PDA

View Full Version : Devil Fightin'



subject42
2010-02-08, 02:43 PM
Assuming you had the following party, what kind of tactics, items, and spells would you use if you were about to enter a very devil-centric arc of your campaign? I have a feeling that we're heading that direction and I'd like some suggestions.

CN Gnome Bard 11 - Specializes in illusions and sonic attacks, with a sprinkling of group buffs and shooting people in the shins with pistols.

CN Human Wizard 11 - Generalist, but tends to stick to the spells that make bad guys disintegrate, catch on fire, explode, or generally die.

LG Human Paladin 11 - Using the Rebalanced Paladin. Highly Charismatic and strong. SMITES first and asks questions later.

CN Human Cloistered Cleric 11 - Knowledge, Healing, and Trickery domains. Acts as a giant utility belt and healing battery.

fryplink
2010-02-08, 02:54 PM
what sort of "devil centric" are we talking here? fighting devils? venturing to the city of brass and trying to negotiate with devils (they are LE, the lawful part makes it plausible to negotiate, though the paladin might make it unlikely?) whats are goals of the campaign at this time? etc

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-08, 02:56 PM
Merge into Voltron.

Commence destruction.

Ormagoden
2010-02-08, 03:07 PM
And I'll form the head!

subject42
2010-02-08, 03:14 PM
what sort of "devil centric" are we talking here? fighting devils?

If I have to hazard a guess, I think we'll be busting a clandestine cabal of cultists that are secretly infiltrating the bureaucracy of a Dwarven city. Given that, I'm expecting mad cultists, duped Dwarven military units, and a healthy dose of both summoned and plane-shifted devils.

Gnorman
2010-02-08, 03:16 PM
You're going to need to change your tactics, at least spell-wise. Blasting spells are fairly subpar against devils, what with their spell resistance and energy immunities and defenses.

Remember, devils are creatures of law. They're intelligent and manipulative, but they're also quite rigid and disciplined. This means that they're slow to adapt to an unpredictable, ever-changing force. At your level, you won't be facing single devils as likely as you'll be facing coordinated squads (likely of hamatulas, erinyes, and osyluths, maybe the odd gelugon if your DM thinks you can handle it). The devils will use battlefield control to split your party, divide and conquer. That is, if your DM is using them intelligently.

Spell-like abilities are crucial to the success of most outsiders in battle. Anything you can do to negate or otherwise hinder their use of such will be helpful. Dimensional Anchor will be useful to prevent them from teleporting around at their whim. Assay Spell Resistance will be helpful as well.

Watch your paladin - if he's a smite-first ask-questions-later type, he's easy fodder for fiendish trickery. They'll likely take on the guises of innocents until the paladin is practically convinced that every innocent he meets is a devil in disguise. Then smite. Then bad times. Detect Evil can be fooled, after all.


If I have to hazard a guess, I think we'll be busting a clandestine cabal of cultists that are secretly infiltrating the bureaucracy of a Dwarven city. Given that, I'm expecting mad cultists, duped Dwarven military units, and a healthy dose of both summoned and plane-shifted devils.

Mad cultists are more of a demon thing. Devil worshippers are likely power hungry and greedy, but not necessarily insane. They just have found an expedient way towards temporal power, and they're willing to broker deals with fell entities to achieve those ends. Lawful Evil is so predictable, after all. If you're willing to make your paladin uncomfortable, play with the expectations of the lawful ones. Break your word. Use tricky and underhanded tactics. Sucker punch them. And then, when your enemy is on their toes and looking left and right for your next move, you fade into the background and leave them feeling confused and paranoid. Guerilla tactics. Wait for an opening - wait for them to breathe that sigh of relief. Then strike again.

I have a feeling your bard might be your greatest asset against the devils. He'll be able to prey upon their adherence to tradition and procedure the easiest. But don't rely on illusions - devils are intimately familiar with such magic.

If you're feeling devious and want to stir up some Blood War magic, summon a few demons to throw into the fray. Or slaad, as the case may be. They're creatures of pure chaos, so they'd be more than happy to help your cause against the cursed, hated, lawful baatezu. And you're at a level where Planar Binding and Planar Ally is coming into play very prominently.

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 03:26 PM
CN Human Cloistered Cleric 11 - Knowledge, Healing, and Trickery domains. Acts as a giant utility belt and healing battery.

What a waste of a good cleric :smallfrown:

Spam Dismissal.

Renegade Paladin
2010-02-08, 03:27 PM
Devils don't forget. If you attack one demon, you've attacked a demon. If you attack one devil, you've attacked them all.

If your DM has access to Tyrants of the Nine Hells, he's had this drilled into him by the fluff therein. Plan accordingly.

arguskos
2010-02-08, 03:28 PM
Remember, devils are creatures of law. They're intelligent and manipulative, but they're also quite rigid and disciplined. They're not used to creative thinking, nor do they know quite how to deal with an unpredictable force.
Everything Gnorman said is good advice, save for this. Yes, they are rigidly lawful, but they're also used to fighting the highly disordered and unpredictable demons in the Blood War. They can handle disorder. They CAN'T handle opponents who blend ordered plans with creative adaptation.

Devils don't adapt, and that's the key. Once you work out their plan, you can adapt to it, and they probably won't adapt to yours that quickly. Use those minutes before they adjust to your advantage.

subject42
2010-02-08, 03:36 PM
What a waste of a good cleric :smallfrown:

Spam Dismissal.

The cleric is my characer. I know he's sub-optimal, but he's just so much darn fun to play that I'm not terribly worried about it.

There's something awesome about seeing the rest of your party so pumped up with your buffs that they just steamroll everything they encounter, leaving you to do clean-up afterwards.

Failing that, divine power + knowledge devotion gets the job done.

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 03:38 PM
Devils don't forget. If you attack one demon, you've attacked a demon. If you attack one devil, you've attacked them all.

You're kidding. The biggest threat to most Devils is other Devils - especially rivals for promotion.


The cleric is my characer. I know he's sub-optimal, but he's just so much darn fun to play that I'm not terribly worried about it.

There's something awesome about seeing the rest of your party so pumped up with your buffs that they just steamroll everything they encounter, leaving you to do clean-up afterwards.

Failing that, divine power + knowledge devotion gets the job done.

It's not the buffs I have a problem with, it's the healing. Those actions are better spent killing the enemy.

subject42
2010-02-08, 03:42 PM
It's not the buffs I have a problem with, it's the healing. Those actions are better spent killing the enemy.

No worries there. It's mostly out of combat stuff. The only exceptions are heal, revivify, and sometimes lesser regeneration.

Arcane_Secrets
2010-02-08, 03:52 PM
Fire is generally of extremely limited use against devils given that most of them are immune to it (including gelugons in the Pathfinder version of them). Acid and lightning work equally well against everyone.

Try and get access to damage-dealing spells with the [Good] descriptor in case you have to deal with anything that has regeneration, or make sure you save your smites as best as possible for blows that you think can finish off devils that have regen.

Since all of them are capable of teleportation, I suspect that you might want dimensional anchor spells to keep them from fleeing to recuperate (especially if they have natural regeneration), regrouping, or surrounding you by altering their positions a lot.

Gnorman
2010-02-08, 03:54 PM
Everything Gnorman said is good advice, save for this. Yes, they are rigidly lawful, but they're also used to fighting the highly disordered and unpredictable demons in the Blood War. They can handle disorder. They CAN'T handle opponents who blend ordered plans with creative adaptation.

Devils don't adapt, and that's the key. Once you work out their plan, you can adapt to it, and they probably won't adapt to yours that quickly. Use those minutes before they adjust to your advantage.

Yes, this is more of what I meant to say. Unpredictability is key. Even against demons, devils know what to expect. They expect the unexpected, a chaotic whirlwind of claws and teeth and shifting plans (after all, demons are no slouches mentally, and can be excellent tacticians). But if you're unpredictable (even to the point of doing exactly what they'd expect you to do, simply because they might not be expecting it ) and you're constantly shifting your strategy, if you stay two steps ahead of them at all times, you'll have a better shot.

I know that sounds confusing, but it makes sense in my head. Devils know how to deal with chaos. They know how to deal with law. They don't know how to deal with a party that's constantly shifting between the two. You have to mix a little law in with your chaos, because it'll make you that much more confusing to them.


Devils don't forget. If you attack one demon, you've attacked a demon. If you attack one devil, you've attacked them all.

No, no, no, no. If you take out a lowly spinagon, Asmodeus is not going to come after you. As was mentioned earlier, you likely just took out someone's competition for promotion. They're not going to care. In fact, they'd probably shake your hand. They put up the [I]pretense of being a unified front, but there's so much backstabbing and intrigue going on within the ranks that I'd be very very surprised if you brought the hammer of the hells down on you.

Zanatos777
2010-02-08, 03:54 PM
As someone who ran a devil centric game I can tell you to defend yourself when you sleep. Devils are smart, they will attack your weaknesses.

Little excerpt form the game I ran: One player went out with a woman, they did the whole song and dance and went back to her place. I asked him no less than 7 times for confirmation if he was going to actually sleep at her place. He did and died (this didn't surprise anyone else at the table as they knew the devils were out to get them, though it was mean of me I admit). Later the same character attacked the same devil on a roof-top. She teleported away and he walked down to the street bought a ring of sustenance and returned to the same roof to sleep! The devil returned and killed him (I did gave him listen check).

The long and short of it is these guys are mean. Expect meanness.

Gnorman
2010-02-08, 04:00 PM
As someone who ran a devil centric game I can tell you to defend yourself when you sleep. Devils are smart, they will attack your weaknesses.

Little excerpt form the game I ran: One player went out with a woman, they did the whole song and dance and went back to her place. I asked him no less than 7 times for confirmation if he was going to actually sleep at her place. He did and died (this didn't surprise anyone else at the table as they knew the devils were out to get them, though it was mean of me I admit). Later the same character attacked the same devil on a roof-top. She teleported away and he walked down to the street bought a ring of sustenance and returned to the same roof to sleep! The devil returned and killed him (I did gave him listen check).

The long and short of it is these guys are mean. Expect meanness.

Cardinal rule of gaming: every NPC is a succubus or an erinyes in disguise. Don't sleep with anything, as much as you may want to.

This isn't even that smart for a devil. They're capable of much more elaborate machinations than this - but why use a maul when a mallet will do? With your players, it must have been like shooting babies in a barrel.

subject42
2010-02-08, 04:02 PM
Later the same character attacked the same devil on a roof-top. She teleported away and he walked down to the street bought a ring of sustenance and returned to the same roof to sleep! The devil returned and killed him (I did gave him listen check).

After being resurrected, I assume?

Zanatos777
2010-02-08, 04:19 PM
Cardinal rule of gaming: every NPC is a succubus or an erinyes in disguise. Don't sleep with anything, as much as you may want to.

This isn't even that smart for a devil. They're capable of much more elaborate machinations than this - but why use a maul when a mallet will do? With your players, it must have been like shooting babies in a barrel.

It was mostly this player. He often...never thought through his actions.

Also yes he had been resurrected.

chiasaur11
2010-02-08, 04:40 PM
Gnome Bard, eh?

Fiddling contest. Obvious in hindsight.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-08, 04:41 PM
Fiddling contest. Obvious in hindsight.


...

This. Now.

subject42
2010-02-08, 04:54 PM
Gnome Bard, eh?

Fiddling contest. Obvious in hindsight.

The lack of Perform (Strings) on the bard's part makes this a dicey proposition. You don't want to take that bet unless you're the best there's ever been.

chiasaur11
2010-02-08, 04:59 PM
The lack of Perform (Strings) on the bard's part makes this a dicey proposition. You don't want to take that bet unless you're the best there's ever been.

Two words:

Drum solo.

Beorn080
2010-02-08, 05:36 PM
Do not accept any wishes from any entity. Unless you find one of those handy dandy no loophole wish lists. Nothing says Literal Genie like your brand new +5 lute through your head.