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View Full Version : Pathfinder and Gestalt characters and Unbalanced level adjustments, Oh My!



bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 02:20 AM
Short story: I need some tips on how to ask DMs about looking at the rules from my perspective (a player who has a good understanding of many of the rules, and cannot stand it when the DM deviates from the rules without giving a reason other than "I'm the DM. I'm god. What I say, goes.").

Long story: I was playing in a Pathfinder campaign as a half-elf druid, in which we had to prevent the destruction of the world. Along the way, all of the members of the party had children. I happened to have children with a nymph. When we get to the part of the campaign where we are done collecting the artifacts required to prevent the destruction of the world (sort of like in The Fifth Element, but without Milla Jovovich), we realize that the god who tasked us with saving the earth was an evil false god kinda thing, and that we actually destroyed the earth. At this point, we have to fix the world. In order for our kids to be safe, we send them to a temple in the north. We started the campaign at level one and progressed to level ten. When the god was revealed to be false, we went from level 10 to level 1 gestalt. We now have the task of restoring the world to its original (undestroyed) state. We will at some point play as our children, who will also be gestalt characters. This is where the trouble starts. Since I had kids with a nymph, my character (the child) cannot conceivably be of a core race. The race that fits the story best is the Houri (a half elf half nymph race from Bastards and Bloodlines). The Houri has a level adjustment of +5, which, IMO, is a lot to deal with. Since this is Pathfinder, our DM has been saying that 3.5 books aren't valid anymore. It wasn't until I actually looked at Paizo's website that I discovered that Pathfinder is intended to be compatible with 3.5, as long as the books are properly converted (which isn't much trouble at all). According to Savage Species, some level adjustments aren't quite accurate as far as balancing the racial benefits goes. My figures, based on the examples and tables in Savage Species, put the Houri at a +2 level adjustment, for the +2 druid levels for spellcasting and the +8 Cha, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, and +2 Int. When I mentioned this to the DM, my argument was ignored, and I was told "the book says +5 level adjustment. Cope." I am playing the Houri as a gestalt Druid Oracle. Since the race is from Bastards and Bloodlines, my first level feat is Lost Tradition, so I use Charisma instead of Wisdom as my key ability for Druid spellcasting. I know that this will mean I have spontaneous divine spellcasting controlled by Charisma from one class, and prepared diving spellcasting controlled by Charisma from the other, in addition to other class features. If I use the "Acid Test" in Savage Species on a Houri (at LA +2) with the Druid-casting-using-Charisma-instead-of-Wisdom, and compare it to a Sorcerer, I come out stronger, which would imply that the LA is too low. However, since this IS a gestalt campaign, and because a feat grants me the additional power, as opposed to the intrinsic qualities of the race, I don't think that this is very overpowered for a +2 LA, whereas my powers would soon be dwarfed if I have a +5 LA. Regardless of what my level adjustment ends up as, I will be strong at low levels. But as we progress, that +5 will hinder me a lot. How do I go about asking the DM to listen to my argument, and how do I construct an argument that accurately and effectively aids my point? I believe that I have already hurt my chances because I failed to convince the DM that I should have a lowered LA, but I really think that I have a valid point and that it is the DM's responsibility to listen to a player's argument.

The DM's job is to provide players with a story and encounters. But the DM has to make sure that the players are having fun. If the DM does not ensure that the game is balanced, the players (me) won't enjoy it. According to Pathfinder Core Rulebook, concerning the role of the DM, "All rule books, including this one, are his tools, but his word is the law. He must not antagonize the players or work to impede their ability to enjoy the game, yet neither should he favor them and coddle them. He should be impartial, fair, and consistent in his administration of the rules." Also, later in the chapter on Gamemastering, the book states that a DM should listen to a player's argument, and decide on a ruling. The DM can still deny the player's request, but owes it to the player to look up the rule after the session, and determine if the ruling was fair. The trouble that I have is that often the DM deviates from the rules, and does not give a reason other than "I'm the DM. I'm god. What I say, goes." I can understand doing this occasionally, but this happens frequently, and the DM never gives a reason that goes with the plot of the campaign.

Kylarra
2010-02-08, 02:26 AM
Well, see if you can just take your LA on one side of your gestalt? If you're already doing that, then you're probably going to be fine...

Given pathfinder races, you should probably be dropped one LA to 4, since they boosted up most core races, but I doubt you should be only put at +2, especially since you're telling us that it grants +2 to your druid casting anyway. +8 to your new primary casting stat and not losing caster levels would be ridiculous.

The rules thing sounds like you just need to talk to your DM in general about what's going on, and probably talk with everyone else to see if they're getting as worked up by rules deviations as you are. I don't personally see a particular problem with arbitrating disputes by fiat on the fly, but I generally look things up after the session is over to know what "should" have gone on.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 02:32 AM
How would you take the LA as one part of the gestalt progression when you start at level 1? Do I still get all of the racial features, even though I'm only "penalized" by the LA a little bit at the early levels? Or should I work with the DM to develop a racial class, like the ones given in Savage Species (I think minotaur is one of them)?

Since I don't know exactly what classes the the other characters will be, I don't know how powerful I would be in comparison. All I know is that one of the characters is a half-fiend sorcerer with the celestial bloodline (that player makes fun characters, some of which are overpowered), and two of the other characters are going to become assassins as soon as possible, because the false god murdered their siblings and tricked their parents. All of the parents actually had many kids (me - the half-elf druid, actually hooked up with twin nymphs and had EIGHT kids, only one of whom survived the slaughter by the false god. At the time, we thought the god was real, and left our kids with him for safety. Both the nymphs were killed, too. My character was devastated.), and they were all killed. This means we have an oxymoronic spontaneous arcane caster and two assassins... If I did end up taking a racial class, I would lose out on Oracle for 2-5 levels (depending on the LA that I can get the DM to agree with). I would lose about half of my spellcasting abilities, and I'm not entirely sure how that would compare to the power level of the other characters in the party... However, the DM was going to let me start out at first level, like every other character, and deal with the level adjustment by needing to get as much xp to level up as a character of the higher level, as per the rules for LA. This means I would have more power at first level, but I wouldn't get to second until the other members had leveled up two or more times already.

Xenogears
2010-02-08, 02:33 AM
You could use the Half-Fey template (MM3 IIRC) applied to an elf instead. Only +2 LA. That way you keep the fluff intact but you only take a 2 LA (which could be bought off at lvl 6 and 9 if that is allowed).

Some people don't feel comfortable changing the books. They, usually, assume that the people who wrote the books, being proffesionals, knew what they were doing and that you are just trying to make an Overpower Character. Chances are you won't be able to convince them otherwise.

Kylarra
2010-02-08, 02:35 AM
How would you take the LA as one part of the gestalt progression when you start at level 1? Do I still get all of the racial features, even though I'm only "penalized" by the LA a little bit at the early levels? Or should I work with the DM to develop a racial class, like the ones given in Savage Species (I think minotaur is one of them)?I was assuming you had come up with some sort of racial progression per savage species and the like, honestly. Else it's kind of impossible to be playing an LA character at level 1.


Some people don't feel comfortable changing the books. They, usually, assume that the people who wrote the books, being proffesionals, knew what they were doing and that you are just trying to make an Overpower Character. Chances are you won't be able to convince them otherwise.In this case, it's a pretty clear cut "I want my character to be more powerful" thing, going from +5 LA, to +2 LA is something that'll make any DM, experienced or not, raise an eyebrow.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 02:39 AM
I looked at the Half-Fey template, as did the DM. We both believe that it doesn't fit the story as well as the houri. I can understand your point on the Overpower Character, and I did play in a 3.5 monster campaign, with this same DM, and I was a nymph. Six racial hit dice and a +7 LA make it difficult to use class features as well as other party members, especially when your racial special attacks have such low DCs that virtually every enemy resists them... So I'm a little worried that I'll end up not being able to get my class features early enough for them to be of use... I'm a little biased as far as high LAs go, based on that past experience.

In all honesty, I don't know of any player who doesn't want his or her character to be stronger. The only tricky part is finding a power level that the DM believes isn't game-breaking. I want my character to be as strong as the DM lets it be. Wait, no ... that's not entirely accurate. I want my character to be as strong as possible WHILE STILL BEING BALANCED. If the game isn't balanced, it stops being fun. If I'm too powerful, encounters aren't challenging any more, and the game gets boring. If I'm too weak, encounters are too challenging, and I would probably adopt Marvin's attitude of "oh what's the point", because I would inevitably fail. If the DM decides to lower the LA, as I believe should happen, then I think that the houri will become balanced, because a +5 LA on a gestalt Pathfinder character in a post-apocalyptic scenario sounds rather underpowered. A +3 seems fair, and I could live with a +4. +2, as already mentioned, seems a little too much of a jump from the published number.

Kylarra
2010-02-08, 02:41 AM
You wouldn't be sacrificing any caster levels and you'd be getting a +8 to your primary casting stat at the cost of feat, and you're already a druid. That is patently ridiculous. (the aforementioned sentences are referring to you trying to get this for +2 LA only).

Break it up into 4 or 5 levels and see if you can take in on one side of your gestalt. You'll still be ridiculously strong, casting as a druid +2, but you'll, most likely, be frailer than your companions who can afford to take a martial class to pad their static values.

Xenogears
2010-02-08, 02:44 AM
Yeah it might just be best to see about progressing as normal but have one half of your Gestalt be empty until level 6 (IE Have the +5 LA fill up one side for five levels). Your still a Druid with a +2 Caster Level and stat boosts. Chances are your better than any of the other people just based on that.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 02:49 AM
You wouldn't be sacrificing any caster levels and you'd be getting a +8 to your primary casting stat at the cost of feat, and you're already a druid. That is patently ridiculous. (the aforementioned sentences are referring to you trying to get this for +2 LA only).

Break it up into 4 levels and see if you can take in on one side of your gestalt. You'll still be ridiculously strong, casting as a druid +2, but you'll, most likely, be frailer than your companions who can afford to take a martial class to pad their static values.

I see your point that the bonus to charisma and the spellcasting levels are potentially overpowered, and that asking for a +5 LA to be dropped to a +2 is a rather possible-game-breaking request. I think that +4 isn't a bad compromise, and it should be reasonable, considering that all of the core races have been improved since 3.5. However, in the two campaigns that I played in with this DM, I have never managed to be an overpowered druid. The first was the monster campaign, which was pretty much 13 fewer class levels than the other members of the party. The second campaign had 8 players, which meant that I wasn't as much of an impact on the power level of the party. Also, combat tends to take forever when you have that many players. Additionally, I'm not a fan of wild shape, so the many optimizations focusing on that feature have never, and probably never will be, much of a concern.

All things considered, I would rather have a lower level adjustment (obviously). Let me outline my thought process as to how I arrived at the relatively low LA of +2, as per the rules for determining level adjustment, as provided in Savage Species, the houri's spell like ability (full round action, daze all within 30 ft. DC 10 + 1/2 character levels + Cha modifier, usable 1/day) doesn't count for anything, and neither does the low-light vision or the immunity to mundane diseases and +4 on saving throws against magical diseases. They are medium humanoids with a base land speed of 30, so that's no level adjustment. They get some skills as class skills, but no racial bonuses, so there is no adjustment there. That leaves the spells and racial ability bonuses. Houri cast spells as a second level druid, and this stacks with actual druid levels (a first level houri druid casts spells as a third level druid, but has all other class features as the first level druid normally does). According to Savage Species, spellcasting ability is only worth a LA (of +1) when the race can cast spells at a level higher than a normal character of the same number of hit dice. So far, the houri has a LA of +1, from spellcasting. The ability adjustments are +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +8 Cha. The closest example to this is the nixie, which has -4 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +8 Cha. I think that the ability adjustments are roughly equal for the houri and the nixie, so that deserves a +1 LA, as opposed to a +2 LA, which Savage Species reserves for adjustments on par with those of the troll (which is only a +2 when played to its best ability and/or the campaign is significantly easier with +12 str).
So, based on the rules provided in Savage Species, a houri should have a level adjustment of +2. This is a big drop to the +5 presented in Bastards and Bloodlines (where the race comes from). Since +5 is a large LA, and +2 is so much lower than the original LA, we could increase the LA to +3, because the easily-obtained feat Lost Tradition (prereq is race with spellcasting ability - i have that, and taken at first level - easy enough) makes the racial +8 Cha much more useful for spellcasting, and is significantly better than the +2 Wis that would normally benefit a druid, and this could conceivably merit an additional +1 LA. If the DM doesn't agree with my analysis, I could say that I would fill my usual role of the Fail Druid (a druid who is virtually useless - I still don't know how I manage to pull it off) by increasing the LA by another +1, to a total of +4, which is fair, considering all of the base races have been improved, so the LA should be lowered to compensate for better +0 LA races.
However, I have been told by more experienced players that Savage Species has many rules that are easily abused. The example that is the most atrocious, IMO, is Pun-Pun, who gets his powers by using the Assume Supernatural Ability feat.

To recap - Savage Species rules can produce broken characters. Use the rules to determine appropriate LA for the houri. Increase because of possible broken characters / nice synergy between racial benefits. Increase again if DM doesn't agree on fair assessment, stating that all core Pathfinder races have been improved, so the LA for the houri should be +4, not +5, to compensate. If that doesn't work, say that if the LA is +5, as presented in Bastards and Bloodlines, I'll be forced to play as the Fail Druid, and be that player character who is utterly useless (well, I'm not utterly useless, just mostly useless. Going back to my previous experiences with high LAs in the monster campaign I played as a Nymph Druid, the 2 other party members were a Minotaur Crusader and a Weretiger Monk. I was the healer, and even then, the Crusader had a maneuver (is that what the Crusader abilities are called? I don't remember) that healed every ally within far-enough-that-we-don't-need-a-healer. So I was the healer who could be replaced by the Minotaur.)


The rules thing sounds like you just need to talk to your DM in general about what's going on, and probably talk with everyone else to see if they're getting as worked up by rules deviations as you are. I don't personally see a particular problem with arbitrating disputes by fiat on the fly, but I generally look things up after the session is over to know what "should" have gone on.

I understand that the DM may need to make a decision on the fly. That's necessary to keep the game moving. But when this happens, I expect the DM to give a reason that is something along the lines of campaign plot, not DM powers. This goes with the fact that one of my personal core principles is understanding why things happen. I absolutely cannot stand it when there is something I am interested in that I do not understand.
However, this DM, in my opinion, abuses the power to make arbitrary decisions. In the monster campaign, one of the other characters was a weretiger monk who grappled everything within a pounce range. At one point, we were fighting a lich. The DM decided that the lich would cast cone of cold, and that despite the fact that the monk should get a reflex save (even with the rule, not sure if it is homebrew or not, that you are denied a reflex save if you are unable to get outside the area of a spell by moving your speed), the monk was denied the save because the DM said so. A weretiger monk. Denied a relfex save. Being the party healer, I healed the monk, who then proceeded to grapple the lich. It died, but not before the DM managed to find the only spell that it could cast while grappled (shout - gotta love it!). Seeing as the monk had just been arbitrarily denied a reflex save, it was decent of the DM to take the time to find the only spell without a somatic component, and use it, as opposed to arbitrarily ruling that the lich could cast a spell, even one with a somatic component, in a grapple.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-08, 07:32 AM
Pathfinder doesn't use LA, they use CR.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html


Since CR is lower than LA (usually), this is better.

BobVosh
2010-02-08, 08:22 AM
Don't forget that every 3 levels you reduce the CR by one (in effect you gain two levels, instead of 1)

So with the 5 you will double level at 8 and 11.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 08:24 AM
Pathfinder doesn't use LA, they use CR.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html


Since CR is lower than LA (usually), this is better.

I know that Pathfinder doesn't use LA. However, the houri is presented as a race, not a monster, so it only gives a LA, no CR is provided. Also, it's from a 3.0 book, so the "class" skills needed to be adapted to Pathfinder (which was no problem at all).
Since there is no CR presented, I have no real choice other than gauge an appropriate LA and use the rules that were in 3.5, because that is the best I can do with the current Pathfinder rules. It has been said that Paizo may eventually publish a Savage Species equivalent for Pathfinder, but such a book does not exist as of now, so I must use the resources that I can.


Don't forget that every 3 levels you reduce the CR by one (in effect you gain two levels, instead of 1)

So with the 5 you will double level at 8 and 11.

Is that in Pathfinder? If so, would you please cite your source? The closest to that that I know of is the "Reducing Level Adjustments", from Unearthed Arcana. I am familiar with this rule, and, for creating characters above first level, works wonderfully. But if you progress from level 1 onwards, it becomes trickier, since you must pay XP to actually buy off the level adjustments.
The same argument as stated in the beginning of this post applies to this rule as well, since the houri is not given a CR, only a LA. It's from 3.0, too, so the LA probably isn't as good of a indicator of its power as a PC race in Pathfinder as it was back in 3.0, considering all of the core races have been improved.

Aharon
2010-02-08, 08:47 AM
I would just ask your DM to reconsider his position on the Half-Fey template. Story is mutable, and frankly, I don't understand why Half-Fey should be less suited than Houri.

Depending on how long the campaing lasts, you may be able to buy of one level of the adjustment at 15th level, leaving you only two caster levels behind - assuming unearthed arcana is allowed.

Or, if those options don't satisfy you, aren't there any other races in the same book that have a lower LA and fit equally well?
It's been a long time since I read it, as it belongs to a friend I haven't seen for over two years.

Dyllan
2010-02-08, 08:56 AM
Look at the link he posted - it includes the CR free "buyoff" rules in it. Second paragraph, I believe.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 09:09 AM
I would just ask your DM to reconsider his position on the Half-Fey template. Story is mutable, and frankly, I don't understand why Half-Fey should be less suited than Houri.

Depending on how long the campaing lasts, you may be able to buy of one level of the adjustment at 15th level, leaving you only two caster levels behind - assuming unearthed arcana is allowed.

Or, if those options don't satisfy you, aren't there any other races in the same book that have a lower LA and fit equally well?
It's been a long time since I read it, as it belongs to a friend I haven't seen for over two years.

The half-fey has wings. For a party of first level adventurers, even gestalt ones, that's rather overpowered. Also, there's the spell-like abilities, and those are cumulative (you get the ones for your level, and all levels below it). And IIRC there are also some decent ability adjustments. Sure, its a nice race, but it just doesn't suit me. I would rather play the houri, considering it fits the story better. However, if the DM refuses to lower the LA to anything reasonable, I may have to change my race. Which would mean, of course, that I would have to completely recreate my character, considering the fact that I built my character around having 2 diving spellcasting classes, one spontaneous and the other prepared, that are both driven by my 26 charisma. If I can't be a charisma based druid, then I'd probably just be something else that could be fun, like maybe a oracle/paladin gestalt. That sounds promising.

Also, I can post the rules for the LA buyoff, houri racial traits, the lost tradition feat, etc. because I have all of the books I'm referencing in PDF. Just let me know which text you want me to post, and then it can be here, in this thread, for quick reference.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-08, 09:52 AM
Are you sure it has no CR? Every race has a CR listing (except humans) in Monster Manual.

Xenogears
2010-02-08, 09:55 AM
Are you sure it has no CR? Every race has a CR listing (except humans) in Monster Manual.

It's from Bastards and Bloodlines. Thats A) Third Party and B) Entirely devoted to half-X templates (AFAIK). So it seems likely they don't have one.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-08, 10:10 AM
Do you have heart set on that race?

Check out the sample characters of the race: maybe they list CR. I know the template in the book do.

Another option: Bloodlines
They are similar to level adjustments you take after level 1.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

Fey Bloodline might fit.

Raewyn
2010-02-08, 10:32 AM
The half-fey has wings. For a party of first level adventurers, even gestalt ones, that's rather overpowered. Also, there's the spell-like abilities, and those are cumulative (you get the ones for your level, and all levels below it).

So... maybe have your DM take away the wings and re-evaluate the SLAs?

Kylarra
2010-02-08, 10:33 AM
Maybe you just need to get a new DM, honestly.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 11:18 AM
Maybe you just need to get a new DM, honestly.

That's the thing. There are sort of 2 DMs. One did the first campaign, that ended up destroying the world. He said that one of our players, who DMs another campaign on a weekly basis, will DM the campaign that revolves around the children of the characters of the first campaign. They are both rather capable DMs, and I think that I just need to learn how to discuss rules with a DM. Since the second campaign is the one I'm having trouble with, that's the DM who I'm concerned about. The DM for the first campaign just can't handle all of the work involved, so he said that he'll only do the first campaign (which he will take a break from to play as the child of the DM of the second campaign, because her character has two children who survived the slaughter by the false god). In my opinion, the first DM is more reasonable. Maybe I should ask him for guidance in this matter... I could really use the +1 on my diplomacy check :smallwink:

On another note, how can I say "you are abusing your powers" without being rude?
Here's a link to the screenshot of the section of Bastards and Bloodlines covering the houri racial traits (third time editing this post -- didn't realize that I'm supposed to link if the image is over 500K): http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~gfrederi/res/houri_racial_traits.png
Also, just to make sure I'm not violating the forum rules, and that I'm reading those rules right, if the copyright page of Bastards and Bloodlines states that, among other things, the racial traits for the races presented are designated as Open Game Content, then I am free to post a link to a screenshot of the page containing that material. Is that an accurate statement? Or should I just paraphrase the racial traits?

Yeah... I'm pretty much set on using the houri, but if the DM refuses to lower the level adjustment at all, then I'll probably end up switching. Her reason for not listening to my argument was "the book says +5. Deal with it." That was a 3.0 book. The Pathfinder base races would, by those standards, deserve a level adjustment. So it would figure that the level adjustments presented in the old book are no longer accurate, and should accordingly be lowered.

Aharon
2010-02-08, 11:41 AM
Well, the thing is - he isn't abusing his powers. It's perfectly in his rights to keep close to the rules in the books.

Before pushing the subject further, I would ask the other players what they are going to play. If they bring ridiculously powerful builds to the table, your request is far more reasonable than if they don't optimize.

You could also bring up examples where the books are obviously unbalanced, like the fact that Pathfinder still has the Candle of Invocation.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 11:46 AM
Well, the thing is - he isn't abusing his powers. It's perfectly in his rights to keep close to the rules in the books.

Before pushing the subject further, I would ask the other players what they are going to play. If they bring ridiculously powerful builds to the table, your request is far more reasonable than if they don't optimize.

You could also bring up examples where the books are obviously unbalanced, like the fact that Pathfinder still has the Candle of Invocation.

Hrm... I'm not familiar with the Candle of Invocation. All that I can remember is that we have assassins who are sisters, and a half-fiend human sorcerer with the Celestial bloodline (that kid will eventually have 2 bat wings and 2 feathered wings. Not sure how that fly speed/maneuverability will work out...) But as far as the other 2 characters go, I don't know. There are 6 players in this campaign. And its gestalt. So it's going to be stronger than the average non-gestalt, four player party campaign to begin with.


As far as keeping close to the rules in the book - I understand that its less work for the DM to just say "use the rules in the book". They are like that for a reason -- the author(s) thought about the pros and cons of each racial trait, and assigned a LA accordingly. However, let us compare the Pathfinder core races with the 3.0 core races. The Pathfinder races are clearly superior. So, by comparison, the houri is weaker compared to the base races in Pathfinder than it was compared to the base races in 3.0, and, as such, should have its level adjustment reduced by 1. Any more changes to the LA would have to be based on analyzing the racial traits... which isn't at all an exact process. I ended up with +2 based on the rules in Savage Species. +3 is a better representation of the racial advantages, however.

satorian
2010-02-08, 12:11 PM
See if you can get him to compromise. Present it as a compromise. We all know that high LA characters are gimped, and for spellcasters, nearly all LA characters are gimped. So suggest a combination of the stuff folks suggested above, simply to prevent you being gimped. Put your LA on one side of the gestalt only. Use either LA buyoff or the CR double level thing mentioned above. Also remind him that pathfinder recommends reducing most LAs by 1 as a nod to the increased strength of base classes.

What will happen to you if you do this: you will be LA4 on one side and full class on the other at low levels, where you will be boosted by your increased racial strength. Then you will buy off a couple of those levels over time as your new class goes up. In the end, you will be slightly weaker than the others on one side (with a final LA of 2 or 3) but you'll have your ability boosts and free druid levels to make up for it. Balance. tadaa!

Riffington
2010-02-08, 12:15 PM
A few points regarding LA:
*the Houri's and Nixie's attribute bonuses merit a +2 to +3 by themselves. Savage Species doesn't really present good guidelines.
*Whether LA counts for one side of Gestalt or both makes a big difference in whether LA is worth it. The rules imply both, but people who want to help out weak-for-their-LA creatures like to allow it on just one side.
*But note that even then the spellcasting boost doesn't help as much in Gestalt as you want it to. If you count the LA on one side, it's boosting the Druid casting on that side. So you couldn't take Druid on the other side during that level (or you could, but they wouldn't both boost Druid spellcasting).

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 12:20 PM
*But note that even then the spellcasting boost doesn't help as much in Gestalt as you want it to. If you count the LA on one side, it's boosting the Druid casting on that side. So you couldn't take Druid on the other side during that level (or you could, but they wouldn't both boost Druid spellcasting).

Why would it not stack? The racial traits say that the houri bonus to druid spellcasting stacks with actual druid levels. Would a gestalt character negate that aspect of the race? If so, that would mean that the race would be weaker, because the bonus to spellcasting doesn't work any more. Is that what you're saying, or am I misinterpreting?


Also remind him that pathfinder recommends reducing most LAs by 1 as a nod to the increased strength of base classes.

Where does it say this? I like the sound of that, and if the core rulebooks say this, then I will be satisfied. I would prefer only having to deal with a LA of +3, but +4 is doable for me.

Nerdanel
2010-02-08, 12:22 PM
Use the Half-Nymph template applied on an elf. It's from Dragon magazine, but the Crystalkeep template list has it. It's CR +2 and LA +3, so it's less onerous in that respect. Dex +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. It becomes a Fey and can make humanoids Shaken with its Awesome Beauty ability if they fail a save.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 12:24 PM
Use the Half-Nymph template applied on an elf. It's from Dragon magazine, but the Crystalkeep template list has it. It's CR +2 and LA +3, so it's less onerous in that respect. Dex +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. It becomes a Fey and can make humanoids Shaken with its Awesome Beauty ability if they fail a save.

I am unfamiliar with the Crystalkeep template list. Is that a published book, or a website, or something else? Could you point me in the right direction? Also, would you happen to know which issue of Dragon magazine the template appeared in, because I may already have it, or, if not, I can probably get it.

This, at first, sounds like a nice compromise. However, the DM who is running the campaign in question has already stated a prejudice against rules presented in Dragon magazine, stating that they are generally overpowered, and that she would much rather avoid using them. I realized this when I asked her if my draconic elf bard ghost could buy the gauntlets of heartfelt blows. They give a bonus on unarmed attack/natural weapon damage equal to your charisma modifier, but in fire damage. I think she realized that ability drain combined with +10 fire damage (which would still go to the hit point, not ability) was a little too strong.
Anyways, she will probably say no to the template, unless I can give a really good reason as to why she should let me use it.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-08, 12:26 PM
I am unfamiliar with the Crystalkeep template list. Is that a published book, or a website, or something else? Could you point me in the right direction? Also, would you happen to know which issue of Dragon magazine the template appeared in, because I may already have it, or, if not, I can probably get it.

Crystalkeep is a gathering of almost all sources:
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/

Nerdanel
2010-02-08, 12:27 PM
The template list says it's from Dragon 313, page 95.

Crystalkeep is a website. They have pdf downloads of things like the template list. You can google for it if you need it.

Flickerdart
2010-02-08, 12:27 PM
Why would it not stack? The racial traits say that the houri bonus to druid spellcasting stacks with actual druid levels. Would a gestalt character negate that aspect of the race? If so, that would mean that the race would be weaker, because the bonus to spellcasting doesn't work any more. Is that what you're saying, or am I misinterpreting?

Because Gestalt only gives you one thing once. If you take Fighter on one side and Paladin on the other, you don't get +2 BAB. If you take two classes that advance Druidic casting, you only get one Druid level.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 12:35 PM
Because Gestalt only gives you one thing once. If you take Fighter on one side and Paladin on the other, you don't get +2 BAB. If you take two classes that advance Druidic casting, you only get one Druid level.

That makes a lot of sense. I had still been thinking of using the race as a race, not a racial class. I suppose that the racial class would change the way the racial traits are interpreted, such as spellcasting. An easy way to get around this would be to take druid once I finish with the racial levels. Oracle seems like it will be a lot of fun, and I'll get the full benefit of the race, albeit a little later. This will also help balance the casting, at least a little.
Thanks for pointing that out. However, I glanced slightly-more-than-briefly at the Savage Species rules for a racial class, and I did not see any rules as to how to design a racial class. How do I do this? Ideally, it would be nice if there a racial class for houri already existed, but I doubt that is the case. I understand that ability bonuses are gained over time, as opposed to all at once. Since I have no racial hit dice, that means ... what, exactly? That since I'm a gestalt character, I just get the other class's hit dice, right? I suppose this would be an effective balancing factor to the idea of level adjustment.

Flickerdart
2010-02-08, 12:44 PM
If you have no RHD, your first class level is a class level, then LA goes on top of that. At least, in a normal progression. You DM might let you get away with LA-only in Gestalt. There are no rules for progressions, really. Look over the stuff and see what a character of the appropriate level gets. Break up stat gains, too: you might start with +4 CHA, and gain another +2 CHA every other level.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-08, 12:52 PM
The template list says it's from Dragon 313, page 95.

Crystalkeep is a website. They have pdf downloads of things like the template list. You can google for it if you need it.

Thanks for the number of the issue. I didn't realize that Dragon was, at least for some time, published by Paizo. Seeing as we're playing in a Pathfinder game, which is by Paizo, that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to ask the DM to include another Paizo product... We're including playtest characters, but that isn't as far from the Pathfinder Core Rulebooks as Dragon and Dungeon magazine content. At least its another reason I can give as to why I should be allowed to use the template.

Also, if Pathfinder suggests lowering the level adjustment of any race that is from a previous edition, does that also apply to CR? If it does, then I could be a half-nymph with +0 LA, because I am required to apply the "young" template (from the Pathfinder Bestiary) to the character -- she, and the other 5 characters in the second campaign, are no older than 10 years old, and, as such, shouldn't follow the same rules as adult characters, or so the DM says... I personally think that a lowered damage dice (from being small) as well as a penalty to strength and con is rather debilitating, at least for melee characters. I had actually rolled well enough, for the houri character, to put an 18 in strength. Going from an 18 to 14 seems pretty steep for just a -1 LA.



If you have no RHD, your first class level is a class level, then LA goes on top of that. At least, in a normal progression. You DM might let you get away with LA-only in Gestalt. There are no rules for progressions, really. Look over the stuff and see what a character of the appropriate level gets. Break up stat gains, too: you might start with +4 CHA, and gain another +2 CHA every other level.

What do you mean by "LA-only"? Does that mean starting with full LA and racial traits, and two classes (the normal gestalt)? Because I'm pretty sure she already said that that is what she was going to do. I'm not sure I could convince her to take the time to make a racial class for the campaign, and I don't think I could make one that she would approve... And if I just start with the LA, I can always buy if off with XP as per Unearthed Arcana.


Use the Half-Nymph template applied on an elf. It's from Dragon magazine, but the Crystalkeep template list has it. It's CR +2 and LA +3, so it's less onerous in that respect. Dex +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. It becomes a Fey and can make humanoids Shaken with its Awesome Beauty ability if they fail a save.

The Awesome Beauty is, well, just that -- awesome. It seems better than the Dazzling Beauty of the houri, except that the DC is racial-hit-dace-dependent, as opposed to number-of-class-levels dependent. So, at higher levels, its worse. I still envy the nymph's unearthly grace -- that was a truly powerful ability. Especially if I had made Charisma my key casting ability, as opposed to sticking with Wisdom.
However, I still think that a +4 (or hopefully +3) for the houri is bettter than the +2 (or +1 if the LA is lowered due to powerful Pathfinder races) for the half-nymph is worth it because of the druid casting levels and because of the +8 Charisma. +4 isn't a whole lot compared to a that +8, and for a gestalt with two classes dependent on charisma for casting, that additional +4 is worth it, especially at lower levels.

Flickerdart
2010-02-08, 01:05 PM
What do you mean by "LA-only"? Does that mean starting with full LA and racial traits, and two classes (the normal gestalt)? Because I'm pretty sure she already said that that is what she was going to do. I'm not sure I could convince her to take the time to make a racial class for the campaign, and I don't think I could make one that she would approve... And if I just start with the LA, I can always buy if off with XP as per Unearthed Arcana.
As in, if your race has no RHD, you still need one hit die on that side before you start the LA. You put that on one side of the gestalt. On the other side, you have your regular class progression. If you're not starting at a level over the LA, you'll need a progression, otherwise you'll spend a few levels overpowered. But hey, if your DM allows that (full benefits before you level up through all your LA) then you shouldn't argue otherwise, hehe.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-14, 11:42 PM
There has been some progress with this issue. First, since I am dealing with two DMs, let me help differentiate them: the DM for the first campaign shall be called "John" and the DM for the second campaign (the campaign in which my character is the Houri) shall be called "Jane". So, I was talking with Jane about the level adjustment for the Houri, and she said that the reason she snapped at me was because she was having a bad day (she declared the culprit to be PMS). She said that she looked at the the racial features, and thought about how they would affect the campaign. She discussed this with me, and she decided upon a +2 LA for the Houri. She made it clear that this will obviously be overpowered at low levels, since I am starting off with all of the racial features, and not earning them through a racial class. She said that if it is clear that I am overpowered once the rest of the party has a chance to catch up to my level that she would change the LA accordingly. This was good news to me, and I almost altogether let the topic leave my mind. However, tonight, we played in the campaign that is run by John. While we were waiting for everyone to show up, including Jane, John pretty much flipped out when he heard that Jane had decided upon a LA of +2 for a race that was given +5 by the publisher of the book. His argument was the fact that I would get a total of +14 to abilities, and would cast spells as a character of two levels higher, which means that my spell levels (for druid spells) are one level higher than anything any other party member can cast. He didn't pay any attention to the fact that any race with a level adjustment that is used in Pathfinder and that was originally published in an earlier edition of the game should have its LA reduced by one to account for the increase in power of the Pathfinder base races. His attitude did not seem to change when I told him that Jane would adjust my LA if it were apparent that the current LA was not appropriate for my racial benefits. Nor was he affected when I said that, considering my past performances playing a druid, I would be unable to make the character overpowered; John stated that if I wasn't breaking the character then he, or someone else, would make sure that I did. I am concerned that John will convince Jane to push the LA for the Houri back up to +5. I really don't want this to happen, and I only have one week before the campaign with Jane as DM and me playing the Houri starts. I wouldn't be bummed if the LA were pushed up to +3, but +5 would be horrible. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can convince John that his argument has some flaws, and that the LA should be lower than +5. Additionally, how can I convince Jane that the LA should not be +5, and that although John's argument has truth to it, there is more to it than that. Jane has had multiple experiences of DMing games where I play a druid, in which I managed to contribute very little to the party other than sucking up a fraction of the XP that they were awarded. I believe that Jane does not want me to play the Fail Druid again, but I want to have a better argument than that to convince her to keep the LA low relative to the published value.

erikun
2010-02-15, 12:18 AM
Rather odd how you spend a paragraph stating that the DM should deliver fair, impartial rulings to all players involved, yet are asking him to ignore the fair, impartial, printed rulings in favor of your character individually. Huh.

Also, as you pointed out, the LA determined by Savage Species seems just about as randomly tacked on as the original. If a single feat can change a race from +2 LA to +3/+4 LA, then I seriously doubt that the race was truely a +2 LA to begin with.

The way I see it, your best options at this point are:

1.) Ask your DM if you can homebrew a half-elf/half-nymph race, and try to keep it fair for a +0 LA. This will give you what you want without becoming overly powerful in the beginning/overly weak at later levels. Just avoid cherry-picking abilities useful to your character, and pick abilities that are thematically appropriate instead.

2.) Ask your DM if your LA can apply to one side of the gestalt, or if not, split it between the two sides. Putting +2 LA on the druid side will give you full druid spellcasting throughout your career, after all.

Also, you might want to check what everyone else is playing next generation. If your group now consists of a half-giant, a half-medusa, and a dwarf/gnome/illithid, then your +5 LA may not be that big of a concern.


Let me outline my thought process as to how I arrived at the relatively low LA of +2, as per the rules for determining level adjustment, as provided in Savage Species, the houri's spell like ability (full round action, daze all within 30 ft. DC 10 + 1/2 character levels + Cha modifier, usable 1/day) doesn't count for anything,
This is Color Spray with a DC that automatically scales with level, and is based off your primary stat. It may not be powerful, but it will still be useful for awhile.



and neither does the low-light vision or the immunity to mundane diseases and +4 on saving throws against magical diseases.
Low-light vision doesn't count? Well, I'd say that the +4 save on magical diseases does. Bonuses to resist Mummy Rot, not to mention Lycanthropy, can turn out pretty handy.


They are medium humanoids with a base land speed of 30, so that's no level adjustment. They get some skills as class skills, but no racial bonuses, so there is no adjustment there.
How do they get class skills? Do they have RHD? Or are they always class skills for any class the Houri takes? Because the latter is immensely useful.

Or does LA provide skill points in Pathfinder?


That leaves the spells and racial ability bonuses. Houri cast spells as a second level druid, and this stacks with actual druid levels (a first level houri druid casts spells as a third level druid, but has all other class features as the first level druid normally does). According to Savage Species, spellcasting ability is only worth a LA (of +1) when the race can cast spells at a level higher than a normal character of the same number of hit dice. So far, the houri has a LA of +1, from spellcasting.
Uh... 2nd level spellcasting would be worthy of +2 LA, at least. This wouldn't be the case if the Houri had RHD, but if we're just talking about LA, it should at least be equal to the spellcasting granted by the racial ability. This is one point where I strongly disagree with Savage Species.


The ability adjustments are +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +8 Cha. The closest example to this is the nixie, which has -4 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +8 Cha. I think that the ability adjustments are roughly equal for the houri and the nixie, so that deserves a +1 LA, as opposed to a +2 LA, which Savage Species reserves for adjustments on par with those of the troll (which is only a +2 when played to its best ability and/or the campaign is significantly easier with +12 str).
Alright, I see the point. Well, somewhat. A race that just gave +8 to a single stat would be horribly overpowered at +1 LA. This is especially true given that you won't be using one, but two spellcasting classes based off CHA, leveling them both at the same time.


So, based on the rules provided in Savage Species, a houri should have a level adjustment of +2. This is a big drop to the +5 presented in Bastards and Bloodlines (where the race comes from). Since +5 is a large LA, and +2 is so much lower than the original LA, we could increase the LA to +3, because the easily-obtained feat Lost Tradition (prereq is race with spellcasting ability - i have that, and taken at first level - easy enough) makes the racial +8 Cha much more useful for spellcasting, and is significantly better than the +2 Wis that would normally benefit a druid, and this could conceivably merit an additional +1 LA. If the DM doesn't agree with my analysis, I could say that I would fill my usual role of the Fail Druid (a druid who is virtually useless - I still don't know how I manage to pull it off) by increasing the LA by another +1, to a total of +4, which is fair, considering all of the base races have been improved, so the LA should be lowered to compensate for better +0 LA races.
I have to disagree with the Savage Species analysis. If Bloodlines is grossly overstating the LA, than Savave Species is grossly understating it. I would place it at +4 LA, although I would also either place the full LA on side of the gestalt, or split it up between both sides (so that each has a +2 LA).

erikun
2010-02-15, 12:35 AM
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can convince John that his argument has some flaws, and that the LA should be lower than +5. Additionally, how can I convince Jane that the LA should not be +5, and that although John's argument has truth to it, there is more to it than that.
Bah, double post. That's what I get for not reading the full thread first.

First point: Congratulations! It looks like your DM is reasonable after all.

Obviously, given my previous post, I can't offer much advice on how to sell John that the Houri are a +2 LA race, as I clearly don't think they are. On the other hand, you can point out that LA rarely helps non-melee classes, especially spellcasters. Your +2 LA Houri Sorcerer will have to wait until 8th level before casting Fireball or anything similar, and having 2 extra spell slots from high CHA really isn't going to make up for that.

If you're just trying to convince him that +5 LA is too much, point out the obvious. A +2 LA Houri Druid has the same spellcasting as a regular Druid, but gets all abilities (including Wild Shape) and skills two levels later. The +2 LA Houri Sorcerer, as mentioned before, is held back for her full career. And note that this is assuming the optional feat granting CHA spellcasting to the Druid. Without it, you'll be playing a Druid without bonus spells and a Sorcerer two levels behind everyone else.

If you want to be scheming, I'd recommend trying to pass him on +3 LA. Also, get a clear idea on how LA applies to your game. +2 LA would be fair if it applied to both sides of the gestalt, but +3/+4 is only fair when you apply it to only one side.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-15, 01:11 AM
The first DM, John, is the one who is not running the campaign in which I am playing the Houri. Jane is running that campaign. I also forgot to mention in the thread (I mentioned it John, and it seemed to do the trick) that Jane is the one who found the Houri race, and suggested that I use it for the campaign that she would end up running.

Now to address thei other points (in no particular order):
I included a link to an image of the Houri racial traits in an earlier post, and as far as skills go, the only skills that I get from Houri that I don't already get from Oracle or Druid are Bluff and Perform. Since I have the highest Charisma out of the party (due to the 18 I rolled, and the +8 racial), I will end up being the party leader. Since I'm a Druid/Oracle gestalt character who is party leader, I probably won't have any need for Perform. Bluff could come in handy, but I'll have plenty of Diplomacy, and we may also have a character with Bluff, or at least Intimidate, which could be substituted with a high enough check. I understand the game mechanics rather well, but when it comes to roleplaying, and figuring things out in general, I tend to flounder. This will give me a chance to "learn by doing" (funny how our school's motto actually applies to Dungeons and Dragons, not just teaching methods).
The Dazzling Beauty spell-like ability will come in handy, but I can only use it once per day, and the range is only 30 feet. I'll probably end up using this for bosses and especially large or troublesome groups.
The reason I immediately said that low-light vision should not grant a LA is because virtually all base races have it, save for the human, dwarf and half-orc (who have darkvision instead), and halflings. Since about half of the base races get that same trait, I did not think it worthy of a LA.
On the same note, quite a few base races get bonuses to saving throws (of various sorts). In my opinion, the dwarf bonuses versus poisons, spells, and spell-like abilities is much more useful than the Houri's immunity to mundane diseases and +4 on saves versus all other diseases. I have had to save against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities at least once per session (there may have been some that didn't, but only because they were pure roleplaying sessions). I do not recall ever having to save against a mundane disease (does scurvy count? We were traveling for about a month at sea in John's campaign, and we took Con damage until we were able to get fruit.), and the only magical disease I can think of that I have had to save against is Lycanthropy. However, in Pathfinder, Lycanthropy is a Curse, not a disease. Mummy rot is both a curse and a disease, so it would be up to the DM whether or not my racial +4 would apply to that.
I can understand how having two effective class levels for the purpose of spellcasting could be overpowered, and I would accept having to take a LA of +2 instead of +1 for that aspect of the race, but as I mentioned in my analysis, I was using the rules specified in the only book I could find that had rules determining level adjustment. This is sort of a moot point, considering Pathfinder does not use the term "level adjustment", and instead bases the penalty associated with playing a non-base race off of the race's CR. However, Jane said that because the race is significantly more powerful than the base races that she would use the rules for level adjustment instead of the rules that Pathfinder has, at least because Bastards and Bloodlines only gives an LA for the Houri, and does not include a CR.
John has a valid point that I get a total of +14 to abilities. However, I do not recall if I mentioned in this thread that, in Jane's campaign, we are playing as the children of the characters in John's campaign, and, as such, we are required to apply the "Young creature" template, from the back of the Pathfinder Bestiary, to the characters. The young creature template gives -4 Str, -4 Con, and makes you small (which includes +1 AC, +1 on attack rolls, -1 to CMB and CMD, smaller damage dice because of small weapons, +4 on Stealth, and a slower move speed). The young creature template reduces the CR by 1, but because every party member is using it, Jane said that it won't affect my character's LA (even though it should, and I would like to have a lower LA). As I have said earlier, we are gestalt characters (which increases the party's level or whatever the equivalent measure is in Pathfinder) by 1. Also, there are 6 members, which also increases the party level by 1. However, with the young creature template, we go back down to a level 2 party. Depending on my LA, my ECL could be high enough to bump us up to a level 3 party, in which case I would have to use all of my racial benefits in order for us just to survive.

This may not cover all of your concerns, but it's what came to mind. Obviously, none of you are in our party, so I may be leaving some things out that are relative and applicable to this discussion.
As far as the actual numbers go, I wouldn't be very bummed if I ended up with +4 LA, I would be content with a +3 LA, and I would be happily satisfied with a +2 LA.
If there is something that isn't clear, or could be made clearer, please ask.


Now to address the points in your second post. Just to clarify, John is the DM for the first campaign, in which my half-elf druid became the muse of a nymph (it used its Inspiration special ability on me), got married, realized that the one nymph was actually twin nymphs, and had 8 kids. Jane is the DM of the second campaign, in which I will be playing one of those kids. Jane is a player in the first campaign, and John will be a player in the second campaign. Since we were saving the world over a period of time (including going back in time to avoid the "oh you ran out of time and the world got killed" deal, as per John's instructions), we had lots of kids. Not just me. Jane and her real-life boyfriend had kids in game (6, I believe), and he will be playing one of them in Jane's campaign. Since two of our six players did not have kids, they will be playing "adopted" children (they'll probably end up being base races, though). As stated in an earlier post, one of the players will be playing a half-fiend sorcerer with the celestial bloodline, both to give a reason as to why the character ISN'T evil, and because contradictions are fun. Going back to the other points, I'll be playing a gestalt druid oracle. Sorcerer is the half-fiend. I realize that sorcerers use charisma, but the closest I've come to an arcane caster is a bard (who doesn't get a full 10 levels of spells, so it's not a COMPLETE arcane caster). Instead, I'm an oracle, which is to the cleric as sorcerer is to the wizard (I JUST realized that). And the Lost Tradition feat lets me use charisma for my druid's key spellcasting ability, so I win there, too. It took me a moment to understand how you were looking at the LA. I'll probably be starting out at level one with full racial abilities, with no need for one of my gestalt classes to be a racial class, because Jane is nice that way. That was one of John's concerns, that I would have an extra spell level above everyone else in the party. We are all starting at level one, including me, with the level adjustment. Did I cover everything that you wrote while I was writing my response to your post?

Riffington
2010-02-15, 05:31 AM
It doesn't sound like you and two DMs will all be happy with this race as printed.

Why don't you try to fit in a fair set of racial adjustments into a no LA (for Pathfinder) race?

*+2 Cha +2 Wis -2 Con
*low-light vision
*immunity to mundane diseases
*+4 on saving throws against magical diseases
*Daze for 1 round.
*Keep the "class skills" thing.

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-15, 06:04 AM
It doesn't sound like you and two DMs will all be happy with this race as printed.

Why don't you try to fit in a fair set of racial adjustments into a no LA (for Pathfinder) race?

*+2 Cha +2 Wis -2 Con
*low-light vision
*immunity to mundane diseases
*+4 on saving throws against magical diseases
*Daze for 1 round.
*Keep the "class skills" thing.

This may sound like a good idea, but I was pretty much basing my role in the party around the +2 spellcasting levels, the +8 charisma, and the feat that lets my druid spellcasting be driven by charisma instead of wisdom. I had no real plan until Jane showed me Houri, of course. John was saying that I would have to be some non core race, because I would be playing the kid of a half-elf and a nymph, and, because he is the DM for that campaign, said while that the child's race would not be set in stone until character creation, it would have to be extremely fey-related, along the lines of half nymph. Jane found the Houri in Bastards and Bloodlines, and she thought it was a good idea, since an Elf/Nymph cross is a reasonable offspring of a Half-Elf and a Nymph. Also, John said that what Jane allows goes, seeing as Jane is the DM of the kiddie campaign, and not John. Also, where does that -2 Con come from? Nymphs have no Con modifier that I know of, and Half-Elfs get +2 an ability of the player's choice, in my case it was Wisdom to compliment my Druid casting. That -2 combined with the -4 from the young creature template would put me at a nice -6 Con modifier. Unless I put one of my better rolls into Constitution, I'll be a character with about as many hit points as a primary arcane caster. For a druid, who is pretty much designed to engage in melee at times, that wouldn't work. And the DM would pick on me ... with ranged weapons. My Oracle's Curse is clouded vision. If I don't see the attack coming, then I don't get my Charisma bonus to AC (from my Nature's Whispers revelation, from the Nature mystery). Which would put my AC at 11, from my armor. I would be a pincushion. Jane has done this before, except with several harpies full attacking me. It wasn't pretty. I think we were about 5th level at the time, and I went from full, or almost full, health to -10 dead in one round. I don't want to do that again. Going all the way back to the no LA bit, I really don't mind dealing with a +3 LA, I would settle for a +4, and would be really happy with a +2. A +1 would make me feel a little guilty, and Jane already said that she will not go that low. I've dealt with it before, I played in a one-shot-turned-actual-campaign in which my draconic elf bard was killed with Con damage (I had 16 Con, and she killed me!). I decided to come back as a ghost. AMAZING. Anyways... yeah, as long as I don't have a +5 LA, and preferably not a +4, I'll be fine. This is all tentative, of course. If John's character manages to be stronger than mine, which, considering his many more experiences with DnD, and much more extensive knowledge of Pathfinder, is surprisingly likely, I think I should be fine. Just have to placate John and re-convince Jane...

EDIT:
So, I talked to Jane today, and she said that she had been thinking about what John had been saying. Jane said that I'll probably have to end up taking the half-nymph template from Dragon #313 and add it to a half-elf (which would be a slightly better representation of the character, as far as the story goes). My primary concern is that my whole plan for the character becomes null and void, since Jane won't let me take the Lost Tradition feat with the half-nymph template. I'll end up with a +1 CR, because of the young creature template, but I'll have to split my casting between Wisdom and Charisma. I don't particularly want to do this. I suppose that I could be something other than a druid, but this idea seems extremely alien to me. How can I convince Jane to let me play as the Houri, with a reasonable +3 LA? As a reminder, John's primary concerns are the +2 levels of druid for spellcasting purposes only and the net +14 to abilities.

Runeclaw
2010-02-16, 02:35 AM
Since your group appears to be open to material from various sources, you might want to take a look at Rich's feats for a Fey Druid (here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/3CsX278ZDGQQ62al3RP.html)) - seems to fit your concept.

Sophismata
2010-02-16, 05:58 AM
Increase the LA to +6 and make it count for one side of the Gestalt. Alternatively, decrease the LA to +3 and make it count for both sides of the Gestalt. In either case, you need to convert the LA to some sort of level progression.

eg (you'll need to divvy up SQ's and SLA's yourself):

Lesser Houri

+2 Cha, +2 Dex


LA 1: +1 Druid Spellcasting
LA 2: +2 Wis, +2 Cha
LA 3: +1 Druid Spellcasting
LA 4: +2 Int, +2 Cha
LA 5: SLA's
LA 6: SQ's, +2 Cha

That takes one side of Gestalt, the other side you can take whatever you want. Remember that Druid spellcasting levels don't stack if you take them simultaneously.


Alternatively:

Lesser Houri

Check MM for typical race BAB, Saves and HD
+2 Cha, +2 Int

RHD 1: +1 Druid Spellcasting, +2 Cha, +2 Dex
RHD 2: +1 Druid Spellcasting, +2 Cha, +2 Int
RHD 3: SLA's, SQ'a, +2 Cha

bobbaganoosh
2010-02-20, 05:04 AM
It has been decided. I will not actually be playing a Houri. Instead, I will be playing a half-elf with the half-nymph template. Jane declared that because I already get a lot of ability bonuses that I will lose the +2 ability bonus from being a half-elf. Also, my Amazing Beauty is not going to be at will, instead, it will be once per day per 3 levels, and at will at level 15 (I'll see if I can get her to increase the rate at which it improves, maybe one additional use at every odd level). One use of Amazing Beauty means one activation and one deactivation, so at low levels it will be difficult to use effectively. Jane declared that those changes lower my CR from +2 to +1, and with the Young creature template, my CR is +0. This means that I level at the same rate as every other party member. It would be nice if Jane let me take the Fey Blood feat (from Fey Druids, in the "Gaming" section of GiantITP), because then I could ignore Wisdom. However, since Jane is enforcing John's rule that each of a character's gestalt class choices must use a different key ability, I am led to believe that Jane will deny my wish.