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View Full Version : Estimate the LA of this Hillariously Bad Custom Race



PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-09, 05:57 AM
Don't ask where this came from:


Pipsqueek characters possess the following racial traits.


* Fey
* -5 natural armor penalty. (All additions stack until this is positive)

* +4 Strength, -4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma

* Diminutive size. +4 bonus to Armor Class, +4 bonus on attack rolls, +12 bonus on Hide checks, -12 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits a quarter that of Medium characters.

* Space/Reach: 0 feet/0 feet.
* Base land speed is 5 feet.

* Racial Hit Dice: A pipsqueek gains equal levels of fey when it gains class levels or LA. A pipsqueek's racial hit dice do not become the appropriate type because of type changes.

* Racial Skills: A pipsqueek ’s fey levels' have no class skills and gain 0+int skill points for racial hit dice. A pipsqueek has a -12 racial penalty on all skills and ranged attacks.

* Spellcasting inability: A pipsqueek cannot cast magic of any kind (infusions, shadow arcane or divine spells). It cannot take magic, psionic, pact magic, initiator, or incarnum classes. Non-spell completion magic, shadow magic, psionic items, and pact magic items function normally. This inability cannot be removed by any means, even a wish spell.

* Spell Resistance: 20 + HD + class levels. This affect cannot be suppressed or lowered. Whenever a spell overcomes the resistance, the pipsqueek becomes dazed.

* Spell-like abilities: Maddening Scream (continuous effect, self-only, no save, not [mind-affecting])

* Automatic Languages: none. Bonus Languages: none.
* Favored Class: none.
* Level adjustment: ?



So what kind of level adjustment should this stupidity really have? Its tons worse than any LA+0 race.

Its way worse than Incarnate construct so I'd start the bidding at atleast -4LA. Do I hear a "-5LA"?

edit: And no "LA: -" pansy answers. Give me a number!

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 06:23 AM
Don't ask where this came from:


Pipsqueek characters possess the following racial traits.




So what kind of level adjustment should this stupidity really have? Its tons worse than any LA+0 race.

Its way worse than Incarnate construct so I'd start the bidding at atleast -4LA. Do I hear a "-5LA"?
_

-Infinity. It can't take actions.

Eldariel
2010-02-09, 06:28 AM
How do the Bonus Racial HDs act with experience? Do you automatically gain two levels when it level-ups or what? Also, how the hell did Initiators end up in the "No"-list? O.o

Basically, he has no AC and effectively no skill points, along with no magic. Oh, and it can't act. Seems like a great race for a Barbarian or a Wildshape Ranger as a Dragonborn of Bahamut! Owait, he'd make a great Crusader, Swordsage, Psi War, Ardent, Cleric and few others too! Dragonborn Pipsqueeks (why is it Pipsqueek, not Pipsqueak, btw?) FTW.


Anyways, LA? About LA -100 and additional -1 per 2 HD or so.

Grumman
2010-02-09, 06:48 AM
LA: Get out of my sight, and don't come back until you've got a proper idea for a character.

Iceforge
2010-02-09, 07:06 AM
I would take this race with a starting LA of -4

Hell, if we was starting at level 4 or higher, I would take this at LA 0.

In a higher level game, like level 10 or so, this thing becomes insanely powerfull.

It has the mechanical error of starting unbeliveably weak, but it scales up extremely quickly and surpasses most of other races.

Lets demonstrate with what it gains in addition to a level 20 build assuming a LA of +0:

First it gets the advantages of getting a level of fey each time it gains a level, so thats 20HD of fey:

20D6 hit points = 70 average hit dice
6 feats from racial HD, as I assume the standard 1 besides pr. 3 HD cancels out the automatic one from level 1.
SR 45 (25 + 20HD, this increases to SR 65 the moment we include the class levels, or technically 85 if you count the class levels as both HD and class levels)
+10 attack bonus from race
+12 to Reflex and Will Saves

Then you just build it to increase the speed, equip it to increase reach, make it a depend on sneaking (sneak attack with +12 to hide from size is neat, except the racial -12 to all skills, so they cancel each other out)

So a very small little bastard with basicly magic immunity, good saves, good hit bonus and lots of HP; seems quite powerfull to me.

Hell, even with monk as the class, this becomes powerfull.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 07:10 AM
I would take this race with a starting LA of -4

Hell, if we was starting at level 4 or higher, I would take this at LA 0.

In a higher level game, like level 10 or so, this thing becomes insanely powerfull.

It has the mechanical error of starting unbeliveably weak, but it scales up extremely quickly and surpasses most of other races.

Lets demonstrate with what it gains in addition to a level 20 build assuming a LA of +0:

First it gets the advantages of getting a level of fey each time it gains a level, so thats 20HD of fey:

20D6 hit points = 70 average hit dice
6 feats from racial HD, as I assume the standard 1 besides pr. 3 HD cancels out the automatic one from level 1.
SR 45 (25 + 20HD, this increases to SR 65 the moment we include the class levels, or technically 85 if you count the class levels as both HD and class levels)
+10 attack bonus from race
+12 to Reflex and Will Saves

Then you just build it to increase the speed, equip it to increase reach, make it a depend on sneaking (sneak attack with +12 to hide from size is neat, except the racial -12 to all skills, so they cancel each other out)

So a very small little bastard with basicly magic immunity, good saves, good hit bonus and lots of HP; seems quite powerfull to me.

Hell, even with monk as the class, this becomes powerfull.

It also CANNOT TAKE ACTIONS and those RHD count towards ECL.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-02-09, 07:24 AM
Where are people getting that it can't take actions?

Temotei
2010-02-09, 07:30 AM
Where are people getting that it can't take actions?

Yeah (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Maddening_Scream).

It's impossible to use this race to any effect. They'd be dead in a day or two, tops, based on their traits. Of course, the spell resistance stops the spell sometimes, since it's so randomly high.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 07:34 AM
Yeah (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Maddening_Scream).

It's impossible to use this race to any effect. They'd be dead in a day or two, tops, based on their traits. Of course, the spell resistance stops the spell sometimes, since it's so randomly high.

It's a continuous effect. So no SR stopping it.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 09:15 AM
So what kind of level adjustment should this stupidity really have? Its tons worse than any LA+0 race.

Its way worse than Incarnate construct so I'd start the bidding at atleast -4LA. Do I hear a "-5LA"?
_

Wait, if it gains a class level it gains an additional racial HD free?
Plus what is with Maddening Scream?

AstralFire
2010-02-09, 09:29 AM
If you give it some sort of item of anti-magic, then I guess it would -kind of- go okay as a monk? Maybe? An extra 10 BAB would work out okay.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 09:31 AM
Is the SR Extraordinary or supernatural (it can be both but not usually EX)?

Plus, why would a god or nature create an actionless creature?

Arakune
2010-02-09, 09:34 AM
Chaos shuffle + reincarnation = hum...

There is a way to make it work? Anyway, for me it have LA -

Eldan
2010-02-09, 09:55 AM
Chaos Shuffle+Reincarnation still only means that it has three feats more from it's 10 fey HD. Nice, but rarely gamebreaking.

Iceforge
2010-02-09, 10:21 AM
It also CANNOT TAKE ACTIONS and those RHD count towards ECL.

Ah, sorry, I sort of missed what Maddening Screams did, and assuming that you are allowed to build you character, as if you had leveled it through play (thats my standard rule when I allow players to make a character), someone who is building a level 20 character, should have 20 class levels and 20 RHD with that build.

My mission, if I had to build a level 20 with that build now, would be to make the mad uncontrolable crazy minded tiny thing that runs around, but cannot be hurt or stopped.

With the SR already in place, it should be fairly easy to shop around to various other things and make something close to impossible to kill

If you can add more LA things to do, a Pipsqueek / fiendish troll (not half-fiend and troll, but fiendish troll) would be something quite hard to kill, once you add fast healing 1 to the mixture.

High SR, Good Saves, Regeneration 5, Fire/Cold Resistance 10, Damage Reduction 10/magic, Fast Healing 1.

The Regeneration/Fast Healing combo is awesome, as any non-lethal damage is healed each round, which means all but fire and acid damage.

Normal Fire damage is almost completely blocked.
Normal Acid damage is blocked a lot by Damage Reduction 10/magic
Magical Fire Damage is still blocked a bit by the Resistance and a lot by the SR
Magical Acid damage would be the way to go, but it still needs to bypass the SR

DragoonWraith
2010-02-09, 10:25 AM
leveled it through play [...] should have 20 class levels and 20 RHD with that build.
No. You start as a Class 1/Fey 1, you are ECL 2, you need 6000 XP to level up to 3. You do so, you get Class 2/Fey 2, and are ECL 4, and need 15000 XP to level up to 5.

Technically, they'd be Class 10/Fey 10 at the same time everyone else his Class 19, so ahead one ECL, but they wouldn't get Class 11/Fey 11 until they had enough XP to hit ECL 21.

Iceforge
2010-02-09, 10:30 AM
No. You start as a Class 1/Fey 1, you are ECL 2, you need 6000 XP to level up to 3. You do so, you get Class 2/Fey 2, and are ECL 4, and need 15000 XP to level up to 5.

Technically, they'd be Class 10/Fey 10 at the same time everyone else his Class 19, so ahead one ECL, but they wouldn't get Class 11/Fey 11 until they had enough XP to hit ECL 21.

Ah well, then you can still go with the whole stragedy from above through, as you then just need instead of gaining fast healing from a class thing, to gain the same effect in some easier way, like sacrificing some XP to gain a permanent magical effect on yourself which magically heals you one hit point pr. round, which can also be done through WBL I guess.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 10:30 AM
No. You start as a Class 1/Fey 1, you are ECL 2, you need 6000 XP to level up to 3. You do so, you get Class 2/Fey 2, and are ECL 4, and need 15000 XP to level up to 5.

Technically, they'd be Class 10/Fey 10 at the same time everyone else his Class 19, so ahead one ECL, but they wouldn't get Class 11/Fey 11 until they had enough XP to hit ECL 21.

No, I read it as a free level not an additional level.

Aharon
2010-02-09, 10:57 AM
Maddening Scream is living targets only, so wouldn't it cease if you became undead?

Can you use the Restoration Trick mentioned in the Jakeverse-Thread on the fey-levels to trade them in for something useful? If so, would you then gain a fey-level corresponding to your new classlevel?

Lysander
2010-02-09, 11:00 AM
This is awful for a player character, but awesome for an npc village. Imagine the PCs entering a magical forest filled with little creatures that just run around screaming all day. They could be begrudgingly cared for by other fey creatures who force feed them so they don't starve to death.

UglyPanda
2010-02-09, 11:03 AM
Maddening Scream doesn't have a caster level listed.

It's got an LA of "I will burn your ****ing sheet if you play this". I'm guessing this was some sort of inside joke concerning a short girl who is disconcertingly strong for her size but still very weak overall.

Even if you ignore the Maddening Scream thing somehow, the thing automatically gains useless RHD, which become extra useless due to its special ability. The only way it's playable is to become a different race entirely, which completely negates the point of playing it in the first place.

Eloel
2010-02-09, 11:28 AM
ZOMG Dragonborn Pipsqueak?

You're now a diminutive creature with +4 Str, +6 Con, -6 Dex, -4 Int/Cha, and possibly Wings (you don't want to walk around as a diminutive creature - trust me)

You can even go caster if you feel like it, but why would you? Just grab Titan Bloodline and LOL away.
Or you can go Dragonfire Adept for hilarious breathing scenes.

Akal Saris
2010-02-09, 11:38 AM
Here's an idea:

1. Start your character in-game. Be whatever you want - I'll suggest barbarian. Let's assume ECL 10 and an LA of -4 - so you're a barbarian 7/fey 7. Add on some templates - let's make you a venerable fey-blooded unseelie fey aquatic pipsqueak. That brings your con and str to around 1 and raises your int and cha to about +1 total, as well as some other random stuff.
2. Get bitten by a vampire and become a vampire. This probably requires your party to arrange it, since you'll be running around screaming a lot. Maybe have undead leadership for a vampire cohort.
3. Now you're undead, so you're immune to your racial madness (it only affects living creatures). Everyone nearby breathes a sigh of relief. Also, aquatic means you have no aversion to water as a vampire, and a swim speed to boot - not breathing air is OK, because you don't breathe as a vampire.
4. You've got +8 LA from vampire, so you gain 8 RHD of fey as per the weird rules of this template. Now you're a barbarian 7/fey 15 in an ECL 10 game. That's BAB +17 right there.
5. Your vampiric powers are all (Ex) and (Su), neither of which are blocked by your racial aversion to magic. So you have dominate, energy slapping, etc.
6. You gain +7 NA, leaving you with +2 total.
7. You keep your SR.
8. You can alternate shape into a dire wolf at will, ditching your horrible diminutive body. Never return to it.
9. Dance around and pretend you were never a pipsqueak, abusing your ridiculous vampirism. Sure you'll never level again, but you already have more HD than anyone else for the next 12 levels, so who cares?

Here's a second idea:

Be a dragonborn pipsqueak. Dragonborn removes all racial abilities except for your ability modifiers. SO it removes the racial madness and aversion to magic - so you'd have just those stats (and +2 Con/-2 Dex from Dragonborn) and then whatever ridiculous negative LA for extra class levels to abuse.

Then take levels in druid, and wildshape into something that isn't diminutive. Do a little happy dance for Bahamut!

Edit: damn, ninja'd while working on the vampire part!

ericgrau
2010-02-09, 11:45 AM
Find a way around the maddening scream and you're in business. A little coin on potions deals with the SR. Tumble to deal with AoO's from no reach. What's left are some rather impressive plusses. The +6 to hit overcomes the fey BAB all the way to level 20, and gives a huge bonus earlier than that. The con effectively turns those fey d6's into d14's, if we count the HP gained on non fey levels. And he effectively has spell immunity which, while possible to overcome, is not commonly overcome by monsters. Size bonuses to AC cancels natural armor penalty.

jindra34
2010-02-09, 11:55 AM
High grade anti-magic cuffs take care of the spell-like ability drawback. And because you cannot use magic already they pretty much have no drawbacks, and add the fact that you cannot be affected by spells other than conjuration:instantaneous. At that point the race might become effective based on how the whole extra hit-dice of fey work. In all honesty this race should however have LA- as no player can play it without abuse and even if it had an LA0 it would become stupid with abuse (As seen above).

Lysander
2010-02-09, 11:56 AM
Actually, this maddening scream would still work on an undead creature. It's magical but unlike the normal scream this is listed as NOT mind-affecting. That means an undead pipsqueek would still be subject to it.

Aharon
2010-02-09, 11:57 AM
@Lysander
No, Maddening Scream specifically targets living creatures.

Defiant
2010-02-09, 12:03 PM
I'd give it LA +5.

Because WOTC has no idea how much LA a race should have and always puts way more than is necessary. Why should we do any different?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 12:06 PM
I'd give it LA +5.

Because WOTC has no idea how much LA a race should have and always puts way more than is necessary. Why should we do any different?

The mohrg is my favourite there.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-09, 12:07 PM
Here's an idea:

4. You've got +8 LA from vampire, so you gain 8 RHD of fey as per the weird rules of this template. Now you're a barbarian 7/fey 15 in an ECL 10 game. That's BAB +17 right there.

Technically 14 of those Fey RHD put you into epic level (with an ECL of 30 ?!?!?!), which makes you the saddest epic level character in existence.

Roderick_BR
2010-02-09, 01:14 PM
How do the Bonus Racial HDs act with experience? Do you automatically gain two levels when it level-ups or what? Also, how the hell did Initiators end up in the "No"-list? O.o

Even better, why is initiator in a "magic inability" list? He shouldn't be able to take feats as well then, since initiators are not more magic than combat feats</nitpick> He couldn't get the supernatural maneuvers at least.


-Infinity. It can't take actions.
Doesn't his insanelly high SR protect himself from it? with that huge Cha penalty, he'll never bypass his own SR.
Btw, if he can't use any form of magic, why does he has a spell-like ability?
I'd say that he at least would take a massive penalty to Move Silently checks as well.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-09, 01:18 PM
Doesn't his insanelly high SR protect himself from it? with that huge Cha penalty, he'll never bypass his own SR.
Btw, if he can't use any form of magic, why does he has a spell-like ability?
I'd say that he at least would take a massive penalty to Move Silently checks as well.

No, because it's continuous effect. You don't ever get a new SR check against things that are already affecting you.

And there's actually nothing stopping him using SLAs. He can take Warlock.

erikun
2010-02-09, 01:37 PM
Undead are immune to Compulsions, and Maddening Scream is a compulsion effect. Thus, a Necropolitan Pipsqueek is immune to the continuous Maddening Scream. Without that, it is quite superior to other LA +0 races, even without the ability to use magic.

I'd give it LA -- because it is inappropriate for a PC race. I wouldn't allow something like this in a game, and would make the player re-write it if they seriously wanted to play something like this.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-09, 02:11 PM
Even better, why is initiator in a "magic inability" list?
Right. Clearly, the Pipsqueek simply has racial immunity to nice things. Pipsqueeks can never have nice things.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 02:19 PM
Right. Clearly, the Pipsqueek simply has racial immunity to nice things. Pipsqueeks can never have nice things.
Then why aren't they fighters?

DragoonWraith
2010-02-09, 02:23 PM
Hahaha, I just noticed that they don't have a Favored Class. So, they can be, they'll just be bad at it like they are everything else.

So who else thinks this was an attempt to stat someone's little sister?

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 02:25 PM
Wait, don't they get an experience penalty by level 3? Since RHD do count against Exp penalties unless that is a favored class.
So they can never multiclass.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-09, 02:48 PM
Guys don't "LA: -" on me. I know its bad. The question is how bad.

No, Maddening Scream specifically targets living creatures.Since its continuous wouldn't it only matter that you start living? Though this version is non-mind-affecting. So mind-blank won't work on it (perhaps mindless undead will supress it temporarily though)

How do the Bonus Racial HDs act with experience?I would assume it wouldn't change experience needed, if I understood the intent right.

those RHD count towards ECL.Even if the RHD didn't count towards ECL, this race would still blow. Hmm I like that idea though

the spell resistance stops the spell sometimes, since it's so randomly high.It being high is bad in this case because of it can't be suppressed for buffs and if beaten you are dazed

Can you use the Restoration Trick mentioned in the Jakeverse-Thread on the fey-levels to trade them in for something useful? If so, would you then gain a fey-level corresponding to your new classlevel?It would seem the RHD are after the LA or CL so this would work.

I'd give it LA +5. Because WOTC has no idea how much LA a race should have and always puts way more than is necessary. Why should we do any different?I love this answer

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-09, 02:49 PM
wildshape into something that isn't diminutive.There are non-casting ways to gain wildshape. Good catch.


And there's actually nothing stopping him using SLAs. He can take Warlock.Very true.


Undead are immune to Compulsions, and Maddening Scream is a compulsion effect.Its not mind affecting. The fact that its a compulsion doesn't matter, its only the mind-affecting part that undead are immune to. However I seem to remember a PrC that gives immunity to compulsions.


ZOMG Dragonborn Pipsqueak?Yes this was what I thought of too. But remember the spellcasting inability never goes away.

If you want to know I had a solution that required about 9LA of templates to get this about as useful as a mist dragon (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zharth.net/chocobo/dragons/ffiv/Mist%2520Dragon.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.zharth.net/chocobo/dragons/index.html&usg=__bx5dLp3po56aNBSboUT0FVpAydc=&h=126&w=158&sz=3&hl=en&start=5&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=VQOaUAn9MqH1DM:&tbnh=77&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dff2%2Bmist%2Bdragon%26hl%3Den%26clien t%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1) wyrmling

AstralFire
2010-02-09, 03:18 PM
Targeted anti-magic bracers as mentioned above that only neutralize a target's casting abilities, along with the fact that racial hit die are 'free' and do not cost an experience penalty would lead me to say that it has a minimum Level Adjustment of +2 and must enter play with a minimum of 4 Class Level/4 Fey HD when a party is ECL 6, which would be about when it could afford said bracers (This is a wild guess), and continues to have a level adjustment of 50% of its experience level. It is far too useless to be played without racial template cheese at low levels, and far too strong with certain classes and that magic item to go without a level adjustment.

ericgrau
2010-02-09, 06:43 PM
Wait, don't they get an experience penalty by level 3? Since RHD do count against Exp penalties unless that is a favored class.
So they can never multiclass.

RHD are always counted as a favored class.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 06:49 PM
RHD are always counted as a favored class.

I don't believe the validity of that statement. Do you have a source?

tyckspoon
2010-02-09, 06:56 PM
I don't believe the validity of that statement. Do you have a source?

Monsters and Class Levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#monstersAndClassLevels)


f a creature acquires a character class...
A creature’s "monster class" is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

BenTheJester
2010-02-09, 09:27 PM
This race reminds me of:

http://www.gamefilia.com/files/imce/u472452/screamapillar.jpg

The Dark Fiddler
2010-02-09, 09:38 PM
This race reminds me of:

http://www.gamefilia.com/files/imce/u472452/screamapillar.jpg

Except they don't have the government to protect them.

Flickerdart
2010-02-09, 09:51 PM
Seriously? This is an LA -- race. It is literally unplayable without cheese. You want an estimate of how bad it is? That's how bad. 10 worthless HD, inability to take actions, incredible fragility and general uselessness...what exactly is the point of this...thing?

Grumman
2010-02-09, 09:58 PM
what exactly is the point of this...thing?
You haven't met PlzBreakMyCmpAn before, have you?

erikun
2010-02-09, 10:20 PM
Guys don't "LA: -" on me. I know its bad. The question is how bad.
The problem isn't that it's bad - it's that it's unplayable. It's like having a class with an ability: "Roll a d20. On a 1-19, the character is irreversably eradicated. On a 20, the character becomes a rank 20 overdeity." There is no way you can rank that, as it is completely unplayable one way or the other.

The only thing I can recommend is to look ignore the broken part of the race (the Maddening Scream) and look at how strong the rest is. I see +6 attack, +2 damage, -3 AC, very high SR, and the inability to cast spells. That's a lot of bonuses overall, especially with some builds that can ignore the penalities (enlarging fighter, druids). The unusual racial hit dice make things difficult, pushing the race more into melee territory.

This could lead to some absurd characters, again assuming a way to bypass the Maddening Scream. I'd put it at LA+5 if I really needed to stat it, although I'd like to playtest it to be sure how accurate that is.


Its not mind affecting. The fact that its a compulsion doesn't matter, its only the mind-affecting part that undead are immune to. However I seem to remember a PrC that gives immunity to compulsions.
The Undead type is immune to compulsions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) Mind you, it doesn't make any sense for an effect to be a compulsion and not be mind-affecting, so perhaps the Maddening Scream effect should not be a compulsion either.

JaronK
2010-02-09, 10:54 PM
Seems fine, because Dragonborn gets rid of the negatives and then you have +4 Str and +6 Con. Not bad for a charging Barbarian type. And being that small really helps with Confound the Big Folk and that other feat for attacking bigger foes.

JaronK

UglyPanda
2010-02-09, 11:08 PM
So who else thinks this was an attempt to stat someone's little sister?
...Arson joke...
I'm guessing this was some sort of inside joke concerning a short girl who is disconcertingly strong for her size but still very weak overall.I don't think it's a sister. An attempt to stat an annoying little sister would have had the ability to cause other people madness.


Which of this thing's abilities are Ex and which are Su? I'm not even sure I'd consider Dragonborn or Necropolitan actual options considering that they're both ritual templates. If a character can't actually perform the rituals, it's useless. Then again, it's a thought exercise, so you might as well count it.

Alleine
2010-02-10, 12:26 AM
Why you give it a dagger fit for a pipsqueek of course. A very small, quite dull, amazingly ineffectual dagger. Only for use by a pipsqueek or its kin.
Desperately hoping the pipsqueek is a reference to an obscure game. Most likely not.
I totally agree with the +5 LA though. I mean come on, it has a +4 str and con, and everyone knows that melee is OP. :smallwink:

Temotei
2010-02-10, 12:27 AM
Why you give it a dagger fit for a pipsqueek of course. A very small, quite dull, amazingly ineffectual dagger. Only for use by a pipsqueek or its kin.
Desperately hoping the pipsqueek is a reference to an obscure game. Most likely not.
I totally agree with the +5 LA though. I mean come on, it has a +4 str and con, and everyone knows that melee is OP. :smallwink:

I'd say +8 LA. The vampire is a good comparison. :smallcool:

Maloric
2010-02-10, 08:46 AM
Ok I'm confused. Why do people think maddening scream isn't a mind affecting effect? The SRD clearly states that it is.

<edit, Nevermind I reread the original post. While it is under the effect of Maddening Scream for some reason it's stated it is not mind affecting, now I'm even more confused>

Maddening Scream
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

And even if it doesn't specifically state the Mind-Affecting part beside the Compulsion, the SRD also states:

"Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

All enchantments are mind-affecting spells."

Am I looking at the wrong SRD?

Oh and as to the OP, this race is clearly unplayable. Either it does nothing or someone gets around the maddening scream restriction (Mind Blank, becoming undead, etc) and is suddenly amazing.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-10, 08:50 AM
I'd say +8 LA. The vampire is a good comparison. :smallcool:

Actually, I'd argue that the Shadow Vampire from Dragon 348 is a more accurate comparison. LA +10.

Felyndiira
2010-02-10, 09:39 AM
The only thing I can recommend is to look ignore the broken part of the race (the Maddening Scream) and look at how strong the rest is. I see +6 attack, +2 damage, -3 AC, very high SR, and the inability to cast spells. That's a lot of bonuses overall, especially with some builds that can ignore the penalities (enlarging fighter, druids). The unusual racial hit dice make things difficult, pushing the race more into melee territory.

I see something completely different, even without the maddening scream. Many of the penalties of this class are a direct cause of the dimunitive size, which makes said enlarging fighters and druids (which work by modifying size) drop a good portion of the class's bonuses (4 attack and 4 AC, namely).

The SR here is an absolute hinderance. The class may work well as a druid, but his abilities bar him from ever taking a single class in druid due to it being a magic class. The 80 SR also prevents him from effectively receiving buffs from outside sources (ala no GMW, no vigor, etc.). Thus, the class is practically roped into playing a physical combat class with enough UMD to support himself, all for a few measly bonuses.

Thus, the class has the following advantages:


+4 STR and CON
Dimunitive Size
High SR


It has the following disadvantages:


Cannot take a single tier 1 class ever (except maybe artificer), or any other class with a spell or psionic list.
Cannot use normal spells
Unsupressable SR. Say what you will about it, the SR will prevent every good spell from taking effect on this character unless if he casts it himself. With pretty much all TU classes denied to the character and no chance at persist, it means rebuffing before every battle - that is, assuming that he can actually get most of the magic items he absolutely depends on in the first place.
-4 DEX, INT, and CHA
Practically +1 automatic LA for every level gained. The fey levels give nothing but one hit die.
Horrid reach and base speed; requires UMD or carefully chosen feats to get past due to SR
The most idiotic land speed ever. He runs slower than most characters walk.
-12 Racial Penalty on skill checks.
-12 Penalty on ranged attacks, making bows useless.


I highly doubt the raceis worth that much given how many penalties he has, and how much careful optimization + wealth you need just to get over those weaknesses and take advantage of the character's miniscule strengths (optimization that can get you a lot more than just +4 STR). Therefore, I propose that this class should get a +10 LA, just because the list is long and looks impressive, which is of course what Wizard cares about.

AstralFire
2010-02-10, 09:40 AM
The Racial Hit Die are free and give no ECL adjustment.

That's the only thing that allows me to make any sort of level adjustment suggestion; even though proportional LA isn't exactly standard, a flat level adjustment above +2 is almost always a death sentence, or it's something grossly overpowered at high class levels.

Aharon
2010-02-10, 09:47 AM
Greater Spell Immunity would also do the trick to get rid of the maddening scream.

Disregard that.

Felyndiira
2010-02-10, 09:51 AM
The Racial Hit Die are free and give no ECL adjustment.

That's the only thing that allows me to make any sort of level adjustment suggestion; even though proportional LA isn't exactly standard, a flat level adjustment above +2 is almost always a death sentence, or it's something grossly overpowered at high class levels.

Really? The wording kinda suggested to me that the HD are not free, but are actual levels gained and counting towards ECL:


A pipsqueek gains equal levels of fey when it gains class levels or LA.

Even assuming free HD, I think most people on this thread are sorta missing the race's other plethora of nerfs. More specifically, he cannot take any class with a spell list on it (so he can't buff himself naturally), cannot reliable receive buffs from others (the SR cannot be suppressed), and depends on high UMD and magical items for, well, everything.

AstralFire
2010-02-10, 09:56 AM
Really? The wording kinda suggested to me that the HD are not free, but are actual levels gained and counting towards ECL:


I would assume it wouldn't change experience needed, if I understood the intent right.

That was the Topic Creator, so I'm taking that as truth because it's the only way remotely possible to give this thing anything but a - for LA.

Don't get me wrong, the race absolutely blows in design, but I'm pretty sure with good magic item usage, it can actually be made use of.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-10, 10:12 AM
The SR here is an absolute hinderance. The class may work well as a druid, but his abilities bar him from ever taking a single class in druid due to it being a magic class. The 80 SR also prevents him from effectively receiving buffs from outside sources (ala no GMW, no vigor, etc.). Thus, the class is practically roped into playing a physical combat class with enough UMD to support himself, all for a few measly bonuses.


Healing belt or CLW wand (UMD). Remember you auto bypass your own SR.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-10, 10:15 AM
I'd say LA: -4.

Mostly because I can overcome all those problems with 3 LA templates, with the exception of the no casting/anything stuff. The RHD can be annnihilated by Restoration cheese, and technically means that with scrolls of restoration, you can level yourself up for cash.

And Your RHD count towards your ECL. The TOTAL XP you need to level up is determined by your ECL. There's no such thing as xp to next level, you keep all xp when you level up, it just takes a certain total to reach your next level.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-10, 10:17 AM
I'd say LA: -4.
And Your RHD count towards your ECL. The TOTAL XP you need to level up is determined by your ECL. There's no such thing as xp to next level, you keep all xp when you level up, it just takes a certain total to reach your next level.

What if we make these RHD as an exception and free? Sorta like how Bloodlines don't count for ECL but are free.

AstralFire
2010-02-10, 10:18 AM
And Your RHD count towards your ECL.

No; this race is different.

Felyndiira
2010-02-10, 10:20 AM
Healing belt or CLW wand (UMD). Remember you auto bypass your own SR.

I made an explicit exception for using UMD/USD on yourself. That doesn't change the fact, however, that making the character marginally usable through massive magic item abuse isn't enough grounds for saying that a penalty is insignificant (after all, a 0 LA half-elf can use UMD as well, and doesn't have to pack gear specifically to counter 9000+ units of class crappiness).

If anything, the "oh you can't play anything with spellcasting/manifesting ever" is itself worth a lot of negative LA, and the SR should be viewed as a hindrance instead of a boon.

AstralFire
2010-02-10, 10:24 AM
Targeted AMF bracers and a handful of common items from MIC are massive item magic abuse? Forcing it to starting out in a mid-to-high level game (which would be doable by, as I suggested, giving it a minimum LA and having it adjust proportionally) would make those easily swallowed.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-10, 10:31 AM
IF the RHD don't count towards ECL, I'd say for 'casual gamers' It could be up to -4. That eliminates the restoration cheese, and with the simple adjustment of an undead template, you dodge the maddening scream.

For Optimisers, needs to be at most -2. The extra HD give them early entry to a lot of PrCs, and you can still get a lot of cheese from melee classes with enough combining of PrC abilities. I'd say a -1 wouldn't be a horiffic cost. (Grab a haste effect for the speed, get flying somehow, and diminuitive is excellent. I'd grab some of those fighting big folk feats and be a massive pain in the ass, asap. Not the most optimal character, but playable.

Felyndiira
2010-02-10, 10:43 AM
I should probably restate that:

Making a race with heavy penalties barely LA 0 through the use of UMD and specific magical items doesn't mean that those penalties are non-existent.

In the case of this race, it has very few bonuses (the extra HD is probably the only thing significant here) and has penalties that make it depend on magic items for its very survival. The fact that the character's debuffs can be negated with targetted AMF bracers plus a bunch of other things doesn't change the fact that another LA 0 race can get every bonus this class gives and more with a slightly different set of magic items (even the HD can be offset by defensive items/+CON stuff). To add icing to the cake, they can actually receive buffs from other players, and they can get UMD as a bonus instead of a necessity without having to be dependent on specific magic items that it has no chance of crafting.

TBH I don't see this class being worth any LA, free HD/high levels or not. If you're going to use optimizing equipment as an argument for positive LA, I could also argue that having a druid with UMD and another LA +0 race is much better.

AstralFire
2010-02-10, 10:59 AM
Balancing the game around Tier 1 is a losing proposition, see how WotC failed to do it whatsoever.

I'm eyeballing and rusty, but I'm fairly certain that making use of additional (level(d6+con) HP), half progression BAB, (level/3 Fortitude), ((level/2)+2) Reflex and Will, (level(6+Int) skill points), an extra feat every three levels, a greatly raised maximum skill rank limit, nearly effective spell immunity, and immunity to enemy attacks that target humanoids at high levels is not difficult even for people with a casual eye for optimization.

You'll get a lot of early PrC entry.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-10, 04:53 PM
This race reminds me of:

http://www.gamefilia.com/files/imce/u472452/screamapillar.jpgHuh?


You haven't met PlzBreakMyCmpAn before, have you?Sigging :smallamused:


perhaps the Maddening Scream effect should not be a compulsion either.Ya I'll change it if y'all want


Desperately hoping the pipsqueek is a reference to an obscure game. Most likely not.
I mean come on, it has a +4 str and con, and everyone knows that melee is OP. :smallwink:Good job :smalltongue:


I see something completely different, even without the maddening scream. Many of the penalties of this class are a direct cause of the dimunitive size, which makes said enlarging fighters and druids (which work by modifying size) drop a good portion of the class's bonuses (4 attack and 4 AC, namely).

The SR here is an absolute hinderance. The class may work well as a druid, but his abilities bar him from ever taking a single class in druid due to it being a magic class. The 80 SR also prevents him from effectively receiving buffs from outside sources (ala no GMW, no vigor, etc.). Thus, the class is practically roped into playing a physical combat class with enough UMD to support himself, all for a few measly bonuses.

Thus, the class has the following advantages:


+4 STR and CON
Dimunitive Size
High SR


It has the following disadvantages:


Cannot take a single tier 1 class ever (except maybe artificer), or any other class with a spell or psionic list.
Cannot use normal spells
Unsupressable SR. Say what you will about it, the SR will prevent every good spell from taking effect on this character unless if he casts it himself. With pretty much all TU classes denied to the character and no chance at persist, it means rebuffing before every battle - that is, assuming that he can actually get most of the magic items he absolutely depends on in the first place.
-4 DEX, INT, and CHA
Practically +1 automatic LA for every level gained. The fey levels give nothing but one hit die.
Horrid reach and base speed; requires UMD or carefully chosen feats to get past due to SR
The most idiotic land speed ever. He runs slower than most characters walk.
-12 Racial Penalty on skill checks.
-12 Penalty on ranged attacks, making bows useless.


I highly doubt the raceis worth that much given how many penalties he has, and how much careful optimization + wealth you need just to get over those weaknesses and take advantage of the character's miniscule strengths (optimization that can get you a lot more than just +4 STR). Therefore, I propose that this class should get a +10 LA, just because the list is long and looks impressive, which is of course what Wizard cares about.You, sir (madam?), understand this thread :smallcool:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-10, 04:55 PM
The Racial Hit Die are free and give no ECL adjustment.Eh. Honestly crappy saves, bab and hd should make no difference. Actually I could say it can go either way, free or not free, whatever. I do feel confident the xp totals shouldn't go wonky though.


Really? The wording kinda suggested to me that the HD are not free, but are actual levels gained and counting towards ECL:

Even assuming free HD..., and depends on high UMD and magical items for, well, everything.Actually no UMD. That would be a spell-completion item

It was even worse than you feared!
Non-spell completion magic, shadow magic, psionic items, and pact magic items function normally.


I'd say LA: -4.THANK YOU

This is what I came to also. Thinking with templates is good


Balancing the game around Tier 1

(level(6+Int) skill points)... a greatly raised maximum skill rank limitthis nerfs most all tier 2 and a good chunk of 3. Just sayin'. Also 0+int and all cross-class

There are ways to fix 'free HD'-> PrC early entry, also. That wasn't the point here. See my PrC early entry handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7061.0)if you think having some extra BaB is just too awesome (prepare for you head to explode though)

AstralFire
2010-02-10, 05:02 PM
this nerfs most all tier 2 and a good chunk of 3. Just sayin'. Also 0+int and all cross-class

I didn't propose a fix or anything, so I'm not sure where that came from. :smallconfused:

UglyPanda
2010-02-10, 06:00 PM
And Your RHD count towards your ECL.No; this race is different.Wait, how? I don't see where it is listed that it has special ECL rules.

Myou
2010-02-10, 06:02 PM
LA: No.

It's just stupid on so many levels. Where did it come from?

AstralFire
2010-02-10, 06:41 PM
Wait, how? I don't see where it is listed that it has special ECL rules.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7859991&postcount=59

fryplink
2010-02-10, 07:31 PM
LA -6

you could burn the negative LA on some undead type getting rid of the living creature requirement of maddening scream

or take a class that turns you into a construct (green star adept gives spell casting, but theres has got to be others) which "kills" you, ruining maddening scream

anything that makes maddening screams target:living creature not work anymore makes the race playable