PDA

View Full Version : Tomb of horrors 3.5 strikes again



Damastes
2010-02-09, 08:51 AM
Greetings
Recently my players accused me of being... too merciful. So I tomorrow I will give them Tomb of Horrors. Hear, in Poland it was never published and is not really (in)famous, so I briefed them to expect challenging dungecrawal instead our usual intrigue (we play mostly 7th sea and CoC). They took it very enthusiastic, but knowing that most of my players are pretty smart and they know D&D well enough I’m considered with few possible exploits. They are not munchikins but the two of them are fully capable of being one and I would not really blame them for being in this module. So I decided to share with you some of my concerns (If any of YOU are reading this stop now – I will know if you won’t).
They can make as many characters as they wish. I came up with the story big camp o adventures and soldiers waiting in the desert for order of the king to use nearby secret portal to invade another country. But invasion haven’t started yet and after a few weeks of waiting most adventures will gladly accept the call of the good cleric to destroy evil plotting unread wizard. Tomb will be located about 3 days of walk through the desert. When any character will die they can always return to camp to hire additional member and resupply (of course random encounters on the way will be norm). The cleric will also give rod with 4 resurrections (there will be 5 players). I’m using 3.5 versions.
Possible problems include:
1. Spider Climb, Gaseous Form, Fly, Overland Flight, Air Walk will make most of traps useless (and there is no problem with casting them on the whole team). Especially the second one is dangerous – they can scout, pass doors and traps and are immune to poison.
2. Using summoned creatures to check for traps (not as troublesome but still)
3. Resting every time possible. No monsters wandering around.
4. Passwall will let them tunnel through the dungeon
5. Telekinesis or even Mage Hand will let them open all chests, doors etc form the safe distance
6. Arcane Eye for scouting
7. When can they take 20 on search check? I would say when they are looking for something in more specific place (a trap in a chest but not traps in whole corridor)

It seems that most of traps are very easy too pass – mostly because of great range of spells. We must also remember that at this point they will have a lot of magic items so hoping to wait for them running out of the spells is pointless

I propose some solutions

1. Make magical wind through tomb to prevent effective use of gaseous form and made more traps with triggers suited to flying characters
2. Make summoning defective in tomb – 30% chances that creature will not obey and 30% that it will be hostile
3. Make some wandering demons or even better give time limit in form of orders from king to use a portal
4. Prevent players from having it with any possible way
5. No idea
6. Not really big problem, but still...

I will be glad if you can tell me what do you think o this ideas and maybe provide better solutions o pointing out other problems that I overlooked. I’ve read most of the boards but that was not enough. You may think that I’m thinking too much but I know my players and I want to be ready for their actions as much as possible. A also apologize for any mistakes I made (English is not my first language) and for length of this post (this is my villainous monologue class trait).

Yours faithfully

Zeta Kai
2010-02-09, 09:15 AM
Well, the main problem that you probably encounter in running ToH3.5 is that the dungeon is reasonably balanced for a 9th-level party. It's just not the meatgrinder that the original is infamous for being. There isn't even a real demilich at the end. So unless your party is drastically under-leveled (or you crank the dungeon's challenges way up), then they're not going to be in too much danger. Ho hum.

Dyllan
2010-02-09, 09:40 AM
First of all, if you negate all the magic that can bypass traps, you're really making the casters useless here. The traps are the biggest part of the module, and I remember at least one fight involving a golem - further frustrating the casters.

That said, I do agree certain things shouldn't work well. I don't remember if the tomb is entirely made of stone, but it would be easy enough to line the walls with metal - preventing the use of passwall. If you really want to be evil, imbed metal in the walls, behind the stone, so they cast passwall and all it does is open a 6 inch passage to the metal walls behind it.

Of course, if they're serious enough, they could try disintegrate, or other methods to really break through a wall. If they're that serious about it, let them do it.

Mage hand does not allow for complicated movements, just to pick something up. So while it could open an unlocked chest, even the simplest locking mechanism would foil it. Telekinesis is likewise limited. Unless they have an Arcane Trickster, I wouldn't allow this to be used to open anything except the simplest (and in the case of mage hand lightest) of chests. If they do have an Arcane Trickster, well he invested his character into that so let him do it.

As for Gaseous Form, I wouldn't put a wind in every room. However, carefully look at the ramifications of each trap. Unless the entire party is in Gaseous Form, most traps are still likely to be triggered. They aren't likely to pass the entire place in Gaseious Form, and if they do, when they reach the room with the wind (one exists already), they'll get sucked into the face... I don't remember that that one destroys them or just teleports them home and teleports their gear elsewhere. If it's the latter, I'd also have it dispel Gaseous Form, so you don't have people argue that their gear is insubstantial and therefore shouldn't have been lost. However, if you add wind to other rooms, it will serve as a warning and make that particular trap much less likely to work. That particular trap is just as deadly if they're using Air Walk, or even Fly if memory serves.

As for Spider Climb, I'd suggest putting a second trigger for one of the traps on the wall or ceiling. One of the early traps. Or just add a new trap that's only triggered if you're walking on the wall or ceiling. That'll scare them off of using that.

I think imposing an external time limit on them is the best way to avoid too much resting. Don't give them so little time that they can't rest at all, however. The only problem I see with this is that, if they have to travel back to get more companions, they could run out of time. I suggest making the camp rather close to the tomb, or having the priest offer magical transportation to pick people up.

I suggest against the 30% chances for summoning. If you're going to mess with summoning, go with the current flavor for the module. There are supposed to be demons waiting in the ethereal to reset the tomb, so why not make summoning be controlled by those demons. They cause every summon spell to call a fiendish version of the creature summoned (add the fiendish template - not hard to do on the fly), and the demons control the spell. Or better yet, make the caster need a spellcraft check, each round, to maintain control, contested by a demon (make up a skill modifier appropriate to the caster - I'd have the demon have a slightly higher modifier than the caster, and also have to roll a d20). Once they realize they can't control their summons, they'll likely dismiss them and not try again, but making it a skill check makes them feel more in control, and if it's a particularly hard skill check, should scare them a bit. And if they roll particularly high, but you roll higher, that'll really worry them (fudge a roll on this the first time they roll a 20, if necessary).

I wouldn't worry about Arcane Eye. A bit of scouting isn't going to break the module, and the arcane caster is unlikely to be able to make the search checks to find any of the traps, so it really only matters for things that are obvious, like enemy creatures. Knowledge of them is helpful, but hardly module breaking.

They can only take 20 on a check if there is no penalty for failure. Searching for traps always has the penalty of possibly setting the trap off. So they can never take 20 on a search check for traps. The way I run it, if someone takes a 20 for a search check and there IS a trap (for instance, if they think there's a secret door, but are convinced there's no trap), they automatically set it off.

Have fun with the module. I know we did when I ran my party through it.

Reaper_Monkey
2010-02-09, 09:52 AM
Half of the deaths/injuries in the ToH will be caused from player stupidity/curiosity/frustration.

Seriously, you're more likely to get stuck and not work out the right way to go than you are to get killed in an even fight. As such your players will do stupid things to find their way around, at times this is needed, at other times they will die.

The place is filled with 50/50 chances like this, you either proceed without a hitch, or die because you chose to do the other seemingly equal choice first. You don't need big monsters or dangerous traps when pushing a button will autokill you without a save.

Damastes
2010-02-09, 02:56 PM
Thank you all for answers especially Dyllan. I like the idea of fighting with demons over control of summoned creature and it will give players the hint of their existence before they will try to go on ethernal plane. I think I will make it concentration checks instead of spellcraft. I think I will have in the first "real" corridor not a constant wind but rather random and spontaneous blows that will extinguish their torches. This wind blow will be heading towards the face of green devil and (you guessed it - sphere of annihilation). Of course that will be only dangerous when somebody will be in Gaseous Form. That way they should think twice before doing it later and it will not blow future surprise in hall of columns. Of course I will allow my players to rest - time limit will be very wide. Of course if there will be arcane trickster I will do nothing to stop them from using their abilities. And by the way - I never fudge rolls (I am LE DM). Maybe that’s why they think I am too merciful but I do not need good rolls to make their lives hard. If you wish I will give you afterplay report. Thanks again.

Umael
2010-02-09, 03:29 PM
You ARE too nice.

Go ahead and give them the sell about the "big ol' camp of adventurers" and them having a rod of resurrection.

Then have them cross through a portal on their way to the tomb, or maybe have a magical wind sweep by.

Ooops. 50 years just passed by. That camp of adventurers? Moved on. The world has changed. There are no reinforcements, there is no one to replace them if one of them dies.

As for the rod? It works... kinda. As in, maybe the charges have only a 50% chance of working. Or maybe the evil of the Tomb has a chance of twisting the soul of the adventurer when it returns to the body, making the ressurected character suffer from hallucinations and paranoia. Maybe the rod actually brings the adventurer back, but secretly as a servant of evil.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-09, 03:55 PM
7. When can they take 20 on search check? I would say when they are looking for something in more specific place (a trap in a chest but not traps in whole corridor)

1. Make magical wind through tomb to prevent effective use of gaseous form and made more traps with triggers suited to flying characters
2. Make summoning defective in tomb – 30% chances that creature will not obey and 30% that it will be hostile
3. Make some wandering demons or even better give time limit in form of orders from king to use a portal
4. Prevent players from having it with any possible way

7 whenever they can just roll the action 20 times (make it take time)

1 Yes
2 No summons (think rebuke undead)
3 Lots of wandering monsters
4 don't allow the walls to be passable or destructable

Sounds a lot like my WLD thread :smallcool:

Your Nemesis
2010-02-09, 05:24 PM
Other problems: stone shape.

Do not get upset if your players begin stone shaping the doors out of the walls to sell them.

Ashram
2010-02-09, 05:32 PM
You ARE too nice.

Go ahead and give them the sell about the "big ol' camp of adventurers" and them having a rod of resurrection.

Then have them cross through a portal on their way to the tomb, or maybe have a magical wind sweep by.

Ooops. 50 years just passed by. That camp of adventurers? Moved on. The world has changed. There are no reinforcements, there is no one to replace them if one of them dies.

As for the rod? It works... kinda. As in, maybe the charges have only a 50% chance of working. Or maybe the evil of the Tomb has a chance of twisting the soul of the adventurer when it returns to the body, making the ressurected character suffer from hallucinations and paranoia. Maybe the rod actually brings the adventurer back, but secretly as a servant of evil.

No offense, but this sounds absolutely retarded. There's a difference between "high difficulty" and "DM doesn't want you to live".

Umael
2010-02-10, 12:12 AM
No offense, but this sounds absolutely retarded. There's a difference between "high difficulty" and "DM doesn't want you to live".

Word of advice, Ashram.

Saying "no offense" does not give you a free pass to imply something insulting.

You don't like what I said? Fine. Your choice.

But I think you missed both the OP's stance, which was "my players think I'm too nice so I'm going to use Tomb of Horrors" and what Tomb of Horrors was about. (And in case you DID get it, your two-sentence rebuttal doesn't do a good job of showing it.)

The OP was willing to flat-out give the PCs two potential game-breaking advantages that ruined the feel of Tomb of Horrors. Add to it the issue about Tomb of Horrors not having the same feel to it in 3.5 as it did when it was first released, and you get a potential limp wrist when the gauntlet has been thrown down.

bosssmiley
2010-02-10, 10:17 AM
No offense, but this sounds absolutely retarded. There's a difference between "high difficulty" and "DM doesn't want you to live".

You say this in a Tomb of Horrors thread? :smallconfused:

The whole point of the Tomb is that it is an unrelenting meatgrinder which chews up and spits out precious snowflake characters. It was created as a "how good a player are you, really?" hardcore challenge. The motto carved over the door of the Tomb: "Cry moar plz".

Umael's ideas are completely in accord with the "Are you sure you want to do that?" school of DMing that created the Tomb.

@OP: See if you can't find the Green Devil Face trap collections (by James Raggi, et al). They're a bunch of Tomb-style traps that test player skill, rather than character ability. Some of them are deliciously evil.

BobTheDog
2010-02-10, 10:45 AM
IIRC the 3.5 ToH module, there is a certain truth to the "players can abuse spells, it'll most likely screw them up in the end" advice that was given before.

If they fly over most pits, they'll miss the one that is actually a secret door. If they pass through walls, they'll attract the demons that take care of the dungeon etc. The key to beating ToH is either infinite Resurrection (True, if possible, to avoid level drain), infinite minions, knowing the dungeon OoC (lame, but what can we do), or a combination of those.

One advice I'd give, tho, is: do not put wandering monsters in there (other than the ones already in). Not only it creates a "how can they survive here" kind of thing, unless the monsters are ethereal, undead etc. but also takes a bit away from the "this place doesn't need monsters to kill you" feel. What I'd do to "punish" 5-minute-day PCs (which, IMHO is valid/necessary in ToH) would be have the "repair demons" be extra effective. They nearly die but disable a trap and go back to the last room to rest? Surprise, the trap is back. Either move forward and hope you can rest, risk resting in the "returning trap" room, or find a way to beat it without expending so much.

Serenity
2010-02-10, 10:45 AM
I just played through the 3.5 version of the Tomb in December. We had every advantage--26 pre-generated 10th level characters, each of whom would transport in automatically when one died/was imprisioned/left/etc.; 32 point buy; everyone had some means of Flight or Spider Climb or what have you. We took 20 searching every square in every room. And we still lost half our characters by the end, because the few monsters there are are particularly lethal, and some of the puzzles are so fiendish that someone will make the wrong decision, and die. Any screw up or bit of player greed or stupidity means a very, very good chance of death.

It is not 'limp-wristed' to give them back-up. Without replacement characters, they will lose, no matter how many advantages you give them.

Umael
2010-02-10, 12:35 PM
It is not 'limp-wristed' to give them back-up. Without replacement characters, they will lose, no matter how many advantages you give them.

First, thank you for giving your insight, complete with rough numbers, on the 3.5 update. I am being serious when I say that having someone come forward and give some strong anecdotal testamony helps in discussing this.

That said, I think the notion of "back-up" in context of ToH needs to be examined, especially when you brought up the notion of "losing".

In my opinion, D&D, no matter what version, and in fact, all role-playing games, is a game first, and no matter how competitive a game is, it should be played for fun. Let me repeat: it's a game, not a competition; it's supposed to be fun.

That said, if everyone is having fun, no one "loses". The notion of "losing" in D&D, or any RPG, is ground into the idea of the players as protagonists, hence they must be the good guys, and the good guys always win. Players "beat" the dungeon if their characters survive and they loot it, slay all the monsters, and scrawl their names in the walls like leaving a calling card. Therefore, players "lose" if their characters are killed, especially if it is a TPK.

And since no one likes to "lose", the DM stacks the deck in their favor (most times).

And for the most part, I agree with this philosophy. I do intend for my PCs to be protagonists, they are usually the good guys, and they are supposed to emerge triumphant.

But Tomb of Horrors is a different sub-genre, and I change my expectations. In its most pure form, the Tomb of Horrors game was run as a competition in a gaming tournament. It was not just the players trying to beat the dungeon, but the players trying to do better in beating the dungeon than other players.

And yes, there were groups that defeated the dungeon.

One guy I knew won $30 in a Tomb of Horrors competition by simply being the last one in the party to survive (the players each put up $5).

Furthermore, Tomb of Horrors also illustrates how utterly nasty a dungeon can be, possibly even should be. You remember that stereotype of the wizard in his tower who is supposed to be an evil genius, but gets tracked down and killed in his lair by a band of heroes? Tomb of Horrors gives an idea how it REALLY is supposed to go down.

I'm not saying that you are wrong for wanting to have backup when playing ToH. It is your opinion, after all. I'm not even saying that the OP is wrong for wanting to give the players backup.

I'm saying that by giving the players backup, he is being too nice, which I feel violates the spirit of Tomb of Horrors. I also feel that by giving the players backup, the OP is sabotaging his own attempt to answer their accusation. They threw down the gauntlet, I don't see the need to use a velvet glove (to use a slightly different analogy).

(Mind you, if I wanted to run Tomb of Horrors and I had to coax my players into playing it, I would be more willing to give them backup. But if my players said I was being too nice... why prove them right?)

Your Nemesis
2010-02-10, 01:05 PM
Personally, I my party is not having so much trouble in the tomb: but then, we just got past the collapsing room...

jiriku
2010-02-10, 01:27 PM
...stuff...

Possible problems include:
1. Spider Climb, Gaseous Form, Fly, Overland Flight, Air Walk will make most of traps useless (and there is no problem with casting them on the whole team). Especially the second one is dangerous – they can scout, pass doors and traps and are immune to poison.
2. Using summoned creatures to check for traps (not as troublesome but still)
3. Resting every time possible. No monsters wandering around.
4. Passwall will let them tunnel through the dungeon
5. Telekinesis or even Mage Hand will let them open all chests, doors etc form the safe distance
6. Arcane Eye for scouting
7. When can they take 20 on search check? I would say when they are looking for something in more specific place (a trap in a chest but not traps in whole corridor)

...more stuff...

I propose some solutions
1. Make magical wind through tomb to prevent effective use of gaseous form and made more traps with triggers suited to flying characters
2. Make summoning defective in tomb – 30% chances that creature will not obey and 30% that it will be hostile
3. Make some wandering demons or even better give time limit in form of orders from king to use a portal
4. Prevent players from having it with any possible way
5. No idea
6. Not really big problem, but still...

...other stuff...

Rule #1 of Being an Amazing DM: Thou shalt not take away the toys of thine players. Instead, ensure that the toys, while useful, do not function as instant "I Win" buttons.

Instead of nerfing player powers, tweak the traps to be deadly in spite of the anticipated player powers. Here are a few examples, tailored to your concerns:


Traps that fill a volume with a damaging effect are effective against wall-crawling and flying PCs. For example, a pit trap can also be accompanied by falling boulders or poison darts aimed downward from apertures in the ceiling.
I am fond of occasionally using pressure-plate traps that activate the third time the pressure plate is triggered. If used very sparingly, this catches the "test the hallway with a summoned animal" crowd off-guard. Also a magical trap with a magic mouth trigger can be keyed to trigger only when it detects a specific creature type, such as humanoids.
First of all, when players rest frequently, take it as a compliment. It means they fear you. To challenge the frequent nappers, never use the same kill method twice, and find innovative ways for players to die. This minimizes the advantage of resting since casters can't effectively tailor their spell selection against an every-changing threat. Also, simply build traps that are designed to be effective against characters who are using their best abilities.
Dungeonscape contains a number of exotic construction materials for high-level dungeons. Check it out. If you don't have Dungeonscape, then suffice it to say that if you are confining your building materials to wood, plaster, and stone, you're limiting yourself. Also, simply ensure that you trap objectives more than you trap doors and passageways. A door can be bypassed with passwall. An objective cannot.
Telekinesis and mage hand both require line of effect. Utilize corners and small rooms to make it impossible to draw line of effect to doors and chests while standing in a "safe zone." For help with enlarging the kill zone of the traps, remember the previous comment about using volumetric trap effects. For example, lightning bolt fills a 60' long, 5' wide hallway quite nicely. Empowered explosive spell lightning bolt of the three thunders fills it even better, especially if spikes extrude from the wall at the back end of the hallway to "catch" players blown back by the explosive effect.
Arcane eye can't pass through solid barriers or planar boundaries. So, include solid barriers and planar boundaries at strategic points in the dungeon. A vault door is a good start.
Let them take 20 on their Search checks. That merely allows them to find the death. They can't take 20 on Disable Device, and by RAW you're rolling their Disable Device checks secretly. They'll learn to cringe when you say "You believe you have successfully disabled the trap."

Serenity
2010-02-10, 01:55 PM
Hmm...that's not really quite what I meant by lose. It seems to me that a standard party of 4 adventurers, cut off from backup would perish within a few rooms, if that. One of the fake entrance traps might well do them all in at once. If they have any chance of surviving to the end, it is an infinitesimal one. Every loss further cripples their functionality. This is cruel, certainly, but if a DM wants to kill the players without a chance of their success, he can just say 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' Allowing them to replace lost comrades, up to a certain limit, is in my opinion being kind to be cruel. You're playing 'fair' with them, giving them the opportunity for success--and letting them see more of the utter fiendishness of the dungeon, letting them see character after character falling prey to devious traps, or rent apart by four-armed gargoyles, or what have you.

One trap causing a TPK is more DM Fiat than a true answer to the challenge. Slaughtering them fair and square, again and again, with a never-ending procession of lethal traps, that's answering the thrown gauntlet in style.

If you do allow them backup, though--pregenerate all the characters they have access to. This has the added benefit of letting you control their spell lists and inventory.

Umael
2010-02-10, 02:23 PM
This is cruel, certainly, but if a DM wants to kill the players without a chance of their success, he can just say 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' Allowing them to replace lost comrades, up to a certain limit, is in my opinion being kind to be cruel.

Except that none of the traps actually are "rocks fall, everyone dies," if memory serves me. There is always something that can be done by the players to avoid the trap, to disarm it, to overcome it one way or another.

And to be fair, I see your way as a valid way. Please note that I have never accused you of being a weak or easy GM, but neither have I accused you of being a difficult GM. Given this level of ambigious interaction between the two of us, giving me backup (if I was to play under you and you were running ToH) would just be your way.

As an aside, an interesting compromise would be to allow them to replace their PCs (up to a limit), but deny them the chance to recover from a TPK (the last survivor can't come back to the camp and say, "It got them all! Bob, Bimbo, the Salami Brothers, everyone! I barely made it out alive! Who's with me for another go at it?").


One trap causing a TPK is more DM Fiat than a true answer to the challenge.

Without access to my ToH 3.5 pdf, I cannot review to successfully refute any of this, but I must ask - can you name one trap in that dungeon that is truly DM Fiat?

There is a difference between "rocks fall, everyone dies" and "chose... wisely". I don't recall any of the latter, and I'm pretty sure there is none of the former.

Akal Saris
2010-02-10, 04:30 PM
Spoiler alert!

Well, the cursed gem of wishing could turn out with a DM fiat if a player is stupid enough to use it - backfire/twist the wish as you want, and then hit the PCs with the giant fireball.

The very, very beginning with the 2 false tunnels could also be no-win scenarios if the entire party is deep inside the tunnel when it collapses.

Umael
2010-02-10, 06:37 PM
Akal Saris - neither of those are DM Fiat. They are cruel, mean, difficult to beat, and unfair, but they are not DM Fiat.

DM Fiat is the DM waving a hand and saying, "It is done!" and everyone's dead.

If I give you a choice between 100 buttons to press, one of them leads to salvation, the other 99 are instant-dead, that's not DM Fiat. Granted, it's not fair, but it's not DM Fiat.

Damastes
2010-02-11, 11:00 AM
Hey it's after. It took us long and we have less time that I hope. So we made it to false Acererak and they managed to destroy him (in two rounds - final blow was the first one from mace of lich smiting but it would be easy without it too). Only two persons believed that they won. I think the mace (as my player said a self destruct button by your bed) make it unmanageable to convince them that was final battle. So I hope in about a mouth we managed another session that will end tomb. Now they are more confident than ever that they are ready. Few comments:
1. Sphere of Annihilation worked - I always thought that it was too obvious. All but one of them read OOTS and I was sure that they will not be a problem for them to figure what it is. But after reading poem at the beginning Paladin decided to jump into it thinking that touching the devil will be dangerous. I even made (he asked) reflex save. He rolled twenty and was sure that there is no danger because he would not touch green face. First death. I played this sound afterwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYIR8KYbVmM
2. They were closely examining the door fresco but none of them thought to try to destroy it. They didn't find the door behind it.
3. They successfully without any bad consequences used first portal. Yet they were afraid to use any of the following ones. I don’t understand why but good for them
4. When they get to hall of spheres they go first to the black one and found their way to the chapel, they quickly thought about using magic ring as the key and they found secret door on the bottom of the pit. And all of that because of poem at the beginning
5. Second death was rouge that didn't found lighting trap in the altar. It almost killed barbarian. Rogue was resurrected using the one of the rod I gave them at the camp (I gave them 3 - one was destroyed with paladin so now they have only one). They tried to find something more in the altar and almost fireball trap went off right after one player said "what nothing in altar but a trap. That's stupid. Hey maybe there is another trap with fireball or poison or something"
Overall it went right. They were resting 3 times, and after incident with first summoned monster they didn't try it again. There was no gaseous form and sorcerer was only flying person. I recorded whole thing (sound) as kind of souvenir. The only thing that I didn’t like was the huge number of rooms they skipped. But now even if they want they don’t know how to leave this place. We will see what will come out of this next time. Thanks again for pointers.

Another_Poet
2010-02-11, 11:15 AM
Passwall won't be a problem - read through the module and you will find that any attempt to magically pass through the wall i.e. teleport, being ethereal, etc. results in demons appearing and trying to destroy the guilty party. Seriously.

Gaseous Form is the most useful trick, but they probably won't use it till after meeting their death a few times. Once they do think to try it, good for them. If they super abuse it then throw in something sneaky like windwalls that put them into a dangerous place, or a targeted dispel directly over one of the other traps.

ap

Umael
2010-02-11, 11:57 AM
Damastes - sounds about right.

So... do they have a bit more respect for you? Or just the dungeon?

Damastes
2010-02-11, 12:24 PM
I hope I didn't need to win they respect. Just they fear:smallbiggrin:
During last 6 months they haven't face any big defeat and that’s what makes them so confident. And still they are sure that they will beat tomb easy next time. They are looking just for phylactery and that will be end of problem with the lich. They are not aware that's the worst part is not after them.

BobTheDog
2010-02-11, 02:53 PM
Can't wait to hear about the green slime. :smallbiggrin: