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View Full Version : [3.5] Updating the Claw



Cieyrin
2010-02-09, 04:57 PM
A less common book but Enemies and Allies was an interesting 3.0 book, which brought to us one of my favorite groups of critters, the Claw, who were an adventuring party of monstrous creatures.

Now, that I look back at the book and the characters, I realize that their statistics don't really live up to the image they portrayed. I mean, they're built entirely Core, with the suboptimal feat options and all that jazz.

Thus, I propose rebuilding the 5 members with better class and feat choices, among other things. Leaving them their base monster type would be good, though subraces/variations may be permissable. The 5 members are as follows:

Anrenay: Male Ettercap Cleric 8
Comar: Male Troll Fighter 8
Blind Jak: Umber Hulk Monk 5
Durlob: Male Phase Spider Rogue 8
Wallach: Female Psuedodragon Sorcerer 12

My first thoughts are making Comar a Warblade/Bloodclaw Master, as he's very claw attack oriented as is, which would make making him a Tiger Claw adept particularly fitting. Blind Jak could be an Unarmed Swordsage with a focus in Setting Sun.

Aim for putting them at CR 12-13 and we should be good to go, methinks. Thanks for any input I get for this! :smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2010-02-09, 05:43 PM
Anrenay is fine if you remember to use the non-associated class rules (which I assume the 3.0 version didn't). Ettercap is 5HD for cr3, if you want a cr11 version, that gives you 11 cleric lvs to play with. So you get an ettercap cleric11 for cr11 (or ettercap cleric13 for cr13). Not a shabby deal.

Wallach is fine too - pseudodragon dragon12 is cr12 (again using non-associated rules). Only thing is its short lifespan. It could qualify for the dracolich template...:smallamused:

It would qualify for the various dragonblood prcs as well. Also, since there is little reason to stay in sorc past lv6, you could consider prc'ing out into a casting prc such as abjurant champion.

For Durlob, I think martial adept is the only way to make up for his having only 1 attack at higher lvs. Advance him to 8HD (cr6), then tack on 6-7 lvs of swordsage or warblade. Focus in standard-action strikes (great synergy with his phase ability), plus some counters and boosts for defense.

Not sure about blind jak. What is the reason behind his monk lvs?

Cieyrin
2010-02-09, 06:49 PM
I don't think there's much reason behind his Monk levels, just that he fights with a blindfold so that he doesn't confuse his allies by accident.

As for associated/non-associated, remember that the levels will become associated after you get enough levels to equal their hit dice. So, in Anrenay's case, after he hits Cleric 5, he starts getting higher and higher. So he's CR 5 at ettercap Cleric 5 and thus ettercap cleric 12 for CR 12. Same deal for Wallach, pseudodragon Sorc 2 for CR 3 and then psuedodragon Sorc 12 for CR 12.

Looking at it that closely, it looks like they pegged 'em right, actually.

As for redoing them, i mean PRCing away and actual good feats. I mean, Anrenay has Lightning Reflexes and Multiattack, not to mention Brew Potion. We can do better, I say.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-09, 06:52 PM
He should wear 2 eye patches instead: easier to remove if he wanted to confuse enemy.
I think he should have enough Psion levels to have touchsight (do he can see).

Cieyrin
2010-02-09, 07:08 PM
He should wear 2 eye patches instead: easier to remove if he wanted to confuse enemy.
I think he should have enough Psion levels to have touchsight (do he can see).

Why not Psychic Warrior it up and then just Synesthete and be awesome from there?

Runestar
2010-02-09, 07:23 PM
Gaze attacks can be turned off at will, so there isn't much reason for the hulk to wear a blindfold.

There is however a feat in savage species/serpent kingdoms which lets you use your gaze attack as an active gaze or something. Could be useful for selective targetting.

Cieyrin
2010-02-09, 07:26 PM
Gaze attacks can be turned off at will, so there isn't much reason for the hulk to wear a blindfold.

There is however a feat in savage species/serpent kingdoms which lets you use your gaze attack as an active gaze or something. Could be useful for selective targetting.

Sure it can be turned on and off, it was a matter of friendly fire, really. When it was on, anybody got hit by it, which could screw everybody else in your party.

Runestar
2010-02-09, 07:32 PM
I am just saying there is no reason to blind it anymore. It can look at anyone just fine without affecting them accidentally with its gaze attack if it chooses to. :smallsmile:

I suppose monk is fine, to add some variety to the group. Just treat it as non-associated.

As for the troll, I guess barb or barb/fighter would be fine. Don't forget steadfast determination to crank that poor will save. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe troll barb6/fighter2 as a base.

Lapak
2010-02-09, 09:13 PM
I must say I love the idea of an Umber Hulk Swordsage, especially a Setting Sun swordsage.

If you want an alternate path for the Troll, though, and if he loves the claw attacks - you could go Totemist, pile on a huge number of natural attacks and use meldshaping to give them more punch.

Cieyrin
2010-02-09, 09:52 PM
I must say I love the idea of an Umber Hulk Swordsage, especially a Setting Sun swordsage.

If you want an alternate path for the Troll, though, and if he loves the claw attacks - you could go Totemist, pile on a huge number of natural attacks and use meldshaping to give them more punch.

Ooo, Claws, Claws everywhere!:smallamused:

thorgrim29
2010-02-09, 10:32 PM
Sorry to pop in, but what's the associated/non-associated thing?

Runestar
2010-02-09, 10:45 PM
Sorry to pop in, but what's the associated/non-associated thing?

It is in the MM. Classes which do not directly improve the power of a monster add only 1/2 cr per class lv, up to that monster's HD.

For example, a gnoll is cr1. Sorc might be considered non-associated. So a gnoll sorc2 would be cr2 (not cr3), because each of the 2 sorc lvs add +1/2 cr. After wards, each subsequent class lv increases cr at a 1:1 rate.

Eldariel
2010-02-10, 02:29 AM
I must say I love the idea of an Umber Hulk Swordsage, especially a Setting Sun swordsage.

I'd say SS works great also since you can give him Hearing the Air. Everything falls just right for that; SS 5 gets a stance, you get 5 SS levels, Umber Hulk has 8 Racial HD giving him base IL of 4 and thus IL 9 on SS 5.

Cieyrin
2010-02-16, 04:03 PM
Bloody internet being out so I can't post =(

Bringing this back up to speed, I think we've got a good basis for reimagining Blind Jak as an Unarmed Swordsage and Comar as a number of things, most of them enhancing or giving him more claws for ripping things apart.

The only one who hasn't gotten any input is poor Durlob, Phase Spider Rogue. I know we could do something fun with him, the question is what. Perhaps make him into a Factotum? He has potential as an extradimensional Spring Attacker, as I believe there's a method to quickening his shifting from a move to a free action, which could be all sorts of fun.

Actually, we can ignore Spring Attack entirely, as he can shift in, do whatever with his standard and shift back as a move. Using inspiration for those times when he needs to maneuver a bit, he should be interesting and infuriating to anyone who has to deal with him.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 04:04 PM
And here I thought we were talking about the guy who kept shouting "I'll get you next time, Gadget!"... :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 04:11 PM
Bloody internet being out so I can't post =(

Bringing this back up to speed, I think we've got a good basis for reimagining Blind Jak as an Unarmed Swordsage and Comar as a number of things, most of them enhancing or giving him more claws for ripping things apart.

The only one who hasn't gotten any input is poor Durlob, Phase Spider Rogue. I know we could do something fun with him, the question is what. Perhaps make him into a Factotum? He has potential as an extradimensional Spring Attacker, as I believe there's a method to quickening his shifting from a move to a free action, which could be all sorts of fun.

Actually, we can ignore Spring Attack entirely, as he can shift in, do whatever with his standard and shift back as a move. Using inspiration for those times when he needs to maneuver a bit, he should be interesting and infuriating to anyone who has to deal with him.

Lurk- Psionic Hitman?
He would need a good Int, but it might work well if psionics allowed. Heck, why not Factorum and Lurk levels.

Cieyrin
2010-02-16, 05:02 PM
Lurk- Psionic Hitman?
He would need a good Int, but it might work well if psionics allowed. Heck, why not Factorum and Lurk levels.

I'm not terribly familiar with Lurks, given they're in Complete Crap but I'll give 'em a read over to see how they tick and mesh with Factotum. Maybe they're another of them geodes to be found in the steaming pile that just needs to be cracked open to find the awesome inside.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 05:20 PM
I'm not terribly familiar with Lurks, given they're in Complete Crap but I'll give 'em a read over to see how they tick and mesh with Factotum. Maybe they're another of them geodes to be found in the steaming pile that just needs to be cracked open to find the awesome inside.

Important note: don't think of them as Psionic rogue because they aren't. They can sneak attack, but the other abilities are better to focus on (mental damage attacks, stunning attack, etc).

They basically have great class features.
You can stun at 1st level, but need Improved lurk feat to do that (normally 3rd, but but feat treats you as 2 levels higher).
You can Ignore all concealment on an attack.
Deal Int or Wisdom damage (no save, by 3rd with feat).
Auto deny dex to foe by 6th or 8th (no need to roll feint, works against uncanny dodge).

I mean, they start petering out of cool stuff after level 9, but till than very nice stuff.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-16, 05:20 PM
Instead of lurk consider psychic rouge (found online) it trades a slower SA progression for psionic casting akin to a psychic warrior

Cieyrin
2010-02-18, 03:35 PM
Important note: don't think of them as Psionic rogue because they aren't. They can sneak attack, but the other abilities are better to focus on (mental damage attacks, stunning attack, etc).

They basically have great class features.
You can stun at 1st level, but need Improved lurk feat to do that (normally 3rd, but but feat treats you as 2 levels higher).
You can Ignore all concealment on an attack.
Deal Int or Wisdom damage (no save, by 3rd with feat).
Auto deny dex to foe by 6th or 8th (no need to roll feint, works against uncanny dodge).

I mean, they start petering out of cool stuff after level 9, but till than very nice stuff.

I read up on Lurk and it does seem like it'd work fairly well. The only issue is that Phase Spiders have an Int penalty. I suppose it shouldn't be a major issue, as their powers don't seem to really have DCs that need pumping and they just lose out on some power points. Pumping stat points into Int and picking up an appropriate item of Intelligence should handle it for the most part, though.

Also, picking up Expanded Knowledge for Hustle so Durlob can get between the Ethereal and Material quickly is golden.

Back to Comar, I looked over Bloodclaw Master and it looks like he really won't get much out of it, as most of the features granted he already has by virtue of being a troll. The only thing he really gets is Pounce, which is easily achievable otherwise.

So for Comar, I'm thinking maybe straight Warblade, maybe a dip into Barbarian for Lion Totem Pounce. Or would it be better to make him Feral to pick up Pounce that way? Also, I'm still open to making him Totemist, though his BAB will suffer that way and he'll miss out on Tiger Claw maneuvers.

...Troll Warblade/Totemist? :smallamused:

Eldariel
2010-02-18, 03:42 PM
Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) > Lurk. It's the same, except not horrible.


And Bloodclaw Master gets full Str on secondary Claw-attacks. That alone is worth it. Especially with Totemist. It's painful. Warblade/Crusader could be interesting.

I think the idea is that he is a rather standard warrior with ranged and melee skills. Warblade-base does that just about as well as possible. Crusader gives you bow-proficiencies and some interesting options.

Cieyrin
2010-02-18, 04:08 PM
Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) > Lurk. It's the same, except not horrible.


And Bloodclaw Master gets full Str on secondary Claw-attacks. That alone is worth it. Especially with Totemist. It's painful. Warblade/Crusader could be interesting.

I think the idea is that he is a rather standard warrior with ranged and melee skills. Warblade-base does that just about as well as possible. Crusader gives you bow-proficiencies and some interesting options.

The problem I see with Psychic Rogue is that at the level Durlob is, he wouldn't have access to Hustle, which is tactically superior, methinks.

As for Bloodclaw, Troll claw attacks are both primary, so he has full strength, anyways. The bite is secondary, which wouldn't work with Bloodclaw, since bites aren't Tiger Claw weapons. :smallsigh:

Now, it really depends on how much Totemist he actually gets and how many melds give 'em claw attacks that Bloodclaw may become relevant.

On the other hand, as you said, Comar is supposed to ooze standard warrior, so maybe just making him full Warblade may be for the best.

Sophismata
2010-02-19, 09:25 AM
The problem I see with Psychic Rogue is that at the level Durlob is, he wouldn't have access to Hustle, which is tactically superior, methinks.

What about an Ardent with some Practiced manifester thrown in for his racial HD? It's Wisdom dependant, to boot. You can customise the power lists (though Freedom mantle already grants Hustle) using one of the web ACF's.

Cieyrin
2010-02-19, 03:17 PM
What about an Ardent with some Practiced manifester thrown in for his racial HD? It's Wisdom dependant, to boot. You can customise the power lists (though Freedom mantle already grants Hustle) using one of the web ACF's.

I don't believe you're able to replace racial HD with class levels, except in the case of a single racial HD. Phase Spiders have 5 racial HD, so no dice on that front.

As for maybe splicing in Ardent levels, it'd depend when they get Hustle, really. Isn't there a feat to pick up a Mantle, with the powers that go with it, anyways? That sounds better to me than having multiple manifesting classes and also more efficient than Expanded Knowledge(Hustle) if I can get other things with it.

Eldariel
2010-02-19, 03:36 PM
I don't believe you're able to replace racial HD with class levels, except in the case of a single racial HD. Phase Spiders have 5 racial HD, so no dice on that front.

Ardent works interestingly. See, they derive what powers they can learn off their manifester level. Thanks to this, with Practiced Spellcaster, they can effectively make up for 4 lost levels power-picking wise (they don't retroactively learn extra powers or gain extra mantles or such, of course, but their power access itself is undisrupted).

And Expanded Knowledge enables learning Hustle anyways, regardless of class.

Cieyrin
2010-02-19, 03:59 PM
Ardent works interestingly. See, they derive what powers they can learn off their manifester level. Thanks to this, with Practiced Spellcaster, they can effectively make up for 4 lost levels power-picking wise (they don't retroactively learn extra powers or gain extra mantles or such, of course, but their power access itself is undisrupted).

And Expanded Knowledge enables learning Hustle anyways, regardless of class.

Oh...misread misread! @_@

Ardent levels with Practiced Manifester to make up for the racial hit dice, I somewhat comprehend now.

Also, for Expanded Knowledge, you have to be able to manifest at a level above the level of the power you want to learn with Expanded Knowledge, which is why Lurk works a tad better than Psychic Rogue in this instance, as they have 3rd level powers by 7th, while the Psychic Rogue will not. Since Hustle is Psychic Warrior 2 at it's lowest (maybe lower through the Freedom mantle, afb), that makes Lurk a more feasible choice for having sneak dice as well.

I guess I'll read over the wonders of Ardents when I get the chance, though that probably won't be till after this weekend, as I have to be out of town and away from my library. :smallsigh:

Sophismata
2010-02-20, 12:35 AM
Good luck, then.