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View Full Version : Beholder Mages and metamagic.



magic9mushroom
2010-02-10, 03:52 AM
Relevant quote from Lords of Madness:


Starting at 1st level, whenever a beholder mage gains the ability to cast a new level of spells, it must sacrifice the use of its eye rays from one of its ten small eyestalks. From then on, that eyestalk casts spells of that level and is referred to as a spell-stalk. At 10th level, all of its eyestalks are spell-stalks.

My question is, does a spell affected by (non-Heighten Spell) metamagic count as its original level or its spell slot level?

faceroll
2010-02-10, 03:56 AM
Relevant quote from Lords of Madness:



My question is, does a spell affected by (non-Heighten Spell) metamagic count as its original level or its spell slot level?


Metamagic Feats

As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Wow. BM is even more broke. Free metamagic. lol. nice.

olentu
2010-02-10, 03:57 AM
Relevant quote from Lords of Madness:



My question is, does a spell affected by (non-Heighten Spell) metamagic count as its original level or its spell slot level?

Original if I am remembering the section stating that for all purposes the spell acts as a spell of its original level or something to that effect.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-10, 04:33 AM
I thought that was how it would work, but I wanted to make sure.

It's not free metamagic, but it does mean you can unload most of your high level slots in 1 round. With Agile Tyrant and Heighten Spell you could blast someone with 4 uber orbs of death and still be able to cast quite a few other high level spells in the same round.

Incidentally, though, this means a Beholder Mage can't use Earth Spell Shadowcraft Mage to imitate 9th level spells, because they have no eyestalk that can cast 10th level spells.

Weezer
2010-02-10, 08:51 AM
Incidentally, though, this means a Beholder Mage can't use Earth Spell Shadowcraft Mage to imitate 9th level spells, because they have no eyestalk that can cast 10th level spells.

I would think that they would also have trouble qualifying as both a Beholder and a Gnome, they seem to be rather mutually exclusive.

kemmotar
2010-02-10, 09:02 AM
I would think that they would also have trouble qualifying as both a Beholder and a Gnome, they seem to be rather mutually exclusive.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/funny-pictures-cat-looks-like-an-owl.jpg

Just replace evolution with wizardry and bribe your DM into allowing you to do it:smallbiggrin:

Would actually be interesting...heh

magic9mushroom
2010-02-10, 09:17 AM
I would think that they would also have trouble qualifying as both a Beholder and a Gnome, they seem to be rather mutually exclusive.

Well, obviously, they use the Pun-Pun trick to gain Stoneborn. :tongue:

faceroll
2010-02-10, 12:43 PM
It's not free metamagic

You can pile a buttload of metamagic onto a spell, and as long as you don't use heighten, you can cast it from an eyestalk of whatever the level of the spell is without taking into account the metamagic adjustments. That seems like free metamagic to me.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-10, 01:57 PM
You can pile a buttload of metamagic onto a spell, and as long as you don't use heighten, you can cast it from an eyestalk of whatever the level of the spell is without taking into account the metamagic adjustments. That seems like free metamagic to me.

The spell still uses a higher-level spell slot, even if the spell stalk doesn't change. It's not free metamagic, it's improved action economy.

Gametime
2010-02-10, 02:44 PM
I think we can all agree that optimizing a Beholder Mage beyond being a Beholder Mage is safely in the realm of "overkill" to begin with.

faceroll
2010-02-10, 02:50 PM
The spell still uses a higher-level spell slot, even if the spell stalk doesn't change.

How is this not free metamagic? You are getting to use higher level effects more often; with heighten spell, up to 10 times a round. Without this interpretation, you get to use those effects very infrequently, not at all, or require levels in incantatrix or whatever. For instance, without metamagic reducers nor this interpretation, you couldn't fire a twinned split repeated maximized empowered enervation from any of your spell stalks, because it's like a 15th level spell. But with this interpretation, you can csat it from one of your spell stalks. With heighten spell, you can cast it from 6 of your spell stalks. Likewise, you can go nuts with persisteting ninth level spells, even though you don't have a 15th level spell stalk.

Kish
2010-02-10, 02:51 PM
Since when do Beholder Mages have fifteenth-level spell slots, unless they're so far into epic that not being able to cast fifteenth-level spells would make them compare poorly to humanoid spellcasters?

Quietus
2010-02-10, 03:06 PM
Since when do Beholder Mages have fifteenth-level spell slots, unless they're so far into epic that not being able to cast fifteenth-level spells would make them compare poorly to humanoid spellcasters?

I think they're trying to suggest that they can do this because of how the eyestalks work.

Let's say you wanted to persist Foresight, for example. 9th level spell. You'd have to cast it from your "9th level eyestalk" generally.

Metamagic rules say that despite taking up a higher level slot, a metamagic'ed spell is still considered a spell of its original level - Heighten Spell being an explicit exception.

So this - if I'm following - means that Persisted Foresight is still considered a 9th level spell. Thus, it can be cast from your 9th level eyestalk.. spellstalk.. thing. Yes, it's as stupid as it sounds, and falls into the same "What the hell are you smoking" area of theoretical optimization as twice-cast PaO to "be" a Beholder Mage in the first place.

Kish
2010-02-10, 03:09 PM
I think they're trying to suggest that they can do this because of how the eyestalks work.
Yes, I get that. The thing is, as Nate the Snake pointed out, the suggestion is wrong. Beholder mages still have a finite number of spell slots just like sorcerers. They can no more use their ninth-level eyestalk to cast a fifteenth-level spell they don't have a slot for than a non-epic dwarf sorcerer can cast a fifteenth-level spell. A well-into-epic-level beholder mage who has a fifteenth-level slot can cast a metamagiced fifteenth-level spell from the eyestalk that would cast the spell if it wasn't metamagiced, the same way a well-into-epic-level dwarf sorcerer can cast a metamagiced fifteenth-level spell.

faceroll
2010-02-10, 03:12 PM
Yes, I get that. The thing is, as Nate the Snake pointed out, the suggestion is wrong. Beholder mages still have a finite number of spell slots just like sorcerers. They can no more use their ninth-level eyestalk to cast a fifteenth-level spell they don't have a slot for than a non-epic dwarf sorcerer can cast a fifteenth-level spell.

Ah, true. I just went and read the Beholder Mage stat block, and it seems that 9th level spells can't be persisted.

But check out the wording:

"A beholder mage of high level typically knows a huge number of spells and can call upon any one of them at any time, providing it has a spell slot open of the appropriate spell level."

So could it use a 1st level spell stalk to cast a persisted prot from evil?

Nate the Snake
2010-02-10, 03:31 PM
So could it use a 1st level spell stalk to cast a persisted prot from evil?

Yes, and the spell would use a 7th level spell slot as normal for a persistent protection from evil.


I think we can all agree that optimizing a Beholder Mage beyond being a Beholder Mage is safely in the realm of "overkill" to begin with.

Sig-yoinked. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Finally caught up with the ninjas.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-10, 04:23 PM
As a fellow BM user, let me say that yes BM's are borked. But the interpretation put forth here is too literal. Its this sort of thing that makes me repeat how RAW is too silly to hold on to - it doesn't exist.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 12:20 AM
So could it use a 1st level spell stalk to cast a persisted prot from evil?

Yes, it could, but it would use a 7th level spell slot as normal. The benefit is that it hasn't used its 7th level spell for the round and can hence cast FoD or Maximised Orb of Fire or what have you.


As a fellow BM user, let me say that yes BM's are borked. But the interpretation put forth here is too literal. Its this sort of thing that makes me repeat how RAW is too silly to hold on to - it doesn't exist.

Eh, it doesn't give them more spell slots, just the ability to nova better. Which doesn't actually help all that much, given some of the dirty tricks BMs can do already (eg Greater Teleporting in, firing off all its spells for the round, and Teleporting back out, repeating until everyone's dead)

faceroll
2010-02-11, 01:56 AM
Yes, it could, but it would use a 7th level spell slot as normal. The benefit is that it hasn't used its 7th level spell for the round and can hence cast FoD or Maximised Orb of Fire or what have you.


Yes, and the spell would use a 7th level spell slot as normal for a persistent protection from evil.

Ok, I get it now.

megabyter5
2010-02-11, 08:06 AM
I would think that they would also have trouble qualifying as both a Beholder and a Gnome, they seem to be rather mutually exclusive.

This brought me much laughter.