I hate to bring up plot holes on GiantITP, but... [LotR]

[DomaDoma]

I'm rereading Return of the King for the first time since about 2002, and... well, I don't fault Sauron for corrupting people - it's what he does best - but why in blue blazes did he apparently neglect to use his seeing-stone for, you know, seeing?

[AstralFire]

His envy for the Sword of Omens blinded him to the wonderful gifts he already had in his life.

[SurlySeraph]

My understanding is that he was using it, but he was looking primarily at Gondor and Rohan's armed forces, not at the rag-tag group of adventurers coming towards him.

[warty goblin]

I'm rereading Return of the King for the first time since about 2002, and... well, I don't fault Sauron for corrupting people - it's what he does best - but why in blue blazes did he apparently neglect to use his seeing-stone for, you know, seeing?

My understanding is that the Palantir generally only see each other. Great for passing along messages, but not exactly radar.

[DomaDoma]

My understanding is that the Palantir generally only see each other. Great for passing along messages, but not exactly radar.

What prompted the thread was that Denethor apparently used it to spy on everyone and his dog.

[Hazkali]

I'm not an LotR buff, but perhaps he was unable to use it (fully) in his incorporeal form?

[DomaDoma]

Oh! I just thought of a possible solution. I don't recall the place of the passage, but there was something about the Palantir in Osgiliath being buttloads more powerful than the rest. Is there a possibility that that's the one Denethor has?

[WalkingTarget]

What prompted the thread was that Denethor apparently used it to spy on everyone and his dog.

The palantir are in concert with each other, allowing communication between users. They can be used to view other locations if the user wills it to be so. However, Sauron is the biggest will on the block and was instead showing Denethor sights of his choosing, which were always picked to cause more dismay (i.e. showing the coming of the black ships without showing anything beneficial, like who was actually on the ships).

Sauron could use it like a spy satellite, but that doesn't do him any good unless he's looking in the right spot by chance. He could show Denethor the bad stuff because he knows where his own troops are. That doesn't help him find the fellowship.

edit -

Oh! I just thought of a possible solution. I don't recall the place of the passage, but there was something about the Palantir in Osgiliath being buttloads more powerful than the rest. Is there a possibility that that's the one Denethor has?

No, the one Denethor had was the one installed in Minas Anor (aka Minas Tirith) and the one Sauron, apparently, had was the one from Minas Ithil (aka Minas Morgul). The Osgiliath stone presumably fell into the Anduin when the city fell.

[Texas_Ben]

I'm rereading Return of the King for the first time since about 2002, and... well, I don't fault Sauron for corrupting people - it's what he does best - but why in blue blazes did he apparently neglect to use his seeing-stone for, you know, seeing?
You do realize that the entire war was staged for the sole purpose of keeping Sauron's attentions (and his gaze) occupied, right? It isn't a plot hole, it's pretty much the entire plot.

[factotum]

What prompted the thread was that Denethor apparently used it to spy on everyone and his dog.

You missed the part where Denethor only saw what Sauron wanted him to see, which is why he fell into despair. And yes, the seeing-stones COULD see anything if you had the willpower to direct them (unlike Denethor), but why would Sauron be looking for a pair of hobbits in the middle of nowhere? After all, he expected anyone who found the Ring would claim it for their own and use its power; he literally had no concept that someone, having once possessed the Ring, would have the strength of will to take it to Mount Doom and throw it in--and he was pretty much right on that score, as the events at the Mountain proved!

[Optimystik]

I'm not an LotR buff, but perhaps he was unable to use it (fully) in his incorporeal form?

Yes, I can definitely understand how existing as a giant eye can keep you from seeing things.

(Okay, a less sarcastic response - it's LotR, it doesn't have to make sense.)

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think the seeing stones can be used as both communication and sky camera. But you need to know what to look for, and I am sure Sauron spent more time spying on the ennemy's armies than every inch of Middle-Earth for ragtag band of adventurers he had not idea where they were going. (Gondor? Rohan? the Elves? the Dwarves?)

Saruman sure wasn't forthcoming with intelligence about Aragorn, and Saruman didn't knew where Frodo was. Same thing with Denethor... until Boromir told him so. But then, I doubt Denethor got the time to use the Palantir again.

I think the whole thing of the Palantir is that you open your mind to it.. and other people, with more powerful minds, can see you trough it. Kinda like the internet, I guess; you open yourself to virus the moment you connect. If there is only a handful of computers in the world, and one of the users is using the internet 24/7, he can see when, and who dial in the moment it happens. If it's a Wizard, better not reveal your cards right away, and manoeuver him subtly (Saruman). If it's a Stewart, slowly corrupt his mind. If it's a stupid hobbit, mind-rape him.

[DomaDoma]

You do realize that the entire war was staged for the sole purpose of keeping Sauron's attentions (and his gaze) occupied, right? It isn't a plot hole, it's pretty much the entire plot.

Even so, he should have seen (say) the reinforcements from Rohan coming. Heck, it's pretty baldly stated that he didn't know Saruman was overthrown until Pippin stole the palantir from Gandalf, and you'd think he'd be keeping an eye on the guy he knows is in the process of betraying him.

Nah, Frodo and Sam aren't really the issue here. 'S far as I can tell from Denethor's rantings about what he gleaned from Pippin, the scrying works by naming people, and Sauron would have no reason to know those names.

[MountainKing]

You do realize that the entire war was staged for the sole purpose of keeping Sauron's attentions (and his gaze) occupied, right? It isn't a plot hole, it's pretty much the entire plot.

That's not really a fair way to put it; it certainly doesn't answer the question. Other posters have covered the subject with far better information, but the easiest way to answer the OP's question is "Because Sauron was busy."

[Optimystik]

"Because the plot demanded it."

Fixed, for great justice :smalltongue:

[WalkingTarget]

Nah, Frodo and Sam aren't really the issue here. 'S far as I can tell from Denethor's rantings about what he gleaned from Pippin, the scrying works by naming people, and Sauron would have no reason to know those names.

I don't have books to hand, but the implication as I remember it was that you could direct your gaze wherever you wished. Again, unless you know where you need to be looking at what time, this is of limited usefulness.

Scouting out what's going on at Minas Tirith: fine.
Watching a battle to see how things are going: doable.
Keeping an eye on a fleet that you know the departure dates and whatnot: not beyond his ability.

Keeping tabs on all of your enemies at all times so that if the reinforcements go by an alternate route you don't lose track of them: Less feasible when you've got something like three other fronts to manage and your pretty sure you've blocked off the only roads. It's not like the he gets automatic notifications when important stuff goes down with handy coordinates to help him pinpoint things. The only direct links were between the stones themselves.

[Dienekes]

I'm not an LotR buff, but perhaps he was unable to use it (fully) in his incorporeal form?

Sauron was corporal, just not at full power.

As to the use of the palantir it's debatable if they could see whatever was possible to be seen or if they were just linked to each other.

The ongoing theory I heard was Denethor and Sauron could not go spying wherever they wanted since all the stones were accounted for years ago, but Sauron imposed images to Denethor to make him go insane under the guise of Denethor actually being able to see the world.

[DomaDoma]

Dienekes, that's not really feasible, as Denethor did see what went down with Faramir and Frodo, where Sauron clearly didn't.

Nonetheless - Saruman aside, I am sufficiently reassured by WalkingTarget of the Palantir's limitations in the context of Pelennor. I guessed that the GiantITP Power of Nerd would be used for good here!

(On the other hand, I hope I'm right about the naming thing. Sauron can name the leaders of the apocalyptic forces he's showing Denethor and so forth, but if it's more nebulous than that, there's no reason that Sauron can't just scry on the Ring.)

[Renegade Paladin]

Dienekes, that's not really feasible, as Denethor did see what went down with Faramir and Frodo, where Sauron clearly didn't.
Did he see it so much as Faramir, I don't know, came back and told him?

[Zevox]

You do realize that the entire war was staged for the sole purpose of keeping Sauron's attentions (and his gaze) occupied, right? It isn't a plot hole, it's pretty much the entire plot.
This. The entire point of half of the plot was to divert Sauron's attention. That was why Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron via the Palantir that they acquired from Saruman at the end of The Two Towers - to make Sauron believe he was the threat. Otherwise he would be using the Palantir to search for the Ring, and would almost certainly notice Frodo and Sam once they got close enough if nothing else.


I'm not an LotR buff, but perhaps he was unable to use it (fully) in his incorporeal form?
The movies got this wrong. Sauron was not stuck without a physical form - Gollum even mentions at one point having seen his four-fingered hand. And honestly, I doubt that a physical form would be necessary to use the Palantir anyway, since its use was based on your willpower, not any physical action.

Zevox

[DomaDoma]

Did he see it so much as Faramir, I don't know, came back and told him?

Hmm, yes. I was just too used to the standard retelling omissions by that point. But there's still that Denethor apparently saw all Pippin's private conferences with Gandalf.

[warty goblin]

Hmm, yes. I was just too used to the standard retelling omissions by that point. But there's still that Denethor apparently saw all Pippin's private conferences with Gandalf.

Or, ya'know, guessed that maybe, just maybe, Gandalf would like to know what Denethor's up to, and would ask Pippen to update him?

[Texas_Ben]

Yes, I can definitely understand how existing as a giant eye can keep you from seeing things.

Sauron doesn't exist as a giant eye, so I don't know what you're on about.

[Dallas-Dakota]

The eye is a lie.

[factotum]

Even so, he should have seen (say) the reinforcements from Rohan coming.

Yes, he almost certainly DID know those reinforcements were coming, but I don't think he cared. He didn't think that a couple of thousand horsemen would make a significant difference to the outcome of the battle, and again he probably would have been right if it hadn't been for Aragorn coming up the river--and Sauron could easily have made the same mistake Denethor did when he saw that, e.g. assuming they were reinforcements coming for his own side.

The Palantiri, whatever else they may have done, did NOT make the user omniscient--they just allowed them to look at a remote location or person and talk to people over long distances. The user still had to know where to look to see important things.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yes, he almost certainly DID know those reinforcements were coming, but I don't think he cared. He didn't think that a couple of thousand horsemen would make a significant difference to the outcome of the battle, and again he probably would have been right if it hadn't been for Aragorn coming up the river--and Sauron could easily have made the same mistake Denethor did when he saw that, e.g. assuming they were reinforcements coming for his own side.

The Palantiri, whatever else they may have done, did NOT make the user omniscient--they just allowed them to look at a remote location or person and talk to people over long distances. The user still had to know where to look to see important things.

That's a very good point. But on the other hand, the whole army of Gondor was waiting to the south to stop those very corsair (ironic, isn't it?). Why would Denethor panick at their sight, while he ACTUALLY prepared for that contingency? the city was directly under attack because they were coming.

[Douglas]

he literally had no concept that someone, having once possessed the Ring, would have the strength of will to take it to Mount Doom and throw it in--and he was pretty much right on that score, as the events at the Mountain proved!
As far as Sauron was concerned, it was not a matter of strength of will. It's that he could not conceive of anyone wanting to destroy such a great source of power.

[Zen Monkey]

As for Sauron's form, it varies depending on whether you mean the books or movies. The books, if I recall correctly, have him existing as a body. The movies, have him as a giant eye. It's two different tellings of the same core story, so who is 'right' depends on what version of the story you are discussing.

[hamishspence]

Unfinished Tales goes into some depth on the palantiri, and how they actually work.

[Texas_Ben]

That's a very good point. But on the other hand, the whole army of Gondor was waiting to the south to stop those very corsair (ironic, isn't it?). Why would Denethor panick at their sight, while he ACTUALLY prepared for that contingency?
The fact that they were on their way to Minas Tirith would indicate that his forces in the south had already been wiped out. That's how I read it, anyway,


Yes, he almost certainly DID know those reinforcements were coming, but I don't think he cared. He didn't think that a couple of thousand horsemen would make a significant difference to the outcome of the battle
Quite so. Not to mention that the forces at Minas Tirith were just wave 1. If they got wiped out... there were plenty more troops he could throw at them, and he would grind them down eventually.

[Optimystik]

Unfinished Tales goes into some depth on the palantiri, and how they actually work.

By all means, let's have the cliff notes then!


Sauron doesn't exist as a giant eye, so I don't know what you're on about.

He either looked like or commanded one, and I'm really not invested enough in the mythos to care which.

[KnightDisciple]

In the movie, yes, he looked like one.

In the book, I always took it more to mean that was a symbol. Whenever someone encountered him, his "burning eyes" were what stuck most in your mind, That's not to say his physical form wasn't very weak, mind. That's why he needed the ring, to be able to actually go out and about.

[hamishspence]

The reason Sauron couldn't corrupt Denethor in quite the same fashion as he did Saruman, was that the palantiri are much more responsive to a "rightful owner" (or someone duly delegated by the original owners- which the Steward counts as). Thus, Denethor never "went over" but instead became despairing and paranoid.

He had also been using the palantir for a long time- many years.

Apparently they are "polarized" meaning unless they are set up, with North face pointing north, East face pointing east, Top side pointing up and so on, they don't work.

It was pure chance that, when Pippin took it out, it was roughly in the right position.

Even prior to The Last Alliance, "The Eye" is sometimes used in descriptions of Sauron- as in "And the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure".

[Zen Monkey]

And while I know it's been mocked to death already, an airdrop of the ring from a giant eagle seems like a pretty solid plan that someone at the fellowship meeting should have suggested. They could still take the back/secret route, just a lot faster. Even if the last part requires stealth, you could still magic/eagle/etc your way through the first half if not more.

I shall now walk from New York to Los Angeles, avoiding many dangers and harsh conditions, for a journey that will surely be long and that I may not survive. There is no other way!
You could buy a plane ticket, or a least rent a car.
Hmm. You have a point.

[KnightDisciple]

And while I know it's been mocked to death already, an airdrop of the ring from a giant eagle seems like a pretty solid plan that someone at the fellowship meeting should have suggested. They could still take the back/secret route, just a lot faster. Even if the last part requires stealth, you could still magic/eagle/etc your way through the first half if not more.

I shall now walk from New York to Los Angeles, avoiding many dangers and harsh conditions, for a journey that will surely be long and that I may not survive. There is no other way!
You could buy a plane ticket, or a least rent a car.
Hmm. You have a point.
Of course, the eagles, being something more like form-locked angels, would have stood out like a beacon to Sauron. And we know he had flying assets.

It's one thing to get extracted from Orthanc to Rivendell; it's not like Sauron didn't know Rivendell was there or anything (though it was likely largely protected from his scrying and such).

Instead, they took a much stealthier approach, as Gandalf was much more...subtle...most of the time than the eagles would have been.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Not to mention that the eagles themselves/the valar forbid them to help so directly.

Also there were still armies of archers and flying units.

[Jan Mattys]

According to canon:

Elendil's heirs could use the Palantirs "easily", because they were attuned to them. Aragorn, for example, could have used the Palantir to actually scry around.

Denethor had a difficult time controlling the one he had, but being the righful steward of Gondor AND having an exceptional strenght of will, he was able to battle with Sauron and use the Palantir for quite a long time. This, however, tired him and made him age, because every time he tried to scry, he had both to fight Sauron's visions (through the Minas Morgul stone) and concentrate harder to just use the thing, not being of the House of Elendil. Denethor was able to keep Mordor at bay for a long time, though, and was able to use the Palantir to direct his troops. Sadly, in time Sauron's attempts at breaking his will and spirit through visions proved stronger and the guy became desperate and, ultimately, insane.

The same could be said for Saruman, who had to use a great deal of power to use the seeing stone for actual scrying, and Sauron as well. Of course, that was a trivial task for Saruman and Sauron, both being well above Denethor's power level.

Add that Sauron didn't exactly need the Palantir he had to scry... he just used its eye, which was able to do pretty much the same.


The reason Sauron couldn't corrupt Denethor in quite the same fashion as he did Saruman, was that the palantiri are much more responsive to a "rightful owner" (or someone duly delegated by the original owners- which the Steward counts as). Thus, Denethor never "went over" but instead became despairing and paranoid.

He had also been using the palantir for a long time- many years.

Apparently they are "polarized" meaning unless they are set up, with North face pointing north, East face pointing east, Top side pointing up and so on, they don't work.

It was pure chance that, when Pippin took it out, it was roughly in the right position.

Even prior to The Last Alliance, "The Eye" is sometimes used in descriptions of Sauron- as in "And the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure".
...this will teach me to read the full thread before posting. :smalltongue:

[Frozen_Feet]

Wild mass guessing time! In the books, it's notified that Sauron's eye can see pretty much anything if he just sets his mind on it. What if this power was granted by palantiri? Anyways, the book is very clear that Sauron needs to know where to look - and as said by others before, he had no reason to searc for two wayward hobbits.

As for the eagles - they are quasi-divine beings, something that Sauron would know about and something that would be darn easy to notice from, say, a tall whopping tower in the middle corner of a volcanic plain. Sauron was one of the few forces in Middle-Earth with actual airforces - the fell beasts. Flying into Mordor might not have been feasible untill after the ring was destroyed.

[Jan Mattys]

Wild mass guessing time! In the books, it's notified that Sauron's eye can see pretty much anything if he just sets his mind on it. What if this power was granted by palantiri? Anyways, the book is very clear that Sauron needs to know where to look - and as said by others before, he had no reason to searc for two wayward hobbits.

As for the eagles - they are quasi-divine beings, something that Sauron would know about and something that would be darn easy to notice from, say, a tall whopping tower in the middle corner of a volcanic plain. Sauron was one of the few forces in Middle-Earth with actual airforces - the fell beasts. Flying into Mordor might not have been feasible untill after the ring was destroyed.

Also, I clearly remember he installed anti-aircraft artillery and gatling guns just above Sammath Naur, and declared Mount Doom a "no fly zone" just to make sure. :smallbiggrin:

[WalkingTarget]

He either looked like or commanded one, and I'm really not invested enough in the mythos to care which.

Example from the Mirror of Galadriel: "The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing."

And from the Passage of the Marshes: "The Eye: that horrible growing sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to pierce all shadows of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and to see you: to pin you under its deadly gaze, naked, immovable."

The former gives us a visual description. There's nothing there indicating that it represents the entirety of his person: it's just all that we're given. There are other comments that imply a body (having four fingers, Aragorn calling for the master of the black land to come forth, etc), we just don't get an actual description within the text. The latter quote shows the more common usage: "the Eye" being used as a metaphor representing Sauron's will and attention.

[DomaDoma]

It's one thing to get extracted from Orthanc to Rivendell; it's not like Sauron didn't know Rivendell was there or anything (though it was likely largely protected from his scrying and such).

Yup. Rivendell, Lothlorien and hence presumably Gandalf (which is why I didn't bring FotR into the equation: if Sauron has any reason to scry on the Fellowship, it'll be because Gandalf is with them.)

In addition to the severe multitasking already mentioned, we have to remember that the Lonely Mountain and Legolas's kingdom are getting a massive pounding offscreen.

[Oslecamo]

And while I know it's been mocked to death already, an airdrop of the ring from a giant eagle seems like a pretty solid plan that someone at the fellowship meeting should have suggested. They could still take the back/secret route, just a lot faster. Even if the last part requires stealth, you could still magic/eagle/etc your way through the first half if not more.


1-The enemy had flying spies. Eagles don't really have a lot of space to hide. Once detected, they would have all the Nazgulls and their mothers after them. On the other hand, halflings are masters of hiding in the ground, several times escaping Sauron's ground forces thanks to their small size.
2-The eagles make it pretty clear that altough they rescued Gandalf from the tower and mountain top, they aren't exactly a taxi service working all over middle earth. They don't do long distance services.

[Prime32]

Wild mass guessing time! In the books, it's notified that Sauron's eye can see pretty much anything if he just sets his mind on it. What if this power was granted by palantiri? Anyways, the book is very clear that Sauron needs to know where to look - and as said by others before, he had no reason to searc for two wayward hobbits.Isn't that explicitly stated? At the very least, it greatly enhanced his "gaze".

Oh, and there was always a giant flaming eye on top of Sauron's tower, but it wasn't Sauron himself.

[hamishspence]

Its not implausible- there isn't really anything suggesting Sauron has, or had, unusual seeing powers without it.

It does have a range limit though- it wouldn't be able to see as far as The Shire- and the book doesn't have the scene the film has, of Sauron trying to see Frodo the moment he puts the ring on, in Bree.



Oh, and there was always a giant flaming eye on top of Sauron's tower, but it wasn't Sauron himself.

There was? the book doesn't suggest that. Though there is that one scene where Frodo spots a red beam of light issuing from a high window of Barad-dur.

Not quite the same thing as an enormous fiery globe on the top.

[Zevox]

The latter quote shows the more common usage: "the Eye" being used as a metaphor representing Sauron's will and attention.
And this is what the Eye of Sauron always is in the books. A metaphor and a symbol, used to represent Sauron's attention, vigilance, and focused will. It is not a physical thing, not at all. Frodo sees it in Galadriel's pool because it symbolizes Sauron's tireless search for the Ring, which he has. And so it is with every other description of it - it is mentioned at times where someone encounters Sauron's will or vigilance, or draws his attention. Nothing more.


Oh, and there was always a giant flaming eye on top of Sauron's tower, but it wasn't Sauron himself.
Except that there was no such thing in the books. The books mention the "Window of the Eye" in the topmost tower, which presumably would be where Sauron's Palantir is, but nothing more. Certainly no idiotic searchlight-like giant flaming eye sitting atop the tower in plain view.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

1-The enemy had flying spies. Eagles don't really have a lot of space to hide. Once detected, they would have all the Nazgulls and their mothers after them. On the other hand, halflings are masters of hiding in the ground, several times escaping Sauron's ground forces thanks to their small size.

Aren't they supposed to be faster than the Nazgul though?


2-The eagles make it pretty clear that altough they rescued Gandalf from the tower and mountain top, they aren't exactly a taxi service working all over middle earth. They don't do long distance services.

I just love when the world is at stake, how the powers of good refuse to actually, y'know, do good.

[Jan Mattys]

Aren't they supposed to be faster than the Nazgul though?

Not really. Outrunning the Fell Beasts is something Gwahir says, but looks more like a claim than a fact. Might be true, but who knows.

Plus, a Fell Beast is fast, but it's not just the Fell beasts. The Witch-King magic is to be put on the equation. Dark magic, I might add, that quite matches, or might even be stronger than Gandalf's power.

You wouldn't really risk the fate of the World against such odds.

[WalkingTarget]

Aren't they supposed to be faster than the Nazgul though?

I just love when the world is at stake, how the powers of good refuse to actually, y'know, do good.

Dunno about faster. From a meta standpoint, Tolkien recognized them for the DEM that they were and restricted how often they are used/show up because to do otherwise would be to disregard the story he actually wanted to tell.

As for the "powers of good", the Powers decided after the last time that they got directly involved in the affairs of the Children that it was a bad idea (y'know, since that fight wound up destroying a fairly big section of the continent). The Children standing on their own is kind of the point. The help that the Powers give is in the form of advisers (the wizards) who were meant to operate via wisdom/advice rather than overt shows of power/bullying. Sure, Gandalf gets a bit more active right at the end, but when the Big Guy Upstairs gives you an atta-boy and sends you back for round 2 you don't mess about.

[warty goblin]

It's also not clear, at least to me, that the eagles themselves would neccessarily be incorruptable. The last thing I'd want is to be 10,000 over Mt. Doom when my eagle decided he really wanted my jewelry.

[Drolyt]

Wasn't the war at Minas Tirith one giant distraction to help Frodo? I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't there a part in Return of the King where Aragorn showed himself to Sauron? I thought the whole point of that was to trick Sauron into thinking that he had the ring in Minas Tirith. At any rate Sauron never heard of Frodo, only Bilbo who he had solid information was in Rivendell and no longer had the ring. Indeed, the whole point of the Fellowship setting out in the direction of Minas Tirith was to mislead Sauron. One of the big plot points was that he couldn't conceive that anyone would try to destroy the ring (and to be fair he was correct; Frodo could not destroy the ring). As for the Palantir, yes they could see anywhere, even the past, if you had a strong enough will, but they communicated most easily with the other stones. They were most likely made by Feanor himself, and it was more or less stated outright that neither Sauron nor Saruman had the ability to create similar objects (although Galadriel could create the mirror, which tells you something about her power). At any rate Sauron did see Frodo, right before the Ring was destroyed.

Edit: As for the Eagles, aside from the fact that they are not supposed to intervene I just don't see them making it to Mount Doom without being spotted. In fact Frodo got caught before he got there, but I think if it was a giant eagle the Orcs saw flying straight for Mount Doom then they would tell Sauron and he would come out and beat that Eagle senseless himself to get his ring back.

[Optimystik]

So grab Eowyn, if he shows up toss her onto his beast so she can kill him. Have an Eagle catch her as she falls. Meanwhile the rest of the squadron flanks Gwaihir to hold off the other 8. Gwaihir beelines for the volcano. At the last minute, Gandalf does his blindy trick and boots Frodo into the smoking crater. Gollum, hiding on Gwaihir's underside this entire time, will launch himself off after Frodo, wrestling the ring from him in mid-air while Crystal Method techno pounds in the background, then kicks Frodo away from the lava to land on a ledge. Gollum, unwilling to release the Precious long enough to gain a handhold plummets into the volcano, setting off a reaction.

As the volcano erupts in the background, Samwise walks away from the explosion in slow-motion, his Ray-Bans reflecting the flickering, dying light from the tower window high above, as the Eagles tightly wheel around for the trip home.

...Or something.

[Jan Mattys]

So grab Eowyn, if he shows up toss her onto his beast so she can kill him. Have an Eagle catch her as she falls. Meanwhile the rest of the squadron flanks Gwaihir to hold off the other 8. Gwaihir beelines for the volcano. At the last minute, Gandalf does his blindy trick and boots Frodo into the smoking crater. Gollum, hiding on Gwaihir's underside this entire time, will launch himself off after Frodo, wrestling the ring from him in mid-air while Crystal Method techno pounds in the background, then kicks Frodo away from the lava to land on a ledge. Gollum, unwilling to release the Precious long enough to gain a handhold plummets into the volcano, setting off a reaction.

As the volcano erupts in the background, Samwise walks away from the explosion in slow-motion, his Ray-Bans reflecting the flickering, dying light from the tower window high above, as the Eagles tightly wheel around for the trip home.

...Or something.

You're still forgetting about Mt. Doom's anti aircraft installations.
If your eagles don't come equipped with flares, you're toasted.

[Oslecamo]

Aren't they supposed to be faster than the Nazgul though?
Considering that they would need to fly in direction of Mordor, the home turf of the Nazgull, being faster doesn't help them that much here. And if Sauruman had limited weather control, then Sauron could probably do stuff to further hinder them. And even then, Sauruman would just order his orc hordes to cover up the volcano with nets/plancks and catch the ring when it was dropped, as the plan would've become obvious. Too many things could go wrong here, whereas it had already been proved that halflings on ground could cheat even a dragon's vigilance.




I just love when the world is at stake, how the powers of good refuse to actually, y'know, do good.
Say that to the elves running away, and the maddened human king, and all the tribes allying with Sauron, and Sauruman leader of the Wizard council who turns and the ents who were just sitting by the sidelines watching the carnage.

[WalkingTarget]

So grab Eowyn, if he shows up toss her onto his beast so she can kill him. Have an Eagle catch her as she falls. Meanwhile the rest of the squadron flanks Gwaihir to hold off the other 8. Gwaihir beelines for the volcano. At the last minute, Gandalf does his blindy trick and boots Frodo into the smoking crater. Gollum, hiding on Gwaihir's underside this entire time, will launch himself off after Frodo, wrestling the ring from him in mid-air while Crystal Method techno pounds in the background, then kicks Frodo away from the lava to land on a ledge. Gollum, unwilling to release the Precious long enough to gain a handhold plummets into the volcano, setting off a reaction.

As the volcano erupts in the background, Samwise walks away from the explosion in slow-motion, his Ray-Bans reflecting the flickering, dying light from the tower window high above, as the Eagles tightly wheel around for the trip home.

...Or something.

Quick, this needs to be filmed/animated/something.

[Dvil]

Aren't they supposed to be faster than the Nazgul though?

Yeah, but the Nazgul are already between them an the mountain, so it's not difficult for them to intercept them. Also, there were also legions of archers present too.



I just love when the world is at stake, how the powers of good refuse to actually, y'know, do good.

Were the Eagles forces of good, though? I thought they were just neutral/indifferent, like the Valar.



EDIT: Wow, major ninja.

[Drolyt]

So grab Eowyn, if he shows up toss her onto his beast so she can kill him. Have an Eagle catch her as she falls. Meanwhile the rest of the squadron flanks Gwaihir to hold off the other 8. Gwaihir beelines for the volcano. At the last minute, Gandalf does his blindy trick and boots Frodo into the smoking crater. Gollum, hiding on Gwaihir's underside this entire time, will launch himself off after Frodo, wrestling the ring from him in mid-air while Crystal Method techno pounds in the background, then kicks Frodo away from the lava to land on a ledge. Gollum, unwilling to release the Precious long enough to gain a handhold plummets into the volcano, setting off a reaction.

As the volcano erupts in the background, Samwise walks away from the explosion in slow-motion, his Ray-Bans reflecting the flickering, dying light from the tower window high above, as the Eagles tightly wheel around for the trip home.

...Or something.

Why would anyone read that? Seriously, the only reason Deus Ex Machina Airlines are in the book is because it's a sequel to the Hobbit and Tolkien wanted to give them a cameo saving Gandalf. They weren't supposed to be major characters, and it's entirely possible they just never thought of sending an eagle towards Mount Doom. Again, in the end even Frodo was corrupted by the ring, why do you think the Eagles would be any different? They were Maiar just like Gandalf, if anything more susceptible than a furry little hobbit.

[Drolyt]

Quick, this needs to be filmed/animated/something.

I think someone did make a flash animation about that.

[Oslecamo]

Again, in the end even Frodo was corrupted by the ring, why do you think the Eagles would be any different? They were Maiar just like Gandalf, if anything more susceptible than a furry little hobbit.

Again, very true. Even Gandalf had to keep the ring at staff's lenght. Like Warty Goblin pointed out, having the super artifact of power in your claws may prove too much for the giant birds, in wich case Frodo has nowhere to run, unlike when Boromir tried to take the ring from him and Frodo ran away.

[Optimystik]

Too many things could go wrong here, whereas it had already been proved that halflings on ground could cheat even a dragon's vigilance.


In fairness, Bilbo wouldn't have cheated Smaug without using the Ring... which Frodo really couldn't do.


Say that to the elves running away, and the maddened human king, and all the tribes allying with Sauron, and Sauruman leader of the Wizard council who turns and the ents who were just sitting by the sidelines watching the carnage.

Trust me, I am. :P


Why would anyone read that? Seriously

Srsly!

[Manga Shoggoth]

Say that to the elves running away, and the maddened human king, and all the tribes allying with Sauron, and Sauruman leader of the Wizard council who turns and the ents who were just sitting by the sidelines watching the carnage.


That's in the film only. In the book the outcome of the Entmoot was to destroy Sauruman. Treebeard was also quite amazed that the Ents made their minds up so quickly.

Ents are very slow to anger (unlike hasty folk like men, hobbits, elves and wizards), but you don't want to get them roused.

The film weakened a lot of the characters in the book for no good reason.

[paddyfool]

On the arrival of the Rohirrim at Pelennor: Sauron had anticipated their coming, and had placed a fortified position on the road to Gondor to block their way. However, he hadn't anticipated Ghan-buri-ghan and the men of the forest spying out his position and leading the riders of Rohan by another route...

On his general distraction: he also had lots and lots of troops to organise, provision etc. That takes time, too.


The film weakened a lot of the characters in the book for no good reason.

Yep. One of my friends reckoned it was because a film's narrative can't cope with too many heroes. So Faramir, Elrond etc. had to be made into jerks, Denethor into a total jerk, etc.

[Drolyt]

Yep. One of my friends reckoned it was because a film's narrative can't cope with too many heroes. So Faramir, Elrond etc. had to be made into jerks, Denethor into a total jerk, etc.

I always wondered what was up with that. But yeah, anyone who comments on this type of thing: make sure you are using the book version. Sauron is most definitely not a floating eye. Also he was completely corporeal, its just that he is missing a good deal of his power without the ring. And Arwen played almost no role in events. And Faramir was a good guy. And Elrond was half-human, he didn't hate humans. Actually Denethor kinda was a jerk in the books.

[frogspawner]

One of my friends reckoned it was because a film's narrative can't cope with too many heroes. So Faramir, Elrond etc. had to be made into jerks, Denethor into a total jerk, etc.
I always think Isildur gets an overly bad press too (even in the book). I mean, he destroyed Sauron's physical form! And created an invincible army with which a descendant could save Gondor millennia later! Wow.

Why is he thought bad? Because he didn't throw in the Ring. But in my opinion no-one could. There at the Crack of Doom, The Ring was at the height of it's power - no mortal could resist it's will (and probably no immortal either).

So 'The Boy Done Good', imho. Let's hear it for Isildur! :smallcool:

[Drolyt]

I always think Isildur gets an overly bad press too (even in the book). I mean, he destroyed Sauron's physical form! And created an invincible army with which a descendant could save Gondor millennia later! Wow.

Why is he thought bad? Because he didn't throw in the Ring. But in my opinion no-one could. There at the Crack of Doom, The Ring was at the height of it's power - no mortal could resist it's will (and probably no immortal either).

So 'The Boy Done Good', imho. Let's hear it for Isildur! :smallcool:

Yeah Isildur wasn't really supposed to be a bad guy. It doesn't help that in the movie they go out of their way to make him look evil. At any rate there were at least a couple people who could resist the ring. Bombadill was unaffected, and Sam was able to avoid its temptation more easily than any other character. Presumably a being of greater power than Sauron could also avoid the effects, although that is most likely limited to the Valar and maybe two or three of the most powerful elves of the first age. At any rate I think the main quality one would need to resist the temptation of the ring is not goodness, which many characters that fell to the ring's influence had. It is trust; specifically, trust that the world was bigger than you and that things would work out for the best in the end. You see, most of the characters who fell to the ring's influence were trying to do good in the beginning, and were later seduced by power. Even Sauron started out that way, and both Gandalf and Elrond believed that that was what would happen if they took the ring. Sam however could not be tempted because he did not seek power, or glory, or even adventure for himself, but traveled all the way to Mount Doom for the sake of his friends. He knew he wasn't important, and that lack of ego made all the difference.

[hamishspence]

Yup.

Unfinished Tales version of his death has him a bit more humble (he's fully aware he can't use the power of the Ring, and suggests he should hand it over to The Keepers of the Three (Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel) after the fight), and he isn't cowardly either- he doesn't run away from the fight until explicitly told to by his son.

The orc attack doesn't come across as "he was heedless and set no guard" the way the Silmarillion version does, either.

[Eldariel]

Its not implausible- there isn't really anything suggesting Sauron has, or had, unusual seeing powers without it.

It does have a range limit though- it wouldn't be able to see as far as The Shire- and the book doesn't have the scene the film has, of Sauron trying to see Frodo the moment he puts the ring on, in Bree.

It's worth noting though that all the "greater beings" of Middle-Earth seem to have some metaphysical existence and a related clairsentience; e.g. when Galadriel mentions how the Sauron's eye is constantly in her mind during the events at the Mirror.

Of course, the sources don't go into detail on all this, but I'd say it's safe to assume that Sauron's clairsentient abilities may have been enhanced by possession of the Palantir, but they aren't completely inexistence without it. Also, I recall some excerpt about Saruman only getting caught when he looked to the east. Though my memory is fuzzy; it's been a good decade since I last read the books in their entirety.

[hamishspence]

Probably when Gandalf is explaining the nature of the palantiri to Pippin, during their trip to Gondor.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yep. One of my friends reckoned it was because a film's narrative can't cope with too many heroes. So Faramir, Elrond etc. had to be made into jerks, Denethor into a total jerk, etc.

Faramir wasn't depicted as a jerk :smallconfused: On the other hand, he did what he believed was right. He was made all the more tragic in the extended edition. Boromir also was made much nicer in the extended edition..

And I didn't perceived Elrond to be a jerk guy either. He simply don't think Men are strong ennough to replace the Elves as defender of the Free People. Can you blame him? In the movie, remember, Aragorn wasn't set on claiming back his throne. So, if Aragorn don't want to become King and unite the Men, there is no hope for them, Elrond is right.

In the book, there was not a glimmer of doubt, so Elrond was a little more positive about the outcome.

[Drolyt]

Faramir wasn't depicted as a jerk :smallconfused: On the other hand, he did what he believed was right. He was made all the more tragic in the extended edition. Boromir also was made much nicer in the extended edition..

And I didn't perceived Elrond to be a jerk guy either. He simply don't think Men are strong ennough to replace the Elves as defender of the Free People. Can you blame him? In the movie, remember, Aragorn wasn't set on claiming back his throne. So, if Aragorn don't want to become King and unite the Men, there is no hope for them, Elrond is right.

In the book, there was not a glimmer of doubt, so Elrond was a little more positive about the outcome.

Faramir was depicted as a huge jerk. He tried to take the ring from Frodo. As for Elrond, he just came off as sort of a jerk in the movie from the way he talks to Gandalf. The fact is their characterizations were changed considerably, and it detracted from the roles they were supposed to play.

[AstralFire]

The characters may have been weakened from the novel, but I didn't read many of them as jerks - and that's just from the theatrical version, not the extended edition. A lot of that is simply a consequence of having to tell a different story in a different medium, I am sure.


Faramir was depicted as a huge jerk. He tried to take the ring from Frodo. As for Elrond, he just came off as sort of a jerk in the movie from the way he talks to Gandalf. The fact is their characterizations were changed considerably, and it detracted from the roles they were supposed to play.

Faramir came off as someone under an incredible amount of stress being forced to make the best of a lot of very bad things. Elrond - 'sort of a jerk' is more accurate, I'd say 'standoffish.'

[Drolyt]

The characters may have been weakened from the novel, but I didn't read many of them as jerks - and that's just from the theatrical version, not the extended edition. A lot of that is simply a consequence of having to tell a different story in a different medium, I am sure.

Some of them yes, but the scene with Elrond and Gandalf actually took quite a bit of time and did nothing but undermine his role as a sort of intermediary between the initial adventure and the main plot; the same role he played in the Hobbit by the way. The same goes for Faramir, his original role would have taken far less time and would have better preserved his literary role, that is, to show that some men were not corrupted by power.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, the movies were excellent. I just don't get why they changed Faramir like that. With Elrond I at least see what they were trying to do, to be honest it pretty much worked, but with Faramir I just don't see why they ruined his character.

[AstralFire]

Some of them yes, but the scene with Elrond and Gandalf actually took quite a bit of time and did nothing but undermine his role as a sort of intermediary between the initial adventure and the main plot; the same role he played in the Hobbit by the way. The same goes for Faramir, his original role would have taken far less time and would have better preserved his literary role, that is, to show that some men were not corrupted by power.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, the movies were excellent. I just don't get why they changed Faramir like that. With Elrond I at least see what they were trying to do, to be honest it pretty much worked, but with Faramir I just don't see why they ruined his character.

Ruined?

Faramir I absolutely loved from the movie. As Jackson used and altered the character, I thought he did a really good job of illustrating the resistance to corruption many men have. Tempted, but able to turn it away when he realized the nature of things - it becomes a strong echoing of Aragorn's similar moments in FotR and RotK. I'd suggest, here, getting the opinions of more people unfamiliar with Faramir outside of the movies; I understand very well how disappointment at changes can alter view of a character, but I personally felt Faramir came off as rather noble and sympathetic in the midst of terrible situations.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Faramir was depicted as a huge jerk. He tried to take the ring from Frodo. As for Elrond, he just came off as sort of a jerk in the movie from the way he talks to Gandalf. The fact is their characterizations were changed considerably, and it detracted from the roles they were supposed to play.

No. Boromir tried to take the ring from Frodo. Faramir tried to take the ring to his Father, and eventually turned away.

Being tempted and standing up to this temptation is all the more heroic than not being tempted at all. I thought Faramir a much stronger character in the movie. His "final charge", as futile as it was, was also so.. tearjerking. The poor man only wants the approval of his father. But he cast that away, and also the Lure of the Ring, by letting Frodo go.

He believed the approval of his father was more important than his life.
He chose to let go of the ring, even if it meant loosing the approval of his father forever.

If that isn't a strong character, heroic character, I don't know what is.

Do you think Aragorn was a weaker character in the movie because he was tempted by the Ring at the end of Movie 1? He had the strenght to turn away to. Same thing for Galadriel. Same thing for Gandalf.

[Kaiyanwang]

Edit: Don't get me wrong, the movies were excellent. I just don't get why they changed Faramir like that. With Elrond I at least see what they were trying to do, to be honest it pretty much worked, but with Faramir I just don't see why they ruined his character.

Alle these struggles were there to make plot interesting and show the power of the ring.

We can say "because of the opposite reasons of the screwing of Tom Bombadil".

[WalkingTarget]

Some of them yes, but the scene with Elrond and Gandalf actually took quite a bit of time and did nothing but undermine his role as a sort of intermediary between the initial adventure and the main plot; the same role he played in the Hobbit by the way. The same goes for Faramir, his original role would have taken far less time and would have better preserved his literary role, that is, to show that some men were not corrupted by power.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, the movies were excellent. I just don't get why they changed Faramir like that. With Elrond I at least see what they were trying to do, to be honest it pretty much worked, but with Faramir I just don't see why they ruined his character.

They changed Faramir so that 1) some random schmo on the street isn't shown to automatically resist the Ring's pull (which the filmmakers decided would confuse the audience or something, at least I think I remember them saying something to that effect in the DVD commentary) and 2) there would actually be stuff happening with Frodo and Sam in the last third of the movie. Since the books were split by characters and not interleaved the narratives got out of step with one another. Heck, by the strict book timeline, Frodo hasn't even met Faramir by the time the battle of the Hornburg happens. To keep Helm's Deep as the climax of the film and have the timeline preserved, Frodo and Sam would only make it as far as the Black Gates.

[AstralFire]

To look at other media: If there are two protagonists it is hard to top on the "Sheer Goodness" chart, they are Jesus and Superman. Both have had to face temptations that could not be so easily turned away as "keep walking, mate," which is how I understand Faramir's interaction with Frodo to go, more or less, in the book. There is definitely a strong sense of cultural (and perhaps even innate) resonance for such characters as being noble.

[Drolyt]

Alright, fair enough, some people did like what they did with Faramir, so I guess they knew what they were doing. I guess it just seemed less necessary to me than the other changes, what they did with Elrond was a good way to show how dire the situation was, the whole thing with Treebeard was a good way to make Merry and Pippin more important, the whole thing with Arwen successfully created a romance almost as horrible as that in the Star Wars prequels, but I just never got the point of the Faramir change.

[hamishspence]

In the book Boromir travels to Rivendell because of a dream- a dream that came twice to Faramir and once to him. Implied to have been sent by the Valar.

The implication is that Faramir should have gone- but because of Boromir's pushiness- he went.

I think the dramatic ending of book 2- with Frodo alive but captured by the orcs- might have actually made for a better cliffhanger ending. Still, they chose otherwise.

I wonder- if they'd made a LoTR TV series, what could have been in it, that was relegated to second hand accounts by Gandalf, and the other people at the Council, and Unfinished Tales?

Maybe the Nazgul's visit to Isengard, where Saruman directs them to the Shire, or the Witch King waking up the horrors of the Old Forest, and the Barrow Wights, and putting them on the watch for the Ringbearer, or Aragorn's hunt for Gollum, or the showdown at Weathertop between Gandalf and the Nazgul (the lights of the battle are visible from some way off, where Aragorn and the hobbits are).

Or all of the above and more :smallamused:

[WalkingTarget]

I think the dramatic ending of book 2- with Frodo alive but captured by the orcs- might have actually made for a better cliffhanger ending. Still, they chose otherwise.

Better cliffhanger ending: yes.

We come up against timing/movie length problems again in order to get there, though. If we get them up the mountain by the end of film 2, what is there to do in film 3? Rescue scene, obviously, but then it's just walking until they get to the Crack of Doom. Juggling the timeline a bit around where they met Faramir, but otherwise the timing in the films' events is pretty close to the books.

As it stands, I thought the end of the second film (with Smeagol/Gollum planning on the upcoming betrayal) worked well enough.

[hamishspence]

For Frodo and co, yes, but there are all the scenes of Gondor, the Battle of the Pelennor fields, and so on.

Still- movies had their good points. Though the first movie plays with the timeline even more. Gandalf doesn't escape Orthanc till the Wraiths are pursuing Frodo around the Shire. Whereas in the books (according to the appendix) Gandalf escapes fairly early.

Unfinished tales has two accounts- in one, the Wraiths arrive at Isengard two days after Gandalf escapes. In the other (described as more closely fitting the timeline in the appendix) they arrive just before Gandalf escapes.

[SolkaTruesilver]

For Frodo and co, yes, but there are all the scenes of Gondor, the Battle of the Pelennor fields, and so on.

Still- movies had their good points. Though the first movie plays with the timeline even more. Gandalf doesn't escape Orthanc till the Wraiths are pursuing Frodo around the Shire. Whereas in the books (according to the appendix) Gandalf escapes fairly early.

Unfinished tales has two accounts- in one, the Wraiths arrive at Isengard two days after Gandalf escapes. In the other (described as more closely fitting the timeline in the appendix) they arrive just before Gandalf escapes.

Frodo was seriously under the idiot ball effet in the book, and delayed his departure by nearly 6 months :smallmad: He was more decisive in the movie.

So was Gandalf.

[WalkingTarget]

Frodo was seriously under the idiot ball effet in the book, and delayed his departure by nearly 6 months :smallmad: He was more decisive in the movie.

So was Gandalf.

To be fair to Frodo, Gandalf did give him the go-ahead to set out when he did. It's not that he wasn't decisive, it's that they were trying to find a way for him to slip off without being noticed (as opposed to simply disappearing like Bilbo had). Things weren't as urgent at that stage in the story (the fact that Gandalf's letter indicating that they had become urgent in June being delayed isn't his fault either).

[Drolyt]

To be fair to Frodo, Gandalf did give him the go-ahead to set out when he did. It's not that he wasn't decisive, it's that they were trying to find a way for him to slip off without being noticed (as opposed to simply disappearing like Bilbo had). Things weren't as urgent at that stage in the story (the fact that Gandalf's letter indicating that they had become urgent in June being delayed isn't his fault either).

I can't remember, but didn't Gandalf not know about the Black Riders looking for Bilbo until after he spoke with Frodo? In fact, I'm fairly certain they weren't looking for him yet.

[SolkaTruesilver]

To be fair to Frodo, Gandalf did give him the go-ahead to set out when he did. It's not that he wasn't decisive, it's that they were trying to find a way for him to slip off without being noticed (as opposed to simply disappearing like Bilbo had). Things weren't as urgent at that stage in the story (the fact that Gandalf's letter indicating that they had become urgent in June being delayed isn't his fault either).

I cannot accept that "we found the artifact that can destroy/save the world" be delayed for a single hour.

Come on, it was the RING. As soon as you have it, just have Frodo say that he has to visit Bilbo as his new home, and leave as soon as possible. In the end, it did no good waiting, eh? the Riders almost got their hands on the Ring.

[Drolyt]

I cannot accept that "we found the artifact that can destroy/save the world" be delayed for a single hour.

Come on, it was the RING. As soon as you have it, just have Frodo say that he has to visit Bilbo as his new home, and leave as soon as possible. In the end, it did no good waiting, eh? the Riders almost got their hands on the Ring.

Most had assumed Bilbo was dead and Frodo was crazy, so telling them he was going to visit Bilbo would just create a huge stir. It made sense to Gandalf at the time to wait to set out so Frodo could get away quietly, since at the time he had no reason to believe that Sauron had good information on Frodo or Bilbo. At any rate at that time they did not yet know what to do with the ring and had no clear plan, and Gandalf wanted to find more information. Once Gandalf got that information he sent Frodo a letter saying to get the hell out of there but Frodo never got it. As a side note the first thing wrote about the book, before the concept of the ring even existed, was Bilbo's party. It is possible that Tolkien simply did not know how to fit Frodo leaving earlier into the narrative so he made him wait.

[SolkaTruesilver]

As a side note the first thing wrote about the book, before the concept of the ring even existed, was Bilbo's party. It is possible that Tolkien simply did not know how to fit Frodo leaving earlier into the narrative so he made him wait.

So it's bad writing. It doesn't take anything away from Lord's awesomeness as a book, but there are some pretty stupid/boring elements in these books. If anything, Jackson simply distillated away some of the weakest/useless elements.

Who cares about Bombaldil? Seriously, he has no point. He's a Big Lipped Alligator Moment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigLippedAlligatorMoment). Only Tolkien fanatics mourn his omisson. If the whole story wasn't even thought up until Rivendale, then all of these elements make a lot of sense as to what they are included in the storyline.

[Drolyt]

So it's bad writing. It doesn't take anything away from Lord's awesomeness as a book, but there are some pretty stupid/boring elements in these books. If anything, Jackson simply distillated away some of the weakest/useless elements.

Who cares about Bombaldil? Seriously, he has no point. He's a Big Lipped Alligator Moment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigLippedAlligatorMoment). Only Tolkien fanatics mourn his omisson. If the whole story wasn't even thought up until Rivendale, then all of these elements make a lot of sense as to what they are included in the storyline.

Have you ever tried writing a novel? The fact that different parts of the narrative where invented at different times is completely normal for a story over a thousand pages long; after all, Tokien wrote the books over a span of years. I really wouldn't call that bad writing unless you really think you could do better. As for Bombadil, that part was also written before the much more serious storyline came into being. LotR was originally supposed to be shorter than The Hobbit, which was at that time considered a long book, especially considering it was for kids. As for Bombadil's narrative purpose, it's well and good that he was left out of the movie but to Tolkien there was something special about his inclusion in the book. Tom represented a sort of living in peace with nature, with no desire for material goods. He could reject the ring not because he was somehow more of a good guy then anyone else, and not because he was uber powerful, but because he didn't care about power. Tolkien felt this was important and left those chapters in even though they were no longer integral to the story. Tokien was a professor of ancient languages and later English literature at Oxford, one of the most renowned universities in the world. If you think you know more about literary theory than he did than go ahead and say that Bombadil was a Big Lipped Alligator Moment, but Tokien knew what he was doing and left him in for a reason.

[factotum]

At any rate there were at least a couple people who could resist the ring. Bombadill was unaffected, and Sam was able to avoid its temptation more easily than any other character.

It wasn't that Bombadil was able to resist the Ring--it simply had no power over him! It's like saying someone blind was able to resist looking at a beautiful picture, if you will.

[Drolyt]

It wasn't that Bombadil was able to resist the Ring--it simply had no power over him! It's like saying someone blind was able to resist looking at a beautiful picture, if you will.

In a way. The ring had no power over Bombadil because he did not desire power. Sam's resisting of the ring was a much more memorable development.

[Optimystik]

Who cares about Bombaldil? Seriously, he has no point. He's a Big Lipped Alligator Moment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigLippedAlligatorMoment). Only Tolkien fanatics mourn his omisson. If the whole story wasn't even thought up until Rivendale, then all of these elements make a lot of sense as to what they are included in the storyline.

That's a little harsh. I too am glad Bombadil didn't make it to the movie - he just wouldn't fit with the movie's pace - but calling people "fanatics" just because they like him is over the top.


In a way. The ring had no power over Bombadil because he did not desire power. Sam's resisting of the ring was a much more memorable development.

While I agree with this, I still think the hobbits had an unfair advantage. To be so dense and parochial that you're almost immune to evil artifacts isn't much of a personal feat. What was it going to tempt him with? Pipeweed? Rosie? Mushrooms?

No, having a human - flawed, lots on his mind etc. - struggle to that volcano and find the strength to toss it in would have been more meaningful for me, even if that wouldn't have been possible in the mythos.

[Drolyt]

That's a little harsh. I too am glad Bombadil didn't make it to the movie - he just wouldn't fit with the movie's pace - but calling people "fanatics" just because they like him is over the top.



While I agree with this, I still think the hobbits had an unfair advantage. To be so dense and parochial that you're almost immune to evil artifacts isn't much of a personal feat. What was it going to tempt him with? Pipeweed? Rosie? Mushrooms?

No, having a human - flawed, lots on his mind etc. - struggle to that volcano and find the strength to toss it in would have been more meaningful for me, even if that wouldn't have been possible in the mythos.

The hobbits were flawed, and Frodo failed to ditch the ring. As a short analysis, note that Sam was the only main character not to have some kind of noble blood. Frodo was a Baggins (very rich) and Bilbo's heir. Merry and Pippin were scions of important families. Boromir was the son of the ruling steward, and Aragon was heir to the throne of Gondor. Gandalf was a freaking angel. Legolas was son of the elf king from The Hobbit. Gimli was of Durin's line. Sam was a gardener and the son of a gardener. Viewed this way, Sam could be a rather heavy handed anvil about how the little unimportant people (like gardeners) can be heroes too. Note that while Merry and Pippin became important after the events of the book, Sam was the only one with an elected position, Mayor, which reinforced that he was a sort of man of the people.

[AstralFire]

Hobbits themselves were slowly turning into humans though, no?

[Prime32]

In a way. The ring had no power over Bombadil because he did not desire power. Sam's resisting of the ring was a much more memorable development.Wasn't Bombadil implied to be a Valar? That would make him more powerful than the Ring.

[Drolyt]

Hobbits themselves were slowly turning into humans though, no?

Something like that. It's not at all clear whether they were a completely different species. At first there were only ainur, humans, and elves, then Aule made dwarves, and Yavanna made ents, both of which were blessed with sentience by Eru. The orcs were corrupted elves and trolls were apparently corrupted ents. Dragons were created by Morgoth but it's not entirely clear how they became sentient because Morgoth didn't have the power to create thinking beings. Ditto for werewolves and those cat things from the original Beren story (assuming they still exist in the final narrative). Hobbits, however, came from nowhere. We can only assume they are an offshoot of men that were so unimportant that they went unnoticed until they had long since established their own nation called the Shire, and even then they were ignored (albeit by decree of Aragorn).

Edit:

Wasn't Bombadil implied to be a Valar? That would make him more powerful than the Ring.
No one really knows what Bombadil was. If he was a Vala he would probably be strong enough to resist the ring, but I don't think he was. He remembers "the first raindrop and the first acorn" and "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside." That really seems to suggest he was there before Melkor, and from The Book of Lost Tales "Melko was there before them", Melko being Melkor and them being everyone else. I don't think this part changed, and it seems to suggest that Tom was there before the Valar.

[SolkaTruesilver]

That's a little harsh. I too am glad Bombadil didn't make it to the movie - he just wouldn't fit with the movie's pace - but calling people "fanatics" just because they like him is over the top.

You might like or dislike Tom Bombadil, that's beside the point. But some people put lot of crap on Peter Jackson for omitting that USELESS character from the movie. I call them fanatic.

The character was there to show us that there was some people in the world that could live without a care for those around, and would want any power. Yay. In other world, he was about as important to the narrative as a hilltop, without the strategic importance.

@Droytl

I don't have to be a writer myself to claim that a specific element of a story is useless/pointless. Nor that elements of a story are poorly designed. Claiming that Lord of the Rings's initial writing was written when Tolkien did not had a grasp of the whole picture doesn't take away his literracy genius. It just means that the start of the book is probably its worst element, and probably would have needed some serious editing in a modern world.

Because a character is important to the writer doesn't make it a strong character to the story. I'm glad he had some attachment to Bombadil, but it's still a useless BLAM. The heroes still have to save the world, eh?

[AstralFire]

I like the movies much more than the books. (I found myself completely unable to focus and finish Return of the King, and I am normally a voracious reader. My memories of the other books which I did complete are terrible. This is not normal for me.)

I don't think you're being fair or polite to describe or accidentally imply everyone who dislikes Peter Jackson's decisions there as a 'fanatic.'

[Drolyt]

You might like or dislike Tom Bombadil, that's beside the point. But some people put lot of crap on Peter Jackson for omitting that USELESS character from the movie. I call them fanatic.

The character was there to show us that there was some people in the world that could live without a care for those around, and would want any power. Yay. In other world, he was about as important to the narrative as a hilltop, without the strategic importance.

@Droytl

I don't have to be a writer myself to claim that a specific element of a story is useless/pointless. Nor that elements of a story are poorly designed. Claiming that Lord of the Rings's initial writing was written when Tolkien did not had a grasp of the whole picture doesn't take away his literracy genius. It just means that the start of the book is probably its worst element, and probably would have needed some serious editing in a modern world.

Because a character is important to the writer doesn't make it a strong character to the story. I'm glad he had some attachment to Bombadil, but it's still a useless BLAM. The heroes still have to save the world, eh?

He did in fact rewrite those earliest parts to fit in with the rest of the story, it's only the ideas that survived. It's all well and good for you to not like Tom Bombadil or his inclusion in the narrative, but that's your opinion, don't speak for everyone else. I also tend to agree that he did not have a place in the movie, and I have never complained about that (I didn't complain about the movies at all until the Faramir thing). Here, however, is the important part: The Lord of the Rings wasn't about the heroes saving the world. The Hobbits are supposed to be courageous and heroic, examples of what the everyman can do at his best, but in the end The Lord of the Rings drives home the point that the world is larger than any hero, that any one person only plays a small, if inevitably important role in it. Tolkien's worldview, at least that given in The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, is that while evil will remain evil, it is up to every man to continue the good fight, and that in the end evil will be good to have been, because it adds beauty to the world and enriches it with story and song. Those who see The Lord of the Rings as merely heroic fantasy may enjoy the book, but they are missing the point.

[WalkingTarget]

The character was there to show us that there was some people in the world that could live without a care for those around, and would want any power. Yay. In other world, he was about as important to the narrative as a hilltop, without the strategic importance.

[snip]

Because a character is important to the writer doesn't make it a strong character to the story. I'm glad he had some attachment to Bombadil, but it's still a useless BLAM. The heroes still have to save the world, eh?

Tolkien admitted that Bombadil is unimportant to the narrative. The story isn't really helped along for his presence. Yes, he is a character to "show us that there w[ere] some people in the world that could live without... want any power" but also that these people are immune to the Ring's influence. He's there to show the reader the [I]limit of the Ring's power, which then foreshadows Sam's ability to give it up when the time came (due to his wants being so inconsequential in the first place).

The Lord of the Rings has a lot of philosophy built into it, not everything is there just to move the story along. That being said, since the films excised a good portion of the philosophizing, leaving Tom out was the correct move as he would have been a BLAM otherwise.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Tolkien admitted that Bombadil is unimportant to the narrative. The story isn't really helped along for his presence. Yes, he is a character to "show us that there w[ere] some people in the world that could live without... want any power" but also that these people are immune to the Ring's influence. He's there to show the reader the [I]limit of the Ring's power, which then foreshadows Sam's ability to give it up when the time came (due to his wants being so inconsequential in the first place).


The Ring's limited influence on Bombadil is a reflection of Bombadil's limitation.

It's like saying a Flash grenade is limited against a blind person, and you need to put a blind person to the storyline to show it's limitation, and then never ever need that blind person (or the whole point) again after.

[PhoeKun]

No, having a human - flawed, lots on his mind etc. - struggle to that volcano and find the strength to toss it in would have been more meaningful for me, even if that wouldn't have been possible in the mythos.

To me, I think that would make it just another story. While I'm sure that could make for a very interesting read, it's nothing I haven't seen before in... say... Arthurian tales.

Tolkien's world has heroes, with some more flawed than others, but certainly all with a lot on their minds, and they do great things and play a huge part in saving the world. But that it ultimately comes down to a handful of simple folk and a heck of a lot of luck for good to be victorious is always something I've found particularly striking, and has kept me drawn to the books over the years.

And you know, even Sam was tempted by the ring during the brief time he held it, suffering momentary delusions of grandeur when he overhears a pair of orcs marveling at the works of whatever mighty knight Frodo must have been a squire to. It's not like he was incorruptible...

[Drolyt]

The Ring's limited influence on Bombadil is a reflection of Bombadil's limitation.

It's like saying a Flash grenade is limited against a blind person, and you need to put a blind person to the storyline to show it's limitation, and then never ever need that blind person (or the whole point) again after.

No, because the fact that a Flash grenade is limited against a blind person is of no literary or philosophical significance. Tolkien had a very interesting point about power and corruption in the Bombadil chapters.

To me, I think that would make it just another story. While I'm sure that could make for a very interesting read, it's nothing I haven't seen before in... say... Arthurian tales.

Tolkien's world has heroes, with some more flawed than others, but certainly all with a lot on their minds, and they do great things and play a huge part in saving the world. But that it ultimately comes down to a handful of simple folk and a heck of a lot of luck for good to be victorious is always something I've found particularly striking, and has kept me drawn to the books over the years.

And you know, even Sam was tempted by the ring during the brief time he held it, suffering momentary delusions of grandeur when he overhears a pair of orcs marveling at the works of whatever mighty knight Frodo must have been a squire to. It's not like he was incorruptible...
The Point isn't that Sam was incorruptible, or that he didn't want, but that because he was an everyman his friends and his home were more important to him than personal power, so he was able to overcome the ring's influence.

[WalkingTarget]

The Ring's limited influence on Bombadil is a reflection of Bombadil's limitation.

Yeah, Tom is limited. Even if they give him the Ring for safekeeping he will eventually fall. In order for there to be pacifists in a hostile world there must be those willing to fight on their behalf. Pacifism cannot win a war. You don't put the blind guy on a battlefield just because he's immune to a flash grenade.

[Drolyt]

Yeah, Tom is limited. Even if they give him the Ring for safekeeping he will eventually fall. In order for there to be pacifists in a hostile world there must be those willing to fight on their behalf. Pacifism cannot win a war. You don't put the blind guy on a battlefield just because he's immune to a flash grenade.

That's another good point, Tom was representative of an ideal, but Tolkien shows us that ideal wasn't the be all end all. Tom couldn't help them vanquish evil. In the end sacrifice had to be made for that, and Frodo had to give up his innocence so that the rest of the Shire could keep it.

[SolkaTruesilver]

No, because the fact that a Flash grenade is limited against a blind person is of no literary or philosophical significance. Tolkien had a very interesting point about power and corruption in the Bombadil chapters.


It could be, if the writer wanted to. Bombadil was blind to power, and so good for him. Effectively, what is said was:

"In order to be immune from the Ring's influence, you must have no stake int he world's fate"

He had no stake in the world's fate, so he didn't cared about the ring. He cared about nothing.

A good way Tolkien could have used Bombadil would have been having the hobbit visit him back at the end of their journey, after all they've been trough. They would see how much the journey has changed them, using Bombadil as a still point, and it would have justified their badass attitude in the final fight to free the Shire. "Look where we have come from.. wow".

Not only it would have totally justified Bombadil's initial apperance, it would have also been a great psychological points for the Hobbits, as the Shire stopped being what it was, they couldn't compared themselves to it anymore to see their personnal progress.

[Zevox]

Hobbits themselves were slowly turning into humans though, no?
Actually, the reverse. What little there is on the origins of Hobbits in Tolkien's world suggest they were descended from a branch of Humanity.


It could be, if the writer wanted to. Bombadil was blind to power, and so good for him. Effectively, what is said was:

"In order to be immune from the Ring's influence, you must have no stake int he world's fate"

He had no stake in the world's fate, so he didn't cared about the ring. He cared about nothing.
No, Bombadil had a stake in the world's fate. Remember that Elrond, at the Council, mentioned that though Bombadil would fall last of all if Sauron got the Ring, he nonetheless would fall. He simply did not care about power - he had no desire for it, and thus the ring could not tempt him, and indeed had no power over him.

Zevox

[PhoeKun]

The Point isn't that Sam was incorruptible, or that he didn't want, but that because he was an everyman his friends and his home were more important to him than personal power, so he was able to overcome the ring's influence.

I recognize that. I was addressing what I perceived to be a complaint about Sam's giving up the ring being unmemorable because there was nothing he could be tempted with other than pipeweed.

And I was saying, that's not true at all. So it's all the more special when he decides he doesn't need those sorts of things, even if he does realize he wants them.

[SolkaTruesilver]

No, Bombadil had a stake in the world's fate. Remember that Elrond, at the Council, mentioned that though Bombadil would fall last of all if Sauron got the Ring, he nonetheless would fall. He simply did not care about power - he had no desire for it, and thus the ring could not tempt him, and indeed had no power over him.


But he still doesn't care about it.

[Optimystik]

"In order to be immune from the Ring's influence, you must have no stake int he world's fate"

He had no stake in the world's fate, so he didn't cared about the ring. He cared about nothing.

That isn't fair either. If he had no stake, why would he save the hobbits' lives - twice? Especially knowing what they carried, and how dangerous it could be?

[SolkaTruesilver]

That isn't fair either. If he had no stake, why would he save the hobbits' lives - twice? Especially knowing what they carried, and how dangerous it could be?

Because he's a nice guy.

[Drolyt]

It could be, if the writer wanted to. Bombadil was blind to power, and so good for him. Effectively, what is said was:

"In order to be immune from the Ring's influence, you must have no stake int he world's fate"

He had no stake in the world's fate, so he didn't cared about the ring. He cared about nothing.


That is a fair interpretation of Bombadil. There, you just gave Bombadil a purpose. Your analysis (however critical) can help us learn a little more about the world.

I recognize that. I was addressing what I perceived to be a complaint about Sam's giving up the ring being unmemorable because there was nothing he could be tempted with other than pipeweed.

And I was saying, that's not true at all. So it's all the more special when he decides he doesn't need those sorts of things, even if he does realize he wants them.
I wasn't disagreeing with you.

That isn't fair either. If he had no stake, why would he save the hobbits' lives - twice? Especially knowing what they carried, and how dangerous it could be?

Because he's a nice guy.
This is actually pretty true. You can be a nice guy who helps people without actually caring about the fate of the world or trying to do good in it. I know plenty of "nice guys" who don't do anything to make the world a better place. So it is possible Bombadil would help the Hobbits even if he had not stake in their quest. Do note that Elrond never stated that Sauron could destroy Bombadil, only that there would be nothing left for Bombadil. That could mean Bombadil would simply leave middle-earth or even Arda if Sauron won (since we don't know what kind of being Tom is, it is possible that he was not bound to Arda and could just leave if he wanted to).

[Dienekes]

Tom is a bit of world building. Now, I can understand his appeal or lack thereof to some people but Tolkien was foremost a world builder and as such tom fit rather well in the story Tolkien was telling. His existence was a display of the ideal of power without corruption and want and it's limitations. This was not to say that Tom didn't care about things, he did. He cared for his wife, his lands, his friends. And if the ring was given to him he would protect it to the best of his ability, which unfortunately would be to forget about it eventually.

That said, he does not sufficiently add to the story arc for some people who apparently don't like this sort of philosophizing. I personally don't understand why, but there it is. And as to the movie, it is an understandable part to cut.

[hamishspence]

Do note that Elrond never stated that Sauron could destroy Bombadil, only that there would be nothing left for Bombadil. That could mean Bombadil would simply leave middle-earth or even Arda if Sauron won (since we don't know what kind of being Tom is, it is possible that he was not bound to Arda and could just leave if he wanted to).

Elrond wasn't the one saying what would happen to Bombadil- Glorfindel was. His precise phrasing:

"But in any case," said Glorfindel, "to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First, and then Night will come."

[Drolyt]

Elrond wasn't the one saying what would happen to Bombadil- Glorfindel was. His precise phrasing:

"But in any case," said Glorfindel, "to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First, and then Night will come."

I think my memory was mixing up different things, but that is in fact the correct quote. I believe the quote about there being nothing left for him actually wasn't in the Lord of the Rings, but in one of Tokien's letters about Tom (even back then Tolkien had to defend his inclusion), but I'm not sure. Maybe my unconscious made it up.

[hamishspence]

Possibly- its been a while since I read the Letters (I've only ever read them once) or the History of Middle Earth books (I haven't read them in depth).

[WalkingTarget]

I think my memory was mixing up different things, but that is in fact the correct quote. I believe the quote about there being nothing left for him actually wasn't in the Lord of the Rings, but in one of Tokien's letters about Tom (even back then Tolkien had to defend his inclusion), but I'm not sure. Maybe my unconscious made it up.

Yeah, that was from a letter.

Edit - Bombadil's Wikipedia page even quotes it. "It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war… the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron."

[hamishspence]

And you know, even Sam was tempted by the ring during the brief time he held it, suffering momentary delusions of grandeur when he overhears a pair of orcs marveling at the works of whatever mighty knight Frodo must have been a squire to. It's not like he was incorruptible...

His Moment Of Tempation comes a bit after that- not when he puts it on, but after he's taken it off and is thinking of putting it on again. While listening to the Orcs (with the Ring on), he simply smiles grimly at the overblown description:


"You may well put your thinking cap on, if you've got one. It's no laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin into Shelob before, as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think- there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege. Something has slipped."
"And what is it then?" Shagrat growled.
"By all the signs, Captain Shagrat, I'd say there's a large warrior loose, Elf most likely, with an elf-sword anyway, and an axe as well maybe; and he's loose in your bounds too, and you've never spotted him. Very funny indeed!" Gorbag spat. Sam smiled grimly at this description of himself.

[Optimystik]

I do remember that, and it doesn't sound much like Sam was being tempted to me.

And again I say - they had a racial bonus to their save (for lack of better terminology) - kind of removes some of the sense of danger for me.

[Drolyt]

I do remember that, and it doesn't sound much like Sam was being tempted to me.

And again I say - they had a racial bonus to their save (for lack of better terminology) - kind of removes some of the sense of danger for me.

The ring is powered by plot, you don't get a save (otherwise stronger people should resist it better). I mean Frodo and Smeagol both succumbed to the ring, so why is it not an achievement for Sam to resist the temptation? Why do people think something isn't an accomplishment if you don't struggle? Would, for example, winning an Olympic medal be more of an accomplishment if it was harder for you as opposed to if you were a prodigy?

[Jan Mattys]

Hobbits are simple people, taking joy in simple things. That's why they are so resilient to magic.

But they are not immune. And Sam was able to resist simply because he carried the Ring for a VERY SHORT time.

The only two people who had the strenght to willingly pass the Ring were Bilbo (with Gandalf's help) and Sam... I'd say the more memorable moment is Bilbo's. He carried the Ring for years, and still managed to simply abandon the Ring.

Sam is the true hero of the LoTR, but managing to avoid temptation after having carried the Ring for just a couple hours, even in Mordor, where the Ring is more powerful, doesn't really strike me as an incredible feat.

[factotum]

He remembers "the first raindrop and the first acorn" and "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

However, weren't the stars created by one of the Vala?

[magellan]

While TVtropes is of course a completely useless collection of random fanboy rambling, Bombadil does serve some minor plot points. He showed how naive the hobbits were, having to save their lives while walking through a forest and down a hill. Having them visit him on the return journey would have added nothing. The Hobbits knew already that they had "leveled up" during the campaign.
So: are they minor plotpoints? Yes. Are they none at all? No.

Of course the whole "Give Ring to X" plothole isn't one either, since it is very explicit in the book, (and also quite clear in the movies) that if you give the Ring to somebody powerful, it will want to keep him. It's less you resisting the ring, it's more It letting you off the hook.

Edit to add:
I mean seriously, look at these examples for a so called "BLAM":


Gremlins 2: #Firstly, we have the scene where Leonard Maltin appears in a broadcasting TV studio, reviewing the first Gremlins film. He criticizes its Comedic Sociopathy (specifically, how it makes light of people being horribly killed by Gremlins). He is then eaten by a pack of the creatures and from there on the movie continues along its merry, messed up way.

Next, during a talking scene a pair of Gremlins actually take control of the movie, tearing out the film and doing shadow animals with the projector light. And then there's a weird scene of the manager of a movie theatre pulling Hulk Hogan out of the audience and persuading him to intimidate the Gremlins into returning the film to its original plot.



Running Man:
In The Film Of The Book The Running Man, the Stalker "Dynamo" uses electricity for his gimmick. So when he makes his grand entrance, he sings the aria from Act Three of "The Marriage of Figaro".


... So I take it Alex listening to Beethoven in Clockwork Orange is a BLAM too?

[frogspawner]

And Sam was able to resist simply because he carried the Ring for a VERY SHORT time. ... Sam is the true hero of the LoTR, but managing to avoid temptation after having carried the Ring for just a couple hours, even in Mordor, where the Ring is more powerful, doesn't really strike me as an incredible feat.
Sam resisted? He set out a nice, simple guy and when he came back became a politician! :smallyuk: :smallwink:

[Drolyt]

Sam resisted? He set out a nice, simple guy and when he came back became a politician! :smallyuk: :smallwink:

Yes, but a Mayor. In old timey England that was the one position you can trust (see: The guy who came to London with his cat), so it gets a free pass. Now if he were a minister...

As a side note when Gandalf first told Frodo about the ring Frodo had not so much as touched it yet and he could not throw it into a fireplace willingly. Bilbo's moment was of course at least comparable to Sam's, and I have to give those two characters kudos for being the only characters from LotR not to set off Firefox's spellcheck, (although apparently the spellcheck thinks spellcheck is misspelled). I think what makes Sam's moment so triumphant is that he wasn't really all that important. He wasn't the one chosen for the quest or anything. He's just an everyman. Bilbo is the hero of another story, of course he would give up the ring. And it took Bilbo a lot of help; Sam did it all by himself.

[hamishspence]

And he gave it up after having put it on- more than once- on the outskirts of Mordor.

[factotum]

As a side note when Gandalf first told Frodo about the ring Frodo had not so much as touched it yet

You sure about that? I thought it said that Frodo *did* occasionally use it in the 18 years or so between Bilbo giving it up and Gandalf telling him the story.

[Optimystik]

The ring is powered by plot, you don't get a save (otherwise stronger people should resist it better). I mean Frodo and Smeagol both succumbed to the ring, so why is it not an achievement for Sam to resist the temptation? Why do people think something isn't an accomplishment if you don't struggle? Would, for example, winning an Olympic medal be more of an accomplishment if it was harder for you as opposed to if you were a prodigy?

Yes, it should. A handicapped person winning an Olympic medal is more of an achievement, thank you very much. A handicapped person doing so in a regular competition, even more so.

I recall the Cleric Quintet by R.A. Salvatore - I was flat-out rooting for Pikel to become the first Dwarven druid, just because the odds were so far against him doing so. This was naturally halfway between 2e and 3e.


Hobbits are simple people, taking joy in simple things. That's why they are so resilient to magic.

But they are not immune. And Sam was able to resist simply because he carried the Ring for a VERY SHORT time.

That's just the problem - we can't be sure of that. And as was pointed out earlier in this thread, Sam was a very simple man even for a hobbit - whereas Frodo was basically one of the Big Cheeses of The Shire, thanks to Bilbo's fortune.

[Jan Mattys]

That's just the problem - we can't be sure of that. And as was pointed out earlier in this thread, Sam was a very simple man even for a hobbit - whereas Frodo was basically one of the Big Cheeses of The Shire, thanks to Bilbo's fortune.

Want proof that even the simplest Hobbits are not immune to the Ring effects?
Gollum.

As far as I knkow, Smeagol was nothing special.

So there. :smallwink:

[Optimystik]

Want proof that even the simplest Hobbits are not immune to the Ring effects?
Gollum.

As far as I knkow, Smeagol was nothing special.

So there. :smallwink:

Except Smeagol wanted the ring the minute he saw it, and Sam never did.

So there.:smallsigh:

[Drolyt]

Except Smeagol wanted the ring the minute he saw it, and Sam never did.

So there.:smallsigh:

But there is nothing to suggest that Smeagol was especially greedy before he got the ring. The only thing we can safely conclude is that Smeagol and the person he was with were both enchanted by the ring the moment they saw it. Seriously, within a few days of getting the ring from Gollum Bilbo was lying about how he got, it is clear that it works fast.

[Optimystik]

But there is nothing to suggest that Smeagol was especially greedy before he got the ring. The only thing we can safely conclude is that Smeagol and the person he was with were both enchanted by the ring the moment they saw it. Seriously, within a few days of getting the ring from Gollum Bilbo was lying about how he got, it is clear that it works fast.

That reinforces my point - Bilbo was the wealthy socialite overcome with ennui - Sam, the hardworking, simple salt of the earth. Bilbo did begin to be tempted by the Ring quite quickly, but that does not prove Samwise would have.

[Jan Mattys]

That reinforces my point - Bilbo was the wealthy socialite overcome with ennui - Sam, the hardworking, simple salt of the earth. Bilbo did begin to be tempted by the Ring quite quickly, but that does not prove Samwise would have.

"All right, Mr. Frodo," said Sam, rather startled. "Here it is!" Slowly he drew the Ring out and passed the chain over his head. "But you're in the land of Mordor now, sir; and when you get out, you'll see the Fiery Mountain and all. You'll find the Ring very dangerous now, and very hard to bear. If it's too hard a job, I could share it with you, maybe?"

After only a few hours, even Sam suggests some time-sharing. Nothing seems to suggest that it's just loving care for Frodo, but nothing suggests the opposite too. That could be a very mild and insinuating effect of the Ring.

[Drolyt]

"All right, Mr. Frodo," said Sam, rather startled. "Here it is!" Slowly he drew the Ring out and passed the chain over his head. "But you're in the land of Mordor now, sir; and when you get out, you'll see the Fiery Mountain and all. You'll find the Ring very dangerous now, and very hard to bear. If it's too hard a job, I could share it with you, maybe?"

After only a few hours, even Sam suggests some time-sharing. Nothing seems to suggest that it's just loving care for Frodo, but nothing suggests the opposite too. That could be a very mild and insinuating effect of the Ring.

It's quite possible the ring could work that subtle. It could create desire for it in your heart you didn't even know was there by disguising it as something else, like the desire to help your friend. Wasn't that part of Gandalf's fear? The ring would convince him he was doing good, but in fact he would be doing evil.

[Optimystik]

Certainly, it could be that insidious. But it still would have been a much slower process than with Frodo, because it has less to work with.

Since Frodo failed right at the cusp of the volcano, logically Sam would have made it all the way before being subverted. I never said he was immune, just more resistant.

[Drolyt]

Certainly, it could be that insidious. But it still would have been a much slower process than with Frodo, because it has less to work with.

Since Frodo failed right at the cusp of the volcano, logically Sam would have made it all the way before being subverted. I never said he was immune, just more resistant.

What was this thread originally about? I really don't remember. Anyways, I think the only way to be immune to the ring is to have no desire whatsoever like Bombadil. Other than that if your personal power was greater than that of the ring you would be effectively immune, but no normal human or elf would be immune to the ring's power, they could only resist it, and then not forever.

[Optimystik]

What was this thread originally about? I really don't remember.

I think it was something along the lines of "why didn't Sauron use his Palantir to find the Ring," but hamish pointed out that they do not work that way good night.

Sorry, Morbo couldn't resist. :smalltongue:


Anyways, I think the only way to be immune to the ring is to have no desire whatsoever like Bombadil. Other than that if your personal power was greater than that of the ring you would be effectively immune, but no normal human or elf would be immune to the ring's power, they could only resist it, and then not forever.

Yes - I'm sure eventually Sam would have been haunted with images of Rosie or somesuch - but I definitely believe he would have held up under it longer than Frodo. Giving the cursed artifact to the guy with the higher will and fort saves is usually a given is all I'm saying.

[Dacia Brabant]

I always think Isildur gets an overly bad press too (even in the book). I mean, he destroyed Sauron's physical form!

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not in the thread, but Isildur was not in fact the one who took down Sauron. It was his father Elendil, and Gil-Galad the last High King of the exiled Noldor, who did it and they both died in the process. Isildur "cut the ring from Sauron's hand" but, unlike what's shown in the film's prologue that's not what actually destroyed his physical form.

[Drolyt]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not in the thread, but Isildur was not in fact the one who took down Sauron. It was his father Elendil, and Gil-Galad the last High King of the exiled Noldor, who did it and they both died in the process. Isildur "cut the ring from Sauron's hand" but, unlike what's shown in the film's prologue that's not what actually destroyed his physical form.

It's not entirely clear that his "physical form" was ever destroyed. For all we know there is still a body somewhere, it's not made entirely clear how Ainur's bodies work. At any rate you are correct, and I don't think it was mentioned yet, but all Isildur did was cut the ring off the guys finger. It's not clear whether Sauron was defeated or just knocked out at that point though, perhaps if Isildur didn't take the ring he would've recovered.

[WalkingTarget]

Yes - I'm sure eventually Sam would have been haunted with images of Rosie or somesuch - but I definitely believe he would have held up under it longer than Frodo. Giving the cursed artifact to the guy with the higher will and fort saves is usually a given is all I'm saying.

In one of his letters, Tolkien said "I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist..."

At the Crack of Doom itself, it is not within the ability of mortals (at the least) to willingly give up the Ring. It is literally irresistible. Sam may have been able to hold out longer than Frodo, but Frodo still got as far as anybody could be expected to go before "failing".

[Optimystik]

In one of his letters, Tolkien said "I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist..."

At the Crack of Doom itself, it is not within the ability of mortals (at the least) to willingly give up the Ring. It is literally irresistible. Sam may have been able to hold out longer than Frodo, but Frodo still got as far as anybody could be expected to go before "failing".

So, regardless of the restraint the Bearer has exercised beforehand, upon reaching the Crack his attitude toward the Ring instantly shifts to Fanatic?

Can anyone say fiat :smalltongue:

[Drolyt]

So, regardless of the restraint the Bearer has exercised beforehand, upon reaching the Crack his attitude toward the Ring instantly shifts to Fanatic?

Can anyone say fiat :smalltongue:

I don't know about fiat. Perhaps you could argue Tokien was underestimating the human spirit.

[WalkingTarget]

So, regardless of the restraint the Bearer has exercised beforehand, upon reaching the Crack his attitude toward the Ring instantly shifts to Fanatic?

Can anyone say fiat :smalltongue:

Yeah, pretty much. I don't really see a problem with that given the way the Ring is presented.

There's Isildur as the other example we have: :smallfurious: This guy's forces, over the last 10 years of war, killed my brother and a large number of my friends/subjects after suckering our old country into committing suicide-by-deity and he personally just killed my dad. Time to break his little trinket I just picked up... Oooo, shiny. On second thought, I'll take this as the death price owed for my brother and father. :smallcool:

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not in the thread, but Isildur was not in fact the one who took down Sauron. It was his father Elendil, and Gil-Galad the last High King of the exiled Noldor, who did it and they both died in the process. Isildur "cut the ring from Sauron's hand" but, unlike what's shown in the film's prologue that's not what actually destroyed his physical form.


The Silmarillion- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:


Then Gild-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anarion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible form again for many long years.

Also, there is Isildur's "Was it not I who dealt the Enemy his death blow?" comment, in the same book.

Whether or not it was Elendil and Gil-galad that actually took Sauron down, a case can be made that it was Isildur who took him out of action by cutting away the Ring.

In Unfinished Tales, we see a slightly humbler, wiser Isildur. We also find it that putting the ring on, even over a year after Sauron's death, is very painful.

[WalkingTarget]

Whethere or not it was Elendil and Gil-galad that actually took Sauron down, a case can be made that it was Isildur who took him out of action by cutting away the Ring.

I generally operate under the assumption that he was done fighting, but could have swung a Monty Python-esque "I got better" trick if the Ring had been left on him but he had to start over from scratch without it. As you say, a case can be made either way.

[hamishspence]

Might have been interesting if the movie writers had followed an approach slightly closer to the book- Sauron should at the very least be on the ground when Isildur strikes, even if you're going with the interpretation that he is still healthy and able to get up- just temporarily stunned.

Also- if Gil-galad had actually made an appearance, and been killed by Sauron's scorchingly hot hand:

(LoTR: The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed)

and if Isildur had been scorched by the Ring on picking it up:

(It was hot when I took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it)

it might have been more satisfying.

[Optimystik]

I don't know about fiat. Perhaps you could argue Tokien was underestimating the human spirit.

I have done just that, in this very thread, and criticized Tolkien for it.

[Drolyt]

Might have been interesting if the movie writers had followed an approach slightly closer to the book- Sauron should at the very least be on the ground when Isildur strikes, even if you're going with the interpretation that he is still healthy and able to get up- just temporarily stunned.

Also- if Gil-galad had actually made an appearance, and been killed by Sauron's scorchingly hot hand:

(LoTR: The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed)

and if Isildur had been scorched by the Ring on picking it up:

(It was hot when I took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it)

it might have been more satisfying.

Does that quote mean Sauron cast Burning Hands?

I have done just that, in this very thread, and criticized Tolkien for it.
Tolkien was somewhat cynical. He apparently rejected the idea of a sequel to the Lord of the Rings because he thought that after Aragorn's death everything would go down hill, due to the fact that Humans are Bastards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards). At any rate this was to be expected from a guy who apparently lost all his close friends during the First World War, and lived to see their deaths prove in vain during the Second.

[Dacia Brabant]

Whether or not it was Elendil and Gil-galad that actually took Sauron down, a case can be made that it was Isildur who took him out of action by cutting away the Ring.

That is a good point. I was basing my statement on the line in the Tale of Years (Appendix B to LotR) for Year 3441: "Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring." But then right after that it does say "Sauron passes away" so it's definitely possible that losing the ring is what finally (if temporarily) sent his spirit to the netherworld. Still, the two kings deserve their fair share of the credit.


Tolkien was somewhat cynical. He apparently rejected the idea of a sequel to the Lord of the Rings because he thought that after Aragorn's death everything would go down hill, due to the fact that Humans are Bastards. At any rate this was to be expected from a guy who apparently lost all his close friends during the First World War, and lived to see their deaths prove in vain during the Second.

It also had a lot to do with his view that English culture, society and traditions were falling apart. Whether those views have any merit or not I'm not going to argue (mostly because those are banned topics here), but one of his main reasons for writing his books was so some things wouldn't completely pass away out of the culture.

[Drolyt]

That is a good point. I was basing my statement on the line in the Tale of Years (Appendix B to LotR) for Year 3441: "Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring." But then right after that it does say "Sauron passes away" so it's definitely possible that losing the ring is what finally (if temporarily) sent his spirit to the netherworld. Still, the two kings deserve their fair share of the credit.



It also had a lot to do with his view that English culture, society and traditions were falling apart. Whether those views have any merit or not I'm not going to argue (mostly because those are banned topics here), but one of his main reasons for writing his books was so some things wouldn't completely pass away out of the culture.

Another thing is that he wasn't fond of industrialization and the destruction of nature, as well as various other things, but as you said we can't really discuss that here. At any rate his works strike me as written by someone who by nature believed good triumphed in the end but who had, because of life experiences, become somewhat cynical. There is a deep and profound sadness in the Lord of the Rings as the old and beautiful passes away, but in the end the work is optimistic: The Shire is saved, Gondor once again has a king, and evil is vanquished for a time. Life goes on, and Tokien was, I believe, optimistic, if not exactly idealistic. Like I posted earlier I think that Tokien's philosophy was that everything will turn out to be for the good in the end, but after reading The History of Middle-Earth and his Letters as well as various biographical information it seems to me that it must have been very hard for him to keep those beliefs at times.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The ring is powered by plot, you don't get a save (otherwise stronger people should resist it better).

The ring's save DC is:

10 + (3x CL) + Circumstances

Circumstances: Evil: +10
Neutral: +5

Wizard: +15
Hobbit: -15

I am sure you could add a distance from Mount Doom modifier...

In short, I always saw that the most powerful you were, the harder it was to resist its lure. Which is why Isildur, Boromir and co. fell to it's lure, while not the Hobbits.

[Drolyt]

The ring's save DC is:

10 + (3x CL) + Circumstances

Circumstances: Evil: +10
Neutral: +5

Wizard: +15
Hobbit: -15

I am sure you could add a distance from Mount Doom modifier...

In short, I always saw that the most powerful you were, the harder it was to resist its lure. Which is why Isildur, Boromir and co. fell to it's lure, while not the Hobbits.

Let's see, to beat the ring as a 20th level character you should take a different class each level, each one contributing to the save you have to make for the ring (probably will). 20 different classes with +2s would net you a total of +40 to your save. You would also need to get 18 wisdom at first level, play a Halfling (aka Hobbit), increase your wisdom 5 times and read a book to increase it five more, and finally wear a +6 to wisdom item, for a total of 34 Wisdom, or +12, and another +1 from Halfling. Finally get a Cloak of Resistance +5, for a total of +58 to your save. A good character would only have a 55 for his DC this way, succeeding on anything but a 1. Of course your character would suck having taken nothing but classes and prestige classes that give +2 will at first level, but even such a poorly built 20th level DnD character could probably solo all of LotR.

Edit: Actually if at least one of the classes was Cleric and you managed to find 15 prestige classes that give you +2 will and increase Cleric spellcasting at first level you could easily create an uber tank that would own all of LotR easily. I'd go Wizard but I don't want to have to increase the save DC by 15.
Edit 2: Also Take Iron will for an additional +2, to help buffer against any other circumstance modifiers. You could also do Sorc instead of Cleric if your DM ruled they didn't count as Wizards.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Let's see, to beat the ring as a 20th level character you should take a different class each level, each one contributing to the save you have to make for the ring (probably will). 20 different classes with +2s would net you a total of +40 to your save. You would also need to get 18 wisdom at first level, play a Halfling (aka Hobbit), increase your wisdom 5 times and read a book to increase it five more, and finally wear a +6 to wisdom item, for a total of 34 Wisdom, or +12, and another +1 from Halfling. Finally get a Cloak of Resistance +5, for a total of +58 to your save. A good character would only have a 55 for his DC this way, succeeding on anything but a 1. Of course your character would suck having taken nothing but classes and prestige classes that give +2 will at first level, but even such a poorly built 20th level DnD character could probably solo all of LotR.

What do you mean, "solo all of LotR"?

I don't think Tolkien would allow powergamers to his story. They are the antithesis of a good story.

Or, instead of "Wizards", put "Spellcaster"

[Drolyt]

What do you mean, "solo all of LotR"?

I don't think Tolkien would allow powergamers to his story. They are the antithesis of a good story.

Or, instead of "Wizards", put "Spellcaster"

Shoot, most good Will save classes are spellcasters (which actually makes no sense). Let's see, there's still monk... I think that's the only one in the PHB. Well, you would need to assemble at least 5 base classes with good will saves and then 15 different PRCs with good will saves but no spellcasting, but the latter is actually pretty easy with all the Monk PRCs.
Edit: By solo all of LotR I mean if there were for some strange reason a DnD LotR crossover where the Ring worked as you describe. A 20th level character is easily beyond any magic described in the books, even the Valar are less powerful than a 20th level Wizard.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Shoot, most good Will save classes are spellcasters (which actually makes no sense). Let's see, there's still monk... I think that's the only one in the PHB. Well, you would need to assemble at least 5 base classes with good will saves and then 15 different PRCs with good will saves but no spellcasting, but the latter is actually pretty easy with all the Monk PRCs.
Edit: By solo all of LotR I mean if there were for some strange reason a DnD LotR crossover where the Ring worked as you describe. A 20th level character is easily beyond any magic described in the books, even the Valar are less powerful than a 20th level Wizard.

You still don't get all of the fancy magic items, my good friend.

Oh, and no wizards, remember?

[Drolyt]

You still don't get all of the fancy magic items, my good friend.

Oh, and no wizards, remember?

Without spellcasters the Valar are probably stronger than a 20th level character, but even a 20th level monk could defeat Sauron. Actually, now that I think about it no spellcasting variant Paladin would boost those will saves up a bit. I think an Uber Charger Build would work for killing Sauron? Bonus points for Uber Charger builds being workable with almost any class. Although he would need pounce...

[SolkaTruesilver]

Without spellcasters the Valar are probably stronger than a 20th level character, but even a 20th level monk could defeat Sauron. Actually, now that I think about it no spellcasting variant Paladin would boost those will saves up a bit. I think an Uber Charger Build would work for killing Sauron? Bonus points for Uber Charger builds being workable with almost any class.

Where do you get such arrogant notion that a level 20 monk can defeat Sauron?

[Drolyt]

Where do you get such arrogant notion that a level 20 monk can defeat Sauron?

Well, Balors are CR 20, and Balors = Balrogs, so if the Monk were optimized he could take a Balrog. Although optimizing a Monk almost implicitly means not going to 20th level, but that's besides the point. Anyways I can't imagine Sauron is that many CRs beyond a Balrog, especially without his ring.

[KnightDisciple]

...Yeah, first, LotR isn't meant for conversion to tabletop gaming. At all.

Second, Sauron likely has a lot of inherent abilities that aren't in DnD.

Third...really, this is just silly. I mean, really? :smallconfused: Kind of missing the point, right?

[warty goblin]

Ain't no way a monk is taking down Sauron, at least in his second age incarnation. Remember this is the dude with such a high body temperature he can kill by touch alone. Good luck punching that one to death.

Also, the texts are unclear, but IIRC the Silmarilion describes Sauron as 'wrestling' with Gil-Galad and Elendil.

[Drolyt]

Ain't no way a monk is taking down Sauron, at least in his second age incarnation. Remember this is the dude with such a high body temperature he can kill by touch alone. Good luck punching that one to death.

Also, the texts are unclear, but IIRC the Silmarilion describes Sauron as 'wrestling' with Gil-Galad and Elendil.

The word wrestling is used, but it's not clear it meant actual, you know, wrestling as opposed to a poetic way of saying "they fought". Tolkien liked to keep things poetic.

...Yeah, first, LotR isn't meant for conversion to tabletop gaming. At all.

Second, Sauron likely has a lot of inherent abilities that aren't in DnD.

Third...really, this is just silly. I mean, really? Kind of missing the point, right?
Fair enough. Time to Re-Rail. Although I think we changed tracks about five times already, so I'm not sure which ones we are going back to.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Well, Balors are CR 20, and Balors = Balrogs, so if the Monk were optimized he could take a Balrog. Although optimizing a Monk almost implicitly means not going to 20th level, but that's besides the point. Anyways I can't imagine Sauron is that many CRs beyond a Balrog, especially without his ring.

Hum.. Fallacies involved:

1) Balor = Balrog. It's not the care. One is inspired from the other, but that's about it.

2) 20th level monk taking on a Balrog? Let me laugh!

3) Sauron is not that many CRs beyond a Balrog? Let me laugh! And how can a 20th Level Monk is supposed to "easily" take down an epic-level daemons?

And, as said earlier, it's kinda missing the point. Optimizing is horrible for storytelling purposed, which is why in my mind, Gandalf is the perfect mythical wizard, while D&D wizards are just the equivalent of a Christian Bale movie to Lord of the Ring.

If you want good storytelling wizards, I'd suggest you go into WFRP 2nd edition, you have very thematic wizards. But even then, it's sometimes a little broken by freaking powergamers.

[Drolyt]

Hum.. Fallacies involved:

1) Balor = Balrog. It's not the care. One is inspired from the other, but that's about it.

2) 20th level monk taking on a Balrog? Let me laugh!

3) Sauron is not that many CRs beyond a Balrog? Let me laugh! And how can a 20th Level Monk is supposed to "easily" take down an epic-level daemons?

And, as said earlier, it's kinda missing the point. Optimizing is horrible for storytelling purposed, which is why in my mind, Gandalf is the perfect mythical wizard, while D&D wizards are just the equivalent of a Christian Bale movie to Lord of the Ring.

If you want good storytelling wizards, I'd suggest you go into WFRP 2nd edition, you have very thematic wizards. But even then, it's sometimes a little broken by freaking powergamers.

You know, I was joking. Anyways it's more or less a fact that D&D Wizards are more powerful than 99% of fantasy Wizards, cause D&D isn't about storytelling so much as wish fulfillment. Anyways we should probably re-rail.

[SolkaTruesilver]

You know, I was joking. Anyways it's more or less a fact that D&D Wizards are more powerful than 99% of fantasy Wizards, cause D&D isn't about storytelling so much as wish fulfillment. Anyways we should probably re-rail.

And how do you suggest we do that? We have derailed HOURS ago! We are lost in the middle of nowhere! It's gonna take hours to find the proper rails again. I say we keep looking forward, or we stay put and wait for help.

[Drolyt]

And how do you suggest we do that? We have derailed HOURS ago! We are lost in the middle of nowhere! It's gonna take hours to find the proper rails again. I say we keep looking forward, or we stay put and wait for help.

Well, just look for the closest rails somehow remotely related to the thread's topic. Let's see, plot holes in LotR... well, why didn't Gandalf realize Bilbo had the one ring way back when he first got it? In Shadow of the Past he mentions that he first started to suspect in the same year when the White Council drove the shadow from Mirkwood, but that would mean the same year Bilbo found the ring! Now he said that it was clear from the beginning that Bilbo had a Great Ring, but all the others were accounted for. What was Gandalf thinking? Also, how did he not manage to mention it to anybody else for all those years?

[warty goblin]

Well, just look for the closest rails somehow remotely related to the thread's topic. Let's see, plot holes in LotR... well, why didn't Gandalf realize Bilbo had the one ring way back when he first got it? In Shadow of the Past he mentions that he first started to suspect in the same year when the White Council drove the shadow from Mirkwood, but that would mean the same year Bilbo found the ring! Now he said that it was clear from the beginning that Bilbo had a Great Ring, but all the others were accounted for. What was Gandalf thinking? Also, how did he not manage to mention it to anybody else for all those years?

IIRC when the White Council drove the Necromancer out of Mirkwood he began to suspect that the Necromancer was, in fact, Sauron, not that Bilbo had a Great Ring.

[snoopy13a]

Where do you get such arrogant notion that a level 20 monk can defeat Sauron?

Maybe because Sauron got defeated by a dog :smalltongue: ?

[SolkaTruesilver]

IIRC when the White Council drove the Necromancer out of Mirkwood he began to suspect that the Necromancer was, in fact, Sauron, not that Bilbo had a Great Ring.

Why did it took so long for the White Council to take on the Necromancer?

I mean, even if it was a Nazgul, you still want it begone, no?

[Drolyt]

Why did it took so long for the White Council to take on the Necromancer?

I mean, even if it was a Nazgul, you still want it begone, no?

Actually, that one was explained. Sauruman delayed them for his own purposes.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Actually, that one was explained. Sauruman delayed them for his own purposes.

Why? Was it after he actually started to be influenced by Sauron?

[Drolyt]

IIRC when the White Council drove the Necromancer out of Mirkwood he began to suspect that the Necromancer was, in fact, Sauron, not that Bilbo had a Great Ring.


'When did I first begin to guess?' he mused, searching back in memory. 'Let me see - it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first.


Why? Was it after he actually started to be influenced by Sauron?
No. Even before Sauron influenced him Saruman had decided on taking the ring for himself, and because he though the ring was still in the river he tried to delay the council so he could search for it unhindered, which he could not do if the good guys controlled that area. He only relented when he became convinced the ring was no longer in that area.

[Dacia Brabant]

Gandalf didn't suspect that the Necromancer was Sauron, he knew it was Sauron--he "braved the dungeons of Dol Guldur" and discovered that, along with getting the key to the Lonely Mountain from Thrain who was prisoner there. The Council did finally attack Dol Guldur because Gandalf discovered Sauron was there, but it was too late thanks, as has been said, to Saruman.

Also, it was Saruman's persuasiveness that "the ruling ring had been washed out to sea" that made Gandalf set aside his private suspicions of what the ring truly was. So not a plot hole.


Why? Was it after he actually started to be influenced by Sauron?

Saruman had been a greedy putz for a long long time, probably as far back as when he took Orthanc as his fortress. He coveted the ring and believed it still was out there somewhere, and so he wanted Sauron to become active again in order for the ring to eventually show itself so he could grab it.

Oh right, and he wanted to be able to search the shores of Anduin without arousing suspicion, that too.

[warty goblin]

Why did it took so long for the White Council to take on the Necromancer?

I mean, even if it was a Nazgul, you still want it begone, no?

Also I'm fairly sure driving out evil wizards isn't something you just do on a whim, it probably takes planning. Given the speed of communication in Middle Earth, I'd imagine setting that sort of thing up could be a real pain, as the following exchange of fictitious letters demonstrate.

Dear White Council,
I would be happy to drive the Necromancer out with you. However Saturday the 24th of July is a bad day for me. There's an eagle hatch supposed to be going on that week, and I'd like to be here for that. Is sometime in late August any better for you?
Sincerely, Rhadagast.

Dear White Council,
Well, if July's out, I'm afraid I'm unavailable until at least September. I've gotta start breeding the Uruk- I mean conduct importanting non-postponable research of an indefinite nature.
Saruman.

Dear White Council,
September's no good for me. I've got that entire month scheduled for being mystical, enigmatic, and generaly Elfish. How's October?
Galadriel.
P.S. Radagast, how're those eagles doing?

Dear White Council,
I'm free most of October, but not after the seventeenth. Arwen's coming to visit, and I can't leave her and Aragorn unsupervised. I've been very clear with them, no funny business until after he's King of half the known world, but you know kids these days...
Elrond.
And so on.

[KnightDisciple]

Maybe because Sauron got defeated by a dog :smalltongue: ?

Less "defeated" and more "driven off for a time". And that was via a being that was very much not a dog. Huan (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Huan) was distilled awesome in hound form.

He was some sort of Maiar, given directly by one of the Valar (pretty much any of whom could kick Sauron's behind) to another Valar. He was prophesied to be unbeatable except by "the greatest wolf ever" (which had to be specifically bred for that purpose).

In other words, getting driven away by Huan was no easy task. Well, as opposed to just getting killed by Huan.

I don't think a monk could achieve that. Especially just a lvl 20 monk.

[Zevox]

Maybe because Sauron got defeated by a dog :smalltongue: ?
If by "dog" you mean "hound from the land of the gods who was destined to only be defeated by the greatest wolf to ever live, which was not Sauron."

Zevox

[Jan Mattys]

Well, Balors are CR 20, and Balors = Balrogs, so if the Monk were optimized he could take a Balrog. Although optimizing a Monk almost implicitly means not going to 20th level, but that's besides the point. Anyways I can't imagine Sauron is that many CRs beyond a Balrog, especially without his ring.

Just so you know: the Peoples of Middle Earth manual puts:

Balrog of Moria lvl 36
Galadriel lvl 100
Elrond lvl 85
Gandalf the Gray lvl 40 (60 at full power, which he is somewhat prohibited the use)
Gandalf the White 100 (120)
Saruman the White 60 (80)
Saruman the Many-Colored 80 (100)
Sharkey 5
Aragorn 27
Boromir 20
Faramir 18
Legolas 6
Sauron before the forging of the Ring: 240
Sauron without the Ring: 180
Sauron with the Ring: 360
Bombadil 360

Compare with Silmarillion famous people:
Feanor 120
Elwe Singollo (Thingol Greycloak) 130
Ingwe 150 (High King of the Vanyar and all elves, first to set foot on Aman and perpetually living there)
Earendil the Mariner: 90
Hurin 100
Gil-Galad: 100
Thranduil: 30
Elendil: 60
Isildur: 50
Anarion 45

Just so you have another take on things.

[Avilan the Grey]

the whole thing with Arwen successfully created a romance almost as horrible as that in the Star Wars prequels.

What's bad with it?

[Avilan the Grey]

Another thing is that he wasn't fond of industrialization and the destruction of nature, as well as various other things, but as you said we can't really discuss that here.

Yes, I recall Christopher saying something of him and his dad sitting on a hillside (like Gandalf and Bilbo) and when seeing a steam train in the valley below getting all excited and his father strongly disapprove.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Also I'm fairly sure driving out evil wizards isn't something you just do on a whim, it probably takes planning. Given the speed of communication in Middle Earth, I'd imagine setting that sort of thing up could be a real pain, as the following exchange of fictitious letters demonstrate.

Dear White Council,
I would be happy to drive the Necromancer out with you. However Saturday the 24th of July is a bad day for me. There's an eagle hatch supposed to be going on that week, and I'd like to be here for that. Is sometime in late August any better for you?
Sincerely, Rhadagast.

Dear White Council,
Well, if July's out, I'm afraid I'm unavailable until at least September. I've gotta start breeding the Uruk- I mean conduct importanting non-postponable research of an indefinite nature.
Saruman.

Dear White Council,
September's no good for me. I've got that entire month scheduled for being mystical, enigmatic, and generaly Elfish. How's October?
Galadriel.
P.S. Radagast, how're those eagles doing?

Dear White Council,
I'm free most of October, but not after the seventeenth. Arwen's coming to visit, and I can't leave her and Aragorn unsupervised. I've been very clear with them, no funny business until after he's King of half the known world, but you know kids these days...
Elrond.
And so on.

I find myself wishing I had an internet to give you.

[Jan Mattys]

Also I'm fairly sure driving out evil wizards isn't something you just do on a whim, it probably takes planning. Given the speed of communication in Middle Earth, I'd imagine setting that sort of thing up could be a real pain, as the following exchange of fictitious letters demonstrate.

Dear White Council,
I would be happy to drive the Necromancer out with you. However Saturday the 24th of July is a bad day for me. There's an eagle hatch supposed to be going on that week, and I'd like to be here for that. Is sometime in late August any better for you?
Sincerely, Rhadagast.

Dear White Council,
Well, if July's out, I'm afraid I'm unavailable until at least September. I've gotta start breeding the Uruk- I mean conduct importanting non-postponable research of an indefinite nature.
Saruman.

Dear White Council,
September's no good for me. I've got that entire month scheduled for being mystical, enigmatic, and generaly Elfish. How's October?
Galadriel.
P.S. Radagast, how're those eagles doing?

Dear White Council,
I'm free most of October, but not after the seventeenth. Arwen's coming to visit, and I can't leave her and Aragorn unsupervised. I've been very clear with them, no funny business until after he's King of half the known world, but you know kids these days...
Elrond.
And so on.

<3
Will you bear my children?

[hamishspence]

I recall a very funny Secret Emails of the Nine Ringwraiths, which makes much comedy out of their unimpressive performance in the books (especially book 1)

Wednesday, April 19
Secret Emails Between Sauron and the Nine

- by bluicebank, with details taken from both film and books. [The original link is dead, but the White Council still remembers the post fondly - T.]

[email protected]:
"Witch-king & Co.: great opportunity here! Interrogation of Gollum reveals One Ring is in Shire (see attached jpg map). Apparently held by hobbit with last name of Baggins. Hobbits are v. short and not known to carry weapons. Piece of orc cake for you guys. Ride forth; grab the Baggins AND the Ring. Time to earn your keep. End-of-year bonus could be big!"

[email protected]:
"Oh Dark Lord, the magnificent. Can't find the Shire, so went to Saruman for directions. He said your map was not to scale. Shire turns out to be a verrry long way away. How come we're just learning this now? Expect delay in OneRing project. Respectfully, the Nine."

[email protected]:
"Tell me you didn't mention the Ring to Saruman! RE expected delay in project: I don't think so. Ride faster."

[email protected]:
"Great Master of Darkness, we did NOT tell Saruman about the Ring. Made up story about losing one of the nine rings while on vacation in those parts. Quite sure he bought it. Will do best to ride faster. Saruman great in Isengard chatroom, you should check it out."

[email protected]:
"Have hacked site of Isengard chatroom. Feel pleased. Let me know when you reach Shire."

[email protected]:
"Oh great Flaming Eye, stopped off at Bree for well deserved brewskies. Met kewl guy, Bill Ferny, who says Shire not far off. Also says Shire has 'killer weed,' so maybe hobbits will all be dead when we arrive ;-). Hope weed doesn't try to kill us. Looking forward to big bonus."

[email protected]:
"Get to the Shire, NOW! See attached artist's impression of Baggins."

[email protected]:
"Finally reached Shire. Hobbits still alive. No sign of lethal weed. One hobbit said Baggins and pals moved to suburb called Buckleberry, so we headed that way. Could have sworn we saw some hobbits matching description, but were scared off by elves. Could have sworn I felt power of the Ring. Wraith No.5 thinks he lost his ring in Bree. Do you have another one?"

[email protected]:
"No I don't have another one. Nine freaking rings for men, not ten! Tell No.5 to go back and find it. Better take three of you with him so he doesn't get lost himself! Sheesh."

[email protected]:
"Hobbits escaped us by going cross-country. Hope rest of the Nine don't take too long looking for No.5's ring in Bree. Thought we would outsmart hobbits and cut them off. Thwarted by mushroom farmer because he had very mean dogs NOT ON LEASHES. Maybe dogs will eat hobbits and we'll just wait to dig through their poop for One Ring. We'll wash it good, so don't worry."

[email protected]:
"Witch-king & Co.: Your mid-year reviews are coming up and I can tell you that it's not looking good. Inability (or unwillingness) to throw down with farmer's dogs not impressive. Please show more initiative. Forget about dog-poop idea. Proceed to Buckleberry."

[email protected]:
"Almost got 'em, Boss, but they took the ferry and wouldn't send the boat back. Have to go long way around. BTW, Buckleberry and Brandywine River not on your map, so have to ask for directions a lot. Probably an oversight on your part. Detachment to Bree still hasn't returned. Think that WE should get good reviews and Ringwraiths in Bree should be punished, because I'll bet you they are drinking lots of brewskies while we do all the hard work. Hugs."

[email protected]:
"(Sigh). I've freed Gollum in the unlikely, but not impossible, case that you cannot fulfill your mission. He seems very dedicated to finding the Ring. Consider this as competition for the year-end bonus."

[email protected]:
"Found 'em, Boss. Or at least we thought we found them. Busted up their hiding place real good, but they escaped into Old Forest, which is very scary. We would have gone in after them, but locals sounded incredible fire alarm. Took a vote and decided to head to Bree, wait for hobbits."

[email protected]:
"You took a vote?! (Sigh). Fine, whatever."

[email protected]:
"Now in Bree, but rest of Black Riders not here. Barkeep wants us to pay their tab. Pal Bill Ferny said homeys are retracing their steps to see if No.5's ring fell off on way from Isengard. Rented great room with view. Expense request enclosed."

[email protected]:
"2,000 farthings for 'Dwarf massage'?"

[email protected]:
"Hobbits in the building! One Ring confirmed, as hobbit called Underhill disappeared in bar. Guess you were wrong about the name Baggins. Attack on their room planned for midnight! Wish us luck."

[email protected]:
"Good going, team. FYI: 'Underhill' probably an alias."

[email protected]:
"Got 'em, Boss. Or, well, we thought we did. Entered room where they were staying and saw four beds with what seemed like hobbits sleeping. You should have seen us tear into them! For 30 minutes of what can only be described as a very impressive Ringwraith melee, we slashed and hacked and completely trashed the hobbits' room. But we were tricked, because the figures were only wooden bolsters underneath the covers. So me and the boys went to the rest of the hobbit suites and, let me tell you, ain't no hobbits going to lodging at the inn for quite a long time."

[email protected]:
"RE: Attempt to kill hobbits at Bree.
I understand your explanation that hobbits were not in room they rented. Am not mollified by your apparent pride in spending half an hour smashing bolsters and generally trashing that part of the inn.
You nitwits!
Now listen to me carefully: Scare off all horses and ponies in Bree, then watch for hobbits to flee on foot. Should be a no-brainer, even for you. Any word on rest of the Nine?"

[email protected]:
"Horses scattered like you said, Boss, except for Ferny's pony, which is nearly dead anyway. Off to find rest of the Nine. Wish us luck."

[email protected]:
"I said watch the road, you twits, not search for the other Nazgul!"

[email protected]:
"Right you are, Boss. We five are plenty for the job. I guess we'll get the others' bonuses, ha ha. Anyway, turns out the hobbits have joined forces with a Ranger, named Strider. Job suddenly got harder. They also bought Ferny's pony; Bill got hit with apple from one of the hobbits, but lived. He said they went cross-country, which means we'll just have to hope they rejoin the road up ahead. Thoughts?"

[email protected]:
"Thoughts? Yes, try following them. On second thought, we wouldn't want you to get lost in the wild, would we? I mean, what is the deal with you guys? Instead, proceed to Weathertop ... yes, it's on the map and wait for them. Don't screw up this time!"

[email protected]:
"Went to Weathertop, like you said, Boss. You didn't say a wizard lives there! It was Gandalf, the one you loathe. You would be so proud of us. All five of us ragged on him until he started flashing fire from his magic wand, or whatever that thing is. Boss, you're going to love this: We all rushed him and he ran like a frightened rabbit. Am now in pursuit! Wish us luck."

[email protected]:
"No, you idiots! It's a diversion. Get back to Weathertop and wait for hobbits."

[email protected]:
"Returned to Weathertop, like you said, Boss. But hobbits and Ranger already there. Attack planned for midnight, even though still missing four homeys. Go us!"

[email protected]:
"Yeah, go you. This is a results-oriented project, boys. Just bring It back. That's all I'm asking. No hostages, nothing. Let them all live for all I care. Good luck. There, I said it."

[email protected]:
"We're really on track with the project, Boss! Raided Weathertop camp. We had 'em. Check this out: No.2 stabbed the one carrying the Ring! Unfortunately, the hobbit had Swiss army knife and stabbed No.2 in left big toe. Didn't you say they were unarmed? We have to communicate more. Then Ranger started setting us on fire. Most of us able to roll on ground and save most of multi-layered robes, but I'm afraid No.6 and No. 8 are completely naked. Believe hobbits and Ranger escaped. No.9 says he lost his ring at Weathertop. Now I know what you're thinking, but you would be wrong. We're ALL going back to find his ring. Thanks for wishing us luck, because it sure worked! (Group hug).

[email protected]:
"Oh venerated mother of Morgoth! Why? What have I done to deserve this? Tell me, please.
OK, the Ringbearer Thief has been stabbed. That's good. Think positive thoughts.
Now, Witch-king, I want you to forget about No.9's ring. Go after the Hobbits, NOW. They're bound for Rivendale for sure."

[email protected]:
"Oops, already went to Weathertop (had problems getting email today, think you should check the modem bank, or server, or something). Good news. The rest of the Nine showed up. Turns out No.5 had his ring in one of the folds of his cloak all this time. I guess he's getting a bad review, right? Also found No.9's ring, even though you don't seem to care about it. Didn't tell No.9 you have adopted that position. Hope you care about my ring, still. :-)
Now going after hobbits with full speed. "Ringbearer Thief" (is this his REAL name?) should be catatonic by now from No.2's successful attack. No.2 wants to know if he gets extra bonus, and isn't sure he signed up for Mordor's HMO on re-enrollment week. His big toe is really looking bad. Thoughts?"

[email protected]:
"No.1, oh dear Witch-king. Apparently I have failed as a manager to sufficiently convey the importance of the OneRing project. To wit: Your sole purpose is to find the One Ring. Then lay your hands upon it. Do not put it on! Keep it safe on your journey back to Mordor. Then give it to me. That's it. All the personnel concerns you have mentioned will be taken care of, as long as you bring It back. Got that? Comprende? Dost thou fathom?"

[email protected]:
"You're right as always, Boss. The One Ring. Got ya loud and clear.
Uh, OK, sorry it's been a week since last email. We like nearly had him at the Ford, Rivendale. I mean, we were really, really close. Even though we had to mess with an elvish warrior and chase after an incredibly fast horse carrying Ringbearer, we were on it. Dude, there was this flood you wouldn't imagine, with scary horse things, and our own horses just freaked, so you'll have to blame the horses, which drowned. Since none of us can swim, and the flood was so terrible, all of us are now buck naked, although I still have my crown. No one lost their ring, which is a plus, right?"

[email protected]:
"(Sigh). This is not happening. Feared Nazgul in a pig's eye!
You have new orders: Get your butts back to the office. No, wait, you'll just get lost on the way. I'm sending my nine foul beasts of the air to fetch you."

[email protected]:
"Flying first class, Boss! This is way better than riding horses. Thanks for the gesture. We'll be able to get that Ring on Air Mordor, if you would just give us another chance. Please?"

[email protected]:
"After lengthy consideration, have decided against my better judgement to send the Nine out again to find the Ring. Yes, you will be flying Air Mordor this time. Make sure the beasts eat some grass for roughage, damnit."

[email protected]:
"Back in first class, Boss. Thanks for the reprieve!"

[email protected]:
"Hobbits reported in Moria. Company now numbering nine. How quaint. Balrog will get them. Then orcs will bring out Ring. Watch the eastern exit."

[email protected]:
"Moria not on map, much less east exit. Asked elves in Lothlorien for directions, but no help there. Took a vote and will watch Anduin River near Rauros. Wish us luck!"

[email protected]:
"You're going to need it."

[email protected]:
"Good news, Boss! Found the crew (there's eight, not nine like you said). Unfortunately, No.3's beast was shot down by an elf, so expect him to show up all bedraggled at Black Gate. He lost his key, so you'll have to let him in. No.2 hasn't been feeding his beast any grass, and its poop is just horrible! Also, looks like your orcs joined up with Saruman's brood. They captured two of the hobbits after killing man of Gondor. Go orcs. Seems they are heading toward Isengard, not Mordor. Suggest you contact them and send reliable map! Lost sight of remaining hobbits. But rest of company chasing after said orcs, which means that's where the Ring must be. Regards."

[email protected]:
"Isengard?! No. Nooo!!! All of you return to headquarters immediately! Witch-king, you head toward Isengard and intercept orcs."

[email protected]:
"Boss, went to Isengard like you said, but had to make sure beast got enough grass, so unable to overtake orcs. Someone really trashed Isengard. Don't think Saruman got the Ring, because otherwise he would have kept his place from getting hosed, right? Anyway, it looks like Rohan won their battle with Saruman the White, who is actually sporting more a tie-dye look these days."

[email protected]:
"Mercy! I'll have to wage war to get this Ring back. You, Witch-king, go out and attack anyone who looks like they might be wielding One Ring. I'm thinking King of Rohan, since last time I checked he was Saruman's cabana boy."

[email protected]:
"Oh, hi Boss. It's No.2. Bit of bad news. A girl beheaded Witch-king’s beast. Good news is King of Rohan's horse killed him. Unlikely he had Ring, like you said. But real bad news is Witch-king was stabbed in knee by a hobbit, and then killed by the girl. I thought we couldn't die, because of the rings you gave us. Is there something I should know? Oh yeah, you lost the battle of Pelennor (probably just to fake 'em out, I'll bet). Anyway, I guess this makes me No.1, right?"

[email protected]:
"(Sigh). Sure, you can be No.1, if it makes you happy. Would you all just circle the skies around Mordor, like at a really high altitude so you can't be shot down? That would be just peachy. You Eight can do that, can't you?"

[email protected]:
"Did what you said, Boss, flying high. Seems like 7,000 of the enemy are marching toward the home office. Better back up the database, right?"

[email protected]:
"Finally some good news. The captains of the West are pushing their luck. One of them probably has the Ring, but hasn't mastered it. Circle above the Black Gate."

[email protected]:
"Great news, Boss! Battle going great. They are completely surrounded. You're a genius."

[email protected]:
"Fools! The One Ring!! It's at Mount Doom! Fly, fly I tell thee! Fly to Mount Doom and grab the Ring before it's too late!"

[email protected]:
"Mount Doom? That's a volcano. Isn't it pretty hot there?"

[email protected]:
"Go to Mount Doom immediately! The Ring, get the Ring! Do it!"

[email protected]:
"OK, Boss, will do. Is the Ring INSIDE the volcano, or just near it? Well, I suppose we'll find out when we get there. Wish us luck!"

[email protected]:
"Boss, are you there? The volcano is erupting something fierce. No can find Ring. Can't even sense its presence. Are you sure it's at Mount Doom?"

[email protected]:
"Hey Boss, did you know that Mordor is crumbling? Boss?"

The site reprinting it, was here:

http://onceuponasmile.blogspot.com/2006_04_16_archive.html

[Avilan the Grey]

I recall a very funny Secret Emails of the Nine Ringwraiths, which makes much comedy out of their unimpressive performance in the books (especially book 1)

The site reprinting it, was here:

http://onceuponasmile.blogspot.com/2006_04_16_archive.html

...*Almost dies lauging*

Damn, I don't know if anyone did it, but I want to see a version of this where Sauron is Pointy-Haired Boss and the Wraiths are the other characters from Dilbert.

[hamishspence]

That is a good point. I was basing my statement on the line in the Tale of Years (Appendix B to LotR) for Year 3441: "Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring." But then right after that it does say "Sauron passes away" so it's definitely possible that losing the ring is what finally (if temporarily) sent his spirit to the netherworld. Still, the two kings deserve their fair share of the credit.

I've checked and if Wikipedia is correct, then the Letters clarify this issue- Sauron was actually "dead" in some way before the Ring was cut off:

Letters, #131: Elendil and Gil-galad were "slain in the act of slaying Sauron."

So- unless Sauron could revive himself almost immediately after being killed, it somewhat downplays Isildur's act. Though he may have been unaware of Sauron being physically dead.

[Drolyt]

I recall a very funny Secret Emails of the Nine Ringwraiths, which makes much comedy out of their unimpressive performance in the books (especially book 1)

Wednesday, April 19
Secret Emails Between Sauron and the Nine

- by bluicebank, with details taken from both film and books. [The original link is dead, but the White Council still remembers the post fondly - T.]

[email protected]:
"Witch-king & Co.: great opportunity here! Interrogation of Gollum reveals One Ring is in Shire (see attached jpg map). Apparently held by hobbit with last name of Baggins. Hobbits are v. short and not known to carry weapons. Piece of orc cake for you guys. Ride forth; grab the Baggins AND the Ring. Time to earn your keep. End-of-year bonus could be big!"

[email protected]:
"Oh Dark Lord, the magnificent. Can't find the Shire, so went to Saruman for directions. He said your map was not to scale. Shire turns out to be a verrry long way away. How come we're just learning this now? Expect delay in OneRing project. Respectfully, the Nine."

[email protected]:
"Tell me you didn't mention the Ring to Saruman! RE expected delay in project: I don't think so. Ride faster."

[email protected]:
"Great Master of Darkness, we did NOT tell Saruman about the Ring. Made up story about losing one of the nine rings while on vacation in those parts. Quite sure he bought it. Will do best to ride faster. Saruman great in Isengard chatroom, you should check it out."

[email protected]:
"Have hacked site of Isengard chatroom. Feel pleased. Let me know when you reach Shire."

[email protected]:
"Oh great Flaming Eye, stopped off at Bree for well deserved brewskies. Met kewl guy, Bill Ferny, who says Shire not far off. Also says Shire has 'killer weed,' so maybe hobbits will all be dead when we arrive ;-). Hope weed doesn't try to kill us. Looking forward to big bonus."

[email protected]:
"Get to the Shire, NOW! See attached artist's impression of Baggins."

[email protected]:
"Finally reached Shire. Hobbits still alive. No sign of lethal weed. One hobbit said Baggins and pals moved to suburb called Buckleberry, so we headed that way. Could have sworn we saw some hobbits matching description, but were scared off by elves. Could have sworn I felt power of the Ring. Wraith No.5 thinks he lost his ring in Bree. Do you have another one?"

[email protected]:
"No I don't have another one. Nine freaking rings for men, not ten! Tell No.5 to go back and find it. Better take three of you with him so he doesn't get lost himself! Sheesh."

[email protected]:
"Hobbits escaped us by going cross-country. Hope rest of the Nine don't take too long looking for No.5's ring in Bree. Thought we would outsmart hobbits and cut them off. Thwarted by mushroom farmer because he had very mean dogs NOT ON LEASHES. Maybe dogs will eat hobbits and we'll just wait to dig through their poop for One Ring. We'll wash it good, so don't worry."

[email protected]:
"Witch-king & Co.: Your mid-year reviews are coming up and I can tell you that it's not looking good. Inability (or unwillingness) to throw down with farmer's dogs not impressive. Please show more initiative. Forget about dog-poop idea. Proceed to Buckleberry."

[email protected]:
"Almost got 'em, Boss, but they took the ferry and wouldn't send the boat back. Have to go long way around. BTW, Buckleberry and Brandywine River not on your map, so have to ask for directions a lot. Probably an oversight on your part. Detachment to Bree still hasn't returned. Think that WE should get good reviews and Ringwraiths in Bree should be punished, because I'll bet you they are drinking lots of brewskies while we do all the hard work. Hugs."

[email protected]:
"(Sigh). I've freed Gollum in the unlikely, but not impossible, case that you cannot fulfill your mission. He seems very dedicated to finding the Ring. Consider this as competition for the year-end bonus."

[email protected]:
"Found 'em, Boss. Or at least we thought we found them. Busted up their hiding place real good, but they escaped into Old Forest, which is very scary. We would have gone in after them, but locals sounded incredible fire alarm. Took a vote and decided to head to Bree, wait for hobbits."

[email protected]:
"You took a vote?! (Sigh). Fine, whatever."

[email protected]:
"Now in Bree, but rest of Black Riders not here. Barkeep wants us to pay their tab. Pal Bill Ferny said homeys are retracing their steps to see if No.5's ring fell off on way from Isengard. Rented great room with view. Expense request enclosed."

[email protected]:
"2,000 farthings for 'Dwarf massage'?"

[email protected]:
"Hobbits in the building! One Ring confirmed, as hobbit called Underhill disappeared in bar. Guess you were wrong about the name Baggins. Attack on their room planned for midnight! Wish us luck."

[email protected]:
"Good going, team. FYI: 'Underhill' probably an alias."

[email protected]:
"Got 'em, Boss. Or, well, we thought we did. Entered room where they were staying and saw four beds with what seemed like hobbits sleeping. You should have seen us tear into them! For 30 minutes of what can only be described as a very impressive Ringwraith melee, we slashed and hacked and completely trashed the hobbits' room. But we were tricked, because the figures were only wooden bolsters underneath the covers. So me and the boys went to the rest of the hobbit suites and, let me tell you, ain't no hobbits going to lodging at the inn for quite a long time."

[email protected]:
"RE: Attempt to kill hobbits at Bree.
I understand your explanation that hobbits were not in room they rented. Am not mollified by your apparent pride in spending half an hour smashing bolsters and generally trashing that part of the inn.
You nitwits!
Now listen to me carefully: Scare off all horses and ponies in Bree, then watch for hobbits to flee on foot. Should be a no-brainer, even for you. Any word on rest of the Nine?"

[email protected]:
"Horses scattered like you said, Boss, except for Ferny's pony, which is nearly dead anyway. Off to find rest of the Nine. Wish us luck."

[email protected]:
"I said watch the road, you twits, not search for the other Nazgul!"

[email protected]:
"Right you are, Boss. We five are plenty for the job. I guess we'll get the others' bonuses, ha ha. Anyway, turns out the hobbits have joined forces with a Ranger, named Strider. Job suddenly got harder. They also bought Ferny's pony; Bill got hit with apple from one of the hobbits, but lived. He said they went cross-country, which means we'll just have to hope they rejoin the road up ahead. Thoughts?"

[email protected]:
"Thoughts? Yes, try following them. On second thought, we wouldn't want you to get lost in the wild, would we? I mean, what is the deal with you guys? Instead, proceed to Weathertop ... yes, it's on the map and wait for them. Don't screw up this time!"

[email protected]:
"Went to Weathertop, like you said, Boss. You didn't say a wizard lives there! It was Gandalf, the one you loathe. You would be so proud of us. All five of us ragged on him until he started flashing fire from his magic wand, or whatever that thing is. Boss, you're going to love this: We all rushed him and he ran like a frightened rabbit. Am now in pursuit! Wish us luck."

[email protected]:
"No, you idiots! It's a diversion. Get back to Weathertop and wait for hobbits."

[email protected]:
"Returned to Weathertop, like you said, Boss. But hobbits and Ranger already there. Attack planned for midnight, even though still missing four homeys. Go us!"

[email protected]:
"Yeah, go you. This is a results-oriented project, boys. Just bring It back. That's all I'm asking. No hostages, nothing. Let them all live for all I care. Good luck. There, I said it."

[email protected]:
"We're really on track with the project, Boss! Raided Weathertop camp. We had 'em. Check this out: No.2 stabbed the one carrying the Ring! Unfortunately, the hobbit had Swiss army knife and stabbed No.2 in left big toe. Didn't you say they were unarmed? We have to communicate more. Then Ranger started setting us on fire. Most of us able to roll on ground and save most of multi-layered robes, but I'm afraid No.6 and No. 8 are completely naked. Believe hobbits and Ranger escaped. No.9 says he lost his ring at Weathertop. Now I know what you're thinking, but you would be wrong. We're ALL going back to find his ring. Thanks for wishing us luck, because it sure worked! (Group hug).

[email protected]:
"Oh venerated mother of Morgoth! Why? What have I done to deserve this? Tell me, please.
OK, the Ringbearer Thief has been stabbed. That's good. Think positive thoughts.
Now, Witch-king, I want you to forget about No.9's ring. Go after the Hobbits, NOW. They're bound for Rivendale for sure."

[email protected]:
"Oops, already went to Weathertop (had problems getting email today, think you should check the modem bank, or server, or something). Good news. The rest of the Nine showed up. Turns out No.5 had his ring in one of the folds of his cloak all this time. I guess he's getting a bad review, right? Also found No.9's ring, even though you don't seem to care about it. Didn't tell No.9 you have adopted that position. Hope you care about my ring, still. :-)
Now going after hobbits with full speed. "Ringbearer Thief" (is this his REAL name?) should be catatonic by now from No.2's successful attack. No.2 wants to know if he gets extra bonus, and isn't sure he signed up for Mordor's HMO on re-enrollment week. His big toe is really looking bad. Thoughts?"

[email protected]:
"No.1, oh dear Witch-king. Apparently I have failed as a manager to sufficiently convey the importance of the OneRing project. To wit: Your sole purpose is to find the One Ring. Then lay your hands upon it. Do not put it on! Keep it safe on your journey back to Mordor. Then give it to me. That's it. All the personnel concerns you have mentioned will be taken care of, as long as you bring It back. Got that? Comprende? Dost thou fathom?"

[email protected]:
"You're right as always, Boss. The One Ring. Got ya loud and clear.
Uh, OK, sorry it's been a week since last email. We like nearly had him at the Ford, Rivendale. I mean, we were really, really close. Even though we had to mess with an elvish warrior and chase after an incredibly fast horse carrying Ringbearer, we were on it. Dude, there was this flood you wouldn't imagine, with scary horse things, and our own horses just freaked, so you'll have to blame the horses, which drowned. Since none of us can swim, and the flood was so terrible, all of us are now buck naked, although I still have my crown. No one lost their ring, which is a plus, right?"

[email protected]:
"(Sigh). This is not happening. Feared Nazgul in a pig's eye!
You have new orders: Get your butts back to the office. No, wait, you'll just get lost on the way. I'm sending my nine foul beasts of the air to fetch you."

[email protected]:
"Flying first class, Boss! This is way better than riding horses. Thanks for the gesture. We'll be able to get that Ring on Air Mordor, if you would just give us another chance. Please?"

[email protected]:
"After lengthy consideration, have decided against my better judgement to send the Nine out again to find the Ring. Yes, you will be flying Air Mordor this time. Make sure the beasts eat some grass for roughage, damnit."

[email protected]:
"Back in first class, Boss. Thanks for the reprieve!"

[email protected]:
"Hobbits reported in Moria. Company now numbering nine. How quaint. Balrog will get them. Then orcs will bring out Ring. Watch the eastern exit."

[email protected]:
"Moria not on map, much less east exit. Asked elves in Lothlorien for directions, but no help there. Took a vote and will watch Anduin River near Rauros. Wish us luck!"

[email protected]:
"You're going to need it."

[email protected]:
"Good news, Boss! Found the crew (there's eight, not nine like you said). Unfortunately, No.3's beast was shot down by an elf, so expect him to show up all bedraggled at Black Gate. He lost his key, so you'll have to let him in. No.2 hasn't been feeding his beast any grass, and its poop is just horrible! Also, looks like your orcs joined up with Saruman's brood. They captured two of the hobbits after killing man of Gondor. Go orcs. Seems they are heading toward Isengard, not Mordor. Suggest you contact them and send reliable map! Lost sight of remaining hobbits. But rest of company chasing after said orcs, which means that's where the Ring must be. Regards."

[email protected]:
"Isengard?! No. Nooo!!! All of you return to headquarters immediately! Witch-king, you head toward Isengard and intercept orcs."

[email protected]:
"Boss, went to Isengard like you said, but had to make sure beast got enough grass, so unable to overtake orcs. Someone really trashed Isengard. Don't think Saruman got the Ring, because otherwise he would have kept his place from getting hosed, right? Anyway, it looks like Rohan won their battle with Saruman the White, who is actually sporting more a tie-dye look these days."

[email protected]:
"Mercy! I'll have to wage war to get this Ring back. You, Witch-king, go out and attack anyone who looks like they might be wielding One Ring. I'm thinking King of Rohan, since last time I checked he was Saruman's cabana boy."

[email protected]:
"Oh, hi Boss. It's No.2. Bit of bad news. A girl beheaded Witch-king’s beast. Good news is King of Rohan's horse killed him. Unlikely he had Ring, like you said. But real bad news is Witch-king was stabbed in knee by a hobbit, and then killed by the girl. I thought we couldn't die, because of the rings you gave us. Is there something I should know? Oh yeah, you lost the battle of Pelennor (probably just to fake 'em out, I'll bet). Anyway, I guess this makes me No.1, right?"

[email protected]:
"(Sigh). Sure, you can be No.1, if it makes you happy. Would you all just circle the skies around Mordor, like at a really high altitude so you can't be shot down? That would be just peachy. You Eight can do that, can't you?"

[email protected]:
"Did what you said, Boss, flying high. Seems like 7,000 of the enemy are marching toward the home office. Better back up the database, right?"

[email protected]:
"Finally some good news. The captains of the West are pushing their luck. One of them probably has the Ring, but hasn't mastered it. Circle above the Black Gate."

[email protected]:
"Great news, Boss! Battle going great. They are completely surrounded. You're a genius."

[email protected]:
"Fools! The One Ring!! It's at Mount Doom! Fly, fly I tell thee! Fly to Mount Doom and grab the Ring before it's too late!"

[email protected]:
"Mount Doom? That's a volcano. Isn't it pretty hot there?"

[email protected]:
"Go to Mount Doom immediately! The Ring, get the Ring! Do it!"

[email protected]:
"OK, Boss, will do. Is the Ring INSIDE the volcano, or just near it? Well, I suppose we'll find out when we get there. Wish us luck!"

[email protected]:
"Boss, are you there? The volcano is erupting something fierce. No can find Ring. Can't even sense its presence. Are you sure it's at Mount Doom?"

[email protected]:
"Hey Boss, did you know that Mordor is crumbling? Boss?"

The site reprinting it, was here:

http://onceuponasmile.blogspot.com/2006_04_16_archive.html

That... is awesome! Truly hilarious really, although I feel the need to point out, against my better instincts, that IIRC the Nine did not actually possess their rings at that point because they had reached the point where Sauron could control them without the rings.

Just so you know: the Peoples of Middle Earth manual puts:

Balrog of Moria lvl 36
Galadriel lvl 100
Elrond lvl 85
Gandalf the Gray lvl 40 (60 at full power, which he is somewhat prohibited the use)
Gandalf the White 100 (120)
Saruman the White 60 (80)
Saruman the Many-Colored 80 (100)
Sharkey 5
Aragorn 27
Boromir 20
Faramir 18
Legolas 6
Sauron before the forging of the Ring: 240
Sauron without the Ring: 180
Sauron with the Ring: 360
Bombadil 360

Compare with Silmarillion famous people:
Feanor 120
Elwe Singollo (Thingol Greycloak) 130
Ingwe 150 (High King of the Vanyar and all elves, first to set foot on Aman and perpetually living there)
Earendil the Mariner: 90
Hurin 100
Gil-Galad: 100
Thranduil: 30
Elendil: 60
Isildur: 50
Anarion 45

Just so you have another take on things.
What? That's absurd. That would make Sauron stronger than D&D deities, and I can assure you he is not. Besides that, no way in hell is Sauron three times as strong as Feanor. That's just bull. Also Ingwe was almost certainly lower level than Thingol, Feanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel, Luthien, Finrod, Gil-Galad, and Earendil at the least, simply by virtue of the fact that he is not a warrior. Ingwe was High King because Manwe showed favoritism, it was explicitly stated that the most powerful Elves were Feanor, Thingol, Luthien, and Galadriel, approximately in that order, and that the Noldor were the most skilled in war, not the Vanyar. Moreover Finrod made a good show against Sauron, which in DnD terms means he was at most 5 levels below him. Feanor possessed certain magic Sauron did not, seeing as he could make Palantiri and Sauron could not, though I'm not sure he would win in a fight (I think it likely though).

[hamishspence]

That... is awesome! Truly hilarious really, although I feel the need to point out, against my better instincts, that IIRC the Nine did not actually possess their rings at that point because they had reached the point where Sauron could control them without the rings.

true- makes for good comedy though.

There are quite a lot of comedy Tolkien things out there- secret diaries of various characters, scenes written in the style of other authors, like Tom Clancy, and so on.

[Avilan the Grey]

What? That's absurd. That would make Sauron stronger than D&D deities, and I can assure you he is not.

This is the problem with trying to shoe-horn in a non-D&D compatible world into a D&D based rule system. It cannot really be done. Magic, and power, works so significantly different.

Btw I seem to recall a "debate" several years ago between a 13 year old kid and some older people on a Tolkien site where the boys main point was that he was disappointed in Gandalf since he was no real wizard. He didn't throw time stop or fireballs or anything (I think the boy said that Gandalf was probably not even lvl 10).

[hamishspence]

These days, its E6- the claim that Aragorn was at most 5th level, and even Gandalf wasn't much better.

[Drolyt]

These days, its E6- the claim that Aragorn was at most 5th level, and even Gandalf wasn't much better.

That's probably roughly true, though as pointed out above D&D works fine if you just want to play the archetype, but translating characters to D&D just doesn't work.

Btw I seem to recall a "debate" several years ago between a 13 year old kid and some older people on a Tolkien site where the boys main point was that he was disappointed in Gandalf since he was no real wizard. He didn't throw time stop or fireballs or anything (I think the boy said that Gandalf was probably not even lvl 10).
That's... just sad. I'd be the first to say that 20th level D&D Wizards could completely own 99% of fictional characters, but power alone doesn't make for a good story, or a good person for that matter.

[hamishspence]

that, and Gandalf is closer to some form of celestial, than a wizard. Maybe even a bard, given that his celestial form in the Silmarillion (Olorin) is famous for musical skills.

The Silmarillion in general, has a slightly more D&D-ish flavour.

Finrod disguising himself and his companions as orcs with magic- and then having it dispelled by Sauron in a mage duel. Luthien and Sauron's even more powerful shapechanging magics. Luthien singing the entire court of Morgoth into sleep. Glaurung magically giving Nienor amnesia, then it being dispelled when he dies.

You can probably think of others.

[Drolyt]

that, and Gandalf is closer to some form of celestial, than a wizard. Maybe even a bard, given that his celestial form in the Silmarillion (Olorin) is famous for musical skills.

The Silmarillion in general, has a slightly more D&D-ish flavour.

Finrod disguising himself and his companions as orcs with magic- and then having it dispelled by Sauron in a mage duel. Luthien and Sauron's even more powerful shapechanging magics. Luthien singing the entire court of Morgoth into sleep. Glaurung magically giving Nienor amnesia, then it being dispelled when he dies.

You can probably think of others.

The Silmarillion was meant to be more like the native mythologies of Europe, which are at any rate closer to D&D than LotR. Tolkien didn't like that England didn't have her own mythology so he started to write one for her. LotR, however, was a story, a complete narrative. Epic magic and monsters weren't really supposed to be the focus, even if that's what many people took away from it. Note also that the earliest parts of Tolkien's Mythos were written when he was younger, and his earlier work was more fantastical and less cynical than his latter.

[hamishspence]

Some characters actually get portrayed in a better light in his latest writings, than in earlier ones. Galadriel, for example, in Unfinished Tales, as compared to The Silmarillion account (it's mentioned in the commentaries to Unfinished Tales that Galadriel got revised considerably late in Tolkien's life, but this had to be left out of The Silmarillion).

[Drolyt]

Some characters actually get portrayed in a better light in his latest writings, than in earlier ones. Galadriel, for example, in Unfinished Tales, as compared to The Silmarillion account (it's mentioned in the commentaries to Unfinished Tales that Galadriel got revised considerably late in Tolkien's life, but this had to be left out of The Silmarillion).

True, but the very earliest accounts of Middle-Earth (Book of Lost Tales and what have you) were simply much more fantastical and much closer to the source material, without the whole "fading" thing that would come latter and define the mythos.

[hamishspence]

yes- The First Age is a bit closer to a D&D-ish world. And The Hobbit, in certain respects- the talking spiders, Smaug, etc.

Still, some D&D settings have included a little of "fading" and "elves travelling west over the sea"- Faerun, for example, at least until The Retreat ended.

[daecrist]

The Silmarillion in general, has a slightly more D&D-ish flavour.

Shouldn't that be the other way around? :smallwink:

[Optimystik]

Maybe because Sauron got defeated by a dog :smalltongue: ?

Any dog can kick ass when he's buffed to the nines. "With the help of Luthien's magic."


yes- The First Age is a bit closer to a D&D-ish world. And The Hobbit, in certain respects- the talking spiders, Smaug, etc.

Still, some D&D settings have included a little of "fading" and "elves travelling west over the sea"- Faerun, for example, at least until The Retreat ended.

Also Dwarven infertility, until the Thunder Blessing.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think you should try to stat out LotR with WRPG rather than D&D. It has a much more realistic feel, with Grand Heroes and monstruous monsters really have a feeling of such.

No nonsense of saying that "Meh.. an ogre is just CR 3". Whatever your power skill, an ogre always is a force to reckon with!

Oh, and magic is funnier. It's less of a swiss army knife.

[hamishspence]

True- and a lot of Warhammer has nods more to LoTR than D&D.

There have been a few LoTR roleplaying games- one by Iron Crown Enterprises, one more recently, after the movies started being released.

LoTR D&D, whether low level or not, would probably be low magic. Not much in the way of magic armour, amulets, etc- magic swords and knives seem to be most of it (the human-produced daggers of Arnor, and the ancient elven weapons found in The Hobbit, that glow near orcs).

Besides ancient artifacts that can't be reproduced- like the palantiri.

[Avilan the Grey]

Speaking of Low Magic worlds, I hear that the D20 version of Conan actually works (About a year before it's release I read a long article in a gaming magazine (table top) about the difficulties adopting most gaming systems to a world where armor doesn't give you a distinct advantage and magic is both very rare, very powerful and at the same time can be conquered with a steel sword and an iron fist if you are strong-willed enough. A lot of that also applies to Middle Earth, come to think of it).

[SolkaTruesilver]

LoTR D&D, whether low level or not, would probably be low magic. Not much in the way of magic armour, amulets, etc- magic swords and knives seem to be most of it (the human-produced daggers of Arnor, and the ancient elven weapons found in The Hobbit, that glow near orcs).

Besides ancient artifacts that can't be reproduced- like the palantiri.

Again, it's not that hard to put a dichotomy between "magical" and "exceptional". "Exceptional" items still could have very, very, very, very faint magic in them, either because of incredible craft (Bilbo's mithril shirt) or because they have been the center of great upheaval in history (ex: the dagger used to kill King XXX, the Sword of the Rohirrims, etc...). They are not magic per se, but they are.... ...

special.

Pretty much like WFRP. Extraordinary characteristics in item are not necessarely the work of magic. (well.. they are, but not trough arcane, divine or chaos involvement)

[hamishspence]

I think something like this was discussed in The Science of LoTR- the idea that the elven stuff (rope, lembas, boats, etc) aren't so much magic, as technology- but very low intrusiveness.

There was also a rather wacky theory based on Bilbo's Song of Earendil, that the elves have spaceflight:

"A ship then new they made for him, of mithril and of elven-glass"- aluminium and plastic?

This combined well with Akallabeth in the Silmarillion- the world is made round- yet elves still travel to Valinor on the Straight Road.

This was the site:

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/theories.htm

[WalkingTarget]

These days, its E6- the claim that Aragorn was at most 5th level, and even Gandalf wasn't much better.

Lesse, we had a thread about this a while back...

Ah, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71869) we go, GoC's attempt to stat up Sauron in an E6 setting (where he wound up as CR11).

Edit - about letter 131, yeah, I'd forgotten that line, but I've brought it up before in discussions here. I still think it's open to the interpretation that Sauron was "dead" but if they'd left the Ring on him he might have been able to get back up given some (non-trivial) amount of time due to the common phrasing that his spirit departed after the Ring was removed.

[Drolyt]

Lesse, we had a thread about this a while back...

Ah, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71869) we go, GoC's attempt to stat up Sauron in an E6 setting (where he wound up as CR11).

Edit - about letter 131, yeah, I'd forgotten that line, but I've brought it up before in discussions here. I still think it's open to the interpretation that Sauron was "dead" but if they'd left the Ring on him he might have been able to get back up given some (non-trivial) amount of time due to the common phrasing that his spirit departed after the Ring was removed.

As an Ainur it wasn't easy to destroy Sauron completely, his spirit would always survive and he could simply build a new body. In the Silmarillion it is implied that if Huan slew Sauron he wouldn't be able to get a new body, but there is no explanation for why that would be the case. At any rate I think if he still possessed the ring he could simply reform, but without it he was less a great deal of power and it would be more difficult.

[hamishspence]

Or, his spirit can heal his body of fatal wounds, with the help of the Ring. Hence- he "forsook his body" once the ring was off.

We don't really know.

As to Huan- I think it could have been that Luthien thought Morgoth simply wouldn't let him reform, for his failure, but keep him in perpetual torment.

I think in Lays of Beleriand, when he flees in vampire form, he leaves a dead wolf body behind- its been a while since I've looked.

[Drolyt]

Or, his spirit can heal his body of fatal wounds, with the help of the Ring. Hence- he "forsook his body" once the ring was off.

We don't really know.

As to Huan- I think it could have been that Luthien thought Morgoth simply wouldn't let him reform, for his failure, but keep him in perpetual torment.

I think in Lays of Beleriand, when he flees in vampire form, he leaves a dead wolf body behind- its been a while since I've looked.

It's been a while since I read either the Lays or the Silmarillion, but you are probably right. It probably takes a while for a purely spiritual being to make a physical body, and it seems to drain some of your inherit power to do so (part of the reason why he made the ring).

[WalkingTarget]

As an Ainur it wasn't easy to destroy Sauron completely, his spirit would always survive and he could simply build a new body. In the Silmarillion it is implied that if Huan slew Sauron he wouldn't be able to get a new body, but there is no explanation for why that would be the case. At any rate I think if he still possessed the ring he could simply reform, but without it he was less a great deal of power and it would be more difficult.

For body-building ties the respective Ainur to the material world more and more. The non-fallen ones don't do this as much as Morgoth's crew do (I always had the feeling that the "raiment" variety of taking shape was a lot less of a big deal than the more fixed forms that Sauron, Morgoth, the Balrogs, etc took). Of the Valar, Morgoth alone knew fear because he's the only one to take on a "permanent" body and become subject to what that entails. Likewise with Sauron except that he eventually wised up and tied most of himself into the Ring instead of the individual body that walked around (but since a base setting of the Ring is to preserve things it'd help keep that body up and running). I've come to the interpretation that if Sauron hadn't made the Ring but everything else had played out in the same way, then he would have been left as that impotent spirit of malice after his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance. This also plays into the fact that Balrogs don't seem to come back once they're defeated.

I don't remember if it's discussed anywhere what happened with Melian, what with the whole having a child thing.

Edit - and I really need to find some decent copies of the Unfinished Tales and the History series. I've only read the former once and haven't gotten around to the latter at all.

[factotum]

As an Ainur it wasn't easy to destroy Sauron completely, his spirit would always survive and he could simply build a new body.

I think there's a fair bit of evidence that the process of rebuilding a new body wasn't trivial, even for an Ainu--it's said that Sauron could never take on a pleasant appearance after his body was destroyed in the downfall of Numenor, for instance. Also, you'd have thought Morgoth would have destroyed and re-created his own body to be free of the pain he got from the burns of the Silmarils if it was as easy as all that!

[Drolyt]

For body-building ties the respective Ainur to the material world more and more. The non-fallen ones don't do this as much as Morgoth's crew do (I always had the feeling that the "raiment" variety of taking shape was a lot less of a big deal than the more fixed forms that Sauron, Morgoth, the Balrogs, etc took). Of the Valar, Morgoth alone knew fear because he's the only one to take on a "permanent" body and become subject to what that entails. Likewise with Sauron except that he eventually wised up and tied most of himself into the Ring instead of the individual body that walked around (but since a base setting of the Ring is to preserve things it'd help keep that body up and running). I've come to the interpretation that if Sauron hadn't made the Ring but everything else had played out in the same way, then he would have been left as that impotent spirit of malice after his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance. This also plays into the fact that Balrogs don't seem to come back once they're defeated.

I don't remember if it's discussed anywhere what happened with Melian, what with the whole having a child thing.

Edit - and I really need to find some decent copies of the Unfinished Tales and the History series. I've only read the former once and haven't gotten around to the latter at all.


I think there's a fair bit of evidence that the process of rebuilding a new body wasn't trivial, even for an Ainu--it's said that Sauron could never take on a pleasant appearance after his body was destroyed in the downfall of Numenor, for instance. Also, you'd have thought Morgoth would have destroyed and re-created his own body to be free of the pain he got from the burns of the Silmarils if it was as easy as all that!

I'm going to hazard a guess that creating a more permanent body allowed your body to be more powerful, which would explain why the Balrog's did it. Morgoth and Sauron seemed to fall into it simply because they made so many bodies they couldn't keep doing it. The idea of the ring was to concentrate all of Sauron's power therein so that it wouldn't be used up the way Morgoth's was. Thus the statement that Sauron at the height of the Second Age was greater than Morgoth at the end of the First, which despite the opinion of many fans is completely reasonable; note in the Valaquenta it says that some of the Maiar were "well nigh as great as themselves", referring to the Valar, which incidentally makes me think that the Valar weren't that far above the mightiest mortals.

[WalkingTarget]

The idea of the ring was to concentrate all of Sauron's power therein so that it wouldn't be used up the way Morgoth's was. Thus the statement that Sauron at the height of the Second Age was greater than Morgoth at the end of the First, which despite the opinion of many fans is completely reasonable;

The idea of the Ring was to subjugate the Elves. In order to exert that much control over material beings he had to be present as a material being. By putting so much of himself into a material focus with the express purpose of dominating all of the people of the world he was made stronger with respect to that goal as long as he kept possession of the Ring. He was just as "used up" as Morgoth, but his scope was just more narrowly focused - Morgoth poured too much of himself into the world and his final defeat won't be until the world is ended and remade during the Dagor Dagorath, Sauron could have been defeated by somebody else simply gaining full use of the Ring and wresting it from his control (not that this would be good news for the rest of the world).

[Drolyt]

The idea of the Ring was to subjugate the Elves. In order to exert that much control over material beings he had to be present as a material being. By putting so much of himself into a material focus with the express purpose of dominating all of the people of the world he was made stronger with respect to that goal as long as he kept possession of the Ring. He was just as "used up" as Morgoth, but his scope was just more narrowly focused - Morgoth poured too much of himself into the world and his final defeat won't be until the world is ended and remade during the Dagor Dagorath, Sauron could have been defeated by somebody else simply gaining full use of the Ring and wresting it from his control (not that this would be good news for the rest of the world).

Nevertheless Sauron's ring proved more effective than Morgoth's; so long as Sauron possessed the ring he was not diminished but actually enhanced, and yet he could still put forth all his power towards bending Elves and Men to his will without fear that that power would diminish, at least so long as the ring lasted. Remember that the power of "all the rings alike" was to prevent decay, and that included the master ring, which could preserve Sauron's power. Morgoth on the other hand spread his power throughout the earth itself, diminishing himself to the point that Melkor, who could once wrestle with all the other Valar combined and win, became Morgoth, who was weaker than Sauron + ring. It was implied that Morgoth could, if he chose, recall all that power back into himself, but that would require him to admit he was wrong, and that's something he could not do.

[WalkingTarget]

Nevertheless Sauron's ring proved more effective than Morgoth's; so long as Sauron possessed the ring he was not diminished but actually enhanced, and yet he could still put forth all his power towards bending Elves and Men to his will without fear that that power would diminish, at least so long as the ring lasted. Remember that the power of "all the rings alike" was to prevent decay, and that included the master ring, which could preserve Sauron's power. Morgoth on the other hand spread his power throughout the earth itself, diminishing himself to the point that Melkor, who could once wrestle with all the other Valar combined and win, became Morgoth, who was weaker than Sauron + ring.

It comes down to their scope - Morgoth wants to rule all of creation, Sauron's just trying to bully the inhabitants, and even that was primarily through the Ring trick - and that was inherently flawed since it allowed for somebody else to usurp that power. Morgoth's loss was one of a slow diffusion into the nature of the world over time, Sauron's loss was an all-or-nothing gambit on the Ring. They're both deluded, but each had to work in the way they did. Morgoth sought to control literally everything, so had to put himself into everything - since only Eru is infinite, this was doomed to fail. Sauron was trying to become the leader of the world's inhabitants and thus had to find a way to crank his own force of will up to 11.


It was implied that Morgoth could, if he chose, recall all that power back into himself, but that would require him to admit he was wrong, and that's something he could not do.

I've not seen this implication. If it's from something in the History books I've probably not had access to it, though.

[Zevox]

Also, you'd have thought Morgoth would have destroyed and re-created his own body to be free of the pain he got from the burns of the Silmarils if it was as easy as all that!
Morgoth was specifically said to have lost the ability to change his form after using up so much of his power - he couldn't create a new one even if he wanted to.

Zevox

[Drolyt]

I've not seen this implication. If it's from something in the History books I've probably not had access to it, though.

It was either in Morgoth's Ring or Unfinished Tales, can't remember which. Basically, all that power he put forth into controlling the world was still his, but to recall it he would have to at the very least admit he made a mistake, but he had become so arrogant he couldn't even do that. I'm not sure whether this applies to Sauron and the Ring, but if I understand it correctly Sauron could also recover his power if he would forsake the use to which that power was put- the subjugation of elves and men.

[WalkingTarget]

It was either in Morgoth's Ring or Unfinished Tales, can't remember which. Basically, all that power he put forth into controlling the world was still his, but to recall it he would have to at the very least admit he made a mistake, but he had become so arrogant he couldn't even do that. I'm not sure whether this applies to Sauron and the Ring, but if I understand it correctly Sauron could also recover his power if he would forsake the use to which that power was put- the subjugation of elves and men.

From what I know of the subject matter, I'd guess Morgoth's Ring. I think something like that would have stuck out to me during my read of UT. It does fit with the whole "nobody's irredeemably evil" thing, though, so I like it.

[Drolyt]

[Melkor] is 'dispersed'. But
the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become
habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process
was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement
and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do
it.*
There's much more, and it is rather interesting, but I don't think I can post more without running afoul of copyright. Later in a different passage it mentions that Morgoth, although sealed in the void for the time being, could possibly recall some of the power that had left him, and also that like all things in Arda his spirit could grow and become more powerful, and it should be the easier for him to do since in the meantime he has nothing to do but to try to grow his power.

Edit: The latter was in reference to the final battle, where Morgoth will break free. I'm not certain if it survived to the end but at one point in the mythology it was Turin who would defeat Morgoth in the Final Battle, though I'm not sure how that works since he was a mortal and left Arda when he died.

[hamishspence]

Maybe humans who have left Arda, can sometimes be recalled?

Ghosts appear in the LoTR mythos: Gorlim, the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Maybe Turin is an unquiet spirit, who can be brought back to life in some way?

Or the sword Gurthang is more than it appears- when it killed him- and broke under him, it took his soul, and if you find the broken sword, you can bring the soul within back to life?

Mmm- wacky Return of Turin theories.... :smallbiggrin:

[Drolyt]

Maybe humans who have left Arda, can sometimes be recalled?

Ghosts appear in the LoTR mythos: Gorlim, the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Maybe Turin is an unquiet spirit, who can be brought back to life in some way?

Or the sword Gurthang is more than it appears- when it killed him- and broke under him, it took his soul, and if you find the broken sword, you can bring the soul within back to life?

Mmm- wacky Return of Turin theories.... :smallbiggrin:

On Ghosts: IIRC, a Elf or Human can, if they so choose, become a ghost and refuse to pass on properly. It's not a very attractive option since you can't do much in that form, and it's considered more or less evil. Also I looked it up and apparently the Daggor Bragoletch or whatever was abandoned. There was still going to be a final battle, but Tokien decided not even Manwe, Varda, or Mandos knew the specifics, and due to the Literary Agent Hypothesis neither do we. Whether that means Turin was no longer destined to avenge the House of Hador and the Children of Hurin I'm not sure. At any rate I guess it's conceivable Eru could send Turin back or else that Turin wandered the earth as a ghost instead of passing on.

[WalkingTarget]

Maybe humans who have left Arda, can sometimes be recalled?

Well, there was Beren after all.

Wikipedia's page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin_Turambar#Fate_after_death) on Turin has a rundown of the different versions of his return. It doesn't sound like Tolkien ever really got it nailed down in a form he was comfortable with.

[Drolyt]

Well, there was Beren after all.

Wikipedia's page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin_Turambar#Fate_after_death) on Turin has a rundown of the different versions of his return. It doesn't sound like Tolkien ever really got it nailed down in a form he was comfortable with.

Beren never left Arda, he went to the Halls of Mandos and stayed there for a while before being sent back to middle earth.

[hamishspence]

Berens was a case of a mortal soul being brought back from Mandos, as opposed to being brough back after it left Arda entirely (it seems to go with human souls going to Mandos for a short time, then leaving Arda)

EDIT: Ninjaed.

While Dagor Dagorath is a bit unfinished, some of the inconsistencies could be ironed out. If Melkor can resurrect a few of his minions, this would explain Ancalagon the Black's appearance, for example.

[WalkingTarget]

The text I find about Turin's return is:

"In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

So in that version (at least) Turin was still in the Halls at that time.

[Drolyt]

The text I find about Turin's return is:

"In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

So in that version (at least) Turin was still in the Halls at that time.

I believe that that was the case in one of the versions, yes. There were a few different versions and I don't think he ever decided. Like I said he abandoned the idea of the outcome of the Last Battle actually being known and instead it is just something that everyone knows will happen, but about which nothing is really known.

[Jan Mattys]

What? That's absurd. That would make Sauron stronger than D&D deities, and I can assure you he is not. Besides that, no way in hell is Sauron three times as strong as Feanor. That's just bull. Also Ingwe was almost certainly lower level than Thingol, Feanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel, Luthien, Finrod, Gil-Galad, and Earendil at the least, simply by virtue of the fact that he is not a warrior. Ingwe was High King because Manwe showed favoritism, it was explicitly stated that the most powerful Elves were Feanor, Thingol, Luthien, and Galadriel, approximately in that order, and that the Noldor were the most skilled in war, not the Vanyar. Moreover Finrod made a good show against Sauron, which in DnD terms means he was at most 5 levels below him. Feanor possessed certain magic Sauron did not, seeing as he could make Palantiri and Sauron could not, though I'm not sure he would win in a fight (I think it likely though).

I never said these were D&D levels. This is an entirely different system. I just posted this because it shows the trend and the relative power of characters.

For Example: Manwe and Elbereth are lvl 500, and so is Morgoth. They are the greatest powers short of Eru itself.
The fourth strongest Valar is Ulmo, at 490. All Valar stand between 400 and 500 anyway.

As for Ingwe, he's the strongest of all Elves because he's the most blessed, having been the first to ever set foot on Aman, and having spent tousands of years in the Light of Manwe. Ingwe only returned to Middle Earth once, to lead the armies of the Elves in the battle of Thangorodrim.

Elwe (Thingol), Finwe and Ignwe were the High Kings of Teleri, Noldor and Vanyar. The Vanyar being the strongest and the first to reach Aman without the passion of the Noldor but with unsurpassed wisdom. Their King is by right High King of all Elves.

Also, Sauron being far stronger than Feanor is right. Just NOT three times stronger than Feanor: Feanor was one of the most gifted elves ever, and his lvl 130 reflects that. Sauron at the time of his deception of Aule was 240. Infusing part of his own essence into the one ring, he lost some power, but with the Ring as a focus for his powers he was much stronger and one of the greatest Maiar.

Last but not least: these numbers are NOT word of god. But I've always found they make sense and are quite balanced, and they also stand true to the general trend of power decreasing over generations. Again, though, remember that these have nothing to do with D&D levels. Hell, NOTHING in lotr has anything to do with D&D anyway....

[Drolyt]

I never said these were D&D levels. This is an entirely different system. I just posted this because it shows the trend and the relative power of characters.

For Example: Manwe and Elbereth are lvl 500, and so is Morgoth. They are the greatest powers short of Eru itself.
The fourth strongest Valar is Ulmo, at 490. All Valar stand between 400 and 500 anyway.

As for Ingwe, he's the strongest of all Elves because he's the most blessed, having been the first to ever set foot on Aman, and having spent tousands of years in the Light of Manwe. Ingwe only returned to Middle Earth once, to lead the armies of the Elves in the battle of Thangorodrim.

Elwe (Thingol), Feanor and Ignwe were the High Kings of Teleri, Noldor and Vanyar. The Vanyar being the strongest. Their King is by right High King of all Elves.

Also, Sauron being far stronger than Feanor is right. Just NOT three times stronger than Feanor: Feanor was one of the most gifted elves ever, and his lvl 130 reflects that. Sauron at the time of his deception of Aule was 240. Infusing part of his own essence into the one ring, he lost some power, but with the Ring as a focus for his powers he was much stronger and one of the greatest Maiar.

Last but not least: these numbers are NOT word of god. But I've always found they make sense and are quite balanced. Again, though, remember that these have nothing to do with D&D levels. Hell, NOTHING in lotr has anything to do with D&D anyway....

Ok, I thought you meant D&D levels. Either way you look at it though Ingwe is over leveled; he was high king, but it was outright stated that Feanor was the most powerful of the Children of Illuvater and that Thingol was second (and also the tallest of all the Children of Illuvater). In a different passage it also said Luthien was the greatest of the Elves, so I'm not sure how the works, and Galadriel was said to be second strongest of the Noldor. I really don't think Ingwe is higher than those four, and I would hazard that Fingolfin and Finrod, possibly also Maedhros were stronger than Ingwe as well. I'm also not convinced that Sauron is stronger than Feanor or Thingol (or Turin or Beren for that matter). Also I'm not sure how those levels scale but the Valar weren't that much stronger than the mightiest Maiar, to the point where Sauron at his height was stronger than Melkor at his weakest.

[Jan Mattys]

Ok, I thought you meant D&D levels. Either way you look at it though Ingwe is over leveled; he was high king, but it was outright stated that Feanor was the most powerful of the Children of Illuvater and that Thingol was second (and also the tallest of all the Children of Illuvater). In a different passage it also said Luthien was the greatest of the Elves, so I'm not sure how the works, and Galadriel was said to be second strongest of the Noldor. I really don't think Ingwe is higher than those four, and I would hazard that Fingolfin and Finrod, possibly also Maedhros were stronger than Ingwe as well. I'm also not convinced that Sauron is stronger than Feanor or Thingol (or Turin or Beren for that matter). Also I'm not sure how those levels scale but the Valar weren't that much stronger than the mightiest Maiar, to the point where Sauron at his height was stronger than Melkor at his weakest.

Ingwe was the most blessed of all the children of Iluvatar. Feanor was exceptional in skill and the most gifted of the elves. But being Ingwe the high king of the greatest elves (the vanyar) it makes sense he's more powerful (at least in a setting like tolkien's where right equals might)

As for peaks of power, I'm pretty ok with the idea that everyone has highs and lows... but overall, it makes sense to have a certain level as an indicator. And it is stated everywhere that Melkor was the only one able to rival (or even exceed) Manwe in power. Big good guy vs big bad guy and so on, I suppose :-)

Fingolfin is 130 too, Finwe (Feanor's father) is 140.

So I still think it is accurate. Maybe it is accurate just because it is Ingwe, who is as mythical as a being can be, and effectively a character you will NEVER see around. Mainly, it's there to "cap" Elves at 150, just like Earendil and Hurin are there to "cap" the Humans at 100. The system just seems to hint "You can't be more awesome than that".

As for Luthien... she's listed at 150 too, but I guess that being a Maiar Half-Blood pretty much counts as cheating... :smallbiggrin:

ps: As a last note, I'll add that of course "level" does not equal "power" in a strict sense. Feanor (lvl 130) would have reduced Luthien (150) to a pulp in a straight fight. But "level" in tolkien makes some sense as a sort of "inner light" or "inherent power", or "presence" if you want. A lvl 100 elven astronomer without any kind of military training would still make a lvl 10 human kneel in awe. It's just how Tolkien's setting works.

ps2: English is not my first language, so sorry if the above doesn't make any sense. I swear, in my head it does :smallsmile:

[Drolyt]

Ingwe was the most blessed of all the children of Iluvatar. Feanor was exceptional in skill and the most gifted of the elves. But being Ingwe the high king of the greatest elves (the vanyar) it makes sense he's more powerful (at least in a setting like tolkien's where right equals might)

As for peaks of power, I'm pretty ok with the idea that everyone has highs and lows... but overall, it makes sense to have a certain level as an indicator. And it is stated everywhere that Melkor was the only one able to rival (or even exceed) Manwe in power. Big good guy vs big bad guy and so on, I suppose :-)

Fingolfin is 130 too, Finwe (Feanor's father) is 140.

So I still think it is accurate. Maybe it is accurate just because it is Ingwe, who is as mythical as a being can be, and effectively a character you will NEVER see around. Mainly, it's there to "cap" Elves at 150, just like Earendil and Hurin are there to "cap" the Humans at 100. The system just seems to hint "You can't be more awesome than that".

As for Luthien... she's listed at 150 too, but I guess that being a Maiar Half-Blood pretty much counts as cheating... :smallbiggrin:

ps: As a last note, I'll add that of course "level" does not equal "power" in a strict sense. Feanor (lvl 130) would have reduced Luthien (150) to a pulp in a straight fight. But "level" in tolkien makes some sense as a sort of "inner light" or "inherent power", or "presence" if you want. A lvl 100 elven astronomer without any kind of military training would still make a lvl 10 human kneel in awe. It's just how Tolkien's setting works.

ps2: English is not my first language, so sorry if the above doesn't make any sense. I swear, in my head it does :smallsmile:

First off on your ps2: It makes perfect sense, you speak English very well. I didn't notice any mistakes, but of course I wasn't looking for them. Anyways from the Silmarillion: "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him." Among mortals only Luthien was comparable if you are talking about the "inner light" or "presence" as you put it. The Vanyar are not the mightiest Elves, they were just Manwe's favorites. The Noldor were the most powerful of the three kindreds by a fair bit, being the greatest in lore, in combat, and in craft. In music they were surpassed by the Teleri, though Maglor was held second only to Daeron. But at any rate I don't think Sauron was that much stronger than the strongest Elves; Luthien could cast her spell on both Sauron and Morgoth after all, and there are many vs. threads on the net that suggest Feanor could beat Sauron even if he had his ring. I also don't think that the Valar were that much stronger than the strongest Maiar (Sauron). Finally Manwe and Varda != Morgoth, or at least they don't equal Melkor. Melkor's power was so far beyond the other Valar that according to Morgoth's Ring when they made war upon him for the sake of the Elves they never actually thought they had any chance of winning, and it was explicitly stated that Morgoth's light could daunt even Manwe's eyes. They only won because Morgoth had let so much of his power go out of him, so that it was a huge surprise for both Melkor and Manwe when they realized that the former had become less in stature than the latter. Even if you don't agree with the rest of my reasoning, that last bit at least is beyond doubt. Morgoth's Ring goes so far as to suggest that in the beginning Morgoth and the Maiar that served him could have been masters of all that was done, but that wasn't good enough for Morgoth and he spent himself trying to master the very substance of Arda itself.

[JonestheSpy]

The text I find about Turin's return is:

"In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

So in that version (at least) Turin was still in the Halls at that time.

This sounds like Tolkien was riffing on Norse mythology here - no surprise, as he was so influenced by it in so many other ways.

For those unfamiliar, in Nordic mythology the world ends with a final battle between the gods and their allies versus the frost giants, fire demons, and others. In preparation for the fight, Odin spends his time choosing the greatest human warriors slain in combat, and their souls are taken to Valhalla where the feast all night and fight all day, in preparation for the last battle. So Turin returning from the halls of Mandos for the final battle fits in to that model almost exactly.

[warty goblin]

This sounds like Tolkien was riffing on Norse mythology here - no surprise, as he was so influenced by it in so many other ways.

For those unfamiliar, in Nordic mythology the world ends with a final battle between the gods and their allies versus the frost giants, fire demons, and others. In preparation for the fight, Odin spends his time choosing the greatest human warriors slain in combat, and their souls are taken to Valhalla where the feast all night and fight all day, in preparation for the last battle. So Turin returning from the halls of Mandos for the final battle fits in to that model almost exactly.

Except for bit where the Valar, ya'know, win. It's been a bit since I read up on Ragnarok, but my distinct recollection is that most of the gods met sticky ends, and the last battle was destined to be lost. Fighting it was more for the principle of the matter than anything else.

Interestingly Tolkien changes this in his retelling of the Volsung sagas. In the traditional versions Sigurd is a hero, but that's it. Tolkien specifically promotes him to 'hope of Odin' and says that at Ragnarok he will be able to bring the Aesir victory. In his notes to the text, Christopher Tolkien says he thinks this is specifically done to make Sigurd a Norse Turin, or vice versa.

[Selrahc]

Except for bit where the Valar, ya'know, win. It's been a bit since I read up on Ragnarok, but my distinct recollection is that most of the gods met sticky ends, and the last battle was destined to be lost. Fighting it was more for the principle of the matter than anything else.

It's actually rather more complicated than that. Ragnarok wasn't destined to be lost, it was merely destined to kill almost all of the gods. In the end the forces arrayed against them would be destroyed and the few remaining gods, led by Baldur who would be finally released from Helheim would rule over a new world without the evil that had beset the previous one. Ultimately if the prophecy occurs then the good guys win.

The gods still try to avert ragnarok however. It will mean death for most of them and that is something they would want to escape as long as possible.

[Zevox]

Except for bit where the Valar, ya'know, win. It's been a bit since I read up on Ragnarok, but my distinct recollection is that most of the gods met sticky ends, and the last battle was destined to be lost. Fighting it was more for the principle of the matter than anything else.
Actually, older versions of Dagor Dagorath (Tolkien's "Final Battle") don't end in such a victory for the Valar. One had Manwe's son destroying the world in order to destroy Melkor, for instance.

Zevox

[Knaight]

Yeah Isildur wasn't really supposed to be a bad guy. It doesn't help that in the movie they go out of their way to make him look evil. At any rate there were at least a couple people who could resist the ring. Bombadill was unaffected, and Sam was able to avoid its temptation more easily than any other character. Presumably a being of greater power than Sauron could also avoid the effects, although that is most likely limited to the Valar and maybe two or three of the most powerful elves of the first age.

All of whom are dead, most of whom fell to corruption anyways. Remember Feanor?

[Drolyt]

All of whom are dead, most of whom fell to corruption anyways. Remember Feanor?

Yeah, I was just making a point though. Feanor could probably resist the ring simply by virtue of the fact that his craft was greater than Sauron's, although he was corrupted enough that he might just put the ring to his own use. Other than that Thingol might have been powerful enough, but a similar effect occurred with both Thingol and Feanor and the Silmarils.

[Dacia Brabant]

Ingwe was the most blessed of all the children of Iluvatar. Feanor was exceptional in skill and the most gifted of the elves. But being Ingwe the high king of the greatest elves (the vanyar) it makes sense he's more powerful (at least in a setting like tolkien's where right equals might)

I think another point that works in Ingwe's favor is that he's at least partially based on a critically important deity in Norse religion: Yngvi- (or Ingwine) Freyr, the Aesir or by some accounts Vanir (possible connection to Vanyar?) god of harvests, male fertility and, as the ruler of Alfheim, the god of elves.

There are definitely big differences between the two, but the shared names and roles as rulers of the elves in a "blessed kingdom" indicates to me that Ingwe should be regarded as the greatest of his people. Not necessarily the greatest in combat and skill at arms, which Frey wasn't either, but there are other ways of being great.

[Drolyt]

I think another point that works in Ingwe's favor is that he's at least partially based on a critically important deity in Norse religion: Yngvi- (or Ingwine) Freyr, the Aesir or by some accounts Vanir (possible connection to Vanyar?) god of harvests, male fertility and, as the ruler of Alfheim, the god of elves.

There are definitely big differences between the two, but the shared names and roles as rulers of the elves in a "blessed kingdom" indicates to me that Ingwe should be regarded as the greatest of his people. Not necessarily the greatest in combat and skill at arms, which Frey wasn't either, but there are other ways of being great.

That's probably what he was based on, yes, but how do you get around a quote as rock solid as "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."? So at the very least we have a direct Tokien quote that Feanor, in comparison to any other Elf including Ingwe, was more valourous, more enduring, more beautiful, more understanding, more skillful, stronger, and subtler (and I'm not even sure what that last one was supposed to mean). You just can't get around something like "Mightiest in all parts of body and mind." On the other hand we have Thingol, who, again from the Silmarillion, was "The tallest of all the Children of Illuvatar" and a "high doom was before him". Both of these are clearly of a higher level than Ingwe. There's also Fingolfin, who was mistaken for Orome in his wrath, and Turgon, the light of whose eyes cast a shadow on Morgoth's heart in Valinor.

Edit: It may be that Ingwe was in the beginning apportioned a greater power than Finwe or Elwe (later Thingol), which would explain why he became high king. Feanor was after all not born until after the kingship had been divided, but it is clear that to him was given the greatest gifts of all the Children of Illuvatar. On the other hand Ingwe dwelt in the bliss of the blessed realm, while Thingol ruled a mighty kingdom in middle-earth, and so Thingol's power grew while Ingwe's did not (it was considered in The History of Middle-Earth that bringing the Elve's to Aman was a mistake to begin with, an opinion shared in universe by Ulmo. Tolkien never outright states that it was though). Same for Turgon, who ruled Gondolin and Fingolfin, who fought in the bitter wars with Morgoth.

[Jan Mattys]

One thing we can all agree about, though:

Fingolfin is the embodiment of badassery :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

One thing we can all agree about, though:

Fingolfin is the embodiment of badassery :smallbiggrin:

Nah. He was a wimp compared to Hurin! (The latter being a man who held off an entire army alone to allow his allies to escape, kept fighting even after his axe had melted under the corrosive blood of trolls, and was only finally brought down because he had so many chopped-off Orc arms clinging to him that he couldn't stand any more...and he was just a normal human, not a prince of the Firstborn!).

[faceroll]

1-The enemy had flying spies. Eagles don't really have a lot of space to hide. Once detected, they would have all the Nazgulls and their mothers after them. On the other hand, halflings are masters of hiding in the ground, several times escaping Sauron's ground forces thanks to their small size.

Didn't the book also say the hobbits has a sort of cloaking effect vs. sauron? They were a forgotten race in a remote and boring part of Middle Earth, and were small, weak, and useless. Sauron had no reason to care about them. They also had strong will saves and simple interests, which kept the ring from corrupting them as fast as it did men. Sending everyone flying into mount doom mounted on quasi-celestial giant eagles would have REALLY tipped Sauron off to what was up. In order to defeat Sauron, they had to prevent him from knowing what Good was really playing for. So it was a shell game.


You're still forgetting about Mt. Doom's anti aircraft installations.
If your eagles don't come equipped with flares, you're toasted.

The stacked missile turrets are a bitch. If you d-web em, the op is pretty easy.

[Drolyt]

One thing we can all agree about, though:

Fingolfin is the embodiment of badassery :smallbiggrin:


Nah. He was a wimp compared to Hurin! (The latter being a man who held off an entire army alone to allow his allies to escape, kept fighting even after his axe had melted under the corrosive blood of trolls, and was only finally brought down because he had so many chopped-off Orc arms clinging to him that he couldn't stand any more...and he was just a normal human, not a prince of the Firstborn!).

Well, comparing Fingolfin to Hurin isn't really fair. They are both embodiments of badassery, it's just that Hurin is, well, Hurin.


Didn't the book also say the hobbits has a sort of cloaking effect vs. sauron? They were a forgotten race in a remote and boring part of Middle Earth, and were small, weak, and useless. Sauron had no reason to care about them. They also had strong will saves and simple interests, which kept the ring from corrupting them as fast as it did men. Sending everyone flying into mount doom mounted on quasi-celestial giant eagles would have REALLY tipped Sauron off to what was up. In order to defeat Sauron, they had to prevent him from knowing what Good was really playing for. So it was a shell game.
I'm not sure I'd call it a cloaking device, but that's kinda right. The hobbits actually got caught by Orcs a couple times but nobody thought anything was up. Sauron assumed the ring would go to Minas Tirith with Aragorn. If he saw Giant Eagles flying towards Mount Doom it might be different...

The stacked missile turrets are a bitch. If you d-web em, the op is pretty easy.
Nonsense, you are forgetting about Morder's Stealth Fighter's and Sauron's Star Wars Installation. Nothing is getting anywhere near Mount Doom without disabling those as well.

[Dacia Brabant]

That's probably what he was based on, yes, but how do you get around a quote as rock solid as "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."? So at the very least we have a direct Tokien quote that Feanor, in comparison to any other Elf including Ingwe, was more valourous, more enduring, more beautiful, more understanding, more skillful, stronger, and subtler (and I'm not even sure what that last one was supposed to mean). You just can't get around something like "Mightiest in all parts of body and mind." On the other hand we have Thingol, who, again from the Silmarillion, was "The tallest of all the Children of Illuvatar" and a "high doom was before him". Both of these are clearly of a higher level than Ingwe. There's also Fingolfin, who was mistaken for Orome in his wrath, and Turgon, the light of whose eyes cast a shadow on Morgoth's heart in Valinor.

Edit: It may be that Ingwe was in the beginning apportioned a greater power than Finwe or Elwe (later Thingol), which would explain why he became high king. Feanor was after all not born until after the kingship had been divided, but it is clear that to him was given the greatest gifts of all the Children of Illuvatar. On the other hand Ingwe dwelt in the bliss of the blessed realm, while Thingol ruled a mighty kingdom in middle-earth, and so Thingol's power grew while Ingwe's did not (it was considered in The History of Middle-Earth that bringing the Elve's to Aman was a mistake to begin with, an opinion shared in universe by Ulmo. Tolkien never outright states that it was though). Same for Turgon, who ruled Gondolin and Fingolfin, who fought in the bitter wars with Morgoth.

These are all great points but two things: first and most importantly, every single elf you mentioned contrary to Ingwe turned out to be a failed leader in some way or another, and second, we just don't know enough about Ingwe to make judgments about his ability other than he must be High King of all the Elves for a good reason.

Feanor was the best in all those respects that you cite, but he had HORRIBLE judgment. He was guilty of the Original Sin in Middle-earth's mythography and his actions directly led to the downfall of his house.

Elu Thingol was decent for a long time but his covetousness toward the Silmaril repeated Feanor's sins and led to the same result--death for himself, his kin and his kingdom.

Finwe was selfish for wanting a second wife after Miriel died (elves are monogamous even after death since they reincarnate--although Miriel was likewise selfish for refusing to ever leave the Halls of Mandos), which caused the rift in his family that led to so much strife and grief. Not really a failure as a ruler so much as a head of household.

Fingolfin followed his half-brother too far down the path of doom, and even though his duel with Morgoth was heroic it was also folly that left the exiled Noldor without the strong leader they needed after the disastrous War of Sudden Flame. With the elves hopelessly divided it was only a matter of time until they were each worn down.

Turgon is the best of the leaders you mentioned, he did everything he was supposed to do, he just had bad luck with respect to Hurin and Maeglin so I can't really fault him for faltering out of mercy (likewise with Finrod sacrificing himself for Beren, although his oath to leave no kingdom for a son to inherit was selfish). But Gondolin still fell.

As far as I can tell Ingwe and Olwe are the only unfallen lords of the Firstborn, as even Finarfin followed Feanor up until the Kinslaying. The others may have been more skillful, but those three were the wisest and that counts for more than power.

[Drolyt]

These are all great points but two things: first and most importantly, every single elf you mentioned contrary to Ingwe turned out to be a failed leader in some way or another, and second, we just don't know enough about Ingwe to make judgments about his ability other than he must be High King of all the Elves for a good reason.

Feanor was the best in all those respects that you cite, but he had HORRIBLE judgment. He was guilty of the Original Sin in Middle-earth's mythography and his actions directly led to the downfall of his house.

Elu Thingol was decent for a long time but his covetousness toward the Silmaril repeated Feanor's sins and led to the same result--death for himself, his kin and his kingdom.

Finwe was selfish for wanting a second wife after Miriel died (elves are monogamous even after death since they reincarnate--although Miriel was likewise selfish for refusing to ever leave the Halls of Mandos), which caused the rift in his family that led to so much strife and grief. Not really a failure as a ruler so much as a head of household.

Fingolfin followed his half-brother too far down the path of doom, and even though his duel with Morgoth was heroic it was also folly that left the exiled Noldor without the strong leader they needed after the disastrous War of Sudden Flame. With the elves hopelessly divided it was only a matter of time until they were each worn down.

Turgon is the best of the leaders you mentioned, he did everything he was supposed to do, he just had bad luck with respect to Hurin and Maeglin so I can't really fault him for faltering out of mercy (likewise with Finrod sacrificing himself for Beren, although his oath to leave no kingdom for a son to inherit was selfish). But Gondolin still fell.

As far as I can tell Ingwe and Olwe are the only unfallen lords of the Firstborn, as even Finarfin followed Feanor up until the Kinslaying. The others may have been more skillful, but those three were the wisest and that counts for more than power.

Perhaps, but wisdom has nothing to do with level or power, which is what I was arguing for. At any rate after the death of Finwe you can only really fault his sons, who were the Princes in charge at the time. Their sons were forced to hold their peace and not oppose their fathers, so you can't really say that Fingon, Turgon, Maedhros, Finrod, Maglor, or Galadriel to name a few were responsible for what later happened in Middle-Earth, since it was not their decision to leave and they couldn't very well forsake their kin. The same could arguably be said of Fingolfin, but it was his stubbornness that led so many of his people to death crossing to Middle-Earth. As for Finwe himself you could blame the Valar for that, since it was Manwe's decision to allow Finwe to remarry; he would not have done so if they had held it lawless. Finally as for Feanor he gets a lot of flack he probably doesn't deserve. He pulled some crap and was the person most personally guilty for the first kinslaying, but it is arguable that Morgoth did more evil to him than any other of the Elves or the Valar (but not men; that goes to Hurin Thalion, who unlike the Elves proved faithful despite all that Morgoth could do to him and his kin). Feanor's grief was more for his father and king than for the Silmarils; he swore his oath for the jewels because those he could reclaim; his father he could not.

[Dacia Brabant]

Perhaps, but wisdom has nothing to do with level or power, which is what I was arguing for. At any rate after the death of Finwe you can only really fault his sons, who were the Princes in charge at the time. Their sons were forced to hold their peace and not oppose their fathers, so you can't really say that Fingon, Turgon, Maedhros, Finrod, Maglor, or Galadriel to name a few were responsible for what later happened in Middle-Earth, since it was not their decision to leave and they couldn't very well forsake their kin.

You can say that about the children of Feanor and Fingolfin, but not of Finrod and Galadriel who left Aman while their repentant father Finarfin stayed behind. Now in some of the History of Middle-earth source material (sorry I don't remember the citation), Galadriel gets absolved of the stain of the Kinslaying and was not under the Doom of Mandos because she and Celeborn left independently of all that mayhem to set up their own little kingdom, but she still had that prideful desire to rule and that's why she was tested with the Ring. I don't know of anything that similarly absolved Finrod of his choice.


As for Finwe himself you could blame the Valar for that, since it was Manwe's decision to allow Finwe to remarry; he would not have done so if they had held it lawless.

Which shows that even the best of the Valar aren't infallible. It's not that it was lawless, but it was contrary to what Iluvatar established by nature so it's not surprising that it was an exception never to be repeated.


Finally as for Feanor he gets a lot of flack he probably doesn't deserve. He pulled some crap and was the person most personally guilty for the first kinslaying, but it is arguable that Morgoth did more evil to him than any other of the Elves or the Valar (but not men; that goes to Hurin Thalion, who unlike the Elves proved faithful despite all that Morgoth could do to him and his kin). Feanor's grief was more for his father and king than for the Silmarils; he swore his oath for the jewels because those he could reclaim; his father he could not.

Well it's not like his father's soul was destroyed or that it passed outside Arda like those of humans, but I do see what you're saying. It doesn't justify any of what he did (a little more than "some crap" I would say) but I can understand and feel some sympathy for him.

[Drolyt]

You can say that about the children of Feanor and Fingolfin, but not of Finrod and Galadriel who left Aman while their repentant father Finarfin stayed behind. Now in some of the History of Middle-earth source material (sorry I don't remember the citation), Galadriel gets absolved of the stain of the Kinslaying and was not under the Doom of Mandos because she and Celeborn left independently of all that mayhem to set up their own little kingdom, but she still had that prideful desire to rule and that's why she was tested with the Ring. I don't know of anything that similarly absolved Finrod of his choice.



Which shows that even the best of the Valar aren't infallible. It's not that it was lawless, but it was contrary to what Iluvatar established by nature so it's not surprising that it was an exception never to be repeated.



Well it's not like his father's soul was destroyed or that it passed outside Arda like those of humans, but I do see what you're saying. It doesn't justify any of what he did (a little more than "some crap" I would say) but I can understand and feel some sympathy for him.

I believe it was Unfinished Tales that had the latter developments of Galadriel's story. It's not clear what version was supposed to be final, but it seems that Galadriel passed over the sea before all the other stuff happened because she wanted a land of her own. It's also not clear whether Celeborn was from Aman or Beleriand. As for Finrod I believe he went because he was friends with Fingon and Turgon and didn't want to forsake his kin, since the greater part of the Noldor were leaving (Tirion must have been a very lonely city since the Vanyar and most of the Noldor were gone). As for the final bit I don't think reincarnation entailed being fully restored, but being reborn in a new body, so in any real sense Finwe was gone for good. As a side note I have to mention that I find a few things about Tolkien's Mythos odd. If it were me then Ingwe forsaking Tirion would be to forsake his claim to kingship, or at least his claim to kingship over those Elves who chose to live in Middle-Earth rather than Aman, since by removing yourself from worldly affairs you remove any right you have to govern them. In my mind Thingol and his heirs were the ones who could truly claim lordship over the Elves of Middle-Earth, but that line is now only in Aragorn's descendants and at any rate most of the Elves left.