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Atanuero
2010-02-09, 11:08 PM
Ok, so I'm DMing a group that's just started learning 4e. I've been reading the DM's Guide and skimming the DM's Guide 2 and I haven't yet found any sort of mechanic for determining CR for NPCs with character classes. I want my level 2 group to fight a solo dwarf barbarian, but I'm having trouble balancing the encounter. On the one hand, barbarians can do crazy damage and the party only has 1 defender, although he's a good one. On the other, they're not great at standing there and taking damage back. And optimally, this would be a medium to long encounter because it's important for the plot.

So if someone can point out any page I've missed that has all of this information or help me balance this encounter or (ideally) tell me how one goes about balancing such an encounter at all, it'd be much appreciated.

Kylarra
2010-02-09, 11:11 PM
For the most part you don't put PC classed characters against PCs. Instead you build them as "monsters" appropriate to their roles. So you'd have some sort of level appropriate skirmisher with a solo template applied.

Swordgleam
2010-02-09, 11:20 PM
DMG page 87, creating NPCs. Lets you create player races with class levels in a way that's quicker and more balanced than making them as PCs.

Gralamin
2010-02-09, 11:21 PM
For the most part you don't put PC classed characters against PCs. Instead you build them as "monsters" appropriate to their roles. So you'd have some sort of level appropriate skirmisher with a solo template applied.

Err no. There are rules for making NPCs (as a standard monster, via NPC creation, or an elite via class template) in the DMG. Making them solo does require a second template, however, or starting with an elite monster.

DSCrankshaw
2010-02-09, 11:22 PM
Actually, there are PC class templates. They're in the DMGs. Barbarian is on p. 131 of the DMG 2. The templates convert the monster from regular to elite (or from elite to solo).

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Kylarra
2010-02-09, 11:37 PM
Well my terminology sucked, and I apologize. I should've stuck to "you don't build NPCs like you build PCs."

Altima
2010-02-09, 11:46 PM
To clarify why it's generally not a good idea to use NPCs with PC classes, NPCs would not be constrained by the limits PCs have to deal with.

For instance, what's to stop an NPC mook from firing off all his daily powers all at once? Now, PCs may do this, but it's usually for a boss fight, and even then, the PC certainly isn't at 100%--perhaps he's used surges, and what have you.

So it would be hugely unfair to the PCs who have to carefully horde their daily spells and surges. And encounters, if they aren't allowed a short rest before the fight.

Atanuero
2010-02-10, 12:07 AM
To clarify why it's generally not a good idea to use NPCs with PC classes, NPCs would not be constrained by the limits PCs have to deal with.

For instance, what's to stop an NPC mook from firing off all his daily powers all at once? Now, PCs may do this, but it's usually for a boss fight, and even then, the PC certainly isn't at 100%--perhaps he's used surges, and what have you.

So it would be hugely unfair to the PCs who have to carefully horde their daily spells and surges. And encounters, if they aren't allowed a short rest before the fight.Um, but it's not as if I'm trying to kill the players. I mean yes, ostensibly I could cheat horribly, but I can do that with any monster and it wouldn't be fun for anybody involved.

Swordgleam
2010-02-10, 12:18 AM
Um, but it's not as if I'm trying to kill the players. I mean yes, ostensibly I could cheat horribly, but I can do that with any monster and it wouldn't be fun for anybody involved.

I think the point Altima was trying to make was that the rules are different for DM-created NPCs and PCs because it makes it easier for you to run NPCs since you don't have to worry about that. You don't need to wonder, "Can I use two dailies in this fight, or would that be more than a PC would use in the same situation?" You just use the abilities the DMG tells you to give the NPC, and it's balanced.

Yakk
2010-02-10, 10:58 AM
PC classes on NPCs are bad for a number of reasons:
1> PCs are designed to be needlessly complicated, to amuse Players while they build the character. Monsters and NPCs are designed to be simple, because DMs have enough to do.

2> In a given combat, PCs are expected to use healing surges, ration their daily powers. NPCs rarely use healing surges, and their stats are the resources they can 'afford' to use in the fight. This means that NPCs start with more HP (to reflect the lack of healing surges), and they have no daily powers.

3> Pacing. NPCs are designed to take the beating of 5 PCs for long enough to be sufficiently interesting, given the size of the encounter. A solo NPC is given a load of HP so that the fight doesn't end on round 2, before anyone can pull out their fun tricks.

---

To build a level 2 solo barbarian, I'd start with an existing dwarf. Say:
Dergan Ironhammer
Downlevel the level 5 brute to a level 4 brute using the monster builder (basically, redo HP, reduce attacks/defences, etc).

Apply the barbarian template from the DMG (possibly using the monster builder). Bias towards multiple-target attack powers.

Next, upgrade the HP to solo level.

Add in a level 1 barbarian encounter power (on top of the existing level 3 encounter power).

Make all encounter powers recharge 56.

Add the words "while bloodied" to the daily power.

Add in "Bloodied Frenzy: All recharge powers recharge when it is first bloodied. He gains a second standard action when bloodied. Can sacrifice a standard action to remove one dazed, stunned or dominated effect as a free action at the start of his turn while bloodied."

Add in "Juggernaut: Makes a save against immobilised and slowed effects at the start of his turn, even if the effect does not normally allow a save."

Add in "Bloody Response: Free reaction, when hit by an opportunity attack. Make a basic melee attack against the attacker".

The last two additions are there to prevent lockdown. The frenzy one upgrades the damage output of the critter when it becomes bloodied. The second encounter power and the recharge on them gives you a baseline damage increase.

That will create the feel of a dwarf barbarian berserker, will last long enough to get a number of attacks off, and generate a nice damage-output spike when it becomes bloodied.

Artanis
2010-02-10, 12:18 PM
Short version of the thread thus far:

PCs and NPCs don't use the same rules. If you want to make an NPC that looks like a PC, go to page 87 of the DMG.