Demihumans are discriminated against!

[whitelaughter]

Just struck me while commenting on the "So, how does our lovely new civilization fall?" thread:

Demihumans are the races who got a raw deal when the Oots world was created!

Consider:
Every level of Commoner gives: D4 hit points, attack bonus of 1/2, no good saves, no armour proficiencies, only one (simple) weapon proficiency.

Each level of Humanoid gives: D8 hit points, attack bonus of 3/4, good reflex saves, proficient in any described (and all lighter) armour, proficient with all simple weapons.

Now, sure demihumans can have other classes - but so can all other Humanoids, and the default class for Humanoids is Warrior not Commoner.

So much for Redcloak's complaints! If the world was remade 'fairly' the majority of the hobgoblins in the crowd would lose their armour, most of their weapons and half their HPs, gaining nothing in return. (And then lose a HD to boot).

[Mastikator]

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It's more of a cultural injustice than a game-mechanical one.

[whitelaughter]

pardon? Culture is something the races create themselves; they can't blame anyone else if their culture is substandard.

[GooeyChewie]

You might have a point about culture if this was real life. But in OOTSverse, the gods themselves created culture. Redcloak is trying his best (and worst) to change those cultures. It's a legitimate complaint, really. (His methods of brining about the change, not so much.)

[Bibliomancer]

Their enhanced abilities are a by-product of being forced to live in sub-standard waste-land areas. If they got to live in cities, of course they'd be less combat-ready.

Anyways, if they had said cities, if wouldn't matter that their average citizen was not a soldier, because they would be numerous enough to have an army (consider Azure City, Pop 500000, army 10000).

[factotum]

You might have a point about culture if this was real life. But in OOTSverse, the gods themselves created culture.

Really? I thought the Gods just created all the various races and then pretty much left them to get on with it--I doubt there was a God who said, "There shall be a city full of thieves and murderers right...here!" and created Greysky, for instance.

[Temotei]

The term demihuman is discriminatory. It implies that the races are "part human" or not worthy of a name in and of themselves.

...not cool. :smallsigh:

:thog:

[Mastikator]

pardon? Culture is something the races create themselves; they can't blame anyone else if their culture is substandard.

The goblinoids were created as PC-fodder and didn't even have their own deity until after the current OOTS universe was created.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html Look at the last frame, the culture themes were decided by the deities. Azure city had samurai and ninjas because the twelve animal gods said so. Just look at that monkey!

In fact, I'd argue that "favorite class" and "default class" (or whatever you wanna call it) is precisely a cultural thing, or at least a mostly cultural thing. Or doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that militant races have warrior class as favored, savage races have barbarian, mischievous races are rogues, etc?
If they'd all be created fairly then goblinoids and orcs would surely be as (un)civilized as the "good" races.

[Kish]

I am dubious about this thread being quite serious, but, just in case:

The hobgoblins in the army would remain warriors, except for the elite soldiers who became fighters, and the statistically-small-but-not-functionally insignificant number who became other PC classes and became adventurers. How such a retcon would handle the fact that their population in Gobbotopia has so few civilians, I don't know, but it seems likely that only the women and children Redcloak mentioned in terms of mostly being back at the mountain forts would become commoners. Also, every hobgoblin--warriors, commoners, new fighters, new adventurers--would gain a level from the removal of their +1 ECL. If you disagree with Redcloak that that would be worth it for the hobgoblins as a species, well. I think he's right and you're wrong on that particular issue. That's without getting into the whole "suddenly a paladin who kills a goblinoid for being a goblinoid Falls" and associated benefits.

[TriForce]

Just struck me while commenting on the "So, how does our lovely new civilization fall?" thread:

Demihumans are the races who got a raw deal when the Oots world was created!

Consider:
Every level of Commoner gives: D4 hit points, attack bonus of 1/2, no good saves, no armour proficiencies, only one (simple) weapon proficiency.

Each level of Humanoid gives: D8 hit points, attack bonus of 3/4, good reflex saves, proficient in any described (and all lighter) armour, proficient with all simple weapons.

Now, sure demihumans can have other classes - but so can all other Humanoids, and the default class for Humanoids is Warrior not Commoner.

So much for Redcloak's complaints! If the world was remade 'fairly' the majority of the hobgoblins in the crowd would lose their armour, most of their weapons and half their HPs, gaining nothing in return. (And then lose a HD to boot).

i think you are confused, your mixing up humanoid hit dice and class lvls here. also, there is no default class, sure most races have a preferred class, but there are hobgoblin commoners and stuff... their just not likely when 99% of your inhabitants are from a militairy outpost. atm, your comparing a commoner with a warrior hobgoblin when you might consider comparing a commoner with a npc barbarian

[Captainocaptain]

You know what I'm wondering is, are we even sure most of the Hobgoblins are Warriors, wouldnt most be commoners anyway. I mean look at elves for example, their favored class is Wizard, does that mean 90% of elves are wizards? Same with the other races. The Favored Class really only matters for adventurers, everyone else gets stuck with NPC classes, and mostly commoner. Statistically, according to the DMG, like 80% of any population will be 1st level commoners. Then another 10% other 1st level NPC classes, 9% NPC classes above 1st, and .9% 1st level PC. And only .1% will be 2nd level or higher PC classes. Basically, even in a militant group, most would still be commoners logically, right?
Ok so an actually question: Would the racial HD matter in the long run really? they only get 1 racial HD at 1st level, and then they advance by class, and they advance slower than other (basically PC oriented) races.

[spectralphoenix]

Actually, they don't get Racial HD. Creatures with 1 HD replace that hit die with a class level, rather than adding them like creatures with more HD do.

So a Hobgoblin commoner has almost the same stats as a human commoner (discounting racial ability adjustments, a Move Silently bonus, and Darkvision.) The MM entry for "Hobgoblin" stats a hobgoblin warrior, because that's what adventurers deal with most of the time.

[werik]

I think that people are confusing cultural differences with economic differences. According to Redcloak, the gods created a world that damned the goblins with territories with less natural resources. This led to an economic disparity and not a cultural disparity.

[Kish]

Actually, they have both, having either racial stats that make them worse off than PC races, or excessive or unnecessary level adjustments.