may this be a clue on Belkar's destiny? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

SurvivorX

2010-02-08, 01:00 PM

I don't think it has any bearing on Belkar's death prophecy.

In that selfsame comic, immediately after Haley kicks him out, they walk out of the Memory Charm and Haley instantly forgets that she kicked him out. So, since the OotS doesn't operate on written contracts anymore and is entirely bound by verbal agreement, he's still, for all intents and purposes, part of the party.

Morty

2010-02-08, 01:01 PM

I can't help but point out that Haley might have thrown Belkar out of the Order before Oracle made his prophecy.

Vemynal

2010-02-08, 01:04 PM

especially since Roy considers him such

NerfTW

2010-02-08, 01:05 PM

maybe in Roy's question? do we know what precise words did he say? i don't think we ever read it, maybe they could be connected to it in some way....
(and we know the oracle uses these jokes very often---see the "cause the death of" thing)

Uh, it's in the comic. You could verify this by LOOKING AT IT. Only a few strips later.

The prophecy has nothing to do with his status in the group, simply breathing, being in this world, and savoring his next birthday cake.

Temotei

2010-02-08, 01:09 PM

Interesting is the fact that Belkar seems really taken aback at Haley's decision, as if he'd be completely lost without the Order.

Kish

2010-02-08, 01:13 PM

maybe in Roy's question? do we know what precise words did he say? i don't think we ever read it,
He asked which Gate Xykon would go to next. Nothing to do with Belkar. Belkar's death and permanent removal from the world has no oracular connection to his membership in the Order.

maybe they could be connected to it in some way....
(and we know the oracle uses these jokes very often---see the "cause the death of" thing)
You mean when he stabbed the Oracle? Don't get confused about what the fulfillment of the prophecy was.

Interesting is the fact that Belkar seems really taken aback at Haley's decision, as if he'd be completely lost without the Order.
Left vomiting by the side of the road, he would have died, and he knew it. He was more concerned about her refusal to give him a ride than with his membership in the Order, as such.

Neopolis

2010-02-08, 01:27 PM

maybe in Roy's question? do we know what precise words did he say? i don't think we ever read it, maybe they could be connected to it in some way....
(and we know the oracle uses these jokes very often---see the "cause the death of" thing)
The Oracle doesn't make these kinds of jokes very often. The fact that Roy THOUGHT he would give a vague or wrong answer and therefore made his question too specific was what caused the Oracle to give an unsatisfying answer. All of his prophecies have been quite clear, so far. The only vague misinterpreted prophecy we've had in the comic was Eugene's.

Gandariel

2010-02-08, 01:29 PM

ok, but
WHAT EXACTLY was roy's question?

roy asked: .........
the Oracle answered: Belkar will draw his last breath etc.

Kish

2010-02-08, 01:36 PM

ok, but
WHAT EXACTLY was roy's question?

roy asked: .........
the Oracle answered: Belkar will draw his last breath etc.
"Not long for this world? What are you saying?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)
If that doesn't answer your question then please reexamine your basic premise instead of just asking it yet again. :smalltongue:

NerfTW

2010-02-08, 02:22 PM

ok, but
WHAT EXACTLY was roy's question?

roy asked: .........
the Oracle answered: Belkar will draw his last breath etc.

Seriously, read the comic. If you're referring to the original question Roy asked, it was stated in the strip as "Where is Xykon?". The answer was "In his throne room." Then he threatened the Oracle for further information such as "What is the geographic location in longitude and latitude of Xykon's throneroom?" and got an exact answer.

Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about at all. Please read the original appearance of the Oracle again, and the second, because your question makes no sense.

Gandariel

2010-02-08, 02:31 PM

the answer the oracle gave is: "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

Now, if there is an answer, there must be a question.

what is the question which generated as an answer "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year" ?

i don't know how to explain it better
i'm not talking about the question about Xykon's location, i'm asking about the question whose answer was about Belkar's death.

i want to know what did exactly Roy say (maybe in one of the books).

Kish

2010-02-08, 02:33 PM

...You see what happens in that strip. There is no question in one of the books. Why are you insisting that something that doesn't exist must exist? You see what happens right before the Oracle says that. You see what happens right after the Oracle says that. You see what happens as the Oracle is saying that.

the answer the oracle gave is: "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

Now, if there is an answer, there must be a question.

So your premise is wrong. It's a statement, not an answer, unless "What are you saying?" is the question you're looking for.

Ceaon

2010-02-08, 02:37 PM

I'm with Kish on this one. The Oracle probably does not need to be asked a queston to make a prophecy, and even if he does, Roy's question "Not long for this world? What are you saying?" seems to be good enough to count.

SensFan

2010-02-08, 02:48 PM

The first and only time the entire Order visited the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), the Oracle was explaining the memory charm. The following was said, between kobold and Roy:

"You'll be allowed one question. Everything else about this trip will fade from your memory."
"Uh...why?"
"Because I have an unfortunate tendency to ramble on a bit, and if I happen to let it slip that, say, the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA, I don't want it to influence anything."
"Did...did you just imply that Belkar isn't going to live to see old age???"
"Well, I'm just thinking he should savor his next birthday cake. 'Nuff said."

Then nothing more is said of it. The party all forget about the conversation, since it was not an answer given to a question, while the Oracle was in a trance.

After the Haley/Belkar/Celia trip that CelestialRoy spies on, the following conversation happens:

"At any rate, your pal isn't long for this world[...]"
"Not long for this world? What are you saying?"
"The same thing I said last time you were here, only you forgot. Here, you want it on the record?"

And then the Oracle enters a trance, and gives Roy an 'official' answer, one that he will remember. He even mentions a few panels later that Roy will remember it.

So basically, as others have said, you don't seem to be reading the comic properly. The fact Belkar may or may not be part of the Order has nothing do to with when he dies.

NerfTW

2010-02-08, 02:54 PM

the answer the oracle gave is: "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

Now, if there is an answer, there must be a question.

what is the question which generated as an answer "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year" ?

It's in the previous panel.

Not long for this world? What are you saying?

said in reply to him simply rambling off about the future, if you want to get specific. But there's nothing saying that a question has to be asked. The green voice simply means that they'll remember it after they leave, as opposed to his normal ramblings.

ThePhantasm

2010-02-08, 03:09 PM

Asta Kask

2010-02-08, 03:13 PM

Because then Belkar would go off on a wild rampage, since he will have nothing to lose?

The Vorpal Tribble

2010-02-08, 03:16 PM

Of course, just because Belkar draws his last breath, and the question was answered thus, I tend to believe Belkar will be going undead or equivalent.

Temotei

2010-02-08, 03:19 PM

Of course, just because Belkar draws his last breath, and the question was answered thus, I tend to believe Belkar will be going undead or equivalent.

Stolen from my head.

Kish

2010-02-08, 03:22 PM

Of course, just because Belkar draws his last breath, and the question was answered thus, I tend to believe Belkar will be going undead or equivalent.
"...not long for the world..."
Undead are in the world.

Temotei221, unless you thought that .01 seconds after the Oracle declared that Belkar would draw his last breath ever before the end of the year, I'm afraid you were too late to get the patent on it. Lots of people have proposed Undead Belkar since that strip.

Optimystik

2010-02-08, 03:23 PM

Because then Belkar would go off on a wild rampage, since he will have nothing to lose?

Or rather, he will find some way to wriggle out of destiny and thus survive - the Oracle would eat his robes before he did anything that would cause Belkar to live.

Asta Kask

2010-02-08, 03:24 PM

Of course, just because Belkar draws his last breath, and the question was answered thus, I tend to believe Belkar will be going undead or equivalent.

*starts singing*

"You're in denial..."

Kish

2010-02-08, 03:25 PM

Or perhaps he'd be sufficiently aggravated by the prediction to bear hug the Oracle and bull rush him into a rift so that he and the Oracle got irrevocably wiped out together.

Or--possibly more of a concern, for the Memory Charm in general--if it didn't exist he might let something slip that the clients would otherwise come back and pay him for.

Temotei

2010-02-08, 03:26 PM

"...not long for the world..."
Undead are in the world.

Temotei221, unless you thought that .01 seconds after the Oracle declared that Belkar would draw his last breath ever before the end of the year, I'm afraid you were too late to get the patent on it. Lots of people have proposed Undead Belkar since that strip.

I didn't say I was patenting it. I don't read this section of the forum too often, so theories are over my head.

Still, it's possible. Dead people are in the world, using your logic.

Kish

2010-02-08, 03:29 PM

Really? That would have been news to Roy when he was in Celestia.

Let's try this.
Twenty gold says Belkar dies and stays dead.

Temotei

2010-02-08, 03:39 PM

Really? That would have been news to Roy when he was in Celestia.

Let's try this.
Twenty gold says Belkar dies and stays dead.

His body was still there. :smallcool: He's still part of the world, technically.

I don't really care if Belkar dies or becomes undead or whatever, because I think Rich can do any of those right.

Although, it would be kind of cool to have him join Team Evil. :smallamused: He could die before or after that.

Before: Undead.
After: Killed.

Either way. :smallbiggrin:

Smiling Knight

2010-02-08, 04:36 PM

I can't resist the pun:

"Hey, are your feet wet? Can you see the pyramids?
"Why?"
"'Cause you're obviously in Da Nile!"

*rimshot*

ThePhantasm

2010-02-08, 08:16 PM

His body was still there. :smallcool: He's still part of the world, technically.

Not only that, he was turned into a Golem.

I think my point was that we don't know that events in OOTS world are predestined. The Oracle may have been afraid that Belkar would save himself or something. He did not know that Roy's ascension into Celestia would bypass the memory charm. Indeed, Belkar STILL doesn't know. But if he finds out....

Optimystik

2010-02-08, 08:25 PM

Not only that, he was turned into a Golem

His soul looked decidedly un-golemish to me.

Durgok

2010-02-09, 12:31 AM

ThePhantasm

2010-02-09, 01:08 AM

Anyone think that that doesn't necessarily mean he will die?

Of course Belkar will be in the comic in some capacity. People just like to assume that a) he MUST be in the afterlife and b) his fate is predestined and the future absolutely cannot be changed. Though the Oracle's own statement's suggest otherwise ("it was worth a shot though," "I don't want to influence anything"). I agree that Belkar dying is the MOST LIKELY scenario, but it isn't the only possible scenario by a long shot. There are a number of different ways this could happen.

Durgok

2010-02-09, 01:12 AM

factotum

2010-02-09, 02:24 AM

I think my point was that we don't know that events in OOTS world are predestined.

Er, we have an Oracle who can predict the future and whose predictions (the ones that have come to pass, at any rate) have been 100% accurate so far. What makes you think that OotS ISN'T predestined, given that evidence?

Temotei

2010-02-09, 02:28 AM

Er, we have an Oracle who can predict the future and whose predictions (the ones that have come to pass, at any rate) have been 100% accurate so far. What makes you think that OotS ISN'T predestined, given that evidence?

From a reader's perspective, it's basically finished, as far as we know.

From someone in the Order's perspective, the story can be changed based on their actions. That's why they do what they do, instead of randomly decide to eat babies and bathe in the leftover blood. They think they can make a difference in the story, for better or for worse.

Morty

2010-02-09, 10:15 AM

ThePhantasm

2010-02-09, 11:36 AM

Er, we have an Oracle who can predict the future and whose predictions (the ones that have come to pass, at any rate) have been 100% accurate so far. What makes you think that OotS ISN'T predestined, given that evidence?

1) Which one of the gods gets to do the predestining? Predestination doesn't really work in a world with pantheons.

2) The Oracle's predictions have also, for the most part, been self-fulfilling prophecies.

3) The Oracle "peers through the corridors of time" according to his own words. What he sees may not always be accurate or be reality. He isn't an omniscient being.

4) The Oracle seems to suggest (as per the two quotes I gave in my above post) that the future can be altered based on knowledge.

5) Divine beings, even Tiamat, seems surprised by events that they should have forseen, and I am not convinced that the Oracle knew he was sending the black dragon mother to her death.

6) It could follow the LOST theory of time, that one's destiny is somewhat set but a big enough splash in the river of time can thwart destiny. V's power surge was a pretty big splash.

7) Let's say for the past four years I've correctly predicted the Super Bowl winner. Does that make me a prophet? The ability to accurately guess the near future on the Oracle's part doesn't necessitate that the OOTS universe operates in a predestinarian fashion.

SurvivorX

2010-02-09, 12:03 PM

7) Let's say for the past four years I've correctly predicted the Super Bowl winner. Does that make me a prophet? The ability to accurately guess the near future on the Oracle's part doesn't necessitate that the OOTS universe operates in a predestinarian fashion.

This is the only part of your post I disagree with.

You can predict a Super Bowl winner by looking at the two teams, sizing up which team has which good players, bad players, their strategy, etc. It's prediction, which is a lot different (and a lot less accurate) than predestination.

The Oracle, on the other hand, has a lot less to go by. Take V's prophecy, and how specific the prerequisites were: "saying the right four words at the right time to the right being for all the wrong reasons". There's just no way for him to have known all that, outside of predestination.

ThePhantasm

2010-02-09, 12:25 PM

This is the only part of your post I disagree with.

You can predict a Super Bowl winner by looking at the two teams, sizing up which team has which good players, bad players, their strategy, etc. It's prediction, which is a lot different (and a lot less accurate) than predestination.

The Oracle, on the other hand, has a lot less to go by. Take V's prophecy, and how specific the prerequisites were: "saying the right four words at the right time to the right being for all the wrong reasons". There's just no way for him to have known all that, outside of predestination.

Well, all analogies are flawed, and I agree that probably wasn't the best analogy. But the Oracle does have some things to go by. Let us say, for example, that he has some past knowledge of V's goals and aspirations, he has some vague future knowledge of the ICC's plans, etc. These things could add up to a more accurate guess. Also, just because something HAPPENED doesn't mean that it could also have NOT HAPPENED, had circumstances been different, as per the other points of my post. I admit though, the 4 words prophecy is a bit difficult to simply explain away, but it doesn't convince me that the Oracle is in any was inerrant or infallible.

Neopolis

2010-02-09, 12:31 PM

Anyone think that that doesn't necessarily mean he will die?

I mean, drawing your last breath and not long for this world could be taken as "drawing your last breath in this world."

And we all know now there is another world on the other side of the rift. Just sayin'.
Then again, that'd mean he wouldn't come back. This can only mean that he will die there.

Not to mention they were two different prophecies. He'd draw his last breath EVER and he wouldn't be long for this world.

SensFan

2010-02-09, 11:17 PM

It's absolutely ridiculous to even speculate that the Oracle has anything less than 100% chance of being right without a doubt with every single one of his predictions.

*He knew Belkar would kill him
*He knew exactly how V would get Ultimate Arcane Power
*He knew where Xykon was when R/D went to visit him
*He knew the exact order in which Xykon would visit the last 3 Gates
*He knew that Nale would impersonate Elan and ask Haley out
*He knew where V was, as well as V's family, when the dragon came calling
*He knew the exact time that anyone has ever killed him, as well as the time of his next death

And that's just off the top of my head.

Watcher

2010-02-09, 11:43 PM

His body was still there. :smallcool: He's still part of the world, technically...

"I can only scry on people. Your body (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) is an object now-a big, dumb object..."

Belkar the person isn't long for the world. The corpse left over after Belkar is gone may be for however long you like. This is how I interpret it, anyway.

ThePhantasm

2010-02-16, 04:00 PM

Do I have to serve up some of my world-famous* copypasta?

This + expression on your avatar's face = awesome

Bagelz

2010-02-16, 05:45 PM

has anyone proposed that belkar will recieve a ring of sustainance?

This will make breathing (his last breath) and eating (savor his birthday cake) not neccessary. If he can't take it off, then he'd have no choice.

The not investing in an ira doesn't quite fit, but the rest does.

Gift Jeraff

2010-02-16, 05:51 PM

but the rest does.
Not long for this world?

Beowulf DW

2010-02-16, 05:52 PM

"Always in motion is the future."

Doesn't the oracle alter the future with some of his prophesies? When people act on the information he gives them, they change the future a bit. He even implied this himself when Roy asked him which gate Xykon would attack first. He seemed almost desperate to get Roy to make his question more general. If anything, this implies that with the right knowledge the future can be altered, although at the time it is altered it's become the present...

...I need to get off this forum before my head starts to hurt...

Kish

2010-02-16, 05:54 PM

"Always in motion is the future."

Doesn't the oracle alter the future with some of his prophesies? When people act on the information he gives them, they change the future a bit. He even implied this himself when Roy asked him which gate Xykon would attack first.
He may have implied it, but not there. Which gate Xykon was headed for was already decided. He wanted Roy to ask him a question to which the answer would be "Azure City."

multilis

2010-02-16, 06:08 PM

I think http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html is better potential clue on Belkar's destiny. "Play the game... If you laugh and spit in their faces enough times... kick you out of house (...which means killing you)"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html "Passcode: Evolve or die"

Beowulf DW

2010-02-16, 06:23 PM

He may have implied it, but not there. Which gate Xykon was headed for was already decided. He wanted Roy to ask him a question to which the answer would be "Azure City."

Yes, but if Roy had alerted Azure City earlier, the Azurites could have called upon their allies, set up ambushes, and might have defeated the hobgoblins.

Kish

2010-02-16, 06:28 PM

Yes, but if Roy had alerted Azure City earlier, the Azurites could have called upon their allies, set up ambushes, and might have defeated the hobgoblins.
...and? If Roy had asked the question the Oracle suggested--"Which gate is Xykon heading towards next?"--the answer would have been, "The Azure City gate." It would take hard work and dedication to phrase a version of the question which included the Azure City gate and to which the correct answer wasn't, "The Azure City gate." As it is, confronted with a question the Oracle wasn't expecting and didn't want to answer about a future action which the person in question hadn't decided on yet, the Oracle still (as evidenced by which Gate Xykon and Redcloak are now planning to head for next) answered correctly.

Roupe

2010-02-16, 08:20 PM

I think Belkars destiny lies here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html

Leaving the world for another, never ever returning;would fulfill the prophesy. Still living -but breathing the air there (in the other world). Perhaps the rift needs to be sealed from within.

Beowulf DW

2010-02-17, 12:08 AM

...and? If Roy had asked the question the Oracle suggested--"Which gate is Xykon heading towards next?"--the answer would have been, "The Azure City gate." It would take hard work and dedication to phrase a version of the question which included the Azure City gate and to which the correct answer wasn't, "The Azure City gate." As it is, confronted with a question the Oracle wasn't expecting and didn't want to answer about a future action which the person in question hadn't decided on yet, the Oracle still (as evidenced by which Gate Xykon and Redcloak are now planning to head for next) answered correctly.

My point was that Azure City might not have fallen.

Math_Mage

2010-02-17, 12:37 AM

My point was that Azure City might not have fallen.

Which is not synonymous with Xykon not being within 1000 feet of Azure City's gate before anything else.

Studoku

2010-02-17, 01:43 AM

I agree, Belkar dying does seem to be the most plausible... but having read the comic for quite a while (just been too lazy to register a forum account until recent, been lurking here for a while too) it would seem that Rich very seldomly takes the "this seems most likely" scenario.
It's more a case of taking the option that virtually nobody expected.

In this case, either:
Belkar dying, since a significant number of people seem convinced it won't happen.
A loophole for Belkar surviving which nobody has thought of.

Beowulf DW

2010-02-17, 03:58 AM

Which is not synonymous with Xykon not being within 1000 feet of Azure City's gate before anything else.

But it IS synonymous with "altering the future" like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

Math_Mage

2010-02-17, 04:31 AM

But it IS synonymous with "altering the future" like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

Yeah, I think I misinterpreted your post as indicating that had the Oracle given 'Azure City' as the Third Option to Roy's two-choice question, Azure City might not have fallen and the Oracle's prophecy would have been false as a result. Oops. :smallredface:

Kish

2010-02-17, 06:15 AM

But it IS synonymous with "altering the future" like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.
The entire comic wouldn't exist if the Oracle's answers couldn't have any effect on the future, as Eugene would never have learned that Xykon is named Xykon.

Beowulf DW

2010-02-18, 03:11 AM

Yeah, I think I misinterpreted your post as indicating that had the Oracle given 'Azure City' as the Third Option to Roy's two-choice question, Azure City might not have fallen and the Oracle's prophecy would have been false as a result. Oops. :smallredface:

No biggy, we're talking about the nature of time itself, so confusion is inevitable.:smallsmile:

OITS

2010-03-11, 05:46 PM

The first post has some quite interesting content in it. If I remember correctly, Rich somewhen stated, that as Belkar is a member of the OotS, there will always be an eye on him, even if he'll die. Now, he isn't anymore, so he can easily dispose him, without having to care about this statement. Well played, well played. Finally, we get rid of Belkar :)

Caerwyn

2010-03-11, 06:49 PM

Does anyone have any speculation how the "not long for this world" statement might possibly match up with the fact there is a second world "inside" the rift?

Personally, I still think Belkar is deader than disco (stayin' alive! stayin' alive!), but if Belkar falls into the rift, he might theoretically survive reentry (falling damage still caps out at 20d10, right?), and if so he is technically on a different "world."

Just adding my less-than-entirely-thought-out 2cp speculation. :smallbiggrin:

Caerwyn

Kish

2010-03-11, 06:58 PM

Does anyone have any speculation how the "not long for this world" statement might possibly match up with the fact there is a second world "inside" the rift?
He'd also need to stop breathing. :smalltongue: And then, well, for most people who argue for Belkar's continued survival (of which I see from the rest of your post that you're not one), Belkar staying in the story seems to be much of the point. If he goes to the world in the rift permanently and the rest of the Order either never goes there or returns to the main world, he wouldn't be in the story.

salinan

2010-03-11, 08:40 PM

Taking a different tack to support the idea that the prophecies really do mean that Belkar will die: I doubt Rich would forgive himself if he passed up the opportunity to portray Belkar in the afterlife.

I seem to recall that Rich said something along these lines, but my crappy memory can't tell me whether he was regretting not doing it for Miko, or thought it would be an interesting idea for Belkar, or neither, or both!

Kish

2010-03-11, 08:49 PM

He regretted the missed opportunity to have Miko kill Belkar so that he could make afterlife jokes. Then he did afterlife jokes with Roy.

Whether he feels a particular desire to do Abyssal/Belkarish afterlife scenes is questionable.

multilis

2010-03-19, 05:02 AM

Ancalagon

2010-03-19, 05:41 AM

Darth Vader "killed" Luke's father by drastic flip from Chaotic Good to Lawful Evil, small chance that Belkar could become Lawful Good or some similar drastic flip.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

Hum? Really, it's nowhere in Belkar's character. It's simply not there (at least not in the comic that I read).