A Theory About Redcloak

[Starscream]

A possibility has just occurred to me. Redcloak has found the phylactery. And he didn't tell Xykon.

Really, he has what he wanted now; a nation by goblinoids, for goblinoids. If one of his many minions did locate the thing, and handed it over to him, what does he stand to gain by letting Xykon know? I see two possibilities:

Xykon gets the phylactery: He demands that Redcloak immediately pack up and leave, leaving his new nation behind him without its high level characters to defend it. Alternately, he forces to goblins to come too, and there is no more goblin nation. Redcloak knows full well that [SoD Spoilers:] the ritual doesn't work the way Xykon thinks it does and he will eventually need to get rid of him somehow. That's too dangerous, and even if he succeeds goblin kind probably won't be any better off than they are right now.

Xykon doesn't get the phylactery: That's the key to his immortality, right there. He needs it. He will remain in Azure City until he finds it. It's not like he's getting any older, after all. Redcloak gets to run his shiny new country in the mean time. Of course, Xykon will eventually grow bored of looking and start executing goblins for fun, but right now Redcloak has a whole army at his command, and Xykon has no idea what will happen to him if he gets destroyed again. He is more vulnerable than he has been in decades. Still an epic level threat, of course, but not Invincible. Redcloak is smart, he's got time, and he's got the resources to rid himself of his lich problem forever.

Even if Redcloak doesn't have the phylactery yet, if he should happen to get it I don't see why he should bother handing it over.

[ThePhantasm]

I could see that being the case.

I don't think Xykon is going to find his phylactery. Either a) Redcloak has it in secret or b) the attack of the Resistance and the Elves is going to force the baddies out of Azure City before they can find it or c) both of the above. Everyone acts like finding the phylactery is a foregone conclusion, but I think something is about to kick in that will get the plot moving without the phylactery.

[veti]

I theorised a couple of weeks ago that Redcloak would find the phylactery and either simply not tell Xykon about it, or try to palm him off with a fake. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the first scenario has already happened.

The phylactery is the only real hold that Redcloak has over Xykon; I think he'll try to use it any way he can. I think he's reaching the point now, if he hasn't already, where X becomes "hated overlord" rather than "dangerous ally", and Redcloak will be looking for any advantage he can get.

And I think Xykon knows that, too...

[the_tick_rules]

Possible. as soon as he gets the phalactery xykon wants to abandon gobotopia to hunt the next gate. one eye doesn't want that so much.

[factotum]

I don't think Xykon is going to find his phylactery. Either a) Redcloak has it in secret or b) the attack of the Resistance and the Elves is going to force the baddies out of Azure City before they can find it or c) both of the above. Everyone acts like finding the phylactery is a foregone conclusion, but I think something is about to kick in that will get the plot moving without the phylactery.

I don't think that's a useful direction for the plot to go. If Xykon's phylactery remains lost then he's still effectively immortal--he'll just regenerate wherever the phylactery is if his body is destroyed. It would be far better if the phylactery were unequivocally destroyed, and it has to be found for that to happen.

[CletusMusashi]

What would the point in a fake be? If Xykon thinks it's real, he'll do exactly the same things he would is it WERE real. How is this advantageous?

[Jan Mattys]

I think the most important question related to this discussion is simple:

(spoilered SoD related question below)
Has Left-Eye Redcloak grown the balls to hide the phylactery and lie about such an important thing to the - lately quite pissed off and dangerous - Xykon ?

My answer is "sadly, no".

[hamishspence]

Redcloak's already lying to Xykon- and has been for a while:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html

The question is whether he'd lie to Xykon about something this important.

[Jan Mattys]

Redcloak's already lying to Xykon- and has been for a while:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html

The question is whether he'd lie to Xykon about something this important.

That's exactly what I wrote.
Redcloak might be willing to lie to Xykon about things the lich would consider uninportant or just annoying, but there's a high chance that its reaction to a lie about the phylactery would have a lot of fire and/or lightning embedded in it :smallbiggrin:

[Turkish Delight]

What would the point in a fake be? If Xykon thinks it's real, he'll do exactly the same things he would is it WERE real. How is this advantageous?

If Xykon is incapable of detecting his real phylactory, then Redcloak can destroy it at his leisure without bringing Xykon's retribution down on him, or possibly Xykon even knowing anything is wrong. I highly doubt a fake would work, however.

[factotum]

If Xykon is incapable of detecting his real phylactory

My guess is that even if Xykon doesn't know if an object is his phylactery or not, he'd definitely notice if it didn't have any of the spells he cast on it present--and Redcloak isn't an arcane caster, he can't replicate those.

[Turkish Delight]

My guess is that even if Xykon doesn't know if an object is his phylactery or not, he'd definitely notice if it didn't have any of the spells he cast on it present--and Redcloak isn't an arcane caster, he can't replicate those.

Yeah, I know. Just answering the question of what advantage Redcloak might find in convincing Xykon a fake phylactory is the real one. I don't see any way Redcloak could actually pull it off.

[veti]

A fake phylactery would be a trap for Xykon. The idea would be that he'd put it somewhere safe (probably not give it back to Redcloak), then go back to his normal and, frankly, high-risk behaviour.

Without the phylactery he'd have been destroyed in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and he came within about 5 H.P. of the same fate at Soon's Gate. If he goes charging into Girard's Gate with his normal impatience, and without realising that his phylactery is a fake, there's got to be a fair chance that it could finish him once and for all. Especially if Redcloak turns on him in the battle. The point of giving him a fake would be to trick him into charging headlong into that position.

Whether Redcloak could pull it off, or whether he'd have the guts to try, however... those are quite different questions.

[derfenrirwolv]

Its a possibility, but its a very, very dangerous game.

Xykon WILL eventually get bored and or impatient enough to start killing hobgoblins wholsale as motivation.

[licoot]

surely Redcloak could use it to get rid of xykon, he strikes me as the kind of person who just ditches things he doesn't need or want. Redcloak will know this so if he likes his new colony would be interested in retaining the power and keeping xykon busy.

[Fish]

It's an interesting but unlikely possibility. No doubt Tsukiko, hoping to curry favor with Xykon, has her own minions searching also. It might well be a race which one finds it first, for their own reasons.

Redcloak hasn't told the goblins what they're searching for, apparently not forgetting that goblins tend to be Evil.

The question, of course, is how RC destroys such a thing? He could get a large hungry monster to eat it, I suppose, if only they had one...

[NerfTW]

I doubt it. Hobgoblins and wights are probably not going to hold up well under torture, and you can be sure Xykon is being as threatening as possible with these guys. Not to mention a lot of them seem to like Xykon.

I'm sure he told the searchers what they're looking for. He didn't say it in the speech because honestly, would you make a public announcement while traders are in the city that your biggest weapon is at a weak point?

[John Cribati]

I theorised a couple of weeks ago that Redcloak would find the phylactery and either simply not tell Xykon about it, or try to palm him off with a fake. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the first scenario has already happened.

The phylactery is the only real hold that Redcloak has over Xykon; I think he'll try to use it any way he can. I think he's reaching the point now, if he hasn't already, where X becomes "hated overlord" rather than "dangerous ally", and Redcloak will be looking for any advantage he can get.

And I think Xykon knows that, too...

:redcloak:: I have your phylactery, Ha Ha! Now you must obey me-
:xykon:: Meteor Swarm.

[Snake-Aes]

:redcloak:: I have your phylactery, Ha Ha! Now you must obey me-
:xykon:: Meteor Swarm.

happened already.

[The Extinguisher]

The issue of Redcloak having power over Xykon because he has the phylactery came up once in SoD.

For less than a page.
Bascially, it doesn't matter.


And I don't think Redcloak is going to turn on Xykon anytime soon, least of ways by keeping the phylactery.

[Gift Jeraff]

My personal theory with the phylactery is that Jirix will get it, as Redcloak is more for the sake of the Plan, whereas he trusts Jirix more for his greater well-being. Also for the sake of character redesigns. :smalltongue:

[Dr.Epic]

Why would Xykon kick Red Cloak out? He's the only one that knows the gate procedure.

[veti]

The issue of Redcloak having power over Xykon because he has the phylactery came up once in SoD.

For less than a page.
Bascially, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, but a lot has changed since then. Redcloak now has an alternative to the original plan. And he has a whole lot more reasons to hate and fear Xykon.

I'm not saying I think he will turn on Xykon. But it's become a much, much more attractive proposition than it was in SoD, when The Plan was all he had.

[Gift Jeraff]

Why would Xykon kick Red Cloak out? He's the only one that knows the gate procedure.
Not sure if you were replying to me, but I wasn't saying Redcloak would get kicked out, just that he would not get to hold the phylactery anymore. Even then, the knowledge of the Gate ritual is in the Crimson Mantle, so any goblinoid can gain it. As for whether or not the Dark One would let the new high priest aid Xykon, I think so--I think Right-Eye hit the spot when he said the Dark One cared more about vengeance than anything else, so he would still continue to let his followers work for Xykon so long as, in the end, he gains control of a Gate.

[The Extinguisher]

Yeah, but a lot has changed since then. Redcloak now has an alternative to the original plan. And he has a whole lot more reasons to hate and fear Xykon.

I'm not saying I think he will turn on Xykon. But it's become a much, much more attractive proposition than it was in SoD, when The Plan was all he had.

I still disagree. We see in 701, even after establishing their own freaking nation, Redcloak is still trying to justify himself to his little brother. I don't think it's possible for Redcloak to go back now.

SoD spoilers of course that would leave some very good guns lying around, so I think Redcloak will finally have enough with Xykon when something comes up regarding his niece. But not now. Not over the phylactery he was only wearing for convenience sake.

[Zxo]

I wonder... would Xykon know if his phylactery was destroyed? I mean know by magical/telepathical means, without seeing it happen or learning about it from someone. He said in SoD that his soul is not in the phylactery as long as he's (un)alive, so there shouldn't be any sensation of his soul transferring from the phylactery into his skeletal body.

If he wouldn't "feel" the destruction of the phylactery and could stay unaware of it, destroying it in secret would be a pretty safe way of betraying him. He would learn only when dying.

[Turkish Delight]

:redcloak:: I have your phylactery, Ha Ha! Now you must obey me-
:xykon:: Meteor Swarm.

No, it doesn't work like that. Redcloak has some leverage over Xykon not because he can wave it around and control him through threats, but because if Xykon ever kicks the bucket and Redcloak is feeling especially disgruntled, Redcloak has it within his power to smash the phylactery to itty bitty pieces. Redcloak would have to put up a pretense of loyalty until then for it to work, of course, but once Xykon is down, Redcloak knows he can put him down for the count if needed.

[factotum]

Redcloak now has an alternative to the original plan.

And if he follows that alternative, he has to admit to himself that all the horrible things he's done in the Plan's name have been pointless...and as Xykon pointed out in SoD, he REALLY doesn't have the guts for that.

Same thing applies to your argument, Turkish Delight--Xykon is the only high-level arcane caster who's willing to go along with Redcloak's plan, and despite him having had ample opportunity to dump him in favour of someone else (particularly after they fled the Dungeon of Dorukan), he hasn't done so. It will take something really spectacular for Redcloak ever to turn on Xykon, and I don't think it's happened yet.

[John Cribati]

No, it doesn't work like that. Redcloak has some leverage over Xykon not because he can wave it around and control him through threats, but because if Xykon ever kicks the bucket and Redcloak is feeling especially disgruntled, Redcloak has it within his power to smash the phylactery to itty bitty pieces. Redcloak would have to put up a pretense of loyalty until then for it to work, of course, but once Xykon is down, Redcloak knows he can put him down for the count if needed.

We still have no idea how powerful the wards on the phylactery are. It could possibly survive a spell that could kill Redcloak. You think Xykon would practically put himself at the mercy of someone else without having a backup plan?

Okay, this is Xykon we're talking about, so that last sentence is a distinct possibility.

But still.

[whitelaughter]

Onecloak already thinks he knows how to destroy the phylactery - dump in the snarl. So he might well do that, thinking it will obliterate Xykon: and when it doesn't (due to it landing in the other world) create a fake to give to the lich.

He wouldn't need to turn on Xykon, just play along and wait for Xykon to get himself destroyed.

The question is, would Redcloak consider recruiting Tsukiko as replacement arcane caster? She has the skills, but might be able to reverse engineer the clerical half of the ritual as well; a dangerous ploy.

[Optimystik]

Tsukiko hates Redcloak and loves Xykon - her assistance is extremely unlikely.

[factotum]

Onecloak already thinks he knows how to destroy the phylactery - dump in the snarl. So he might well do that, thinking it will obliterate Xykon

He already knows that destroying the phylactery won't destroy Xykon, because he threatened to do so in SoD; Xykon pointed out that his soul wasn't in the phylactery, and if Redcloak so much as scratched it he'd rip out his brother's spine and strangle him with it.

[Math_Mage]

He already knows that destroying the phylactery won't destroy Xykon, because he threatened to do so in SoD; Xykon pointed out that his soul wasn't in the phylactery, and if Redcloak so much as scratched it he'd rip out his brother's spine and strangle him with it.

But if the phylactery is destroyed and then Xykon is destroyed...

(of course, that's moot, since dumping the phylactery in the Snarl won't destroy it.)

[Fish]

Tsukiko hates Redcloak and loves Xykon - her assistance is extremely unlikely.
At the moment, yes. But things change.
1. Tsukiko thinks Xykon will love her for all she does. How disillusioned will she be when she finds out he doesn't care for her at all?

2. Redcloak is clearly Lawful Evil. Xykon is Chaotic Evil. Doesn't it stand to reason that Tsukiko, goth chick of the undead and general misanthrope, is Neutral Evil? As an arcane-divine caster she could be perfectly poised between the two sides, or even stand on her own ... all it takes is a tiny nudge to take her out of Xykon's orbit. "Heaven hath no rage, like love to hatred turned, nor hell a fury, like a woman scorned."

3. One member of Team Evil of each evil alignment would make the endgame with the fiend coalition much more interesting...

[factotum]

But if the phylactery is destroyed and then Xykon is destroyed...


Well, of course that would work, but the person I was responding to said clearly that Redcloak might think destroying the phylactery would also obliterate Xykon, and we know Redcloak doesn't think anything of the kind. Therefore he would only attempt to destroy the phylactery if Xykon's body was already destroyed, or if he had a cast-iron plan for how to do that himself after the phylactery was gone.

[Ancalagon]

2. Redcloak is clearly Lawful Evil. Xykon is Chaotic Evil. Doesn't it stand to reason that Tsukiko, goth chick of the undead and general misanthrope, is Neutral Evil? As an arcane-divine caster she could be perfectly poised between the two sides, or even stand on her own ... all it takes is a tiny nudge to take her out of Xykon's orbit. "Heaven hath no rage, like love to hatred turned, nor hell a fury, like a woman scorned."[/spoiler]

Given her reaction to the job-papers and how she demanded punishment from Xykon for Redcloaks attempt to kill her, I'd rather assume she is lawful.

[Fish]

She didn't exactly uphold her bargain to defend Azure City in exchange for a reduced sentence. That doesn't scream Lawful to me.