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View Full Version : [3.5] Use Magic Device and Scrolls



Xan_Kriegor
2010-02-10, 02:46 PM
For ease of access, the relevant links are here: Scrolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) and UMD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Usemagicdevice.htm)

I have a caster (Beguiler 5) with some ranks in UMD ('cause it's awesome and stuff :smalltongue:), and I'm not entirely sure how to use it. The scroll I'd probably try to UMD, for the record, is Limited Wish. Obviously I don't meet the CL requirement, nor do I have Limited Wish on my spell list (hence the using UMD). The part I'm iffy on stems from this quote:
Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.Does this mean that if I make the skill check, then I'm all clear to cast the spell or do I still need to make the CL check as per it not being 13+?

Also, any advice on how to boost UMD would be appreciated (need a 33 to make it work :smalleek:).

DragoonWraith
2010-02-10, 02:49 PM
I cannot think of any good reason why a level 5 character should ever be allowed to cast a 6th level spell. Especially Limited Wish.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-10, 02:59 PM
Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll.Assuming the Limited Wish is written by caster level 14, that'd be a DC 34 UMD check.


To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15.You also need to emulate INT 17 (CHA 17 if it's a Sorcerer spell), so unless you already have it, that'd be a separate DC 32 UMD check.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-10, 03:02 PM
For ease of access, the relevant links are here: Scrolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) and UMD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Usemagicdevice.htm)

I have a caster (Beguiler 5) with some ranks in UMD ('cause it's awesome and stuff :smalltongue:), and I'm not entirely sure how to use it. The scroll I'd probably try to UMD, for the record, is Limited Wish. Obviously I don't meet the CL requirement, nor do I have Limited Wish on my spell list (hence the using UMD). The part I'm iffy on stems from this quote: Does this mean that if I make the skill check, then I'm all clear to cast the spell or do I still need to make the CL check as per it not being 13+?

Also, any advice on how to boost UMD would be appreciated (need a 33 to make it work :smalleek:).

Snark aside (how did you get the scroll?)
Yes, you can use it, but...

You might still need Caster check since your caster level is too low. But


In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability.

So you need Int/Cha score of 17 or make UMD check.

Don't worry though: DC 5 Wisdom check for negating mishaps.

ericgrau
2010-02-10, 03:10 PM
I cannot think of any good reason why a level 5 character should ever be allowed to cast a 6th level spell. Especially Limited Wish.

Because it's a 2275 gp scroll and his total expected wealth is 13,000 gp. It can only be used once, and then only with a very difficult check. It's probably DC 33 (20+13) since scrolls are usually made at the lowest possible caster level.

Btw, if you fail the UMD check by 10 or more or you lose the scroll, possibly with a mishap. So you want to be able to reliably make DC 24 checks, which is ideally a +23 modifier in your UMD skill or at least close to that. And any combat use of limited wish is right out unless you can get your UMD modifier a bit higher than that.

ryzouken
2010-02-10, 03:11 PM
generic bonii to UMD:
Skill Focus +3
Synergy +2 (decipher script for scrolls)
Magical Aptitude +2
masterwork tool +2
enhancement bonus item +X (bonus squared times 100; you can likely afford a +5)

lv 5 char with full ranks and 20 cha has a +13 normal, stack on the enhancement item, synergy, skill focus, and you've got a +23 and you burnt 2500 gp and a feat to do it. For 7th level spells.

Then if you spent a feat on Magic Device Attunement, you could attune to it and not have to make subsequent UMD checks till the next day.

Does your party have access to someone who can cast heroism or a bard? If so, you can crank out a few more points.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-10, 03:11 PM
Also, any advice on how to boost UMD would be appreciated (need a 33 to make it work :smalleek:).Wait one more level (+1 rank in skill), take Skill Focus feat (+3), learn the Eagle's Splendor spell (+2), make sure you have 5 ranks in Decipher script (+2 synergy) and Spellcraft (+2 synergy).

Assuming you maxed out the UMD skill and your beginning charisma was 16, that's already +9 (ranks) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 5 (charisma) +4 synergy = 21. Need a 13 or higher, and only needs 3 or higher to avoid a mishap.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-10, 03:14 PM
Buy a +UMD item: DMG tells price.
Or just buy Circle of Persuasion: although that adds to all Cha based checks. So get both!

Beorn080
2010-02-10, 03:20 PM
From what I can see, when using UMD, the CL part of the CL check is replaced by your UMD skill. However, in that circumstance, I think you would be able to use either your normal CL, or your UMD ranks, whichever are higher, when rolling the CL check to use a spell above your current CL.

ericgrau
2010-02-10, 03:23 PM
generic bonii to UMD:
Skill Focus +3
Synergy +2 (decipher script for scrolls)
Magical Aptitude +2
masterwork tool +2
enhancement bonus item +X (bonus squared times 100; you can likely afford a +5)

lv 5 char with full ranks and 20 cha has a +13 normal, stack on the enhancement item, synergy, skill focus, and you've got a +23 and you burnt 2500 gp and a feat to do it. For 7th level spells.

Then if you spent a feat on Magic Device Attunement, you could attune to it and not have to make subsequent UMD checks till the next day.

Does your party have access to someone who can cast heroism or a bard? If so, you can crank out a few more points.

Gonna be a while until he gets 2 more feats. Random skill boosting items are custom and subject to DM approval. As they are a known source of abuse, he should be skeptical. A circlet of persuasion is 4500 gp just so he can blow money on a few scrolls he can barely afford especially since 4500 gp is probably more than he has. And what is this "masterwork tool" you speak of. Go ask a shop keeper for one and see if he does anything but scratch his head.

Practically speaking he can get 3 + level + cha mod + 4 (synergy from decipher script and spellcraft). Assuming an 18 cha that's +16. If it's really worth it he might get skill focus for +19, but really it isn't. He can't afford so many high level scrolls. Better to use the +16 for lots of low level utility scrolls. After all anything caster level 5 and below won't blow up, and they're affordable. If he sticks to utility things, which scrolls are best for anyway, he'll have plenty of time to keep retrying his rolls.

Xan_Kriegor
2010-02-10, 03:47 PM
Thanks for the help guys! I forgot about trying to get a masterwork item for a cheap +2 bonus. And for the record, the reason I'd be using a scroll of Limited Wish would be a super-cheap way of getting revives. It can emulate any 5th level (or lower spell), right? So, emulate Revivify from SpC and rezzes are now almost 4k apiece, instead of 25k. Alternatively (and also much more expensively) use a scroll of Wish so you can emulate Reaching Last Breath (Wish only emulates 6th or below, applying Reach to Revivify bumps it up to 7th but Last Breath is level 4 IIRC. Also, only useful if you need the extra 30 ft. of range.)

Granted, the entire thing is pretty cheap, but rezzes are darned expensive at level 5, not including level loss. :smalltongue:

And an aside: as a Beguiler (Int-based caster), getting the 17 Int required shouldn't be that hard. :smalltongue:

@ericgrau: Scrolls of Limited Wish cost 3,775 gp because LW has a 300 XP cost, so 2,275 (base for level 7 scroll) + 5*300 (5gp per XP) = 3,775 gp. Also, do I not lose the scroll if I fail the check by 1-9 or do I still lose it but no chance of mishaps?

@Lin Bayaseda: Assuming it's a Wizard-scribed scroll, the spell is level 7 so CL is minimum of 13, which I'm aiming for.

ericgrau
2010-02-10, 03:54 PM
Ah the scroll is even more expensive than I thought? All the more reason why it isn't broken to be able to use that scroll.

Yeah, if you fail by 1-9 you don't lose the scroll. You just waste your turn. It's in the UMD rules, and it's the main reason why the high DCs don't make UMD a waste of skill points. Just try again. That may be a problem for revivify though. Doesn't it have a time limit of 1 round after they guy drops?

Generally I'd recommend against using scrolls during combat, as retrying wastes rounds. Unless you have a super high UMD modifier and it's a low level scroll, but then why would you want to use a weak scroll for anything but utility? It's a matter of action economy; a turn not spent doing the best you can do greatly reduces your effectiveness in combat.

vanyell
2010-02-10, 03:56 PM
Maybe it's just me, but would it not be cheaper and easier to use a scroll of revifviy?

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-10, 03:57 PM
@Lin Bayaseda: Assuming it's a Wizard-scribed scroll, the spell is level 7 so CL is minimum of 13, which I'm aiming for.Ok, so DC 33. And you need DC 23 to avoid a mishap. In that case, anything beyond +21 is overkill, as a natural '1' always fails.

Add Level+3, add Charisma bonus, +2 for Eagle's Splendor, +4 for Synergies, +2 for Aid another (the person aiding you only needs to beat DC 10), +2 for a Bard Song to Inspire Competence (I hear those level 3 bards work cheap...), maybe +2 for Masterwork Item (although I'm not quite sure what masterwork tool can make you recite scrolls better, but that's between you and your DM), and you may not even need to expend any feats.

vanyell
2010-02-10, 03:58 PM
nat 1s don't autofail on skill checks

Starbuck_II
2010-02-10, 03:58 PM
Ok, so DC 33. And you need DC 23 to avoid a mishap. In that case, anything beyond +21 is overkill, as a natural '1' always fails.


Nat 1's only fail for attack rolls/saves. Unless you have houserules, but nothing we can do about DMs who want fumbles.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-10, 04:00 PM
Oh, right. Well then, +22 avoids mishaps automatically. not right.

ericgrau
2010-02-10, 04:00 PM
nat 1s don't autofail on skill checks

EDIT: Nevermind I misread the rule. See below.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-10, 04:02 PM
Except use magic device, unfortunately. And you lose the scroll. I almost forgot that rule until this reminded me.

No Mishaps occur: you just fail and must wait 24 hours.

ericgrau
2010-02-10, 04:05 PM
Yeah I just reread the rule. Oops. But you don't autofail on a 1. It's only if you fail and roll a 1, you need to wait 24 hours.

lsfreak
2010-02-10, 04:09 PM
Yea, I'm confused here. Why not get a scroll of revivify and save yourself around 3000pg?

Also: Activating a scroll requires the check, and 'fumbles' ONLY on a Natural 1 (where you are unable to try again for 24 hours). The failing by 10 or more applies only to Activating Blindly, which you won't (or shouldn't) be doing.

Superglucose
2010-02-10, 04:09 PM
Ok, so DC 33. And you need DC 23 to avoid a mishap. In that case, anything beyond +21 is overkill, as a natural '1' always fails.
Wrong. Even if a natural 1 always failed (which it doesn't for skill checks) 1+21 = 22 = mishap. Anything beyond a +22 is "overkill" in the sense that you won't waste the scroll no matter what you roll, but you really want a +32 to the check because failing to do anything in a turn sucks.

ericgrau
2010-02-10, 04:11 PM
Yea, I'm confused here. Why not get a scroll of revivify and save yourself around 3000pg?

Also: Activating a scroll requires the check, and 'fumbles' ONLY on a Natural 1 (where you are unable to try again for 24 hours). The failing by 10 or more applies only to Activating Blindly, which you won't (or shouldn't) be doing.

Because he already has a scroll of limited wish, naturally. And I think revivify is only 1 possible option. One which may not actual work without a great UMD check anyway. Or he can just keep trying every time a party member dies until he finally manages to rez one. If not, he still has the scroll for the next death or a completely different application of limited wish.

On the activating blindly mishaps, what do you make of "This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself." Clearly this 2nd mishap is different from activating blindly, but how is it even possible?

EDIT: I'm thinking I was wrong about him not needing to make a caster level check to use the scroll. "As if it were on his class list" is similar wording to what's used for wands. And in that context "on his class list" can mean that you're still too low of a level to cast the spell normally. For wands that doesn't matter and you can use them without fail but for scrolls that means it's time for a caster level check. And these can have a mishap if you fail by 5 or more.

lsfreak
2010-02-10, 04:14 PM
If he already has the scroll, yes, but it seemed to me like there was the possibility of picking up several in order to keep resurrection costs down.

The other thing about Revivify itself will be that the check will be easier, and therefore less likely to fail. And you could get that scroll of reach revivify, without the horrendous cost of a scroll of wish.

EDIT: I believe that would refer to activating a scroll blindly, where you have a chance of both mishaps. However, you should never activate a scroll blindly, instead making a DC25 + spell level check to identify the scroll well beforehand (like while you're buying it).

ericgrau
2010-02-10, 04:20 PM
Then why does it say "normally". Doesn't that imply that you always or often have a chance of mishap during other activation methods? See also my best guess in the edit.

ryzouken
2010-02-10, 06:22 PM
Gonna be a while until he gets 2 more feats. Random skill boosting items are custom and subject to DM approval. As they are a known source of abuse, he should be skeptical. A circlet of persuasion is 4500 gp just so he can blow money on a few scrolls he can barely afford especially since 4500 gp is probably more than he has. And what is this "masterwork tool" you speak of. Go ask a shop keeper for one and see if he does anything but scratch his head.

Practically speaking he can get 3 + level + cha mod + 4 (synergy from decipher script and spellcraft). Assuming an 18 cha that's +16. If it's really worth it he might get skill focus for +19, but really it isn't. He can't afford so many high level scrolls. Better to use the +16 for lots of low level utility scrolls. After all anything caster level 5 and below won't blow up, and they're affordable. If he sticks to utility things, which scrolls are best for anyway, he'll have plenty of time to keep retrying his rolls.

A few posts went by, but since you asked the question:
Tool, Masterwork: 3.5 PhB page 130 right hand column, bottom entry, expands to page 131.
For the purposes of UMD, a likely tool could be a manual on standard activation methods, a flip book of common magic runes, or some random wizard author's thesis on the usage of arcane writings. Apply whatever flavor you'd like, the mechanics are there.

Granted, custom skill bonus items are subject to DM approval, but realistically I've not seen a DM have a problem with a modest, accurately priced and appropriately themed custom item. It may have the additional cost of needing time to be crafted and the merchant may issue a higher price on custom orders, but in a moderate to high magic world, it's not unheard of.

Finally, Skill Focus: UMD is not a waste of a feat as it makes UMD more reliable when activating more and more powerful items. It becomes more important if, as inferred previously, custom skill boost items are unavailable for whatever reason. Retraining is always an option, both for obtaining and removing feats.

But yes, limited wish is a bad scroll to use on a regular basis. If you've got one, use it (or sell it!), but certainly you'd be better off buying other scrolls.

Xan_Kriegor
2010-02-10, 08:00 PM
*facepalm* Yes, it would be a lot cheaper to just buy a scroll of Revivify than it would be to buy a scroll of Limited Wish. About 1650 gp cheaper (Revivify scroll costs 2,125 gp), meaning I could buy quite a few more of those than Limited Wishes. As a side note, scrolls of Last Breath only cost 1,200 gold.

Next time I'll check my train of thought to see if there's a more reasonable option. :smallfurious:

So, next question: if I had a scroll of Revivify, would I have to make multiple 'Use a Scroll' UMD checks or just one? Also, does the quote in the OP mean that I can't emulate Divine casting, or can I?

Glimbur
2010-02-10, 08:13 PM
You'll have to make a UMD check to pretend to have a divine caster level. You might have to make a second one to pretend to have enough wisdom to cast a fifth level spell.

Of course you can use UMD to cast a spell from a scroll without any related caster levels, or else why would rogues get UMD?

Xan_Kriegor
2010-02-10, 08:30 PM
So, to emulate a divine caster level would I just use an 'Emulate a Class Feature' check, and emulate the Cleric's spellcasting, essentially making it a DC 21 check (text says level = result - 20, and I just need level 1)?

So, DC 21 check (emulate Cleric spellcasting) and possibly a DC 30 check (emulate 15 Wis)? I think it might be easier to just make a DC 29 check (Use a Scroll, 20 + 9 from level 5 spell).

elonin
2010-02-10, 08:59 PM
You can't emulate a caster level except for "having a spell on your list" in order to use an item. For a scroll you'd have to decipher it yourself UMD check or an easier spell craft check. You'd then need to make a use scroll roll dc 15+caster level or 16 for a level one spell. Don't forget about minimum caster level.

ryzouken
2010-02-10, 09:01 PM
You need class feature of level equivalent to minimum caster level to cast the spell, thus the 20+CL dc for activating the scroll. If you don't have an ability score of 10+ spell level in the appropriate score, it requires a second, separate check.

so for a scroll of revivify (divine spell level 5 cl 9 IIRC) you need two checks, one dc 29 (for caster level) and one dc 30 (for ability score) if you have a 15 wisdom, you just need one check, at dc 29