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Dragero
2010-02-08, 04:17 PM
I don't have HoH, but i've heard the archivist from that book is extremly powerfull. Could anybody tell me why this is? Does it get 9th level spells early or somthing?

Signmaker
2010-02-08, 04:18 PM
Extremely large pool of spells to learn from. I believe that sums it up.

So, if I'm not mistaken, you can do things like learn Haste as a first level spell (via Trapsmith), and similar other shenanigans.

AslanCross
2010-02-08, 04:19 PM
By using scrolls or other forms of magical writing, he can learn any divine spell. While the spells he can get from leveling up are cleric-only, he can expand his prayer book with spells from the paladin, ranger, druid, and shugenja lists.

Dark knowledge is also a pretty interesting class feature.

Gnorman
2010-02-08, 04:19 PM
It's a full caster.

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 04:19 PM
Basically, they can learn every divine spell (and with sufficient shenanigans, any spell) in the game.


It's a full caster.

So is Warmage :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2010-02-08, 04:20 PM
I don't have HoH, but i've heard the archivist from that book is extremly powerfull. Could anybody tell me why this is? Does it get 9th level spells early or somthing?

No, it gets every Divine spell + Domain spells.

Now think: many domain spells are arcane spells 1 level earlier, but 1/day.
You can just add it to your known so no limit besides spell slot.

Overshee
2010-02-08, 04:20 PM
I don't have HoH, but i've heard the archivist from that book is extremly powerfull. Could anybody tell me why this is? Does it get 9th level spells early or somthing?

He can pretty much cast any spell from any class's spell list just by reading a scroll with the spell on it. It's like a wizard, only with even more ridiculous because he's not limited to just the wizard's spell list AND cast them as a wizard, using a wizard's spell preparation mechanic.


EDIT: minor clarification

Dragero
2010-02-08, 04:21 PM
Wow....ninja army attack!

Thanks guys, that does seem pretty strong!

Gnorman
2010-02-08, 04:21 PM
It's also a full caster.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-08, 04:22 PM
most of the choice arcane spells are available through domains, druid casting or whatever. An Archivist can pick up Scribe Scroll and make a divine scroll of whatever they want so long as they can track down a member of the appropriate class.

Then you've got stuff on partial casters lists that puts powerful spells at a lower level like trapsmith or Adept (Heal as a 4th level), etc...

Oh, and yeah... it's still a full caster...

Da Beast
2010-02-08, 04:22 PM
The archivist is a divine caster who learns spells by copying them from scrolls into a spellbook like a wizard. They're broken because they can learn any divine spell, from any spell list, so long as they can find a scroll of it. With so many PrCs out there with their own spell lists, almost every spell is a divine spell for someone. The fact that a lot of classes that don't get all 9 levels of spells get some good ones at a lower spell level (for example, adepts get heal as a lvl 4 spell, iirc) just makes things worse. On top of all that, they get some other decent class abilities.

Edit: wow, lots of ninjas. Alright, I can add something original. If the party has an artificer, you don't even need to track down all those obscure scrolls. Finding a scroll of the trapsmith version of haste ought to be nearly impossible, but if the artificer can make one at level 1...

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 04:24 PM
People make a big deal about the fact that the archivist gets access to every divine spell in the game. However, in practice, getting more than a few domains relies on a seriously helpful DM. Domain scrolls just aren't that common. Sure, you can go ask every cleric you know to consider scribing a scroll for you, but what fraction of clerics have that feat anyways? And yes, they can get Haste as a first level spell. However, that requires a Trapsmith with the Scribe Scroll feat. In practice, the Archivist is not substantially more broken than the cleric. Clearly a T1 class, but most of the real shennanigans are purely theoreotical.

Overshee
2010-02-08, 04:26 PM
People make a big deal about the fact that the archivist gets access to every divine spell in the game. However, in practice, getting more than a few domains relies on a seriously helpful DM. Domain scrolls just aren't that common. Sure, you can go ask every cleric you know to consider scribing a scroll for you, but what fraction of clerics have that feat anyways? And yes, they can get Haste as a first level spell. However, that requires a Trapsmith with the Scribe Scroll feat. In practice, the Archivist is not substantially more broken than the cleric. Clearly a T1 class, but most of the real shennanigans are purely theoreotical.

It's still essentially everything a wizard is and more...

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-08, 04:29 PM
As stated, the Archivist can learn any divine spells. That includes Cleric, Druid, Shugenja, Adept, Divine Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, all domains from all sources, and multiple PrCs.

They can learn a lot of spells at a lower level than anyone else. For a simple example, Paladins get first-level spells at level 4. That includes Lesser Restoration, a spell Clerics get as a 2nd-level spell, available at level 3. Archivists can learn the Paladin version at level 1.

Also, through arcane-to-divine shenanigans, like Geomancer and Alternate Source Spell, any spell can be made into a divine scroll, allowing the Archivist to learn any spell. A Warlock generally helps with the scroll access.

So is Warmage :smalltongue:
You haven't met the rainbow warsnake yet, have you?

Gnorman
2010-02-08, 04:30 PM
It's also a... oh, never mind.

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 04:31 PM
You haven't met the rainbow warsnake yet, have you?

Using Rainbow Servant to argue that Warmage is good is like using Soulbow to argue that Soulknife is good. A good PrC saves a bad base; it does not prove a good one.

elonin
2010-02-08, 04:32 PM
Is this part of the OGL? From what I read here I'd imagine that a large number of dm's would ban the class. Is this a case where WOTC made a class and didn't predict the scourge they were unleashing? Or was there something else that was being aimed for but they didn't cover the loopholes? WOTC would do well if they were to vett their material by one team that understands the core concepts.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-08, 04:32 PM
Edit: wow, lots of ninjas. Alright, I can add something original. If the party has an artificer, you don't even need to track down all those obscure scrolls. Finding a scroll of the trapsmith version of haste ought to be nearly impossible, but if the artificer can make one at level 1...

Artificer scrolls are artificer scrolls. Not arcane scrolls. Not divine scrolls. No one can learn a spell from them, and anyone who tries to use one has to roll a Use Magic Device check.

Asta Kask
2010-02-08, 04:32 PM
It's a full caster.

What is the significance of this?

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-08, 04:34 PM
What is the significance of this?

All of the Big Five (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer and Archivist) are capable of casting ninth-level spells. They are the most powerful classes in the game.

Wizards have no other class features of note, and are still one of the Big Five. Spellcasting is that good.

shadow_archmagi
2010-02-08, 04:34 PM
It's still essentially everything a wizard is and more...

And, like the wizard, the "And more" is purely at the DM's discretion. I mean, my own party has currently encountered.... zero wizards. They've found a handful of scrolls as random loot, but really not much. I just didn't have any good ideas for wizard-based encounters.

If the party included a wizard his spellbook would be about the size of the default two-spells-per-level right now.

arguskos
2010-02-08, 04:36 PM
Random addition: to get a spell off any spell list, the Archivist and the other caster can collaborate on a scroll. If the Archivist has Scribe Scroll, and the other dude casts the spell, they can make a scroll with the spell on it. I would quote the relevant text, but I forget exactly where it is. Sstoopidtallkid would know though.

Overshee
2010-02-08, 04:36 PM
And, like the wizard, the "And more" is purely at the DM's discretion. I mean, my own party has currently encountered.... zero wizards. They've found a handful of scrolls as random loot, but really not much. I just didn't have any good ideas for wizard-based encounters.

If the party included a wizard his spellbook would be about the size of the default two-spells-per-level right now.

EVERYTHING in DnD is purely at the DM's discretion, so while I acknowledge your argument, it's not like it's a gamebreaker. It's still one of the most powerful classes in the game and can do everything a wizard can do and more.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-08, 04:38 PM
EVERYTHING in DnD is purely at the DM's discretion, so while I acknowledge your argument, it's not like it's a gamebreaker. It's still one of the most powerful classes in the game and can do everything a wizard can do and more.

Can Archivists spontaneously cast miracle from seventh-level spell slots?

Serious question.

deuxhero
2010-02-08, 04:39 PM
You can view archivist legally for free online, it's in an excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3).

Overshee
2010-02-08, 04:40 PM
Can Archivists spontaneously cast miracle from seventh-level spell slots?

Serious question.

If the DM houserules it, yeah they can...

Gnorman
2010-02-08, 04:41 PM
If the DM houserules it, yeah they can...

The DM can houserule that a level 1 fighter can cast Meteor Swarm with a CL of 40 at will.

That doesn't make it legal.

Which is the real point of the question: is it legal?

shadow_archmagi
2010-02-08, 04:42 PM
EVERYTHING in DnD is purely at the DM's discretion, so while I acknowledge your argument, it's not like it's a gamebreaker. It's still one of the most powerful classes in the game and can do everything a wizard can do and more.

Oh, I realize that everything in D&D is at the DM's discretion, but there's a difference between

"This only works with the DM's permission because it is a bit fuzzy on the rules"
and
"This should work fine, assuming the DM doesn't houserule that all barbarians have laser eye beams"
and
"In a stereotypical campaign, you probably won't get much chance to shine here"

I'm referring to the last. I mean, if you took levels in Illithid Slayer, then the statement "This is actually not that great if your DM doesn't use many Illithids" is completely relevant and valid. (Actually it occurs to me that a lot of people take Illithid Slayer for something else; it might grant mind immunity or something?)

Overshee
2010-02-08, 04:44 PM
The DM can houserule that a level 1 fighter can cast Meteor Swarm with a CL of 40 at will.

That doesn't make it legal.

Which is the real point of the question: is it legal?

*shrug* a lot of GMs, including mine, don't have a firm grip on the rules. For example, I've heard a ton of stories about DMs ruling Artificer scrolls as arcane which lets them exchange with Archivists.

jiriku
2010-02-08, 04:47 PM
Random addition: to get a spell off any spell list, the Archivist and the other caster can collaborate on a scroll. If the Archivist has Scribe Scroll, and the other dude casts the spell, they can make a scroll with the spell on it. I would quote the relevant text, but I forget exactly where it is. Sstoopidtallkid would know though.

While I am neither stoopid, nor tall, nor a kid, I can oblige. Personally, I think the interpretation is open to debate, but here are the relevant sections of the SRD.

From the SRD:

Creating Scrolls
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

Also from the SRD:


Creating Magic Items
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 04:48 PM
You haven't met the rainbow warsnake yet, have you?

That's one broken build. There are also broken builds with the CW Samurai (where you get insane things to do with Intimidate). The presence of broken builds, especially when they involve having to use an already very powerful PrC doesn't really help that much. And until you get to high levels in Rainbow Servant, the you suffer from all the standard warmage problems. And I'm not aware of a version of this build that gives you the real goodies before level 19.

But if we need other examples of bad full casters, we can give them. Healers would be an obvious one. Even with cheese like the Sovereign Speaker, that still isn't good.

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 04:51 PM
Wizards have no other class features of note, and are still one of the Big Five. Spellcasting is that good.

Minor nitpick: Spell lists are that good. And the Archivist has the largest.
Spellcasting with a bad/barely supported list... is not good.

Gnaeus
2010-02-08, 04:58 PM
While I am neither stoopid, nor tall, nor a kid, I can oblige. Personally, I think the interpretation is open to debate, but here are the relevant sections of the SRD.


What is open to debate? That 2 casters (1 with scribe scroll, 1 with the relevant spell) can cooperate making a scroll? That is very clear in the DMG (pg 215, section on prerequisites, midway down.)


Anyway, in magic-mart world, archivists are awesome. In a world where they only have access to cleric, druid, ranger, maybe paladin depending on alignment + domain scrolls from common and allied temples, they are good, but not broken. In a campaign like WLD or something else where they can't buy scrolls, they are much weaker than a cleric, due to limited spell selection, lack of turn attempts and domain powers. They still probably live in tier 2 somewhere near the favored soul.

Remember that spell for spell, the cleric list is weaker than the wizard list. The cleric power comes from being able to cherry pick from 900+ spells on any given day, and the archivist can't do that. He can pick the best spells, or the ones that are at below normal level, but it is only really broken in TO or in games with very generous DMs.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-08, 04:59 PM
Is this part of the OGL? From what I read here I'd imagine that a large number of dm's would ban the class. Is this a case where WOTC made a class and didn't predict the scourge they were unleashing? Or was there something else that was being aimed for but they didn't cover the loopholes? WOTC would do well if they were to vett their material by one team that understands the core concepts.

It's available online in a preview. Odds are, they wanted a Divine Wizard but didn't realize that Divine Casting is almost as powerful as Arcane Casting, or that it's class features were actually worth something.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 05:03 PM
It's available online in a preview. Odds are, they wanted a Divine Wizard but didn't realize that Divine Casting is almost as powerful as Arcane Casting, or that it's class features were actually worth something.

Yeah, but the feature of being able to pick up any divine spell is very different than the wizard. Wizards can't pick up arcane spells on other lists. Thus, a wizard isn't picking up Glibness from anywhere for example. It is a bit appalling that they didn't realize that the ability to pick up any divine spell could lead to problems (although I don't think in actual play the size of the problem is nearly as large as the theoretical problem).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-08, 05:04 PM
I'm surprised nobody's linked the excerpt yet (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3). Also, here's the class spell list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells) for anyone who's interested.

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 05:07 PM
I'm surprised nobody's linked the excerpt yet (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3). Also, here's the class spell list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells) for anyone who's interested.

Psst, you missed a post:


You can view archivist legally for free online, it's in an excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3).

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-08, 05:15 PM
Oh, I realize that everything in D&D is at the DM's discretion, but there's a difference between

"This only works with the DM's permission because it is a bit fuzzy on the rules"
and
"This should work fine, assuming the DM doesn't houserule that all barbarians have laser eye beams"
and
"In a stereotypical campaign, you probably won't get much chance to shine here"

I'm referring to the last. I mean, if you took levels in Illithid Slayer, then the statement "This is actually not that great if your DM doesn't use many Illithids" is completely relevant and valid. (Actually it occurs to me that a lot of people take Illithid Slayer for something else; it might grant mind immunity or something?)

I believe it has 9/10 manifesting and full bab along w/ some nifty class features.
(one of those features is indeed total mind immunity.)

Draz74
2010-02-08, 05:17 PM
Yeah, but the feature of being able to pick up any divine spell is very different than the wizard. Wizards can't pick up arcane spells on other lists. Thus, a wizard isn't picking up Glibness from anywhere for example. It is a bit appalling that they didn't realize that the ability to pick up any divine spell could lead to problems (although I don't think in actual play the size of the problem is nearly as large as the theoretical problem).

Nitpick: Eternal Wands nicely give Wizards access to Glibness. :smallamused:

Sophismata
2010-02-08, 05:17 PM
I'm referring to the last. I mean, if you took levels in Illithid Slayer, then the statement "This is actually not that great if your DM doesn't use many Illithids" is completely relevant and valid. (Actually it occurs to me that a lot of people take Illithid Slayer for something else; it might grant mind immunity or something?)

9/10 manifesting, full BAB, immunity to mindaffecting (as the Slayer wishes), immunity to divination (up to and including wish, but only when used to view or reveal location), and some other bonuses (+4 saves vs mind-affecting, etc). The immunities don't work while sleeping, sadly.

shadow_archmagi
2010-02-08, 05:20 PM
I believe it has 9/10 manifesting and full bab along w/ some nifty class features.
(one of those features is indeed total mind immunity.)

Fine. Pretend I said some other prestige class whose benefits from the appearance of something which may or may not be rare in a campaign. Like zombies. Or dolphins.

Dolphin-man, **** yea!

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 05:23 PM
Fine. Pretend I said some other prestige class whose benefits from the appearance of something which may or may not be rare in a campaign. Like zombies. Or dolphins.

Dolphin-man, **** yea!

Or take Entropomancer. The 10th level ability gives them control over Spheres of Annihilation. That's great, assuming there are any in your campaign and you can get access to them. They are after all, minor artifacts. The worst thing? The fluff even talks about this problem explicitly, saying that some Entropomancers spend much of their time searching for a Sphere of Annihilation.

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 05:25 PM
Entropomancer is bad because it's 5/10 casting, not because it has very situational class features.

Simply put, anything is better than straight cleric so long as it advances casting, because Clerics have so few class features. Even advancing turning isn't important, thanks to DMM.

Signmaker
2010-02-08, 05:28 PM
Or take Entropomancer. The 10th level ability gives them control over Spheres of Annihilation.

Too bad another PrC does that at 1st level, but that's irrelevant to the discussion.

But yeah, an archivist can do something as simple as take the Triadspell spell and triplicate every divine spell they want to cast later that's 3rd level or lower. Just for starters. Domain abuse was already mentioned.

Nohwl
2010-02-08, 05:31 PM
what prc does that?

harpy
2010-02-08, 05:33 PM
Also add in the spell list for Adepts, which provides many spells that normally are arcane, but are divine for adepts.

Then add in the dark knowledge class feature which is better than the Bard's party buffing.

I made an gnome archivist and gave him a feat (I forget the name of the feat and which splat book it is out of) which allows gnomes to roll two d20's for knowledge rolls and keep the best one. Let me just say that over the course of the character's career I never failed his dark knowledge checks and with such high knowledge skills bonuses pretty much guaranteed +2 or +3 insight bonuses to the rest of the party for pretty much the duration of the combat.

I'd caste haste, fire off a dark knowledge boost to the whole party and then start casting nasty spells. He was one hell of a character to play. He was really potent, but because he was such an awesome buffer it allowed the rest of the party to also shine.

Signmaker
2010-02-08, 05:35 PM
what prc does that?

One in Forgotten Realms - Lords of Darkness, if I'm not mistaken, probably called "Entropist". The gist is that you worship Entropy.

holywhippet
2010-02-08, 05:36 PM
All of the Big Five (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer and Archivist) are capable of casting ninth-level spells. They are the most powerful classes in the game.

Wizards have no other class features of note, and are still one of the Big Five. Spellcasting is that good.

As pointed out by the black dragon mother, one anti-magic field and a spellcaster becomes a lot less of a threat. A DM would need to be very judicious in their use of AMFs though for that exact reason.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 05:50 PM
As pointed out by the black dragon mother, one anti-magic field and a spellcaster becomes a lot less of a threat. A DM would need to be very judicious in their use of AMFs though for that exact reason.

There are a few spells that explicitly work in AMFs or allow one to cast a low level spell in an AMF. IIRC, there are two in Lords of Madness.

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 05:52 PM
As pointed out by the black dragon mother, one anti-magic field and a spellcaster becomes a lot less of a threat. A DM would need to be very judicious in their use of AMFs though for that exact reason.

That really isn't the silver bullet everyone thinks it is.

Yes, V got beaten by it... but his build is awful.

Signmaker
2010-02-08, 05:55 PM
That really isn't the silver bullet everyone thinks it is.

Yes, V got beaten by it... but his build is awful.

Not to mention forcecage couldn't be stopped that way, though such a dragon could easily have escaped via several other techniques such that really, the cinematic quality of AMF'ing the cage trumps the mechanical impossibility.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-08, 06:03 PM
As pointed out by the black dragon mother, one anti-magic field and a spellcaster becomes a lot less of a threat. A DM would need to be very judicious in their use of AMFs though for that exact reason.

Any Wizard (or Archivist, Artificer, Cleric or Druid) who can't circumvent an antimagic field isn't doing his job properly.

V is a sucky Wizard. He's an evoker who banned conjuration.

JaronK
2010-02-08, 06:08 PM
On the Archivist:

First off, they've got the whole Cleric list straight up. That part's easy. But second of all, in theory an Archivist can learn nearly every spell in existance. It's obvious why the Druid, Domain, Adept, Ranger, Paladin, Shujenja and so on lists are available, and those alone cover a huge range of spells, enough to do any darn thing you want. But also, you get the entire Bard list (Divine Bard variant in UA), the Wizard/Sorcerer list (the Hexer PrC gives divine versions of that entire list, and there are Cleric and Favored Soul variants that give all 6th level and below spells from that list or all spells of a few schools), and a wide variety of others. The only ones you can't have are the Trapsmith list, Greater Harm from the Dread Necromancer list, and a short list of other miscelaneous spells.

But that's just what's theoretically available because they exist at all... the question is how you get them, and that may be campaign dependant. Obviously if they had all of those spells they'd be just better than a Wizard (two fewer metamagic feats, but tons of other abilities). Well, there are a few ways to do it. A Warlock can simply make any divine scroll you like, which makes it easy if you have a Warlock (PC or Cohort) in the party. The research rules let you duplicate any existing spell... it's only DM fiat if you're creating one that's not the same as an existing spell. So that will work if you have enough time to sit down and study (consider building a small tower inside an enveloping pit that you can retire to and study in when not actively doing anything else). And also, the DMG states that when making any magic item, you can have someone else cast the spells. You've got Scribe Scroll anyway, so any other caster in your party (or that you pay off, or otherwise convince) can help you write any spell off their list.

Of course, the question is whether these options will be available. It's possible they're not. That's why the Archivist is not necessarily better or worse than a Wizard... it's dependant on how well they can collect spells. At worst, they're just a Cleric with a more limited selection of spells but more interesting class features (some of which are actually quite good). At best, they can cast every spell they'd ever really want to cast. Where they actually sit will depend on other factors. But allowed to cut loose, they're absolutely incredible.

It's also worth mentioning that combined with the Tainted Sorcerer PrC and the Anima Mage (divine adaptation) PrC they can easily have endless metamagic all day long and incredible save DCs on their spells. Tenebrous Apostate on the end of that is just gravy.

JaronK

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 06:11 PM
Not to mention forcecage couldn't be stopped that way, though such a dragon could easily have escaped via several other techniques such that really, the cinematic quality of AMF'ing the cage trumps the mechanical impossibility.

By RAW, it's not impossible actually - Forcecage isn't on the list of spells that withstand AMF.

RAI, it's similarities to Wall of Force should give it a pass - but RAI is not RAW.

(Might actually be RAMS in this case.)

Doug Lampert
2010-02-08, 06:13 PM
While I am neither stoopid, nor tall, nor a kid, I can oblige. Personally, I think the interpretation is open to debate, but here are the relevant sections of the SRD.

From the SRD:


Also from the SRD:

Try the below from the SRD:

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

How is this debatable. "A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell..."

Otodetu
2010-02-08, 06:26 PM
People make a big deal about the fact that the archivist gets access to every divine spell in the game. However, in practice, getting more than a few domains relies on a seriously helpful DM. Domain scrolls just aren't that common. Sure, you can go ask every cleric you know to consider scribing a scroll for you, but what fraction of clerics have that feat anyways? And yes, they can get Haste as a first level spell. However, that requires a Trapsmith with the Scribe Scroll feat. In practice, the Archivist is not substantially more broken than the cleric. Clearly a T1 class, but most of the real shennanigans are purely theoreotical.

Just has to point out that you don't need to know the spell to scribe it as long as someone else is there to provide the spell.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

So mister archivist just needs to go around and collect magic in scroll form like a collector of stories scribbles down legends.
Edit; this is old news.


As pointed out archivist is very powerful with cheese and munchyness, but in a normal champaign you will find it to be quite balanced.

Draz74
2010-02-08, 06:39 PM
That really isn't the silver bullet everyone thinks it is.
In Core-Only it sure is. Especially if the DM rules AMF the way it sounds like it should work, rather than the way Rules Compendium clarified it to work.


Yes, V got beaten by it... but his build is awful.

It's not good, no, but it's also not exactly unusual. (And especially if it was chosen before the Teleportation school was made part of Conjuration ...)

JaronK
2010-02-08, 06:55 PM
In Core-Only it sure is. Especially if the DM rules AMF the way it sounds like it should work, rather than the way Rules Compendium clarified it to work.

We're talking about Archivists in this thread. Core Only is irrelevant (and in core only, wearing a large bowl with Permanent Shrink Item on it on your head protects you from AMF).

JaronK

Optimystik
2010-02-08, 07:31 PM
In Core-Only it sure is. Especially if the DM rules AMF the way it sounds like it should work, rather than the way Rules Compendium clarified it to work.

It's not good, no, but it's also not exactly unusual. (And especially if it was chosen before the Teleportation school was made part of Conjuration ...)

No, not even in core only.

Contingency is core only. Teleport yourself away if an AMF comes near you.
Or simply block the emanation's LoE with Wall of Stone/Iron so you can teleport out. Then get some backup with Planar Binding/Ally.
By the time you're fighting CR 18 black dragons, you're not far from Gate - also core - and just as unaffected by AMF. Let's see Mama take on a CR 34-36 Outsider.

Note what school all these are? Conjuration. VERY GOOD IDEA not to ban it. (Well, except Contingency, but that spell was always Evo's saving grace.)


We're talking about Archivists in this thread. Core Only is irrelevant (and in core only, wearing a large bowl with Permanent Shrink Item on it on your head protects you from AMF).

JaronK

Ahh, Mordenkainen's Tinfoil Hat. My favored defense.

JaronK
2010-02-08, 07:49 PM
Ahh, Mordenkainen's Tinfoil Hat. My favored defense.

And just so very stylish too. Really explains the pointed Wizard's hat, doesn't it?

JaronK

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-08, 08:08 PM
As pointed out archivist is very powerful with cheese and munchyness, but in a normal champaign you will find it to be quite balanced.
Except... not. Even without cheese, the Archivist is ridiculously powerful in the exact same way as the Wizard is, and a canny player is phenomenally mighty.

Unless the DM is explicitly removing rules and access for the express purpose of screwing the Archivist, which is a matter of the DM setting out to screw a single player.

Otodetu
2010-02-08, 10:05 PM
Except... not. Even without cheese, the Archivist is ridiculously powerful in the exact same way as the Wizard is, and a canny player is phenomenally mighty.

Unless the DM is explicitly removing rules and access for the express purpose of screwing the Archivist, which is a matter of the DM setting out to screw a single player.

It is okay as long as it is not cooler than a wizard, right?

Fishy
2010-02-08, 10:28 PM
So, it's a pretty severe nerf, but what would happen if Archivists could cast Cleric spells, and nothing else? No divine Bard, no 4th level Heal, no stealing things from Paladin or Ranger, no Entangle, and no domains?

Still a full caster, and Dark Knowledge is still awesome, but we avoid a lot of shenanigans.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-08, 10:34 PM
So, it's a pretty severe nerf, but what would happen if Archivists could cast Cleric spells, and nothing else? No divine Bard, no 4th level Heal, no stealing things from Paladin or Ranger, no Entangle, and no domains?

Still a full caster, and Dark Knowledge is still awesome, but we avoid a lot of shenanigans.
I find it more reasonable to go Cleric and Druid, no domains. Alternately, for a more bizarre flavor befitting the class's interest in esoteric lore, domains-only could be interesting.

However, I default to excluding the Big 5 (all six of them) outright unless it's E6, since every fix I would pass for them has already been done, particularly if a splash of flexibility's added to the mix.

Altima
2010-02-08, 10:35 PM
So, it's a pretty severe nerf, but what would happen if Archivists could cast Cleric spells, and nothing else? No divine Bard, no 4th level Heal, no stealing things from Paladin or Ranger, no Entangle, and no domains?

Still a full caster, and Dark Knowledge is still awesome, but we avoid a lot of shenanigans.

At which point they'd simply decide to play druid?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-08, 10:39 PM
So, it's a pretty severe nerf, but what would happen if Archivists could cast Cleric spells, and nothing else? No divine Bard, no 4th level Heal, no stealing things from Paladin or Ranger, no Entangle, and no domains?

Still a full caster, and Dark Knowledge is still awesome, but we avoid a lot of shenanigans.

Yes. But then it might move down. The lack of spontaneous healing and turning then makes the archivist directly inferior to a cleric with Dark Knowledge. You are pretty close to a cleric except having to worry about your spellbook getting lost or destroyed.

Edit: And smaller hit die and weaker BAB but with 2 extra skill points a level (but based on class features able to emphasize intelligence more). Still, cleric seems better then.

Nohwl
2010-02-08, 10:45 PM
So, it's a pretty severe nerf, but what would happen if Archivists could cast Cleric spells, and nothing else? No divine Bard, no 4th level Heal, no stealing things from Paladin or Ranger, no Entangle, and no domains?

Still a full caster, and Dark Knowledge is still awesome, but we avoid a lot of shenanigans.

i would go for a cloistered cleric every time if you limited archivist like that. i would lose dark knowledge, but the ability to prepare completely different spells every day is nice, and i don't have to pay to learn every spell i want. it's not a big issue, but i wouldn't need 2 casting stats either.

faceroll
2010-02-09, 03:47 AM
Random addition: to get a spell off any spell list, the Archivist and the other caster can collaborate on a scroll. If the Archivist has Scribe Scroll, and the other dude casts the spell, they can make a scroll with the spell on it. I would quote the relevant text, but I forget exactly where it is. Sstoopidtallkid would know though.

And archivists just happen to get scribe scroll at first level, as a bonus feat.


Can Archivists spontaneously cast miracle from seventh-level spell slots?

Serious question.

Yes. Yes they can.


Any Wizard (or Archivist, Artificer, Cleric or Druid) who can't circumvent an antimagic field isn't doing his job properly.

Are you suggesting every full caster take that one extremely broken feat from a specific campaign that requires specific fluff? Why stop there with the optimization?


In Core-Only it sure is. Especially if the DM rules AMF the way it sounds like it should work, rather than the way Rules Compendium clarified it to work.

Uh, I'm looking at my pre-RC 3.5 PHB, and AMF still doesn't keep instantaneous conjurations out (like Walls of Iron or Orbs of X).


Except... not. Even without cheese, the Archivist is ridiculously powerful in the exact same way as the Wizard is, and a canny player is phenomenally mighty.

Unless the DM is explicitly removing rules and access for the express purpose of screwing the Archivist, which is a matter of the DM setting out to screw a single player.

Nice dilemma there, though some would call it false....

JaronK
2010-02-09, 04:25 AM
Are you suggesting every full caster take that one extremely broken feat from a specific campaign that requires specific fluff? Why stop there with the optimization?

I doubt that was the case. You can do it with the Shrink Item hat trick as a Wizard, for example, and protect yourself from losing your own casting, or you can cast no SR spells into the AMF from outside if your opponent has one. There are many ways to deal with AMF without any specific feat.


Uh, I'm looking at my pre-RC 3.5 PHB, and AMF still doesn't keep instantaneous conjurations out (like Walls of Iron or Orbs of X).

Exactly.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 06:00 AM
Minor nitpick: Spell lists are that good. And the Archivist has the largest.
Spellcasting with a bad/barely supported list... is not good.

For instance Divine Crusader.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-09, 06:11 AM
As stated, the Archivist can learn any divine spells. That includes Cleric, Druid, Shugenja, Adept, Divine Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, all domains from all sources, and multiple PrCs.

They can learn a lot of spells at a lower level than anyone else. For a simple example, Paladins get first-level spells at level 4. That includes Lesser Restoration, a spell Clerics get as a 2nd-level spell, available at level 3. Archivists can learn the Paladin version at level 1.

Also, through arcane-to-divine shenanigans, like Geomancer and Alternate Source Spell, any spell can be made into a divine scroll, allowing the Archivist to learn any spell. A Warlock generally helps with the scroll access.

You haven't met the rainbow warsnake yet, have you?

Hmm... That was exactly what I was hoping to find in this topic for an archer archivist build I'm working on. Thanks :smallsmile:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 06:17 AM
Also, doesn't Archivist have horrible MAD due to saving throws going off Int while bonus spells go off Wis? Or was that errataed?

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-09, 07:25 AM
Also, doesn't Archivist have horrible MAD due to saving throws going off Int while bonus spells go off Wis? Or was that errataed?

's not really horrible MAD. If you want to focus on defensive spells, Int can be tanked, to an extent.

Yes, it's a bit more work to get things going than a single stat caster, but frankly? The game would be better off if every fullcaster had this issue.

Cyclocone
2010-02-09, 07:34 AM
Also, doesn't Archivist have horrible MAD due to saving throws going off Int while bonus spells go off Wis? Or was that errataed?

Not that big a deal since they have more base slots than a generalist Wizard anyway.

Besides which, pumping Wis ain't exactly hard when you can cast Owl's Insight.

Gnaeus
2010-02-09, 08:07 AM
Unless the DM is explicitly removing rules and access for the express purpose of screwing the Archivist, which is a matter of the DM setting out to screw a single player.

That is really entirely unnecessary.

If they are removing low level class spells to screw an Archivist, they are probably being a jerk.

But, in a world without Artificers, Where 12+ warlocks are rare (so many campaigns) it really makes sense to limit what archivists would get.

Many gods would be very angry at clerics selling their domain spells in the market for the benefit of nonbelievers. Learning a domain spell could require a lot of work convincing the church of that god that you are worthy. Paladins can't even associate with evil people, selling their special spells to non-good casters could get them in trouble as well.

High level casters are often presented as rare also. If there are only a handful of high level clerics in a kingdom, some are evil and in hiding, and the rest are busy, getting 9th level spells at a market would be hard. A 17+ druid might be willing to scribe that scroll for you, but first you have to find him, and he probably doesn't live in town. Adepts are most common among savage humanoids, divine bards may not even exist, or may be very rare, and like a cleric may require you to be on good terms with the god of music before giving you his gifts.

Remember that scrolls (unlike most magic items) go away after use, so they aren't going to be passed down from hand to hand a lot. Unlike wizards, Divine casters most likely don't have Scribe Scroll, so while they can cooperate with the archivist to make them, they probably don't have a huge stockpile laying around.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it is very reasonable to make Archivists jump through hoops to get that rare spell that only the high priest of Lolth or Doresain can scribe.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 08:15 AM
I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it is very reasonable to make Archivists jump through hoops to get that rare spell that only the high priest of Lolth or Doresain can scribe.

The trouble is that they can get extremely powerful even without rare spells like that.

Even merely combining Cleric and Druid base lists is win.


's not really horrible MAD. If you want to focus on defensive spells, Int can be tanked, to an extent.

Better to tank Wis, actually - even without bonus slots, they have the spells/day of a specialist wizard. So get to 19-20 Wis and stop, put everything else into Int. (19 for 9ths, 20 for the modifier.) Dark Knowledge also functions off Int, though the check isn't hard to make anyway.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-09, 08:58 AM
How does the Miracle in a 7th level slot trick work?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 09:06 AM
How does the Miracle in a 7th level slot trick work?

Presumably some sort of Planar Binding cheese.

EDIT: Or Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix cheese.

Cyclocone
2010-02-09, 09:11 AM
Presumably some sort of Planar Binding cheese.

Sounds more like Shadowcraft shenanigans; Silent Image appears on both the Illusion and Gnome domains.

EDIT: Celerity Ninja'ed! How uncouth!:smallbiggrin:

Gnaeus
2010-02-09, 09:14 AM
The trouble is that they can get extremely powerful even without rare spells like that.

Even merely combining Cleric and Druid base lists is win.


Well, they are tier 1 casters. They don't suck. But that doesn't mean that they necessarily have every wizard spell in their spellbook just because there is one cleric of some obscure god who can cast it as a domain spell.

And just as a nitpick, no normal Archivist can come close to the Cleric/Druid base lists. What they are more likely to get is the best 6-15 spells per level from the cleric and druid lists (with a couple of outliers). It is an open question as to whether the best 15 spells from 2 lists beats the couple hundred spells on either list for having the spell most useful on any given day.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 09:17 AM
Well, they are tier 1 casters. They don't suck. But that doesn't mean that they necessarily have every wizard spell in their spellbook just because there is one cleric of some obscure god who can cast it as a domain spell.

And just as a nitpick, no normal Archivist can come close to the Cleric/Druid base lists. What they are more likely to get is the best 6-15 spells per level from the cleric and druid lists (with a couple of outliers). It is an open question as to whether the best 15 spells from 2 lists beats the couple hundred spells on either list for having the spell most useful on any given day.

Well, they might have multiple prayerbooks or something like that.

And due to the item creation rules, they CAN get all wizard spells by cooperating with a wizard on making a scroll.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-09, 09:21 AM
Nice dilemma there, though some would call it false....
Except it's the very reason many deny the power of things like Archivist in the first place. They call them subject to DM whim in acquiring when the rules quite explicitly default to full market access in a big way. Without full market access, it amounts to a houserule aimed at actively screwing the Wizard/Archivist/Wu Jen.

Many gods would be very angry at clerics selling their domain spells in the market for the benefit of nonbelievers. Learning a domain spell could require a lot of work convincing the church of that god that you are worthy. Paladins can't even associate with evil people, selling their special spells to non-good casters could get them in trouble as well.

High level casters are often presented as rare also. If there are only a handful of high level clerics in a kingdom, some are evil and in hiding, and the rest are busy, getting 9th level spells at a market would be hard. A 17+ druid might be willing to scribe that scroll for you, but first you have to find him, and he probably doesn't live in town. Adepts are most common among savage humanoids, divine bards may not even exist, or may be very rare, and like a cleric may require you to be on good terms with the god of music before giving you his gifts.
To wit, behold the DM explicitly removing rules and access for the express purpose of screwing the Archivist.

By the rules, rarity is determined by cost. If you're in a big enough city (or perhaps several), you can find pretty much whatever you're looking for so long as it's below Value X.

The logic you're giving applies every bit as much to magic swords, by the way. CL21 craftsfolk making +7 swords are pretty darn rare, too, after all, and a +7 sword isn't very good. It's also a much larger investment of time and resources than a cheap scroll.

If you apply this denial of market access even-handedly, the muggles are screwed worse. If you don't, then you're explicitly screwing one player. And if you have to deny the Archivist use of fairly-earned money just to keep her from exploding as a matter of course, then the class itself is tremendously powerful.

Gnaeus
2010-02-09, 09:34 AM
Well, they might have multiple prayerbooks or something like that.

Sure, but they then have to spend the time and money to get all those spells scribed. There is clearly a diminishing return on your time and money. In play, I very rarely see a wizard with as many as 20 spells per level in his spellbook. Of course they can, but after a certain point they are probably better off spending their time crafting and just keep the scroll of the spell that they will probably only memorize once.


And due to the item creation rules, they CAN get all wizard spells by cooperating with a wizard on making a scroll.

That is clearly RAI not raw. Yes, an archivist can cooperate with a sorcerer to make a scroll, the archivist can be the creator, and spend the xp. DMG 243 states, however, that a spell is either arcane or divine depending on the class of the caster. Show me a cite that says that an arcane caster + a divine caster with scribe scroll can make a divine version of an arcane spell. I don't think that would fly in most games.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 09:36 AM
They can get a ton of arcane spells through domains, the druid list, Adept, and Divine Bard. Other options are slightly cheesier.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-09, 09:41 AM
How does the Miracle in a 7th level slot trick work?

Shadowcraft Mage + Arcane Disciple (Luck) + Earth Spell + Incantatrix should do it.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 09:50 AM
Shadowcraft Mage + Arcane Disciple (Luck) + Earth Spell + Incantatrix should do it.

Actually, it doesn't. It only puts it in an 8th level slot. You can do it with Easy Metamagic (Heighten), I suppose.

Residual Magic can do it out of a 0th level slot if you just cast one properly.

Gnaeus
2010-02-09, 10:11 AM
Except it's the very reason many deny the power of things like Archivist in the first place. They call them subject to DM whim in acquiring when the rules quite explicitly default to full market access in a big way. Without full market access, it amounts to a houserule aimed at actively screwing the Wizard/Archivist/Wu Jen.

To wit, behold the DM explicitly removing rules and access for the express purpose of screwing the Archivist.

By the rules, rarity is determined by cost. If you're in a big enough city (or perhaps several), you can find pretty much whatever you're looking for so long as it's below Value X.

Rule that supports you: DMG 137 "anything having a price under that limit is MOST LIKELY available".

Rules that don't support you: DMG 139 relating to presence of high level casters
PHB 132 "even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th level spells"

So for you, most likely means automatically by RAW, and available means that you can just walk in and buy your scroll of implosion off a rack without anyone asking who you are or why you want it.

And the DM who thinks that "most likely" means it is there if such an item would be reasonable to be in that community, and that "available" means that there is someone who has or can make one, but isn't necessarily going to hand out magical nuclear weapons to anyone who walks into their temple is not only unreasonable, but is "explicitly removing rules and access for the express purpose of screwing the Archivist". Congratulations Viletta, this argument has risen to your usual high standards.


The logic you're giving applies every bit as much to magic swords, by the way. CL21 craftsfolk making +7 swords are pretty darn rare, too, after all, and a +7 sword isn't very good. It's also a much larger investment of time and resources than a cheap scroll.

But it lasts FOREVER. If Tim the enchanter makes a +7 sword for his friend, barring unlikely sundering it will still be floating around 1000 years later. A scroll is useless after it is used once (and barring houserules, it will probably be gone in a couple hundred years due to paper decay if not well preserved).


If you apply this denial of market access even-handedly, the muggles are screwed worse. If you don't, then you're explicitly screwing one player. And if you have to deny the Archivist use of fairly-earned money just to keep her from exploding as a matter of course, then the class itself is tremendously powerful.

That's just foolish. Even in a metropolis the DM is well within his rights and the rules to say something like "O.K. Common magic items you can just buy without RP. Let me look over what you are buying and if I think it isn't easily found on the street we can talk about where or how you are going to get it. Mr. Archivist, for you this means you can buy scrolls from PHB classes but not domains of up to spell level 4 or 5, anything beyond that talk to me". Frankly, I think a lot of players would tell you that is pretty generous, and that their DMs won't go that far. My DM won't.

AstralFire
2010-02-09, 10:20 AM
On the warmage tangent, there are more PrCs than Rainbow Servant which expand your spell list; all of them are a huge boost to the class. And it itself is not bad, just not nearly as good as its cousins.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 10:21 AM
Rule that support you: DMG 137 "anything having a price under that limit is MOST LIKELY available".

Rules that don't support you: DMG 139 relating to presence of high level casters
PHB 132 "even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th level spells"

So for you, most likely means automatically by RAW, and available means that you can just walk in and buy your scroll of implosion off a rack without anyone asking who you are or why you want it.

Obvious strawman is obvious. Who said anything about buying 9th level spells off the street corner? For that matter, how many games get to 9th level spells anyway?

Archivist is quite strong enough without needing Gate AND Elemental Swarm. The issue arises when you start barring them from getting spells like Stoneskin and Plane Shift that should be much more easily available.


But it lasts FOREVER. If Tim the enchanter makes a +7 sword for his friend, barring unlikely sundering it will still be floating around 1000 years later. A scroll is useless after it is used once (and barring houserules, it will probably be gone in a couple hundred years due to paper decay if not well preserved).

Is there a deity of magic or knowledge in your setting? The Big 3 all have one. It is the business of their clerics to make scrolls for sale - yes, even divine ones.


That's just foolish. Even in a metropolis the DM is well within his rights and the rules to say something like "O.K. Common magic items you can just buy without RP. Let me look over what you are buying and if I think it isn't easily found on the street we can talk about where or how you are going to get it."

I'm afraid you have to define what isn't "common." No druid spells? No bard spells? No domain spells? Because several of those are both useful and should be common in any city with a magic shop. Certainly more common than a +5 or more sword would be.

Gnaeus
2010-02-09, 10:35 AM
Obvious strawman is obvious. Who said anything about buying 9th level spells off the street corner? For that matter, how many games get to 9th level spells anyway?

Archivist is quite strong enough without needing Gate AND Elemental Swarm. The issue arises when you start barring them from getting spells like Stoneskin and Plane Shift that should be much more easily available.

I wouldn't have a problem allowing an archivist to have those under normal circumstances. It is all very setting dependent though.


Is there a deity of magic or knowledge in your setting? The Big 3 all have one. It is the business of their clerics to make scrolls for sale - yes, even divine ones.

Cool. DMG says a metropolis has 4 clerics of level 12+1d6. What if the local high priest of the Knowledge god isn't one of those 4, and is only level 10. He's not going to be making any scrolls over level 5, or selling any that he can't get from his bosses. If the local knowledge priest is level 17, then it is perfectly reasonable for him to be able to sell any base cleric scroll, and the DM, who knows this, should tell you so. If you are in less than a metropolis, availability is probably lower.


I'm afraid you have to define what isn't "common." No druid spells? No bard spells? No domain spells? Because several of those are both useful and should be common in any city with a magic shop. Certainly more common than a +5 or more sword would be.

No, the DM has to define what isn't common. If it were me, I would allow low-mid level druid spells, divine bard spells if there were a large temple to a god of music in the city of max level dependent on the highest level bard, and domain spells from the domains of the large, public churches, unless those churches didn't feel like selling them. Domain spells from evil temples might be there on the black market, but it could take a side-quest to find it and earn their trust. I wouldn't tell the players this outright, though, they would have to discover it in game. I WOULD warn the archivist on character creation that dumpster diving for obscure spells would require a lot of in game legwork.

My DM would say "there is a chance you could find that, let me roll one scroll at a time". Edit: although that is for base list spells out of the spell compendium or splatbooks. If I wanted a spell that was only common among the drow, or otherwise not easy to find in play, I suspect he would just quietly lower the chance of finding it.

Ask a dozen DMs, I bet you could get a dozen answers, ranging from "no magic shops" to "anything goes". It could matter what the political climate was. Some items might be purchasable, but require a permit, or have to be ordered from the high temple of that god of knowledge, and take time to come in. Maybe you could get these items faster, but have to pay a premium for the cost of teleporting them across the world.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-09, 01:30 PM
Rule that supports you: DMG 137 "anything having a price under that limit is MOST LIKELY available".

Rules that don't support you: DMG 139 relating to presence of high level casters
PHB 132 "even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th level spells"
Except you don't need 17th-level casters to be in-town to have 9th-level spells available on the market. You just need them in-world. They don't grow coconuts in Jersey, but you can certainly buy 'em there. Not all sales are domestic products, after all.

And do note that "available for sale" means "available for sale." Nothing more, nothing less.

So for you, most likely means automatically by RAW, and available means that you can just walk in and buy your scroll of implosion off a rack without anyone asking who you are or why you want it.
No, for me, most likely means "most likely," and applies unilaterally, so while not every major city will have every spell, every sufficiently large city will MOST LIKELY have the spell the Archivist is looking for.

A DM who explicitly makes the items that one character wants to spend her honestly-earned money on arbitrarily much rarer on the market and much harder to find, requiring many additional hoops to jump through is singling out one player for piles of added inconvenience that ultimately does nothing to balance the game, as it only serves to add in a bunch of arbitrary side-quests that don't advance the story any.

And the DM who thinks that "most likely" means it is there if such an item would be reasonable to be in that community, and that "available" means that there is someone who has or can make one, but isn't necessarily going to hand out magical nuclear weapons to anyone who walks into their temple is not only unreasonable, but is "explicitly removing rules and access for the express purpose of screwing the Archivist". Congratulations Viletta, this argument has risen to your usual high standards.
"Most likely," means, by definition, "The most probable outcome." And since availability is binary, that means there is a greater than 50% chance that whatever scroll the Archivist wants to buy is available.

And a DM who explicitly designs the world such that the basic items that one character needs in order to function are far rarer than the basic needs of all others is, again, setting out to explicitly screw one player over all the rest.

But it lasts FOREVER. If Tim the enchanter makes a +7 sword for his friend, barring unlikely sundering it will still be floating around 1000 years later. A scroll is useless after it is used once (and barring houserules, it will probably be gone in a couple hundred years due to paper decay if not well preserved).
And a spellbook lasts forever, except that can be copied by a level 1 mage, it's a ton cheaper, and learning from a spellbook is far cheaper than learning from scrolls anyways. So, by your logic, there should be tons and tons of low-cost spellbooks floating around instead allowing the Archivist to learn her spells at a reduced price. In fact, temples of knowledge gods would quite likely collect obscure spells for reference. And since knowledge gods tend to be neutral, they don't have any pesky alignment restrictions limiting their selection. Fantastic.

And the +7 sword is still a massive investment that can only be made by epic and nigh-epic casters, while scrolls are still a minute investment that can be produced in very large numbers when compared to the +7 sword.

That's just foolish. Even in a metropolis the DM is well within his rights and the rules to say something like "O.K. Common magic items you can just buy without RP. Let me look over what you are buying and if I think it isn't easily found on the street we can talk about where or how you are going to get it. Mr. Archivist, for you this means you can buy scrolls from PHB classes but not domains of up to spell level 4 or 5, anything beyond that talk to me". Frankly, I think a lot of players would tell you that is pretty generous, and that their DMs won't go that far. My DM won't.
Except it's a tremendously unfair ruling to say that the 72,000g sword is common while the 2,000g scroll is rare. Arbitrary 'rare' decrees, declaring that one person has to jump through piles of hoops just to get basic supplies? That's fundamentally unfair.

If you're going to houserule and single out one player for arbitrary persecution, admit it.

And that you can't treat the Archivist fairly and have a balanced game is indisputable proof that it's a ridiculously powerful class. When a DM is forced to create a world that actively and specifically conspires to inconvenience one class above all others, there's something fishy about that one class.


And in the end, it utterly fails to serve as a balancer. So it takes more legwork to get spells? The Archivist still gets 'em. In the end, what's the difference other than more hoops jumped?

Ask a dozen DMs, I bet you could get a dozen answers, ranging from "no magic shops" to "anything goes". It could matter what the political climate was. Some items might be purchasable, but require a permit, or have to be ordered from the high temple of that god of knowledge, and take time to come in. Maybe you could get these items faster, but have to pay a premium for the cost of teleporting them across the world.
That doesn't mean there aren't rules.

The rules on the matter are that there are magic shops, and if the town is large enough, there is a greater than 50% chance that they will have the item you're looking for so long as it's below a certain price. That some people use houserules is secondary to this, but those people should admit up front that they are using houserules.

faceroll
2010-02-09, 01:51 PM
I doubt that was the case. You can do it with the Shrink Item hat trick as a Wizard, for example, and protect yourself from losing your own casting, or you can cast no SR spells into the AMF from outside if your opponent has one. There are many ways to deal with AMF without any specific feat.

Not just any no-SR spell; it must be a no-SR instantaneous conjuration. And the real problem is casting within an AMF. The hat trick only works if the enemy can't punch through it, which, I'm guessing if you're at that level of cheese, you have one Celerity to gtfo.


How does the Miracle in a 7th level slot trick work?

Shadowcraft Mage or Uncanny Forethought.


Except it's the very reason many deny the power of things like Archivist in the first place. They call them subject to DM whim in acquiring when the rules quite explicitly default to full market access in a big way. Without full market access, it amounts to a houserule aimed at actively screwing the Wizard/Archivist/Wu Jen.

Full market access and infinite downtime are both theoretical constructs. When discussing how things go down in actual play; one should be aware of some very common constraints on playing the archivist whose power relies largely on DM fiat.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-09, 01:59 PM
Full market access and infinite downtime are both theoretical constructs. When discussing how things go down in actual play; one should be aware of some very common constraints on playing the archivist whose power relies largely on DM fiat.
Infinite downtime is a theoretical construct. Full market access, however, is a part of the rules, particularly when you have the power to teleport throughout the world and across planes. Removing full market access is a houserule.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 02:15 PM
I'm fine with restricting Archivist access to certain spells (particularly 9th level ones) but going over the lists of every divine class with a fine-toothed comb to say "there are only scrolls of this, this and that available) is excessive.

Ban the handful that wouldn't be reasonable, and leave the majority available to be purchased - not the other way around.

clockworkmonk
2010-02-09, 02:45 PM
I did think of one quick fix to many of the problems. simply, if a spell exists on multiple lists, the Archivist can learn the spell as the highest listed spell level. This would prevent a good deal of the cheese dealing with paladins, rangers and the sort, while still being quite powerfl.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-09, 02:47 PM
People are looking too hard at domains. The real power for the Archivist is stuff like Ranger spells+Polymorph for the best archer in the game, or Adept spells for divine Lightning Bolt and Web. Things like Darkbolt are awesome, but unnecessary for most Archivists.

Also, while the Artificer can't craft divine scrolls, the Warlock can, and can do so of any arcane spell.

JaronK
2010-02-09, 03:22 PM
Not just any no-SR spell; it must be a no-SR instantaneous conjuration. And the real problem is casting within an AMF. The hat trick only works if the enemy can't punch through it, which, I'm guessing if you're at that level of cheese, you have one Celerity to gtfo.

That was a reference to core only defenses against Antimagic. I'm pretty sure Celerity wouldn't be in play. Nor is wearing a Shrink Item'd hat cheese... it's just a creative solution. Not everything creative is cheesy. Meanwhile, making your hat out of Adamantium isn't hard, and should stop virtually any core enemy from punching through it right away. Meanwhile, last time I checked Dimensional Door was core, and I like to have that spell anyway as a defense against grappling and such. So you teleport out of the way, then counterattack.

One thing about markets is that while I can see a high level Fighter being unable to buy the perfect sword in town, that's less of an issue for a high level Archivist, who can just as easily teleport to another metropolis and check there. Is it really the case that every friendly major metropolis lacks a scroll of Planar Binding, and that every temple to Boccob (or whatever magic deity you have) lacks a prayer book with a divine copy of Glitterdust in it? That stretches the imagination a bit. Frankly, since all Archivists (at least according to the fluff) like searching out rare spells, I'd expect the temples to your magic deity to regularly have Archivists in them ready to trade whatever spells they'd found for new ones with other Archivists (probably with a requirement from the temple that all traded spells must also have a copy made for the temple itself).

JaronK

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 03:48 PM
Not just any no-SR spell; it must be a no-SR instantaneous conjuration. And the real problem is casting within an AMF. The hat trick only works if the enemy can't punch through it, which, I'm guessing if you're at that level of cheese, you have one Celerity to gtfo.

Or, you know, the hat will keep your Contingency active (assuming your DM doesn't want it triggering if an AMF would overlap you as I usually have it), thus causing you to wink out on your own without an action.

1) Set the Contingency to something else - say, "if the spell on my hat would be suppressed, teleport," or "if I say 'Zoinks!' teleport." (Speaking is a FA.)
2) AMF dragon/monk/whatever enters your square.
3) All the magic on your person is suppressed - including your hat, which regrows instantly to full size.
4) The hat covers you, breaking LoE. Your other items and magic function again (except your hat, which is still nonmagical and therefore covering you.)
5) Your Contingency triggers (speak if necessary), teleporting you out from under the hat.

Note that all of this happens before your attacker can even swing. The dragon/monk/whatever attacks your hat, finding nothing underneath. Safe in your sanctum, you shrink another tent into a hat, put it on, recast Contingency and head out the door, amused.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-09, 03:55 PM
Anything with a price under a community's gp limit is likely available, but what's "the price" of a scroll of holy smite? It doesn't even appear on the DMG's list of scrolls. It doesn't, to my knowledge, have an official price.

Can we reasonably assume that every scroll of a spell without an XP cost that any caster can create is available at a price of its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp + the price of its costly material components? Well, no, we jolly well can't. Because if, say, people could buy caster level 7 divine scrolls of divination for 550 gp, then why would anyone pay 725 gp for the same thing? No, the dude who can scribe those for a lower cost is still gonna charge just as much for them so as to increase his profit margin, and he's not going to openly sell a lower-level version of the spell. He's going to charge an archivist a bunch more than the market price for a scroll for a lower-level version of the spell, because he knows that the archivist values being able to cast divination as a level 3 spell over being able to cast it as a level 4 spell. That's why the archivist is coming to him for a lower-level version of the spell in the first place.

Edit: And that's assuming that a scroll even has a spell level, and that this determines what level a learned spell is for the archivist. Does it actually say that anywhere? Rules for adding spells to your spell list seem to just not address the fact that a given spell can have multiple levels associated with different classes. Is this clarified somewhere?

faceroll
2010-02-09, 04:01 PM
That was a reference to core only defenses against Antimagic. I'm pretty sure Celerity wouldn't be in play. Nor is wearing a Shrink Item'd hat cheese... it's just a creative solution. Not everything creative is cheesy. Meanwhile, making your hat out of Adamantium isn't hard, and should stop virtually any core enemy from punching through it right away. Meanwhile, last time I checked Dimensional Door was core, and I like to have that spell anyway as a defense against grappling and such. So you teleport out of the way, then counterattack.

An adamantium hat would be exorbitantly expensive. You also can't act on others' turns; thus Celerity. A CR 22-24 wyrm with an AMF full out power attacks and bites the adamantine hat. He does a minimum of 59.5 damage- unless he rolls all ones on his bite attack, the hat breaks. If he has something like improved natural attack, then the hat breaks for sure.

If the wizard does get to teleport out, he has to leave the hat behind. I doubt the wizard could carry 1,000lbs of adamantine. This is quite risky, seeing as virtually all your character wealth is spent on a massive cone of adamantine.

The point of DMing a challenging encounter isn't to kill the PCs, either. So the wizard teleports out without his big shiny hat, then has to teleport back. He's lost a couple rounds, and, at this level play, is probably something like 4 spells. I would say that was a pretty good DM move. I don't know why the gold standard of a good encounter is a TPK.


Or, you know, the hat will keep your Contingency active (assuming your DM doesn't want it triggering if an AMF would overlap you as I usually have it), thus causing you to wink out on your own without an action.

1) Set the Contingency to something else - say, "if the spell on my hat would be suppressed, teleport," or "if I say 'Zoinks!' teleport." (Speaking is a FA.)
2) AMF dragon/monk/whatever enters your square.
3) All the magic on your person is suppressed - including your hat, which regrows instantly to full size.
4) The hat covers you, breaking LoE. Your other items and magic function again (except your hat, which is still nonmagical and therefore covering you.)
5) Your Contingency triggers (speak if necessary), teleporting you out from under the hat.

Note that all of this happens before your attacker can even swing. The dragon/monk/whatever attacks your hat, finding nothing underneath. Safe in your sanctum, you shrink another tent into a hat, put it on, recast Contingency and head out the door, amused.

Cool, the wizard lost the combat. I'm fine with that. If you're using teleport, good luck on finding your way back to your party in a timely manner!


One thing about markets is that while I can see a high level Fighter being unable to buy the perfect sword in town, that's less of an issue for a high level Archivist, who can just as easily teleport to another metropolis and check there.

As long as there's someone in the party that can cast teleport, sure. With regards to the fighter, he gets sweet swords because he's a fighter. Go go metagame.


Is it really the case that every friendly major metropolis lacks a scroll of Planar Binding, and that every temple to Boccob (or whatever magic deity you have) lacks a prayer book with a divine copy of Glitterdust in it? That stretches the imagination a bit.

It really depends on the setting and how willing the clergy are willing to trade, and what level of play you're at. Eventually you find a cleric willing to trade glitterdust with you. You're level 13. Neato! A second level spell! That's different than having your 3rd level archivist casting glitterdust, don't you think?

The problem is suffering through levels 1-10 as a weak cleric who occasionally gets nifty spells entirely at the DMs whim (or by whatever scrolls you can afford). Once you hit higher levels, you've got all sorts of T1 abilities at your disposal to totally derail the DMs campaign and upend it looking for that super special scroll of win. And I think people who ask "why is archivist so powerful" should be aware that, unlike a druid, an archivist's power rests in theory and high level game play, as it's an extremely NPC/item dependent class.

By the way, once you hit 17th level, just cast miracle to mimic a psychic reformation, and gain 34 new spells. Wizards get access to this at 15th level with limited wish.


Frankly, since all Archivists (at least according to the fluff) like searching out rare spells, I'd expect the temples to your magic deity to regularly have Archivists in them ready to trade whatever spells they'd found for new ones with other Archivists (probably with a requirement from the temple that all traded spells must also have a copy made for the temple itself).

That still doesn't change the fact that you've got about 100 spells from other lists you want, and the DM arbitrarily lets you get 10 he picks.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this with you. I don't think I've ever played in a game where the DM said "you have unlimited access to everything, go wild." As far as theory goes, yeah, archivists are really, really powerful, but there are plenty of things that are very powerful. Just don't expect to get away with all of them. The archivist deserves special mention in as a theoretically powerful class, because it is particularly easy for a DM to nerf due to their NPC dependency. The archivist is virtually dependent on DM handouts.


Infinite downtime is a theoretical construct. Full market access, however, is a part of the rules, particularly when you have the power to teleport throughout the world and across planes. Removing full market access is a houserule.

There are a lot of things that are "part of the rules". That still doesn't mean your DM is going to let you get away with them. How often do you drown your characters to 0 hit points? Have you ever broke the economy by buying mithral chain shirts for huge characters, smelting them down, and selling ingots for massive profits?

Gnaeus
2010-02-09, 04:23 PM
And do note that "available for sale" means "available for sale." Nothing more, nothing less.

Guns and explosives are available for sale in virtually the entire U.S. You still may have to have a permit, a background check, a clean criminal record and go through a waiting period depending on local laws. It doesn't say anything about all of those. Medical drugs are available for sale at my pharmacy, but the ones perceived as subject to abuse require a prescription from a doctor. An appliance may be available for sale at a store, but when you investigate that may not mean that they have it in stock at that location for you to take home that day. They might have to ship it. Requiring similar things for scrolls does not make them unavailable for sale.


No, for me, most likely means "most likely," and applies unilaterally, so while not every major city will have every spell, every sufficiently large city will MOST LIKELY have the spell the Archivist is looking for.

"Most likely," means, by definition, "The most probable outcome." And since availability is binary, that means there is a greater than 50% chance that whatever scroll the Archivist wants to buy is available.

But the DMG doesn't say role a d% when you want to go shopping. It is entirely up to him to determine what most likely means. If he determines that most likely means that the majority of possible items are there, but that some items which he deems unreasonable aren't, he hasn't broken any rules.


A DM who explicitly makes the items that one character wants to spend her honestly-earned money on arbitrarily much rarer on the market and much harder to find, requiring many additional hoops to jump through is singling out one player for piles of added inconvenience that ultimately does nothing to balance the game, as it only serves to add in a bunch of arbitrary side-quests that don't advance the story any.

Didn't say ANYTHING about balance, did I? Balancing the game may not be his goal. If it is, he may easily decide that restricting certain items improves the balance in his game, a thing about which he is likely to know more than us.

*Shrugs* I think having to find the black market under metropolis where the evil spells are sold could be kind of exciting. Using items as a plot hook to go on a quest for a local temple could help to motivate the party into action. Whether or not something advances the story depends on the story the DM is trying to tell.


And a DM who explicitly designs the world such that the basic items that one character needs in order to function are far rarer than the basic needs of all others is, again, setting out to explicitly screw one player over all the rest.

If you're going to houserule and single out one player for arbitrary persecution, admit it.

A DM who runs his world in a fashion he believes to be believable sounds like a good thing to me. It certainly doesn't mean that he is setting out to screw a player. And again, no houserules are required here. A DM can go a very long way and still be very well within that one sentence in the DMG. To give another example, if I say "there are no divine bards in my world" I didn't just do it to kick the archivist in the pants. That may be a side effect, but not the goal.


And a spellbook lasts forever, except that can be copied by a level 1 mage, it's a ton cheaper, and learning from a spellbook is far cheaper than learning from scrolls anyways. So, by your logic, there should be tons and tons of low-cost spellbooks floating around instead allowing the Archivist to learn her spells at a reduced price. In fact, temples of knowledge gods would quite likely collect obscure spells for reference. And since knowledge gods tend to be neutral, they don't have any pesky alignment restrictions limiting their selection. Fantastic.

Maybe, its a much better argument than the rest of them for sure. There are still a lot of campaign type-questions that would need to be answered before it happens.

Stuff like: How common are high level archivists? If they are very rare, their spellbooks would also be rare. Copying them is expensive.

Are rare texts freely available for anyone to see? They might be preserved for knowledge, but that doesn't mean they are displayed openly. You might have to convince a librarian, perhaps another Archivist, that you deserve to see it. Even a temple of a Knowledge god, like a modern university, would not be out of line asking what you plan to use it for.

Does the local government regulate sales? If yes, the temple is unlikely to violate their laws, at least openly.


And the +7 sword is still a massive investment that can only be made by epic and nigh-epic casters, while scrolls are still a minute investment that can be produced in very large numbers when compared to the +7 sword.

Except it's a tremendously unfair ruling to say that the 72,000g sword is common while the 2,000g scroll is rare.

I didn't say you could just walk into a shop and buy a +7 sword either. Especially if the +7 sword in question is to have a specific set of traits (A + 3 bane vorpal defending greatsword or whatever), available might mean that theres a guy who can make it. You still might have to go to the swordcrafter, "Kill Bill" style, convince him to do it, wait for him to make it, etc. This does not rise to the level of persecuting the fighter.


Arbitrary 'rare' decrees, declaring that one person has to jump through piles of hoops just to get basic supplies? That's fundamentally unfair.

Nothing I have described has been arbitrary. It has all been campaign driven.

And rare scrolls of high level or unusual access spells is hardly "Basic supplies". If the Archivist wants a scroll of bless or barkskin he probably won't have too much trouble getting it. (unless there is a larger campaign reason why he can't, like a feud between that kingdom and the druids...)


And that you can't treat the Archivist fairly and have a balanced game is indisputable proof that it's a ridiculously powerful class. When a DM is forced to create a world that actively and specifically conspires to inconvenience one class above all others, there's something fishy about that one class.

Not one single thing I have talked about has been for the express purpose of nerfing the Archivist. Every limitation I have described is reasonable for in game reasons that have nothing to do with hurting Archivists.



And in the end, it utterly fails to serve as a balancer. So it takes more legwork to get spells? The Archivist still gets 'em. In the end, what's the difference other than more hoops jumped?

Frequency. An archivist may be able to get any rare spell he wants badly enough, but unable to get all the rare spells he wants.


The rules on the matter are that there are magic shops, and if the town is large enough, there is a greater than 50% chance that they will have the item you're looking for so long as it's below a certain price. That some people use houserules is secondary to this, but those people should admit up front that they are using houserules.

The rules never say that there are magic shops. It only says"most likely available". Everything else is just your personal construction of that phrase. No houserules were used in this discussion.

Edit: the DMG (p241) also states that cleric and druid spells are "considered the default because paladins and rangers typically don't involve themselves in making scrolls". So I guess if you let your archivist have Ranger or Paladin spells you have to admit up front that you are using houserules? I mean, that seems a lot clearer and more specific than the sentence about availability in the section on communities.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 04:37 PM
Cool, the wizard lost the combat. I'm fine with that. If you're using teleport, good luck on finding your way back to your party in a timely manner!

Funny, if an Antimagic radiating dragon came out of nowhere to kill me, I'd consider an escape to be a victory (or at the very least, not a loss) myself.

As for finding my way back timely... Um, teleport?

faceroll
2010-02-09, 04:44 PM
Funny, if an Antimagic radiating dragon came out of nowhere to kill me, I'd consider an escape to be a victory (or at the very least, not a loss) myself.

The dragon just took out 1/4 the party with a move action. I'd say that's pretty good.


As for finding my way back timely... Um, teleport?

Of the greater variety is what you want. You might miss your target, otherwise. Unless the dragon's in your house. That would suck. He'd make a big mess.

JaronK
2010-02-09, 04:45 PM
An adamantium hat would be exorbitantly expensive. You also can't act on others' turns; thus Celerity.

Why, did contingency stop existing when I wasn't looking? Also, the hat isn't horribly expensive at high levels.


A CR 22-24 wyrm with an AMF full out power attacks and bites the adamantine hat. He does a minimum of 59.5 damage- unless he rolls all ones on his bite attack, the hat breaks. If he has something like improved natural attack, then the hat breaks for sure.

Piercing damage is ignored against objects, so his bite is useless. Slashing damage is halved, by the way. Check out the object rules for more information. So yeah, the hat stops him cold. Also, he can't full attack on the round he gets in there.


If the wizard does get to teleport out, he has to leave the hat behind. I doubt the wizard could carry 1,000lbs of adamantine. This is quite risky, seeing as virtually all your character wealth is spent on a massive cone of adamantine.

No, he teleports out of the hat, kills the dragon (or whatever, AMF doesn't last forever, and he can always gate/planar bind/whatever in something to deal with it), and takes his hat back. I don't see why it's 1000lbs of Adamantine, though. It has to be just big enough to cover the Wizard, no larger. And remember, some Wizards are small. My last Wizard was a gnome, and my last caster was (well, is, I'm still playing him) a Kobold.

As for carrying the hat, well, as soon as the dragon/monk/whatever is dead, the surpressed Permanent Shrink Item spell comes back. Now he puts it back on his head and leaves. Even if somehow that gets dispelled, did Tenser's Floating Disk suddenly leave core when I wasn't looking? The hat still isn't as heavy as you seem to think.

And by the way, from Stronghold Builder's Guide we have the price of a 10'X20'X3" wall of adamantine... 30kgp. The raw materials for that cost 70% of that, just over 20kgp. And that's significantly more adamantine than necessary for this hat. It's not that expensive.


The point of DMing a challenging encounter isn't to kill the PCs, either. So the wizard teleports out without his big shiny hat, then has to teleport back. He's lost a couple rounds, and, at this level play, is probably something like 4 spells. I would say that was a pretty good DM move. I don't know why the gold standard of a good encounter is a TPK.

He doesn't need to retreat completely. He just has to fall back and take out the dragon. Sure, hitting him with an AMF is an annoyance... but it's not a killshot by any means, and it's easily countered. That's the point here. You assume countering AMFs requires some obscure feat or something, but it's quite doable in core without talking about feats at all by around 10th level.

JaronK

AstralFire
2010-02-09, 04:54 PM
I think the crux point is this: It is extremely easy for a DM to limit the Archivist's potential without even making that the primary point. When I still played 3.5, I regularly banned classes even from NPCs for the purpose of setting flavor. Clerics don't exist, but Divine Bards do, to more closely emphasize the religious associations of song. Druids don't exist, Shugenja do in a game where the elements are the focus. Arcane casters don't exist, but psionics does. Crusader doesn't exist, but Swordsages do. Etc. Then there's the type of game - maybe the PCs are trapped somewhere and cannot get to a major metropolis. Maybe it's a low magic world.

To boot - from personal experience, a martial character's weapon is more likely to occupy a prominent place in a DM (or player's) mind than most of the hundreds upon hundreds of spells in the game. Most of the games I've run or seen run, a martial character goes through a handful of weapons at most over the course of several levels - an Archivist gets what, 2 spells every level? Without including what he gets to scribe into his book? It's just much easier to remember to include an upgrade for the Fighter's sword every few levels than to constantly pepper the enemies with divine scrolls that'll be useful.

And all of this is just discussing from the viewpoint of a DM not concerned with balance. One who is may actively attempt to keep the class in control, and it takes very little work to do so, since the principles at play are simple for anyone to understand (as opposed to trying to weaken a Wizard by directly editing existing spells - any veteran of 3.5 boards should be very familiar with how often and how badly this fails, even by people who are moderately experienced with the system).

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 04:57 PM
The dragon just took out 1/4 the party with a move action. I'd say that's pretty good.

What party? I was referring to V's situation, had the dummy not banned Conjuration.

And once he got away, he could Planar Binding some support.


Of the greater variety is what you want. You might miss your target, otherwise.

Teleporting back to somewhere you've already been is pretty easy.

Also, please see JaronK's post. AMF is not a silver bullet even in core. Outside core, it becomes a joke to any prepared and sufficiently leveled Wizard.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-02-09, 04:59 PM
Can Archivists spontaneously cast miracle from seventh-level spell slots?

Serious question.

No...since when can WIZZ-ARDS do that? EDIT: Nevermind...went back and read it.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 05:00 PM
No...since when can WIZZ-ARDS do that?

Since Shadowcraft Mage

faceroll
2010-02-09, 05:04 PM
Why, did contingency stop existing when I wasn't looking? Also, the hat isn't horribly expensive at high levels.

Oh yeah, forgot about contingency. Doesn't change much, though.


Piercing damage is ignored against objects, so his bite is useless. Slashing damage is halved, by the way. Check out the object rules for more information. So yeah, the hat stops him cold. Also, he can't full attack on the round he gets in there.

Bites do slashing, piercing, AND bludgeoning damage. And being a gargantuan creature with 30+ str, maybe he just picks it up.


No, he teleports out of the hat, kills the dragon (or whatever, AMF doesn't last forever, and he can always gate/planar bind/whatever in something to deal with it), and takes his hat back.

Where does he go when he teleports out of the hat?


I don't see why it's 1000lbs of Adamantine, though. It has to be just big enough to cover the Wizard, no larger. And remember, some Wizards are small. My last Wizard was a gnome, and my last caster was (well, is, I'm still playing him) a Kobold.

That's true, but then, you're going to have another -2 or -4 to your str on top of being old and dumping it, and have 3/4 the carrying capacity of a medium creature. My point, though, is that when your teleport goes off, you are going to have difficulty taking the expensive hat with you (you'd be better off with a fabric one or somethin, imo).


As for carrying the hat, well, as soon as the dragon/monk/whatever is dead, the surpressed Permanent Shrink Item spell comes back. Now he puts it back on his head and leaves. Even if somehow that gets dispelled, did Tenser's Floating Disk suddenly leave core when I wasn't looking? The hat still isn't as heavy as you seem to think.

No, what I mean is, you have to abandon an expensive item in battle. A dragon might be tempted to just fly away with it.


And by the way, from Stronghold Builder's Guide we have the price of a 10'X20'X3" wall of adamantine... 30kgp. The raw materials for that cost 70% of that, just over 20kgp. And that's significantly more adamantine than necessary for this hat. It's not that expensive.

Are we out of core now? Because in core, that hat is super-duper expensive. The pricing rules in that 3.0 book are totally busted, too.


He doesn't need to retreat completely. He just has to fall back and take out the dragon. Sure, hitting him with an AMF is an annoyance... but it's not a killshot by any means, and it's easily countered. That's the point here. You assume countering AMFs requires some obscure feat or something, but it's quite doable in core without talking about feats at all by around 10th level.

It's an annoyance like Solid Fog is an annoyance. Depending on what's in play and the particulars of the situation, you could lose anything between rounds to minutes of combat time! It's like the wizard willingly mazing himself or something. Actually, if you want to put your contingency back on (CL 15 for teleport), you have to spend 100 rounds doing so. I would say that's a damn good use of AMF.

In core, what do you suggest he come back and finish that dragon with? Acid Arrow? Gate? Summoned Creatures?

If you come back and the dragon still has AMF, what's keeping him from getting on top of you again? Is all your wealth invested in hats?

Don't get me wrong; it's an awesome trick. Well prepared wizards are very hard to kill, but being hard to kill isn't always winning.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 05:16 PM
Where does he go when he teleports out of the hat?

I don't know, but I'm willing to bet the Dragon doesn't either. So while she's clawing at my empty hat, I'm busy casting my 10 minute backup spells, or making it really hard for her to find me again.


If you come back and the dragon still has AMF, what's keeping him from getting on top of you again? Is all your wealth invested in hats?

Don't get me wrong; it's an awesome trick. Well prepared wizards are very hard to kill, but being hard to kill isn't always winning.

An ABD that can cast AMF like the one V fought is CR 18. By then I should have Gate or a sizeable party - if the dragon is exceeding my CR and I'm alone, then it winning doesn't really prove anything other than the DM wants me dead, which he can do just as easily with falling rocks anyway. A solo fighter - or indeed, any other class - would do no better in that situation.

faceroll
2010-02-09, 05:16 PM
What party? I was referring to V's situation, had the dummy not banned Conjuration.

I'm talking about a hypothetical game, not a comic loosely based on the rules.


And once he got away, he could Planar Binding some support.

For what? The battle's over by that time. Either the party won it without him or died or fled.


Teleporting back to somewhere you've already been is pretty easy.

You're right; I was did my math wrong. It's only about a 10% failure rate of missing.


Also, please see JaronK's post. AMF is not a silver bullet even in core. Outside core, it becomes a joke to any prepared and sufficiently leveled Wizard.

Out of core, after you get autoshunted out of combat with the AMF, you try to come back, only to find that the Dragon Anticipated your teleport and had a round or 3 to position himself exactly where you're going to show up and prepare something suitably nasty. The Dragon also has roughly 1.5x your HD, so will have 1.5x the number of contingencies you do.

Oh yeah, outside of core, the dragon is also a wizard that casts at at least your level, but can also cast spells from any source, thanks to loredrake & spellhoarding. And with the plethora of feats he has, he burns a couple picking up uncanny forethought so he truly is a schrodinger's wyrm.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 05:20 PM
Out of core, after you get autoshunted out of combat with the AMF, you try to come back, only to find that the Dragon Anticipated your teleport and had a round or 3 to position himself exactly where you're going to show up and prepare something suitably nasty. The Dragon also has roughly 1.5x your HD, so will have 1.5x the number of contingencies you do.

Outside of core, I have Celerity, numerous contingencies and Twinmaxed Fell Drain Orbs to go with my hat. So yeah.

faceroll
2010-02-09, 05:23 PM
I don't know, but I'm willing to bet the Dragon doesn't either. So while she's clawing at my empty hat, I'm busy casting my 10 minute backup spells, or making it really hard for her to find me again.

As I said; that's fair. If it's a random encounter, you're missing out on xp & potential treasure, and unless you hunt the dragon down, I imagine you'd both go your separate ways. If it's to get a MacGuffin, well, your MacGuffin getting has been stymied by who knows how long.


An ABD that can cast AMF like the one V fought is CR 18. By then I should have Gate or a sizeable party

If you were V, though, you wouldn't be able to cast Gate, since you banned that school.


if the dragon is exceeding my CR and I'm alone, then it winning doesn't really prove anything other than the DM wants me dead, which he can do just as easily with falling rocks anyway. A solo fighter - or indeed, any other class - would do no better in that situation.

wtf, this isn't a fighter thread.


Outside of core, I have Celerity, numerous contingencies and Twinmaxed Fell Drain Orbs to go with my hat. So yeah.

So does the dragon, except he gets more contingencies. :smallcool:

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 05:27 PM
As I said; that's fair. If it's a random encounter, you're missing out on xp & potential treasure, and unless you hunt the dragon down, I imagine you'd both go your separate ways. If it's to get a MacGuffin, well, your MacGuffin getting has been stymied by who knows how long.

If a dragon that far above my CR was guarding it and I was going after it alone, I wasn't getting it anyway.


If you were V, though, you wouldn't be able to cast Gate, since you banned that school.

That was my point exactly - banning Conjuration is a bad idea precisely because it hurts your options vs. AMF considerably.


wtf, this isn't a fighter thread.

It isn't a wizard vs. dragon one either, yet here we are.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-09, 05:31 PM
Oh yeah, outside of core, the dragon is also a wizardsorcerer that casts at at least your level, but can also cast spells from any source, thanks to loredrake & spellhoarding. And with the plethora of feats he has, he burns a couple picking up uncanny forethought so he truly is a schrodinger's wyrm.

Fixed that for you :smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 05:33 PM
If a dragon that far above my CR was guarding it and I was going after it alone, I wasn't getting it anyway.



That was my point exactly - banning Conjuration is a bad idea precisely because it hurts your options vs. AMF considerably.


If we are fightin V's dragon use Force cage. In real D&D without houserules he can't escape (without teleporting).

faceroll
2010-02-09, 05:34 PM
If a dragon that far above my CR was guarding it and I was going after it alone, I wasn't getting it anyway.

Not if you banned conjuration, anyway.


That was my point exactly - banning Conjuration is a bad idea precisely because it hurts your options vs. AMF considerably.

Oh. Huh. I was just responding to your explanation of the hat trick. It's cool for solo play where you can use it to get a redo (or collect the party corpses). Certainly makes being in an AMF a heckuva lot less dangerous, for sure. But I think there are times when the trick could used against you as much as it saves your skin.


It isn't a wizard vs. dragon one either, yet here we are.

lol, fair enough.


Fixed that for you :smallwink:

You didn't fix any of that, sorry. Non-core dragons get to be wizards thanks to CR +0 templates.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 05:36 PM
Not if you banned conjuration, anyway.

Yes, exactly.


Oh. Huh. I was just responding to your explanation of the hat trick. It's cool for solo play where you can use it to get a redo (or collect the party corpses). Certainly makes being in an AMF a heckuva lot less dangerous, for sure. But I think there are times when the trick could used against you as much as it saves your skin.

The only times it can be used against you are when running is the wrong thing to do. But as I said before - if your DM pits you against an ABD with class levels, doesn't allow you to run, and you don't have 9ths yet - he is basically exercising fiat to kill you anyway.


If we are fightin V's dragon use Force cage. In real D&D without houserules he can't escape (without teleporting).

Actually, RAW Forcecage doesn't work. It's RAMS you're thinking of.

faceroll
2010-02-09, 05:42 PM
The only times it can be used against you are when running is the wrong thing to do.

Right. If your party's in combat, and you run away, it may have been the wrong thing to do.


But as I said before - if your DM pits you against an ABD with class levels, doesn't allow you to run, and you don't have 9ths yet - he is basically exercising fiat to kill you anyway.

It really depends on power level. It's certainly within the guidelines for a high powered level 14 or 15 party, especially if it's only the dragon (no henchmen) and there are 4 or more characters on your side.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 05:44 PM
Right. If your party's in combat, and you run away, it may have been the wrong thing to do.

And getting two-shotted by an over-CRed dragon will help them out more?

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 05:47 PM
Actually, RAW Forcecage doesn't work. It's RAMS you're thinking of.

RAMS? Bah Ram you?

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 05:49 PM
RAMS? Bah Ram you?

Rules As Make Sense.

It makes sense that Forcecage should be just as resistant to an AMF as Wall of Force is... but RAW, Forcecage is not listed as being exempt.

I would allow it, but the Giant clearly thinks differently from me.

faceroll
2010-02-09, 05:52 PM
And getting two-shotted by an over-CRed dragon will help them out more?

It depends; do you walk around with a contingency that goes off outside of your control that can be used against you, or do you use an immediate cast spell (like Celerity) to gain an action as soon as you make your spellcraft check and dimension door to a safer spot, benignly transpose yourself with the party tank, fire a last ditch uber orb at it, summon a wall between the two of you, or do something really clever?

AstralFire
2010-02-09, 05:53 PM
Rules As Make Sense.

It makes sense that Forcecage should be just as resistant to an AMF as Wall of Force is... but RAW, Forcecage is not listed as being exempt.

I would allow it, but the Giant clearly thinks differently from me.

I wouldn't allow it simply because it's Rules As Less Broken. It takes a LOT of bite out of Forcecage to non-magical characters.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 05:54 PM
It depends; do you walk around with a contingency that goes off outside of your control that can be used against you, or do you use an immediate cast spell (like Celerity) to gain an action as soon as you make your spellcraft check and dimension door to a safer spot, benignly transpose yourself with the party tank, fire a last ditch uber orb at it, summon a wall between the two of you, or do something really clever?

Well outside of core I obviously would have no reason to run instead of fight. I've said this numerous times.

Core-only, my only spells that will work against a dragon with AMF active take 10 minutes to cast, unless I have Gate (which by rights I should) and a CR 34 Outsider will trivialize the encounter.


I wouldn't allow it simply because it's Rules As Less Broken. It takes a LOT of bite out of Forcecage to non-magical characters.

Nonmagical characters don't have AMF anyway, so allowing it changes nothing.

AstralFire
2010-02-09, 06:01 PM
Nonmagical characters don't have AMF anyway, so allowing it changes nothing.

No, but it is one of the most preferred class of magic item for nonmagical characters having too much issue with the supernatural. At least for people who aren't trying to Giacomo their way through things.

Volkov
2010-02-09, 06:04 PM
Me, I just make the party wizard make me an epic item that will instantly counterspell any spell thrown at me or is capable of causing capable indirect harm. It's considerably more useful than an anti-magic field. :smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 06:18 PM
No, but it is one of the most preferred class of magic item for nonmagical characters having too much issue with the supernatural. At least for people who aren't trying to Giacomo their way through things.

Ha! You tickled me there.

But a nonmagical character who isn't a dragon is going to have much bigger problems than Forcecage if he activates an AMF vs. a Wizard past 5th level. How will he catch him?

Or an Archivist, for that matter (tries to get the thread back on track)

Thrawn183
2010-02-09, 06:25 PM
To try and bring this discussion at least somewhat back to what it was meant to be about.

The biggest strength of the archivist is that they spells they are looking for are generally low level. The whole idea of getting access to spells at lower level than you normally might, means you can save those higher level spell slots for things like attack spells.

I've played a cleric with 9th level spell casting. I found that I only actually used a few attack spells, because they were just that good. Also, miracle and mass heal make for some weird encounters. Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of the spells an archivist are looking for are probably 4th level or lower.

Sure, he'll still need to find a few higher level ones, but it's pretty tough to just say that there are no high level casters at all... anywhere. When you consider that any cleric and druid can cast all the spells on their spell list, it really isn't hard to just wait a day for them to prepare the spell.

Doug Lampert
2010-02-09, 06:29 PM
Anything with a price under a community's gp limit is likely available, but what's "the price" of a scroll of holy smite? It doesn't even appear on the DMG's list of scrolls. It doesn't, to my knowledge, have an official price.

Scrolls, wands, and potions have explicit and CLEAR rules stating the price of any such item given in the PHB under the feats that allow manufacture of such items. From the SRD:

SCRIBE SCROLL [ITEM CREATION]
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level x its caster level x 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.
Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll.

So yes, it has an official price. The base cost is listed quite clearly in rules that are part of the SRD rather than fluff.

AstralFire
2010-02-09, 06:30 PM
Ha! You tickled me there.

But a nonmagical character who isn't a dragon is going to have much bigger problems than Forcecage if he activates an AMF vs. a Wizard past 5th level. How will he catch him?

Or an Archivist, for that matter (tries to get the thread back on track)

Contingency is always banned in my games, full-stop, so it's not as big a deal. If you mention "Craft Contingent Spell" or "Invoke Magic" I will slather you in A1 sauce and set my dogs on you.

Regarding the Archivist, I had that long post a page or so back explaining why the Archivist is probably more of a Tier 2 in practice in most games - it's too easy for a DM to unintentionally limit it, let alone how easy it is to intentionally limit one, compared to the complexity of neutering the others of the Big 5.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 06:33 PM
Contingency is always banned in my games, full-stop, so it's not as big a deal. If you mention "Craft Contingent Spell" or "Invoke Magic" I will slather you in A1 sauce and set my dogs on you.


Death by dog licks and breath?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-09, 06:33 PM
Scrolls, wands, and potions have explicit and CLEAR rules stating the price of any such item given in the PHB under the feats that allow manufacture of such items. From the SRD:

SCRIBE SCROLL [ITEM CREATION]
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level x its caster level x 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.
Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll.

So yes, it has an official price. The base cost is listed quite clearly in rules that are part of the SRD rather than fluff.

It has an official price to make. That doesn't say anything about what the price is on the general market. Supply and demand can reasonably come into play. To use an obvious example, if your planet has exactly one caster of at least 17th level, 9th level scrolls might end up being much more expensive. On the other hand, fewer people might be able to use them. So less demand. The economics of scrolls could be very complicated.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 06:34 PM
Sure, he'll still need to find a few higher level ones, but it's pretty tough to just say that there are no high level casters at all... anywhere. When you consider that any cleric and druid can cast all the spells on their spell list, it really isn't hard to just wait a day for them to prepare the spell.

And even if you can't find any high-level scrolls, just fill your 8th and 9th slots with Holy Word, Harm etc, leaving a few slots for the spells you learned naturally on levelling. There are some mid-level spells that are always useful.


It has an official price to make. That doesn't say anything about what the price is on the general market. Supply and demand can reasonably come into play. To use an obvious example, if your planet has exactly one caster of at least 17th level, 9th level scrolls might end up being much more expensive. On the other hand, fewer people might be able to use them. So less demand. The economics of scrolls could be very complicated.

Extremely complicated, especially once you factor in deities like Mystra and Waukeen who want a scroll market.

absolmorph
2010-02-09, 06:58 PM
It has an official price to make. That doesn't say anything about what the price is on the general market. Supply and demand can reasonably come into play. To use an obvious example, if your planet has exactly one caster of at least 17th level, 9th level scrolls might end up being much more expensive. On the other hand, fewer people might be able to use them. So less demand. The economics of scrolls could be very complicated.
Base price for Holy Smite: 900 gp (4 (spell level)x9 (caster level)x25)
It's a really rare spell? Okay, double the price. Maybe triple it.
Cool, it's now a really rare spell with a cost of 1800/2700 gp. Although, honestly, it's a 4th level Good domain spell. There should be a ton of clerics who can cast it. It should be fairly common.
It's not as hard to come up with a price as you seem to think.

Optimator
2010-02-09, 07:59 PM
Diplomacy is a class skill for Archivists. That helps with getting rare scrolls, I reckon.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 08:02 PM
So are all the Knowledge skills (Religion, Local, History, Nobility) for finding the organizations that would sell them.

Come to think of it, so is Gather Information.

Really, fiat is the only way to keep them from spells - not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, as long as the Archivist player knows to expect this.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-09, 08:16 PM
I did think of one quick fix to many of the problems. simply, if a spell exists on multiple lists, the Archivist can learn the spell as the highest listed spell level. This would prevent a good deal of the cheese dealing with paladins, rangers and the sort, while still being quite powerfl.
Setting defaults would probably be better than saying a flat 'highest level.' Saying that the standard Cleric version takes precedence, then Druid, and probably Sorc/Wiz after that in the case of things that happen to turn up lower elsewhere.

There are a lot of things that are "part of the rules". That still doesn't mean your DM is going to let you get away with them. How often do you drown your characters to 0 hit points? Have you ever broke the economy by buying mithral chain shirts for huge characters, smelting them down, and selling ingots for massive profits?
There's a difference between rules exploits and fundamental design assumptions. Full market access is a fundamental design assumption. Removing it is a massive houserule not to be sprung on the party without warning.

Denying a player the ability to purchase something even after combing the multiverse is simply wielding DM authority like a sledgehammer.

Guns and explosives are available for sale in virtually the entire U.S. You still may have to have a permit, a background check, a clean criminal record and go through a waiting period depending on local laws. It doesn't say anything about all of those. Medical drugs are available for sale at my pharmacy, but the ones perceived as subject to abuse require a prescription from a doctor. An appliance may be available for sale at a store, but when you investigate that may not mean that they have it in stock at that location for you to take home that day. They might have to ship it. Requiring similar things for scrolls does not make them unavailable for sale.
All you need to buy a gun or just about any drug is a pile of money and someone looking for a pile of money. And putting a time lag on a purchase does nothing to prevent it nor to balance out the game.

Also, this applies every bit as much to magic swords as it does to magic scrolls. Swag restrictions applied even-handedly screw muggles far more than an Archivist.

*Shrugs* I think having to find the black market under metropolis where the evil spells are sold could be kind of exciting. Using items as a plot hook to go on a quest for a local temple could help to motivate the party into action. Whether or not something advances the story depends on the story the DM is trying to tell.
But it doesn't change the fundamental fact that the items are still available for sale.

And rare scrolls of high level or unusual access spells is hardly "Basic supplies". If the Archivist wants a scroll of bless or barkskin he probably won't have too much trouble getting it. (unless there is a larger campaign reason why he can't, like a feud between that kingdom and the druids...)
For a Wizard or an Archivist, scrolls of all levels and types are extremely basic supplies, every bit as basic as a magic sword is for a fighter.

Not one single thing I have talked about has been for the express purpose of nerfing the Archivist. Every limitation I have described is reasonable for in game reasons that have nothing to do with hurting Archivists.
Everything you've said has been deriving in-game excuses that enable a DM to blame the world for the out-of-game goal of nerfing the Archivist. That's fundamentally deceptive.

The rules never say that there are magic shops. It only says"most likely available". Everything else is just your personal construction of that phrase. No houserules were used in this discussion.

"Most likely" literally means "has a greater than 50% chance." That is its dictionary definition with regards to binary conditions.

Is a Shugenja scroll of Glitterdust available in a randomly selected metropolis? Most likely.

Edit: the DMG (p241) also states that cleric and druid spells are "considered the default because paladins and rangers typically don't involve themselves in making scrolls". So I guess if you let your archivist have Ranger or Paladin spells you have to admit up front that you are using houserules? I mean, that seems a lot clearer and more specific than the sentence about availability in the section on communities.
Except "considered the default" does not mean "the only thing that exists." There are still Ranger and Paladin scrolls. They're just not the default.

Really, fiat is the only way to keep them from spells - not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, as long as the Archivist player knows to expect this.
And the DM openly admits that it is, in fact, fiat and a houserule. And applies said fiat sensibly rather than starving the Archivist to death at every opportunity.

JaronK
2010-02-09, 08:19 PM
Oh yeah, forgot about contingency. Doesn't change much, though.

It gives you an emergency escape and still lets you act.


Bites do slashing, piercing, AND bludgeoning damage. And being a gargantuan creature with 30+ str, maybe he just picks it up.

Then his damage is still halved before hardness is applied, meaning he doesn't go through it at all even in your Power Attacking scenario. Without Power Attack he can't do a darn thing of course.


Where does he go when he teleports out of the hat?

That depends on the situation. If he's using contingency, I'd teleport into my portable hole, which I keep back behind me for emergencies. If not, then it depends on too many variables. If I can lock that dragon down (with Wall of Force, most likely) then I'm teleporting a short distance to get some cover while putting the Wall of Force where it will keep him stuck, and let my party deal with it. If I feel like I've been ambushed, I might teleport much further away so I can stay back, learn more about this Dragon, and then hit it when I'm properly prepared. Either way, that Dragon's about to deal with a fully prepared Wizard (or Archivist) which makes him pretty much doomed, AMF or no.


That's true, but then, you're going to have another -2 or -4 to your str on top of being old and dumping it, and have 3/4 the carrying capacity of a medium creature. My point, though, is that when your teleport goes off, you are going to have difficulty taking the expensive hat with you (you'd be better off with a fabric one or somethin, imo).

I don't see the problem with carrying capacity. I'm a Wizard or Archivist. Honestly, I don't see it coming up (at low levels, I let a donkey carry my stuff. At high levels, Haversacks and Portable Holes cover it. Outside of core, an enveloping pit with built up fortifications is where I keep my stuff, along with undead minions). And again, you act like this hat is stupidly expensive. I've already shown that it's less than 20kgp... for a Kobold, it's probably like 2.5k (which is the cost for enough Adamantium for a 5'X5'X3" section).


No, what I mean is, you have to abandon an expensive item in battle. A dragon might be tempted to just fly away with it.

Still cheap... and I like to put an Arcane Mark on my hat. Congrats, now I can track this dragon down. He's a fool to have picked it up.


Are we out of core now? Because in core, that hat is super-duper expensive. The pricing rules in that 3.0 book are totally busted, too.

Really? Where's the core rules for the cost of this hat?


It's an annoyance like Solid Fog is an annoyance. Depending on what's in play and the particulars of the situation, you could lose anything between rounds to minutes of combat time! It's like the wizard willingly mazing himself or something. Actually, if you want to put your contingency back on (CL 15 for teleport), you have to spend 100 rounds doing so. I would say that's a damn good use of AMF.

Like I said, it depends on situation. If it's a group combat scenario, I just teleported about 50 feet away to let the others get in there.


In core, what do you suggest he come back and finish that dragon with? Acid Arrow? Gate? Summoned Creatures?

Depends on level, though Summoned critters won't get the job done (they get surpressed). Also depends on party makeup. Me, I'd probably be sicking undead on him, but that's because I like Necromancers, and then dropping Shrink Item'd rocks on him because I'm a total prankster (and yes, I often keep a few Shrink Item'd rocks or iron balls (thanks Wall of Iron) on me for just this sort of thing). It also depends on how he's casting AMF. If he's used up his use for the day, he's mine.


If you come back and the dragon still has AMF, what's keeping him from getting on top of you again? Is all your wealth invested in hats?

Again, depends too much on resources available to me. But the hat is just an emergency "holy crap an AMF" defense. Once I go on the offensive, I'm a caster on the offensive. Heck, if I've got a flight spell up anyway, that first teleport may have put me 100' above him with a shrink item'd rock!

JaronK

absolmorph
2010-02-09, 08:30 PM
Personally, I think any spells an Archivist wants to find should require some sort of short quest if they're unlikely to be found in a city.
For example, finding a druid to learn Greater Magic Fang. Once you find the druid, they ask you to help them with a problem, and they'll work with you to scribe the scroll in return for your service. Maybe a small-time necromancer has been raising undead in the woods and generally just screwing with the natural beaties in the area. So, the druid asks you to get rid of him. As a reward, you get the scroll.
And the same can be applied to ANY spell. Just make it a more difficult quest to find the person if it's an especially obscure spell. And make earning their trust more difficult if it's an especially powerful spell.
For example, you would need to find a level 17+ cleric to get Gate. Since this is an especially powerful spell, you would also need to prove your trustworthiness to a greater degree than, say, Summon Monster I.
Thus, the Archivist still has access to all the spells, it's simply more work to gather them all.

I like the idea of having groups who gather spells and allow access to them. I'd make being part of an organization a requirement, but it's quite believable, and moreso than nobody ever bothering to do so. After all, what do you think libraries were intended to be?

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-09, 08:38 PM
Personally, I think any spells an Archivist wants to find should require some sort of short quest if they're unlikely to be found in a city.
For example, finding a druid to learn Greater Magic Fang. Once you find the druid, they ask you to help them with a problem, and they'll work with you to scribe the scroll in return for your service. Maybe a small-time necromancer has been raising undead in the woods and generally just screwing with the natural beaties in the area. So, the druid asks you to get rid of him. As a reward, you get the scroll.
And the same can be applied to ANY spell. Just make it a more difficult quest to find the person if it's an especially obscure spell. And make earning their trust more difficult if it's an especially powerful spell.
For example, you would need to find a level 17+ cleric to get Gate. Since this is an especially powerful spell, you would also need to prove your trustworthiness to a greater degree than, say, Summon Monster I.
Thus, the Archivist still has access to all the spells, it's simply more work to gather them all.
However, there's still the inherent unfairness that the Archivist is being forced to go way out of her way for a single very low-cost spell/service that may not even top a thousand gold at a point where the Fighter has a sword in the tens-of-thousands of gold range. That casting of Greater Magic Fang can have a market value as low as 150g. That's chump change. That's financially on par with forcing someone on a quest for a horse. The quest reward in this case is just utterly, ridiculously, unreasonably pathetic.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 08:43 PM
To be fair, while I could definitely see divine bards and clerics in the scroll scribing business, druid spells might be a bit harder to acquire, especially since they would look askance at an archivist in the best case.

However, that should really only come into play for 6th level spells and up. Archivists should have no problems finding anything below that - at least, no more than a wizard would.

absolmorph
2010-02-09, 08:52 PM
However, there's still the inherent unfairness that the Archivist is being forced to go way out of her way for a single very low-cost spell/service that may not even top a thousand gold at a point where the Fighter has a sword in the tens-of-thousands of gold range. That casting of Greater Magic Fang can have a market value as low as 150g. That's chump change. That's financially on par with forcing someone on a quest for a horse. The quest reward in this case is just utterly, ridiculously, unreasonably pathetic.
GMF was just an example. It was a spell that only Druids and Rangers have on their spell list (that I know of), and it came to mind before other stuff.
And I didn't say that was the only reward; that same druid could help you with other stuff, or helping him out (and taking down the necromancer) could make other druids more respectful of you, since you've helped protect nature.
This would come into play later when you want to get, say, Regenerate, Shapechange or Summon Nature's Ally IX. All those little quests you did to get lower-leveled spells (which also helped you get stronger) got the druids to trust you with really powerful spells.
In the short term, yeah, it's kinda lame. But you get XP and more spells for less effort later on, not to mention a reputation.

AstralFire
2010-02-09, 08:53 PM
There's a difference between rules exploits and fundamental design assumptions. Full market access is a fundamental design assumption. Removing it is a massive houserule not to be sprung on the party without warning.

1) Full market access is a fundamental design assumption. Divine Bards, Shugenja, Geomancers, Artificers, and Spell Compendium are not. Neither are the domains outside of the PHB.
2) There are many 'fundamental design assumptions' casually and unintentionally broken far more often than others. Ask how many DMs actually run most days with 4 encounters a day. (Side note: 4 encounters/day, 14 encounters to level = 50 days to become a god.)

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 01:28 PM
Denying a player the ability to purchase something even after combing the multiverse is simply wielding DM authority like a sledgehammer.


Agreed but


Is a Shugenja scroll of Glitterdust available in a randomly selected metropolis? Most likely.

Not at all. If Shugenja's aren't common in the setting, they wouldn't have much reason to even make these scrolls. If for example one is in a very European style setting one might need to travel to a far off land to get this sort of thing.

Yes, in the long-run this doesn't do much to balance. But if a character needs to travel all over the planet to get his power, I'm sort of ok with that.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 01:32 PM
Agreed but


Not at all. If Shugenja's aren't common in the setting, they wouldn't have much reason to even make these scrolls. If for example one is in a very European style setting one might need to travel to a far off land to get this sort of thing.

Yes, in the long-run this doesn't do much to balance. But if a character needs to travel all over the planet to get his power, I'm sort of ok with that.

Yes - Shugenja scrolls, Adept scrolls, Divine Bard scrolls... even Paladin and Ranger scrolls can/should be hard to acquire in many settings.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:35 PM
Yes - Shugenja scrolls, Adept scrolls, Divine Bard scrolls... even Paladin and Ranger scrolls can/should be hard to acquire in many settings.

Not Adept scrolls, Adepts are quite common.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 01:37 PM
Not Adept scrolls, Adepts are quite common.

Depends on the setting. In Eberron for example adepts are very common, since most priests are adept/experts or just experts. Moreover, Eberron has the "Domain adept" which gets domain spells like a cleric for a single domain but loses the familiar. So this would help out a lot. In some other setting, this isn't the case. For example, in both Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, adepts are close to non-existent. It really varies on the setting. I think in most settings that don't have insanely high-powered magic levels, adepts might even be the most common form of divine spellcaster.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 01:38 PM
2) There are many 'fundamental design assumptions' casually and unintentionally broken far more often than others. Ask how many DMs actually run most days with 4 encounters a day. (Side note: 4 encounters/day, 14 encounters to level = 50 days to become a god.)

1)Deaths will delay this. 4 ecounters per day will wear down the best parties, and even with exp compensation the progress won't be as planed as each lost level makes you easier to take down to a lucky enemy hit.
2)And what's the problem again with the PCs becoming gods in some months? Isn't a lot of fiction based on individuals becoming uber powerfull in less than a year?
3)If the campaign lasted enough time for all those ecounters to happen, then it must have been one hell of an epic campaign, and I doubt anyone will be complaining.

Thrawn183
2010-02-12, 01:45 PM
My take on the ability to find spells? Low level cleric scrolls are incredibly easy to find. The only thing easier are low level adept scrolls because adepts are all over the place. Even higher level one's are just a bit more expensive. Pretty much any core spell you want can be found as long as you can find a city.

Low level ranger and paladin scrolls can be found, but they are a bit less common because those classes don't generally take scribe scroll and therefore the creation of said scrolls would take cooperation with someone who does have the feat. Still, they are quite common. Now, higher level paladin and ranger spells (3-4) are a bit more rare just because of the higher character levels required. They can still be found, it might just take you a while. If you can find one of the higher level characters, it's a piece of cake.

Druid spells are the kicker. I generally don't make druid scrolls available in cities and most of the druids are out in the wilderness. Usually the way I handle druids is you have to perform some sort of service to gain his initial trust and then you just have to provide standard compensation. If you have 2 weeks downtime, I'll often just handwave it as "you meet [insert Druid X here] he has you kill off some dinosaurs that have been wreaking havok, so it takes you about 10 days to get these 3 high level scrolls you wanted," I also make it where the better terms you have with said druid, the easier it is to befriend others, including higher level ones.

Players in my campaigns have never wanted anything other than adept, cleric, druid, paladin and ranger spells, so I've never really had to make decisions about those.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:54 PM
Druid spells are the kicker. I generally don't make druid scrolls available in cities and most of the druids are out in the wilderness. Usually the way I handle druids is you have to perform some sort of service to gain his initial trust and then you just have to provide standard compensation. If you have 2 weeks downtime, I'll often just handwave it as "you meet [insert Druid X here] he has you kill off some dinosaurs that have been wreaking havok, so it takes you about 10 days to get these 3 high level scrolls you wanted," I also make it where the better terms you have with said druid, the easier it is to befriend others, including higher level ones.

Or, if you're feeling particularly powerful, go and Dominate a druid into scribing the scrolls for you. DISCLAIMER: I am not responsible for gory deaths resulting from following this advice.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 01:54 PM
Druid spells are the kicker. I generally don't make druid scrolls available in cities and most of the druids are out in the wilderness. Usually the way I handle druids is you have to perform some sort of service to gain his initial trust and then you just have to provide standard compensation. If you have 2 weeks downtime, I'll often just handwave it as "you meet [insert Druid X here] he has you kill off some dinosaurs that have been wreaking havok, so it takes you about 10 days to get these 3 high level scrolls you wanted," I also make it where the better terms you have with said druid, the easier it is to befriend others, including higher level ones.

Agreed wholeheartedly. In everywhere except possibly Eberron, Druids are going to very jealously hoard their spells, and not trust Archivists at all. You're not going to be able to just stroll up to the sacred glade and chat up a dryad shopkeeper.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 03:43 PM
I typically see all core spells as being pretty available, within the DMG restrictions on prices. These are your most common spells, and the guidelines for casters of a given level within a city mean there are a plethora of possible casters out there. Many of them, including almost every wizard, will have scribe scroll, since it is really the most basic item creation feat for casters, and yup, gods of magic and knowledge will want to further this. There may be exceptional situations in which magical goods are not easily available, but they are relatively rare.

Now, if you want something scribed by a level three ur-priest with sanctum spell, you'll have rather more difficulty finding one. They'll exist, certainly, but you'll need to find them, and being evil by class pre-requisite, they may not want to be found.

So, a certain level of restriction may make sense, but not in any way that makes the archivist meaningfully less powerful.

JaronK
2010-02-12, 04:37 PM
Druid spells are the kicker. I generally don't make druid scrolls available in cities and most of the druids are out in the wilderness. Usually the way I handle druids is you have to perform some sort of service to gain his initial trust and then you just have to provide standard compensation. If you have 2 weeks downtime, I'll often just handwave it as "you meet [insert Druid X here] he has you kill off some dinosaurs that have been wreaking havok, so it takes you about 10 days to get these 3 high level scrolls you wanted," I also make it where the better terms you have with said druid, the easier it is to befriend others, including higher level ones.

I have to wonder... what about getting them from other Archivists? Surely Archivists collect such spells. It's in their fluff! Why wouldn't they trade around their nifty harder to find spells?

In fact, think about how items in Diablo 2 or Magic: The Gathering are traded around. I would imagine that Archivists would have a similar system... certain spells are worth more than others. How common a spell is, how powerful the spell is, and so on would effect the trade value. There might even be a few standard commodity spells... X spell might be worth Y Glitterdust equivalents, for example. You don't lose the spells when you trade them, but you agree to copy based on the value of the spells. I imagine the temples to magic might even have sanctioned trade fairs... every Archivist walking in has to accept a Gaes or something forcing them to trade fairly and follow agreements, and then they go around trading, and the temple gets copies of many of the spells traded.

That might be really interesting, actually.

JaronK

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 04:42 PM
I have to wonder... what about getting them from other Archivists? Surely Archivists collect such spells. It's in their fluff! Why wouldn't they trade around their nifty harder to find spells?


That's a valid point, but it is also a function of how common archivists are in the setting. If archivists are rare, this isn't going to help much. If they are common you are in better shape. As with wizards, archivists have great economies of scale/network externalities.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 04:47 PM
That's a valid point, but it is also a function of how common archivists are in the setting. If archivists are rare, this isn't going to help much. If they are common you are in better shape. As with wizards, archivists have great economies of scale/network externalities.

Archvists are bound to be more common that 15th level Paladins if Heroes of Horror is allowed.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 04:49 PM
Archvists are bound to be more common that 15th level Paladins if Heroes of Horror is allowed.

Why? The talent might be rare. Few people might have the intelligence and patience. Paladins might be actively called by the gods. I'm not sure I follow your logic unless you are thinking that because a class is powerful for PCs that means a lot of people in game will go into that line of work.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 04:50 PM
Archvists are bound to be more common that 15th level Paladins if Heroes of Horror is allowed.

Not reaaaally. The assumption for most of the extra base classes is that they're quite rare, rare enough to require knowledge checks of their existence.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 04:55 PM
Why? The talent might be rare. Few people might have the intelligence and patience. Paladins might be actively called by the gods. I'm not sure I follow your logic unless you are thinking that because a class is powerful for PCs that means a lot of people in game will go into that line of work.

True, but power correlates with odds of survival in general. All other things being equal, more archivists than paladins will survive to 15th level.

In a specific campaign world, other factors may be at play, but the power differential between them is high enough to make quite a difference.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 05:03 PM
True, but power correlates with odds of survival in general. All other things being equal, more archivists than paladins will survive to 15th level.

In a specific campaign world, other factors may be at play, but the power differential between them is high enough to make quite a difference.

Not necessarily. Without some idea of what the numbers are we can't make any judgment. If for example archivists are 10 times as likely to survive to 15th level but there are about 100 times as many paladins to start with then there will still be 10 times as paladins at 15th level. Without some ideas of the actual ratios we can't make this judgment.

absolmorph
2010-02-12, 07:41 PM
Why? The talent might be rare. Few people might have the intelligence and patience. Paladins might be actively called by the gods. I'm not sure I follow your logic unless you are thinking that because a class is powerful for PCs that means a lot of people in game will go into that line of work.
Then wizards would be rare, too.
Given that, y'know, they're basically divine and arcane versions of the same thing.
Also, there's no mention of a need for talent of any sort. If there was, then the same issue would apply to wizard.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 07:45 PM
Why? The talent might be rare. Few people might have the intelligence and patience. Paladins might be actively called by the gods. I'm not sure I follow your logic unless you are thinking that because a class is powerful for PCs that means a lot of people in game will go into that line of work.

...It was an effing joke about Paladins in general. And Optimization too (who the hell goes straight Pally for 15 levels without actually wanting to go into Blackguard?).

Starbuck_II
2010-02-12, 09:37 PM
Why? The talent might be rare. Few people might have the intelligence and patience. Paladins might be actively called by the gods. I'm not sure I follow your logic unless you are thinking that because a class is powerful for PCs that means a lot of people in game will go into that line of work.

Called by the gods... but you don't worship gods to be a Pally (barring FR)... are you sure you don't mean Favored Souls?

Akal Saris
2010-02-13, 12:19 AM
As a sidenote, I house-ruled that archivists in my 3.5 games were able to learn any sorc/wizard scroll if they found a scroll of it.

My archivist PC cheered and immediately scribed burning hands and magic missile... :smalltongue:

absolmorph
2010-02-13, 01:00 AM
...It was an effing joke about Paladins in general. And Optimization too (who the hell goes straight Pally for 15 levels without actually wanting to go into Blackguard?).
-raises hand guiltily-

Leon
2010-02-13, 06:32 AM
No...since when can WIZZ-ARDS do that?

Who needs spells when a half brick in a sock has more stopping power.

Optimystik
2010-02-13, 06:49 AM
...It was an effing joke about Paladins in general. And Optimization too (who the hell goes straight Pally for 15 levels without actually wanting to go into Blackguard?).

Soon :smalltongue: