Xykon is an idiot-

[Vaarsuvius4181]

well, we basically all know that, but the fact that you even clicked on this means perhaps someone on these forums has figured out some things you havnt. They were not hard to figure out, but some things just suprised me.

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?

[Narazil]

well, we basically all know that, but the fact that you even clicked on this means perhaps someone on these forums has figured out some things you havnt. They were not hard to figure out, but some things just suprised me.

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?
He's not an idiot. He's flawed, like everyone else is.

No one is perfect, not Xykon, Redcloak, OOTS or us. Yes, he should not have put Redcloak's eye out logically, but he was angry and is prone to making bad decisions whilst so.

[paddyfool]

Re 1: The army was a distraction, which neither Redcloak nor Xykon really cared about when planning the battle. Also, attacking in the day allowed them to make a psychological impression with their numbers, and probably made it all a little easier to draw too.

[Belkster11]

well, we basically all know that, but the fact that you even clicked on this means perhaps someone on these forums has figured out some things you havnt. They were not hard to figure out, but some things just suprised me.

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?


1) They do, but if you plan on just all-out brawling with the enemy, it's best to do it in the daytime so the soldiers can actually see what they're doing. Night fights are only if you plan on doing infiltration or some sort of secret mission that requires stealth. Skirmishes can erupt during this, but not all-out battles.

2) Xykon (or Reddy) probably felt the good guys could pull off a spell that could teleport Xykon's phylacetry to them. Plus, Xykon trusted Redcloak to protect the phylacetry.

3) The loss of an eye is only a minor hinderance. Plenty of warriors/leaders have fought battles with one eye (Horatio Nelson). Also, Xykon doesn't really care about Reddy's feelings, was in a fit of rage at the time and wasn't thinking clearly.

[Ancalagon]

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

Yeah. What was he thinking. If he had attacked at night, he totally and clearly would have won the battle. Oh... wait... hum... never mind.


2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

Err, what? The phylactery is protected from Divination. They did not even assume they'd loose it. They only feared someone else might find it in case it is stashed somewhere.
The choices what spells are put on the thing are valid conclusions so they are in no way a proof for stupidity.


3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?

Ever thought about the psycological impact this has on Redcloak? Xykon WANTS Redcloak to harbour feelings. To remember. To be afraid. "Its better to be feared". I bet Xykon really laughs over the thought that Redcloak might even outright hate him (and still remains the servant).
Get Start of Darkness and you know why Xykon does not think an uprising started by Goblins is an issue. And even if Redcloak did that... I think that Xykon could easily dispose of thousands of goblins before he runs of spells (and has to escape. Xyon can fly, you know?)

All the points listed are not signs that Xykon is an idiot. Thy are all invalid to support that claim.

PS: Please quote all those war-books that state you "always must attack at night".

[Morthis]

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

He doesn't care for strategy, he's made that plenty clear. I also don't see what attacking at night would have helped when you have no chance at any element of surprise anyway (the good guys had divination magic available and knew the army was coming).

Also on that note, there was virtually no chance the bad guys were going to lose that one. Xykon could have killed the entire city by himself if given enough days (and he's got plenty of time). Considering he pretty much doesn't care about anything living, I don't see why he would feel the need to save hobgoblins when he could send them to their death without putting much of a dent in his army (since animate dead would bring back most losses).


2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

He might lose things, but Redcloak doesn't. He's pretty much the polar opposite compared to Xykon when it comes to that. Also, this is Redcloak's holy symbol we're talking about here, it very much appears that in oots, clerics need it to cast most of their spells (I think under standard rules it's only needed to turn undead).

So considering that his phylactery is worn by the same guy who color codes gate locations and plans everything to the most minute details, yeah I'd say it's safe to assume he won't lose it. Putting a ton of abjuration spells on it to keep it safe is just a smart thing to do.


3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?

To teach him a lesson? To remind him of SoD events? If anything, I think this just reinforced RC's dedication to the cause, simply because it reminds him of SoD events.

SoD

It's been made plenty clear in SoD that RC is very unlikely to betray Xykon because doing so would mean RC killed his own brother for nothing. After this Xykon also made it plenty clear that in this "relationship", RC is the bitch. By reinforcing his authority here and reminding RC of Right-Eye, I don't think he's driving RC away, he's simply reminding RC of the reason why he still follows Xykon and ensuring he knows what his place in team evil is (namely that of a follower who does what Xykon tells him to do).

[Analytica]

Well, technically, I suppose the goblinoids have low-light vision or the like. But maybe the siege engines couldn't be aimed in the dark.

Regardless, other things I feel make abundantly clear that Xykon indeed IS an idiot. Consider every conversation he has with Redcloak about strategy consisting of the latter repeating obviously true and important facts, with Xykon eventually responding something like "... sorry, what did you day? Sorta zoned out there thinking about killing people... yum..." An extremely charismatic idiot, but an idiot nonetheless. He might very well have single-digit Intelligence and Wisdom stats, as he is a pure sorcerer.

[hamishspence]

In SoD, when Xykon gains +2 Int for becoming a lich, the roaches comment "4th grade reading level, here we come."

His Wis is probably a bit below par as well.

[factotum]

1) In the mediaeval period (which OotS is roughly equivalent to), battles would generally take place during daylight hours because otherwise you simply couldn't tell friend from foe during the melee. That would be less of an issue when your side are goblins and the enemy are human, of course, but it's still something to bear in mind.

2) The phylactery was in Redcloak's possession, and he's not lost it in more than 30 years...in fact, the occasion we're talking about may be the first time he's not had it round his neck in that time period. Therefore Xykon probably thought it was safe enough. Besides, if he left a hole in the spell he could detect the phylactery through, someone else would be able to do the same thing, and a phylactery is a very important thing for a lich--if it's destroyed they lose their immortality, and Xykon seems quite keen on staying alive judging from his speech about avoiding the great fire below!

3) The events of SoD confirmed to Xykon that, to put it bluntly, Redcloak is his bitch. He can do what he darn well likes and Redcloak will just take it, mainly because Redcloak is a coward who doesn't want to face up to the consequences of his own actions.

[hamishspence]

Redcloak is someone who can't admit the possibility that all those "sacrifices for the greater good of the goblin people" were wasted.

However- this doesn't mean he won't turn on Xykon if it comes down to Xykon attempting to twist The Plan entirely to his own ends and away from any benefit for the goblin people.

Which is why Xykon has invested in a contingency plan already, in SoD:

If and when Redcloak does turn on Xykon, the Monster has a magical compulsion on it to eat Redcloak- and spit out the phylactery.

[Morthis]

Well, technically, I suppose the goblinoids have low-light vision or the like. But maybe the siege engines couldn't be aimed in the dark.

Regardless, other things I feel make abundantly clear that Xykon indeed IS an idiot. Consider every conversation he has with Redcloak about strategy consisting of the latter repeating obviously true and important facts, with Xykon eventually responding something like "... sorry, what did you day? Sorta zoned out there thinking about killing people... yum..." An extremely charismatic idiot, but an idiot nonetheless. He might very well have single-digit Intelligence and Wisdom stats, as he is a pure sorcerer.

You're confusing lack of caring for idiocy. He doesn't care about the strategy because he doesn't care what happens to his army. They were going to win anyway since the good guys really had no chance at killing, Xykon, RC and MiTD together (Soon is restricted to the throne room and would have been easily defeated if RC was there from the start, or even if Xykon had treated him like a real threat and known how to fight ghosts).

SoD has made it plenty clear that Xykon can be rather smart when he wants to be, he's just easily distracted and often make poor decisions for the sake of making things more fun. Take the fight with Roy on the zombie dragon, he offers to let Roy go free and everything, even though he could have just killed Roy and cast soulbind on him to remove him as a threat entirely (which could have easily shattered the oots). He likes messing around, and he doesn't particularly care what the consequences for that might be.

[derfenrirwolv]

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

...no. Even with dark and infravision, the goblinoids would be fighting in the city on unfamiliar ground. That would increase the defenders home field advantage by causing confusion amoung the attackers trying to figure out what was where. A lifelong resident of a city doesn't need to see all that well to get from one section of the city to another, they know the way.



2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

-Then it would probably subject it to someone ELSE locating it and returning it to THEM.


3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?

-See start of darkness for why xykon thinks redcloak is pathologically incapable of betraying him. (but he has precautions anyway)

Xykon is, quite frankly, completely unconcerned with the possibility of an uprising. He's an epic level sorcerer that's immune to non magical arrows (thanks to his lichy damage reduction) He has fire immunity, and can pretty much fireball and meteor swarm the town to ashes. before taking more than 30 points of damage.

[bsparrow]

PS: Please quote all those war-books that state you "always must attack at night".

This. I haven't read a lot of strategy books myself, so I'm generally curious as to whether that's true. Especially considering, as mentioned above, that in medieval times there were no cheap light sources an army could use in their siege on an unfamiliar city.

And please, why keep RC's eye out? To mess with RC's head! Xykon is a master at getting what he wants from people, whether by force or manipulation, and he's had 30 years of practice on RC. Xykon knows exactly how much RC is still tied up in the death of his brother, and considers that daily reminder RC now gets when he looks in the mirror a good punishment for the loss of his phylactory.

Xykon could just as easily kill RC and give the Crimson Mantle to Jirix, or some other goblinoid priest, but RC is wrapped so tight around his bony phalanges that it'd be way more effort to regain control over the new Redcloak. He'd prefer to simply reaffirm the "bitch" status of the one he has. If it comes at a loss of a little depth perception for the annoying little cretin, more's the better.

[DukeGod]

Xykons is a little Genre Savvy,he knows Redcloak would get like a lot stronger once he got an eyepatch...

[Ancalagon]

Xykons is a little Genre Savvy,he knows Redcloak would get like a lot stronger once he got an eyepatch...

... which did not really work out for Elan. ;)

[Acero]

Xykon is an idiot. Everyone already knows that. This post just isn't providing any proof about a fact that we already know

[Dienekes]

This. I haven't read a lot of strategy books myself, so I'm generally curious as to whether that's true. Especially considering, as mentioned above, that in medieval times there were no cheap light sources an army could use in their siege on an unfamiliar city.

It's not. Most notes that I remember claim that night fights are very good for raids, however that option was obviously not available to that giant army they had.

Now if this were a real world battle, they probably should have just had a half a year long siege, however I don't see that working too well since they were going after the destroyable gate. So the assault was just about the only option. Whether it would have been better at night? Possibly, do to their Darkvision. Though since it only goes out 60 feet, any archery or siege equipment would be hard to aim.

[TriForce]

well, we basically all know that, but the fact that you even clicked on this means perhaps someone on these forums has figured out some things you havnt. They were not hard to figure out, but some things just suprised me.

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

yes, but look back at all the strips that take place during the battle.... now think they are all black with only the talk balloons showing... would make for a boring strip if you ask me


2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

thats why he gave it to redcloak to be his holy symbol, redcloack NEEDS it every day, and is far less likely to lose it, exept for then ofc


3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?

punishment.... in his mind, its all RC's fault, and truth be told, its a pretty effective one, especially considering xykon knew all about right-eye. and dont overestimate RC, redcloak is in no position whatsoever to harm xykon. even if he manages to make the entire city attack xykon when he doesnt expect it, it just means he get to kill them that much more efficiently

[Morty]

Even though the "proof" in the OP isn't really proof, the thing is, Xykon doesn't have to be smart, at least by his reckoning. He's among the most powerful people on the planet, if not the most powerful. With the help of his lackeys and army, he can batter pretty much anything he comes across into submission.

[lio45]

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

Yep. It's well known that wise/smart people always base their decisions on what is shown in movies...

Can't go wrong.

[Scarlet Knight]

Tyrants, and evil ones in particular, rule by fear. It doesn't matter if your people want you destroyed; why it's expected! That'd be what you'd do if you were them! But fear?! Fear keeps them in line....

:redcloak: "Sure I'd like to off Xykon, but look what he did to me! You think I want to lose my other eye! Maybe my chances will be better in the future. Meanwhile , we continue to serve..."

[NerfTW]

well, we basically all know that, but the fact that you even clicked on this means perhaps someone on these forums has figured out some things you havnt. They were not hard to figure out, but some things just suprised me.

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?


Maybe, if you've only read two books and seen two movies in your entire life. Night attacks are good for a surprise raid, but you're equally hindered by darkness. Attempting to scale a fortified castle at night? Good luck. A night raid is pointless if you can't get to where the enemy is sleeping before they wake up. And certainly not for a castle that has guards out all the time. Far more effective is to attack from the east in the morning, and the west in the evening, so that the sun is blinding the people firing at you.

[Analytica]

You're confusing lack of caring for idiocy. He doesn't care about the strategy because he doesn't care what happens to his army. They were going to win anyway since the good guys really had no chance at killing, Xykon, RC and MiTD together (Soon is restricted to the throne room and would have been easily defeated if RC was there from the start, or even if Xykon had treated him like a real threat and known how to fight ghosts).

SoD has made it plenty clear that Xykon can be rather smart when he wants to be, he's just easily distracted and often make poor decisions for the sake of making things more fun. Take the fight with Roy on the zombie dragon, he offers to let Roy go free and everything, even though he could have just killed Roy and cast soulbind on him to remove him as a threat entirely (which could have easily shattered the oots). He likes messing around, and he doesn't particularly care what the consequences for that might be.

I suppose your assessment is as good as mine. And sure, he can be crafty, and cunning, and witty. He is excellent at one-liners, comebacks and nasty surprises. But I feel the throne room illustrates the scene I wanted to make. If Redcloak hadn't come, Xykon would have wasted all his spell slots on fire and electricity, and probably have been defeated. The fact that his Symbol of Insanity trick a few minutes before was brilliant is quite another matter.

But OK, put it this way, then. Xykon is smart, and he is also stupid, and not just in the sense of sometimes being one and sometimes the other. Depending on your choice of definitions, this may or may not make him an idiot. I do not feel either way that it detracts from him as a character.

[BRC]

Concerning Xykon's intelligence.

Xykon is smart, but not educated, he dosn't like to think, and he's very powerful. As I said, he doesn't like to think. He prefers to either have Redcloak do his thinking for him, or just rely on his magic to get him out of any situations he may run into. What's more, he knows that Redcloak is smarter than he is, hence why he hands things off to Redcloak whenever possible.

Consider the attack on Azure City. Xykon was uninterested in planning the attack, primarily because he knows nothing about leading an army, and doesn't have much interest in learning.
Now, it's been proven that when he can't get Redcloak do think for him, or simply rely on blasting things, he can be very cunning. Fighting the ghosts was more lack of education than stupidity.

Think about it this way, Xykon is an epic-level sorcerer lich. There is very little in the world that can threaten him. He's like a person playing a video game with a Godmode cheat. Yes, he could use strategies and careful planning like you're supposed to, but when playing Godmode, you might as well just waltz through life blasting anything that gets in your way.

[Ancalagon]

This thread - again - comes down to the two most misconceptions about Xykon's intelligence:

A) Confusing "not caring" with "stupid".

B) Just because he's not totally stupid in some cases, he gets considered to be smart (or brilliant). Xykon has some averagish Int, which means that he does not get some things but also does get other things and also has a few good ideas and some insight here and there. That's all. He's neither especially stupid (he started as that but due to "age" and "lich" he gained some Int along the way) nor especially smart.
He surely has some personal insight regarding "ruling by fear" and "power".

[Asta Kask]

This thread - again - comes down to the two most misconceptions about Xykon's intelligence:

B) Just because he's not totally stupid in some cases, he gets considered to be smart (or brilliant). Xykon has some averagish Int, which means that he does not get some things but also does get other things and also has a few good ideas and some insight here and there. That's all. He's neither especially stupid (he started as that but due to "age" and "lich" he gained some Int along the way) nor especially smart.
He surely has some personal insight regarding "ruling by fear" and "power".

He is, however, experienced and he has the Charisma of a lesser God.

[SoC175]

but you're equally hindered by darkness.
Well, not if your entire army has Darkvision ...

[BRC]

Well, not if your entire army has Darkvision ...
Only out to 60 feet. Darkvision means "I can walk through a room in the dark", not " I see as far in the dark as I do in light.

[SoC175]

Only out to 60 feet. Darkvision means "I can walk through a room in the dark", not " I see as far in the dark as I do in light.
Yet it also means "I can see 60 feet more than them" or "I can see you while we're in melee, but you can't (or barely) see me"

[Asta Kask]

Only out to 60 feet. Darkvision means "I can walk through a room in the dark", not " I see as far in the dark as I do in light.

I don't think that's so much of an issue. In dry terrain, soldiers couldn't see ten feet in front of them because of all the dust raised from thousands and thousands of stomping feet. And apparently people coped.

[BRC]

Yet it also means "I can see 60 feet more than them" or "I can see you while we're in melee, but you can't (or barely) see me"
Except the fighting would be taking place on the defender's turf, which they could prepare by having lights ready. Hobgoblins come up to the wall, and get blinded by the torches there. Meanwhile Azurite archers can just pour arrows down at the horde, while hobgoblin archers and catapult crews can't aim. Redcloak is unable to monitor the progress of the battle except by the use of messengers or magic, the "Three Xykon's" Plan wouldn't have been effective, ect.

[Vemynal]

Xykon is intelligent, *far* more intelligent then he lets on

Never mistake apathy for idiocy

[Darklord Bright]

Xykon does more than just "get it right once in a while" he is quite intelligent, and when he does say something smart, it shows a lot more intelligence than just someone of "average intelligence".

The issue is that he's apathetic and lazy, not unintelligent. He just doesn't care.

[SoC175]

Except the fighting would be taking place on the defender's turf, which they could prepare by having lights ready. Which would be the trade off for the incredible advantage of your own ranged fighters and the ability to go near with much lessened effect of their ranged fighters. At worst both sides are once againt on equal footing within the light after the first shock is over (which technically isn't a rule-effect), with advantage instandly transfering back to the hobgolins if the illuminated area is left behind.

Meanwhile Azurite archers can just pour arrows down at the horde, while hobgoblin archers and catapult crews can't aim. Actually it would be the other way round. Creatures without dark- or low-light-vision can't see far beyond the limit of the light source, while the light source is a perfect target for the hobgolins (just a glowing cigarette can be seen for miles at night).

[derfenrirwolv]

Actually it would be the other way round. Creatures without dark- or low-light-vision can't see far beyond the limit of the light source, while the light source is a perfect target for the hobgolins (just a glowing cigarette can be seen for miles at night).

You don't need to see to hit an army in the dark. You point your bow, you fire into the crowd, and it will hit something about as often as if you'd aimed the thing. Its like shooting fish in a barrel, you may not get the one you aimed for, but you can say latter you aimed for the one with the bullet in it.

[DBJack]

Xykon has proved himself to be one of the smartest characters in the strip. He might not have the most intelligence, or wisdom, but he can be terrifyingly clever when he needs to be, his plans work (whether they consist of blasting everything until it dies or actual clever plans such as the bouncy ball) and he has an excellent track record. Vaarsuvius has great intelligence stats, but Xykon knows a lot more than him. Redcloak may be wise, but which of them is in charge?

[Kish]

People both oversell and undersell Xykon a lot. He's neither the smartest nor the stupidest character in the comic.

[Solara]

You forgot:

4) Jumped into a battle with epic level debaters wielding a rushed post with zero proof-reading on an internet foru--oh wait, that wasn't Xykon. ;)

[Doppelganger]

Why not attack at night?

Simple. They couldn't.

They were marching as fast as possible (with hobbos dying of exhaustion right and left) and they got there in the morning. they COULDN'T get there in the night. If they had waited until the night, then the azurites would get twice as long to prepare (a very very bad thing). Furthermore, their psychological advantage would have worn off. All in all, attacking right away maintaned the best chance they had of winning.

On the other hand, holding Miko for just 12 hours longer would have given the Azurites virtualy no warning, AND still let Xykon scry Miko in the Azurite castle.

So, not brillant, not dumb.

For now

-Pixie

[ZerglingOne]

1) 3) The loss of an eye is only a minor hinderance.

No...
Not even close.

After a head injury, it's actually the second worst hindrance in D&D that isn't a full status effect or death (which is still a status effect I suppose on account of the fact it can be removed with magic). Redcloak now has a -2 to appraise, craft, decipher script, disable device, forgery, open lock, search, sense motive, spellcraft, spot, survival(tracking), initiative, dexterity checks, ranged attack rolls, and reflex saves.

edit: oh, and this
Xykon is intelligent, *far* more intelligent then he lets on

Never mistake apathy for idiocy

[the_tick_rules]

Xykon isn't a deep intellectual strategist, he'sa violent, cruel psychopath and/or sociopath.

[AceOfFools]

No...
Not even close.

After a head injury, it's actually the second worst hindrance in D&D that isn't a full status effect or death (which is still a status effect I suppose on account of the fact it can be removed with magic). Redcloak now has a -2 to appraise, craft, decipher script, disable device, forgery, open lock, search, sense motive, spellcraft, spot, survival(tracking), initiative, dexterity checks, ranged attack rolls, and reflex saves.

I'd have to check, but I'm not sure that all of those got -2 for one eye loss from the sources I've read.

More importantly, even those aren't that big of a hindrance to Redcloak. In fact, the only checks on that list Xykon's going to care about the vast majority of the time are spellcraft, initiative, and reflex saves. At their level, a single classed cleric can't have high enough in any of the other skills (except maybe sense motive) to mater in important circumstances, and the only ranged attack RC needs to make is disintegrate, and as ranged touch, he has to hit ~14 or so on everything but monks, and he gets to add 3/4 his level, or more than +10.

So from Xykon's perspective, that doesn't really handicap his minion that much, and making sure his minion remembers whose the bitch is far more important.

[veti]

I think it probably quite suits Xykon for Reddy to have a penalty to Sense Motive about now. Spellcraft is about the only skill he might have an interest in Redcloak keeping, and even that's not likely to be important until they find the gate and/or the phylactery.

[Drakevarg]

Xykon isn't a deep intellectual strategist, he'sa violent, cruel psychopath and/or sociopath.

These concepts aren't mutually exclusive. However, you are correct.

But he's not an idiot. He's clearly at least of average intelligence, probably has fairly good Wisdom, and simply awesome Charisma. What he is, is extremely apathetic. With his level of power, he simply doesn't NEED strategy. It doesn't matter if you can beat him in chess if he answers your checkmate with a grenade.

[Da'Shain]

It doesn't matter if you can beat him in chess if he answers your checkmate with a grenade.Something about this sentence is just ... beautiful to me. Thank you.

[Solara]

Something about this sentence is just ... beautiful to me. Thank you.

Seconded. I've been thinking about replacing my sig to something about Team Evil for awhile now - I think I just I just found a contender for Xykon's part, now somebody just needs to say something witty about Redcloak.

[Ronan]

SoD Spoiler


Xykon said it to be a reminder. Redcloak could be called Left-Eye now, so it is a reminder of his brother. Xykon doesn't care about Right Eye, but he knows it brings Redcloak down. Pure and simple punishment with a little Xykon's pepper evil sauce.

[Jan Mattys]

well, we basically all know that, but the fact that you even clicked on this means perhaps someone on these forums has figured out some things you havnt. They were not hard to figure out, but some things just suprised me.

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?

First and foremost: Xykon is NOT an idiot. It's just that he believes that raw power will always prevail over careful planning. And so far, nothing has been able to prove him wrong (except, maybe, Soon).
I'd also add that *looking* stupid is one of Xykon's strongest advantages in battle.The Oots world is FULL of dead zombified people who thought they could outsmart him.

This said:

1- Only if you care about the casualties on your side. Xykon doesn't.
2- If you can locate it, other people can locate it. If you completely protect it from scrying, no one will ever know where it is. If I were a Lich, I'd gladly take the second option over the first, honestly.
3- Read SoD. If you read SoD and still don't understand Xykon's lust for control and dominance, then read SoD again.

[Darklord Bright]

I believe Xykon actually says in SoD:
"There is a certain level of force that no amount of tactics can beat."

So yes, his brute force actually has reasoning behind it.

[Milandros]

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?

1) No. Most definitely not. Even today, with night-vision systems, inter and intra-squad level instant communications and all the rest, a large group of soldiers - say a regimental or divisional-scale assault on a place like Falluja - normally takes place during the daylight. For a quasi-medieval army like this, even with goblin darkvision, any attack plan would be "charge the walls and hope". Redcloak wouldn't know if the elementals had reached the walls. He wouldn't know if there was a breach. He wouldn't know if a sexy shoeless god of war had stimmied his attack on one flank. Or rather, not until a runner had gotten back to him with the news.

Historically, almost every major battle took place in daytime. Nightime is the province of raids, infiltrations and assassinations.

2) Hindsight is wonderful. For a lich, the risk of "I just happen to lose and forget and lose the single most important thing that maintains my existence" is distinctly less likely than "One of my many, many enemies might try to find where it is and grab it". Now we can say it would have been easier to have a Locate Object spell work on it - but how many cracks in the defences of such an item can one risk?

3) How To Manage Evil Minions and Ensure They Realise They are The Bitch, Not the Butch, Chapter IV.

Read Start of Darkness. It clarifies the relationship between Redcloak and Xykon. Xykon is being petty, mean and vindictive (well, duh, I always wonder why people ask "why didn't the monstrously evil villain treat his minions and his conquered territory well?" questions).

It's a spontaneous slap in the teeth from a very, very pissed-off Xykon to make sure that Redcloak does as he's damn well told, and keeps him off-balance and subservient. By not repairing his eye - something he could easily do - he signals his subservience. Every time Redcloak appears in front of Xykon with an eyepatch, he's effectively saying "Yes, Master".

[Xapi]

I can't believe nobody said this already, but regarding point 1 of the OP:

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

Xykon did NOT plan the attack. It's Redcloack who may or may not have made a mistake attacking in daylight, because he, not Xykon, was the one to make plans for the attack.

[Jackson]

This is pretty well-covered, but I'd just like to throw my two cents into the arena and help reiterate that a full-scale assault on a city, with an army of superior force that was geared for a siege, would always be launched during the day, and that there are virtually no movies or books that indicate otherwise. So that couldn't possibly be an indication of his intelligence, especially because the battle was basically a massive diversion for gaining control of the Gate.

In fact, the major tactical error Team Evil made regarding the Battle of Azure City was not learning enough about how the Gate was guarded; when it came to the battle itself they performed quite well, and would have done still better if Redcloak had actually given a damn about the battle itself before his wake up call.

[Dr.Epic]

well, we basically all know that, but the fact that you even clicked on this means perhaps someone on these forums has figured out some things you havnt. They were not hard to figure out, but some things just suprised me.

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

2) Im no d and d master, but cant you have one of those spells that locates it and returns it to you? He would really place every anti detection spell known on it, even though he loses things all the time?

3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?

1) A battle during the day? Yeah they happen. The time of day doesn't really indicate intelligence/stupidity.

2) To be fair Red Cloak had it and he's Mr. Super-Organized so the odds of it actually going missing were very little.

3) Anger and vengeance. Xykon's evil and he's inflicting punishment on Red Cloak.

[pjackson]

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?


No. Night attacks are rare historically. Usually battles ended, or at least paused at night.
Night attacks favour a smaller, better trained force, which the heroes in movies tend to be, so do appear more in movies.

There is a reason why they might have wanted to attack at night, in that the hobgoblins have darkvision, but that only lests them see 60'. It would still have been very difficult to control that large an army at night.

[chpicker]

Also, this is Redcloak's holy symbol we're talking about here, it very much appears that in oots, clerics need it to cast most of their spells (I think under standard rules it's only needed to turn undead).

I know I'm a few days late on this one, but this comment stuck out for me for some reason.

Almost all cleric spells require the cleric's holy symbol as a focus in order to cast them. There are very few exceptions (Word of Recall is one such).

[Querzis]

Xykon can be smart when he want to, he just almost never want to because it make thing boring! If you read SoD, you would know that his whole philosophy in life is that there is a level of power that no strategy can overcome. Xykon care about style and power and, when you're in trouble, you can forget about style.

More importantly, please understand that Xykon is not a batman wizard, hes an extremely bored undead who feel pleasure from pretty much nothing else then the suffering of other people. Hes not the kind of guy who would try to gain every advantage he can get, hes the kind of guy who would put himself at a disadvantage just to make a fight more interesting! That doesnt mean hes an idiot, that just mean hes freaking insane.

[BenTheJester]

In SoD, when Xykon gains +2 Int for becoming a lich, the roaches comment "4th grade reading level, here we come."

His Wis is probably a bit below par as well.

That little speech he gave V was pure wisdom.

[Ancalagon]

That little speech he gave V was pure wisdom.

Yes, but it's basically the only wisdom he has... ;)

[Da'Shain]

I just had this thought, but didn't think it really merited a new thread of its own, and this seems like the best place to put the question forward.

We know Xykon has Ghostform, right? He used it to move through the Azure City watchtower after he'd caged Miko.

So when he's fighting ghosts (or, hell, anyone powerful enough to be a threat, I guess), why doesn't he think to use it? He didn't seem to understand that his normal blasty spells didn't work because they were ghosts, but considering he has an ability which basically gives him the same immunity they had, it does seem rather stupid of him not to have worked it out.

And even if he didn't work it out, why not assume Ghostform on the off chance it helps, or even to run if necessary? He loses his natural armor bonus but gains his CHA as a deflection bonus, which with what must be a stupidly high CHA would be quite useful in a battle against lots of melee opponents, I'd think. He can retreat into the floor to gain concealment. He can possibly not get creamed like he was getting, and maybe even fight the ghost-paladins on their own terms, in which case he'd likely dispatch them even quicker than he did, since he'd still be able to blast them w/o Force spells.

I know the FAQ has a section devoted to basically saying "Don't think about questions like this too hard, because it was done for dramatic purposes," but this actually does make Xykon look pretty stupid to me, when most other evidence seems to point to him simply being bored and inattentive.

[factotum]

I don't know what the spell description for Ghostform is--it doesn't seem to be on the SRD--but if all it does is give Xykon the same immunities as the paladin ghosts, what use is it? It doesn't help him "kill" them any faster, and knowing Xykon, that's the only reason he'd want to use it!

[BillyJimBoBob]

I believe Xykon actually says in SoD:
"There is a certain level of force that no amount of tactics can beat."Which reminds me of a saying of Stalin: "Quantity has a quality of its own."

Which rolls right into the impression I had when I read this:

Never mistake apathy for idiocy
Apathy has an idiocy all its own.

Edit: Upon reflection, the SoD spoiler text reminds me more of a saying that I don't recall to who it was credited. A general officer, I believe. Something like "A poor plan, executed with enough violence, is far better than a perfect plan that never gets executed at all."

[Da'Shain]

I don't know what the spell description for Ghostform is--it doesn't seem to be on the SRD--but if all it does is give Xykon the same immunities as the paladin ghosts, what use is it? It doesn't help him "kill" them any faster, and knowing Xykon, that's the only reason he'd want to use it!Sorry, I forgot that it wasn't easily checked. It also makes your attacks hit other incorporeal people with no miss chance, so Xykon's spells would've worked just like they normally do.

But Xykon didn't know that being a ghost gave you those immunities, apparently, which makes little sense when he can be one himself and is why I was confused. However, what I'm saying is that even if he doesn't know about that, he should know that being incorporeal makes him harder to hit (loses his +5 natural armor bonus for being a lich, but gains his CHA as a deflection bonus which has to be more than +5, and also allows him to meld into the floor for total concealment from pretty much everything), so once he figures out he's in trouble that should really be a go-to spell for him. But we haven't seen him use it again, that I know of, which seems rather odd.

[krossbow]

Xykon IS an idiot; thats fairly clear. In his start of darkness he ended up getting tromped because he was too dumb to avoid decimating his own forces with cloudkill.
He IS however INCREDIBLY charismatic; and in D&D, charisma can let you manipulate like nobody's business. Hence he's manipulated a much more intelligent individual (redcloak) into essentially being his slave, by playing on his insecurities and using ridiculous diplomacy checks. See how he went from being a complete failure to a monster when he got Redcloak to start assisting him (and turning him into a lich).


Furthermore, Xykon is an epic level caster; That is UNGODLY broken. Hence xykon can essentially do whatever he wants against the majority of the world. There is almost no possible way for him to lose to anything barring another epic spellcaster. And, due to narrative causality, every other epic caster he has ever encountered has acted like a drooling moron when facing him (gating in Mooks instead of a solar to curbstomp him for example).

Essentially, Xykon has the DM on his side here. He has a loyal minion to cover his weaknesses, and plot armor to negate other casters when they fight him. He's only going to be taken down by either the party.

[Conuly]

In his start of darkness he ended up getting tromped because he was too dumb to avoid decimating his own forces with cloudkill.

Or he just didn't *care* that they got killed.

[krossbow]

Or he just didn't *care* that they got killed.


Since that ended up causing him to get captured, that more or less means he is an idiot.

A self destructive act that ends in your defeat confirms incompetence; since he needed his minions to survive, the very fact that he didn't care implies idiocy.

[Da'Shain]

Since that ended up causing him to get captured, that more or less means he is an idiot.

A self destructive act that ends in your defeat confirms incompetence; since he needed his minions to survive, the very fact that he didn't care implies idiocy.Er ... huh? Where are you getting that from?

The minions were wholly irrelevant to Xykon's loss, either their life or their death. It was Lirian's plague that defeated him, and Lirian herself who knocked him out afterwards.

[Conuly]

Er ... huh? Where are you getting that from?

The minions were wholly irrelevant to Xykon's loss, either their life or their death. It was Lirian's plague that defeated him, and Lirian herself who knocked him out afterwards.

Exactly what I was thinking, thank you.

Besides, Xykon got out of that prison better than ever. Why? Because he had the brains not to kill the critter he needed.

Plus, this was before his lichification - and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that boost your intelligence? So he might not be so stupid now, even if he was actually stupid then.

[Morthis]

Since that ended up causing him to get captured, that more or less means he is an idiot.

A self destructive act that ends in your defeat confirms incompetence; since he needed his minions to survive, the very fact that he didn't care implies idiocy.

Did you read an entirely different copy of SoD than me? You think a few dozen goblins that don't even have PC levels will suddenly defeat an epic level druid? I can't even begin to imagine where you got that idea from.

Edit:


Plus, this was before his lichification - and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that boost your intelligence? So he might not be so stupid now, even if he was actually stupid then.

Yes, 2 to all "casting stats" (int/wis/cha).

[factotum]

Of course, +2 to INT might not mean that much if he was starting from a very low level--however, I think there's reasonable evidence that Xykon had at least average intelligence even as a human. What I think he lacks, and has always lacked, is common sense (e.g. Wisdom). That's the real reason Xykon and Redcloak actually make a pretty good team--each of them fills in for the deficiencies of the other.

[blunk]

I believe Xykon actually says in SoD:
"There is a certain level of force that no amount of tactics can beat."

So yes, his brute force actually has reasoning behind it.Never use a flying kick to the head when a good knee to the nuts will do.

[Ancalagon]

Never use a flying kick to the head when a good knee to the nuts will do.

How do you mean that? What's the stronger one in your opinion (that helps to interpret it correctly ;))

[TriForce]

Sorry, I forgot that it wasn't easily checked. It also makes your attacks hit other incorporeal people with no miss chance, so Xykon's spells would've worked just like they normally do.

But Xykon didn't know that being a ghost gave you those immunities, apparently, which makes little sense when he can be one himself and is why I was confused. However, what I'm saying is that even if he doesn't know about that, he should know that being incorporeal makes him harder to hit (loses his +5 natural armor bonus for being a lich, but gains his CHA as a deflection bonus which has to be more than +5, and also allows him to meld into the floor for total concealment from pretty much everything), so once he figures out he's in trouble that should really be a go-to spell for him. But we haven't seen him use it again, that I know of, which seems rather odd.

i checked ghostforms description just now, it does say it allows you to physically harm etherial creatures just like normal, but here is the funny part, it doesnt seem to change the funktion of spells. While under ghostform, you treat non-ethereal creatures with the normal 50% miss chance ( or immunity in case of non-magic weapons) but spells work normally, so i figured that spells wont be affected by ghostform, so even if xykon would have cast it, it wouldnt have helped him much unless he only made melee touch attacks, not really a good idea against a horde of angry ghost-paladins.

so, xykon wasnt such a fool after all, not using ghostform, since it wouldnt have helped him anyway

[Zanaril]

How do you mean that? What's the stronger one in your opinion (that helps to interpret it correctly ;))

I think it's more that either is just as good, but a flying kick to the head is hard to pull off and more likely to go wrong, while anyone can knee someone in the groin.

So simplicity > impressiveness if both have the same outcome.

[Da'Shain]

i checked ghostforms description just now, it does say it allows you to physically harm etherial creatures just like normal, but here is the funny part, it doesnt seem to change the funktion of spells. While under ghostform, you treat non-ethereal creatures with the normal 50% miss chance ( or immunity in case of non-magic weapons) but spells work normally, so i figured that spells wont be affected by ghostform, so even if xykon would have cast it, it wouldnt have helped him much unless he only made melee touch attacks, not really a good idea against a horde of angry ghost-paladins.

so, xykon wasnt such a fool after all, not using ghostform, since it wouldnt have helped him anywayThe proviso for your spells functioning normally against other incorporeal creatures comes from the description of the special ability Incorporeality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality), which states that you have a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. Thus, when you are incorporeal yourself, other incorporeal creatures do not get this benefit against you. This is further borne out by the earlier statement in that entry concerning what can hurt them, which starts off with "Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures ...".

Of course, Xykon might not have been capable of putting two and two together fast enough to figure this out, but even someone of middling intelligence should be able to say "Hey, they're ghosts so I can't hurt them as much. Wait, I can be a ghost too ... shouldn't that help?" If nothing else, he'd figure it would give him the same protection they have, which'll help a lot. He wouldn't get the same protection (as they'd have no 50% miss chance against him), but he would quickly discover that his miss chance was gone as well, and again they'd probably hit him less because his CHA modifier is almost certainly far higher than his natural armor bonus of +5. (Speaking of his armor class ... it's going to take a miracle for the Order's melee fighters to hit him, now that he's apparently researched Epic Mage Armor. Wonder how that's going to work.)

And I went back over the events of the battle, too. There's no way he was out of 8th level spells for that day, unless he cast a whole lot offscreen. The most he cast is one, and that's even assuming he made the Symbol of Insanity ball that morning rather than days ago, since it's permanent until triggered. So he doesn't have that excuse, either.

Like I said, probably shouldn't bother me, but it does a bit.

[Ancalagon]

I think it's [...]

Yes. I can also think of several ways to interpret it and also can imagine what interpretation is more likely than another. But since I don't *know*... I asked how it was meant.

[Petrocorus]

well, we basically all know that, but the fact that you even clicked on this means perhaps someone on these forums has figured out some things you havnt. They were not hard to figure out, but some things just suprised me.

1) They attacked azure city during the day? Doesn't about every war book and movie say to attack at night?

Actually no, in the "Art of War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War)", Sun Tzu specifically states that the best moments for attacking are the early morning and the late afternoon.
That allows you to attack with the sun in the back and for metabolism reasons, soldiers are more efficient at these moments of the day, if they are prepared.

The hobbos have night vision, but only to 60 ft / 18 m. So, they will be unable to use archery or artillery, and attacking a fortified city without ranged weapons, and without being able to easily coordinate the troops is a good way to defeat. The advantage in close-combat would not balance this, IMHO.

Maybe Xykon didn't care for the hobbos, but RC was willing to conquer the city, i thinks, even if he didn't really care for casualties.



3) Why would he want redcloaks eye out? It can only hinder vision and make his trusted first ally harbor feelings to you. Any other guy, fine, but why piss off the only guy there that has a chance of starting an uprising?
Machiavel, in "The Prince (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince)", clearly states that ruling by fear is the most efficient. As long as you're not hated more than feared. Since Reddy doesn't hate Xykon, even if he's annoyed, and even more need him. Xykon prefer clearly being feared than loved anyway.



I think it's more that either is just as good, but a flying kick to the head is hard to pull off and more likely to go wong, while anyone can knee someone in the groin.

So simplicity > impressiveness if both have the same outcome.

Seconded. In the Wing Chun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_chun), and other wu-shu from southern china, kicks are normally never aimed above the waist, for quickness and efficiency.

[TriForce]

The proviso for your spells functioning normally against other incorporeal creatures comes from the description of the special ability Incorporeality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality), which states that you have a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. Thus, when you are incorporeal yourself, other incorporeal creatures do not get this benefit against you. This is further borne out by the earlier statement in that entry concerning what can hurt them, which starts off with "Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures ...".

Of course, Xykon might not have been capable of putting two and two together fast enough to figure this out, but even someone of middling intelligence should be able to say "Hey, they're ghosts so I can't hurt them as much. Wait, I can be a ghost too ... shouldn't that help?" If nothing else, he'd figure it would give him the same protection they have, which'll help a lot. He wouldn't get the same protection (as they'd have no 50% miss chance against him), but he would quickly discover that his miss chance was gone as well, and again they'd probably hit him less because his CHA modifier is almost certainly far higher than his natural armor bonus of +5. (Speaking of his armor class ... it's going to take a miracle for the Order's melee fighters to hit him, now that he's apparently researched Epic Mage Armor. Wonder how that's going to work.)

And I went back over the events of the battle, too. There's no way he was out of 8th level spells for that day, unless he cast a whole lot offscreen. The most he cast is one, and that's even assuming he made the Symbol of Insanity ball that morning rather than days ago, since it's permanent until triggered. So he doesn't have that excuse, either.

Like I said, probably shouldn't bother me, but it does a bit.

well dont forget that incorperability =/= ethereal, they both are very similar, but they are not the same, dunno if that changes a lot, but if the spell states that you can affect non-ethereal creatures normally with your spells, i assume that can only be becouse the spells are not considered altered even tough you are in ghostform.

and its very clear he casted a lot of spells offpanel, between xykons last panel and the arrival of redcloak, he hes been seriously messed up, so a lot of rounds must have passed

[Snake-Aes]

He already has deflection modifiers to AC, ghostform deflecharisma wouldn't be as helpful as his cha modifier points to.

[CrimsonAngel]

He'll come after you, you know.

[Ancalagon]

Seconded. In the Wing Chun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_chun), and other wu-shu from southern china, kicks are normally never aimed above the waist, for quickness and efficiency.

To stay off-topic: It's also a matter of risk. A good roundhouse kick to the head wins the fight for you. But it's easy to deflect/evade and if you miss and the opponent is at least a bit skilled... you are out (in case you get into fights where you use (you did that kick) such extreme techniques that means: "possibly severely injured or even dead").

[Petrocorus]

To stay off-topic: It's also a matter of risk. A good roundhouse kick to the head wins the fight for you. But it's easy to deflect/evade and if you miss and the opponent is at least a bit skilled... you are out (in case you get into fights where you use (you did that kick) such extreme techniques that means: "possibly severely injured or even dead").

To stay off-topic, there is a quite funny scene like this in Lionheart (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100029/) with JC Van Damme. The opponent attempts this, JCVD dodges and...well...let's say he ends the fight with an only punch well aimed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEMqBz6DDQM).

[Da'Shain]

well dont forget that incorperability =/= ethereal, they both are very similar, but they are not the same, dunno if that changes a lot, but if the spell states that you can affect non-ethereal creatures normally with your spells, i assume that can only be becouse the spells are not considered altered even tough you are in ghostform.It doesn't change much in regards to this particular instance, although if he had been ethereal as well he'd possibly have been invisible to the ghost paladins (not sure about that one). But the definition of incorporeality specifically says "from a corporeal source," and you're no longer corporeal when you're in Ghostform. The description of the spell talks about your spells not having a miss chance vs. corporeal creatures because that's what matters 9/10 times, but since it doesn't specifically say you retain the chance vs. other incorporeal creatures, I'd say it's pretty clear cut that you don't.

and its very clear he casted a lot of spells offpanel, between xykons last panel and the arrival of redcloak, he hes been seriously messed up, so a lot of rounds must have passedOh I'm sure he's cast most of his spells by the arrival of Redcloak. What I meant was, going into the battle in the throne room he should've had nearly all of his high level spells, so even if he only realized it'd be helpful a couple rounds later, he should still have been able to cast it.

Of course, since it only has a duration of rounds/level and we don't know how many rounds passed between the ghost paladins' attack and Redcloak arriving, it's possible that he did cast it ... but if he had I would be willing to bet that every ghost in that room, except possibly Soon, would have been dead.

[Querzis]

Ok so firstly ghostform is a spell from Tome & Blood and we rarely see anyone use anything non-core in OOTS so its very much possible the spell doesnt even exist in the OOTS world. Secondly, even if it exist, I really have absolutely no idea why you apparently assume Xykon know that spell. And thirdly, personnaly I most definitly woudnt consider that Ghostform allows your SPELLS (which really arent affected at all by the form of your body) to hit ghost. Sure theres nothing in the rule that says it woudnt but there is nothing in the rule that says it would either so in these case I use my logic and logically, theres no reason why your spells could hit other ghost because you are in ghost form.

But most importantly, once again, Xykon is no freaking Batman Wizard. That doesnt mean hes an idiot, as a matter of fact, I consider pretty much all Batman Wizard to be idiots.

[hamishspence]

We know he has that spell- because we see him use it here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html

He says the word- it functions as described.

[Kish]

Ok so firstly ghostform is a spell from Tome & Blood and we rarely see anyone use anything non-core in OOTS so its very much possible the spell doesnt even exist in the OOTS world. Secondly, even if it exist, I really have absolutely no idea why you apparently assume Xykon know that spell.

No assumption involved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), about the spell's existence or Xykon's knowledge of it.

Da'Shain said as much in his first mention of Ghostform.


But most importantly, once again, Xykon is no freaking Batman Wizard.
Indeed not. A wizard can cast only the spells s/he prepared that day; Xykon can cast Ghostform as many times per day as he has eighth-level and higher spell slots.

[Shale]

Uh...we do know that Ghostform exists and the Xykon knows it.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html

Argh! Ninjas everywhere!

[hamishspence]

As to whether it solves the problem:

Incorporeality grants a 50% chance to ignore damage (including spells) from a corporeal source.

However, if the source is not a corporeal source- that is, if it's another incorporeal creature, that clause doesn't apply.

Since Redcloak knows he has it, he really should have told Xykon to become incorporeal.

[Da'Shain]

He already has deflection modifiers to AC, ghostform deflecharisma wouldn't be as helpful as his cha modifier points to.Yeah, but we don't know how much of a deflection modifier he has. Going by the Geekery thread, Xykon's CHA is at least 28, giving him a +9 modifier at the least. Even assuming that he only has that 28, the most he would lose is one point of AC if he has a Ring of Protection +5, which seems unlikely when he's already got two other fairly important rings.(although he might have lost that extra special one he had in SOD, because otherwise the Paladins' smites might not have hurt quite so much)

EDIT: Actually, that brings to mind another question. How'd the Paladins make him fizzle his Meteor Swarm in 448 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)? Judging by his comment to V he considers Concentration a very important skill, plus as an Undead he adds his CHA modifier to Concentration checks so it'll be even more epic. None of their attacks would bypass his damage reduction (since none were bludgeoning) and their Smite Evils couldn't have hurt him all that much. Of course, I could be unclear on how the rules for Concentration works, as my DMs generally don't bother much with making you roll it.

Of course, he could have intentionally fizzled it because he thought it lent more to the "false hope" he was going for. That'd be odd but I suppose it'd suit him.


Ok so firstly ghostform is a spell from Tome & Blood and we rarely see anyone use anything non-core in OOTS so its very much possible the spell doesnt even exist in the OOTS world. Secondly, even if it exist, I really have absolutely no idea why you apparently assume Xykon know that spell. It's also from Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium, and since the Orb spells are also in use in OOTS at least some elements from those books are fair game. Plus, as hamishpence pointed out, we know it exists, and that Xykon knows it, because we've seen him use it.

And thirdly, personnaly I most definitly woudnt consider that Ghostform allows your SPELLS (which really arent affected at all by the form of your body) to hit ghost. Sure theres nothing in the rule that says it woudnt but there is nothing in the rule that says it would either so in these case I use my logic and logically, theres no reason why your spells could hit other ghost because you are in ghost form.This is rather faulty logic. Unless otherwise specified, attacks that work normally work normally. Incorporeal creatures have a specified benefit against the attacks of corporeal creatures; there is no reason to assume that they gain this benefit against non-corporeal creatures as well. You are incorporeal and thus non-corporeal when you are in Ghostform; thus their special ability does not apply against you.

If it helps your personal sense, remember that ghosts basically exist on the Ethereal plane and have an ability which allows them to manifest on the Material plane. Their miss chance is a result of their not technically being on the Material plane, and thus the barrier between planes preventing half of even magic attacks from crossing over. Once you become incorporeal yourself, though, you're on the same plane as they are. There's no more barrier to your attacks, and you can fight as normal.

[factotum]

Since Redcloak knows he has it, he really should have told Xykon to become incorporeal.

By the time Redcloak showed up Xykon had used his high level spells--note that he mentions he's running out of spells above 5th level. However, you're probably right, he SHOULD have mentioned it--which implies that perhaps it doesn't actually work the way you think it does, at least not in OotS. There seems to be enough uncertainty as to whether Ghostform would actually allow Xykon to hit the ghost-martyrs reliably that Rich may have decided it didn't work that way!

[Da'Shain]

By the time Redcloak showed up Xykon had used his high level spells--note that he mentions he's running out of spells above 5th level. However, you're probably right, he SHOULD have mentioned it--which implies that perhaps it doesn't actually work the way you think it does, at least not in OotS. There seems to be enough uncertainty as to whether Ghostform would actually allow Xykon to hit the ghost-martyrs reliably that Rich may have decided it didn't work that way!There's uncertainty only because, for reasons beyond me, the rules are apparently unclear to some people. But the rules are pretty clear, once read. Incorporeal creatures get a miss chance against attacks, magical and otherwise, from corporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures are, by definition, not corporeal. Therefore, incorporeal creatures do not get a miss chance against other incorporeal creatures.

Or, more simply I guess, the spell Ghostform should logically give you the form of a Ghost, and all the benefits that implies.

[salinan]

Incorporeal creatures get a miss chance against attacks, magical and otherwise, from corporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures are, by definition, not corporeal. Therefore, incorporeal creatures do not get a miss chance against other incorporeal creatures.
That sounds fine for melee, but does it work for magical attacks? I.e. do magical attacks become 'incorporeal' magical attacks if you're incorporeal?

[Snake-Aes]

That sounds fine for melee, but does it work for magical attacks? I.e. do magical attacks become 'incorporeal' magical attacks if you're incorporeal?

Given there's a feat specific to make spells hit incorporeal beings, it might be.

[Querzis]

Given there's a feat specific to make spells hit incorporeal beings, it might be.

Yes there is a feat, because the feat specifically says your SPELLS hit incorporeal being, not you. So yeah I was wrong about Xykon having ghostform and I'm really sorry about that. But oddly enough, I'm still absolutely sure that I'm right about ghostform. Look, lets say you're a fire elemental and you do bonus fire damage when you hit someone. Will you actually add that bonus fire damage to your spell for some reason? Yes if Xykon would try to hit the ghost in ghostform it would work but thats totally useless. The source of the damage is not Xykon, its the freaking spells. It doesnt matter if your body is in a ghostform, if you're polymorphed in a dragon or even a sheep for that matter, the meteor swarm you're going to throw at the ghosts is still and will always be the same freaking meteor swarm. Why the hell would the spells you're throwing around be affected by the form of you body?

Oh and by the way, the quickest way the paladins could have to kill Xykon was not by hitting him with swords. It was a nice spell called lay on hand, if they would have all done this for one round, Xykon would have died for sure because he has no damage reduction against that. Problem is, they could not use it because they were incorporeal...Think about it. Xykon casting ghostform is not just useless, it would have killed him.

[Pyron]

Oh and by the way, the quickest way the paladins could have to kill Xykon was not by hitting him with swords. It was a nice spell called lay on hand, if they would have all done this for one round, Xykon would have died for sure because he has no damage reduction against that. Problem is, they could not use it because they were incorporeal...Think about it. Xykon casting ghostform is not just useless, it would have killed him.

So your saying that an incorporeal ghost cannot use supernatural touch attacks on a corporeal opponent? :smallconfused:

That's a relief because I was worried that my PC would be strength drained by those pesky shadows.

[Da'Shain]

That sounds fine for melee, but does it work for magical attacks? I.e. do magical attacks become 'incorporeal' magical attacks if you're incorporeal?Why wouldn't they? There is no specific rule on the miss chance aside from "from a corporeal source." You're not a corporeal source anymore, thus you don't get the miss chance. I'm really not getting the problem here.


Yes there is a feat, because the feat specifically says your SPELLS hit incorporeal being, not you. So yeah I was wrong about Xykon having ghostform and I'm really sorry about that.No need to be sorry, forgetting a one-off spell he's used is perfectly understandable. The fact that he's only used it the one time is part of what bothers me; it'd be quite useful in a variety of situations that have happened, IMO (although some of which only in SoD).

But oddly enough, I'm still absolutely sure that I'm right about ghostform. Look, lets say you're a fire elemental and you do bonus fire damage when you hit someone. Will you actually add that bonus fire damage to your spell for some reason? Yes if Xykon would try to hit the ghost in ghostform it would work but thats totally useless. The source of the damage is not Xykon, its the freaking spells. It doesnt matter if your body is in a ghostform, if you're polymorphed in a dragon or even a sheep for that matter, the meteor swarm you're going to throw at the ghosts is still and will always be the same freaking meteor swarm. Why the hell would the spells you're throwing around be affected by the form of you body?If you want a common sense reason, I already gave you one. Incorporeal creatures are present in part on the Material plane only in part; their natural plane of existence is the Ethereal plane, and their ability to manifest makes them fully capable of hitting you (with certain attacks, such as spells), but makes it hard for you to hit them, because you're not the one manifesting and thus your attacks do not have a perfect chance to cross the planar barrier.

Once you become incorporeal yourself, though, via Ghostform or however, you now also exist on the Ethereal plane and are manifesting yourself on the Material. So you have the same abilities vs. normal, corporeal creatures as they do, which Ghostform takes pains to point out. However, you also are no longer on the wrong plane for attack. The fact that your body has changed consistency does not matter in this case, as in the examples of Shapechanging that make you balk so. It's the fact that the spell now originates on the same plane as your target, rather than having to cross through "to the other side".

It's essentially the same as fighting ethereal creatures by becoming ethereal yourself. By changing your form to suit them, you also change the point of origin for your attacks, which makes a big difference when their immunity was caused in the first place by the two of you being on separate planes.

Oh and by the way, the quickest way the paladins could have to kill Xykon was not by hitting him with swords. It was a nice spell called lay on hand, if they would have all done this for one round, Xykon would have died for sure because he has no damage reduction against that. Problem is, they could not use it because they were incorporeal...Think about it. Xykon casting ghostform is not just useless, it would have killed him.The lay on hands ability is a good point, actually, that does seem as though it would be a far better mode of attack for pretty much any paladin with a positive CHA modifier, I had forgotten about that. And you're quite possibly right that becoming a ghost himself would have allowed the ghost paladins to use it against him. So perhaps this is why he didn't use it and Redcloak didn't suggest it.

It's true that ghosts can still make melee touch attacks, but Rich possibly ruled that the Lay on Hands ability requires you to actually put your physical hands onto someone, thus negating its usefulness for the ghosts. If that was an ability they were capable of using against Xykon, then it wouldn't make much sense for the ghosts to not use it unless there was some reason why.

[factotum]

The fact that he's only used it the one time is part of what bothers me; it'd be quite useful in a variety of situations that have happened, IMO (although some of which only in SoD).


He might have learned the spell after SoD once he realised how useful it can be. Or maybe he only bothered to learn it for the assault on the watchtowers? Given Xykon's prediliction for blasting people, Ghostform is maybe a bit of an odd choice.

In any case, this falls into the FAQ question of "Why didn't character X do Y?" Because it would short-circuit the plot!

[blunk]

How do you mean that? What's the stronger one in your opinion (that helps to interpret it correctly ;))Meaning that overcoming your opponent with tactics is a flashy kick, and overcoming with brute force is the inelegant but effective knee. Since Xykon has zero (negative?) regard for human life, and nothing to prove (being apparently bored with existence), he has nothing to lose from using brute force, and nothing to gain from displaying any amount of elegance or intelligence. Using the simple solution is a no-brainer, no pun intended.

So, apathetic, yes. Crass, yes. Idiotic, nope.

[Ancalagon]

Kick to the brain is just as brute force as kicking in the groin. It's just more tricky to pull off correctly and is possibly deadly (= does more damage).
I don't think it's a good analogy. ;)