PDA

View Full Version : 3.5: Increasing Sorcerer's Spells Known



Protecar
2010-02-08, 01:27 PM
Again, the title is pretty self-explanatory. I was thinking of being a sorcerer--but the amount of spells known is pretty scant for the class and I was wondering if there was a way around that.

The spontaneous casting is really appealing and I would like to try a class that can do that.

Thanks in advance. :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2010-02-08, 01:28 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order will take some extra qualifying to get into, but it'll make you a versatile monster.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-08, 03:09 PM
Play a Beholder Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7809640#post7809640) instead and get infinite spells known. :smallbiggrin:

I jest. Seriously, Arcane Disciple or Extra Spell.

gorfnab
2010-02-08, 03:19 PM
Rainbow Servant (CD)

Fizban
2010-02-08, 03:23 PM
Normally I'd suggest Sand Shaper, but it has come to my attention that the Summon Deserty Ally spells suck, so most of that list is worthless. Fiend Blooded from Heroes of Horror is always good. Or Bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine.

DementedFellow
2010-02-08, 03:23 PM
Sand Shaper PrC from Sandstorm gives some nice utility spells and it has a really neat capstone.

arguskos
2010-02-08, 03:25 PM
Dragon #...330, I believe, has Knowstones. Each one holds a single spell that as long as you have the stone, you know and can cast normally.

Saph
2010-02-08, 03:26 PM
Items are the best way to do it, once you have a decent amount of WBL to play with, and the Heritage feats help too. The 9th-level Sorcerer I'm currently playing has effectively 40 spells known - enough that it's pretty hard to remember them all.

Draz74
2010-02-08, 03:30 PM
Rainbow Servant (CD)

Doesn't help. It just lets you pick spells known off the Cleric list; you're still limited to the same number of spells known as before.

Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium) are the best way to increase a Sorcerer's spells known, IMHO. Their 1/day-per-spell limitation is silly and annoying, but easily ignored; and other than that, they're quite well-balanced and thematic.

You could also look up a different spontaneous casting class, one that knows all of the spells on its list automatically (Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer), but all of them come with highly specialized spell lists, so I actually like Sorcerer better.

So yeah. I say just play a Sorcerer, with a Runestaff or two. And Knowstones if your DM allows them.

EDIT: Of course, you should also pick flexible spells. Never pick See Invisibility, for example, when Glitterdust has almost the same utility and doubles as an attack spell. Shadow Conjuration and, eventually, Greater Shadow Evocation are very nice options, and even with a small XP cost, Limited Wish is a tempting option.

lvl 1 sharnian
2010-02-08, 04:10 PM
Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium) are the best way to increase a Sorcerer's spells known, IMHO. Their 1/day-per-spell limitation is silly and annoying, but easily ignored; and other than that, they're quite well-balanced and thematic.

So yeah. I say just play a Sorcerer, with a Runestaff or two. And Knowstones if your DM allows them.


Actually, you can have up to 3 spells 3/day per staff and their cast at your level. I remember I had a sorcerer with over 100 spells known at level 13 with these. (Ok, some of them were Sandshaper spells)

Teron
2010-02-08, 04:10 PM
Dragon 330 has eleven or so Far Realm themed spells that you can learn by making a Knowledge (the Planes) check, spending a few thousand gold and sacrificing a point of Con. If memory serves, most of them are decent, and you can get more power out of them with a voluntary Will save at some risk to yourself.

Protecar
2010-02-08, 04:15 PM
A lot of interesting responses I hadn't found on my own. Is there a way to access these dragon magazines online?

Also, where can I find these things:

Rainbow Servant
Arcane Disciple
Extra Spell

Thanks again to the replies, they are all appreciated! :smallbiggrin:

valadil
2010-02-08, 04:16 PM
Normally I'd suggest Sand Shaper, but it has come to my attention that the Summon Deserty Ally spells suck, so most of that list is worthless. Fiend Blooded from Heroes of Horror is always good. Or Bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine.

I'm a big fan of the Bloodline feats. They give you a preselected spell of each level. Usually there are two or three good spells per list. Keep in mind that the only prereq is a level 1 spontaneous caster, so they can expand your bard, duskblade, or beguiler lists too.

arguskos
2010-02-08, 04:23 PM
I'm a big fan of the Bloodline feats. They give you a preselected spell of each level. Usually there are two or three good spells per list. Keep in mind that the only prereq is a level 1 spontaneous caster, so they can expand your bard, duskblade, or beguiler lists too.
The Bloodline feats were reprinted in Dragon Compendium, so no need to hunt through old Dragon magazines for them. If only Knowstones were too. :smallsigh:

Saph
2010-02-08, 04:25 PM
Actually, you can have up to 3 spells 3/day per staff and their cast at your level. I remember I had a sorcerer with over 100 spells known at level 13 with these. (Ok, some of them were Sandshaper spells)

You know you can only be attuned to one Runestaff at a time, right? Or did you miss that rule? :P

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-08, 04:41 PM
A lot of interesting responses I hadn't found on my own. Is there a way to access these dragon magazines online?

Also, where can I find these things:

Rainbow Servant
Arcane Disciple
Extra Spell

Thanks again to the replies, they are all appreciated! :smallbiggrin:

Those first two don't do anything. They expand your spell list, not your spells known.

Draz74
2010-02-08, 04:42 PM
Also, where can I find these things:

Rainbow Servant
A PrC in Complete Divine, I believe.


Arcane Disciple
A feat in Complete Divine.


Extra Spell

A feat in Complete Arcane.

Protecar
2010-02-08, 04:42 PM
Those first two don't do anything. They expand your spell list, not your spells known.

Awww... :smallfrown: But now how am I gonna make a sorceror with extra spells?

Edit: Thanks Draz, does Extra Spell give another spell known?

Chaelos
2010-02-08, 04:44 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order, while bearing significant limitations, essentially enables a sorcerer to cast anything he wants.

holywhippet
2010-02-08, 04:44 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order will take some extra qualifying to get into, but it'll make you a versatile monster.

I've never been entirely sure about this prestige class. It says that your bonus for certain levels is to get an extra spell in your spellbook. Sorcerers don't use spellbooks.

Chaelos
2010-02-08, 04:46 PM
It's certainly geared more for wizards, but there's a feat in Complete Arcane (Arcane Preparation) that allows a sorcerer to meet the essential requirements for the MotAO class just like a wizard.

EDIT: And, for reference's sake, MotAO is also from Complete Arcane, so this isn't some weird multi-source book cross-reference cheese.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-08, 04:50 PM
I've never been entirely sure about this prestige class. It says that your bonus for certain levels is to get an extra spell in your spellbook. Sorcerers don't use spellbooks.

Who cares? It gives you basically the entire Wizard/Sorcerer spell list as your spells known.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 04:56 PM
I've never been entirely sure about this prestige class. It says that your bonus for certain levels is to get an extra spell in your spellbook. Sorcerers don't use spellbooks.

Right, but if you've taken the feats that allows you to prepare spells from a spellbook (can someone remind wha they are) then you're ok. Moreover, what is really nice about Mage of the Arcane Order is the ability to get pretty close to any spell on the fly.

Chaelos
2010-02-08, 04:58 PM
Also, I just looked the class up once again. There's expressly a line about "Spellcasters who do not use spellbooks" not getting the benefit of the "New Spells" added at some of the levels in this class; this implies that spontaneous casters are able to join the class and receive all other benefits from it.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-08, 05:04 PM
Also, I just looked the class up once again. There's expressly a line about "Spellcasters who do not use spellbooks" not getting the benefit of the "New Spells" added at some of the levels in this class; this implies that spontaneous casters are able to join the class and receive all other benefits from it.

Alternatively, prepared spellcasters who don't use spellbooks. There are a couple.

Protecar
2010-02-08, 05:11 PM
Yeah, I've looked at MotAO but I was trying to make a sorcerer/binder/Anima Mage to give me some room to play around with different things(vestiges and spontaneous magic)--so I don't really have room for that prestige class. :smallconfused:

Of course, I'm open to any suggestions though. :smallsmile:

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 05:12 PM
Yeah, I've looked at MotAO but I was trying to make a sorcerer/binder/Anima Mage to give me some room to play around with different things(vestiges and spontaneous magic)--so I don't really have room for that prestige class. :smallconfused:

Of course, I'm open to any suggestions though. :smallsmile:

That's a very strong build if well-played. If you pick your daily vestiges well you won't have much need for additional spells known.

Protecar
2010-02-08, 05:18 PM
That's a very strong build if well-played. If you pick your daily vestiges well you won't have much need for additional spells known.

Bolded the key words. :smallredface: I'm pretty open to admitting that I'm far from an optimal player. I like to play with more fun little things like evocation spells(sometimes) and even leering at the vestiges for a while, they don't seem like they provide much synergy for what the sorcerer does.

Then again, what do I know? *shrug*

Lysander
2010-02-08, 05:22 PM
What about carrying eternal wands of spells not on your spell list? It'd let you cast it twice daily.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 05:26 PM
Bolded the key words. :smallredface: I'm pretty open to admitting that I'm far from an optimal player. I like to play with more fun little things like evocation spells(sometimes) and even leering at the vestiges for a while, they don't seem like they provide much synergy for what the sorcerer does.

Then again, what do I know? *shrug*

Ok. In that case, you probably want the vestige (whose name I forget, it isn't in ToM but is in some official WoTC webpage) that allows you to summon monsters. That gives you a lot of fairly obvious on the fly tricks. After that, change your vestiges based on what you are expecting to fight. A lot of vestiges have abilities that specifically effect specific creature types or are obviously useful when dealing with specific creatures.

Vaynor
2010-02-08, 05:44 PM
Runestaves are a great, cheap way to cast your daily buff or extended buff spells. You can get a pretty high level spell 1/day on a runestaff.

As for knowstones, it's pretty simple. They cost spell level ^2 * 1000 each.

Irreverent Fool
2010-02-08, 05:45 PM
What about carrying eternal wands of spells not on your spell list? It'd let you cast it twice daily.

Do you mean eternal wands of spells not known? To use wands not on one's spell list would require Use Magic Device checks.

obnoxious
sig

Beorn080
2010-02-08, 05:51 PM
Assuming he is using those wands to merely expand his ability to cast spells from the Sorc/wiz lists, he wouldn't need UMD. That actually sounds like a good idea for a Sorc trying to get more variety, plus others can use the wand too if they need it.

Lysander
2010-02-08, 05:52 PM
Do you mean eternal wands of spells not known? To use wands not on one's spell list would require Use Magic Device checks.

obnoxious
sig

I meant personal spell list, rather than class. But it's pretty useful to get eternal wands for cross-class spells like healing magic.

Orran
2010-02-08, 05:55 PM
Most of it's already been mentioned, but a useful item is a robe of mysterious conjuration, for 10k it allows you to cast any of the summon monster spells 3/day with your own spell slots.

Jacob Orlove
2010-02-08, 07:19 PM
Don't neglect regular wands! A Wand of Solid Fog is expensive (21,000gp), but there's no save or SR, so it doesn't hurt that you're not getting it on a Runestaff. See if you can get your party members to chip in; the sooner you get it, the sooner fights become twice as easy.

Normally, wands are good for expanding your spell list with utility spells that you'd use occasionally but don't need a high CL or save DC. Enlarge Person is a good choice for buffing party members, Levitate and Invisibility are usually fine with a 3 minute duration, Silent Image has a duration of concentration and works best when you don't give them a chance to save anyway, et cetera. Solid Fog is one of the few offensive choices that works well out of a wand, and at only 420 gp per cast, it'll win you plenty of fights for about the cost of a level 2 potion.

Teron
2010-02-08, 07:38 PM
Do you mean eternal wands of spells not known? To use wands not on one's spell list would require Use Magic Device checks.

obnoxious
sig
Eternal wands can be activated automatically by any arcane caster.

Irreverent Fool
2010-02-08, 09:14 PM
Eternal wands can be activated automatically by any arcane caster.

My mistake.

I have to say that the Mage of the Arcane Order seems to be the best bet for a sorcerer to effectively expand his list. With the sheer number of spell slots you'll have at higher-level, you'll be hard-pressed to use them up even when you're paying back your spellpool debt and acquiring more at the same time.

obnoxious
sig

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-08, 09:16 PM
Isn't there a Complete Arcane feat that lets you learn a new spell?

Eldariel
2010-02-09, 12:56 AM
Ways for a Sorcerer to gain additional spells known (http://web.archive.org/web/20080502172243rn_1/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-616344) - may be of interest.

Winter_Wolf
2010-02-09, 01:08 AM
Burn some feats. I'm absolutely certain I have a book somewhere that has a feat wherein you burn a feat (when you get one, and no retroactive swapping out) and get two spells. To my recollection, it doesn't even matter what spell level the two spells are from, as long as you're high enough level to cast them.

Might have been Unearthed Arcana, since I know I own the book, but at the moment I can't recall owning another book that isn't specific to aberrations, undead, or Frostburn.

ryzouken
2010-02-09, 01:33 AM
assuming you've not hellbent on running a sorcerer and instead might consider other spontaneous arcane casters, you might consider the Warmage. It, too, has a limited spell list, but can cast anything on the list spontaneously.

Then you could go Rainbow Servant from the Complete Divine and add the entire cleric list to your warmage list (after 10 levels).

That'd be the spontaneous caster I'd run if I were worried about spells known.

sambo.
2010-02-09, 02:02 AM
perhaps ask your DM for a minor homebrew solution.

for example: homebrew so the feat Extra Spell gives a sorcerer Int bonus extra spells known.

or Cha bonus levels of extra spells. so a +4 Cha bonus allows you to learn one extra 4th level spell, one 1st and one third or two second level spells or one second level and two first level spells, etc.

TheFallenOne
2010-02-09, 05:46 PM
Ah, that threat came up at the right time

Any way for a first level bard to get access to a 0-level spell from the wizard and cleric lists(Amanuensis, Spell Compendium?

Getsugaru
2011-01-04, 04:53 PM
You don't need more spells. You are a Sorcerer. You have infinite access to the best spell in the game. In the Spell Compendium, there is a spell called Launch Bolt. It is a 0 level spell that can easily be exploited if you're a Sorcerer, since you get Eschew Materials. Basically, you shoot a crossbow bolt without a crossbow; and since you can shoot any kind of crossbow bolt, you can shoot bolts for a colossal crossbow, a.k.a. Balista Bolts, for free! A Balista Bolt deals 6d8 damage and costs only 8sp, and with Eschew Materials, you don't need to buy, or even have with you, a Balista Bolt and yet you can still fire one. ULTIMATE SPELL EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Note: Your DM's permission may be required to exploit Launch Bolt in this manner. Some restrictions may apply. This is meant to be exploited by professionals, and may cause itching, nose bleeds, alignment change, and the urge to destroy everything in sight. If you experience any of these, stop using the spell immediately and contact your local cleric of an alignment of LG, NG, CG, LN, N, or CN for a remove broken cheesiness spell to remove the silliness flowing through your body and your mind. :smallbiggrin:

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-04, 05:30 PM
Don't forget about the spell Animate Thread
:smalltongue:

{Scrubbed}

averagejoe
2011-01-04, 08:20 PM
The Mod They Call Me: Foul abomination, be cast back into the pit from whence you came!

*ahem*

That is, thread necromancy.