playing a battle cleric and casting

[randomhero00]

For 3.5/pathfinder (and 4e just out of curiousity if you care to answer...)

So all casters must have their hands free to cast spells with somatic components, ya? Even divine? And all shields take a move action to drop? I was planning on playing a cleric that goes into melee often and was planning on going sword and board (er we play a hybrid version of pathfinder and 3.5 so if they have different rules on it not sure which will apply) but if it takes a move action before I can cast perhaps that's not worth it.

Ways around this? 2h weapon or I think there is an animated shield enchantment ya? That essentially lets me use a shield, and still cast spells? Is there something that lets me sheath/unsheath my weapon quicker? So I don't have to drop it, then pick it up?

[Optimystik]

Clerics can cast fine with shields, actually. The somatic components for their spells are simpler. I'm having trouble finding the exact rule though, someone else might link it before I do.

[randomhero00]

Clerics can cast fine with shields, actually. The somatic components for their spells are simpler. I'm having trouble finding the exact rule though, someone else might link it before I do.

Ah ok, I thought there was something like that, but I couldn't find it, so I thought I imagined it.

[Optimystik]

I believe it's as simple as - a shield doesn't actually take up your hand, it takes up your arm - which restricts your movement (causing ASF) but has no real drawback for a divine caster.

But divine casters can even cast spells while dual-wielding (e.g. Rangers) so there's something I'm overlooking.

[Claudius Maximus]

A Cleric can use a light shield or a buckler and use his somatic components, as these are strapped to the arm and leave a free hand. Heavy shields and tower shields need to be held in the hand, however, and thus preclude using that hand for somatic components.

[randomhero00]

A Cleric can use a light shield or a buckler and use his somatic components, as these are strapped to the arm and leave a free hand. Heavy shields and tower shields need to be held in the hand, however, and thus preclude using that hand for somatic components.

Where does that leave dual wielding rangers and heavy shield using paladins? That is, where are you getting that rule?

[Optimystik]

Okay, here's what I've dug up so far. From Rules Compendium:


Armor interferes with the gestures an arcane spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component. Unless they have a class feature that says otherwise, arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they’re wearing armor and/or using a shield.

Emphasis mine - they specify "arcane" repeatedly, which tells me that divine casters with shields are okay.

[randomhero00]

That's what I'd think. I can't recall any divine caster's need to drop their stuff before casting in a game before. But I usually play pure builds (casters or melee) so I haven't paid close attention.

[Curmudgeon]

From Magic Overview:
Somatic (S)

A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component. Makes no distinction between divine/arcane; it's the same for all spellcasters. The quote about armor was for Arcane Spell Failure, which is an additional difficulty beyond the minimum requirements for somatic components.
To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). So you've got to gesture freely (i.e., with one hand free) for somatic components, and get your hand on a focus (including divine focus) if the spell requires one.

[Optimystik]

All right, it took some digging but I found it. Shields are a maybe, weapons are a no. From Rules of the Game: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040810a)


* Somatic (S): You must have at least one hand free to complete a somatic component. The rules don't go into any detail about when you have a hand "free," but here are some general guidelines.

Your hand is free when you aren't carrying a weapon, a piece of equipment, or (usually) a shield. You can strap a buckler to your arm and use your hand to wield a weapon (albeit at a penalty), so there's no reason you couldn't use your buckler hand for a somatic component. The buckler might interfere a little bit, but that's what the arcane spell failure chance for the buckler is for. You also can strap a light shield to your forearm and still carry items in that hand, but you can't use the hand for anything else (such as wielding a weapon), so there's no good reason you should be able to use that hand to complete a somatic component. Since manipulating a material component (including a focus) is part of casting the spell, it's best to consider the hand that holds the material component or focus as "free" for purposes of completing a somatic component.

So, the semi-official line is that you have to clear one hand of everything but your component pouch/focus/holy symbol. I seriously doubt anyone's going to actually play that way though - many cleric spells are touch range, so forcing them to move in close without shield AC is unnecessary imo.

TBH I never considered this, since NWN lets you cast just fine with your shield on. Huh.

[faceroll]

If you really want to play by RAW, there's a feat out there that lets you cast through your weapon. Called Somatic Weaponry or something.

[randomhero00]

Hah, that's funny. Guess its one of those rules almost everyone ignores.

[Devils_Advocate]

many cleric spells are touch range, so forcing them to move in close without shield AC is unnecessary imo.
Eh? Why does the cleric have a weapon in his hand if he's not attacking with it (but using a touch attack instead)? If you want to threaten so that you can still make AoOs, there's always spiked gauntlets.

Animated shields (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated) are standard by the time they become affordable, of course. They also make it possible to combine a shield with a two-handed weapon.

A related thing that some players ignore is that you have to hold a metamagic rod to use it. Hey, suggested spellcaster nerf: They only get the benefits of two hands apiece. :smallwink:

[Tinydwarfman]

A related thing that some players ignore is that you have to hold a metamagic rod to use it. Hey, suggested spellcaster nerf: They only get the benefits of two hands apiece. :smallwink:

But couldn't you just have it touching your skin to channel through it? I would just stick on down my pants and be done w/ it.:smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

But couldn't you just have it touching your skin to channel through it? I would just stick on down my pants and be done w/ it.:smallbiggrin:

Gives a whole new meaning to "Rod of Extend"

[Gnaeus]

Or they just use a 2 handed weapon, since it is a free action to take your hand off the weapon and a free action to put it back on.

[Optimystik]

Or they just use a 2 handed weapon, since it is a free action to take your hand off the weapon and a free action to put it back on.

It's also a free action to drop your shield (but a move action to pick it up.)

[Devils_Advocate]

Upon reflection, how could you even cast a touch spell on someone without a free hand to, like, touch them?

Apparently, unstrapping your shield and droppping it, as well as strapping it to your arm so it can be used, is a move action. But like drawing a weapon, it may done for free in combination with a regular move if you have BAB +1.


But couldn't you just have it touching your skin to channel through it?
No, actually. :smallamused: The wording for each rod is "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are _____ed as though using the _____ Spell feat". You're only wielding something if you're holding in your hand. So there! :smallbiggrin:

Just having the right spell components on your person I'm fine with, though. I really thought that that was how material components worked in the first place, since they don't say that you need a free hand for those like you do for somatic components. But now I'm given to understand that you're supposed to be able to dig the right components out of your pouch in the middle of combat. As a free action. :smallconfused:

I'd just replace inexpensive material components and foci with a wand for wizards and sorcerers, I think. That gets rid of a lot of weirdness. (Yeah, I know, there are already magic wands in the game, and they're special spell-storing items. I'll admit it's not perfect...)

[Thurbane]

Hah, that's funny. Guess its one of those rules almost everyone ignores.
*sticks up hand* Uh, my group has always enforced that rule.

But then, we are one of those weird groups that enforces favored class rules. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

This rule just never comes up since sword & board sucks anyways. But yeah, to my knowledge nobody as much ignores this rule as just doesn't run into it often; it basically requires a Clerics with Heavy Steel Shield + Mace or something to matter.

[Munchkin-Masher]

Gives a whole new meaning to "Rod of Extend"

*slap*

NO!

[Dexam]

If you really want to play by RAW, there's a feat out there that lets you cast through your weapon. Called Somatic Weaponry or something.

Correct - it's in Complete Mage. Requires 5 ranks in Concentration and 5 ranks in Spellcraft.

Though when I was playing a sword-and-board Cleric before CM was released I used Quickdraw. Sheathe weapon: move action. Cast spell: standard action. Draw weapon: free action.

[Eldariel]

Though when I was playing a sword-and-board Cleric before CM was released I used Quickdraw. Sheathe weapon: move action. Cast spell: standard action. Draw weapon: free action.

That's a wasted feat there. Drop weapon: Free action. Cast spell: standard action. Pick up weapon: Move action.

[Thurbane]

That's a wasted feat there. Drop weapon: Free action. Cast spell: standard action. Pick up weapon: Move action.
True. Does provoke AoO though...

[Eldariel]

True. Does provoke AoO though...

So does sheathing a weapon.

[Optimystik]

*slap*

NO!

*rubs jaw unabashedly*


Eh? Why does the cleric have a weapon in his hand if he's not attacking with it (but using a touch attack instead)? If you want to threaten so that you can still make AoOs, there's always spiked gauntlets.

If you use a buckler, your other hand is free and can make touch attacks, cast spells etc.

But personally, I would say all shields are strapped on your arm, and not have them count.

[Vizzerdrix]

Can't you switch your weapon to your off hand if your using a light shield? Thought ya could and it was a free action.

[paddyfool]

When I've played a cleric, I've always given them either a buckler or nothing, to let them have a hand free.

[Khanderas]

The way I see it, Arcane casters tap into ambient power and needing delicate somatic movements pulling out the final steps of the spell they prepared.

A divine caster has somone else providing the power for such spells and therefore dont need to micro the movments as much.

One comparison I could do would be crossing your hands or weapons to ward off vampires. You can do that (possibly, depending on setting, religious) motion even if you are in plate with a buckler.

Vs somone that is rewriting reality by hacking into it (they would be needing alot more minute movements to "type" the proper sequence in).

[The White Knight]

An old DM of mine once allowed having a strap that would allow you to let your 1H weapon dangle from your wrist while you performed somatic components, and our group has just always ignored this little inconvenience ever since.

[Curmudgeon]

An old DM of mine once allowed having a strap that would allow you to let your 1H weapon dangle from your wrist while you performed somatic components
... because having a long, sharp blade whipping randomly about in close proximity to your body (while you're concentrating on something else) is such a good idea. :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

... because having a long, sharp blade whipping randomly about in close proximity to your body (while you're concentrating on something else) is such a good idea. :smalltongue:

Clerics traditionally use blunt weapons, actually. A dangling mace isn't very dangerous. (Unless the strap breaks of course, but that's what sabatons are for.)

[Thurbane]

So does sheathing a weapon.
Good point. :smallredface:

[AslanCross]

My group just ignores this rule. I figured it was too nitpicky.

[fryplink]

I've always ignored this one as DM

PHB page 125

you can use a light shielded hand, but not a heavy shielded hand, and tower shields are completely out of the question

it doesnt specifically site casting on the page, but you can carry something in that hand with a light shield and if i recall correctly you a clerics somatic component is his holy symbol (i could be completely wrong)

[Dexam]

That's a wasted feat there. Drop weapon: Free action. Cast spell: standard action. Pick up weapon: Move action.

Eh, I got a lot of good mileage out of Quickdraw for that character, especially as he also used a longbow a fair bit and I found it useful for quick-changing weapons. Though it was especially useful as that character was quite often airbourne during combat - dropping things when you're +60' up in the air... not such a good idea if you want them back in a hurry. :smallwink:
In addition, the PC's often found themselves fighting in unusual terrain: waist-deep in swamp water; knee-deep in powder snow; rickety wooden bridges over lava-filled chasms... that sort of thing. Dropping stuff you wanted back was often a really, really bad idea. Your mileage may vary, and usually does. :smallamused:

[brann miekka]

......chained gauntlets anyone?

[LordBlades]

Can't you switch your weapon to your off hand if your using a light shield? Thought ya could and it was a free action.

You can.

From the SRD:

Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.


So pass weapon to shield hand (free action), cast spell, take weapon back(free action). that's how we've always played in my group, until clerics hit lvl 7 and picked up divine power and 2-handers.

[Zeb The Troll]

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