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Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-09, 09:40 PM
In my thread about Mage-slaying builds someone sujested to use this basic one Psion 6/Ranger1/Slayer 10/ XXXXXX

The above build looks simple enough it will be accepted without much problem so I am considering using it for an Eberron Game.

Althougt it was suggested in a mage slaying thread, psionics in general is versatile enough it my fly to do it.

Now I was wondering on which would be the best discipline for a psygish build like this, my first though was the psychometabolism one, since it has some powerful buffs such as metamorphosis.

Looking deeper into that I remembered that changeling got some racial sub level for egoist

1st level: loose bonus feat gain a +1 ML when manifesting a powert target on you from the Psychometabolism discipline (not so hot)

3rd lvl loose 1 power known gain the ability to reform the personality of your psycrystal as a full round action (not so hot until racial sub level 5)

5th level loose bonus feat gain chameleon, hustle, thicken skin and metamorphoshis as powers known (really good since IIRC some of the power such as hustle are Psywar only and it counters the downside of racial sub 1)

Also all racial sub level get 4+INT skill points instead of 2+INT

My idea concerning this build is something like

Ranger 1 (trying to find an interesting variant but I still need to get Track so any advice is apreciated)
Egoist 6 (with racial sub levels 3 & 5)
Slayer 10

Planning on using a collision (eventually mindfeeder transmuting) falchion and getting Improved critical on it.

So what does the playground thinks, advices, believes concerning my egoist
slayer?

Thanks in Advance

erikun
2010-02-09, 10:05 PM
+1 ML is good, as you can augment higher (or reach a critical augment one level sooner) and your powers last one more round/minute/hour of duration. How useful this is depends on what you would be getting instead for your 1st level bonus feat, of course.

Changing the personality of your psicrystal doesn't sound all that impressive. Remember that learning a new power (outside your normal leveling) requires a feat - and is worth it, at that. It also means you are delaying learning any 2nd-level powers until Lv.4, in exchange for a floating +2 to one skill check. It's not a detrimental loss, buy you may be wishing for the power later.

For the 5th level ability, is it powers known or just powers added to your powers list? The first is absurdly good, at that's four powers for the equilivant of one feat. If the are just added to your powers list, then you need to consider if you want to pick them up.

Any reason for Ranger? Psychic Warrior is another option if you just need proficiency in weapons and armor. Then again, you're not exactly losing much by choosing Ranger over other classes.


Overall, I'd suggest the 1st level substitution, unless you have a feat you'd rather pick up at that point. I also recommend the 5th level substitution - assuming you learn the powers, or you want to pick up more than too if they are just added to your powers list.

I recommend against the 3rd level substitution, unless you think it's particularly neat or fitting for the character. I don't really have much comment on the Ranger, although I can't find anything more fitting. It looks like you're just picking it up for the Track feat.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-09, 10:12 PM
+1 ML is good, as you can augment higher (or reach a critical augment one level sooner) and your powers last one more round/minute/hour of duration. How useful this is depends on what you would be getting instead for your 1st level bonus feat, of course.

Changing the personality of your psicrystal doesn't sound all that impressive. Remember that learning a new power (outside your normal leveling) requires a feat - and is worth it, at that. It also means you are delaying learning any 2nd-level powers until Lv.4, in exchange for a floating +2 to one skill check. It's not a detrimental loss, buy you may be wishing for the power later.

For the 5th level ability, is it powers known or just powers added to your powers list? The first is absurdly good, at that's four powers for the equilivant of one feat. If the are just added to your powers list, then you need to consider if you want to pick them up.

Any reason for Ranger? Psychic Warrior is another option if you just need proficiency in weapons and armor. Then again, you're not exactly losing much by choosing Ranger over other classes.


Overall, I'd suggest the 1st level substitution, unless you have a feat you'd rather pick up at that point. I also recommend the 5th level substitution - assuming you learn the powers, or you want to pick up more than too if they are just added to your powers list.

I recommend against the 3rd level substitution, unless you think it's particularly neat or fitting for the character. I don't really have much comment on the Ranger, although I can't find anything more fitting. It looks like you're just picking it up for the Track feat.

Well the +1 manifester level sounds good, I forgot that ML goberned all those variables (especially the augment one) so I think I'll take that one too.

the psycrystal change is more of a Roleplay perspective I would love to discuss the different personalities of the psycrystal plus a +2 to many different checks is worthy

The Sub levels name is Extra Power Known so yeah I get the equivalent of 4 expanded knowledge for a feat (and 4+int skill points)

The ranger is for track, proficiencies and skill points.

FishAreWet
2010-02-09, 10:18 PM
You don't have to take every racial sub level.

Glimbur
2010-02-09, 10:19 PM
A Ranger dip also gets a point of BAB over a psy war dip, at the expense of some PP. The high int a Psion needs suggests Warblade to me, but that means two different power sources on one character which could get irritating. On the other hand... concentration checks as saves via Diamond Mind maneuvers.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-09, 10:22 PM
@FishAreWet: I know that I don't have to but I want to, the abilities the sub level have are quite worthile IMHO.

@Gimbur: Yeah ranger is mostly for BAB and track, warblade though interesting and maybe better means that I need to get track in a traditional manner (IE burning a feat)

erikun
2010-02-09, 10:26 PM
Remember that you can't pick up psionic feats at 1st level, if you take Ranger (or Warblade) first. So one level of Warblade, spending your first level feat on Track, would certainly be reasonable.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-09, 10:27 PM
Maybe, but that means I am stuck with level 1 manoubers....

Tackyhillbillu
2010-02-09, 10:38 PM
Sudden leap is awesome.

Siosilvar
2010-02-09, 11:02 PM
Maybe, but that means I am stuck with level 1 manoubers....

Egoist 4/Warblade 1/Egoist +2/Slayer 10 gets you 2nd level maneuvers.

EDIT: Nevermind, took the quote out of context... move along.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-09, 11:49 PM
If the DM is cool with it, an Egoist 6/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/XXX 3 can snag 17 ML and at least 15 BAB. Make sure it's full manifesting and 3/4 BAB and you're golden (I'd recommend Anarchic Initiate, for spiking ML). Alternately, an Ardent would work wonders, as then you'd end up with higher base BAB and could sack more manifester levels (well...1 more) and still reach 20 ML at 20th with Practiced Manifester.

If powers known will be a concern, go over the Erudite with the DM. Make a point of showing him how the Unique Powers/Level/Day works, and note the difference between the actual rules text and the erroneous table. You'll ultimately, depending upon how you play him, have access to every spell and power in existence.

Finally, as to Ardent...the 10th level ACF is crazy good, like to the point of always taking 10 levels of Ardent good. If you have the option of using the Alternate Mantles ACF (allowing power swapping/adding to mantles) with Dominant Ideal, DO IT. You don't lose psionic focus when manifesting metapsionic feats with powers off your dominant ideal mantle, and with "Pimp My Mantle" in play, that's all the powers (up to 10 of them) you'll most likely be using the most that require expenditure of psionic focus.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 10:39 AM
@KellKerahptis: I am not familiar with the Erudite except the spell to power (or something like that) erudite which AFAIK is one of the MOST broken classes in D&D (which is something to say considering things such as CoD-zilla, Incantrix, Dweomerkeeper, etc).

So I guess I'll keep with psion.

Optimystik
2010-02-10, 10:43 AM
Even without the most favorable (read: broken) UPD interpretation for Erudite, nothing is stopping them from simply making power stones for their utility powers and manifesting them from there, or even manifesting them from the heads of other psionic characters, dorjes etc. Powers manifested from external sources do not count towards an Erudite's UPD.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 12:53 PM
I keep hearing about how Hyperconcious is the best things that happened to psionics, I know it is a 3rd party book but maybe (if I can find it) I will ask my DM to allow it, so the question is, is it worthwhile to look for it?

on an unrelated note what about gear for psion, does a collision falchion seems a good idea? also which other gear would be useful for a psygish? my current list (made AFB) includes an enchanted mithral breastplate, a vest that changes shape with you (for changeling ability synergy), boots of speed and not much else. what would be a good option to consider assuming Standard WBL (49k IIRC)

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 01:01 PM
I keep hearing about how Hyperconcious is the best things that happened to psionics, I know it is a 3rd party book but maybe (if I can find it) I will ask my DM to allow it, so the question is, is it worthwhile to look for it?Hyperconscious is excellent. It was released by a 3rd party company, but was written by Bruce Cordell (the man who was responsible for the XPH in the first place). It is a very good resource.


on an unrelated note what about gear for psion, does a collision falchion seems a good idea? also which other gear would be useful for a psygish? my current list (made AFB) includes an enchanted mithral breastplate, a vest that changes shape with you (for changeling ability synergy), boots of speed and not much else. what would be a good option to consider assuming Standard WBL (49k IIRC)Collision is an excellent weapon enhancement. You should definitely get a headband of intellect, and save pp using +1 arrows of manifesting.

You may consider using a manyfanged dagger (from Serpent Kingdoms). It gives you x4 damage per hit. Add in collision and a high Str score... Even better if you lift the manyfanged enhancement and toss it on, say, a lance. Ride your psicrystal into battle using Spirited Charge and psionic lion's charge, and you can cause some serious painage.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 01:07 PM
Hyperconscious is excellent. It was released by a 3rd party company, but was written by Bruce Cordell (the man who was responsible for the XPH in the first place). It is a very good resource.

Collision is an excellent weapon enhancement. You should definitely get a headband of intellect, and save pp using +1 arrows of manifesting.

You may consider using a manyfanged dagger (from Serpent Kingdoms). It gives you x4 damage per hit. Add in collision and a high Str score... Even better if you lift the manyfanged enhancement and toss it on, say, a lance. Ride your psicrystal into battle using Spirited Charge and psionic lion's charge, and you can cause some serious painage.
Isn't Serpent Kingdoms a forgotten Realms book? I am allowed any book except setting specific ones.

But I am not sure on charging with a lance, I need to be really cautios on the level on optimization when I play with this group.

Also isn't psionics lion charge a psywar only power? ewither way my intention was to emulate pounce using hustle and a full attack.
I was also kinda hoping to recieve a more general advice concerning gear, right now I think I will stick to falchion and a backup ranged weapon.
Either way thanks for the incredible advice.

Draz74
2010-02-10, 01:09 PM
Isn't Serpent Kingdoms a forgotten Realms book? I am allowed any book except setting specific ones.

Yes, Serpent Kingdoms is an FR book. And Manyfanged Dagger is very overpowered, too; only being in the same book as Pun-Pun's main ability keeps it from being an oft-cited object of pure cheesiness. (By contrast with Manipulate Form, though, it's positively timid.)

faceroll
2010-02-10, 01:12 PM
For the falchion, I would recommend a scabbard of keen edges.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 01:13 PM
Yes, Serpent Kingdoms is an FR book. And Manyfanged Dagger is very overpowered, too; only being in the same book as Pun-Pun's main ability keeps it from being an oft-cited object of pure cheesiness. (By contrast with Manipulate Form, though, it's positively timid.)

So serpent kingdoms is the home of the PUN PUN!!! god I need to see that book, not that I intend to use pun pun....maybe as an overdeity in my campaing...hmmm.

but still I don'¡t think it will fly in an eberron game

Edit:
@faceroll: I plan on getting improved critical (falchion) eventually, true it is a waste of feat when we factor keen enchantment or the scarabard; but since I am trying to tone down optimization it is better.

Optimystik
2010-02-10, 01:21 PM
I keep hearing about how Hyperconcious is the best things that happened to psionics, I know it is a 3rd party book but maybe (if I can find it) I will ask my DM to allow it, so the question is, is it worthwhile to look for it?

Hyperconscious benefits:

- 19 new PrCs (most of which are 8/10 manifesting, like Constructor/Crystal Master - and very flavorful.)
- A fix for Metamind (raising it to 7/10 manifesting - 9th-level powers, and letting it keep Font of Power)
- Mindscape Battle rules (imagine - having a pitched duel with one's rival(s) across a crowded tavern, without any of the patrons even being aware)
- Great feats: Persistent Power, Latent Psi (gives PLAs), Permanent Focus (treat a chosen feat you have as though you're always focused, even if you expend your focus on something else), Subconscious/Preconscious Power (manifest powers even while unconscious) etc.
- New Powers: Causal Loop (Force creatures to repeat actions - not mind-affecting), Defer Fatality (keep yourself from dying), Probability Mantle (Psionic Mirror Image), as well as updates to XPH powers (e.g. Psionic Dominate can now be augmented to hours/level instead of concentration), etc.
- New Items: Psicrystal staves(a staff that you can put your psicrystal in, which then has slots for other beneficial gems) and Synaptic Masks (head slot psionic items that can be sharded for competence skill bonuses)/I], etc.
- New Monsters, templates and subtypes: [I](Dreamborn, Fungiform etc.)

I'm sure someone more familiar with the book can give a more comprehensive review - my perusal has been brief at best. But with the dearth of psionic supplements out there, I welcome this one. :smallsmile:

Draz74
2010-02-10, 01:23 PM
Edit:
@faceroll: I plan on getting improved critical (falchion) eventually, true it is a waste of feat when we factor keen enchantment or the scarabard; but since I am trying to tone down optimization it is better.

Nah, Improved Critical is actually good optimization in the right combinations. :smallcool: (Namely, when you put it together with things that don't stack with Keen, like Enervating weapons (MIC), that have special effects on a crit. And then throw in the paladin spell Bless Weapon.)

faceroll
2010-02-10, 01:36 PM
Edit:
@faceroll: I plan on getting improved critical (falchion) eventually, true it is a waste of feat when we factor keen enchantment or the scarabard; but since I am trying to tone down optimization it is better.

/shrug
Ok, but you plan on using metamorphosis. I'd think a little item optimization wouldn't be as egregious as turning into a troll, but different strokes, I guess.

If I was going to waste a feat, I'd waste it on something cool, like Up the Walls.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 02:08 PM
/shrug
Ok, but you plan on using metamorphosis. I'd think a little item optimization wouldn't be as egregious as turning into a troll, but different strokes, I guess.

If I was going to waste a feat, I'd waste it on something cool, like Up the Walls.

One thing is using a power and other is abusing, besides the XP cost will makes me want to stay away from metamorphosis until it is clearly needed.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 02:09 PM
One thing is using a power and other is abusing, besides the XP cost will makes me want to stay away from metamorphosis until it is clearly needed.That's greater metamorphosis, bub. There's no XP cost on the garden variety metamorphosis.

Also, you can nab any power you want off of the psychic warrior list with Expanded Knowledge and/or research. You can do the same with discipline powers, so go look for some cool ones to nab.

Since you're going egoist anyway, consider taking your first level as rogue (instead of ranger), take the changeling ACF (Races of Eberron) and martial rogue ACF (feats as fighter instead of sneak attack, in the SRD), use the martial feat to get something useful, and then take Track as your first level feat.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 02:12 PM
That's greater metamorphosis, bub. There's no XP cost on the garden variety metamorphosis.

:smalleek: forgot about that part..... well in other campaing one friend of my abuses shapechange so I guess I have green light with metamorphosis.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 02:12 PM
I edited my previous post. Check it out.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 02:16 PM
The problem with taking feat rouge is that I still need to get the BAB 4 to enter Slayer at 7. so ranger is still the best option. thanks for the suggestion though.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 02:18 PM
If you had a skillful weapon...

Which you could have as a warforged, since you can enhance your slam as such...

Darn.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 02:22 PM
If you had a skillful weapon...

Which you could have as a warforged, since you can enhance your slam as such...

Darn.

Don't know if my DM would allow that, he called cheesy to qualify for fiendblooded as a duskblade and use it to advance Warlock casting (which by raw it can) in a gestalt game (the build was Duskblade 10//fighter 1/warlock 4/Fiendblooded 5 BTW). So meh I'll stick with ranger, maybe I can get a modification of FE Arcanist to aplly to Psionist (?) it is not that different and it also mesh well with the FE granted by Slayer

Zom B
2010-02-10, 02:28 PM
All right, I have to ask: Why Psion 6? You get the same max PL you had at Psion 5, and one higher BAB and saves and some more PP and powers known. I mean, the reason you're going into Psion is for powers, so stopping one level after getting a new PL doesn't make much sense to me. About the same reaction I get to someone wanting to stop on an even-numbered wizard level, IOW.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 02:33 PM
All right, I have to ask: Why Psion 6? You get the same max PL you had at Psion 5, and one higher BAB and saves and some more PP and powers known. I mean, the reason you're going into Psion is for powers, so stopping one level after getting a new PL doesn't make much sense to me. About the same reaction I get to someone wanting to stop on an even-numbered wizard level, IOW.

I need BAB 4 to enter Slayer mostly is for prerequisites

faceroll
2010-02-10, 02:34 PM
All right, I have to ask: Why Psion 6? You get the same max PL you had at Psion 5, and one higher BAB and saves and some more PP and powers known. I mean, the reason you're going into Psion is for powers, so stopping one level after getting a new PL doesn't make much sense to me. About the same reaction I get to someone wanting to stop on an even-numbered wizard level, IOW.

Psion 6 because he needs 4 BAB for slayer. Psion 6 gives him 3 BAB, then he gets 1 BAB from ranger. Slayer is a 9/10s manifesting and full BAB class. He is going gish, which means he puts off higher level powers to gain more martial capability. He could keep taking levels of psion, true, but then he wouldn't be playing a gish.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 04:07 PM
Which are good powers for psygishes?

I am truly stumped concerning them? also some good non-combat powers?

Optimystik
2010-02-10, 05:20 PM
Which are good powers for psygishes?

I am truly stumped concerning them? also some good non-combat powers?

The Ardent Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5871.0), Psychic Warrior Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539114/Psychic_Warrior_Build_Guide_38;_Compendium_Revised ) and even the Psion Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1036.0) should help you be a competent psygish.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 07:18 PM
Regardless of your other choices, take Psicrystal Affinity. These little guys are so good with metamorphosis it's not even funny. And they're surprisingly versatile even without it.

If you really want to boost your action economy, try a The Big Guy Is With Me build. Just a couple of levels after you have access to metamorphosis, enough Improved Psicrystal feats should let you have a buddy that's high enough level to let you charge it up with buffs from afar (level 10 + Psicrystal Affinity + Improved Psicrystal x5 to get Channel Power). It's extremely feat intensive (a couple of flaws should let you do it at level 9), but it's almost excessively effective if you have the right buffs available. After you get Channel Power, every level will let you reformation out a feat to get something awesome. Of course, psychic reformation lets you spec yourself for melee prior to level 10, then respec with all Improved Psicrystal feats to get a grow-your-own-pet kit afterwards. Just don't forget to use CPsi to summon a cerebrilith and use fusion to make your psicrystal even better.

And regardless of what you do, take Linked Power; it's the ultimate feat for psionic buffing (not as good as Divine Metamagic, but almost nothing is as good as Divine Metamagic).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 08:49 PM
@Optimystik: Thanks for the links, I'll check them

@Lycanthromancer: Yeah I planned to get a psycrystal at level 3, but I am sure I read somewhere that Psycrystal gained HD as you went up in psion levels, but I am not sure is that the case or I am crazy?.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-10, 09:18 PM
@Optimystik: Thanks for the links, I'll check them

@Lycanthromancer: Yeah I planned to get a psycrystal at level 3, but I am sure I read somewhere that Psycrystal gained HD as you went up in psion levels, but I am not sure is that the case or I am crazy?.
It's under the Psycrystal's monster entry; HD: As Master.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 09:19 PM
That means that my psycrystal get feats right? so at psion level 7 my psycrystal get 3 feats right?

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 10:18 PM
That means that my psycrystal get feats right? so at psion level 7 my psycrystal get 3 feats right?Correct. Technically it also gains ability score bonuses.

I'd suggest that one of the feats be Flyby Attack.

Nothin' says lovin' like a 12-headed flying hydra who can Spring attack with 12 attacks. Give it Wis 13 and Assume Supernatural Ability and it can strafe with cryo/pyrohydra breath weapons.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 10:20 PM
Correct. Technically it also gains ability score bonuses.

I'd suggest that one of the feats be Flyby Attack.

Nothin' says lovin' like a 12-headed flying hydra who can Spring attack with 12 attacks. Give it Wis 13 and Assume Supernatural Ability and it can strafe with cryo/pyrohydra breath weapons.

I am assuming that you are using the fly ability gained normally to quallify for fly by attack, the question is does it retains the abiluty while metamorphosized?

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 11:08 PM
I am assuming that you are using the fly ability gained normally to quallify for fly by attack, the question is does it retains the abiluty while metamorphosized?It retains all of its psicrystal granted abilities, yes (as they're not racial, but granted by a class; ie, yours). It keeps its Int and natural armor bonuses, the ability to fly, Share Powers, and so on.

It also keeps its special qualities (see metamorphosis' description), which means technically it keeps its hardness, as well.

It keeps its special qualities, but loses its racial traits? Wha?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 11:10 PM
It retains all of its psicrystal granted abilities, yes (as they're not racial, but granted by a class; ie, yours). It keeps its Int and natural armor bonuses, the ability to fly, Share Powers, and so on.

It also keeps its special qualities (see metamorphosis' description), which means technically it keeps its hardness, as well.

It keeps its special qualities, but loses its racial traits? Wha?

:biggrin: oh yeah I'll ride in style.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 11:31 PM
:biggrin: oh yeah I'll ride in style.For this you'll want to turn it into a solid gold throne.

Or a porcelain one, if you're a gnome.

Y'know, either/or.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 11:32 PM
For this you'll want to turn it into a solid gold throne.

Or a porcelain one, if you're a gnome.

Y'know, either/or.

Don't tempt me.....

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 11:35 PM
Don't tempt me.....A Lay-Z-Boy?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-10, 11:37 PM
A Lay-Z-Boy?

:smallconfused: um what?

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 11:50 PM
:smallconfused: um what?Language!Only the most comfortable goddamned chairs in the entire goddamned world. (http://www.automopedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/loveseatcar.jpg)

Only suitable for an acclaimed caster killer of your stature.