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View Full Version : 4e-The Battlemind (Aka, the Psionic Warrior)



Asbestos
2010-02-08, 10:25 PM
Apparently no one has yet commented on the DDI peak at the Battlemind class?

Anyway, here's the link:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drdd/2010FebruaryA

I'm not really sure how I feel about it. It seems to be a more mobile fighter to me and not much more, though I haven't read it over enough yet.

Tengu_temp
2010-02-08, 10:54 PM
Some info for those of us who don't have DDI?

Asbestos
2010-02-08, 11:13 PM
The Battlemind is kind of like the Warden in that it has at-wills that trigger when marked creatures do something such as shift or damage an ally. The at-will close burst 3 marking power can be augmented with 1 PP in order to mark two creatures instead of one. But, the "if the enemy shifts" power is a weak "shift one square too" and the "if they damage an ally" power is "they take equal force/psychic damage"

As a class feature the "Quick Battlemind" build (the one shown in the article) can use the "Speed of Thought" encounter power which is triggered when Initiative is rolled (aka, every encounter always) The power allows the Battlemind to move three + Cha modifier squares as a free action, even when surprised. This feature can be enhanced by the following feat in paragon tier:

Linebreaker
Prerequisite: 11th level, battlemind, speed of
thought power
Benefit: When you use your speed of thought, you
can enter an enemy’s space. Doing so ends the movement.
You must then slide the enemy 1 square.

I'm not really sure how useful that is myself... but I suppose if you combine it with this heroic tier feat:

Improved Speed of Thought
Prerequisite: Battlemind, speed of thought power
Benefit: When you use your speed of thought, you
can move 2 additional squares.

It means your Battlemind could move pretty far and um... overextend himself? Again, I don't see the value.


As the Psion and Ardent the Battlemind has Power Points, At-wills, Daily, and Utility powers and no encounter powers. All attacks are CON vs (generally) AC.

Excession
2010-02-09, 12:11 AM
I like the look of it myself, but I'm a fan of defenders in general. Marking is like a Swordmage in that it's mark and forget, punishment damage is Melee 1 (hence the shift as Opportunity Action) but is guaranteed hit like a Paladin. Con as primary stat supports having a lot of HP and surges.

From a brief glance the powers look decent, with many dailies giving a stance that boosts OAs in various ways. Lots of at-will utilities, like the "Feather Step" Utility 2 which lets you ignore difficult terrain and walk on water. Swordmage mobility, or even more, in scale armour.

Mando Knight
2010-02-09, 12:47 AM
and the "if they damage an ally" power is "they take equal force/psychic damage"

Note that this is potentially the most powerful Defender retribution power so far. Red Dragon tries to go OMNOMNOM on your Rogue buddy? It takes an equal amount of auto-hit psi/force damage. If you can combine that with abilities to lock Brutes, Skirmishers, and Soldiers into place or chase them down when they run off, your targets can't fight back if they want to live. That "4d12+Helluva lot of damage" at-will is suddenly second-guessed.

1of3
2010-02-09, 01:35 AM
Note that this is potentially the most powerful Defender retribution power so far. Red Dragon tries to go OMNOMNOM on your Rogue buddy?

Trying is not enough. The dragon really has to nomnom the rogue. All the other defenders punish enemies for attempting to nomnom (i.e. attack rolls, whether they hit or not). Battlemind's Mind Spike only works if actual damage was dealt.

Therefore it approximately works half the time. You might want to look at damage dealt divided by 2.

Artanis
2010-02-09, 01:37 AM
It looks very, very "sticky". It looks like it'll do a good job of keeping enemies from being able to misbehave, and severely punishing them if they manage to do so anyways.

Twisted Eye in particular struck me as being really slick. "Oh, sure, mister big smashy melee baddie, go right ahead and charge into my friends. What's that? You're going to stay away from them and hang out with me because you don't want the to-hit penalty? Aww, that's so nice of you!"

Gralamin
2010-02-09, 01:42 AM
I like the sample build, I'm just not sure how good it is. An awful lot of the Psionic classes focus on movement though, so I think a different play style then normal is needed to use them to their full extent.

Edea
2010-02-09, 04:39 AM
I'm gonna wait until I see the full PH3 version before passing judgment on it, but CharOp apparently has issues with the class (the ones they pointed out from preview material, in particular Blurred Step, have me worried; slightly OT, but Runepriest on the other hand is (apparently) -beastly-).

Xallace
2010-02-09, 07:41 AM
So we have a CON primary, CHA or WIS secondary psionic defender. Augmentable Weapon powers make up the main front of the class. Typical weapon proficiencies, decent armor proficiencies.

Decent Armor and Con main means that the guy's personal defenses should be pretty awesome, though from a brief skimming it appears that this is balanced out by a low direct damage output; though I noticed Mind Spike (the "equal damage" class feature) and several other basically force and enemy to attack; so the low direct damage may be offset by higher potential indirect damage.

Fluff-wise it looks pretty sweet. And it's interesting to see another class for which Half-Elf has two main stats. Weird how they're kinda psionic now, what with the Ardent as well (and now that I think about it, Hobgoblins are +Con/Cha as well... well, this is gonna be strange for my campaign when PHBIII comes out).

Kesnit
2010-02-09, 08:00 AM
I got a chance to play one (autobuilt by the Character Creator) last Sunday.

I like the ability to augment At-Wills with PP. (I know that is part of being psionic, but I still like it.) It seems to be intended for lock-down, as being in the correct stance (which is trigger by assorted dailies) will do additional damage (and sometimes a status effect or forced movement) on AoO's when a marked enemy moves away from you without shifting. (The powers specifically exclude shifting.)


I like the look of it myself, but I'm a fan of defenders in general. Marking is like a Swordmage in that it's mark and forget,

No, it isn't. Marks only come in (at least at low levels - we were LVL 5), when the enemy is adjacent to the Battlemind. If an enemy moves/gets moved away, your mark will not trigger.


Note that this is potentially the most powerful Defender retribution power so far. Red Dragon tries to go OMNOMNOM on your Rogue buddy? It takes an equal amount of auto-hit psi/force damage.

It only kicks in if the marked enemy makes an attack that does not include the BM as a target. (Not sure if you have to be adjacent, but I believe so.) Also, as was pointed out, the enemy attack has to do damage. If an attack only gives a status effect, the power does nothing. So it is a lot less useful than it at first appears.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-09, 08:21 AM
Also, as was pointed out, the enemy attack has to do damage. If an attack only gives a status effect, the power does nothing. So it is a lot less useful than it at first appears.
Just pointing out that it's pretty rare for a standard action attack to cause a status effect and no damage.

Siegel
2010-02-09, 08:27 AM
It looks very, very "sticky". It looks like it'll do a good job of keeping enemies from being able to misbehave, and severely punishing them if they manage to do so anyways.


Strange, CharOp at WOTCs seems to think Battleminds are completly unsticky...

I'll have to wait and see one played (sadly that won't happen)

Kesnit
2010-02-09, 08:52 AM
Just pointing out that it's pretty rare for a standard action attack to cause a status effect and no damage.

Rare, but it can happen. I was getting all excited to FINALLY use the Mind Spike. Then the DM gave the result and I sank back into my chair... :smallfrown:


Strange, CharOp at WOTCs seems to think Battleminds are completly unsticky...

I'll have to wait and see one played (sadly that won't happen)

I haven't seen WotC CharOp, but I agree that they aren't sticky. All an enemy controller or leader has to do is shift a marked enemy 1 square away from the BM, and all effects of the mark are lost. On the "marked" enemy's next turn, they are free to move away and attack whoever with no consequence.

Artanis
2010-02-09, 12:13 PM
Strange, CharOp at WOTCs seems to think Battleminds are completly unsticky...

I'll have to wait and see one played (sadly that won't happen)

Knowing my talents for optimization, if I think something is "sticky", there's a good chance it's made of teflon coated in WD-40 :smalltongue:



Edit: Also, there's a good chance I'm misremembering what the usual definition of "sticky" is as well.

Mando Knight
2010-02-09, 12:22 PM
I haven't seen WotC CharOp, but I agree that they aren't sticky. All an enemy controller or leader has to do is shift a marked enemy 1 square away from the BM, and all effects of the mark are lost. On the "marked" enemy's next turn, they are free to move away and attack whoever with no consequence.

Shift? Slide will work, but shifting 1 won't. The Battlemind's counter-shift ability is an OA, letting him use it and Mind Spike on the same turn. (And if the enemy gets a shift from one of its allies, possibly shifting twice on the turn)

If the enemy misses the Battlemind's friend, then Mind Spike wasn't needed at all. Mind Spike punishes the enemy's success. Its failure is punishment enough on its own.

Artanis
2010-02-09, 01:08 PM
*looks through the Battlemind article again*


Basically, what made me think it was "sticky" was that the combination of Controller-y stuff and Fighter-esque effects causes this sort of sequence:


--The Battlemind uses status effects to make the enemy unable to move (or at least unable to both move and attack) in the first place.
--Even if the enemy can both move and attack, it can't shift because the Battlemind will just shift after it.
--Even if the enemy decides not to shift, the Battlemind will make it really, really regret moving without shifting.
--Even if the enemy does get away, the Battlemind winds up right next to it again anyways.
--Even if the enemy does get away and manage to stay away, it doesn't want to do so because it STILL gets punished for it.
--Even if the enemy doesn't get punished, it still doesn't want to do so because it can take some big-time penalties that make it pointless.

So sure, the Battlemind can't do a hell of a lot to an enemy that gets through all of that...but the enemy has to get through all of that first.


Of course, I'm almost certainly using the wrong definition of "sticky" because CharOp praises the Fighter for being the most "sticky" while completely and utterly ignoring any non-damage-related means of being a Defender. Beyond that though, it's also quite likely that I'm simply missing something, over/underestimating things, or both.

Either way, that's my 2cp :smallredface:

Yakk
2010-02-09, 01:27 PM
The opponent shifts to a square not adjacent to you.

Battlemind is forced to use their OA in order to stay adjacent to it.

The opponent now charges an ally of the Battlemind.

Mind spike doesn't work. OA based attack powers doesn't work.

At level 7, you get to use Lightning Rush -- but that grants you standard damage output unless it is augmented. Augment 2 is a strong defender effect, but that is a per-encounter level ability. At level 7.

Artanis
2010-02-09, 01:39 PM
An enemy who shifts away from the Battlemind ultimately stays right next to the Battlemind. An enemy who shifts away from the "stickiest Defender" Fighter takes a MBA but is no longer next to the Fighter.

If that makes the Battlemind "not very sticky at all", then like I said, I must be using the wrong definition of "sticky".



Edit: Addendum

And I just realized that this also ignores the controller aspects of the Battlemind. How many Fighter powers dominate the enemy? Or stun or daze or forced-move? How many Fighter powers punish an enemy by making them auto-fail saves?

Even if the Battlemind's mark really is vastly inferior to that of the Fighter, you shouldn't ignore everything else the class is capable of. The Fighter can deal damage and punish one shift per round. It's like the only way to be as good a Defender as the Fighter is to be as good at exactly what the Fighter does, and to hell with anything else the class can do.

And THAT is why I disagree with CharOp. Even if the Fighter is still the best Defender, they ignore anything that could even theoretically close the gap, much less pull a class ahead.

Yakk
2010-02-09, 02:09 PM
An enemy who shifts away from the Battlemind ultimately stays right next to the Battlemind. An enemy who shifts away from the "stickiest Defender" Fighter takes a MBA but is no longer next to the Fighter.

If that makes the Battlemind "not very sticky at all", then like I said, I must be using the wrong definition of "sticky".
The enemy shifts away from the battlemind. The battlemind follows.

The enemy is now free to move and attack any ally of the battlemind that it feels like, with the battlemind only able to interfere if the enemy stays adjacent to the battlemind.

That shift the battlemind did? It cost the battlemind it's OA.

The fighter, meanwhile, got a free attack on that shift. And if the shift doesn't open up a free line to charge an ally, if the enemy tries to run by the enemy after the shift, the fighter gets another attack (which also stops the enemy from moving).

If the enemy simply moves away from the battlemind, the enemy suffers an OA. If the enemy moves away from the fighter, the enemy suffers an OA with a bonus to hit, and if the OA lands, the enemy stops moving.

Edit: Addendum

And I just realized that this also ignores the controller aspects of the Battlemind. How many Fighter powers dominate the enemy? Or stun or daze or forced-move? How many Fighter powers punish an enemy by making them auto-fail saves?
What level of Battlemind power are we talking about?

Even if the Battlemind's mark really is vastly inferior to that of the Fighter, you shouldn't ignore everything else the class is capable of. The Fighter can deal damage and punish one shift per round. It's like the only way to be as good a Defender as the Fighter is to be as good at exactly what the Fighter does, and to hell with anything else the class can do.

And THAT is why I disagree with CharOp. Even if the Fighter is still the best Defender, they ignore anything that could even theoretically close the gap, much less pull a class ahead.
The features of the battlemind are worse than fighter features.

Possibly battlemind powers are "better enough" to make up for it.

Kesnit
2010-02-09, 02:29 PM
Shift? Slide will work, but shifting 1 won't. The Battlemind's counter-shift ability is an OA, letting him use it and Mind Spike on the same turn. (And if the enemy gets a shift from one of its allies, possibly shifting twice on the turn)

There may be a power I didn't see. As I said, I didn't build the character I played, and we were only LVL 5. The ones I saw specifically said shifting did not activate the mark.

Edit: Never mind. I just realized what power you are talking about. But the idea still stands – an enemy who is moved more than 1 square by another enemy (the power says “shifts,” not “is shifted”) is away from the BM and not subject to the mark unless the BM moves next to the enemy again.

Artanis
2010-02-09, 02:33 PM
The enemy shifts away from the battlemind. The battlemind follows.

The enemy is now free to move and attack any ally of the battlemind that it feels like, with the battlemind only able to interfere if the enemy stays adjacent to the battlemind.

That shift the battlemind did? It cost the battlemind it's OA.

The fighter, meanwhile, got a free attack on that shift. And if the shift doesn't open up a free line to charge an ally, if the enemy tries to run by the enemy after the shift, the fighter gets another attack (which also stops the enemy from moving).

If the enemy simply moves away from the battlemind, the enemy suffers an OA. If the enemy moves away from the fighter, the enemy suffers an OA with a bonus to hit, and if the OA lands, the enemy stops moving.
This would be one of the things I missed then. I concede the point.


What level of Battlemind power are we talking about?
Dominating is on a L25 Daily. L3 at-wills (and later ones, of course) include force-move and immobilize. A L9 Daily is the one with the potential save auto-fail attached (as part of the subsequent stance). L7 has an at-will with attack redirection, and a L23 at-will has that without using up PP.

I could go through and list them all if you want, but hopefully this'll be enough :smallwink:


The features of the battlemind are worse than fighter features.

Possibly battlemind powers are "better enough" to make up for it.
I gladly defer to your judgment on this.

On top of that, it also makes me glad that you're considering the possibility of powers making up the difference, which few (if any) seem to do :smallsmile:


-----------


There may be a power I didn't see. As I said, I didn't build the character I played, and we were only LVL 5. The ones I saw specifically said shifting did not activate the mark.

I believe he's referring to Blurred Step: if an enemy shifts away from you, you shift after them, keeping you in position to use Mind Spike. As Yakk has pointed out, it's far from infallible, but it still makes it take more than a mere shift to get away from the Battlemind.

Kesnit
2010-02-09, 02:35 PM
--Even if the enemy does get away and manage to stay away, it doesn't want to do so because it STILL gets punished for it.

No it doesn't. If an enemy gets away, they can do whatever they want with no consequence from the BM. BM marks only activate if the enemy is next to the BM.

Artanis
2010-02-09, 02:38 PM
No it doesn't. If an enemy gets away, they can do whatever they want with no consequence from the BM. BM marks only activate if the enemy is next to the BM.

There's at least one power (I think more, but I'd have to check) that specifically says that if the enemy moves farther away, it hurts him. There's more to it, but that's the gist.

There's also a few powers that penalize the enemy for moving close to too many of your allies. Presumably, he'd be doing so as part of getting away from the Battlemind, thereby (indirectly) punishing the enemy for getting away.

Asbestos
2010-02-09, 02:38 PM
No it doesn't. If an enemy gets away, they can do whatever they want with no consequence from the BM. BM marks only activate if the enemy is next to the BM.

Like Fighter and Warden marks (mostly).

Also, the BM can reliably mark and forget two enemies per encounter if you feel like spending the PPs... at level 1. This is 2x more fire and forget marking than any other class.

Kesnit
2010-02-09, 03:49 PM
Like Fighter and Warden marks (mostly).

Also, the BM can reliably mark and forget two enemies per encounter if you feel like spending the PPs... at level 1. This is 2x more fire and forget marking than any other class.

Except they aren't fire-and-forget. The BM has to be next to the enemy in order to engage the mark. Also, the power that marks multiples (that I know anyway) only marks until the end of your next turn. There is a mark that lasts, but it only lasts until you use it to mark another or the encounter ends. So while you could have a lot of enemies marked, all but 1 of those would only last 1 round (unless you used the power again, but marking multiple enemies requires PP).

Yakk
2010-02-09, 03:58 PM
There may be a power I didn't see. As I said, I didn't build the character I played, and we were only LVL 5. The ones I saw specifically said shifting did not activate the mark.

Edit: Never mind. I just realized what power you are talking about. But the idea still stands – an enemy who is moved more than 1 square by another enemy (the power says “shifts,” not “is shifted”) is away from the BM and not subject to the mark unless the BM moves next to the enemy again.
If you are shifted, you shift.

If you are slid, you are not shifted.

Artanis
2010-02-09, 04:09 PM
Except they aren't fire-and-forget. The BM has to be next to the enemy in order to engage the mark. Also, the power that marks multiples (that I know anyway) only marks until the end of your next turn. There is a mark that lasts, but it only lasts until you use it to mark another or the encounter ends. So while you could have a lot of enemies marked, all but 1 of those would only last 1 round (unless you used the power again, but marking multiple enemies requires PP).

Uh...Battlemind's Demand can target anything within 3 squares, and it can mark two targets if you spend a PP. These marks last until you use the power again (or until EoE, of course). That makes it a fire-and-forget mark that can be used on up to two targets.

The other fire-and-forget marks, Swordmage's Aegis and Divine Challenge, can only mark 1 enemy at a time (though there's tricks to get around that with Aegis).