Sight.

Telok
2010-02-12, 07:57 AM
Command Circlet, level 5 warforged only head item, telepathy 20.
Circlet of Mental Onslaught, level 11 head item, +1 will defense, daily power, and telepathy 20.
Gem of Colloquy, level 2 head item, speak one additional language.
Reading Spectacles, level 2 head item, read any language.
Polygot Gem, level 6 head item, speak-read-write one additional language.
Stylus of the Translator, level 7 wonderous item, write in a laguage you don't know.

Comprehend languages is a trash ritual. Also, orcs don't speak orcish anymore. They speak common and giant. Check the books, almost everything speaks common these days.

If you want examples of truely useless rituals try Iron Vigil or Snare.

Leolo
2010-02-12, 08:46 AM
Leolo, do you ever actually read the rituals? Because you don't seem to have noticed the list of costs and drawbacks. Does your character have +25 or higher to Arcana? I don't mean whether he hypothetically COULD get that high a bonus if you specifically built him that way, I'm asking whether he ACTUALLY has that high a plus. Like, right now.

In fact he does, but that is highly dependent on the level of the character. And if you focus on rituals or not.

But this wasn't the question. There are many rituals used on the list above that are High Level or are getting good only if you have a higher level appropriate arcana check. And many of them do have drawbacks.

But it wasn't a cost / profit analysis.

It was a list of possible things that you can do with rituals, to show that rituals can do other useful things than just raise dead and link some portals.

Draxar
2010-02-12, 09:02 AM
While I can see and agree with the other issues with Rituals here, my main issue is a thematic/fluff one – rituals say that special powers for combat are quick, easy and costless, and special powers outside combat are slow and expensive.

Yes, there are some non-combat powers spread throughout the utility slots of the various classes, but really there aren't that many. I dislike rituals for that fact – it is thematically cool and appropriate that if you can throw around all these massively impressive effects in combat, that you can do something the same outside it.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-12, 10:36 AM
Did you consider that perhaps the reason people think rituals suck is that they have actually, empirically, found rituals to suck?
Based on my experience, the people that do not consider rituals to suck have a DM that handwaves the restrictions and casting time, and instead plays the ritual by the fluff text.

And I wholeheartedly support that: it is good DM'ing to ignore all those crippling restrictions. However, this is an Oberoni fallacy: just because you can ignore a bad rule doesn't make it any less a bad rule.

I think a good example is "Commune with nature". If you read the first lines, it's some spell that lets you find things outdoors. That's great, and that's something your character wants to use, and it's also something that a good DM should let you. It's just that the rest of the description of the ritual states that it doesn't actually do that.

This is how discussions about rituals usually start: some enthousiastic player points out that it's cool for his character to be able to do X, and then a skeptical player points out that the ritual that claims it does X, by the fluff text, actually doesn't by the rules text.

Restrictions are easy to overlook, and time is fluid in a roleplaying game; it is easy for the DM to say "ok, it's now eight hours later and the sun rises." So when the wizard wants to use e.g. Comprehend Languages, it is easy for the DM to say "ok, it's now ten minutes later and you can understand the orcs". However, what if there's an impatient character, and his player says that he won't wait ten minutes and starts rolling diplomacy checks? Or attack rolls? For that matter, what if the DM decides that the orcs have no logical reason to stand by idly for ten minutes while the wizard chants?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 10:44 AM
While I can see and agree with the other issues with Rituals here, my main issue is a thematic/fluff one – rituals say that special powers for combat are quick, easy and costless, and special powers outside combat are slow and expensive.

Yes, there are some non-combat powers spread throughout the utility slots of the various classes, but really there aren't that many. I dislike rituals for that fact – it is thematically cool and appropriate that if you can throw around all these massively impressive effects in combat, that you can do something the same outside it.

What if we turned Ritual into the various utility powers, and made them universal to anyone who takes Ritual Caster?

Kurald Galain
2010-02-12, 10:49 AM
You've still got a caster making a thief-type unnecessary. As for the focus, 2K gets pretty trivial as you go up in level.
Well, yes, but I've never had any campaign in which opening locks was either common or a big deal.

As far as I'm concerned there doesn't need to be a Knock ritual or spell. There's always a big friggin' axe if you really need to open things. It's just that I don't like having an existing Knock spell that is highly ineffective.


What if we turned Ritual into the various utility powers, and made them universal to anyone who takes Ritual Caster?
I've actually considered this in the past: allow any character to replace a utility power by an equal-or-lower level ritual, to be used once per day as a standard action. Then I found that most rituals are actually underpowered when used like this.

Artanis
2010-02-12, 11:25 AM
In fact he does, but that is highly dependent on the level of the character. And if you focus on rituals or not.

But this wasn't the question. There are many rituals used on the list above that are High Level or are getting good only if you have a higher level appropriate arcana check. And many of them do have drawbacks.

But it wasn't a cost / profit analysis.

It was a list of possible things that you can do with rituals, to show that rituals can do other useful things than just raise dead and link some portals.

Nobody claims that rituals do nothing. In a vacuum, they can be really quite handy. The problem with most rituals is the words "in a vacuum." Most rituals' usefulness breaks down when there's other options with less (if any) cost, effort, and usage time...and there almost always is some other option like that.

Telok gave a great example for Comprehend Languages. If you're going on a world-spanning campaign where you'll need to be able to talk in a lot of different languages, it's pretty handy to have available. But if you aren't, he listed a bunch of items that can make it superfluous.



Well, yes, but I've never had any campaign in which opening locks was either common or a big deal.

As far as I'm concerned there doesn't need to be a Knock ritual or spell. There's always a big friggin' axe if you really need to open things. It's just that I don't like having an existing Knock spell that is highly ineffective.

I agree. These are very good reasons why Knock still wouldn't be that useful even if it was instant and free.

I was responding to the fact that, should you somehow run into a situation where Knock's effect would be useful, his proposed changes would bring back 3.5-Knock's old problem of making a lockpicker superfluous.

Draxar
2010-02-12, 03:07 PM
What if we turned Ritual into the various utility powers, and made them universal to anyone who takes Ritual Caster?

Problem is, as well as the possible issues that Kurald mentions, you're then asking people to choose between being good in combat, or good outside combat. And my friends have been going on at me about how 4E is better because you don't have to spend limited slots on stuff that doesn't relate to combat.

If I could go back and rewrite 4E, I would (amongst other things) have all the utility powers be not relating to combat, and put many such effects in there.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 04:44 PM
Problem is, as well as the possible issues that Kurald mentions, you're then asking people to choose between being good in combat, or good outside combat. And my friends have been going on at me about how 4E is better because you don't have to spend limited slots on stuff that doesn't relate to combat.

If I could go back and rewrite 4E, I would (amongst other things) have all the utility powers be not relating to combat, and put many such effects in there.

Agreed on the latter part. If they had made Utility actually do what it's name says instead of being combat-boosters the system would be a lot better.

Draxar
2010-02-12, 06:49 PM
It's one of the biggest things that puts me off 4E.

In a high magic setting, I want non-combat to be high magic too. Now, admittedly Exalted fits that better for me, but I have a written up bard who can fascinate and suggest at people by just talking at them forcefully (Perform: Oratory + Subsonics), read half a dozen books in a minute, make all kinds of interesting illusions, and make people do what he want for a week.

And lots of other characters with broad non-combat abilities.

And you just can't do that in 4E.

Colmarr
2010-02-12, 08:55 PM
Which do you think is easier in the Heroic tier: finding a henchman who speaks Orc who's willing to accompany you, or getting a +25 to your Arcana check?

Who said Comprehend Languages could only be used in the heroic tier? And who said you needed +25 arcana to make a DC 35 Arcana check, particularly with 4 allies nearby who can assist?

But I wasn't talking about the mechanics. I was talking about the "impressive" rituals.

Breathing underwater, creating earthmotes and speaking with the dead (to name a few) are far more impressive than speaking another language.


The same can't be said for something like Wizard's Sight.

Which wasn't on Leolo's list.


Command Circlet, level 5 warforged only head item, telepathy 20.
Circlet of Mental Onslaught, level 11 head item, +1 will defense, daily power, and telepathy 20.
Gem of Colloquy, level 2 head item, speak one additional language.
Reading Spectacles, level 2 head item, read any language.
Polygot Gem, level 6 head item, speak-read-write one additional language.
Stylus of the Translator, level 7 wonderous item, write in a laguage you don't know.

The cheapest of which (Gem of Colloquy and Reading Glasses) cost 10 times the mastery cost of Comprehend Languages. Both are limited to verbal communication or reading (neither can do both) and the Gem requires you to guess which language might be useful at some indeterminate point in time.

The most expensive (Circlet of Mental Onslaught) costs 180 times the mastery cost of Comprehend Languages. Edit: And doesn't grant telepathy according to my copy of the character builder.

The usefulness of rituals is much harder to judge than many people suggest.

Telok
2010-02-13, 08:56 AM
The cheapest of which (Gem of Colloquy and Reading Glasses) cost 10 times the mastery cost of Comprehend Languages. Both are limited to verbal communication or reading (neither can do both) and the Gem requires you to guess which language might be useful at some indeterminate point in time.

The most expensive (Circlet of Mental Onslaught) costs 180 times the mastery cost of Comprehend Languages. Edit: And doesn't grant telepathy according to my copy of the character builder.


Amusingly the Reading Glasses and a piece of chalk will solve all your out of combat communication needs as long as you have something to write on. That's if you can find something you need to talk to that doesn't speak Common. Further more the items cost once and work forever, the ritual costs time and money every time it's used. My source for all this is the DDI Compendium, the character builder being whiny piece of .NET security flaw.

160 of the 230 rituals are level 10 or less. The cost kills the use of some of these, time kills others (Water Walking!), and replacement by skills and items kills more. There are a few rituals that work and are worth having, if the circumstances of your campaign make them useful, and a handful more that are universally good. Of the 13 rituals in the epic tier I was only impresses with two and four of them are plot scenes.

Don't get me wrong, there are good and/or useful rituals. But it's about 20 of them unless the DM goes out of his way to make some more of them useful. And many more than 20 rituals are just trash (scrying!).

Jayabalard
2010-02-13, 10:49 AM
Amusingly the Reading Glasses and a piece of chalk will solve all your out of combat communication needs as long as you have something to write on. Doesn't that also require that both you and whoever you want to talk to must be literate (able to write in some language), and that you have time to communicate in this fashion? Writing notes back and forth slower than just talking, so it seems like this method would be bad in any sort of time sensitive situation.

Also... do the reading glasses just let you read all languages, or do they also let you write all languages? I mean, how do you convince this person that you've never met to put on these possibly cursed magic item without being able to talk to them in the first place?

Telok
2010-02-14, 01:28 AM
Doesn't that also require that both you and whoever you want to talk to must be literate (able to write in some language), and that you have time to communicate in this fashion? Writing notes back and forth slower than just talking, so it seems like this method would be bad in any sort of time sensitive situation.

Also... do the reading glasses just let you read all languages, or do they also let you write all languages? I mean, how do you convince this person that you've never met to put on these possibly cursed magic item without being able to talk to them in the first place?

The ritual takes at least 10 minutes to cast after you've heard the language and if you can roll well enough. And the people you want to talk to have to stand there while you cast a (possibly dangerous to them) ritual. Since the glasses let you read all written language it asolves all the language problems.

In 4e there are no more cursed magic items and everyone who can speak a language can also read it. This edition is so simplified that it assumes that you can't figure out how big a circle is, so they made it a square. The basic rules are designed to be marketed to twelve year olds with attention deficit. 1929 out of 3371 hits for monsters with the phrase "languages common" in the stat block in DDI. Language is not an issue in this edition unless the DM makes it so, then a level 2 magic item solves all your out of combat language issues.

The utter pathetic carp (fish: diseased, infected, rotting in living room) that is the Comprehend Languages ritual is just one shining example of the problem with rituals. That more than 90% of them are carp, and you could give the ritual caster feat to everyone in the party and they will only use about five to ten rituals in 30 levels.

Yakk
2010-02-14, 01:52 AM
No, it assumes PCs who can speak a language can read/write it.