PDA

View Full Version : How do most devils view desertion?



Frosty
2010-02-09, 02:29 PM
So in my current campaign, two devils (Imp and Erinyes) that have deserted from the normal inferno hierarchy are now back in hell for some adventuring. They've just admitted to a Pit Fiend that they have no masters. One of the devils has admitted that she has no lord now because her previous lord was too stupid and inefficient.

Now, I know almost all devils view their immediate superiors with contempt and hatred, and only PRETEND to be loyal as to not be killed, so the Pit Fiend can understand what the Erinyes is saying, but would any devil let another devil get away with running away from Hell entirely and abandonment of their devilish duties of bringing in more divine energies to Baator via corruption?

Satyr
2010-02-09, 02:46 PM
I guess the coorect answer is "You're working for me now. Any questions?"

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 02:49 PM
He would be very sympathetic and understanding... then deliver them to their former master at the earliest opportunity to curry favor.

If he outranks their former master, he'll probably either force them to work for him and, if they refuse, demote them.

clockworkmonk
2010-02-09, 02:49 PM
They should be punished in some form. If for no other reason than it sets a bad example for his own subordinates. The Pit fiend may have no problem with these two devils, but he certainly cannot let such a figure walk away freely, there must be a price paid.

randomhero00
2010-02-09, 02:58 PM
Devils are always scheming. So you could go about it many ways really. Whatever your devil ends up doing though, it must benefit a scheme of his in some way is all. If you're not into intrigue, then I'd say its as simple as, "you work for me now." Unless the dude they left heavily outranks him, but even then, I could see him trying to steal his underlings as part of some scheme.

Frosty
2010-02-09, 03:04 PM
He would be very sympathetic and understanding... then deliver them to their former master at the earliest opportunity to curry favor.

If he outranks their former master, he'll probably either force them to work for him and, if they refuse, demote them.

The Erinyes was passed around a lot in the past. First having worked for Fierna, then Glaysa, then Levistus, then Mephistopheles, then *technically* for Bel although really it was only Furcas (one of the recently promoted Dark Eight) using her) giving her orders/using her as a plaything.

So yeah, this Pit Fiend most likely does not outrank Furcas.

Optimystik
2010-02-09, 03:08 PM
The Erinyes was passed around a lot in the past. First having worked for Fierna, then Glaysa, then Levistus, then Mephistopheles, then *technically* for Bel although really it was only Furcas (one of the recently promoted Dark Eight) using her) giving her orders/using her as a plaything.

So yeah, this Pit Fiend most likely does not outrank Furcas.

Then his most likely course of action is to gain their trust, followed by betraying them to ingratiate himself with Furcas.

Unless they have something he can use to ascend himself - that is the only reason he wouldn't use them as bargaining chips of some kind.

randomhero00
2010-02-09, 03:10 PM
Then his most likely course of action is to gain their trust, followed by betraying them to ingratiate himself with Furcas.

Unless they have something he can use to ascend himself - that is the only reason he wouldn't use them as bargaining chips of some kind.

Well if he thinks he can get away with it, and that it will weaken his superior's position he'd do it.

Riffington
2010-02-09, 03:20 PM
Now, I know almost all devils view their immediate superiors with contempt and hatred,

So, this is the key.
You have underlings who view you with hatred and fear. NOT contempt. If they have contempt for you, they will try to kill you and take your place. Eventually, one will succeed. So it is key that your underlings know you will punish betrayal swiftly and brutally.

Your treatment of these traitors will be heavily colored by this fact. If you are in an unusually strong position (your underlings fear you sufficiently or are otherwise unable/unlikely to be able to rebel), you can get away with profiting from another demon's betrayal. If you are not, you need to set an example.

Now, what the diabolical public sees may not perfectly match what occurs... it's the perception of brutality that matters.

Frosty
2010-02-09, 03:26 PM
This Pit Fiend is likely not basking in the light of glory right now. He originally approached the group (Two humans. The Erinyes. The Imp Paladin) because he had just lost an engagement in the Blood War and wanted thought maybe he could smash some people who didn't belong. All of his most valuable lieutenants died, despite their best efforts, thanks to being outnumbered twenty to one. He was on his way back to report in so his superiors the humiliating defeat when he spotted this group. He stopped his assault due to being somewhat amused by the Imp in shining armor claiming that he is lordless.

And you're right. FEAR and hatred.

Riffington
2010-02-09, 03:35 PM
Ah. Well, this changes matters. He is not thinking about his underlings' loyalty right now because they can't take him (all dead). He is not thinking about hatred right now (except insofar as he may be in a bad mood) because he has a much more pressing concern:
how is he going to avoid a horrible punishment? The answer may involve enlisting these folks' aid (if he's truly desperate), or it may involve bringing them to his master in some sort of an "I know you need to torture someone, O Lord, and this traitor Paladin will provide you with more amusement than I possibly could" kind of way.

Altima
2010-02-09, 03:40 PM
The Pit Fiend could also believe that the whole 'desertion' business is a ruse for some greater goal.

Seriously, pit fiends are thousands of years old and tend to work gambits that would make Xanatos green with envy. You can manufacture just about any reaction you want--even if it seems insane.

As for deserters themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if devils denied their existence while covertly sending off a few powerful members to 'return' said deserters.

lsfreak
2010-02-09, 03:47 PM
Yea, the pit fiend is going to turn them all over to his master in an attempt to lessen his own punishment. He's going to befriend them first, especially if they didn't just see his lose an engagement, to keep them from trying to fight or run. If they DO attack, I don't know if he'll go lethal or not - depends on whether or not he thinks the deserters' corpses will still lessen his punishment. Otherwise he'll try and knock them all out and drag them back.

Kantolin
2010-02-09, 03:55 PM
'How do devils view desertion'? Eh. Whatever, it happens, probably a whole lot.

What is this pit fiend going to do? Generally, whatever benifits /him/ the most. If returning them to their previous masters is most benificial for him he'll do that, if keeping them is most benificial for him he'll do that, if keeping them and secretly returning them is most benificial he'll do that. If making an example of them is best, then he'll do that.

If these guys have serious potential, he'll try to keep on their good sides regardless of all else. If they don't, he won't care about their opinions on the matter.

If any of their previous owners are likely to care, he'll probably care more about their opinions unless he can accept them being insulted. If they're not, then eh.

So basically: Does this devil perceive any option as benificial? From the sounds of it, it sounds like none of their previous masters particularly care, so he may as well use them for now and figure they'll probably try to turn rogue at some point.

Grollub
2010-02-09, 04:07 PM
This Pit Fiend is likely not basking in the light of glory right now. He originally approached the group (Two humans. The Erinyes. The Imp Paladin) because he had just lost an engagement in the Blood War and wanted thought maybe he could smash some people who didn't belong. All of his most valuable lieutenants died, despite their best efforts, thanks to being outnumbered twenty to one. He was on his way back to report in so his superiors the humiliating defeat when he spotted this group. He stopped his assault due to being somewhat amused by the Imp in shining armor claiming that he is lordless.

And you're right. FEAR and hatred.


hmm.. maybe he should be thinking.. how did these two "pip-sqweeks" get away from their former masters; and maybe since he is in deep trouble with his master, for losing his army, how he could "defect"

Could be an interesting role-playing opportunity for the Pit Fiend to say to the group.. how bout I join you for a while :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2010-02-09, 04:13 PM
I'm loving the feedback so far guys. keep 'em coming. The Pit Fiend doesn't know that the Imp is a Paladin, although Imps don't usually go around with a shield of shining goodness (size of a dinner plate), a longsword (about the length of a dagger for a medium creature), and full-plate. The erinyes looks normal enough (decked out in magic items and lingerie). None of the Erinyes's previous lords really cared about her. It was the main reason she deserted. She was tired of being used and not being appreciated except physically. The Imp was serving as a familiar in the material plane when a high level paladin smashed the cultist the Imp was working for, and then look Leadership, choosing the Imp as a Cohort to reform the Imp (it worked, eventually). Ever since the Imp became a full on Paladin in his own right,he has tangled with and fought devils now and then, foiling disabolical plans. It's entirely possible someone might recognize him.

faceroll
2010-02-09, 04:18 PM
Devils are always scheming. So you could go about it many ways really. Whatever your devil ends up doing though, it must benefit a scheme of his in some way is all. If you're not into intrigue, then I'd say its as simple as, "you work for me now." Unless the dude they left heavily outranks him, but even then, I could see him trying to steal his underlings as part of some scheme.

I like this one best. If it's something as old and brilliant as a Pit Fiend, his plans can be REALLY convoluted.

Frosty
2010-02-09, 04:30 PM
I like this one best. If it's something as old and brilliant as a Pit Fiend, his plans can be REALLY convoluted.

So how do the Baatezu avoid Thirty Xanatos Pileups? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirtyXanatosPileup)

Wilhelm Scream
2010-02-09, 04:50 PM
So how do the Baatezu avoid Thirty Xanatos Pileups? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirtyXanatosPileup)

They don't.

Frosty
2010-02-09, 06:35 PM
I think I'll go with the idea of getting the group to help him correct his own failures. Thanks for the help.

Zaq
2010-02-09, 08:33 PM
I don't think anyone would be blasé about it. Devils are just as lawful as they are evil (which is why the diabolical pact is an option in the first place, literary influence on WotC notwithstanding). Short of outright treason, though, desertion is about the MOST egregiously non-Lawful act you can commit. Not only does it endanger your comrades (in a combat situation, anyway... such as the Blood War) and impair your unit's ability to serve your master's goals, it poses a huge threat to cohesion and order. It's extremely chaotic. No devil would tolerate a whisper of it from his/her/its own underlings, and any devil who saw it in someone else's underlings would immediately start calculating how to use this to their greatest benefit. If the deserters were of a higher rank than the devil who saw them, the devil would immediately run tattling to the deserters' master, like that kid you hated in second grade. If the deserters were of a lower rank, it depends on the rank of the masters of the deserters, but I'm hard-pressed to think of a situation in which the observer wouldn't find a way to do something right away. That something might be blackmail, or turning them in to curry favor, or outright demotion on the spot, but it would NOT go unpunished.

Basically, I guess I'm saying what everyone else has said, but the devils would be really forceful and decisive about it.

bosssmiley
2010-02-10, 10:37 AM
So how do the Baatezu avoid Thirty Xanatos Pileups? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirtyXanatosPileup)

Avoid 'em? Baatezu pour maple syrup on them and eat them for breakfast.

As for quitting the company. Baatezu are made of this (with added bat wings and fire):

http://1d4chan.org/images/c/c0/Commisarmoti.jpg

Frosty
2010-02-10, 01:28 PM
Actually the way I sort of envision devil society is sort of like feudal Japan. You have a lord who has another lord and so and so on until you ultimately owe allegiance to the Emperor. Places a lot of emphasis on loyalty and duty, except that devils are evil mofos. If this were Rokugan, the devils wouldn't be the Oni, they'd be the Lost with Asmodeus being Daigotsu.

ondonaflash
2010-02-11, 12:15 AM
Actually the way I sort of envision devil society is sort of like feudal Japan. You have a lord who has another lord and so and so on until you ultimately owe allegiance to the Emperor. Places a lot of emphasis on loyalty and duty, except that devils are evil mofos. If this were Rokugan, the devils wouldn't be the Oni, they'd be the Lost with Asmodeus being Daigotsu.

That... that was an incredibly Weeaboo statement right there...

megabyter5
2010-02-11, 08:08 AM
Devils see desertion as a perfectly viable option... But only to the individual devil, and every other devil will view it with contempt because it wasn't them.

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-11, 08:42 AM
I don't think anyone would be blasé about it. Devils are just as lawful as they are evil (which is why the diabolical pact is an option in the first place, literary influence on WotC notwithstanding). Short of outright treason, though, desertion is about the MOST egregiously non-Lawful act you can commit. Not only does it endanger your comrades (in a combat situation, anyway... such as the Blood War) and impair your unit's ability to serve your master's goals, it poses a huge threat to cohesion and order. It's extremely chaotic. No devil would tolerate a whisper of it from his/her/its own underlings, and any devil who saw it in someone else's underlings would immediately start calculating how to use this to their greatest benefit. If the deserters were of a higher rank than the devil who saw them, the devil would immediately run tattling to the deserters' master, like that kid you hated in second grade. If the deserters were of a lower rank, it depends on the rank of the masters of the deserters, but I'm hard-pressed to think of a situation in which the observer wouldn't find a way to do something right away. That something might be blackmail, or turning them in to curry favor, or outright demotion on the spot, but it would NOT go unpunished.

Basically, I guess I'm saying what everyone else has said, but the devils would be really forceful and decisive about it.

I second this - and what bossmiley said.. maybe becasue Im a Baatezu "fanboy".

The two devils, if recognized as guilty of a such a unlawful act, should be punished. They should be an example and so on.

If you want to "save" them, create a situation in which a Powerful Devil A can use them and their act as a way to strike indirectly, put in a bad light, or similar things, the Powerful Devil B formerly liable of their behaviour.

Shortly, they should die horribly. If not, is not because of mercy, because in Hell mercy does not exist. they should survive because useful for a political menuver. This could lead to several plot hooks.