Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.

[Cheesegear]

The last thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)reached 50 Pages. So, without further ado;

Welcome to Tactics Thread V! And, to kick things off...


Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;
Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.

Guide to Armies
Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):
Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7733811&postcount=990)

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
Black Templars: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8100822&postcount=940) Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: Slightly focused on close combat. With some unique rules and units. ***
Blood Angels: Focused on close combat so much that it may lead to a detriment to their shooting capabilities. Some unique rules. Expensive (in points) squads and Assault Squads as troops. ** or ***

If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):


Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
*** or **** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
*** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):
If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

Eldar:
Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Dark Eldar (DE):
Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.

Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff :smallwink:). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.

Necrons:
Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese! (http://tsoalr.com/?p=361)
Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
(Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
* if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
**** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.

Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **

Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs): *

Still to come;
Chaos Daemons, Imperial Guard, Daemon and Witch Hunters and Orks.
All these armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.
And Tau (see below).

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).
I do not (currently) have the Tau Codex and have extremely limited experience against them. Someone should PM me a complete write-up.

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

We now return you to your scheduled program of in the Grim Darkness of the Future.

Where we left off;
Cheesegear was entering a gaming challenge of creating a 2500 point army in four to five months. Primarily considering Daemonhunters (foolishly with pure Grey Knights), Necrons, Tyranids or Chaos Daemons.
Kinslayer was posting his Imperial Guard Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7861488&postcount=1481).
Archetype- was about to post his army.
WitchHunters and Grey Knights may or may not be facing some harsh times in the future.

[Forrestfire]

First! ...:smallredface:

Hey, can anybody critique my list for a 1000-point wolfwing army?


HQ:
Logan Grimnar

Troops:
5 Wolf Guard Terminators
-1 w/ storm bolter, wolf claw, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ twin wolf claws
-1 w/ combi-flamer, power weapon
-1 w/ power fist, storm bolter

4 Wolf Guard Terminators
-1 w/ storm bolter, power weapon, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ frost blades, storm bolters
-1 w/ power fist, storm bolter
-Drop Pod

Heavy Support
Land Raider Crusader

Total = 1000

[Keris]

I doubt they will get rid of them, after all they haven't gotten rid of an army since the squats and they have kept DE around (and best keep them around) since 3rd edition.
DH and WH are 3rd edition as well, you know.

Is the forum's clock off? My computer, watch, and cell phone all seem to say it's ten before the hour, yet I apparently posted at twenty before. :smallconfused:
Yes. The forum clock runs slightly slow, and is corrected every once in a while. At the moment, it's 10~11 minutes off.

WitchHunters and Grey Knights may or may not be facing some harsh times in the future.
According to my local GW, it's most likely a sign of a new codex coming in 6 months or so. The same thing apparently happened to 'nids, so it may well be looking up for the =][=. However, they didn't know anything for sure, and the guy I spoke with couldn't recall how long it was between the 'nid 'dex disappearing and the new one being announced.

[Cheesegear]

Hey, can anybody critique my list for a 1000-point wolfwing list?

Yes.


Logan Grimnar

...I guess you kind of have to. Still, he's very good. If not a tad expensive for 1000 points.


5 Wolf Guard Terminators
-1 w/ storm bolter, wolf claw, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ twin wolf claws
-1 w/ combi-flamer, power weapon
-1 w/ power fist, storm bolter

4 Wolf Guard Terminators
-1 w/ storm bolter, power weapon, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ frost blades, storm bolters
-1 w/ power fist, storm bolter
-Drop Pod

Problem is, you're going to need a few more Troops than that. In 1000 points, you should be looking at 3/4 Troops units. And this unit has 2 units. All up. I forsee great problems in this army's future.
I'd probably trade the Cyclones for Assault Cannons.


Land Raider Crusader

Yep. Again. Spending 250 points for a single model in 1000 points is getting a bit expensive. And the Crusader doesn't even sport Lascannons. Which you may need if you're using the Cyclones as Frag Missiles - which you kind of should.

Yeah, main problem is not enough units. :smallfrown:


According to my local GW, it's most likely a sign of a new codex coming in 6 months or so. The same thing apparently happened to 'nids, so it may well be looking up for the =][=.


Originally posted by Cheesegear
Best guesses put Codex: Inquistion (rumours also say that 'Codex: Grey Knights' will be a completely different book) at November 2010. At the earliest. But we have been fooled by rumours before.
As WHFB 8th Ed. is in the works after Blood Angels, and following that, new Empire and whatever the other army is in the new starter box.
And rumour has it that Necrons, Dark Angels or Dark Eldar are after that. Black Templars appear to be stooged.

Usually when things are 'taken away', GW can usually confirm that a new army is about to happen. For example, GW knew that Tyranids were being taken away to make way for a new army. They knew why 'Beasts of Chaos' wasn't getting any more stock. They know why they can't order new Basalisks or Venerable Dreadnoughts.
...They can't confirm that Codex: Inquistion (or similar) is happening any time soon. Therefore, it probably isn't.

[crazedloon]

Kinslayer here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7861874&postcount=1482) was my review of your list

and if they do reprint DH and WH before DE that would be rather troublesome :smalltongue: but than that may be my preference

[One Step Two]

From a marketing point of view, with a re-release imminent, it wouldn't be that bad an idea to halt all distribution of the older product, causing a minor sales frenzy on the item if people think they are going to be replaced for those who enjoy the older models before they release new ones. But it could be my vain hope and optimism that we may be seeing plastic GK and SoB (which would be fantastic).

Also, I did a little number crunching for my Eldar list, and came up with something different.


Avatar - 155

7 Striking Scorpions + Exarch w/ Powerclaw, Infriltrate and move through cover - 180

8 Dire Avengers + Autarch w/ Dual Shruiken Catapults, Bladestorm - 140

5 Eldar Pathfinders - 120

6 Guardian Jetbikes w/ 2x Shriken Cannons - 152


All told it gives me a little more flexibility in deployment, using the Pathfinders as I wanted before to hold remote objectives, the Dire Avengers as mid-field objective grabbers, the Scorpions can clean out objectives in the enemy side of the board aslong as they aren't subject to too much hate, and the Avatar to soak up enemy hate. But in the format I am lacking anti-tank very much save the Avatar himself, and if my opponent is canny enough to stymie him with a big unit in close combat, he'll become somewhat lack-lustre. Any opinions?

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallbiggrin: Sweeet. Love the new thread title, Cheesegear. I personally take the pulling of Witchhunters stuff as a sign of a new codex coming out. Hopefully I can be patient long enough to get some sweet new plastic ladies. :smalltongue: Here's to hoping.

If they pull us, though.. Well, I'm not letting my local DE player complain anymore. :smallannoyed:

Speaking of DE, I hear all their models are done, apparently. :smallconfused: Interesting. I hope they're doing work on the =I= as well.

Sidenote: Just finished my Immolator! Yay! :smallbiggrin:

[Archetype-]

Yes. The forum clock runs slightly slow, and is corrected every once in a while. At the moment, it's 10~11 minutes off.

Ah, thank you. Somehow I never noticed that. It's like how I asked someone at Wal-Mart where the gloves are when they're five feet to my right and in plain view.

Now, the main attraction:


Archetype- was about to post his army.

Very true. I have a not-so-unique conundrum. Three lists (all open to reasonable alteration, of course), and only enough resources for one. I'm not fond of reacting and/or stationary gaming, so I'm trying to stay as mobile as I can. If I can have some variety so it's not quite so dull, all the better. I'm aiming for a 1500 point all-rounder for casual play (most everyone around here is quite casual).

The first one here is my hybrid mech/gunline:

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Company Commander w/power sword
Cost: 60 points

This one is the most open to change, as all it has is a guy with a shiny metal stick. It's simply there to give orders to the Infantry Platoons, notably the heavy weapon squads. Best alteration I can come up with is swamping for dual sniper rifles or grenade launchers, but there's definitely not a lack of the latter.


Troops

Infantry Platoon Alpha

Platoon Command Squad
-1 flamer
Cost: 40 points

Again, it's there to issue orders. Of course, it's mostly going to be FRFSRF until late game (then it'll be Move! For objective-snagging).

1st Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

2nd Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

3rd Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

The job of the grunts is to provide fire support against anything that's not a heavy tank or MC. Late game, they're obviously going to scoot for objectives.

1st Heavy Weapon Squad
-3 missile launchers
Cost: 90 points

These are the anchors of the firebase. Transports, monstrous creatures, and lightly-armored hordes are what they'll be aiming at (hopefully with the aid of Bring It Down!).

Platoon Cost: 320 points

Infantry Platoon Bravo

<snip>

Platoon Bravo is exactly the same as Platoon Alpha. Congratulations, I've given you a reason to be lazy.

1st Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

2nd Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

Land Raiders beware! These veterans are coming for you with their trio of fusion-HA!


Fast Attack

Bane Wolf
-hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Some quick anti-MEQ with some fire-spewing goodness.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Vanquisher
-hull lascannon
-camo netting
Cost: 190 points

So I can start hitting the big, scary stuff early. Not quite so accurate, but when deployed in cover it's freakishly resilient.

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-sponson heavy bolters
Cost: 170 points

You have a toughness value? Do you have power armor or worse? Then this thing's guns have your name written all over it! Happy Deathday!

Total Cost: 1500 points

Some good variety here, and I think the parts can work rather well together. However, it's the least mobile of the three lists I've drawn up. This one is my least favorite because of that lack of mobility.

The next two are fully mechanized, so I'll get the dull-looking one out of the way first.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Company Commander w/plasma pistol
-3 plasma guns
-carapace armor
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 180 points

Since it's hard (read: not legal) to give orders to a unit inside a transport, I've opted to increase their killing potential with a truckload of plasma. Thanks to the carapace, my troopers are more likely to survive an overheat. Add in a Chimera and they're fairly mobile.


Troops

1st Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera
Cost: 155 points

The tri-melta Vet squad in a Chimera. Delivering accurate meltagun fire to enemy tanks since 2009!

2nd-4th Veteran Squad
<snip>

Yeah, the other three Vet squads are the same. Nothing special.

Fast Attack

Hellhound
-hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Hellhound
-hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Something won't stop lurking in cover? Those Pathfinders/Ratlings/Scouts not getting the hell out of those ruins? Send in the Hellhounds to burn their butts out of there! You here me, cowards? GET YOUR FLAMING BUTTS OUT OF MY RUIN!

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher
-hull lascannon
-sponson plasma cannons
Cost: 220 points

Leman Russ Demolisher
-hull lascannon
-sponson plasma cannons
Cost: 220 points

The least subtle units in the whole list, and with IG that's saying something. They just basically obliterate anything their guns can reach, Monoliths included (never a 'Cron player field more than one, though...).

Total Cost: 1500 points

No real subtlety to the list here. Just spam, spam, and spam. It's mobile, but pretty dull to look at.

And now, some mech for variety's sake.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Company Commander w/plasma pistol
-3 Veterans w/plasma gun
-1 Veteran w/medi-pack
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 190 points

It's like the one in the previous list, but I've ditched the carapace for Feel No Pain. I like Feel No Pain, especially when it allows my men to survive a .75 caliber explosive round to the torso. For a bit.

Troops

1st Veteran Squad
-3x meltagun
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

Yep, tri-melta Vets in a tank. Whoopee.

2nd-4th Veteran Squad
<snip>

Yep, the others are exactly the same.


Fast Attack

Hellhound
-Hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Why are you still not out of my ruin, campers? DO YOU LIKE BEING MY ROAST?


Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher
-Hull lascannon
-Sponson plasma cannons
Cost: 220 points

Yep, a Demolisher. General close-to-mid range fire support. Can you tell this is my favorite variant?

Leman Russ Battle Tank
Cost: 150 points

Added for the sake of adding another Russ to shoot at. Also, battle cannons are fun.

Leman Russ Vanquisher
-Hull lascannon
-Camo netting
Cost: 190 points

'Cause I feel I “need” to start hitting the armor on turn one while camping in a ruin or forest.


Total Cost: 1500 points

Obviously more variety than the second list's “Spamalot”, but still quite mobile. It's the one I'm leaning towards, but like the other two it's still open to reasonable adaptation (within my limited funding).

For models, I have enough lasguns and grenade launchers to go any route (thanks to a friend of mine and his trade of my unused Dark Elves for some old IG models). I already have two Demolishers, three Chimeras, and a Hellhound. I only have four heavy weapons teams (two MLs and two ACs), and I can only really buy them in groups of four. I can easily go with just about any Commander set-up thanks to the Cadian Command box, even though the Commander's already assembled (gives me an excuse to use my Exact-o knife). I would really like to be both mobile and varied in composition, and would prefer it if I could steer clear of the artillery tanks like the Bassie.

Thanks in advance! Now I'm off to make me some chicken a la Dimmu Borgir.

-Archetype

[Ninja Chocobo]

1500 points of Orks!

HQ: 235 points
Warboss: 150 points.
-Power Klaw
-Attack Squig
-Warbike
-Cybork Body

Weirdboy: 85 points.
-Warp'ead

Troop: 1038 points
30x Shoota Boyz: 235 points
-3x Big Shoota
-Nob
-Power Klaw
-Bosspole

30x Gretchin: 135 points
-3x Runtherd
-3x Grot-Prod

10x Nobz: 668 points
-Warbikes
-Cyborks
-Stikkbombs
-Painboy with Grot Orderly
-Stock
-Stock with Ammo Runt
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Waaagh! Banner
-Power Klaw
-Power Klaw, Bosspole
-Power Klaw, Kombi-Skorcha
-Big Choppa
-Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha

Elites: 225 points
15x Lootas: 225 points


Tactics:
Weirdboy runs with the Shootas for psyker support. The boyz are boyz, not much to say there.

Gretchin are there to camp on objectives in cover in that sort of mission, and for monstrous creature hunting in annihilation. Poisoned weapons are always good.

Lootas are anti-light vehicle and infantry.

Warboss and Nobz are all-purpose krumping. Tanks get four PKs to the rear, infantry gets 33 TL Dakkagun shots.

The idea with this list is to minimise KPs while maximising the longevity of my troops. Gretchin may totally suck, but 33 ablative wounds with a 4+ save will take some time to get through.

[Arcanoi]

1500 points of Orks!

HQ: 235 points
Warboss: 150 points.
-Power Klaw
-Attack Squig
-Warbike
-Cybork Body

Weirdboy: 85 points.
-Warp'ead

Troop: 1038 points
30x Shoota Boyz: 235 points
-3x Big Shoota
-Nob
-Power Klaw
-Bosspole

30x Gretchin: 135 points
-3x Runtherd
-3x Grot-Prod

10x Nobz: 668 points
-Warbikes
-Cyborks
-Stikkbombs
-Painboy with Grot Orderly
-Stock
-Stock with Ammo Runt
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Waaagh! Banner
-Power Klaw
-Power Klaw, Bosspole
-Power Klaw, Kombi-Skorcha
-Big Choppa
-Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha

Elites: 225 points
15x Lootas: 225 points


Tactics:
Weirdboy runs with the Shootas for psyker support. The boyz are boyz, not much to say there.

Gretchin are there to camp on objectives in cover in that sort of mission, and for monstrous creature hunting in annihilation. Poisoned weapons are always good.

Lootas are anti-light vehicle and infantry.

Warboss and Nobz are all-purpose krumping. Tanks get four PKs to the rear, infantry gets 33 TL Dakkagun shots.

The idea with this list is to minimise KPs while maximising the longevity of my troops. Gretchin may totally suck, but 33 ablative wounds with a 4+ save will take some time to get through.


I would personally split your Nobs and Lootas into two squads. Beyond that... you have a disappointing amount of... Orks for 1500 points.

[Thatguyoverther]

The first one here is my hybrid mech/gunline:

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Company Commander w/power sword
Cost: 60 points

This one is the most open to change, as all it has is a guy with a shiny metal stick. It's simply there to give orders to the Infantry Platoons, notably the heavy weapon squads. Best alteration I can come up with is swamping for dual sniper rifles or grenade launchers, but there's definitely not a lack of the latter.


Troops

Infantry Platoon Alpha

Platoon Command Squad
-1 flamer
Cost: 40 points

Again, it's there to issue orders. Of course, it's mostly going to be FRFSRF until late game (then it'll be Move! For objective-snagging).

1st Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

2nd Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

3rd Infantry Squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon
Cost: 65 points

The job of the grunts is to provide fire support against anything that's not a heavy tank or MC. Late game, they're obviously going to scoot for objectives.

1st Heavy Weapon Squad
-3 missile launchers
Cost: 90 points

These are the anchors of the firebase. Transports, monstrous creatures, and lightly-armored hordes are what they'll be aiming at (hopefully with the aid of Bring It Down!).

Platoon Cost: 320 points

Infantry Platoon Bravo

<snip>

Platoon Bravo is exactly the same as Platoon Alpha. Congratulations, I've given you a reason to be lazy.

1st Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

2nd Veteran Squad
-3 meltaguns
-Chimera w/hull heavy flamer
Cost: 155 points

Land Raiders beware! These veterans are coming for you with their trio of fusion-HA!


Fast Attack

Bane Wolf
-hull heavy flamer
Cost: 130 points

Some quick anti-MEQ with some fire-spewing goodness.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Vanquisher
-hull lascannon
-camo netting
Cost: 190 points

So I can start hitting the big, scary stuff early. Not quite so accurate, but when deployed in cover it's freakishly resilient.

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-sponson heavy bolters
Cost: 170 points

You have a toughness value? Do you have power armor or worse? Then this thing's guns have your name written all over it! Happy Deathday!

Total Cost: 1500 points

Some good variety here, and I think the parts can work rather well together. However, it's the least mobile of the three lists I've drawn up. This one is my least favorite because of that lack of mobility.

-Archetype

I like this one the most, but I've always taken additional firepower over mobility.

Personally I've never liked the IG flame tanks. I'd dump the bane wolf and replace it with a platoon command squad in a chimera with flamers. You won't be as fast or tough but it's give you a total of 3 heavy flamers and 3 normal flamers. It also has the added bonus of being able to cap objectives.

I'd dump the commander's power weapon and give the squad some weapon upgrades. Maybe sniper rifles to utilize their BS4.

Other than that, it looks pretty good to me.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Quick question on Space Marines - how many Assault Marines does one need before they become effective?
Like, 1 squad of 10?
3 of 5?

Yes, Cheesegear, I know - if I'm taking Assault Marines, then how do I put in all the bikers I'll no doubt need to add to my army? :smalltongue:

[Thatguyoverther]

Quick question on Space Marines - how many Assault Marines does one need before they become effective?
Like, 1 squad of 10?
3 of 5?

Yes, Cheesegear, I know - if I'm taking Assault Marines, then how do I put in all the bikers I'll no doubt need to add to my army? :smalltongue:

It depends allot on who you're facing and at what point level. Against shooty armies like the IG and Tau just about any size'll hurt, provided you make it into assault range. If you expect to face a horde army a bigger squad might be a better bet.

Even a small squad of well placed deep striking assault marines can put a crimp in an opponent's plans.

[Forrestfire]

stuff


So should I drop the raider for another squad? Also, I just realized that squads with 4 or less can't have heavy weapons... Maybe I should just use the deathwing list for my grots... With 130 points for the HQ instead of 270, and no need for drop pods, I'd have a much higher model count... hmm...

EDIT: I made an alternate list with the dark angels codex:


HQ
Belial, Master of the Deathwing w/ twin lightning claws

Troops
Deathwing Terminator Squad
-Sergeant w/ power sword, assault cannon
-Standard Bearer w/ deathwing company banner, twin lightning claws
-Apothecary w/ narthecium/reductor, twin lightning claws
-2 w/ twin lightning claws

Deathwing Terminator Squad
-Sergeant w/ power sword, assault cannon
-2 w/ storm bolters, power fists
-2 w/ twin lightning claws

Deathwing Terminator Squad
-Sergeant w/ power sword, storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher
-2 w/ storm bolters, power fists
-2 w/ twin lightning claws

Heavy Support
Vindicator w/ pintle-mounted storm bolter, dozer blade

Total: 1000

[evisiron]

Lycan: Nice suggestion for the title. It looks good up there. :smallsmile:

Cheesegear: Sweet, I love following Tale Of 4 Gamers-esque army growth blogs.
It's disappointing to hear you are avoiding Orks. If no-one uses them, jump on it! It is a great army that can evolve its purpose but still use the core units - da boys! - and follow a great Waaagh format for army fluff.

But, since it may not be an option, I am chipping my vote for Tyranids. No-one in my group plays them and I would be very interested to see how they grow, and it's pretty far from your existing Biker Legion.

DCGFTW: I would recommend against so many points in one unit. Nob bikers can be pretty awesome, but they can die. Even a single ordinance round can gut the unit with an unlucky set of rolls. I would reduce the unit a bit and perhaps take another shoota boy unit, perhaps a small one in a trukk coming in from reserves when the tanks are dead.

Also, beware the wierdboy in that big unit. If you get stuck with a deep strike, they will have a really hard time landing with such a large footprint.

[Thatguyoverther]

I was thinking about putting up an after action report. Would it be better off here or in another separate thread? A thread dedicated to players posting AARs would be awesome, if of course, there we're enough people interested.

[crazedloon]

I was thinking about putting up an after action report. Would it be better off here or in another separate thread? A thread dedicated to players posting AARs would be awesome, if of course, there we're enough people interested.

I would say post it hear and maybe we can throw some thoughts out about the tactics used during the game :smallwink:

[Archetype-]

I like this one the most, but I've always taken additional firepower over mobility.

I don't remember if I mentioned it above, but mobility is what I'm going for here. Don't get me wrong, I like having good firepower. I just don't like staying put to utilize it. I'd rather be more.... aggresive and dynamic, slamming into enemy lines with the force of a furious storm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsdawgd0azk). The sole reason I came up with that list was to figure out how to (effectively) fit in the ~90 infantry models a friend of mine traded to me.


Personally I've never liked the IG flame tanks. I'd dump the bane wolf and replace it with a platoon command squad in a chimera with flamers. You won't be as fast or tough but it's give you a total of 3 heavy flamers and 3 normal flamers. It also has the added bonus of being able to cap objectives.

One issue with that. I can only have one PCS per Platoon. I could upgrade one PCS to the set-up you suggest, leaving me 55 points to distribute elsewhere. The problem remains that the list overall is too static for my tastes.


I'd dump the commander's power weapon and give the squad some weapon upgrades. Maybe sniper rifles to utilize their BS4.

I figured as much anyways. Either that or a cheap heavy weapon. :smallannoyed:

Thanks for the advice.

-Archetype

[Cheesegear]

But it could be my vain hope and optimism that we may be seeing plastic GK and SoB (which would be fantastic).

I've been told that both DHs and WHs are on the home-stretch. Whatever is left now, is all there is. And Mail Order will probably continue selling until they run out. But, since it is direct order, they do have a lot of stock. Once stock runs out, that's it.

...But, they are looking at a revamp - probably - but, not anytime soon. Basically, those who already have them can keep playing them. No-one's stopping them. Those who are looking to get into it, it might not be a good idea. :smallfrown:


Also, I did a little number crunching for my Eldar list, and came up with something different.

Right.


Avatar - 155

Always unfair in 1000 points. Keep it up.


7 Striking Scorpions + Exarch w/ Powerclaw, Infriltrate and move through cover - 180

Perfectly fine.


8 Dire Avengers + Autarch w/ Dual Shruiken Catapults, Bladestorm - 140

...You mean Exarch right? Not Autarch? :smallconfused:


5 Eldar Pathfinders - 120

6 Guardian Jetbikes w/ 2x Shriken Cannons - 152

Great.


But in the format I am lacking anti-tank very much save the Avatar himself, and if my opponent is canny enough to stymie him with a big unit in close combat, he'll become somewhat lack-lustre. Any opinions?

Exactly what you said right there.


Quick question on Space Marines - how many Assault Marines does one need before they become effective?
Like, 1 squad of 10?

Full strength squads - or near full-strength. Always. Personally, I never go with less than 8. And I never run any without an attached Chaplain. They tend to kill half of any non-power armoured army by themselves.


Yes, Cheesegear, I know - if I'm taking Assault Marines, then how do I put in all the bikers I'll no doubt need to add to my army? :smalltongue:

...Is this a joke? :smallconfused:
...You take a Captain on Bike, and make all your Bike Squads Troops, thereby freeing all your FA slots for Land Speeders and Scout Bikes Assault Marines...I guess...Win. :smalltongue:


EDIT: I made an alternate list with the dark angels codex:

And it is much better. Save for the fact that your pick 'n' mixing your squads. It might seem like a nice idea. But, it isn't. You should have as many Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons as you can.

[Winterwind]

And I think it's time for the next entry in the "Winter asks questions about rules for incredibly specific and rare situations that happen once in a decade for no reason"-series. :smallcool:

Let's say there is a large close-combat battle taking place - side A has one unit in that close-combat, side B has two units, both of which are Fearless.
And then side B loses that combat anyway, let's say by 5 points.
Side B's units are subject to the No Retreat! rule, and suffer additional wounds.
But how many? Is it 5 wounds each for both of the units in that combat, or is it 5 wounds total which get distributed somehow (and if so, how?) on these two units?

My assumption is it's 5 wounds total, distributed by the player controlling side B however s/he sees fit, but I'd rather know for sure.

[Blackknight1239]

And I think it's time for the next entry in the "Winter asks questions about rules for incredibly specific and rare situations that happen once in a decade for no reason"-series. :smallcool:

Let's say there is a large close-combat battle taking place - side A has one unit in that close-combat, side B has two units, both of which are Fearless.
And then side B loses that combat anyway, let's say by 5 points.
Side B's units are subject to the No Retreat! rule, and suffer additional wounds.
But how many? Is it 5 wounds each for both of the units in that combat, or is it 5 wounds total which get distributed somehow (and if so, how?) on these two units?

My assumption is it's 5 wounds total, distributed by the player controlling side B however s/he sees fit, but I'd rather know for sure.

Hmm. I'm pretty sure both side B's units take 5 wounds. The No Retreat! states that the losing side takes as many wounds as it has lost by. Now, to decide how much a side lost by, you tally up the kills on both sides. If one side lost by 5, both would have to take a leadership test at -5. But because of the No Retreat! rule, 5 wounds are inflicted on the unit instead.

[Cheesegear]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure both side B's units take 5 wounds.

That's what I read too. I was then looking for like, ten minutes for a loophole around it. Turns out, all B's units will take 5 wounds if they lose by five.

Then checked the FAQ...Nothing.

Moral of the story; Don't Assault the same target with more than one Fearless unit. :smalleek:


Hmm. I'm pretty sure both side B's units take 5 wounds.

That's what I read too. I was then looking for like, ten minutes for a loophole around it. Turns out, all B's units will take 5 wounds if they lose by five.

Then checked the FAQ...Nothing.

Moral of the story; Don't Assault the same target with more than one Fearless unit. :smalleek:

[Winterwind]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure both side B's units take 5 wounds. The No Retreat! states that the losing side takes as many wounds as it has lost by. Now, to decide how much a side lost by, you tally up the kills on both sides. If one side lost by 5, both would have to take a leadership test at -5. But because of the No Retreat! rule, 5 wounds are inflicted on the unit instead.Hmmm... I understand your logic, but on the other hand, couldn't one argue that if 5 wounds were inflicted on both units, the losing side would be taking 10 wounds total (in contradiction to No Retreat! stating it should take as many wounds as it lost by?)


That's what I read too. I was then looking for like, ten minutes for a loophole around it. Turns out, all B's units will take 5 wounds if they lose by five.

Then checked the FAQ...Nothing.

Moral of the story; Don't Assault the same target with more than one Fearless unit. :smalleek:Or at least if you do, do not lose that combat. :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Also, on the army-blog front, I just envisioned a Grey Knights army at 2500 points.

HQ - Grey Knight Hero
Elites - Grey Knight Terminators
Troops - Grey Knights
Fast Attack - Grey Knights with Teleport!
Heavy Support - Grey Knights with Special Weapons, Dreadnoughts (should be Elites, IMO) and Land Raiders.
(Nearly all metal :smallfrown:)

Basically, I only have one Troop type. A Fast Attack choice that is exactly the same as the Troops choice. And Heavy Support choices exactly the same as the Troop choices.
...I think I might give GKs a miss. It just doesn't sound like fun collecting 1500 points of the same unit. :smallfrown:
And the Elites choice is the Troop choice, just slightly better.

Also, if I take my friend's advice, a 2500 point Necron army should have 1000+ points worth of Warriors. Immortals are 'just better Warriors'. And Destroyers are 'Immortals on Jetbikes'.
That being said, I've been meaning to start a Necron army for quite some time.

Sooo...Tyranid Warrior Army activate? If you're looking for a 'normal' Tyranid army, this wont be it. I have a habit of making slightly absurd (yet awesome) lists.
Necrons or Tau?
Or Chaos Daemons if you guys hate me. :smallfrown:

Also had a glance at Battle Missions. KILL TEAMS ARE BACK!!!!

[Winterwind]

I'm still in favour of the Daemons. I think an army that plays so completely differently than all the others, with their special Demonic-Assault-Everything-Deepstrikes rules and such, would be the most interesting to observe.

EDIT: Though I don't want you to think that I hate you! If you do not actually want to play/collect those, by all means, don't! :smalleek:

[Gauntlet]

I'm thinking of starting up collecting.. something.. for a new army. I'm bored of the Blood Angels and Eldar don't really fit my play style. What'd you recommend? I've been considering these options:
- Ork tank spam
- Necrons of some flavor or other
- Tau armored stuff
- Daemons. Just because they look fun and no-one I know runs them.

[Cheesegear]

I'm bored of the Blood Angels and Eldar don't really fit my play style. What'd you recommend? I've been considering these options:
- Ork tank spam
- Necrons of some flavor or other
- Tau armored stuff
- Daemons. Just because they look fun and no-one I know runs them.

Orks can tank spam? At best they can have 3 Wagons. And another 3-5 Battlewagons for Dedicated Transports for Nobz. You really want to do that? :smallconfused:
Necrons only have one flavour. :smallamused:
Tau Devilfish Armies of Doom are scary stuff when done right.

Daemons are not fun. Daemons are hard to learn, and impossible to master.

I'm assuming that since you're bored of Blood Angels, you want something that doesn't spend it's whole time Assaulting? Well, you could go full 180 and take Tau - who never Assault if they can help it.

[Gauntlet]

Sorry, when I typed tank spam I was meaning Speed Freeks.

And when I say I'm bored of blood angels, I'm not quite meaning that. It's more that I want to have an army where most of my stuff is impervious to small arms fire (I recently played a Guard army where one assault squad minced 3 units while being rapid fired by 30/20/10 lasguns every turn). I get bored of having half as many units as the people I fight and getting the same results every game (Bombard with a few heavy weapons for a turn or two, land speeder gets blown to hell, I get into combat and mince some stuff, end).

Just to clarify, I'm a casual player and I'm pretty much never over 1500 points. Usually 500-1000, but occasionaly I drop in on bigger games at the local GW store.

[Selrahc]

Daemons are not fun. Daemons are hard to learn, and impossible to master.

*If* things go right though they can be reassuringly stabby.

I'd second Devilfish army. Thats partly because I love the concept of mechanized infantry, and the Tau are pretty much the best at that. One of my friends has a devilfish army and it works pretty well.

[Cheesegear]

*If* things go right though they can be reassuringly stabby.

Fixed it for you.

[Winterwind]

At least Soul Grinders appear decently awesome, judging from their capabilities...

Some of the Greater Daemons, Keepers of Secrets in particular, look quite effective, too.

And anything riding a Khornate Juggernaut should tear into the enemies like a hot knife through butter.

[largertyler]

ok... So i got bored and wanted to make a scary 500pts, wither its good or not was kinda irrelevant, this this is scary, here it goes

CCS 50
Creed (OH YEAH!) 90
4 grenade launchers 20
camo or carapace Armour 20 (based on field I'm on)
total 180

platoon 1
PCS 30
4 grenade launchers 20
squad 50 +5 grenade launcher
squad 50 +5 grenade launcher

platoon 2
PCS 30
4 grenade launchers 20
squad 50 +5 grenade launcher
squad 50 +5 grenade launcher

16 special weapons creed and only 500 pts. There will be blood.

comments appreciated

[MountainKing]

Not supposed to list your point costs; otherwise, I'm no good (read: total lacking in knowledge about) with Guard. However, I'm not quite seeing how that army is even remotely frightening; the first Tau army I played with could shoot it to pieces. :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

At least Soul Grinders appear decently awesome, judging from their capabilities...

Soul Grinders are just about the only thing guaranteed to be effective. For one turn. Then they get shot at.


Some of the Greater Daemons, Keepers of Secrets in particular, look quite effective, too.

IMO, the Keeper of Secrets is the best one. There is no special character KoS because it's not really possible to make a KoS better than it already is.


And anything riding a Khornate Juggernaut should tear into the enemies like a hot knife through butter.

Yep. Therein lies the problem. All the good units you've described are Heavy Support, HQ and Elite. Chaos Daemon Troops and Fast Attack are kind of really bad.

Largertyler:
What do you need Creed for?
No Heavy Weapons? Granted, it is 500 points. But, you still need S7 or 8 weapons to deal with Dreadnoughts. Think about trading some of those Grenade Launchers for Missile Launchers.

...That's about it. It's only 500 points. There's not much to say. Given that you've done it right, your Imperial Guard list should pretty much win every game. Except against shooty Space Marines and Tau, who will cut through you like butter.

[Winterwind]

I'll leave commenting on the Imperial Guard list to people more knowledgeable about the Imperial Guard than me.


Soul Grinders are just about the only thing guaranteed to be effective. For one turn. Then they get shot at.Unless they've deepstruck into melter range, there is at least a small chance they might survive though, right? :smallwink:


IMO, the Keeper of Secrets is the best one. There is no special character KoS because it's not really possible to make a KoS better than it already is.Indeed.
Though to make up for it the Masque is pretty much useless (or so it would seem to me), being far too vulnerable.


Yep. Therein lies the problem. All the good units you've described are Heavy Support, HQ and Elite. Chaos Daemon Troops and Fast Attack are kind of really bad.I'd argue Daemonettes aren't that bad. The others... yeah. Bloodletters may do okay, too, situationally, but are horribly expensive, and it only goes down from there. :smallfrown:

[Lycan 01]

Another conversion question - would it be possible to green stuff a surgical mask and smock onto a Nob Biker and count him as a Mad Dok? It seems easier than buying a (costly) Mad Dok, bisecting him, and grafting his torso onto a bike... And just to make sure its obvious, I'd make a "Red Kross" banner and stick it on the bike, too. If the Battleforce only comes with 3 Bikers, I want them to be as resiliant and dead stompy as possible. 4+ armor save, 4+ cover save, and 5+ invul save... That ought to keep those suckers alive for more than one round. :smallamused:


Oh, did we ever find out what happens if you give Biker Nobs 'ard armor? :smallconfused:

[largertyler]

my problem with missile launchers is they are to stationary. Grenade launchers have same stats and are assault weapons, and if i abuse cover, or use one squad to give another squad a cover save I'm dandy. Creeds staggering 4 orders works really well as bring it down will hopefully handle dreads, incoming will add plus 2 to any cover save making sitting 20 bodies on an objective a good idea, and if they do charge me with anything short of a walker, for the honor of Cadia give me furious charge.

And it was 12:30 in the morning after hours of studying for bio I need a distraction so through this together. I was so exited this morning with how much I crammed into 500 pts (I'm a marine player normally, i just got 1500 of gaurd) I wanted to share. Sadly the only people i tend to vs are sisters, and tao. Oh and an eldar guy, honestly i hate eldar most. Mostly due to wave serpents, GAAAR

edit: and being cut through like butter isn't a bad thing. I said there will be blood i never said who's will flow. I think of my list as more of a silly one timer thing. Just wanted comments about is as my friends were asleep at 1 in the morning

[MountainKing]

Well, if your main opponents are Sisters and Tau... I'd definitely say that you need something long range. Especially against Tau; anti-vehicle capabilities will definitely be a must, even if it's only 500 pts. I learned that lesson the hard way against a 500 pt Space Wolf list; it had exactly ONE Rhino, and it royally booched my day. :smallfrown:

[Arcanoi]

my problem with missile launchers is they are to stationary. Grenade launchers have same stats and are assault weapons, and if i abuse cover, or use one squad to give another squad a cover save I'm dandy. Creeds staggering 4 orders works really well as bring it down will hopefully handle dreads, incoming will add plus 2 to any cover save making sitting 20 bodies on an objective a good idea, and if they do charge me with anything short of a walker, for the honor of Cadia give me furious charge.

And it was 12:30 in the morning after hours of studying for bio I need a distraction so through this together. I was so exited this morning with how much I crammed into 500 pts (I'm a marine player normally, i just got 1500 of gaurd) I wanted to share. Sadly the only people i tend to vs are sisters, and tao. Oh and an eldar guy, honestly i hate eldar most. Mostly due to wave serpents, GAAAR

edit: and being cut through like butter isn't a bad thing. I said there will be blood i never said who's will flow. I think of my list as more of a silly one timer thing. Just wanted comments about is as my friends were asleep at 1 in the morning

First of all, slow down buddeh.

As for grenade launchers... where did you get the idea that they have the same stats as Missile Launchers...? IIRC, they're S6 AP4 or S3 AP-... which makes them a great deal worse than Rocket Launcher's S8 AP3 or S4 AP6. IIRC, they have 24" range to the Missile Launcher's 48". Your army shouldn't really be... moving, honestly. You hide behind cover and use the fact that you have three times as many bodies (At the least) than any of your opponents, and just whittle them down. The heavier the weapons you have, the better this will go, as your opponent can't afford to lose models like you can.

You should never PLAN to charge with Guardsmen. The only time I can think of in which charging is a good idea is if there's an enemy within 12" of your unit with Furious Charge that hasn't charged you yet. Then you charge and take away his bonus, but only after Rapid-Firing. Never plan to charge with Guardsmen, because you will LOSE if you do it. You're sending, even with Furious Charge, WS3 S4 T3 I4 Sv5+ units into CC. This is a bad idea, and unless the thing you're charging is a squad of Fire Warriors, you will lose every single time.

[crazedloon]

Daemons get a bad rap due to their randomness (which in all truth is giant disadvantage) however they can be very good if put together correctly.

I will also put my vote out there for you to play them cheesegear because they get such a bad rap it would be nice to see if we as a board (with you at the head of the army) could make them viable with some strategy and mathhammer :smalltongue: (and a lot of luck)

as far as the models themselves :
HQ
the fateweaver is a must as he can throw around some awesome magic and daemons in his bubble become ridiculously hard to kill.

the masque is actually very very good because she allows you to reposition 3 units which allow you to move them into or out of assault range (or firing range) as well as closer for better template placement. She also only counts as 1/2 of an HQ choice

Skulltaker is another awesome model, capable of hunting characters or multiple wound models he can devastate nob even when they think they can hide on bikes :smallwink: again also only 1/2 an HQ choice

the three above would be my suggestion of an HQ layout


Elite

Flamers, in my opinion the best choice for your elites. They do not care about your AV, and can kill any unit type (even tanks). They are fast with the best invulnerable of any of the elite choices which makes them able to survive (due to being able to take advantage of terrain for LoS and when shot at more likely to make the save). Also they synergies well with the masque who can clump units to allow you to blanket with templates

fiends are decent if you want to keep units occupied but I wouldn't bother as your elites need to be the heavy hitters

beasts are horrid stay away from these at all cost.

Bloodcrushers are good because they have a "high" armor value with high toughness, power weapons and they can allow accurate DSing


Troops

Pink horrors are nice because they give you ranged attacks. The changeling is a nice addition particularly used against short ranged models such as meltaguns to blow up opponents own vehicles. These guys also have the best save

Daemonettes are the fastest of the option so can hold up enemy units easier (due to the ability to intercept)

bloodletters, power weapons on a troop choice? seems rather awesome :smallwink:

plague bearers are awesome for take and hold as they can be harder than the warp itself to move out of a defensive postion.

The troop choices are a little less obvious however if you know the sort of missions or opponents you will be playing it helps a lot

Fast attack

Seekers have a rediculous number of attack with rending and as such can take down heavily armored opponents. They also are cav so they can move far easier from cover to cover. Only downside is the low S/T

Hounds are slow but they have more attacks than furys

furys have the speed but lack the number of attacks.

Screamers are the fastest, have the best save and make awesome tank hunters (leaving the rest of your big hitters to worry about troops)

Heavy support

soulgrinders are awesome and unless your opponent is willing to drop a lot of firepower onto him he will stick around and devastate. IMHO only the template is worth the upgrade due to the low BS and the template can take advantage of the masque

Princes can be great tank hunters or great middle men to hold units for the rest of your army to appear and deal with them, however when compared to the other Heavy option they are lacking


suggested list

HQ: 573
Fateweaver
Masque
skulltaker with Juggernaut

Elite: 715
Flamer 7x
Flamer 7x
bloodcrushers 5x with icon

Troops: 715
Plaguebearers 10x
icon
Plaguebearers 10x
icon
bloodletters 10x
icon
horrors 10x
icon
changeling

Fast attack: 320
screamers 10x
screamers 10x

Heavy: 160
soulgrinder
phlegm

and the army should be split into

screamer
soulgrinder
plaguebearer
plaguebearer
masque
letters


flamer
flamer
horrors
fateweaver
bloodcrushers
skulltaker
screamer

The one half has heavy hitters who can sit back and hold a position until the other half DS while the other half has fast forces which can clear and scatter a good deal of the enemy before the other half DS with units who can finish the job all while being resilient due to good saves. Each half also have the screamers to deal with tanks which will cause problems.

Admittedly this is all just my opinion so I don't know 100% how well it would work


just my .02 though at this point it may be a little more that that :smalltongue:

[Selrahc]

From my own play experience with Daemons I'd disagree somewhat about the relative usefulness of the troops and greater daemons, I don't think Slaaneesh is as all conquering or soul grinders so indispensable. We've had the argument before though so I'm not sure much purpose is served in rehashing.

Suffice to say though, Daemons are a difficult army to play and one you should only play either for novelty or masochism. Or because you are a fan of daemons. Chance can all too readily kick you in the teeth to an even greater extent than any other army.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Your army shouldn't really be... moving, honestly. You hide behind cover and use the fact that you have three times as many bodies (At the least) than any of your opponents, and just whittle them down.


I think you are underestimating the power of moving units. Just because you usually shouldn't move, doesn't mean that when the opportunity arises, you shouldn't.

Moving into rapid fire/flamer range is the obvious example. Also using lesser units to block more important units (as you said, use the bodies to your advantage).

Grenade launchers are okay. But I do perfer flamers.

edit: For reference, in the few games I've played my guard (haven't lost yet at least), I've had one stationary platoon with heavy weapons, and one with assault guns (to move around and take objectives/keep the enemy busy).

[Thatguyoverther]

As promised my AAR: (Under Construction)

My Army

HQ

Company Command Squad- 70
Sniper Riflesx4

Troops

Veteran Squad- 115
Missile Launcher
Demolitions

Veteran Squad- 120
Plasma Gunsx2
Lascannon

Fast Attack

Sentinel- 45
Missile launcher

Armored Sentinel- 75
Plasma Cannon

Armored Sentinel- 75
Plasma Cannon


Space Marine Army (Not sure on point costs and equipment.)

HQ

Librarian-
Bike

Troops

Scouts-
Sniper rifles
Missile Launcher

Scouts-
Sniper rifles
Missile Launcher

Fast Attack

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Land Speeder-
Meltagun



Before Turn 1
The armies are both a little weird for a couple of reasons.

The table was small, only 3 feet by a little less then 4.

My opponent was fully expecting me to take a basilisk. He was planning on using the landspeeders to take it, and any sentinels I took out.

Since I knew that the table was tiny and that my opponent was expecting me to take a basilisk, so I didn't. Score one for double think:smallcool:. I tooled my army thinking that I'd have to deal with nasty anti-tank units. My worst fear was that he'd take deepstrike a dreadnought, so I took a little more anti-tank then was absolutely necessary. I also elected to take just the 2 vet squads, mostly because I was afraid of getting clobbered in an annihilation game.

After showing each other out army lists, we placed terrain and rolled for the game type. There were four fairly large pieces of terrain, a couple of forests, a ruined building and a wall. The forests ended up near the opposite corners, with the ruin and the wall being placed close to the other two corners. We rolled a capture ground mission and standard deployment.

We placed out objectives, he placed his a couple of inches from the woods closer to him so that a squad could cap it and still stay in cover. I, in a stroke, of tactical brilliance decided that I'd place my objective out in the open where I could shooterate anyone who tried to capture it:smallamused:. A second later I realized that I needed to leave a squad in the open to hold it:smallannoyed:.

He placed both of his scouts in the woods near his objective, one land speeder out of LoS behind the same forest and the librarian behind the wall and out of sight. He opted to keep the other two land speeders in reserve.

I placed my command squad near the forest closer to me, the demo vets in the ruin and the plasma vets near my objective. I placed the sentinel near the forest where he'd be able to move and instant death the librarian. One armored sent. I put behind the plasma squad and the other near the table edge by the ruins.


Turn 1


My Movement
My movement phase was unexciting. Everyone pretty much hunkered down and prepared to fire. The exceptions where my command squad, who where trying to get into cover in the forest and the missile sent who was moving so he could get LoS on the librarian. I rolled badly for the command squads move through cover, only a single model actually made it into cover.

My Shooting
My krak missile at the librarian missed.

The two vet squads open up, but manage to do nothing against the scouts and their damnable cover saves.

The plasma cannon on one armored sent scatters harmlessly, and the other is ignored by cover saves. I managed to do absolutely nothing in my shooting phase. :smalleek:

My Assault
Nothing was in assault range.

His Movement
The scouts stay put. He moves the librarian up into assault range of the sentinel. He brings his landspeeder around and draws a bead on one of my armored sentinels.

His Shooting
His landspeeder misses, thankfully. Unfortunately both of the scouts squads take shots at both of my armored sentinels and hit. Fortunate he rolls badly of armor penetration and fails to score a even a glancing hit.

The Librarian opens up on my unarmored sentinel but fails to do anything.

I don't feel nearly so bad about my failure of a shooting phase since his fail too.

His Assault
He assaults my missile sent with his librarian. He uses Might of Ancients and then proceeds to score a penetrating hit on my sentinel. It kersplodes but he ignores the measly strength 3 hit.




Turn 2

My Movement
I move my command squad further into cover, unfortunately I fail again at rolling and a single model doesn't make it into cover.

Deciding that I like to live dangerously I decide to move both of my vet squads forward. I figure that I stand a fair chance of winning an assault. It'll be WS3 S3 T3 against WS3 S4 T4, but if I get the assault it'll be 20 attacks versus 5, int he first round. If I can wipe both his scout squads, then I'll be able to cap his objective for a win.

My Shooting
One of my sentinels fires at the closer of the two scout squads and manages to hit. I manage kill a single scout. Not great but not bad. The other sentinel fires at the landspeeder but misses. It scatters tantalizingly close to his second scout squad but comes up short.

The plasma squad moved so they are no longer in rapid fire range.

The demo squad doesn't fire their guns because I'm planning on assaulting, but throws a demo charge at the landspeeder. I miss. :smallmad:

My Assault
The demo squad is the only one in assault range. I'm left with a conundrum. I can either assault the scout squad in cover or the landspeeder. I figure that since next turn the plasma squad'll be in rapid fire range I can hold off on the scouts and soften them up before assaulting next turn. I opt to charge the landspeeder.

The assault goes nicely. I manage to connect with two plasma grenades, and score two penetrating hits. Unfortunately my luck turns very sharply. The landspeeder explodes, and the dice gods laugh. I loose 6 guardsmen, decimating the demo squad.

His Movement
The scouts stay put. He moves his librarian closer to my command squad

His Shooting
His librarian opens an manages to kill one of the models in my vet squad. I choose to take out the model not in cover. Eat dangerous terrain test you bastard:smallyuk:.

His snipers switch targets to my vet squads. The demos loose another man, pass their pinning test but fall back.

The other squad looses two men but passes their pinning test.


His Assault
His hq assaults my hq. He uses might of ancients again and another two guardsmen die.


Turn 3


My Movement

Things look bad. I can't rally my demo squad and they fall back off the board. Now I'm down to one vet squad. It looks like the best I can hope for now is a draw. I bring my plasma squad back so that I can at least cap my objective.

I also move one of my armored sents into assault range so that he can tie up one of the scout squads.

My Shooting

Since I pulled my vets back, they are once again out of rapid fire range. Le sigh.

Both of the sentinels fire their plasma cannons but as ever they fail me.

My Assault
My armored sentinel attacks. Since it's got a front armor of 12 they can only damage it with a krak grenade and even then they can only score a glancing blow. My attacks fail to do anything, but luckily the mathhammer works, for once, and they don't manage to do anything either.

The other assault goes pretty well, I do nothing and he gets one wound. I take it on my Commander and I fail to make my invulnerable save so he's down a wound.

His Movment
He rolls for his reserves and deep strikes both of his remaining landspeeders. He tries to place them within 12 of my unengaged sentinel but the both scatter.

His Shooting
For some reason my remaining unengaged sentinel seems charmed, one melta shot fails to hit and the other fails to penetrate.

His Assault
His librarian inflicts another wound, feeling gutsy I take it on my commander and he makes is invulnerable save.

Defying the odds the scout squad manages to land two hits with their grenades, one of which scores a glancing hit. It scores a crew stunned, which is doesn't effect anything since my sentinel only had 1 attack to begin with. The sentinel's attack once again does nothing.


Turns 4 & 5


In my turn my vet squad managed to take out one of the landspeeders and the armored sent took out the other.

After that point it was pretty much just clean up. I kept getting lucky with my invulnerable saves so both of the close combats remained stalemates.

I tried running my remaining walker close enough to contest the second objective but I came up short. The remaining vet squad made it to the objective and sat there without any targets in sight.

Since it ended with us both only holding our own objectives the game came out a draw.

[Kzickas]

how's this for an 650pts space marine army?

hq:
space marine chaplain w/jump pack 115pts

troops:
10 scouts w/combat blades 140pts
drop pod 35pt
10 space marines, flamer, plasma cannon, seargent w/powerfist 200pts
razorback 40pts

fast attack:
assult squad w/melta bombs 105pts

[Arcanoi]

how's this for an 650pts space marine army?

hq:
space marine chaplain w/jump pack 115pts

troops:
10 scouts w/combat blades 140pts
drop pod 35pt
10 space marines, flamer, plasma cannon, seargent w/powerfist 200pts
razorback 40pts

fast attack:
assult squad w/melta bombs 105pts


Chaplain: A fine HQ for 650 points. No problem.

Scouts: No. Just no. Either drop them with bolters or don't drop them at all. In 650 points, you're basically throwing away 175 points by putting them into a drop pod with combat blades.

Tactical Squad: First of all, Tacts can't take plasma cannons, I'll assume you mean a plasma gun. I believe this squad would do better with a Rocket Launcher/Flamer instead of a Plasma/Flamer. Then you can split them into combat squads and camp one squad with the Missile Launcher while throw the other into the Razorback with the Sergeant and Flamer. At 650 Points, you should seriously consider giving your Razorback some weapons. They can kick ass.

Assault Squad: I don't recall how many points each assault Marine is, but this squad seems small. At 650 Points, an 7-10-man Assault Squad with a Chaplain can win you the game quite easily by killing just about anything.

[Closet_Skeleton]

...That's about it. It's only 500 points. There's not much to say. Given that you've done it right, your Imperial Guard list should pretty much win every game. Except against shooty Space Marines and Tau, who will cut through you like butter.

Space Marines can't do anything at 500 points. They only get about 2 squads.

[Winterwind]

Tactical Squad: First of all, Tacts can't take plasma cannons, I'll assume you mean a plasma gun. I believe this squad would do better with a Rocket Launcher/Flamer instead of a Plasma/Flamer. Then you can split them into combat squads and camp one squad with the Missile Launcher while throw the other into the Razorback with the Sergeant and Flamer. At 650 Points, you should seriously consider giving your Razorback some weapons. They can kick ass.Actually, yes, Tactical Marines can take Plasma Cannons (page 134 in the codex). Contrariwise, what you assumed instead would have been illegal; they cannot take a Plasma Gun and a Flamer at once.

[Arcanoi]

Actually, yes, Tactical Marines can take Plasma Cannons (page 134 in the codex). Contrariwise, what you assumed instead would have been illegal; they cannot take a Plasma Gun and a Flamer at once.

Huh. My bad >_> I was under the impression that only devastators had access to Plasma Cannons. Anyway, my ultimate suggestion still stands.

[crazedloon]

how's this for an 650pts space marine army?

hq:
space marine chaplain w/jump pack 115pts

troops:
10 scouts w/combat blades 140pts
drop pod 35pt
10 space marines, flamer, plasma cannon, seargent w/powerfist 200pts
razorback 40pts

fast attack:
assult squad w/melta bombs 105pts


The scouts should have sniper rifles because they are more versatile, capable of taking down anything from normal troops (and pinning them) to MC which you may not see at this point value but as your army gets larger become more common.

The drop pod is a waist for a scout squad with sniper rifles thus drop it to equip the razorback with a better weapon I would suggest lascannon to take care of armor (should only be up against other transports but better safe than sorry)

should leave you able to pin and stop larger units from mobing your small assault squad (with sniper shots) take out tanks (with razorback, plasma and melta bomb) take out heavily armed opponents (Chaplin, plasma cannon) and be highly maneuverable (razorback, assault marines) And should be able to expand up to 100 with ease (expand assault squad, add a heavy support choice)

[hamishspence]

Could have been a change over time- didn't earlier versions of the codex (3rd ed?) forbid plasma cannons and multi-meltas, on tactical squads?

[Shas aia Toriia]

Could have been a change over time- didn't earlier versions of the codex (3rd ed?) forbid plasma cannons and multi-meltas, on tactical squads?

Yeah. Having just checked my 3rd ed. SM codex - they were only allowed Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers, or Lascannons.

[Lycan 01]

I was able to unbox the model WW2 tank - which turned out to be a German Panther - and discovered that its a 1/35 size model, and it actually looks relatively good size-wise. The weapons are kinda... wimpy, though. :smallconfused: The turret gun is kinda scrawny, but its almost the length of the tank itself. I suppose that evens out... But the machine guns look they'd fit in a Big Shoota, rather than count as one. I don't have much Dakka to spare for bits, either. I suppose I could spend the 10 points for the two Big Shootas, and instead equip it with a Rokkit Launcha. I can just have the Ork popping out of the top hatch be waving it around, since my only spare Rokkit Launcha has hands on it...

Something caught my eye earlier, though. Rokkit Launchas aren't Blast weapons, according to the codex. But I've heard and read elsewhere, unless I'm horribly mistaken, that they are Blast weapons. I'd check the regular rulebook, but my SM buddy has it. Plus, Codex > rulebook. Or did I miss something? :smallconfused:



I'm still wondering if you can convert a Biker Nob into a Mad Dok, as well as what 'Eavy Armor does to a Nob Biker. :smallconfused:

[crazedloon]

stuff

I would suggest getting some straws from a fast food joint (or maybe even a large straw from 7-11 or the like) to beef up the gun on the turret. As for the machine guns just cut up a shoota (take of the barrel) use the cut barrel as an extension for another shoot and use that as a big shoota (maybe even set two together for a double barreled look)

As for the doc that should be perfectly fine (this game is all about conversions and modeling the way you like)

the rokkits are not blast unfortunately (would make them so much better due to the bad BS of orcs) and the armor value would not change if you had a bike and armor

[Arcanoi]

I'm still wondering what 'Eavy Armor does to a Nob Biker. :smallconfused:

Well.. it gives you a save against things that don't allow Cover Saves... and a 4+ save in CC against things without PWs.

[MountainKing]

I'm still wondering if you can convert a Biker Nob into a Mad Dok, as well as what 'Eavy Armor does to a Nob Biker. :smallconfused:

If you're creative enough, I'm sure just about anything is possible, and at a glance, it appears that 'Eavy Armor on a Nob Biker is just like 'Eavy Armor on anything else; a 4+ armor save.

EDIT: Ninja'd. HOWEVER, uh, guy with the guard army... against the Marines... Yeah, question for you. If it's take and hold, why was he trucking his librarian toward your command squad? Did he have anyone with him? I do believe Independent Characters are unable to capture objectives by themselves...

[crazedloon]

Well.. it gives you a save against things that don't allow Cover Saves... and a 4+ save in CC against things without PWs.

Bike already do that. If you have both you just have 2 4+ armor values stacking for no reason

[MountainKing]

Bike already do that. If you have both you just have 2 4+ armor values stacking for no reason

Uh, what? From what I can tell, all bikes give is +1 Toughness... Are you sure? :smallconfused:

[crazedloon]

any model on a warbike adds 1 to his toughness (though not for determining instant death), modifies his troop type to Bike, gains a 4+ armor save and the.....

for a strait up quote of the rule on page 46 of the codex

[Thatguyoverther]

I finished up my After Action Report if anyone cares to read it.


My Army

HQ

Company Command Squad- 70
Sniper Riflesx4

Troops

Veteran Squad- 115
Missile Launcher
Demolitions

Veteran Squad- 120
Plasma Gunsx2
Lascannon

Fast Attack

Sentinel- 45
Missile launcher

Armored Sentinel- 75
Plasma Cannon

Armored Sentinel- 75
Plasma Cannon


Space Marine Army (Not sure on point costs and equipment.)

HQ

Librarian-
Bike

Troops

Scouts-
Sniper rifles
Missile Launcher

Scouts-
Sniper rifles
Missile Launcher

Fast Attack

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Land Speeder-
Meltagun

Land Speeder-
Meltagun



Before Turn 1
The armies are both a little weird for a couple of reasons.

The table was small, only 3 feet by a little less then 4.

My opponent was fully expecting me to take a basilisk. He was planning on using the landspeeders to take it, and any sentinels I took out.

Since I knew that the table was tiny and that my opponent was expecting me to take a basilisk, so I didn't. Score one for double think:smallcool:. I tooled my army thinking that I'd have to deal with nasty anti-tank units. My worst fear was that he'd take deepstrike a dreadnought, so I took a little more anti-tank then was absolutely necessary. I also elected to take just the 2 vet squads, mostly because I was afraid of getting clobbered in an annihilation game.

After showing each other out army lists, we placed terrain and rolled for the game type. There were four fairly large pieces of terrain, a couple of forests, a ruined building and a wall. The forests ended up near the opposite corners, with the ruin and the wall being placed close to the other two corners. We rolled a capture ground mission and standard deployment.

We placed out objectives, he placed his a couple of inches from the woods closer to him so that a squad could cap it and still stay in cover. I, in a stroke, of tactical brilliance decided that I'd place my objective out in the open where I could shooterate anyone who tried to capture it:smallamused:. A second later I realized that I needed to leave a squad in the open to hold it:smallannoyed:.

He placed both of his scouts in the woods near his objective, one land speeder out of LoS behind the same forest and the librarian behind the wall and out of sight. He opted to keep the other two land speeders in reserve.

I placed my command squad near the forest closer to me, the demo vets in the ruin and the plasma vets near my objective. I placed the sentinel near the forest where he'd be able to move and instant death the librarian. One armored sent. I put behind the plasma squad and the other near the table edge by the ruins.


Turn 1


My Movement
My movement phase was unexciting. Everyone pretty much hunkered down and prepared to fire. The exceptions where my command squad, who where trying to get into cover in the forest and the missile sent who was moving so he could get LoS on the librarian. I rolled badly for the command squads move through cover, only a single model actually made it into cover.

My Shooting
My krak missile at the librarian missed.

The two vet squads open up, but manage to do nothing against the scouts and their damnable cover saves.

The plasma cannon on one armored sent scatters harmlessly, and the other is ignored by cover saves. I managed to do absolutely nothing in my shooting phase. :smalleek:

My Assault
Nothing was in assault range.

His Movement
The scouts stay put. He moves the librarian up into assault range of the sentinel. He brings his landspeeder around and draws a bead on one of my armored sentinels.

His Shooting
His landspeeder misses, thankfully. Unfortunately both of the scouts squads take shots at both of my armored sentinels and hit. Fortunate he rolls badly of armor penetration and fails to score a even a glancing hit.

The Librarian opens up on my unarmored sentinel but fails to do anything.

I don't feel nearly so bad about my failure of a shooting phase since his fail too.

His Assault
He assaults my missile sent with his librarian. He uses Might of Ancients and then proceeds to score a penetrating hit on my sentinel. It kersplodes but he ignores the measly strength 3 hit.




Turn 2

My Movement
I move my command squad further into cover, unfortunately I fail again at rolling and a single model doesn't make it into cover.

Deciding that I like to live dangerously I decide to move both of my vet squads forward. I figure that I stand a fair chance of winning an assault. It'll be WS3 S3 T3 against WS3 S4 T4, but if I get the assault it'll be 20 attacks versus 5, int he first round. If I can wipe both his scout squads, then I'll be able to cap his objective for a win.

My Shooting
One of my sentinels fires at the closer of the two scout squads and manages to hit. I manage kill a single scout. Not great but not bad. The other sentinel fires at the landspeeder but misses. It scatters tantalizingly close to his second scout squad but comes up short.

The plasma squad moved so they are no longer in rapid fire range.

The demo squad doesn't fire their guns because I'm planning on assaulting, but throws a demo charge at the landspeeder. I miss. :smallmad:

My Assault
The demo squad is the only one in assault range. I'm left with a conundrum. I can either assault the scout squad in cover or the landspeeder. I figure that since next turn the plasma squad'll be in rapid fire range I can hold off on the scouts and soften them up before assaulting next turn. I opt to charge the landspeeder.

The assault goes nicely. I manage to connect with two plasma grenades, and score two penetrating hits. Unfortunately my luck turns very sharply. The landspeeder explodes, and the dice gods laugh. I loose 6 guardsmen, decimating the demo squad.

His Movement
The scouts stay put. He moves his librarian closer to my command squad

His Shooting
His librarian opens an manages to kill one of the models in my vet squad. I choose to take out the model not in cover. Eat dangerous terrain test you bastard:smallyuk:.

His snipers switch targets to my vet squads. The demos loose another man, pass their pinning test but fall back.

The other squad looses two men but passes their pinning test.


His Assault
His hq assaults my hq. He uses might of ancients again and another two guardsmen die.


Turn 3


My Movement

Things look bad. I can't rally my demo squad and they fall back off the board. Now I'm down to one vet squad. It looks like the best I can hope for now is a draw. I bring my plasma squad back so that I can at least cap my objective.

I also move one of my armored sents into assault range so that he can tie up one of the scout squads.

My Shooting

Since I pulled my vets back, they are once again out of rapid fire range. Le sigh.

Both of the sentinels fire their plasma cannons but as ever they fail me.

My Assault
My armored sentinel attacks. Since it's got a front armor of 12 they can only damage it with a krak grenade and even then they can only score a glancing blow. My attacks fail to do anything, but luckily the mathhammer works, for once, and they don't manage to do anything either.

The other assault goes pretty well, I do nothing and he gets one wound. I take it on my Commander and I fail to make my invulnerable save so he's down a wound.

His Movment
He rolls for his reserves and deep strikes both of his remaining landspeeders. He tries to place them within 12 of my unengaged sentinel but the both scatter.

His Shooting
For some reason my remaining unengaged sentinel seems charmed, one melta shot fails to hit and the other fails to penetrate.

His Assault
His librarian inflicts another wound, feeling gutsy I take it on my commander and he makes is invulnerable save.

Defying the odds the scout squad manages to land two hits with their grenades, one of which scores a glancing hit. It scores a crew stunned, which is doesn't effect anything since my sentinel only had 1 attack to begin with. The sentinel's attack once again does nothing.


Turns 4 & 5


In my turn my vet squad managed to take out one of the landspeeders and the armored sent took out the other.

After that point it was pretty much just clean up. I kept getting lucky with my invulnerable saves so both of the close combats remained stalemates.

I tried running my remaining walker close enough to contest the second objective but I came up short. The remaining vet squad made it to the objective and sat there without any targets in sight.

Since it ended with us both only holding our own objectives the game came out a draw.


Feel free to give pointers, point out mistakes, or harass my grammar and word choices.

[Thatguyoverther]

EDIT: Ninja'd. HOWEVER, uh, guy with the guard army... against the Marines... Yeah, question for you. If it's take and hold, why was he trucking his librarian toward your command squad? Did he have anyone with him? I do believe Independent Characters are unable to capture objectives by themselves...

Nope he was all alone. I'm not sure. I think he was hoping to break them quickly and move on to another target. It might also have been because the squad was more dangerous in shooting then they would be in close combat.

[Arcanoi]

any model on a warbike adds 1 to his toughness (though not for determining instant death), modifies his troop type to Bike, gains a 4+ armor save and the.....

for a strait up quote of the rule on page 46 of the codex

So it does. Passing strange, that. Seems like I'm just making mistakes left and right today. I had thought they only got the Cover Save from the bikes, but apparently Nobs bikers don't get that.

[Lycan 01]

Like I said earlier, Nob Bikers get 4+ armor saves, 4+ cover saves, and if I add a Mad Dok and buy Cybork bodies, 5+ invul saves. :smallamused:

But dangit if they aren't costly! It costs more points for 3 Nob Bikers than it does for 20 'Ard Boyz! :smalleek:


Oh, and my SM buddy is a bit iffy about me converting that Panther tank. He's not too fond of the Looted Wagon rules to begin with, and he worries that the tank conversion might be a bit unfair. Should I be nice and just drop the idea, and focus on building Killa Kans? Or should I prove him wrong and show him how awesome my conversion skills are? :smallamused:

[crazedloon]

So it does. Passing strange, that. Seems like I'm just making mistakes left and right today. I had thought they only got the Cover Save from the bikes, but apparently Nobs bikers don't get that.

they get the cover save (its the part I left out in the quote)

as for the thatguy,

during the second turn you did not have an option who to assault you would have to have assaulted the landspeeder cus you threw the demo charge at it :smallwink:

As for your list I think you should have equiped one vet squad as a heavy support squad (with missle launcher, sniper rifles and camo to hide in the trees and hit vital units and take out light armor)
the other as a close assault squad (melta guns, or plasma your choice) and put them in a chimera (provides a nice means of blocking LoS and medium strength fire) which would move in to apply pressure.
dropped one Armour sentinel to pay for the chimera and the extra special weapons

this would have given you a unit to engage the scouts in the tree line as well as a unit that could engage them from range The chimera (once it dropped the vets) could have also contested the objective

just my .02

[Arcanoi]

Oh, and my SM buddy is a bit iffy about me converting that Panther tank. He's not too fond of the Looted Wagon rules to begin with, and he worries that the tank conversion might be a bit unfair. Should I be nice and just drop the idea, and focus on building Killa Kans? Or should I prove him wrong and show him how awesome my conversion skills are? :smallamused:

Are you saying that he's whining about how a Looted Wagon is too powerful? Looted Wagons are fine. Do it for the model conversion, if nothing else.

[Lycan 01]

He probably also realizes that he's got no anti-armor weapons on his marines, besides a plasma gun or two, since I'm usually going Sea of Green on him. A Looted Wagon, no matter how weak, would still be a problem for him. Especially when flanked by a trio of Kans and a flight of Dethkoptas.

His only armor is a Dreadnaught, which has a multi-melta he's been considering clipping off to replace with an Assault Cannon. I'm not sure how effective it is against vehicles, but I don't doubt he'd regret the switch if he's already done it and I decide to go Mekanized Infantree on him. :smallamused:


Also, I noticed the Warbikers kit only comes with 1 Nob torso. Sooo... How do I make Biker Nobz if I've only got the torso for 1? :smallconfused: Maybe he'd let such a small detail slide since I'm cranking out so many points for it, but still...

[Ninja Chocobo]

Another conversion question - would it be possible to green stuff a surgical mask and smock onto a Nob Biker and count him as a Mad Dok? It seems easier than buying a (costly) Mad Dok, bisecting him, and grafting his torso onto a bike...

I'm certainly intending to GS a lab coat onto one of my Bikerz for a Painboy, and make an 'urty Syringe from styrene. Ought to be perfectly fine.


Like I said earlier, Nob Bikers get 4+ armor saves, 4+ cover saves, and if I add a Mad Dok and buy Cybork bodies, 5+ invul saves. :smallamused:

Do not forget the 4+ Feel no Pain from the Painboy.


So it does. Passing strange, that. Seems like I'm just making mistakes left and right today. I had thought they only got the Cover Save from the bikes, but apparently Nobs bikers don't get that.

Dude. Read the codex.

"Warbike: Any model mounted on a Warbike adds 1 to his Toughness (though not for determining Instant Death), modifies his troop type to Bike, gains a 4+ armour save and the Exhaust Cloud special rule."

"Exhaust Cloud: Warbikers produce great clouds of smoky exhaust fumes, giving them a 4+ cover save."


Are you saying that he's whining about how a Looted Wagon is too powerful? Looted Wagons are fine. Do it for the model conversion, if nothing else.

A S8 AP3 large blast absolutely annihilates Marines.
All the more reason to take it. :smallamused:


Also, I noticed the Warbikers kit only comes with 1 Nob torso. Sooo... How do I make Biker Nobz if I've only got the torso for 1? :smallconfused: Maybe he'd let such a small detail slide since I'm cranking out so many points for it, but still...

Buy Bitz. There's like fifteen decent websites for it.

[Tren]

He probably also realizes that he's got no anti-armor weapons on his marines, besides a plasma gun or two, since I'm usually going Sea of Green on him.

Then maybe he should stop tailoring his list :smallannoyed:

Seriously, Looted Wagons aren't even that great. And unless you convert a model with some sort of ridiculously placed weapon mounts or LOS blocking additional appendages, I don't see much argument for the model being a problem. Besides, plasma guns and an assault cannon shouldn't have much trouble taking out a low AV open-topped vehicle.

[Thatguyoverther]

t

as for the thatguy,

during the second turn you did not have an option who to assault you would have to have assaulted the landspeeder cus you threw the demo charge at it :smallwink:

As for your list I think you should have equiped one vet squad as a heavy support squad (with missle launcher, sniper rifles and camo to hide in the trees and hit vital units and take out light armor)
the other as a close assault squad (melta guns, or plasma your choice) and put them in a chimera (provides a nice means of blocking LoS and medium strength fire) which would move in to apply pressure.
dropped one Armour sentinel to pay for the chimera and the extra special weapons

this would have given you a unit to engage the scouts in the tree line as well as a unit that could engage them from range The chimera (once it dropped the vets) could have also contested the objective

just my .02

Good catch. I guess the decision was whether to throw the demo charge at the Land speeder or at the scouts.

A chimera would have been great, if of course I had a chimera. :smallfrown: It'll definitely figure into future investments.

[Forrestfire]

And it is much better. Save for the fact that your pick 'n' mixing your squads. It might seem like a nice idea. But, it isn't. You should have as many Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons as you can.

Hmm. More storm bolters, less melee. Got it. One more question, would it be a bad idea to swap the assault cannon on the assault squad with the cyclone in the other squad so that the serg can have lightning claws?

Also, I just realized that the vindicator has 4th edition smoke launchers :smallbiggrin:. Glances only rule.

[crazedloon]

Good catch. I guess the decision was whether to throw the demo charge at the Land speeder or at the scouts.

A chimera would have been great, if of course I had a chimera. :smallfrown: It'll definitely figure into future investments.

yes I would suggest chimeras or Valkyries are must for vet squads because they should be equipped as fast mobile enforcers bringing their special weapons to bear because they have access to so many. Your platoons should be the foot sloggers who hold objectives :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

The Army Blog is now between Eldar and Tyranids.
Yes. I changed my mind about Eldar.


Daemons get a bad rap due to their randomness (which in all truth is giant disadvantage) however they can be very good if put together correctly.

Which still means nothing when Math-Hammer goes wonky - and it does.


it would be nice to see if we as a board (with you at the head of the army) could make them viable with some strategy and mathhammer :smalltongue: (and a lot of luck)

Math-Hammer (Laws Guidelines of Probability) and Luck are the same thing. :smallamused:

Before the first turn, divide your army in half. Half your army gets to be dropped on the first turn, and the other half gets the Reserves rule. You do not get to pick which half drops on the first turn. :smallfrown:

Basically, all you can do is double up on squads. That way, no matter which half comes down, you get what you want. This gets really boring. Especially as how Daemons are meant to have lots of different units. Your army eventually looks cookie-cut. :smallfrown:

Then the rest of your army comes trickles in via Reserves. Nothing will come down when you want it to. And nothing in the entire army gives bonuses to Reserve rolls either. You get what the dice let you have. Which is usually...Less...:smallfrown:

Then, the Deep Strike rules in general. Your melee units can't shoot. At all. Means you have to deploy them in cover the first turn they come down. Otherwise enjoy your Plasma Sandvich. Have fun scattering into terrain, or off the table. :smallfrown:

Unless you've got Icons. But, before that happens, you actually have to Deep Strike in the unit with the Icon. Which doesn't always work out so well. :smallannoyed: And, because the dice do hate you, the units that came down this turn don't work so well next to the unit already on the board with Icon.

No matter how good your list is on paper. Daemonic Assault and Deep Strike work via Math-Hammer. And your tactics will rarely work. Therefore, daemons are effectively unmasterable. Unless you master the laws of physics and demand that the Universe changes how dice work. :smallamused:


Daemons are a difficult army to play and one you should only play for novelty or masochism. Or because you are a fan of daemons. Chance can all too readily kick you in the teeth to an even greater extent than any other army.

...I may have to quote this for The Guide. Followed by a 1-Star.

...And Winterwind wants me to play Chaos Daemons. What did I do deserve your hatred? :smallconfused:


Originally posted by crazedloon
as far as the models themselves
*HQ Summary*

So...Your advice is to take three special characters as my HQ? :smalltongue:


Flamers, in my opinion the best choice for your elites. They do not care about your AV, and can kill any unit type (even tanks). They are fast with the best invulnerable of any of the elite choices which makes them able to survive (due to being able to take advantage of terrain for LoS and when shot at more likely to make the save).

Flamers, joined by a Herald of Tzeentch on Disc/Chariot, make a mess of people's armies. Sadly, this is pretty much the best unit in the Codex. :smallfrown:


if you know the sort of missions or opponents you will be playing it helps a lot

Same can be said of any army. But, the fact is that you don't (or shouldn't) know what your opponent is bringing. Given that I intend to take my 'blog-army' to a fairly large tournament, I kind of need it to be somewhat effective.
(Well, I don't need it to be effective...But, it'd be nice...)


Seekers have a rediculous number of attack with rending and as such can take down heavily armored opponents. They also are cav so they can move far easier from cover to cover. Only downside is the low S/T

The other downside is that they're nearly impossible to get. As they're not even available through Mail Order anymore. And they haven't been for like, a year.


Screamers are the fastest, have the best save and make awesome tank hunters (leaving the rest of your big hitters to worry about troops)

Yeah, in the (few) Tournament Lists that I've seen, two units are nearly always taken; Flamers and Screamers.

And if they're not in the list; I always have to ask them "Dude, where's your Flamers/Screamers?"
The reason that they don't take them usually boils down to a fluff thing. Which is dumb. Gimping yourself for fluff makes no sense. When you could just as easily make fluff as to why you only take the good units.

...Welcome to Stormwind (fallacy) (http://mtgsalvation.com/928-at-the-gathering-the-stormwind-fallacy-teflon-redux.html)...


The one half has heavy hitters who can sit back and hold a position until the other half DS while the other half has fast forces which can clear and scatter a good deal of the enemy before the other half DS with units who can finish the job all while being resilient due to good saves. Each half also have the screamers to deal with tanks which will cause problems.

The second half of the army does not really work well in the first few turns. This 'tactic' is useless if the dice don't come up right. As I said, the only - only - way to get what you want, is have a symmetrical army.


Scouts (x10) - 140pts
Combat Blades
drop pod - 35pt

First, I know everyone has already said that Drop Pods are useless for Scouts, since they can Infiltrate and Scout on the first turn anyway and get that first turn Assault if they're lucky. Which they can't do after Deep Striking from a Drop Pod.

Second; Scouts can't take Drop Pods in the first place. It's illegal to have. Therefore you have to get rid of it anyway. :smallbiggrin: ...Yes. It's a good thing.

Third; In low point games, Sniper Rifles are the best. Things. Ever. In large-point games, Sniper Rifles are the best. Things. Ever. Basically...What I'm saying is...Take Rifles. Or Bolters.

In my time of gaming with my Scouts and Bikes (and Assault Marines); Assault Scouts have fared the worst.


Something caught my eye earlier, though. Rokkit Launchas aren't Blast weapons, according to the codex.

Rokkit Launchas are not Blast Weapons. Missile Launchers, can be. Rokkits only have the one firing mode. If Rokkits could switch to Blast, there'd be no reason to take Big Shootas ever.


I'm still wondering if you can convert a Biker Nob into a Mad Dok, as well as what 'Eavy Armor does to a Nob Biker.

You can.
And I've confirmed (by GW Staff) that 'Eavy Armour + Bike does nothing. Don't do it. Save points.

[Lycan 01]

Thanks Cheesegear. :smallsmile:

And my SM friend finally conceeded that the Panther as a Looted Wagon was okay. He also said that since I'm paying so many points for them, I could run the Bikers as Nob Bikers even if they don't have the right sized torsos. :smalltongue:


So, Cheesegear, its either Eldar or Tyranids?

I vote Tyranids. You keep mentioning an All-Warrior Army. I want to see if you can pull it off. :smallamused:

[Cheesegear]

So, Cheesegear, its either Eldar or Tyranids?

It's anything. I've got until March 1st February 28th to decide. I've always wanted to make a Black Templars army. But, 'Marines is Marines' and I'd like to stay away from them for now.

Sisters are out. Got 'em.

I could do Orks...Y'Know? Show you how it's done. :smalltongue:
...But, I can guarantee as an AoBR (cheap-to-start) army, these guys will be already taken.

I was looking at Chaos Daemons. I'd like to do an army that relies on tactics and many pretty units as much as CDs do, without being gimped like CDs. Enter stage left; Eldar. Except lots of people play Eldar, and there's really no 'unique' way to play Eldar except to play a lot of Jetbikes (Saim-Hann). And fielding an Alaitoc army would be fun.

There's a really cool Eldar army on page 226-7 of the BBB combining Eldar and Woof Elf parts which I'd like to do for myself at some point. There's also some cool conversions done with Wood Elf and Imperial Guard parts for those of you who are looking to do a Sniper-Guard army.
Also, how are people's experiences with/against Storm Guardians?

You guys don't want me to field an Eldar Jetbike army do you? ...No...DO YOU!?

Grey Knights would be very pretty for you guys. But, tiresome and boring for me. And, sorry, I don't love you guys that much. :smalleek:

Chaos Marines...Is Marines. I have my 3.5ed Word Bearers (which I have never used post-4th). But, it'd be nice to cross over into Night Lords and use some of the really cool conversion packs (yes, I use Mail Order, a lot).

Necrons I'd like to do too...One day...

Okay guys, final descisions and I'm counting votes now. I'll put a table or something in my sig.

Tyranid Warrior-Army
Alaitoc Eldar (woefully ripping from the BBB pg 226-227. Apologies to those with the AoBR book)
Saim-Hann Eldar. JETBIKES FOR THE BIKER THRONE!
Tau Devilfish Army
Night Lords Chaos Space Marines


I vote Tyranids. You keep mentioning an All-Warrior Army. I want to see if you can pull it off. :smallamused:

Warrior-Genus army.

HQ; Warrior Alpha (and/or Parasite of Mortrex)
Elites; Lictors/Deathleaper*, Zoanthopes and Hive Guard (I need the anti-Tank), and are you really going to tell me an Elite Swarm like this isn't going to have Hive Guard? :smallyuk:
Troops; All Warriors. All the time. Maybe a unit or two of Genestealers. Because...Infiltrating Troops...Yeah.
Fast Attack; Raveners and Shrikes. A unit of Spore Mines...'Cause.
Heavy Support; ???

*If Pheramone Trail works the way I think it does; Mawlocs are awesome. Also, I just want to make Deathleaper getting the drop on Sly Marbo. :smallcool:

[Lycan 01]

So its between those four, huh? You don't want to give Necrons a try? :smalltongue:


Hm. This is a toughie. Which one would you feel most comfortable with, and which one to you know the most about? :smallconfused:

[IthilanorStPete]

There's no Warrior Alpha; perhaps you mean Tyranid Prime? And yeah, looks like Pheromone Trail should work with Mawlocs.

[Cheesegear]

So its between those four, huh? You don't want to give Necrons a try? :smalltongue:

Not really. It has the same problem as Grey Knights. All the units are pretty much exactly the same.

Ooops. I meant to put in Night Lords CSM. Edited.


Hm. This is a toughie. Which one would you feel most comfortable with, and which one to you know the most about? :smallconfused:

I know about them all except Tau. This'd be a learning experience as this is the perfect opportunity to start an army I've never played before. Chaos Marines I've recently (in the last month or so) got the Codex, but am yet to play a game with my old Word Bearers (which suck now).


There's no Warrior Alpha; perhaps you mean Tyranid Prime?

That is what I mean. Too much DoW II for me. :smalltongue:
To be fair, perhaps you can tell me what the Tyranid Prime's special ability is called? :smallwink:

[IthilanorStPete]

Alpha...Warrior...shaddap. :smallwink:

[One Step Two]

C'mon cheese, Saim-Hann Eldar, you know you want to. Jetbikes. They're bikes, that even after making their normal 12" move can move 6" in the assault phase.

You can even mount a farseer on a bike to follow a unit inside a wave-serpent to keep them fortune'd before having them hit enemy units with doooom!

[Winterwind]

Before the first turn, divide your army in half. Half your army gets to be dropped on the first turn, and the other half gets the Reserves rule. You do not get to pick which half drops on the first turn. :smallfrown:Well, you do get to pick which half comes down first with twice the probability than the other. That's... something, right? :smalltongue:


...And Winterwind wants me to play Chaos Daemons. What did I do deserve your hatred? :smallconfused:Awww, c'mon, that's not fair! :smallfrown:
I very explicitly stated that my vote goes to them only if you would enjoy collecting and playing them! :smalltongue:


Tyranid Warrior-Army
Alaitoc Eldar (woefully ripping from the BBB pg 226-227. Apologies to those with the AoBR book)
Saim-Hann Eldar. JETBIKES FOR THE BIKER THRONE!
Tau Devilfish Army
Night Lords Chaos Space MarinesHmmm... amongst these, I think I'll vote for Alaitoc Eldar. Mostly, because they are what I have been thinking about collecting myself, should I ever tire of CSM, and I'd gladly see them in action. Also, Pathfinders are awesome and, as you said yourself, Sniper Rifles are the Best Thing Ever. (and Saim-Hann, c'mon, do you really want to reproduce the same army list you already use with your Space Marines with every single other codex out there? :smalltongue:)

Oh, and speaking of that 'Alpha Warrior', interestingly that's exactly what the Tyranid Prime is called in the German codex...

[Cheesegear]

Saim-Hann, c'mon, do you really want to reproduce the same army list [...] with every single other codex out there?

...Yyyeees? :smallconfused:


Oh, and speaking of that 'Alpha Warrior', interestingly that's exactly what the Tyranid Prime is called in the German codex...

I prefer Alpha Warrior. It's what it's called in DoW II. Also 'Tyranid Prime' doesn't really mean anything. If I would guess; I'd say a Tyranid Prime was a Hive Tyrant. Doesn't that make sense to you?

Alpha Warrior means Hardcore Warrior. And actually tells me what it is. Even more annoying is that the 'Tyranid Prime' has a special ability called 'Alpha Warrior'. Meh. I prefer to call it Alpha Warrior. Tyranid Prime sounds dumb. :smallsigh:

[Winterwind]

...Yyyeees? :smallconfused:Oh, you're incorrigible. :smallbiggrin:

Consider this a compliment. ;)


I prefer Alpha Warrior. It's what it's called in DoW II. Also 'Tyranid Prime' doesn't really mean anything. If I would guess; I'd say a Tyranid Prime was a Hive Tyrant. Doesn't that make sense to you?Or a Norn Queen. Some sort of progenitor, at any rate.

[One Step Two]

Also Re: Alaitoc Craftworld Army

Without the special rules from the last codex (Ranger Disruption Table, superb infriltraitors, world weary etc), all you have is a standard eldar army where to take rangers and pathfinders as your troops choices, without the added benefit of being able to take 2 units of rangers that dont count towards your maximum troops choice.

However you do get some cool conversions in where you model wraithlords into sniper poses so they match your so-called stealthy army.

[Arcanoi]

Daemons come with a few crippling flaws out of their basic design that makes them extremely uncompetitive.

1) They scatter, hard. Daemons (As the denizens of the Warp they are) should only scatter 1d2 or 1d3.

2) Daemons cannot assault as they deepstrike. This is crippling, as it effectively means that half your army is not in the battle for... most of the game.

3) They deepstrike just like everyone else. They need a boost, perhaps a start of +1 on the rolls.

4) KoS, Daemonettes and Fiends are the only models with Fleet. Bloodthirsters and Hounds need this to be effective.

That being said, I enjoy the randomness. Once played a game where I made every single reserves roll on the first turn I rolled. They're not competitive, and I lose a lot more games than I win, but I never leave the table wishing I hadn't brought my Chaos Daemons.

Also note, the inanity of their deployment is most what makes the Chaos Daemons troops so 'ineffective'. The rest is their ridiculous point/Sv ratio that makes them so vulnerable to massed Dakka.

-Bloodthirsters do Okay if you treat them like Burna Boyz without the Template option (Here's where Fleet would be nice).

-Daemonettes are okay for horde-shredding and are slightly better than MEqs if they can get into CC with Guardsmen and Fire Warriors.

-I've always found Plaguebearers to be horribly weak versions of Plague Marines with almost no redeeming qualities whatsoever. They dye slightly slower to Guard, but beyond that, are less than half as effective once they get into CC.

-Soul Grinders are fun, but I like taking Daemon Princes at low points.

[EleventhHour]

Warrior-Genus army.

HQ; Warrior Alpha (and/or Parasite of Mortrex)
Elites; Lictors/Deathleaper*, Zoanthopes and Hive Guard (I need the anti-Tank), and are you really going to tell me an Elite Swarm like this isn't going to have Hive Guard? :smallyuk:
Troops; All Warriors. All the time. Maybe a unit or two of Genestealers. Because...Infiltrating Troops...Yeah.
Fast Attack; Raveners and Shrikes. A unit of Spore Mines...'Cause.
Heavy Support; ???

*If Pheramone Trail works the way I think it does; Mawlocs are awesome. Also, I just want to make Deathleaper getting the drop on Sly Marbo. :smallcool:

Mawlocs : Pretty cool.

You know what turned out about 100x better? Doom of Malankai. I killed (almost) an entire Guard army (even one of the Lemas Russ!) with one 90 point model. ...It is sort of his fault for rolling terribly, but the thing is under pointed by at least thrice.

10 Wounds, Strength 10 in Assault, Strength 10 AP 2 Large Blast, 3+ Invuln. And it's effect of causing Moral Tests to gain more wounds happens in your, and your enemies shooting phases. Drop it in the middle of an army of infantry, and watch them fall apart.

(Watch out for Instant Death weapons. It's only T4. I got lucky and made all but one save from the entire armies' weapons. ...and that was a lasgun. :smallbiggrin: )

[Winterwind]

Mawlocs are pretty cool, but they are competing for the slot with Trygons (right? I'm away from my codex right now)... which I personally find are one of the most awesome looking models ever and which seem even better to me. Especially the Alpha Trygon (or is it Trygon Prime in English?), which is a rather cheap update, too, for what it does.

Damn, just looking at Trygons makes me want to collect a Tyranid... no! Bad! Bad Winter! Bad! :smalltongue:

[Oslecamo]

Daemons come with a few crippling flaws out of their basic design that makes them extremely uncompetitive.

1) They scatter, hard. Daemons (As the denizens of the Warp they are) should only scatter 1d2 or 1d3.


Actualy, fluff wise, the main reason why demons haven't overrun the material plane it's that they can't easily jump in here whitout some mortal giving them an hand to open a stable portal, or a chaos icon, or let himself be possessed. So there's no fluff reason why they should have a scatter advantage. They have as much hard time as geting in/out of the warp as everybody else. They just survive better inside the warp.

Just a minor nitpick.

And yes, the Doom of Malakai fully deserves it's name and will roll over pretty much anything for a pretty low price unless your oponent has some anti-inv save weapon, wich are pretty rare.

[Kzickas]

new and saner 650 pts space marine list


hq:
space marine chaplain w/jump pack 115pts

troops:
5 scouts w/sniper rifles 75pts
10 space marines, flamer, missile launcher, seargent w/powerfist 195pts
razorback w/ extra armor 55pts

fast attack:
10 assult marines seargent w/power weapon, melta bombs 210pts


also, does liturgies of battle work when using granades against vehicles?

[Archetype-]

Saim-Hann Eldar. JETBIKES FOR THE BIKER THRONE!

This. The (eight out of five) voices in my head and I all vote for this. The galaxy needs more bikes. MOAR BIEKZ!!

I had a really crazy thought. In order to inject a little variety into the Spamalot list found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7863453&postcount=8), I could drop one of the 'Hounds, one of the Veteran squads, and a Veteran squad's Chimera for a couple teams of Storm Troopers. Then swap out the other 'Hound for a Valkyrie with dual multiple rocket pods for the Veterans to fly around in. This way I can get some variety in the force while keeping both my mobility and aggressiveness.

Also, it'll give me a reason to use some of the Storm Troopers I have chillin'.

-Archetype

[evisiron]

Tyranid Warrior-Army


My vote (again)!

[MountainKing]

So. Last night I worked up an Ork list... 2000 pts, spent over half of that on one squad. Nobs lead by a Warboss, all on bikes, with a Painboy, lots of Power Klaw and twin-linked shoota action all around... I'm a horrible person, aren't I? :smallbiggrin:

Legitimately, the list is... *short*. It packs a grand total of 62 units, one of which is a Battlewagon. Two HQs (I couldn't resist the Big Mek with his incredible awesome hilarious gun), two Troops, one Fast Attack, and one Heavy Support. For a 2k pts Ork army, it has WAY too few bodies, but... I'm totally okay with that. :smallbiggrin: Mostly, I just want to use the Big Mek; everything else is there because it's dead killy. For the curious:


HQ:
Warboss (Bike, Power Klaw, TL Shoota, Cybork Body, Attack Squig, I think some other stuff?)
Big Mek (Power Klaw, Mek Tools, "The Awesome Gun")

Troops:
Nobz x10 (okay, x9 and a Painboy. Bikes, Power Klaws, shootas (MAY be TL, can't remember), Cybork Bodies, Waaaagh! Banner, Grot Orderly (he rides b***h with the Painboy :smallbiggrin:))

'Ard Boy Shootas x30 (x29 Boyz, x1 Nob with a Power Klaw and Shoota, 26 Shootas, three Big Shootas, all 'Ard)

Elites:
Lootas x15 (x12 with Deffguns, x3 Meks with Kustom Mega-Blasters)

Fast Attack:
Dethkoptas x4 (all with TL Rokkit Launcha upgrades)

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon (Red Paint, x2 Big Shoota, x2 Rokkit Launcha, Zzap Gun, Grot Riggers, 'Ard Kase... and pretty sure that's it)


Will it win anything? No, probably not. Will it be a larf? By Gork'n Mork YES. :smallbiggrin:

[IthilanorStPete]

Wait, why do the Nob Bikers have shootas? Their bikes have TL dakkaguns.

[MountainKing]

Because the Codex didn't say that Bikes take away your weapons? :smallconfused: In fact, quite the opposite, it said that many Ork bikers will ride without holding the handlebars because they can fight more that way.

[crazedloon]

So. Last night I worked up an Ork list... 2000 pts, spent over half of that on one squad. Nobs lead by a Warboss, all on bikes, with a Painboy, lots of Power Klaw and twin-linked shoota action all around... I'm a horrible person, aren't I? :smallbiggrin:

Legitimately, the list is... *short*. It packs a grand total of 62 units, one of which is a Battlewagon. Two HQs (I couldn't resist the Big Mek with his incredible awesome hilarious gun), two Troops, one Fast Attack, and one Heavy Support. For a 2k pts Ork army, it has WAY too few bodies, but... I'm totally okay with that. :smallbiggrin: Mostly, I just want to use the Big Mek; everything else is there because it's dead killy. For the curious:


HQ:
Warboss (Bike, Power Klaw, TL Shoota, Cybork Body, Attack Squig, I think some other stuff?)
Big Mek (Power Klaw, Mek Tools, "The Awesome Gun")

Troops:
Nobz x10 (okay, x9 and a Painboy. Bikes, Power Klaws, shootas (MAY be TL, can't remember), Cybork Bodies, Waaaagh! Banner, Grot Orderly (he rides b***h with the Painboy :smallbiggrin:))

'Ard Boy Shootas x30 (x29 Boyz, x1 Nob with a Power Klaw and Shoota, 26 Shootas, three Big Shootas, all 'Ard)

Elites:
Lootas x15 (x12 with Deffguns, x3 Meks with Kustom Mega-Blasters)

Fast Attack:
Dethkoptas x4 (all with TL Rokkit Launcha upgrades)

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon (Red Paint, x2 Big Shoota, x2 Rokkit Launcha, Zzap Gun, Grot Riggers, 'Ard Kase... and pretty sure that's it)


Will it win anything? No, probably not. Will it be a larf? By Gork'n Mork YES. :smallbiggrin:

as mentioned dropped the shootas on the bobs there bikes have better guns (for freeish) the bikes guns have 3 shots at str 5 ap 5 at the same range and they are twinlinked for free
also I would not make the shootas hardboyz and just grab more boyz,

in an army where the majority of your points are in 1 squad you want to have bodys to fill in the gaps and with the dropped shootas on the nobz and the dropped ard armor you should be able to double the number of bodies you have


Also cheese my vote is still for daemons :smalltongue:
but from the list you posted I would suggest Tau (particularly if you have never played them before) as they have a nice variety of models which can be fun to model and they are a good army to focus on tactics because they have a glaring weekness (i.e.close combat) which can be overcome with good tactics/

[Winterwind]

Also cheese my vote is still for daemons :smalltongue: For the record, if they were still on the list, they would be getting my vote, too. :smallcool:

[Kzickas]

I too would vote for tau

[Lycan 01]

So. Last night I worked up an Ork list... 2000 pts, spent over half of that on one squad. Nobs lead by a Warboss, all on bikes, with a Painboy, lots of Power Klaw and twin-linked shoota action all around... I'm a horrible person, aren't I? :smallbiggrin:

Legitimately, the list is... *short*. It packs a grand total of 62 units, one of which is a Battlewagon. Two HQs (I couldn't resist the Big Mek with his incredible awesome hilarious gun), two Troops, one Fast Attack, and one Heavy Support. For a 2k pts Ork army, it has WAY too few bodies, but... I'm totally okay with that. :smallbiggrin: Mostly, I just want to use the Big Mek; everything else is there because it's dead killy. For the curious:


HQ:
Warboss (Bike, Power Klaw, TL Shoota, Cybork Body, Attack Squig, I think some other stuff?)
Big Mek (Power Klaw, Mek Tools, "The Awesome Gun")

Troops:
Nobz x10 (okay, x9 and a Painboy. Bikes, Power Klaws, shootas (MAY be TL, can't remember), Cybork Bodies, Waaaagh! Banner, Grot Orderly (he rides b***h with the Painboy :smallbiggrin:))

'Ard Boy Shootas x30 (x29 Boyz, x1 Nob with a Power Klaw and Shoota, 26 Shootas, three Big Shootas, all 'Ard)

Elites:
Lootas x15 (x12 with Deffguns, x3 Meks with Kustom Mega-Blasters)

Fast Attack:
Dethkoptas x4 (all with TL Rokkit Launcha upgrades)

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon (Red Paint, x2 Big Shoota, x2 Rokkit Launcha, Zzap Gun, Grot Riggers, 'Ard Kase... and pretty sure that's it)


Will it win anything? No, probably not. Will it be a larf? By Gork'n Mork YES. :smallbiggrin:



I agree with the other guys. Drop all the TL shootas from your Warboss and Nobs. The Dakkaguns on their bikes are S5, AP5, have 3 shots, and they're Twin-Linked. You'll not only be getting a better weapon for free, but now you have enough points for almost 10 more Boyz.

Speaking of Boyz, it may be a good idea to split up and unarmor some of those Boyz. A squad of 30 Boyz is a massive target, and they're going to get shot to pieces a lot quicker than you'd like, even with 'Ard Armor. One Large Blast with an AP of 4 or 3, and you just lost the majority of your army. Assaulting will be awkward and difficult, too, due to the sheer bulk of your squad. So, you could split the squad into 20 'Ard Boyz and 10 regular boyz, and then use the points left over from the TL shootas and the removed 'Ard Armour to either buy about 15 more Boyz, or a PK Nob and as many more Boyz as you can.

So yeah, ditch the TL Shootas, split your Boyz up, and put more bodies on the field. You should end up with either 20 'Ard Boyz and 25-ish regular boyz, or 20 'Ard Boyz and 15-ish regular Boyz with a PK Nob.


But that's just my advice. And I'm mostly using what I've learned from the Masters in this thread. :smallwink:

[MountainKing]

As for all the advice: I appreciate it, but I didn't really need any of it. I like the list pretty much as it is, because its sole purpose is so I can take a Big Mek out for a spin. The rest is just an exercise in pouring points into units because I can. :smallwink: Thank you all anyway; if I decide to actually be serious about playing this list, I'll take your advice into consideration.

[Voidhawk]

Hmm... which army to foist off on Cheesegear...decisions, decisions... :smalltongue:

I place a vote for Tau, as you haven't played them before (and isn't this what this is about?), Eldar are... Eldar, and Tyranids will likely be over represented at the tournament already. Plus I've got friends who do play them, who would love to both give and recieve advice on using them effectively.

As a side question; I've always been interested in the 'Crons, as when I was getting into the hobby it was a toss up between them, Tau and 'Nids which I'd go for (went with 'Nids for the stabby-stabby-stabby. :smallamused:), and I was recently flicking through the codex again, thinking about armies. My question is: how many actual Necrons would be good to have on the board in 1000 or 2000pt games, to avoid Phase Out?
I can theorise and math-hammer it all I like, I've no actual playing experience with them (or even against them), and can't really work out how many bodies I'd need before I can start looking at the more interesting stuff.

We play semi-casually here: no real cheese or extreme armies used (I recently promised to bring the Doom of Malen'tai only every few games, or if I haven't won in a while :smalltongue:), but at the same time you'll feel it if you make bad choices. I'd quite like an army that isn't just WARRIORS, but at the same time won't disappear into the ether at the first sign of trouble.

[Kzickas]

how's this for 750 pts chaos space marines?


daemon prince, mark of slaanesh, lash of submission 135pts
8 chaos space marines, Aspiring champion w/powerfist, IoCG 170pts
5 noise marines, 4x sonic blasters blastmaster, nc w/doom siren 145pts
rhinos w/extra armor 50pts
10 summoned daemons 130pts
5 chaos raptors w/2 melta guns 120pts

[Winterwind]

(keep in mind I'm fairly inexperienced myself)

Personally, I think I'd get rid of the Daemons and buff the other squads more in turn. For these 130 points, you could get the CSM squad to ten, give them two plasmaguns, upgrade their icon to one of Slaanesh, give the Noise Champion a powerweapon, add a sixth Noise Marine with Sonic Blaster, and give the Raptors an icon of Slaanesh or bump them to six. For example.

Or, if you don't care about the army no longer being pure Slaanesh then, you could get a squad of five Plague Marines with a plasmagun.

Both would be more effective, in my humble opinion. Especially as you have only a single icon to strike the Daemons at in your list, thus greatly limiting their use.

[crazedloon]

how's this for 750 pts chaos space marines?


daemon prince, mark of slaanesh, lash of submission 135pts
8 chaos space marines, Aspiring champion w/powerfist, IoCG 170pts
5 noise marines, 4x sonic blasters blastmaster, nc w/doom siren 145pts
rhinos w/extra armor 50pts
10 summoned daemons 130pts
5 chaos raptors w/2 melta guns 120pts


I would drop the summoned daemons and bump the raptors to 10 man squad and add wings to your prince This gives you a great means of tank hunting as well as getting your Prince in advantageous positions.

[Lycan 01]

Indeed, drop the Demons. They have to Deep Strike in, so for the first round of the game you'll only have those 3 small squads. By the time the Demons teleport in, they'll be the only squad left, worst case scenario. :smalleek:



(Btw, could you guys check the 40K fluff thread, please? I'm doing research for a Space Marines freeform game, and I need a bit more info before I can start it. You're all invited to join, by the way... :smallwink:)

[Arcanoi]

how's this for 750 pts chaos space marines?


daemon prince, mark of slaanesh, lash of submission 135pts
8 chaos space marines, Aspiring champion w/powerfist, IoCG 170pts
5 noise marines, 4x sonic blasters blastmaster, nc w/doom siren 145pts
rhinos w/extra armor 50pts
10 summoned daemons 130pts
5 chaos raptors w/2 melta guns 120pts


I'm pretty sure you have the points wrong on those Noise Marines. 3 marines with Sonic Blasters, one with a Blastmaster, and a Champ with a Doom Siren should be 180 or 185 points.

[Cheesegear]

Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 3
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 2
Tau | Devilfish | 4
Tyranids | Warriors | 3
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

Daemons are not on the list. I just can't make them work; Because they don't. Voting closes on the 28th. Feel free to change your vote if you want to.


My question is: how many actual Necrons would be good to have on the board in 1000 or 2000pt games, to avoid Phase Out?

In 1000 points, my friend's competitive list is a ~200 point Destroyer Lord, a Tomb Spyder and about ~750 points worth of Warriors. Calculator says around 40 Warriors (you can get 36 pretty easily, fill the spare points with Scarabs that you get). You could swap some of those out for Flayed Ones, which are the exact same points cost.

In 2000 points, he plays with ~1000 points worth of Warriors and Flayed Ones. I think it's between 50 and 60. He carts a lot of Troops for a Necron army. He needs it.


I'd quite like an army that isn't just WARRIORS, but at the same time won't disappear into the ether at the first sign of trouble.

...Bad news for you; Warriors are where it's at. :smallfrown:
Flayed Ones too. But, they're not Troops.

If you're thinking of buying the Battleforce; Don't. 3 Boxes of Warriors are the same price. And probably more useful.

[Lycan 01]

Aw... Tyranids get no love. :smallfrown:

I'm staying with Tyranid Warrior army, just in case other people see the potential awesomeness. There will be other 'Nid players, sure, but how many will be mostly Warrior class units? :smallamused:

[Arcanoi]

I vote Tyrannids, if you didn't already tally my vote.

[Thatguyoverther]

I had a really crazy thought. In order to inject a little variety into the Spamalot list found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7863453&postcount=8), I could drop one of the 'Hounds, one of the Veteran squads, and a Veteran squad's Chimera for a couple teams of Storm Troopers. Then swap out the other 'Hound for a Valkyrie with dual multiple rocket pods for the Veterans to fly around in. This way I can get some variety in the force while keeping both my mobility and aggressiveness.

Also, it'll give me a reason to use some of the Storm Troopers I have chillin'.

-Archetype

Don't do it!

Valkyries are pretty cool but don't grab the stormtroopers. I think they're by far the worst option in the codex. They're 16pts a model! They cost the same amount as a space marine, and won't be able to to nearly as well. The ap3 lasgun is cool but definitely not worth the cost.

Also I vote for Tyranids.

[Cheesegear]

Aw... Tyranids get no love. :smallfrown:

I'm actually surprised about the Tau love. Because you guys appear to want me to learn something about the game.

Unlike Saim-Hann where I wont learn a thing. And recreate my army of Land Speeders and Bikes with Vypers and Jetbikes. :smallamused:
...But, if you guys want to enable my Bike Addiction...I wont stop you...Enablers.

"Hey, what army did you bring?"
"The Same." Opponent cries as I bring out my army that's exactly the same as my Marine Biker Army of Doom. "HA!"
I start making the 'Nnnnnn' sound as I try to keep from laughing...Get it?
...Same...HA!...Nnnnn...

Alaitoc I'm unsure what I'll learn. Since Rangers are not SM Scouts, and Rangers are expensive. I'll make some fun conversions though. My only fear is that if you've seen the army in the BBB (pg 226-7), you've pretty much seen all the cool conversions I plan on doing. :smalleek:

Tyranid Warriors; I think it's a fun idea (and one I'll start someday). It's like my Terminator army. But, at the same time, not even close.

Chaos Space Marines; I probably wont learn anything here either. 'Marines is Marines' as they say. Pretty much like Space Marines, except I'm forced to use 'Tactical' Squads and no Scouts. And without Combat Tactics or ATSKNF. And Chaos Bikers are turds.
(The only Bikes in the game I don't like)


I vote Tyrannids, if you didn't already tally my vote.

I'm pretty sure your vote had come before I set down my lists. The 5 lists are set in stone, and those are the armies I will take. No 'maybe some Grey Knights', or 'how do people like Daemons?'.

That's it. And now people are making their informed choices.

[Lycan 01]

Again, Tyranids. :smalltongue:

You've been mentioning the idea for weeks, if not months, and its obviously something you'd enjoy. You're going to do it eventually, anyway. This is the perfect opportunity to give it a try and prove how awesome an idea it is. :smallbiggrin:

Plus, it'll be great when everyone hears you're playing 'Nids, and expect nothing but swarms or MCs. Then you whip out the warriors, and they're just like :smalleek: and scramble to fix their army list. Heh heh heh...

[Oslecamo]

Chaos Space Marines; I probably wont learn anything here either. 'Marines is Marines' as they say. Pretty much like Space Marines, except I'm forced to use 'Tactical' Squads and no Scouts. And without Combat Tactics or ATSKNF. And Chaos Bikers are turds.

Those "tactical" squads are much cheaper than spech merines squads, as you pay only 15 points per model and aren't forced to pick a sergeantaspiring champion. And who needs tactics/ATSKNF when you've fot LD9 base?

Also, lost and damned rules allows you for your own cultists to make up for the lack of scouts.

[Closet_Skeleton]

...

...tyranid bikers?

...

Forget it.

[Cheesegear]

Also, lost and damned rules allows you for your own cultists to make up for the lack of scouts.

Lost and the Damned? You mean the Eye of Terror rules? They're illegal.


...

...tyranid bikers?

...

Forget it.

...But now I can't forget it...And I must do one.

[Archetype-]

Don't do it!

Valkyries are pretty cool but don't grab the stormtroopers. I think they're by far the worst option in the codex. They're 16pts a model! They cost the same amount as a space marine, and won't be able to to nearly as well. The ap3 lasgun is cool but definitely not worth the cost.

Well, of the four unnamed Elites, they'd be the ones I actually went with. I dislike the Psykers Battle Squad in their concept, and my boys (fluffwise) strongly dislike psykers. Ogryns are just way too expensive for what they do, both in points and monetary cost. And Ratlings... I'm sorry, but I don't need a bunch of Frodo-wannabes gumming up my tracks.

Also, I've had about 20 Storm Trooper models (the Kasrkin ones) since before the new codex came out. I'd like to put them to use eventually, if only in larger games (such as their Apocalypse formation).

I can't think of anything else right now... My chicken dinner's almost done.

-Archetype

[tribble]

Those "tactical" squads are much cheaper than spech merines squads, as you pay only 15 points per model and aren't forced to pick a sergeantaspiring champion. And who needs tactics/ATSKNF when you've fot LD9 base?

Also, lost and damned rules allows you for your own cultists to make up for the lack of scouts.

aren't vanilla marines 15 points?:smallconfused:

And anyway, Chosen of Chaos infiltrate and have spessmeheren armor. much better than pansy 50/50 saving scouts.

[MountainKing]

Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 2
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 2
Tau | Devilfish | 3
Tyranids | Warriors | 3
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0



Put up one more vote for Tau. I don't remember if I voted already or not, but Tau are fun stuff. Plus, as you deploy your 'fish you could always break into song. :smallbiggrin: I'm not sure quite what with, but, you could.

Oh! Get a decked out Hammerhead and paint it all white, and start all your battles by snarling "Split your lungs with blood and thunder / When you see the white whale..." :smallamused:

[Ninja Chocobo]

Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 2

Votin' for this, if only because my friend plays them and I want to know what I need to discourage him from taking.

[Kzickas]

aren't vanilla marines 15 points?:smallconfused:

And anyway, Chosen of Chaos infiltrate and have spessmeheren armor. much better than pansy 50/50 saving scouts.

nope, normal marines are 16

[Cheesegear]

nope, normal marines are 16

The first 5 are 15.

5x15 = 75. +15 (Segeant) = 90 for 4 Marines + Sergeant. Then 16 points for everyone after that.

CSMs are 'cheap' in the fact that they don't need to take an Aspiring Champion if you don't want one. And you don't need to take ten-man squads to take Special Weapons.
Although, Chaos Marines lose out on the ability to take Razorbacks, and don't get Combat Squads. But, that's okay, since ten-man squads can take dual special weapons.


Originally posted by tribble
And anyway, Chosen of Chaos infiltrate and have spessmeheren armor. much better than pansy 50/50 saving scouts.

But, Scouts are Troops (Infiltrating/Outflanking Troops are awesome), cheaper, and can take Rifles. Have Scout, and Move Through Cover. Combat Squads (which is actually useful for Scouts) and ATSKNF and Combat Tactics. And can get Stealth on top, if you want them to cost as much as Chosen.

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 3
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 2
Tau | Devilfish | 6
Tyranids | Warriors | 3
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

Heh. Nobody wants me to play Chaos. Interesting. :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

Lost and the Damned? You mean the Eye of Terror rules? They're illegal.

They don't really require that much adjustment to get them functioning again- just clarifying that leader upgrades for, say, Traitors, come from the leader upgrades available to Chaos Space Marine Squad leaders, and for Aspiring Champions, from the Chaos Lord upgrades.

Alternatively, there are the Siege of Vraks lists- which fall somewhere between ordinary Guard, and Lost & the Damned.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

I vote for Tau as the damn devilfish/pirhana melee shield is fun to use (especially with flechettes) - if you do it right you end up slaughtering MEQ's (as they don't have enough separate units, or if they do the units are too small).
GEQ's are simple to deal with in comparison

Oh, and kroot are disturbingly good so long as you keep them in cover - +2 points from guard for bolters and 2 hand weapons at str4. You actually get more firepower for your points than from firewarriors (but lose the devilfishery)

[Cheesegear]

They don't really require that much adjustment to get them functioning again- just clarifying that leader upgrades for, say, Traitors, come from the leader upgrades available to Chaos Space Marine Squad leaders, and for Aspiring Champions, from the Chaos Lord upgrades.

Alternatively, there are the Siege of Vraks lists- which fall somewhere between ordinary Guard, and Lost & the Damned.

Except I need to be tournament legal.
And, Imperial Armour lists are rarely allowed.

[Trixie]

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 3
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 2
Tau | Devilfish | 4
Tyranids | Warriors | 3
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

Heh. Nobody wants me to play Chaos. Interesting. :smallamused:

I think that's more no love for Night Lords, that no Chaos.

Oh, and I'll vote Tau, too. That would be the best from the worst :smalltongue:


And, Imperial Armour lists are rarely allowed.

Mind if I ask why? :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Mind if I ask why? :smalltongue:

*Shrug* I don't know. Ask G-Dub Tournament organisers. I think the reason is that (usually) most people - staff included - don't have access to Imperial Armour books.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Oh yes - re my first Nid list I posted I have another one for review.
It is designed to deny the enemy anti-tank any targets thus rendering a largish part of their force useless.
The warriors are valid targets for AT but they will be the ones advancing behind the horde thus having cover saves (and they're dirt cheap synapse).

I may have put too much synapse in at the expense of hordiness - would like your opinions and critiques.

I am aware that the list is not particularly mobile, it aims to make up for that with bodies and dangerous units everywhere on the board so if you are going to comment on lack of mobility bear that in mind.

Thanks

[edit:] ^^ oops forgot to post it

1500pts
HQ
Tyranid prime, Bonesword, Lashwhip, Rending claws, Adrenal glands
Tyranid prime, Bonesword, Lashwhip, Rending claws, Adrenal glands
Troops
5 Warriors, Scything talons, Rending claws, 1 Barbed strangler
5 Warriors, Scything talons, Rending claws, 1 Barbed strangler
20 Termagaunts, Toxin sacs
20 Termagaunts, Toxin sacs
20 Hormagaunts
20 Hormagaunts
Elites
3 Zoanthrope
3 Zoanthrope
Doom of Malan’tai in Mycetic spore

1500pts

[Closet_Skeleton]

So, I played in a store vs store pseudo-tournament today. Our store lost around 14 battles to 23. I won once, lost once and drew once, having no effect on the score what so ever.

First Battle - Blood Angels

We rolled Dawn of War deployment, massively favouring me. One unit of genestealers outflanker into his assault marines and librarian on turn 2, kill all but 1 of the assault marines and then ended up tied up by the librarian for 3 turns. But another unit of genestealers took the nearby objective and with 3/4 of the board mine it didn't matter that his deathcompany butched unit after unit.

Result - victory for tyranids

Second Battle - Eldar

He had a horrible 15 rangers, 3 wraithlords, Eldrad in a seer council and avatar list. He basically slaughtered me. I also deployed my forces spread out while he used Eldrad's power to redeploy them all on one side. I almost won through seer coincidence and objectives but I the random game length roel didn't favour me, allowing him to kill all my units. The mission also meant we only deployed heavy support and troops, massively favouring him.

Result - Victory for the Eldar

Third Battle - Chaos (nurgle)

Lots of people died but nobody got to take or contest any objectives of anyone. His defiler managed to kill a hive tyrant, kill one unit of genestealers and surive and break another, all without dying. My Raverners, zoanthropes and warriors were essentially useless. Old One Eye managed to kill a unit of plague marines and eat a land raider while the trygon ate a vindicator before tyhpus and his terminators killed both.

Result - Draw

[Closet_Skeleton]

I may have put too much synapse in at the expense of hordiness - would like your opinions and critiques.

Swapping one zoanthrope unit for hive guard could give you more variety, since hive guard and zoanthropes are about equal in average effectiveness but slightly better in slightly differant areas.

Changing your zoanthropes to 3 units of 2 could help in some games.

Rending claws and boneswords aren't the best combination and you seem to be relying on rending and adrenal glands to hurt tanks. I personally think it's not reliable enough to spend the points on.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Swapping one zoanthrope unit for hive guard could give you more variety, since hive guard and zoanthropes are about equal in average effectiveness but slightly better in slightly differant areas.

Changing your zoanthropes to 3 units of 2 could help in some games.


I have 3 Elite choices so can't change unit size and anyway - got to remember killpoints

Regarding swapping one squad of zoans for a squad of hives - Hives are very valid targets for anti-tank firepower (so if I included them they would immediately attract all the AT in the enemy army rather than it having to be wasted on another unit)
Also, zoans are synapse and useful against non-tank models too (ap3 blast)

I'd also prefer redundancy and, after all, the zoanthropes can still pop open transports whereas the hive guard can't pop a landraider.


Rending claws and boneswords aren't the best combination and you seem to be relying on rending and adrenal glands to hurt tanks. I personally think it's not reliable enough to spend the points on.

They are not the best combination but I'd rather have anti-heavy tank rending than a little bit of extra fire-power (spinefist or devourer)

You have hit upon one of my worries - rending isn't particularly reliable (although it cost no points and involves giving up a fairly rubbish gun so...)

My thinking was that 2*3 zoans would be enough to thin down the important tanks so the rest could be left for (especially in objective missions) rending to maybe deal with.

How many vehicles in the average mech army at 1500pts?

[Shas aia Toriia]

Cheesegear, throw in my vote for your Tyranid list.
Also, to the above poster who's name I can't spell, Rending is awesome.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Rending is awesome
yup i agree although not as reliable as i would like

[Cheesegear]

How many vehicles in the average mech army at 1500pts?

A proper Mechanised army?

...Hmm...Beserker Armies will/should have 4 or 5 Rhinos, and two Vindicators/Defilers. And probably a Dreadnought.

Devilfish army would have the same. But, replace the Vindicators with Hammerheads/Skyrays. Which ruin Tyranids.

Mechanised Guard armies aren't common anymore. At 1500 points, you can easily expect someone to be having 100+ Infantry models, and all the Heavy and special Weapons that go with it.
Vendettas will turn your army to crap.
And also probably have 2 or 3 Chimeras for Command Squads.
As well as 2 or 3 of the following in any Combination;
Devil Dogs or Bane Wolves, Leman Russ Battle Tanks or Demolishers, Basalisks or Medusas.

The fact is; You're carting around Doom of Malan'tai and 6 Zoanthropes. I don't foresee you losing to tanks. Unless someone is smart enough to Meltagun or Lascannon them to death. But, if that's the case, why didn't you Warp Blast/Lance them first?

Simply because of my hatred for Special Characters (and everyone else's hatred for you, personally, when you use them), I'd drop Malan'tai for extra Zoanthropes or Hive Guard.

You're also assuming that nobody has read the Tyranid Codex. The first things I would shoot at with my tanks are the Zoanthropes. Nothing will take fire away from them except Monstrous Creatures or Hive Guard.

Warriors are not valid targets for anti-tank, because what're they going to do? Slog it up the whole board (without wings/deep strike) and then Assault it with Rending Claws?
Please.
Lucky for you, Zoanthropes have 3+ Invulnerable which should keep them safe for a while.

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 3
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 2
Tau | Devilfish | 6
Tyranids | Warriors | 4
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

14 Days to vote. If you want to change your vote, please indicate that you're changing from what to what.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

My thought was that warriors were the MOST valid AT target.
I hadn't thought about vendetta's with MMP's
hmm looks like that list is a dud.
I was just interested in building a competitive army with no MC's as most people (I am likely to play) are very good with target priority and many people have distinct AT and AA units so a decision between MC and troop killing isn't a decision.
I was trying to make it the mother of all "what the heck do I shoot with what" armies.
Oh well

Oh and thank you very much for the info on vehicle numbers - i'll bear that in mind

[Copper8642]

My vote for Tau, also. With what you learning a new army being for The Greater Good and all.

[Cheesegear]

My thought was that warriors were the MOST valid AT target.

No. No they're not. An 'anti-tank' target, is whatever can kill your tanks. Which, usually happens to be other tanks. But, in the case of Infantry armies such as yours, this isn't always the case.
Given that Zoanthropes shoot out S10, Lance shots, your opponent will be terrified of them. Then, he realises that they're only T4. Excellent. A proper Ordnance weapon will kill them all. Or Fire Dragons/Dominions.

Imperial Guardsmen using Combine Squads to have 30 Infantry with 3 Lascannons can take Orders to mess you up.

Whereas your Warriors need to slog it for three or four turns and need to rely on Rending. Which is shaky at best. Warriors are not meant to take out tanks. They're meant to crap on Infantry. And they do that. In spades.


I was just interested in building a competitive army with no MC's as most people (I am likely to play) are very good with target priority and many people have distinct AT and AA units so a decision between MC and troop killing isn't a decision.

See my Tyranid Warrior-Genus list. There are no MCs (maybe a Mawloc, but I haven't decided yet), and no swarm creatures. It's all Warriors, all the time.

In something that I'm calling Tyranicus gladiator terminatus Tyranid Warrior Terminators (I think I've got my taxonomy wrong there. 'Family => Genus => Subspecies', right?). Boneswords and Deathspitters. 45 points each. Warriors Fall. Everyone Dies.


I was trying to make it the mother of all "what the heck do I shoot with what" armies.

Then you failed. Pretty badly. Ultimately, Warriors are still only T4 with a 4+ save, and no reliable way to take out tanks (Raveners and Shrikes are different bags of fish). They will get shot at with Assault Cannons, Autocannons and Plasmaguns just like every other Infantry unit. Along with a decent Bolter barrage, Warriors don't last long to that either.

Now...If you took out your Swarms, and boosted your Warriors to Broods of 9 (does anyone know why Warriors can't be 10-strong?). They'd be a decent threat. And pants-wettingly terrifying. Especially if you take Deathspitters and a Spore.

Like I said. I've got my own Warrior list planned out to near-perfection. If/When I get to playtest it (since it is being voted on), I might change it. But, that's what it looks like for now.

*Cheesegear runs off to find his University notes on Taxonomy...*

[slimy_te_t_cles]

We're probably getting confused about what I mean by AT
I mean the guns an opponent has that are specifically for hunting tanks
Zoanthropes have a 3+ invun so quite good vs AT coming their way so...

But yes, in retrospect I did kinda fail with the hard decisions army

How would the warrior army deal with Tau? or Eldar or either kind? I assume you would use zoanthropes?

What would your basic warrior setup be?

I'm interested to see because all the warrior genus armies I've come up with have had ridiculous weaknesses and not much in the way of weakness mitigation or not much in the way of redundancy. That might be because I always like at least 4 big troops choices though (having beaten so many armies by ignoring everything but Troops and going to ground a lot to keep objectives) which limits my ability to take gribbly interesting things.

Oh and re the 9 man squad in spore with DS they would be about 1/3rd of my army and just be begging for a LRBT shell or termi assault so I wouldn't be scared of them at all (I'm a guard player) as they can't kill enough quickly enough to merit their points against hordes and against CC specialists they'll get shredded unless you make them even more expensive.
POINTSINK in other words

[crazedloon]

I was trying to make it the mother of all "what the heck do I shoot with what" armies.

To expand on what cheesegear said To achieve the above it is much better to spam High priority targets (i.e. the opposite of what you did). This way your outnumber your opponents solutions to your units. In the case of infantry heavy armies this means having as many models on the board as you can and overrunning your opponent with sheer volume. With MC/mech armies it is about putting as many of the heavies on the board as you can and relying on the fact that at least a few will get through a turn without being targeted because your opponent does not have enough guns.

The reason that that simple strategy can work (it is not necessarily the best strat but it is a simple one) is that you sheet volume of High Priority targets means you can reduce your opponents solution faster while maintaining the same volume of threats through out the game, and given enough luck your models survive longer than his solution to your models

Yes the above is an over simplification however it most "what the heck do I shoot with what" boil down to numbers not type of targets

[Winterwind]

(does anyone know why Warriors can't be 10-strong?). I think it's a fluff thing. They probably figured that working with multiples of 5/10 is too human, so they wanted a different number to make it look more alien. For the same reason, I find it's a pity they changed the number of models in 'gaunt-broods - I figured 8-32 was more unique than 10-30...



So, since I'm almost finished with painting my 1000 point list (knowing me, I'll probably still need weeks, but that's beside the point :smallredface:), I figured now might be as good a time as any to ask for criticism for my intended 1500 point list.

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Daemon Weapon, combi-melter|140
Troops|10 Chaos Space Marines|Icon of Chaos Glory, 2 meltaguns|180
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|-|35
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|-;Powerfist|208
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Extra Armour|50
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster|185
Troops|5 Plague Marines|flamer|120
Troops|5 Plague Marines|plasmagun|130
Fast Attack|8 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Tzeentch, 2 meltaguns; Dual Lightning-Claws|280
Heavy Support|5 Chaos Space Marine Havocs|1 lascannon, 3 missile launchers|170
||
Total:|1498[/table]
I should add one thing as explanation: This is supposed to be an army following all four Chaos Gods, with a leader who is a devoted follower of all four gods (hence no mark on the Lord) and who wants to spreading the belief in Chaos Undivided. Hence I also want at least one "undivided" squad (hence the Icon of Chaos Glory), and I want something representing each of the four gods - hence the Tzeentch-icon on the raptors, an otherwise probably rather sub-par choice, as I realize. I've also tried to adhere to the holy numbers, as far as reasonable.

Should I go with the dual lightning claws on the raptor champion, or a powerfist instead? The latter would further specialize the squad for tank-hunting; the former would increase their capacities in fighting terminators, tau suits and such.

Which squad should get the second Rhino? The one on the berserkers is a no-brainer, but I'm not sure whether my choice for the other one is right.

And the most major modification I'm wondering about is whether I should drop one of the plague marine squads and use the freed up points to buff the rest of the army (increasing the other plague marine squad to 7, giving it a champion with powerfist, a second special weapon, giving the second Rhino extra armour, etc.).

Your thoughts? Any other glaring mistakes I have made? Further comments? :smallredface:

[Cheesegear]

I mean the guns an opponent has that are specifically for hunting tanks Zoanthropes have a 3+ invun so quite good vs AT coming their way so...

No. Infantry are not tanks. No matter what way you look at it. Since you have to roll on a damage table. And the damage table can be plussed or minused. A number of armies have vehicle upgrades that allow them to ignore certain rolls. Other armies carry Techmarines and Meks just for occasion something does go wrong.

Or, as always happens;
"S10...I roll AP...6...Sweet! That's a penetrating! Roll damage...Oh...A 1..."

A Zoanthrope fails one 3+ save (just one), and it's dead. Marines have 3+ saves and they die all the time.


How would the warrior army deal with Tau? or Eldar or either kind? I assume you would use zoanthropes?

And Hive Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7873441&postcount=73).


What would your basic warrior setup be?

Deathspitters and Scything Talons. As Troops, their goal is to either garrison inside a building (for C&C missions), or make it's way to an objective and stay there. Meaning they need to be able to shoot at targets because they aren't moving once they sit on an objective.

Leave Assault to Raveners and Shrikes. The units that will actually make it to Assault.


Oh and re the 9 man squad in spore [...] just be begging for a LRBT shell or termi assault so I wouldn't be scared of them at all (I'm a guard player)

First, if you allow them to be hit by Ordnance, or Assaulted by Terminators, what is the rest of your army doing that allows that to happen?

Second, Deathspitters crap on Guard. S5 AP5 (that's totally killing on 2s, Kyle!), three shots each. As a Guard player as you claim, you should be scared of Deathspitters.


against CC specialists they'll get shredded unless you make them even more expensive.

What? Warriors with Boneswords are melee specialists. WS5, 3 Attacks each with Power Force Weapons. You can give them Furious Charge if you want, but, that's just ridiculous. Not only that, Warriors have 3 Wounds each. The only thing Warriors are afraid in Assault of are SM Power Fists (but, not Terminators).

Even if we generously allow the Assault Terminators to Assault (let's say, you've just come off a Deep Strike from a Spore);
Both are Strength and Initiative 4 (strike at the same time)
5 Man Assault Terminator squad...20 Lightning Claw attacks at WS4. Okay.
5 Thing(?) Warrior Brood with Boneswords...15 Force Weapon attacks at WS5.

...Both are 200 points each. The Termintors have Unit Strength 5. The Warriors have Unit Strength 15. Even with 5+ Invulnerables, I'm still willing to bank on the Warriors. And, you could even give the Warriors Boneswords and Scything Talons and still be the same cost as Terminators.

...I'm pretty sure you're just using your Warriors wrong. Or, otherwise over-estimating everything else.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

probably overestimating everything else - I tend to go with slightly pessimistic results when I math hammer

Oh and guard shouldn't be scared of DS - if you're playing objective then each time they exterminate a squad they only kill 75pts worth (and they cost around 300) so even though they could kill 20 in 1 round, they only kill 10.

Another reason I thought they sucked is I forgot their increased unit strength which makes them much better in combat

[Cheesegear]

Oh and guard shouldn't be scared of DS - if you're playing objective then each time they exterminate a squad they only kill 75pts worth (and they cost around 300) so even though they could kill 20 in 1 round, they only kill 10.

So...You don't use Combine Squads then? And you're also assuming I only have one unit of Deathspitters. It's the other three units you have to look out for.


Another reason I thought they sucked is I forgot their increased unit strength which makes them much better at everything

Fixed it for you.

Winterwind, it looks like a good list (finally, someone who can write one without it looking like a mess!). Yeah, you know what you're doing. Drop that second Plague Marine squad and do exactly what you think is a good idea.

Put the unit with 2 Meltaguns in the Rhino. They've only got a 12" range. They need to get where they need to be.

Keep the Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws. 2 Meltaguns is plenty good. Give the Champ Meltabombs if you're that worried about it. Icon of Tzeentch is actually pretty good for Raptors, as other dedicated Assault units that you're likely to go up against will also have Power Weapons and keeping your dudes alive is always a good idea.

[Myatar_Panwar]

In my experience, its usually a good idea to combine squads even if you are not running killpoints. At least 20 men or more.

This allows you to use Commissars and orders to their full potential.

edit: And the deathspitters are on warriors? If they were on basic troops they would be far more scary to guard. They already expect elite units to wreak them.

[EleventhHour]

edit: And the deathspitters are on warriors? If they were on basic troops they would be far more scary to guard. They already expect elite units to wreak them.

But... Warriors are troops, now?

Unless the Troop version can't take the Deathspitter...

:: The below is correct, I misunderstood. :smallredface:

[Myatar_Panwar]

They are still elite in nature, arn't they? How many points per model?

I mean, storm bolters are pretty deadly to guard as well, but when they are coming from 40 point models, its to be expected.

[MountainKing]

Oh God. Oh God. I'm scared. Like, really scared. :smalleek: My friend who I'm going to play with tonight did an about face on me and basically said "btw I'mma gonna take the new 'nid 'dex out for a spin tonight". I *dread* playing against him when he plays 'nids, and that is because he has proven to be an evil bastard when he does. I modified my Ork list, taking I believe all of your suggestions to heart (I love you guys that much/I rely on you guys that much, take your pick).

Modified Ork list (2000 pts):

HQ:
Warboss (140 pts):
- Twin-Linked Dakkagun
- Power Klaw
- Stikkbombs
- Warbike
- Cybork Body
- Attack Squig
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Waaaaaagh!

Big Mek (145 pts):
- Shock Attack Gun
- Twin-Linked Dakkagun
- Power Klaw
- Mek’s Tools
- Warbike
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Waaaaaagh!

Troops:
Shoota Boyz Mob (19 Boyz, 1 ‘Ard Boy Nob) (170 pts)
- Shootas x18
- Big Shoota x2
- Power Klaw
- 'Ard Boy Armor
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Waaaaaagh!

Shoota Boyz Mob (19 Boyz, 1 ‘Ard Boy Nob) (170 pts)
- Shootas x18
- Big Shoota x2
- Power Klaw
- 'Ard Boy Armor
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Waaaaaagh!

Nob Bikerz (9 Nob Bikerz, 1 Painboy) (775 pts):
- Twin-Linked Dakkagun x10
- Power Klaw x9
- Cybork Bodies x10
- Bikes
- Dok’s Tools
- ‘Urty Syringe
- Grot Orderly
- Waaaaaagh! Banner
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Waaaaaagh!

Elites:
Lootas (8 Lootas, 3 Meks) (165 pts):
- Deffgun x10
- Kustom Mega-Blasta x3
- Mek’s Tools x3
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Waaaaaagh!

Fast Attack:
Deffkoptas (5) (215 pts)
- Choppa x3
- Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcha x4
- Twin-Linked Shoota
- Jetbikes
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Waaaaaagh!
- Hit and Run
- Scout

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon (150 pts)
- Killkannon
- Zzap Gun
- Big Shoota x2
- Rokkit Launcha x2
- ‘Ard Case
- Red Paint Job
- Grot Riggers
- Armor Plates

For those who didn't look at the last list, I dropped the 'Ard Boyz entirely, with the exception of the Nob squad leaders (who aren't technically 'Ard Boy Nobz but I payed for the 'Eavy Armor for them). The Battlewagon now has a Killkannon, and the Lootas squad is decreased. I also got the hilarious idea to give the Big Mek a Warbike. Why? Because for all purposes of moving and firing, the Shock Attack Gun counts as Heavy, and with a Warbike the Big Mek becomes Relentless.

...I think that works together. Even if it doesn't, it makes my Big Mek more mobile, which could be pivotal to getting LOS for that 60" range.

I don't want to change the list too much, no matter how badly I want to switch those Lootas out for Burna Boyz. It really wouldn't seem terribly sporting to be like "Oh hey yeah I brought a pile of flame templates"... What do you guys think? Do I stand any chance at all? :smallfrown:

EDIT: Oops! I left all my tech notes in there. My bad, they're gone.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Totally expecting to be shot down on this, but this idea just popped into my mind while I was flipping through my codex: What if I had an army themed around bikes and dreads? Fully expecting to be told my idea is completely off, but here goes.

Captain on Bike w/ lightning claws: 150 pts
Command squad on bikes w/ champion, 2 flamers: 220 pts

Master of Forge w/ bike, conversion beamer?: 155 pts

7x bikers w/ meltaguns 200 pts
7x bikers w/ meltaguns 200 pts
6x bikers w/ attack bike 205 pts
10 scouts w/ rocket launcher, power sword 165
10 scouts w/ rocket launcher, power sword 165

2x dreadnought w/ twinlinked heavy flamer
Ven. Dreadnought 2/ twinlinked lascannon, missile launcher
1x dreadnought w/ twinlinked autocannon 115

That's 27 bikes, 20 on foot, and 4 dreads. The plan is the scouts can hold their ground, might equip them with snipers, but I'm not sure how far they might be needed to move. I might combat squads, have one group with the sarge a bit ahead of the rocket group. Their job is to capture and hold objectives. My captain is part of my group of assault bikes, flanked by my two assault dreads. the two larger groups of bikes are tankhunting (with long-range support from my Ven dread), while the last group of bikes is supported by the last dread can generally deal with whatever infantry aren't tied up by my assaulting troops.

Whadd'ya think?

Edit: Oh, and the MoF, I was going to go conversion beamer/bike, but I realised I had misread the conversion beamer stats, and it got more powerful as it got FARTHER, not closer, and thus it is useless to have him carry it on a bike. Thus, QUESTION: What does this list need more, another bike, or more long-ranged firepower? A MoF is a formidable character either way.

Edit Edit: I'm feeling kinda stupid now. I took one more unit of troops than I'm allowed. Just wait a second...

[crazedloon]

stuff

the big mech can not be on the warbike because you are allowed ether or, they both replace the shoota

Also I personally am not a fan of the lottas ( a little of a personal preference so take my suggestion with a grain of salt) now reasons why, they are not maneuverable (due to heavy weapons) they are not consistent (due to random number of attacks)

I personally prefer flash gitz, they are more pricey however, they are more consistent (and can hit the same number of targets thanks to 2 blast templates) are only slightly weaker (str 6) and can be mounted in your battlewagon to be a moving powerhouse. Add your mek in there with a custom forcefield and you have a ridiculous fire platform.

however the rest looks rather good


stuff
Cheese will appreciate cus he loves bikes. anywho

I would try and put the dreds in drop pods
grab a unit of scout bikes with a beacon
equip the scouts with sniper and drop the power swords

[Lycan 01]

Hm. Once I finish these Kans and Looted Wagon, I'll have a 1000 Point army. Yay. ^__^

And then the Battleforce will buff me up to around 1500 points... So I'll actually have a 1.5K army within the next few months. Awesome! :smallbiggrin:


Why do I have the strangest urge to start a Space Marine army afterwards? :smallconfused: I've been doing a lot of research into Space Marines lately for that Freefrom Space Marines pbp game I mentioned, and it has kinda sparked my interest in them... I'm sure it'll pass eventually, but they just seem like they'd be... fun. Even though they are overused and generic. :smallannoyed:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

By axing the MoF's bike (I decided that I needed the firepower more than more close combat), the power swords, and one of the command squad's flamers, I was able to get 2 drop pods, and then I replaced the non-melta biker squad with the scout bikers, and used the saved points from THAT to upgrade one of my assault dreads to an ironclad.


Captain on Bike w/ lightning claws: 150 pts
Command squad on bikes w/ champion, 1 flamers: 215 pts

Master of Forge w/ conversion beamer: 120 pts

7x bikers w/ meltaguns 200 pts
7x bikers w/ meltaguns 200 pts
7x scout bikers w/ locator beacon 175 pts
10 scouts w/ snipers, rocket launcher, 150
10 scouts w/ snipers, rocket launcher, 150

1x ironclad dreadnought, drop pod 170
1x dreadnought w/ twinlinked heavy flamer, drop pod 140
Ven. Dreadnought 2/ twinlinked lascannon, missile launcher 215
1x dreadnought w/ twinlinked autocannon 115

[Cheesegear]

What if I had an army themed around bikes and dreads?

What if you did?


Captain on Bike w/ lightning claws: 150 pts

You should really think about giving this guy a Relic Blade and Storm Shield instead. T5 and 3+ Invulnerable goes a long way. Alternatively, get Artificer Armour as well. T5 and 2+ save goes even further. Either way, don't Assault units with Power Fists.


Command squad on bikes w/ champion, 2 flamers: 220 pts

I have this exact unit.


Master of Forge w/ bike, conversion beamer?: 155 pts

It's the way to be. :smallbiggrin:


7x bikers w/ meltaguns 200 pts
7x bikers w/ meltaguns 200 pts
6x bikers w/ attack bike 205 pts
10 scouts w/ rocket launcher, power sword 165
10 scouts w/ rocket launcher, power sword 165

I think...I think I love you...Drop the Power Weapon (or not, it's sometimes useful), and make sure all your Scouts have Rifles.


2x dreadnought w/ twinlinked heavy flamer

Add Drop Pods. If you can, see about finding points to make these guys Ironclads.

Ironclad Dreadnought - 150
Seismic Hammer and Heavy Flamer, Dreadnought Weapon and Heavy Flamer.
Drop Pod - 35


Ven. Dreadnought 2/ twinlinked lascannon, missile launcher

That's how it's done. Although at first I think you've edited wrong. Should it be w/, or #2, or x2?


1x dreadnought w/ twinlinked autocannon 115

Is this Twin-Linked Autocannon and Dreadnought Weapon? Or Multi-Melta and TL Autocannon? As both arms can be replaced with Autocannons, you kind of need to clarify.

Think about TL Autocannon and Missile Launcher. Or TL Assault Cannon and TL Autocannon or Missile Launcher.


QUESTION: What does this list need more, another bike, or more long-ranged firepower? A MoF is a formidable character either way.

...But, a Bike makes the MoF Relentless. Meaning he can move ('sideways' or backwards) and shoot the CB. It's very awesome. I'd keep him on the bike. The Bike isn't for moving forward. It's for getting your piece of Awesome into a good position and still being able to fire.
Or, running away if it looks like you're about to be Assaulted (from Outflanking or Fast units).

EDIT: Turns out you've changed your list already, and already done half the things I said.

[MountainKing]

the big mech can not be on the warbike because you are allowed ether or, they both replace the shoota


...Reading comprehension fail. >.< My brain didn't quite keep up with me on that one. Arright, the bike has to go... forsooth. As far as the Flash Gits go, I saw them, thought about it, and realized that, if the army didn't revolve around my 775 pts biker squad (915 if you count in the Warboss), the Gitz would be feasible. As the list is, for now I'll hang on to the Lootas (especially since I don't want to change out any unit types) until I play this game.

[Dark Faun]

Since we're on the topic of dreadnoughts, is a dread with twin-linked autocannons on each arm a good idea?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Ooookay.



HQ:
Warboss (140 pts):
- Power Klaw
- Stikkbombs
- Warbike
- Cybork Body
- Attack Squig

Your Warboss has grenades, but he's striking last anyway, due to Power Klaw. Be a dear and take those off, thanks.


Big Mek (145 pts):
- Shock Attack Gun
- Power Klaw
- Warbike

Illegal, and you don't really want your 60 point SAG getting into assault.


Troops:

It's probably a good idea to beef your Boyz squads up to 30.


Nob Bikerz (9 Nob Bikerz, 1 Painboy) (775 pts):
- Power Klaw x9
- Cybork Bodies x10
- Bikes
- Grot Orderly
- Waaaaaagh! Banner

Okay you really really do not need that many Power Klaws. It would be better for you if you equipped each Nob uniquely so you could mess around with wound allocation.


Elites:
Lootas (8 Lootas, 3 Meks) (165 pts):

Lootas. Good. Meks aren't as good, really. Shorter range, less shots and Get's Hot! make for a pretty poor addition.


Fast Attack:
Deffkoptas (5) (215 pts)
- Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcha x4
- Twin-Linked Shoota

Deffkoptas...are not very good. Consider that you're basically paying over 200 points for four TL Rokkit Launchers. Then consider that a Looted Wagon with Boomgun gives you a Large Blast Ordnance Rokkit Launcher, for almost half the price.


Heavy Support:
Battlewagon (150 pts)
- Killkannon
- Zzap Gun
- Big Shoota x2
- Rokkit Launcha x2
- ‘Ard Case
- Red Paint Job
- Grot Riggers
- Armor Plates

I'm of the opinion that a Red Paint Job is very rarely worth the points. Also the points on it are way out of whack. The wagon there is 225 points, and considering you can't fire any other weapon in the same turn you fire the Killkannon, it's really not worth it. I'm not a fan of Zzap Guns at any point, either, and at BS 2 they're even worse. And again, Killkannons just aren't as good as Boomguns, but they're much more expensive.


I don't want to change the list too much, no matter how badly I want to switch those Lootas out for Burna Boyz. It really wouldn't seem terribly sporting to be like "Oh hey yeah I brought a pile of flame templates"... What do you guys think? Do I stand any chance at all? :smallfrown:

If you're going to take Burnas, put them in a Battlewagon so you can put all your templates in the same place. "Okay so that's...seven. Six? Six. Times fifteen."


I personally prefer flash gitz, they are more pricey however, they are more consistent (and can hit the same number of targets thanks to 2 blast templates) are only slightly weaker (str 6) and can be mounted in your battlewagon to be a moving powerhouse. Add your mek in there with a custom forcefield and you have a ridiculous fire platform.

Arrrgh Flash Gits. Why do people think they are good?
-They are Assault weapons, but they have half the sodding range.
-They have better armour saves, but Lootas belong in cover anyway.
-They can pre-measure distances, but again, this is only an issue due to their short range.
-If you have upgraded them to be S6 Assault 2 weapons, they are more than double the cost of a Loota. For a lower strength. Lootas average out to have two shots a turn, anyway.
-Random AP means you don't know whether you ought to shoot at the Guardsmen or the Terminators before you fire.
-Adding in a Battlewagon, a Big Mek, and a KFF not only is an extra 175 points at least, but also takes up an HQ and a Heavy Support slot.

e: Also where are you getting the idea that Flash Gits have a blast template?

[Lycan 01]

@ Discord:

It would make me cry if my Space Marine friend fielded it against my Orks, if that answers your question. :smalleek:

[MountainKing]

Your Warboss has grenades, but he's striking last anyway, due to Power Klaw. Be a dear and take those off, thanks.

Illegal, and you don't really want your 60 point SAG getting into assault.

It's probably a good idea to beef your Boyz squads up to 30.

Okay you really really do not need that many Power Klaws. It would be better for you if you equipped each Nob uniquely so you could mess around with wound allocation.

Lootas. Good. Meks aren't as good, really. Shorter range, less shots and Get's Hot! make for a pretty poor addition.

Deffkoptas...are not very good. Consider that you're basically paying over 200 points for four TL Rokkit Launchers. Then consider that a Looted Wagon with Boomgun gives you a Large Blast Ordnance Rokkit Launcher, for almost half the price.

I'm of the opinion that a Red Paint Job is very rarely worth the points. Also the points on it are way out of whack. The wagon there is 225 points, and considering you can't fire any other weapon in the same turn you fire the Killkannon, it's really not worth it. I'm not a fan of Zzap Guns at any point, either, and at BS 2 they're even worse. And again, Killkannons just aren't as good as Boomguns, but they're much more expensive.

If you're going to take Burnas, put them in a Battlewagon so you can put all your templates in the same place. "Okay so that's...seven. Six? Six. Times fifteen."


First: How do I take something off that the Warboss comes with? I don't think it'll do me any harm or good, so... why?

- I already fixed the Mek, but thanks!
- I *had* a 30 Boyz mob, but there were a few reasons as to why that was a terrible idea (mobility being one of them).
- But... I like Power Klaws... and, the Bikerz are practically the only tank-hunting capable bunch in the group. I dunno, we'll see what happens.
- I wanted to keep the Meks, as the idea was to mount the Lootas in the Battlewagon so they can utilize the firing points. As time passes from the initial drafting, I don't think I can actually make use of what I wanted to, so the Meks coming out is probably for the best.
- After the Bikerz, the Deffkoptas were my only other unit that I thought I could reliably tank-hunt with. They're fast, manuverable, and have Scout which is nice. At the very least, I want to give them a shot on the field.
- On the Battlewagon... err, yes. >_> I'm not quite sure how I lost track of my bookkeeping there... but from the sound of it, the list probably needs an overhaul. Which makes me kind of sad. :smallfrown:

[Cheesegear]

Since we're on the topic of dreadnoughts, is a dread with twin-linked autocannons on each arm a good idea?

Well, I've seen it done. But, I prefer Assault Cannon and TL Autocannon. I call him Lexandro.

[Ninja Chocobo]

First: How do I take something off that the Warboss comes with? I don't think it'll do me any harm or good, so... why?

Rassum frassum. This is why you don't list stock wargear and special rules on army lists. It is unnecessary and confusing.


- I *had* a 30 Boyz mob, but there were a few reasons as to why that was a terrible idea (mobility being one of them).

Boyz should really be taken in the maximum size for their purpose. Footsloggers? 30. Trukk? 12. Wagon? 20. Helps you stay alive. Oh, and make sure to spread them out. Don't want to get pie plated.


- But... I like Power Klaws... and, the Bikerz are practically the only tank-hunting capable bunch in the group. I dunno, we'll see what happens.

Power Klaws are, essentially, the Ork anti-tank weapon. I'm with you there. But you really really really do not need sodding nine of them in a squad. Remember you can only assault one tank per turn, and you're taking them at the expense of wound allocation.


- I wanted to keep the Meks, as the idea was to mount the Lootas in the Battlewagon so they can utilize the firing points. As time passes from the initial drafting, I don't think I can actually make use of what I wanted to, so the Meks coming out is probably for the best.

Lootas have a 48" range. You can hit damn near anywhere on a standard table with that. And if you can't deploy them in cover, get a better table.


- After the Bikerz, the Deffkoptas were my only other unit that I thought I could reliably tank-hunt with. They're fast, manuverable, and have Scout which is nice. At the very least, I want to give them a shot on the field.

Yeah, I haven't actually played with them myself. They just seem way overcosted to me.


- On the Battlewagon... err, yes. >_> I'm not quite sure how I lost track of my bookkeeping there... but from the sound of it, the list probably needs an overhaul. Which makes me kind of sad. :smallfrown:

Well, if it's an overhaul you want... *cracks knuckles*


HQ
Warboss 150 points
-PK
-Attack Squig
-Warbike
-Cybork

Warboss 150 points
-PK
-Attack Squig
-Warbike
-Cybork

Troops
30x Boyz 240 points
-3x Big Shoota
-Nob
-PK
-Bosspole
-'Eavy Armour

30x Boyz 240 points
-3x Big Shoota
-Nob
-PK
-Bosspole
-'Eavy Armour

6x Nobz 435 points
-Bikes
-Cyborks
-Power Klaw
-Power Klaw, Bosspole
-Power Klaw, Kombi-Skorcha
-Painboy
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Waaagh! Banner

6x Nobz 435 points
-Bikes
-Cyborks
-Power Klaw
-Power Klaw, Bosspole
-Power Klaw, Kombi-Skorcha
-Painboy
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Waaagh! Banner

Elites
15x Lootas 225 points

Heavy Support
1x Looted Wagon 125 points
-Boomgun
-'Ard Case
-Armour Plates


2000 points even.

e: Math is off. Correcting...
e2: Correction complete.

[Cheesegear]

Stuff

3 units of 20 Boyz is better than 2 units of 30. Just so you know. :smallwink:

I've been told the 'optimum' slogger squad is 20-24. Anymore than that, and you should think about taking two squads instead. Since it gives you access to another Nob with Power Klaw. Opposition needs to split their fire. You can shoot/assault multiple fronts, etc.

[Winterwind]

Winterwind, it looks like a good list (finally, someone who can write one without it looking like a mess!). Yeah, you know what you're doing. Drop that second Plague Marine squad and do exactly what you think is a good idea.

Put the unit with 2 Meltaguns in the Rhino. They've only got a 12" range. They need to get where they need to be.

Keep the Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws. 2 Meltaguns is plenty good. Give the Champ Meltabombs if you're that worried about it. Icon of Tzeentch is actually pretty good for Raptors, as other dedicated Assault units that you're likely to go up against will also have Power Weapons and keeping your dudes alive is always a good idea.Yay! :smallbiggrin:
Alright, thank you, and I shall heed your advice. :smallsmile:

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Way way late but I do want to dispute the common consensus that guard players should form up into big squads. In killpoints I agree. Otherwise no no no (except vs exclusively shooty armies and even then it's a close call. It is best on a very flat board though to let all your men shoot).
My reasoning (and experience) is this:
If you have multiple different squads, you can have so many that the opponent has to wipe out each squad every time he fires to kill all your troops choices.
Against assault armies it makes damn sure they'll be out of combat for your shooting phase and the low points of guard squads means you don't care if they die. This does prevent you using tarpit tactics though, but I have often found that using multiple squads absolutely demolishes enemy assault armies.

Against point sink units you guarantee they never do their points worth of damage and against hordes you make sure your fire-power is applied each and every turn.

I agree that orders are amazing but I normally find that multiple units works better (just my experience)

[Cheesegear]

Way way late but I do want to dispute the common consensus that guard players should form up into big squads.

Why? Orders can be given to the whole squad. Especially the Rapid Fire Lasgun one. That is usually brutal against pretty much anything if you have enough men.

More men using Combine Squads also means more men to be taken out before your Ld checks need to be made. It ultimately ends up being cheaper as you only need one Vox or Commissar for the whole squad. Multiple Heavy Weapons in the same unit make Heavy Weapon Teams redundant.


In killpoints I agree.

In Annhilation, sure.


It is best on a very flat board though to let all your men shoot).

lol. I wish I played on flat grassland. Fact is, nobody does.


If you have multiple different squads, you can have so many that the opponent has to wipe out each squad every time he fires to kill all your troops choices.

It's pretty easy if you know what you're doing.


Against assault armies it makes damn sure they'll be out of combat for your shooting phase and the low points of guard squads means you don't care if they die.

What? Against Guard, a good player will always be in Assault. Even if he has a shooty army (Tau being the one exception).


This does prevent you using tarpit tactics though, but I have often found that using multiple squads absolutely demolishes enemy assault armies.

I've found that it goes about 50:50. If the Assault player is any good. If he can get his units into Assault, and uses LoS intelligently.

Still, even against Guard, if I can get a unit - any unit - within range of the objective; It's a Draw. No matter how many Troops you have.


Against point sink units you guarantee they never do their points worth of damage

They don't need to. They just need to take out your Command Squads, and then you're boned. They do their points over a number of turns.

'Making Points Back' is a sucker's game. And anybody who bases units on that particular factor...Well, they have a very narrow view of the game.


I agree that orders are amazing but I normally find that multiple units works better (just my experience)

...Tournament lists and experiences tell me a different story. Common knowledge is that Imperial Guard are the most overpowered list anyway.

You can pretty much say 'Infantry' and win any game you want. Which is why I always...Not care. When someone says "As a Guard player I could beat that..."

Also, at S3 AP-. Guard wont be killing many Warriors anyway. Not if the Warriors are bought in bulk.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Quote:
It is best on a very flat board though to let all your men shoot).
lol. I wish I played on flat grassland. Fact is, nobody does.


What I meant was that combining squads is best on a fairly flat board as no elevation means you can't get most of your infantry squads firing if you split them up
I did not mean no cover


More men using Combine Squads also means more men to be taken out before your Ld checks need to be made. It ultimately ends up being cheaper as you only need one Vox or Commissar for the whole squad. Multiple Heavy Weapons in the same unit make Heavy Weapon Teams redundant.

Good point well made however I have found that not buying these upgrades and splitting squads means more squads with cover from each other
I am a bit confused about "Multiple Heavy Weapons in the same unit make Heavy Weapon Teams redundant." - multiple squads with multiple heavy weapons make the heavy weapons redundant as well (and means you can split your fire over multiple targets) - It is true that it's easier to take out a given heavy weapon, but splitting squads means they need at least as many squads as the number of heavy weapons they want to take out. One unlucky pinning or morale check can do a lot more damage then.

All that changes on the morale front is that you need to take models giving area leadership (and make sure they are not loaded with fire power thus not seen as a threat so even if they are eliminated by a canny player, that firepower could've taken out a heavy weapon)

Also, more squads means more cover saves when shielding each other
It does make the movement phase EXTREMELY important - a few wrong moves here and with splits squads you cannot fire anything - but I am good in the movement phase with this army, thus able to mitigate most of it's weaknesses.


Quote:
If you have multiple different squads, you can have so many that the opponent has to wipe out each squad every time he fires to kill all your troops choices.
It's pretty easy if you know what you're doing.

Its pretty hard if the guard player knows what he's doing (cover, go to ground) so if they are finding it easy that's not the tactics problem,it's the person using the tactic.


Quote:
This does prevent you using tarpit tactics though, but I have often found that using multiple squads absolutely demolishes enemy assault armies.
I've found that it goes about 50:50. If the Assault player is any good. If he can get his units into Assault, and uses LoS intelligently.

Very true, hence your movement has to be done with this in mind. It's not an easy tactic to pull off as it punishes you mercilessly for any small errors (and i'm the kind of sadist who normally plays most games on hardest, even when I can't seem to win - it adds to the tension and enjoyment of the game)


Quote:
Against assault armies it makes damn sure they'll be out of combat for your shooting phase and the low points of guard squads means you don't care if they die.
What? Against Guard, a good player will always be in Assault. Even if he has a shooty army (Tau being the one exception).

Yes, but he will also be out of combat at the beginning of your turn as 10 guardsmen are going to break. If your opponent plays an assault army that can't wipe out or rout a squad of guardsmen on the charge, then either their units are tiny (shoot me pls), or their assault units suck in assault.


Quote:
I agree that orders are amazing but I normally find that multiple units works better (just my experience)
...Tournament lists and experiences tell me a different story.

I've never been to a tournament but pretty much all the people I play against have and do go to tournaments - who knows, maybe this tactic is one of the ones that just hasn't been tried and perfected by tourny players (since it takes a while to master - like more than 7-8 games of losing hard).

Oh and thanks for your criticism of the Nid's - very useful (esp drop the Doom for more zoans) as they were things that I would've never thought they could have improved the list but did due to them meshing better with it.

[Arcanoi]

First: How do I take something off that the Warboss comes with? I don't think it'll do me any harm or good, so... why?

- I already fixed the Mek, but thanks!
- I *had* a 30 Boyz mob, but there were a few reasons as to why that was a terrible idea (mobility being one of them).
- But... I like Power Klaws... and, the Bikerz are practically the only tank-hunting capable bunch in the group. I dunno, we'll see what happens.
- I wanted to keep the Meks, as the idea was to mount the Lootas in the Battlewagon so they can utilize the firing points. As time passes from the initial drafting, I don't think I can actually make use of what I wanted to, so the Meks coming out is probably for the best.
- After the Bikerz, the Deffkoptas were my only other unit that I thought I could reliably tank-hunt with. They're fast, manuverable, and have Scout which is nice. At the very least, I want to give them a shot on the field.
- On the Battlewagon... err, yes. >_> I'm not quite sure how I lost track of my bookkeeping there... but from the sound of it, the list probably needs an overhaul. Which makes me kind of sad. :smallfrown:

-As CG said, 2x30 < 3x20

-I think you'd do far better SPLITTING your nob squads. Throw the Warboss with one. That 11-man Conglomerated squad is 1000 points. It will kill anything it touches (That's what? 36 S9 and 6 S10 attacks?).... but it's only touching one enemy unit a turn. Split them up and they're still a terrifying squad able to kill or at least savage two units a turn instead of one.

-Battlewagons could be worse. I don't much like the Killcannon, boomguns being better and all, but you can throw a bunch of other weapons on there, including the Zzap Gun that can throw out a S10 shot without worrying about the bad effects, as well as 4 shootas or Rokkits. I might suggest knocking down one of your split squads of Nobs into a footNob squad, and give them a Battlewagon DT, since two Battlewagons is always better than one. Not to mention, two Deffrollas are better than one.

[Lycan 01]

What would you guys suggest for Tau Fire Warriors? Pulse Rifles, or Pulse Carbines? :smallconfused:

A friend wants me to put his first squad of Tau together for him, and I need to know what the best gear would be...

[crazedloon]

What would you guys suggest for Tau Fire Warriors? Pulse Rifles, or Pulse Carbines? :smallconfused:

A friend wants me to put his first squad of Tau together for him, and I need to know what the best gear would be...

Rifles because of the range. Tau want to stay as far away from enemies as they can. leave the carbines to your pathfinders (who really should be using there marker lights instead) and your gun drones.

[Voidhawk]

What would you guys suggest for Tau Fire Warriors? Pulse Rifles, or Pulse Carbines? :smallconfused:

A friend wants me to put his first squad of Tau together for him, and I need to know what the best gear would be...
Rifles. If you're standing still you want the range, and if you're moving (with a devilfish: there's no other way to travel :smallamused:) you want the rapid fire.

[Lycan 01]

Plus, he'd be playing against me and my SM buddy, and both our Troops are Fearless. So the Pinning Tests from the Pulse Carbines would be redundant...

[Shas aia Toriia]

Plus, he'd be playing against me and my SM buddy, and both our Troops are Fearless. So the Pinning Tests from the Pulse Carbines would be redundant...

How is everybody all of a sudden fearless? :smallconfused:

[Lycan 01]

SM - And They Shall Know No Fear

Orks - Mobs of more than 12


The only folks he'd have much luck with are the Chaos Marines...

[crazedloon]

SM - And They Shall Know No Fear

Orks - Mobs of more than 12


The only folks he'd have much luck with are the Chaos Marines...

they shall know no fear can still be pinned

and chaos is actually fearless (well the good models that is :smallwink:)

[Archetype-]

SM - And They Shall Know No Fear

Somehow, almost everyone around here who picks up 40k mistakes ATSKNF for Fearless. They're two completely different special rules. Models with the ATSKNF (which is pretty much just Space Marines) can still be pinned and forced to fall back. Just ask anyone who's hit them with a Weaken Resolve and forced a Morale check... or nailed they with Terrorfecies (hope that's spelled right).

Models with the latter never fall back... ever. Even when staying put would be a Very Bad Idea (glares at Yarrick).

[Shas aia Toriia]

SM - And They Shall Know No Fear


Not fearless - if it were, they would have explicitly stated so.

[Lycan 01]

Hm. Odd. Could have sworn SMs got immunity to Pinning... :smallconfused:


At any rate, I'll just give the Tau guys Pulse Rifles... He probably won't even use them that much, anyway...

[Ricky S]

Definately the rilfles because that way you get longer range and the potential to rapid fire withing 12 inches which is two shots instead of 1. Plus I have found using carbines only to get about one successful pin with my firewarriors in a standard game.

If you want to pin units use pathfinders markerlights and gun drones. The gun drones get the kills which cause pinning tests and use all the markerlight hits to lower their leadership. That way they have a far greater chance of failing. Although that is generally a waste of markerlight hits which could be used to raise BS of your tanks, crisis suits or units of firewarriors. Fire Warriors I might add are nasty if you deploy from a devilfish into rapid fire range and use markerlight hits to increase BS to 5. 24 str 5 shots hitting on 2's is painful especially for guard equivalent's ie 5+ save.

But why would you want to pin anyway when you could just wipe out the entire unit?

[Ninja Chocobo]

If you're using them with transports it may be advisable to take a couple of Carbines in the squad, especially if you're facing large units of assault-oriented models. Definitely not the entire squad, though.

[Cheesegear]

Fire Warriors I might add are nasty if you deploy from a devilfish...

Otherwise known as the Devilfish Army of Doom. :smallamused:
Which, incidentally is the current 'leader' of my upcoming blog project.

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 3
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 2
Tau | Devilfish | 7
Tyranids | Warriors | 4
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

14 Days to vote. If you want to change your vote, please indicate that you're changing from what to what.

[Oslecamo]

Yay! :smallbiggrin:
Alright, thank you, and I shall heed your advice. :smallsmile:

One more advice for your chaos army:

Swap the chaos lord for a winged demon prince with doombolt.

Thing is, demon weapons are overpriced. +1d6 attacks and +1 str, sounds nice, but you're paying a whooping 40 points, and 1/6th of the time the chaos lord goes emo, being unable to do anything at all and even taking a wound, adding injury to the insult. This isn't nice at all for a 140 points model. When that happens in the middle of combat, you'll want to scream in rage.

The prince is tougher, stronger, can move faster with wings, shoot with doombolt, ignores armor anyway and altough he'll have 1-2 less attacks, he's hiting harder, and he'll never go emo in the tick of the fray.

You can leave the prince unmarked to keep the fluff of your army.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Then again, when the demon weapon works.....

Last game my Khorne Lord killed both Canis Wolfborn and 4 terminators single-handedly. All thanks to that extra 2d6 :smalltongue:

Though yes I agree that the Demon Prince is overall better.

[Ricky S]

If you're using them with transports it may be advisable to take a couple of Carbines in the squad, especially if you're facing large units of assault-oriented models. Definitely not the entire squad, though.

I disagree. I find that the extra shots from the rapid fire are far better than the carbines. Like I said before if you are intent on pinning something using pathfinders and or gun drones. They can charge you anyway because you deploy behind the devilfish and shoot under it because it is a skimmer. Then when its their turn unless they destroy your devilfish completely which is unlikely as they need to roll a 6 on the penetration then you still have cover in front of you. Plus they cannot move within 1 inch of a model they are not charging.

So if they charge the devilfish its fine because tanks cant be in combat and you can still shoot in your turn. I suppose the only units you really have to worry about are fleet. They could possibly get into range to charge but that is why if you do attack you do it excessively ie 3 devilfish with 12 firewarriers each unleashing into one unit is nasty.

Oooh and put me down for the devilfish of doom if I can vote.

(Ironically I do not play a devilfish army of doom, I am heavily focussed on crisis suits and make my firewarriors walk mwahaha.)

[Archetype-]

Then again, when the demon weapon works.....

Last game my Khorne Lord killed both Canis Wolfborn and 4 terminators single-handedly. All thanks to that extra 2d6 :smalltongue:

This. I have a friend who regularly uses a winged Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder flying alongside his Khornate Raptors (said friend is also strongly tempted to go with Beasts of Chaos... allied with Khorne) in his games. He's had a lot of success with said Lord, so it works for him. I've suggested to him at least once to put him on a Juggernaut instead so he can get those attacks at S5.

Also, got to see the new 'Nids in action against the 'Crons. No Tervigons to be seen, 'cause the guy says he's a bad converter and he thinks they suck (how a scoring Monsterous Creature who can crap more scoring units and give them shiny USRs can suck is beyond me :smallconfused: ). He did take the Doom of Malantai. He ended up forcing a phase out, but that would have happened without the Doom's aid. It was actually the first time the 'Cron player had lost... with his 'Crons. He still made a fairly good showing, downing a Trygon, a Swarmlord+Guard brood, and a Carnifex among other things.

Aside from his Zoanthropes, he didn't really much anti-tank firepower. I look forward to fighting him with my Guard and seeing how he likes my Mobile Infantry. :smallamused:

-Archetype

[Cheesegear]

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 4
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 2
Tau | Devilfish | 8
Tyranids | Warriors | 5
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

12 Days to vote. If you want to change your vote, please indicate that you're changing from what to what.

So, I went out and got the Tau Empire Codex today. Sat down with it for about an hour and a half, opened the GW FAQ on said Tau. And, have the following questions/opinions regarding the Tau;

Tau Empire is obviously an old Codex. I assume I am meant to disregard any and all upgrades that allow bonuses to Target Priority checks?

HQ
Commanders are 1+. Have to take 'em. Regardless of my opinions of them (although mostly positive anyway), I need them. I don't get a choice.

Since Special Issue stuff is Commander/Bodyguard only, I'll discuss it here, now.
Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors are sweet. G = Barrage Weapon in 5th Ed. All Barrage weapons are Pinning (BBB pg 32). Large Blast. No Cover Saves. Sweetness. The AP could be better though. But, it's a Large Blast. You're going to get Hits. And somebody's going to fail a save.

The Cyclone Ion Blaster is not so good at S3, AP4. But it's also Assault 5. With a special Rending rule, that isn't Rending. For, example, the CIB can not wound T7+ models (there aren't that many though), nor, can it even Glance AV10.

Command and Control Node; Target Priority (as a Rule, not a 'tactical concept') no longer exists. Worthless.

Is Iridium Armour worth it?

Related; Shield Generators vs. Shield Drones? More on Drones later.

Positional Relay; Nice. But, I wouldn't use it that often since I hate Reserves with a passion. Cancel that. From the name I assumed it would be intended to be 'from Deep Strike only'. It isn't. Outflankers benefit as well. RAW is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Vectored Retro Thrusters; Independent Characters or Single-Teams only? Bad. Bad. Bad. Single-Teams have a Terminal case of the Badness. Especially since you can get Target Locks for your teams and shoot at separate units anyway - if you want. Unless you want to split your teams to force your opponent to divide fire. But, Battlesuits really aren't that tough and kind of do need to be in units.

Ejection Systems; No. Just...No? Or am I missing something?
Failsafe Detonator; S8, AP-? Pass. High strength means jack-all unless you're attacking tanks (which FsD doesn't work on), or you've got Low AP to go with it. Waste of points...Right?

Stimulant Injector; Sweeeet.

Ethereals: I...Honestly don't know how to feel about them. On the one hand, their ability to give rerolls to Morale checks (including passed ones - which is helpful. So, after you take 25% casualties from shooting, you can purposely try and fall back from Assault range) to everyone is nice. But, if they die (which any smart player will kill first thing in the game), they force Morale checks on everything. However, Tau do have Ld 8.

Also, the wording is '...every unit of Tau on the tabletop...'. For other armies, I know that if a model is inside a vehicle; it's not on the table. Does that mean Tau units inside Devilfish do not take the test - for better or worse?

Given that the Ethereal is likely to be killed at the first opportunity, he kind of needs to take Honour Guard. Does this Honour Guard have access to a Devilfish? I'm assuming 'yes'. As Honour Guard have the 'same options' as normal Fire Warriors.

...However, as a second HQ. Ethereals wont be bought until in the later stages of army building. But, one wonders, wouldn't a second Commander (plus Bodyguard) be better?

Elites:
Crisis Suits: At first glance, at 25 points each...Awesome. Until I realised they didn't come with any weapons. :smallfrown:

Weapon Systems: (non-Special Issue)
Burst Cannons are worse than Heavy Bolters.
Flamers are Flamers (why are your Crisis Suits that close in the first place!?), and Fusion Guns are Melta Guns (still, I really don't want my Crisis Suits that close).

Missile Pods are Autocannons with only slightly shorter range, but Assault weapons. :smallbiggrin:
And Plasma Rifles are Plasmaguns with one less strengh, but, don't Get Hot. I gladly make that trade as the difference between S7 and S6 is next to nil. Again, :smallbiggrin:

Any and all of these weapons can be Twin-Linked for +50% points cost.
However, I also see that a 'Twin-Linked weapon counts as two [weapon systems]'. Does this mean a 'Suit needs a Multi-Tracker to fire his weapons as Twin Linked?
Second, the X/Y points cost; Do you pay X points for the first weapon, and Y points for the second weapon (X+Y). Or do I simply pay Y for both?

Battlesuit Systems: (non-Special Issue)
Advanced Stabilsation System; Hmm...The only reason to want to be Slow and Purposeful is to be Relentless. However, page 52 of the BBB says "Models with Jet Packs have the 'Relentless' special rule."
...I was about to write the acronym for Advanced Stabilisation System. But, then I'd get censored. Anyway, they're worthless. Except on Broadsides as Broadsides do not have Jet Packs and are not Relentless 'to start'.
(except if you take (...Damn it. There's no short way to write it...) AdStabs {?} on Broadsides are not Targeting Arrays, you deserve to be smacked upside the head)

Blacksun Filter; Situational at best (read; Worthless)

Multi-Tracker; If you need one to fire Twin-Linked weapons, they're a 'must have'. They're kind of a 'must have' anyway. :smallconfused:

Shield Generator; Umm...Probably not on regular 'Suits. Maybe the Commander. But, no-one else. :smallconfused:

Target Lock is quite nice if you have a unit that wants to shoot at tanks and infantry at the same time (WRRRYYY would you do that to yourself!?).

Targeting Array; Fun times. :smallbiggrin:

...Again, seriously, do you need to take a Multi-Tracker to fire Twin-Linked weapons? Because, if you don't, your entire 'Suit portion of your army should be loading up on TAs.

Stealth Team:
They seem slightly over-pointsed to me. Although, the ability to Outflank with Melta weapons is kind of neat.

Also, when Night Fighting, do Barrage weapons roll 4d6 for Scatter? 2d6 Normal. +1d6 for Stealth Armour, +1d6 per page 95 of the BBB?

Drones:
I'm not a huge fan of Shield Drones. As they provide a limited Invulnerable Save. For the Commander, I think I'd rather prefer a Shield Generator. For the permanency. For regular 'Suits, I don't think I'd give them a Drone Controller at all. Since only the good ones can take Hard-Wired, and not-Hard Wired takes up your System slot better used by Arrays or Trackers.

Marker Drones are clearly the best Drone. Albeit expensive. Networked Markerlights are a lot of fun. But, since the Commander is already BS5, they're kind of not that great for him. Unless you need to deny Cover Saves. But, then, why isn't your Commander carting an AFP?

Gun Drones I really don't like. I like them on vehicles (more on that later). But, not as upgrades for personal items.

In fact, anyone not able to take a Hard-Wired controller shouldn't be taking Drones at all. And, anyone like that, would benefit far more from a Maker Drone. Just saying.

Troops
Fire Warriors are fun! I don't think I can say anymore than that. A Marker Drone appears to be the best choice for Fire Warriors. And IMO a Bonding Knife would be a pretty handy thing to have. Since the Markerlight carried by Shas'ui is not a Networked Markerlight, is it worth paying for?

I get conflicting reports on how many Pulse Carbines to take. A fairly reliable source tells me 1/3 to 1/2 of the unit should be 'Carbining' (if there are any Carbines in the unit at all, that is). As you shouldn't leave Pinning casualties to the one or two Drones you've got hanging around. If you're to Pin a unit, you damn well make sure you're doing it.

But, just up the page I'm told that Carbines should be left to Pathfinders. What? I thought Pathfinders were supposed to take Rifles. And anyone not taking Rifles should be shooting Markerlights. No?

Devilfish digression
Devilfish are pretty good. As vehicles, they should always be moving at least 6" a turn. However, this means they can only fire 1 weapon, plus all defensive weapons. Except that Devilfish can't take any weapon under S5. So, that doesn't mean anything.

And, while the Drones are still attached to the 'Fish, they count as being part of the vehicle (Tau FAQ), and so can't fire because Pulse Carbines are S5. As why would you not be firing the Burst Cannon instead? Disengage the Drones ASAP as if you move the vehicle, and disembark passengers (Drones), the passengers can still shoot if they have weapons they're allowed to shoot (i.e; Assault weapons).
I'm not sure trading Gun Drones for a single Smart Missile is worth it.

Kroot have a terminal case of the badness. Kroot are better than Tau at Assault, like Orgyns are better than Imperial Guard at Assault. In that, that really isn't saying much. Sure, they're an Infiltrating Troop choice, but, they suck so badly.
I know if I end up taking Tau on March 1st, I'll never use these guys. Ever.

Fast Attack:
Gun Drones: Errrng...Why wouldn't you just take Fire Warriors? ...For less points.

Pathfinder Teams:
I mentioned them briefly in the Fire Warriors part. Really? Should they be pinning units with Carbines, or shooting with Rifles (and Pinning anyway) and Markerlights?

Since there are so many Markerlight shots, it is worth upgrading their Devilfish to Seeker Missiles as the Gun Drones aren't really needed for Pathfinders.

Also, unless you're up against 2+ save models, or models with a magical Toughness 7 (but not Toughness 8), Rail Rifles dominate Sniper Rifles. Even against vehicles.
Sniper Rifle (S3 vs. vehicles), rolls a 6 - Rends - for +1d3. For AP roll of 10-12. This requires you to roll not just one 6, but, something else good after that too.
Rail Rifle is S6. It get get an AP roll of 12 on just one 6.

Also, can Scouts disembark from a vehicle during their Scout move? I assume 'yes'. As the rules for Scouts indicate making a 'normal move' - with restrictions - but, 'disembarking from a vehicle' is not one of them.

Piranhas: I. Love. Land Speeders. Except that Piranhas are Open-Topped, BS3, and come with a Burst Cannon - which I've previously mentioned is worse than a Heavy Bolter. Front armour 11 is nice too. But, for 10 more points than a Land Speeder? :smallfrown:
Of course, you can purchase upgrades to make them better. But, still, the thing is Open-Topped. The extra Gun Drones don't exactly fill me with happiness though. At least a Piranha is Fast and can shoot all weapons if it moves 6"

Vespids: Ahhhm...Hmm...They carry S5, AP3 weapons. They're short-range, but, Vespids have Wings and are Fleet, and so can get into range. But, with AP3 weapons, they work best against Marines. Who carry AP5 Bolters and will kill Vespids quite easily if you're not careful.
...Like Ethereals, I can't decide if I like Vespids or not.

Heavy Support:
Damn it. Damn it. Damn it. I like all four choices. But, only have 3 HS slots. Damn it.

Broadsides: Don't they make you happy? With 72" range Railguns, they effectively have unlimited range. And their Railguns are Twin-Linked. And way more awesome stats than Seeker Missiles. I think I'd upgrade to TL Plasma Rifles every time for little bastard Infantry who plan on getting close.
I think my one Support System on all of them would have to be Shield Generators. I don't think they need a Team Leader.

Sniper Drone Team: Sniper Drone Teams are 0-1. With the availability of 1-3 units. I was confused at first. But, then I read the FAQ and found out that they are deployed separately and count as individual units - which is not even mentioned in the Codex, in addition to making them 400% more useful.

Hammerheads: *Drool*. Except, if you take one, you need to take two. And that's two HS slots gone. BAM!
...Hang on, it says that a Hammerhead can take any Vehicle Upgrade. A Targeting Array is a vehicle upgrade. Can a Hammerhead take a second TA in addition to the one it already has?

Skyray: I like the idea of the Skyray. But, pay an extra 15 points and you get a Hammerhead with a Railgun that comes with better BS for free.

Not that I'm saying that any of these units are bad, but, if I do my Devilfish Army of Doom, I might go dual Hammerheads and Sniper Drones. Although I really want Broadsides because they're just so cool.

For those of you in the know; Heavy Gear is/was one of my favourite games. And everytime I see Broadsides I'm reminded of Heavy Gear (not anime mecha {except for the anime they did do that was based on Heavy Gear [which is actually Canadian], which was cool}) and it's awesomesauce.

Speaking of, I don't like Crisis Suits. Just Broadsides.

Disclaimer: I do not like Tau 'more' than any other army I've previously specified, and, after reading the above post, nobody should change their vote because they think it's the army I want to do the most. It isn't. I will not tell you the army I want to do the most until March 1st when it's too late because I'm finalising on Feb. 28th.

[Bavarian itP]

Can I vote for Not-Tau? :smallwink:

If not, then Saim-Hann.

[Cheesegear]

Can I vote for Not-Tau? :smallwink:

...Hmm...In the event of a tie - which seems unlikely at this point as all the 'regulars' have put in their votes and it would probably take a swarm of Pixies in the next few days to 'swing' the vote that hard - I will go whatever Not-Tau happens to be.

...Then again, some of those Pixies might even vote pro-Tau.


If not, then Saim-Hann.

I'm counting this.

[Lansier]

I'm not really an expert on Tau but I do play them so...



Tau Empire is obviously an old Codex. I assume I am meant to disregard any and all upgrades that allow bonuses to Target Priority checks?


Pretty much.

On HQ's:
The commander, being in essence a beefed up crisis suit, is one of the most useful units in the Tau army, a Shas'el should almost always carry a targeting array to boost his BS to 5, the Shas'O however has BS 5 out of the box so doesn't need the TA.

Etherals should be ignored really, taking one is kind of like giving your opponent some free points to use.

Twin linked weapons fire as a single weapon but take up the place of two on your suits. so no multi-tracker is needed.

Special issue wargear:

The AFP is indeed sweet, however putting it on the commander is kind of a waste, note that crisis team leaders (shas'vre) can also carry special issue wargear.

The CiB is a popular choice for the commander, take it along with a plasma rifle and there will be little that he can't kill. This is one of the more popular set-ups for your Shas'el/Shas'O.

Command and control node: Spot on really.

Iridium armor: It improves your survivability at the cost of your mobility, how useful it is depends entirely on your play style. Best when combined with shield drones (as they also get a 2+ armor save) a stimulant injector and a shield generator, for an extremely durable commander.

Positional relay: I haven't used it so I won't comment, it is however used in a tactic called 'ninja Tau'.

Vectored Retro Thrusters: Pretty bad, you shouldn't be in combat in the first place and it relies on you winning an initiative test, pass.

Ejection system: Like you said bad.

Failsafe Detonator: Not good, but not quite bad either, still wouldn't take it though.

Stimulant injector: Feel no pain, what more can I say?

I'll post more later.

[Trixie]

...I was about to write the acronym for Advanced Stabilisation System. But, then I'd get censored. Anyway, they're worthless. Except on Broadsides as Broadsides do not have Jet Packs and are not Relentless 'to start'.
(except if you take (...Damn it. There's no short way to write it...) AdStabs {?} on Broadsides are not Targeting Arrays, you deserve to be smacked upside the head)

Um... can you clarify? That last part honestly doesn't make sense to me :smallconfused:


Kroot have a terminal case of the badness. I know if I end up taking Tau on March 1st, I'll never use these guys. Ever.

Good :smallbiggrin:

I'm surprised you're not talking about Tau Bikers, though. I expected you to find a way for it, somehow.

Also - why alternative HQs aren't mentioned? If you're not fielding Kroot, you might want to take a look at Commander Farsight, especially with your choice of upgrades. Or is he too 'expensive'?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Kroot have a terminal case of the badness. Kroot are better than Tau at Assault, like Orgyns are better than Imperial Guard at Assault. In that, that really isn't saying much. Sure, they're an Infiltrating Troop choice, but, they suck so badly.

They have their uses.
http://i48.tinypic.com/27wzy3l.jpg
(His opponent was playing a White Scars army without Kor'sarro Khan (the tournament didn't allow special characters), and held everything in reserve. The Tau player Infiltrated his Kroot all along his deployment line, so none of the army was able to come on to the board. Turn one win for the Tau.)

[Forrestfire]

Devilfish digression
Devilfish are pretty good. As vehicles, they should always be moving at least 6" a turn. However, this means they can only fire 1 weapon, plus all defensive weapons. Except that Devilfish can't take any weapon under S5. So, that doesn't mean anything.

And, while the Drones are still attached to the 'Fish, they count as being part of the vehicle (Tau FAQ), and so can't fire because Pulse Carbines are S5. As why would you not be firing the Burst Cannon instead? Disengage the Drones ASAP as if you move the vehicle, and disembark passengers (Drones), the passengers can still shoot if they have weapons they're allowed to shoot (i.e; Assault weapons).
I'm not sure trading Gun Drones for a single Smart Missile is worth it.


Now is probably a good time to point out that gun drones have a clause allowing them to shoot at their own BS from a vehicle at any time, regardless of other weapons.

So, a devilfish can move 6"and fire everything, or have a multi-tracker to fire everything after a 12" move.:smallbiggrin:

[Cheesegear]

Now is probably a good time to point out that gun drones have a clause allowing them to shoot at their own BS from a vehicle at any time, regardless of other weapons.

Over-Ridden in the FAQ.

Q: Can Gun Drones mounted on a vehicle still fire if the vehicle is Shaken, Stunned, moved too fast, or isn't allowed to fire its weapons for any other reason?
A: No. Gun Drones mounted on a vehicle may only fire if the vehicle is allowed to fire at least one weapon.

...Wait. Crap. I misread the answer. I now understand that it means "If a vehicle can fire one weapon - any weapon - it can fire Gun Drones too."


So, a devilfish can move 6"and fire everything, or have a multi-tracker to fire everything after a 12" move.:smallbiggrin:

*Facepalm* Multi-Trackers on vehicles work differently to on 'Suits. I kind of skimmed over them because I already knew what they did from the Infantry section.

This changes everything.

Move 12". Disembark passengers. FIRE EVERYTHING!
...Devilfish Army of Doom rears it's ugly awesome head. I get it now. I get it.

Hang on...Hammerheads can take this upgrade too...
...With Target Lock...
*Jaw Drop*

Nope. Still not my 'favourite' from The 5.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

ABFP on a commander can be funny when you stick him in a smallish unit of (Fast attack) gun drones - relatively cheap firepower unit (and since gun drones also have jetpacks - wizz out of cover and then back in).

Piranha's are probably a bit overcosted as the models are fairly long so can be used well to screen FW or kroot from assault - remember, screening tau from assualt with cheapish skimmers = win (even if they are destroyed they count as terrain and if not the enemy can't physically get past them so...)

Shield drone > generators. The hits you want an invun against normally cause ID so you only get one chance at saving anyway so you might as well have failed saves meaning that a useless drone dies instead of mister weapon platform (if going with ablative gun drones you don't need either invun)

[edit] also hardwired drone controller means they don't eat up a valuable slot

Short ranged weapons on battlesuits - they can move 6" in the assault phase so its not that bad (especially if you have screening vehicles or difficult terrain in place)

Also - your hatred of kroot. Kroot kick out more firepower vs infantry per point then firewarriors, can infiltrate and can beat swarm armies (assuming you're charging or in cover) in assault.

Consider buying a 20 strong unit and sitting in in cover near your home objective. 20 Rapid firing bolter-equivalents isn't something to look down on, especially for 7 points a model. Only 140points for 20 bolters. If you ignore they mediocre combat potential and focus on their shooting ability they seem much more reasonable. They are not an assault unit.

[Cheesegear]

ABFP on a commander can be funny when you stick him in a smallish unit of (Fast attack) gun drones - relatively cheap firepower unit (and since gun drones also have jetpacks - wizz out of cover and then back in).

Maybe. Seems like a waste of resources when you get to a certain point in the game (1500+). I'll give it a shot in lower point games and see how it checks out.


Shield drone > generators. The hits you want an invun against normally cause ID so you only get one chance at saving anyway so you might as well have failed saves meaning that a useless drone dies instead of mister weapon platform (if going with ablative gun drones you don't need either invun)

Good point.


Short ranged weapons on battlesuits - they can move 6" in the assault phase so its not that bad

It's still asking for trouble. And I wouldn't do it often. Maybe Pathfinders with EMP Grandes or Stealth Teams with Fusion Guns could do a better job? I don't like putting my HQ units that close to danger.


20 Rapid firing bolter-equivalents isn't something to look down on, especially for 7 points a model. Only 140points for 20 bolters.

Except that they aren't Bolters. Bolters are AP5 and kill Guardsmen. Kroot Rifles are AP6 and do not kill Guardsmen. Guardsmen, on the return fire, will kill all Kroot because Kroot don't get a save. Not even against Flashlights. Kroot also specifically only work (better) in forests or woods. Not behind barricades, in buildings, etc. Where you'd normally put a shooting unit.

A T3, no save unit, works best in cover you say? Oh...Hello Flamers...Didn't see you there...

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Quote:
20 Rapid firing bolter-equivalents isn't something to look down on, especially for 7 points a model. Only 140points for 20 bolters.
Except that they aren't Bolters. Bolters are AP5 and kill Guardsmen. Kroot Rifles are AP6 and do not kill Guardsmen.

My bad - mis-remembering krootrifle ap
Anyway, imagine how effective they are vs Orcs and Nid's


Quote:
Short ranged weapons on battlesuits - they can move 6" in the assault phase so its not that bad
It's still asking for trouble. And I wouldn't do it often. Maybe Pathfinders with EMP Grandes or Stealth Teams with Fusion Guns could do a better job? I don't like putting my HQ units that close to danger.

HQ units I agree totally - too expensive and not effective enough for the risk

Flamers are cheap - picture a relatively cheap battlesuit loadout - Twin linked missile pods (or plasma gun for a few more points) and flamer. No need for MT as if you're close enough to use the flamer you want to use the flamer. Vs those targets you want to use the PLgun or MP, the flamer won't really affect them much. If I remember correctly flamers are 1 guard worth of pts. Making a platform for a twinlinked gun cost 6 guard + gun and you have a flamer too (also, flamers are good at dealing with enemy outflankers and especially deepstrikers). I agree with you about the fusion gun - As the tau already have quite a bit of ap1 tank popping goodness what's the point?

[Cheesegear]

Anyway, imagine how effective they are vs Orcs and Nid's

Not very. Orks and 'Nids can take it due to sheer numbers or multi-wound/high Toughness/good save units. Kroot only have BS3 after all. Also, both Orks and 'Nids are (usually) counting as Fearless, and, because they're unlikely to run, on their turn, they Assault. Since they are either Orks or 'Nids, or generally just 'not Kroot', they should win.

Unless you fire all your Tau guns at the same unit of Orks/'Nids as well and wipe out the whole unit. But, it's the other five or six units you've got to look out for. :smallwink:

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Since they are either Orks or 'Nids, or generally just 'not Kroot', they should win.
Math hammering it they beat a 30 man Ork squad if they are in cover, a 20 man Ork squad if not. vs Nid's they lose if out of cover win if in cover.
They are not as bad as everyone make out. Sure they suck but they are only (2 guard -3)pts each with infiltrate.
They are the same as a Ork with +1 I in subsequent rounds of combat (S4 instead of T4).

[Copper8642]

Figured I'd throw in my limited experience with Tau.

Ejection System might save you from the enemy gaining a kill point. That's the theory behind, I think. Yes, it's useless.

Iridium Armor is also, 95% of the time, not worth it. The extra point to your armor save is not as useful as the mobility of that extra 6" jump. You will roll a 1 whenever you need to escape.

Someone covered shield generator versus shield drone.

Retro Thrusters and Failsafe Detonator, not the greatest...

I know it's been covered, but twin-linked weapons don't need the multi-tracker, and you pay "Y" for both.

Yes, Targetting Arrays are your main system. However, the Stabilization System is not such a terrible idea for broadsides. Yes, a 75% chance to hit is perfect, but the option of movement can help. A team leader can take both (but then if he has a squad with him, they need one or the other, so not that great).

Stealth Teams can infiltrate ahead with marker drones. I think you picked up on it, but Marker Drones with Crisis or Stealth suits are relentless, drones with infantry are not. Also fun, a Stealth team leader with a targeting array, a multi-tracker, and a markerlight can fire a markerlight as BS4 (better than BS3!) and still fire his gun. Of course, then you need to give the rest of his team support systems too, and Targeting arrays just aren't efficient for a whole squad. Single Gun Drones can be cheap.

Fire Warriors, you have the idea. Bonding Knives are generally worth it.

Kroot, see picture, they're really only helpful in Dawn of War. The rest of the time... they can kinda of make 2nd rate Fire Warriors, their guns aren't terrible.

I don't know if it's a good reason, but Gun Drones can make that 6" Assault Jump, maybe that's why people might take them over Fire Warriors.

Pathfinders I personally see as better off with the Markerlight/Rail Rifle combination. Yes, they can disembark during scouting.

Vespids... also confuse me.

Sniper Drones I've never had a good experience with. On paper it looks good, so maybe the issue is me, however.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Sniper drones are a heavy support choice aren't they?
Hammerheads>>Snipers
Broadsides>>Snipers
Skyray>>Snipers

Also Crisis suits do the sniper teams job better (minus the pinning) and can do the job on the move

[edit:] also re: piranha's - fast missiles that can be called in by markerlight (guarenteed flank/rear shot + objective nabber + assault blocker). They work incredibley when meshed with the rest list. That's why they are so expensive.

[Ricky S]

Long post on tau tactics for more information go to tau tactica just type it into google.

The AfPB is worth it on a commander because the high bs will dramatically reduce the scatter. Cyclic ion Blaster is also a good choice due to its high fire rate and potential ap1. However it is generally unadvisable to use them on the same suit unless facing guard equivalent, ie orcs and gaunts.

Shas O or Shas El?
Generally people only use the O in 1500 points or higher but they do give you an extra bs points and and extra wound which can be helpful plus a slightly higher leadership which is nice when attaching to another unit. If you choose the El a targetting array is vital so you can hit on 2+ but it does use up a hard point that could be used for something else. So I cant really decide for you but cater it to your army.

Vectored Reto Thrusters are generally rubbish.

Failsafe detonator is only useful on a bodyguard for farsight where you dont want to lose your possible 8 crisis suit unit. (due to farsight being allowed 1-7 bodyguards. It can be a really scary unit in CC and Shooting but also really expensive)

Iridium armour is useless unless in a Shield O config.

Ejection Systems are a laugh when they work but generally useless

Crisis suits with twin linked weapons become very specialised and focused on their job. Ie twin linked flamers are nasty if you get in range because anything touching the template is hit and if its twinlinked it allows re rolls to wound so against guard equivalent it will obliterate the unit and against marine equivalent it will still inflict a high amount of wounds. Twinlinking is only advisable with flamers, fusion blasters or missile pods. Twin linking burst cannons and plasma rifles is generally not worth it unless you take a hard wired multi tracker and another weapon.

Crisis suits are great with the Jump Shoots Jump technique and are one of the most customisable units in warhammer 40k
some of the configurations are:

Helios: Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle and multi tracker
Great for taking out tanks and heavy infantry such as terminators. Fairly expensive at 62 points per model. and they have to get close to fully utilise their potential

Heatwave: Twin linked flamers and blacksun filter for the cheapest configuration possible at only 34 points each and used correctly are devastating, however they have a very short range

Deathrain:Twin Linked Missile Pods Anti vehicle unit and very accurate usually with a blacksun filter for night fighting or targetting array for even more deadly shooting. 43 points + 3 for blacksun filter or +10 for Targetting array or + 4 points for a flamer to take out those pesky outflanking or deep striking opponents.

Sunforge: Twinlinked fusion blasters for deadly tank hunting with targetting array for more accuracy or blacksun filter if you are light on points same cost as the deathrain

Fire Knife: Plasma rifle and missile pod with multi tracker for the most used configuration in the tau history. With long range attacks and high strength it can be used for almost any role and is great for filling in gaps in your army and really lives up to the name of 'crisis' suit. Fairly expensive at 62 points each

Fire storm: Burst Cannon and Missile Pod with Multi tracker. Now why use this over the fire knife? it cheaper, it has more shots per turn and causes almost as many wounds through sheer weight of firepower and more against guard equivalent. You do have to get a bit close but Jump packs should solve any problems with that. they are my favourite configuration not only because I like burst cannons and missile pods but because they are a nice round 50 points each (which makes army calculations on the fly a lot more simple)

Shield Drones are fantastic and must be definately used if you are facing a lot of ap 1 or 2 weapons with high strength as it stops your suits from being insta killed and provides more wounds to a unit. Whats more is that they have the same save as the unit they are attached to. Which is great if you equip a Shas el or O with iridium armour and 2 shield drones and a shield gen. Shield o configuration which is used to soak up shots.

Firewarriors are great especially when bonded. You should have around four units of fire warriors to hold objectives and provide fire support against enemy infantry and light vehicles.

Kroot are useless unless you are deploying in a wood or jungle and while they are great on the charge they are very weak in protracted fights.

Pathfinders are fantastic and are the cheapest markerlight bearing units in the army. Their devilfish also provides rerolls for deep striking which is vital in a heavy crisis suit army.

Pirahnas are good as a single model for capturing objectives and taking out tanks with the fusion blaster. Make sure you make the most of the flat out rule with the 4+ cover save when you take the objectives in the last turn.

Gun Drones are used as mobile cover and for taking out isolated units. Generally not really worth it as Pathfinders are much better but they do have their niche. Especially to protect Broadsides and you can reverse jump ie out of the way of the line of sight of the broadsides then jump back in front to give them a 4+ cover save. They are also better than kroot in my opinion as a counter attack unit due mainly to the twin linked pulse carbines.

Hammer heads with Railguns are fantastic! Definately get 1 for your army no matter what style you play as they have both a large template blast and a ap1 str 10 shot. Hammer heads also have some fantastic wargear such as the multi tracker to fire as a fast vehicle and the disruption pod. The ion cannon is good against light tanks and meq armies so is only good against a select few armies while the railgun is almost perfect for most situations. Smart Missile Systems should be taken over the burst cannons. Because although they fire more shots they have a shorter range and you need line of sight to the unit. Plus the SMS is not affected by night fighting rules which can be a rude surprise to the opponent.

Broadsides are the best tank hunters in your army and always worth while taking. With twin linked railguns you can be sure to pop enemy tanks early on in the game which is why the Advanced stabilization system is important to allow you to manouvre them into fire positions to stop your opponent from using cover. Shield drones are helpful on this unit but not vital and plasma rifles on broadsides is generally a waste of time as crisis suits are much better at using them.

Sniper Drone Teams are terrible in my opinion but if you take them be sure to take advantage of the 3 for 1 Force allocation slots as singly a sniper team is a waste of a heavy slot.

Sky Rays are great in Markerlight heavy armies. They are generally good on their own but much better with support from pathfinders. The net worked markerlights allow you to fire as defensive weapons so you can move and shoot and because of the special rule for seeker missiles it is possible to fire your entire load in one turn as long as you have some more markerlight hits on the units.

In my armies I always take at least 1 railgun HH and usually two and as soon as I get enough money I want to get a unit of 3 broadsides.

My Army is as follows (yes I know it is not the most efficient but its great against guards orcs and nids.)

Shas'O 150
AFPB, CIB, hardwired multracker, Shield Gen, Shield Drone

Body guard 136 points
2 x Shas vre with plasma rifles, multi trackers, burst cannons

Crisis Suits x 3 160
Fire Storm bonded

Crisis Suits x 3 112
Heatwave bonded

Crisis Suits x 3 148
Sunforge bonded

2 x Firewarriors squads 12 each 240 points

Pathfinders x 4 48- 133 points
Devilfish with disruption pod 85 points

Pirahna 60 points

Hammer head 180 points
with railgun, Smart Missile System, disruption pod target lock and multiracker

Hammer head 180 points
with railgun, Smart Missile System, disruption pod target lock and multiracker

Total 1499

[Irbis]

Guys! I need quick info before buying a gift (box and bitz)!

Can I place termos arms on spess mahreens and vice versa? Meaning, can I take sarge's Power Fist and place it on a termie, while adding termie's Claws on sarge? Or are the arms different size?

I want to buy a few termies, but they must come with a few non-standard weapons, found in marine box. It is more for diorama, than play, so it must be exact, nothing else, and it is easier to grab extra marine than termie bitz.

By the way, why the damned wolves don't have almost any power weapons in terminator box despite starting with them? :smallyuk:

Oh, and votes! Put me for Chaos Batman Marines! But as it doesn't look that they have a chance, can you count me for Tau as I'm the only one trying to vote for them? :smalltongue:

[Voidhawk]

Wow. That's a lot of thoughts right there, most (but not all) of which I agree with.
I won't attempt to answer many right now, but I will point out that due to True LoS in 5th addition, you're no longer able to see past skimmers automatically. Sucks but true. :smallfrown:

What you can do however is buy taller flying bases (or model the Fire Warriors lying down :smalltongue:) so that they can see under the Devilfish anyway. You can also disembark the drones, and then Jetpack them in front of the Fire Warriors, for an assault interceptor/coversave that only applies to your guys.

With Crisis suits, they are 25 points without a gun, but compare that to Nid Warriors, that are 30pts with a gun. Battlesuits are faster, Warriors are better in CC. Battlesuits have a better save, Warriors have more wounds. They are vaguely comparable at least, though of course Warriors are better, what with getting blast weapons and being troops now.

[Dark Faun]

Can I place termos arms on spess mahreens and vice versa?
Terminator arms are bigger, but you can still convert them into regular arms with a little knife work. This is what people who want a Sternguard Veteran with a heavy flamer do.


By the way, why the damned wolves don't have almost any power weapons in terminator box despite starting with them? :smallyuk:
The answer here seems to be "suck it up and start converting!"

[Irbis]

That's what the person who gets this will do, but I need to know which bitz I'm taking before tomorrow morning.

Ok, termies work on sm's. How about the other way around? Sarge's sword arm? Will it be tiny on termie?

[Dark Faun]

They're only slightly smaller, so it shouldn't be too difficult, though you might need some green stuff to fill the gap between the regular shoulders and the Terminator shoulder pads.

[Irbis]

Um... okay. Thanks. BTW, does anyone have a photo of both arms side by side? Any differences in gloves, plates, markings, etc?

[crazedloon]

My biggest suggestion for tau (I will probably comment more at a later time) Is broadsides must have shield drones.

you take a unit of 3 and make it a unit of 9 all with 2+ armor saves and majority of them have 4+ invulnerable. Your broadsides if deployed well should not need to move. Most of their targets (i.e. tanks) will have a higher maneuverability than them so a 6 inch move will not be able to gain them any better of a view than no move at all.

Remember with all your units that if you are using your marker light correctly you should be shooting at bs 4 if not bs 5 and negating the majority of cover saves.

also shas'os an be used to hold up melee units if they have irridium armor feel no pain and a shield generator. I have had mine hold units for entire games because wounds would just not stick. (and he sucks to much to hurt the other unit :smalltongue:)

[Malachite]

Kroot have a terminal case of the badness. ...
I know if I end up taking Tau on March 1st, I'll never use these guys. Ever.

You're missing the point of Kroot. Kroot are best used as cheap screening squads that take a charge, fold, and give your Fire Warriors another turn to rapid fire the assaulters to death. Their job is to die "for the Greater Good" (by which read: "instead of us!").

Give them some hounds and they can be more competitive in CC too - hounds attack, take the hits back, then Kroot attack unharmed - but then you're starting to change their use. Honestly, contrary to popular belief they can be very useful, you just have to realise that they aren't assault marines to be thrown into the fray at first opportunity, they're support units.

[Winterwind]

Regarding Kroot - while Kroot are kinda suckish, Kroot Hounds are pretty good. For 142 points, you can have a unit consisting of 10 Kroot and 12 Hounds, giving you a total of 66 WS4 S4 attacks on an assault, or 44 if you get assaulted, more than half of which happen at initiative 5 - i.e., before, for instance, marines. That's enough to tear much, much more expensive units to shreds. Even Khornate Berserkers will be torn apart if such a Kroot unit gets the charge on them.


Oh, and I'd like to change my vote from Alaitoc Eldar to Saim-Hann Eldar (while I'd still rather see Alaitoc Eldar in play, it's pretty evident Alaitoc won't make the race, and I think I'm more interested in any Eldar than Tau).

[evisiron]

For the upcoming Owlcon tournament, I recently stuffed 17 lootas (squads of 8 and 9) into an Ork list to bring it to 2000 points. I have not had the game time to test them fully, and was hoping for a bit of advice.

I gathered the basics of
-stick them in cover
-keep LoS open
-keep them far back
-prioritise light tanks and High T/4+ save models

The list itself is still mobs of slugga boys, a BW with Ghaz and some Nobs, some walkers and a trukk load of boys.

Are there any finer points I am missing? Any tips or tricks that could be shared?
Is there a better way to use them?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Are there any finer points I am missing? Any tips or tricks that could be shared?
Is there a better way to use them?

Splitting the squads takes up an extra Elites slot and gives you another kill point. I wouldn't advise doing it, myself, but if you're not using the slot and willing to risk the KP, well then okay.

Also, if you're running footslogging boyz then it's probably advisable to make them Shoota Boyz. 60 S4 shots is not to be sniffed at, even at BS2.

[Cheesegear]

Generally people only use the O in 1500 points

Really? Only in 1500? Outside of 500 points, I can't see any reason not to take the Shas'O.


Twin linking burst cannons and plasma rifles is generally not worth it unless you take a hard wired multi tracker and another weapon.

Sure, why not? :smallamused:


Deathrain:Twin Linked Missile Pods Anti vehicle unit and very accurate

For lower point games, I might have to go with this one.


Sunforge: Twinlinked fusion blasters for deadly tank hunting

Nah. Not for regular Crisis Teams. The range on the 'Deathtrain' is more helpful in my eyes. As well as being much more useful vs. Infantry.


Plasma rifle and missile pod with multi tracker for the most used configuration in the tau history [...] Fairly expensive at 62 points each

62 points each is getting pretty nuts. '186 for a unit' doesn't sound too bad. But, that 'unit' is only 3 models.


Fire storm: Burst Cannon and Missile Pod with Multi tracker.

Much better.


Firewarriors are great especially when bonded. You should have around four units of fire warriors to hold objectives and provide fire support against enemy infantry and light vehicles.

My usual army plan is
2 Troops for 500 points (mandatory), and 1 Troop unit for every 500 points after that.
1000, 3 Troops.
1500, 4 Troops.
2000, 5 Troops.
2500, my eventual end-plan will have 6 Troops units if I follow how I normally build an army. Which I will.


Pirahnas are good as a single model for capturing objectives contesting objectives and taking out tanks with the fusion blaster getting killed.

Fixed. Piranhas may never capture objectives on two counts.

1. Only Troops are scoring units.
2. Vehicles never count as scoring units.
('Land Speeders as Troops' is usually a huge deal for most people just starting Ravenwing. Until they check the rulebook...:smallsigh:)

Second, a Piranha with Fusion Blaster is just as bad as a Land Speeder with Multi-Melta. It just shouldn't be done. There are more reliable and resilient tank hunters you should use instead.


Hammer heads with Railguns are fantastic! Definately get 1 for your army no matter what style you play

Experience has taught me that if you take a 'Heavy' Tank like a Hammerhead, it's going to die in Turn 1 or 2. Because your opponent will poop their pants and FIRE EVERYTHING! at it. So, I'll be taking two. :smallwink:


Plasma rifles on broadsides is generally a waste of time as crisis suits are much better at using them.

...What happens when you play against an army with little-to-no vehicles and the Broadsides finish their job on Turn 2? I think Plasma Rifles on Broadsides is a good idea. Crisis Suits may be 'better' at it, but, it means Broadsides wont suck when they're about to be Assaulted by Infantry. Such as the usual Artillery Attackers like Outflankers (esp. Wolf Scouts) or Deep Striking units.


Sniper Drone Teams are terrible in my opinion but if you take them be sure to take advantage of the 3 for 1 Force allocation slots as singly a sniper team is a waste of a heavy slot.

Yeah. I get that. And I was planning on taking 3 Teams. But, apparently I shouldn't even do that. :smallconfused: :smallfrown:


In my armies I always take at least 1 railgun HH and usually two and as soon as I get enough money I want to get a unit of 3 broadsides.

I think that's my plan if Sniper Teams are as bad as people seem to think they are.


2 x Firewarriors squads 12 each 240 points


Firewarriors are great especially when bonded. You should have around four units of fire warriors to hold objectives and provide fire support against enemy infantry and light vehicles.

Hypocrisy is awesome! :smallwink:

Also, *Facepalm* at Markerlights being Heavy weapons. So, Fire Warriors should be taking Gun Drones? Fire Warriors coming out of a Devilfish have 2 GDs, plus 2 GDs from the Devilfish.

And that's where the 1/3 Carbines come in. As I think the 1/2 Carbines is for units without Drones and/or Seeker Missile 'Fish.

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 5
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 1
Tau | Devilfish | 9
Tyranids | Warriors | 6
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

It seems like every time someone votes for Eldar or Tyranids to help them 'catch up', someone else votes for Tau.

[EleventhHour]

Tyranids. I want to see CG's Gribbly.

...*pokes the Eldar & Misc voters*

Come on, we'll overtake the Tau by combining forces. >.> Stupid Sandfish

[Cheesegear]

I want to see CG's Gribbly.

...Taking things out of context is great...:smallwink:

[13_CBS]

Regarding Kroot - while Kroot are kinda suckish, Kroot Hounds are pretty good. For 142 points, you can have a unit consisting of 10 Kroot and 12 Hounds, giving you a total of 66 WS4 S4 attacks on an assault, or 44 if you get assaulted, more than half of which happen at initiative 5 - i.e., before, for instance, marines. That's enough to tear much, much more expensive units to shreds. Even Khornate Berserkers will be torn apart if such a Kroot unit gets the charge on them.

I don't play the table top game, so I might be being a bother here, but...would it be possible to make an all-Kroot Tau army using either 4th or 5th edition Codex rules? How effective would it be?

According to the Lexicanum, it looks like you'll be need to take...

HQ: ?

Elites: No elites.

Troops: X Kroot Carnivores

Fast Attack: X Kroot Hounds

Heavy Support: X Krootox

So it's sorely lacking in vehicles, no elites, and possibly no HQ (IIRC, though, I thought there was a unique Kroot character somewhere...maybe 4th edition?)

[Timberwolf]

Mind if I add a vote for Tau ?

Variety is the spice of life after all and you already know how to do the whole "bikes n'snipers" thing.

Plus, on a slightly selfish level, I like tanks and I'd be interested to see what he does with the modelling side of it.

(yes, coming from the person who was all set to go hdeous assault Blood Angel with all the infantry that would have involved before the news of a new codex made them decide to wait.)

[Archetype-]

Yo, just thought I'd drop by and swap my vote from same old Space Elf Flying Circus to Big Fighty Bugs of Nommin'.

Now... <glances at clock and notes it's dinner time> Well, time for food and plotting how I'm spending my tax return. Namely, tanks.

Though I may want to make a secondary force just for laughs... Something like Orks or Daemons.

-Archetype

[Closet_Skeleton]

So it's sorely lacking in vehicles, no elites, and possibly no HQ (IIRC, though, I thought there was a unique Kroot character somewhere...maybe 4th edition?)

3rd edition. He was also a games day mini so he'll never be updated.

[Erloas]

I'll put in a vote for the 'Nids, mostly to get a better look at what the new ones can actually do and because I already play Eldar, nothing for me to see there.

[Winterwind]

I don't play the table top game, so I might be being a bother here, but...would it be possible to make an all-Kroot Tau army using either 4th or 5th edition Codex rules? How effective would it be?

According to the Lexicanum, it looks like you'll be need to take...

HQ: ?

Elites: No elites.

Troops: X Kroot Carnivores

Fast Attack: X Kroot Hounds

Heavy Support: X Krootox

So it's sorely lacking in vehicles, no elites, and possibly no HQ (IIRC, though, I thought there was a unique Kroot character somewhere...maybe 4th edition?)Actually, regular Kroot, Kroot Hounds and Krootox are all Troop choices, which even form joint units (so you can have all three in the same unit).

The problem is, at least with current rules (I don't know if an older codex maybe gave them better options), they would lack several things. First of all, no HQ. Second, no powerweapons or high AP weapons; while they can kill regular marines via mass of attacks in close combat, things like terminators might be... difficult. Third, no good anti-tank weapons - Land Raiders and Monoliths would be literally impervious to their weapons, most tanks would be very difficult to damage if not shooting at their rear, and the only weapon capable of doing even would be on the Krootox, which are horribly overpriced, if you ask me. Fourth, no transports, no jump troops, no bikes - they could infiltrate, but would be rather immobile otherwise (especially as their weapons are Rapid Fire, not Assault).

In summary, I don't think it would work at all. There's just too much that Kroot alone cannot do, at least when going with the Kroot from the Tau codex only.

[Tome]

I'm interested in seeing Tau. :smallbiggrin:

I've been thinking of starting up a Tau army of my own, and it might be interesting to see what Cheesegear does with it.

*Goes back to lurking*

[Shas aia Toriia]

The problem with the Tau is that I can already gurantee you what most of the list will be - Fire Warriors with devilfish, Hammerheads, Crisis suits.

The end.

[Ricky S]

Haha yes I am a bit of a hypocrite but that is mainly to real world restrictions on money. Otherwise I would have far more units of cheaper things rather than spending quite a lot on each. I also use my fire warriors in such a way that they manage to survive to hold the objective, mainly just put them in cover and go to ground whenever i get shot at. I leave the killing to the other units in my army, not ideal but $100 for two more units is crazy.

Yes you are right you dont auto matically have LOS these days but as long as you use a high stand you'll be fine.

Hammerheads are good at 1500 points but once you get to 2000-2500 points you really need more railguns hence the broadsides. Because when you get to that amount of points you do not need the submunitions blast due to other units in your army taking up the slack.

Oops yes, pirahnas for Contesting objectives! I dont really use them for tank hunting that much its just that they only add another 3 pulse rifle rounds which i find rather useless. Mine is for contesting objectives last turn or only if the occasion presents itself to take out an exposed vehicle. Otherwise I just keep it behind cover for most of the game. Or sometimes shield other units...

Thats why you have kroot or gun drones to take the assault then blast the **** out of them when its your shooting. Usually these types of units are weak and small so its not too hard to kill them with a round of shooting. Also you only get 2 shots with the plasma rifle if they are within 12 inches I find the smart missile system to be a much better alternative and rather a lot cheaper too. Plus in larger games you spread out your broadsides for a larger LOS to potential enemy tanks and it doesnt really matter if a single unit is assaulted. Plus they usually do very well in combat due to the 2+ armour save and drones really help. Well that is just my opinion, the main thing I hate about equipping them with plasma rifles is that you have to be a lot closer to benefit from it and I hate using them aggressivley because their main advantage is their extreme range. Sure they may run out of the best targets for them but then I just use them to smear elites and heavily armoured units across the battlefield

Thats why equipping your Hammerhead with a disruption pod is so helpful because it cuts in half the amount of anti armour fire you will recieve. Plus putting HH on a low base will help it hide behind cover then roll out to blast units.

Sniper drones are good if they have no tanks or light vehicles only (like dark elder) otherwise I would stick with broadsides and HH

Like everything in every army certain units have niches that cannot be filled by another but they may not be the best unit for the job against all armies. That is why building a balanced army is greatly debated as everyones opinion always changes.

[Copper8642]

One bit of advice is that Tau seem to have a bit of a problem with Terminators and other such opponents. Thus, while Missile Pods are definitely great pieces of weaponry and are highly recommended, a few fusion blasters can help with the tank hunting and then be turned against any 2+ save enemies you might have should the need arise. Railguns generally have more important targets, and plasma guns, while you'll probably have a couple, never seem to be enough (at least for me).

Also, yes, Markerlights are Heavy, that's why having them as part of a of Crisis/Stealth Suit Team is great for making them relentless.

[Oslecamo]

Somewhat late but

This. I have a friend who regularly uses a winged Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder flying alongside his Khornate Raptors (said friend is also strongly tempted to go with Beasts of Chaos... allied with Khorne) in his games. He's had a lot of success with said Lord, so it works for him. I've suggested to him at least once to put him on a Juggernaut instead so he can get those attacks at S5.


Well, he must be pretty lucky then, because the Khorne Lord shold go emo in roughly 1/3 of the assault phases, as a roll of 1 on any of the extra dices makes him stop. And with wings he's costing a whooping 160 points.


I'm the kind of person who rolls 1s all the time with a d6, so I wouldn't really risk it, but if you're feeling lucky, then yes, demon weapons can shine.

[Archetype-]

Well, he must be pretty lucky then, because the Khorne Lord shold go emo in roughly 1/3 of the assault phases, as a roll of 1 on any of the extra dices makes him stop. And with wings he's costing a whooping 160 points.

This friend of mine is a true disciple of the Blood God, and the dice favor him for doing Khorny things. He'll also deep strike him (fairly regularly) alongside at least 5 Raptors of Khorne. The Raptors get mauled rather quickly by whatever guns are at hand, but the Lord always gets stuck in and tears stuff apart. He's a very bold player. It's also not uncommon for him to take Kharn alongside a large squad of footslogging Berzerkers.

As much as I do so (at least in my head), there's not really much Mathhammering done around here. We play more to the fluff of our armies than anything else.

-Archetype

[Cheesegear]

As much as I do so (at least in my head), there's not really much Mathhammering done around here.

MathHammering is pointless anyway. Which way you pick up the dice, how you roll the dice, and how many dice you roll (how often they bump into each other) will all affect the outcome of the dice.

MathHammer also implies that your dice are perfect. Most dice aren't perfect. But, most of the time you're rolling so many dice that it really doesn't make a difference. Unless all your dice are bad, and they are all weighted the same way.
(Dice can be weighted towards sixes you know :smallwink:)

Not to mention which dice you use. I, personally, have 20 Red dice, and 10 Black dice. I'm not rolling the same dice every time. And I can't determine which dice are bad and which aren't.

Also, all probability mathematics is theory. And theory only. There is no such thing as 'perfect probability' unless you start stacking the odds. And, unless the stack is 100% or nil, 'probability' doesn't work. Unless you have the time and/or patience to do the exact same thing, the exact same way...Infinity times.

Probability is like Statistics; All lies.


We play more to the fluff of our armies than anything else.

Not sure what that has to do with MathHammer, but, there's nothing stopping anyone from having powerful and fluffy armies at the same time.

For example; My Hawk Lords Chapter has a very good reason for using loads of Scouts with Rifles, and a very good reason for using truckloads of Bikes for the Biker Throne.

Crimson Fists are meant to take as many units of Sternguard as they can.

Most (effective) Dark Eldar armies - despite looking all the same - fit the default fluff behind the Dark Eldar perfectly. Fast and brutal.

Space Wolves. That is all.

Imperial Guard are supposed to have masses upon masses upon masses of Infantry.

Powerful Armies and Fluffy Armies are not mutually exclusive. The Stormwind Fallacy as it applies to WH40K.

[Archetype-]

MathHammering is pointless anyway. Which way you pick up the dice, how you roll the dice, and how many dice you roll (how often they bump into each other) will all affect the outcome of the dice.

Kind of reminds me of this one gaming store. They have a section where pretty much nothing is kept, but there's a sign that says something like "Graveyard of Sucky Dice." If your dice are failing you consistantly, the store owner will let you chuck the offending plastic RNG in question up into it.

Many of my dice should be in said graveyard. They do not roll averages, even in the long runs. I've gone from being on fire to masses of suckitude.


MathHammer also implies that your dice are perfect. Most dice aren't perfect. But, most of the time you're rolling so many dice that it really doesn't make a difference. Unless all your dice are bad, and they are all weighted the same way.
(Dice can be weighted towards sixes you know :smallwink:)

Fun fact for those who are interested. Yahtzee dice are weighted to roll fives most of the time.


Not to mention which dice you use. I, personally, have 20 Red dice, and 10 Black dice. I'm not rolling the same dice every time. And I can't determine which dice are bad and which aren't.

I've personally stopped trying to figure it out. I'm convinced that Tzeentch has sent random Horrors to possess my dice just for laughs. Also because he wants videos of me blowing up my own Russes and Guardsmen on You Tube.


Also, all probability mathematics is theory. And theory only. There is no such thing as 'perfect probability' unless you start stacking the odds. And, unless the stack is 100% or nil, 'probability' doesn't work. Unless you have the time and/or patience to do the exact same thing, the exact same way...Infinity times.

Probability is like Statistics; All lies.

No one has the patience to test that, at least around here. Even in the tourneys we hold at club, we're more likely to bring our casual lists than anything else.

I never took anything beyond Algebra in high school, and you can probably guess how much of it I recall. The only math I do for Warhammer is making sure my list is within the points limit and pricing out models. Anything more hurts my head.



Not sure what that has to do with MathHammer, but, there's nothing stopping anyone from having powerful and fluffy armies at the same time.

What I meant to say is we don't have any power gamers around here (well, except for this one Death Guard player...). I am sorry if I was unclear.


Imperial Guard are supposed to have masses upon masses upon masses of Infantry.

Not gonna say anything on that here. This is the tactics thread, not the fluff one.


Powerful Armies and Fluffy Armies are not mutually exclusive. The Stormwind Fallacy as it applies to WH40K.

I always assumed it applied to tabletop games in general. In any case, I wasn't trying to say that they were mutually exclusive. At least, I don't think I did. My English has been known to fail me at least half a dozen times a day. :smallfrown:

[Ricky S]

One bit of advice is that Tau seem to have a bit of a problem with Terminators and other such opponents. Thus, while Missile Pods are definitely great pieces of weaponry and are highly recommended, a few fusion blasters can help with the tank hunting and then be turned against any 2+ save enemies you might have should the need arise. Railguns generally have more important targets, and plasma guns, while you'll probably have a couple, never seem to be enough (at least for me).

Also, yes, Markerlights are Heavy, that's why having them as part of a of Crisis/Stealth Suit Team is great for making them relentless.

Well thats why the Fire Storm configuration was made. Because it is cheaper using a burst cannon than a plasma rifle and you get usually 2 shots more (unless in rapid fire range) for a total of 5, the idea is to force the opponent to roll as many saves as possible and they will most likely fail a few and in a squad of 5 that means most of the unit is gone. I generally go with the volume of fire because it is cheaper. Plus you can always just use mass pulse rifle shots to overwhelm their armour. Also it is only one unit so unless you are facing a pure terminator army you should be alright.

Markerlights are great but really expensive when you consider the 30 points for a marker drone or +10 for a firewarrior shas ui. If you want marker lights the best way to go is pathfinders as it is the only unit to give you multiple markerlight shots. Plus the pathfinder devilfish is fantastic for deep striking units as it allows a re roll to scatter.

What do people think about this idea?

An entire Imp Guard army using valkyries. I dont have the codex on me and correct me if I am wrong but cant you have up to 9! in a single army? If so that would make for an extremely mobile army and would really cool on the table top. I would totally paint it like they did with the huey's in the vietnam war. I think it would be fantastic but also on the expensive side costing $1000+ and Im not sure how good yan army like that would be. Any advice on making an army like this would be appreciated.

[Cheesegear]

An entire Imp Guard army using valkyries. I dont have the codex on me and correct me if I am wrong but cant you have up to 9! in a single army? If so that would make for an extremely mobile army and would really cool on the table top. I would totally paint it like they did with the huey's in the vietnam war. I think it would be fantastic but also on the expensive side costing $1000+ and Im not sure how good an army like that would be. Any advice on making an army like this would be appreciated.

Somebody gave Valkyries a Transport Capacity as a joke. I'm sure of it. Since they can't be Dedicated Transports, your units will have to spend the beginning of the game on the board rather than in 'their' vehicle.

Basically, Valkyries and Vendettas try to do two things at once. Are they a gunship fielding support weapons, or are they a Transport vehicle?

As you may or may not know, a Valkyrie has three weapons. None of which are Defensive (<S4). Meaning you can move a whole 6" a turn...As a Transport vehicle...Go team?

Unless you swap your Hellstrikes (which are One Shot weapons) for Multiple Rocket Pods. Making the Valkyrie 130 points. The same cost as a Vendetta.

But, MRPs are only AP6. But, yeah, churning out two Large Blasts a turn will work on Orks or (some) 'Nids. But, that's about it.

Also, for the price of a Valkyrie, you can have three Chimeras.
A squad of 3 Valkyries...Or 9 Chimeras?
...Or 6 Infantry Squads with special and Heavy weapons?

Vendettas are better. Unfortunately, the Valkyrie kit doesn't come with extra Vendetta Lascannons. Hope you've got plenty of spare Lascannon sprues. As to make it look 'right', you need 6 Lascannons (3 TLinked).
But, Vendettas are even more a joke as a Transport vehicle than Valkyries. As none of their weapons are Defensive, nor do they have the option to have Defensive weapons (like Valkyries).

Also, Transporting Valkyries lends itself to fielding Veterans with multiple Assault weapons rather than scores and scores of Infantry Squads.

In any case, it's doable. But, sub-optimal and very expensive as you've already figured out. I'm fine with two Vendettas who never transport anything because that's a terrible idea.

[Erloas]

MathHammering is pointless anyway. Which way you pick up the dice, how you roll the dice, and how many dice you roll (how often they bump into each other) will all affect the outcome of the dice.

MathHammer also implies that your dice are perfect. Most dice aren't perfect. But, most of the time you're rolling so many dice that it really doesn't make a difference. Unless all your dice are bad, and they are all weighted the same way.
(Dice can be weighted towards sixes you know :smallwink:)

Not to mention which dice you use. I, personally, have 20 Red dice, and 10 Black dice. I'm not rolling the same dice every time. And I can't determine which dice are bad and which aren't.

Any player with much experience does mathhammer, but probably not always directly.
Knowing a space marine with a lascannon is better at taking out a vehicle compared to an ork with a rokkit launcher is mathhammer, just as such a basic level as to be overlooked as such.

Mathhammer also has nothing to do with how perfect your dice roll, all it does is give you a basic idea of what you can expect in a given situation, but you also know that the improbably isn't impossible.
Everyone knows a greater deamon of khorne should tear up a unit of fire warriors in close combat, but everyone also knows that one exception that happened where the Tau won instead. Its not a failure of mathhammer, it is in fact supporting it, because if you are interpretting your mathhammer correctly you know that the greater deamon will usually win by a fair amount, but you also know that there is that rare occurance where things go wrong.

It of course can't help with weighted dice, but any randomly distrubuted weighted dice it will work with. One dice might roll ones more often, but chances are another is going to roll 6s more often. As such it works much better with a larger set of dice. Rolling 2-3 dice will not show patterns very quickly, but rolling 30-40 will more often.

Of course if you have a set of dice that are really off and always roll high or low consistantly as a set then there isn't much that can be done, and really playing with known bad dice is akin to cheating.

As it is I've completely got away from the smaller dice because I've seen over and over again where people show them to be less balanced then larger dice. There is a reason casinos use the dice they do, they actually have the money and interest to test dice designs thoroughly.

Simply put, knowing what to expect from a unit in any given situation is mathhammer, some people can do it via math directly but most people do it via experience.

[Zorg]

Somebody gave Valkyries a Transport Capacity as a joke. I'm sure of it. Since they can't be Dedicated Transports, your units will have to spend the beginning of the game on the board rather than in 'their' vehicle.

Erm, the only limit is if a transport is a dedicated one only the parent unit can start in it - a non-dedicated transport can start with any unit inside.

[Keris]

Well, the possible discontinuation of the =][= armies has had me grabbing what few boxes my local GW had in stock before they're gone for good. As a result, what was originally planned to be a 'pure' Grey Knights army is rapidly branching out. Could I get some help with planning an army list?

What I have at the moment, much of which is unassembled:
5 Power Armoured Grey Knights
Sisters of Battle
10 w/ Bolters 1 w/ Flamer 1 w/ Storm Bolter Sister Superior with CCW and Plasma Pistol.
Vindicare Assassin
The WH Inquisitor box (Inq. with CCW and Inferno Pistol, 6 man retinue)
DH Inquisitor with Bolter and CCW.
SoB Canoness
Seraphim 6 w/ Bolt Pistols 2 w/ Hand Flamers 2 Superiors with Bolt Pistol and CCW
Land Raider
Dreadnought
Rhinos 3 Rhino Chassis 2 Immolator sprues A Predator sprue A Whirlwind sprue (perhaps as a 'count as' Exorcist?) Forge World Repressor conversion kit.



A very rough list:
Using WH as a base list.
HQ Canoness/Palatine Inquisitor w/ Retinue and a Land Raider
Elites Vindicare Assassin
Troops Battle Sisters Squad. Perhaps a second squad as well? Should I take dedicated transports? Inquitorial Storm Troopers, w/ Shotguns and the Repressor (count as Chimera to avoid IA rules). Are shotguns a complete mistake? Heck, are having ISTs a complete mistake when SoBs only cost 1pt more? If I do go for them, I'll be trying to find some of the old Arbites models for them =P.
Fast Attack 10 strong Seraphim Squad. Dominion Squad in an Immolator Teleporting Grey Knights (Allied)
Heavy Support Exorcist.

This uses all except my models except the Dreadnought, and only requires me to get a squad of ISTs and some Dominions.
How would you recommend outfitting the various squads? What should be dropped/added? What models should I buy first? Any that I should consign to the bitz box/eBay?

[crazedloon]

valkeries can also get missile pods which are S4 large blast (and 2 of them at that) If you ask me that is an awesome support weapon for a transport. Indeed Full armies (vet squads) deployed in them are deadly thanks to their scout move.

[Ninja Chocobo]

An entire Imp Guard army using valkyries. I dont have the codex on me and correct me if I am wrong but cant you have up to 9! in a single army? If so that would make for an extremely mobile army and would really cool on the table top. I would totally paint it like they did with the huey's in the vietnam war. I think it would be fantastic but also on the expensive side costing $1000+ and Im not sure how good yan army like that would be. Any advice on making an army like this would be appreciated.

A fellow at my FLGS does this. He got a flawless victory (tabled with no losses) on an Emperor's Children army in turn 4.
And it happened on turn 4 because he held everything in reserve on turn 1.
Not sure of the ratio of Vendettas to Valkyries in it though.

[Ricky S]

Hmm... it would be cool. But yea from what you've said it seems pretty weak compared to a normal Imp guard army. It is a shame that they are so expensive as well both in points and cash.

What armies do you guys play?
I play tau (if you havent already gotten that from my numerous tau rants :smallbiggrin:)

[Cheesegear]

What armies do you guys play?

Lots. I usually take my armies to 2500 points. But, I can sometimes quit when I get bored. Or, go further when I still feel the army isn't complete.

I have one Space Marine army full of Scouts and Bikes - for the Biker Throne. Somewhere between 2500 and 3000 points.
Space Wolves army at 1750 points represented by my 'Imperial Fists 1st Company'.
1000 points of Blood Angels.

I have 2500 points of 'Inquisition' forces. Primarily a Witch Hunters army.

Under the 3rd Ed. Codex I had 2500 points of Orks. Although I have the 5th Ed. Codex, I've never taken out my collection during 5th Ed.

Under the 3.5 Codex, I had 2500 points of Word Bearers CSM. Since the 4th Ed. Codex they've been split into an under-strength CSM army, and an under-strength Daemons army. I've used my Daemons a few times and have failed miserably. I've been told that's what I should've expected.

1000 points of Necrons.

~500 points of Dark Eldar, as they were one of the 3rd Ed. starter armies and I built up my collection some.

1500 points of Eldar. No specific Craftworld. Pretty generic stuff, in that it looks like an Ulthwé-Biel-Tan hybrid.

2500 points of Imperial Guard. 150 Infantrymen. Plus Command and other squads. The goal was to create an actual Platoon Company (RL Platoon Company strength is 75-200 soldiers). I still don't think I'm finished. :smallamused:

This leaves Tyranids and/or Tau to get. Or I could build up my Dark Eldar, Necrons or Blood Angels.

I had Tyranids. But, I sold them when I was making my Guard army. Around 5 months later, they re-release the 'Nid Codex and it's looking pretty good.

Speaking of;

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 4
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 1
Tau | Devilfish | 11
Tyranids | Warriors | 8
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

10 Days kids.

[IthilanorStPete]

You mean an actual company? That's more the appropriate size...

[Cheesegear]

You mean an actual company? That's more the appropriate size...

That's what I meant.

[Ninja Chocobo]

What armies do you guys play?
I play tau (if you havent already gotten that from my numerous tau rants :smallbiggrin:)

Orks is best, and other catch-phrasery.

[Winterwind]

[...]

Simply put, knowing what to expect from a unit in any given situation is mathhammer, some people can do it via math directly but most people do it via experience.I completely, 100%, agree with this post.

As I've said before, mathhammer won't tell you what will definitely happen in any one particular situation. But it will tell you what is objectively better at any given job - when two shots from a plasmagun will likely be more successful than a single one from a lascannon or vice versa, etc. And picking the optimal tools for any given job is just as much part of tactics as moving units around.


What armies do you guys play?Chaos Space Marines, a warband of allied Black Legion and Emperor's Children forces.


Speaking of;

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 4
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 1
Tau | Devilfish | 11
Tyranids | Warriors | 8
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

10 Days kids.Hmmm... sorry for switching again, but it much looks like Eldar aren't going to make it, and I think I'd rather see Tyranids than Tau. So, please change my vote from Saim-Hann Eldar to Tyranids. Besides, my guess is that the Tyranids are the mysterious army you would actually like to play the most, but refuse to reveal it. :P

[Shas aia Toriia]

What armies do you guys play?

Black Templars. Thought its a pitiful showing, most of it being 3rd ed. models with poor painting jobs. Everytime I keep meaning on going out and getting some more stuff, I discover that I have no money.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Hmmm... sorry for switching again, but it much looks like Eldar aren't going to make it, and I think I'd rather see Tyranids than Tau. So, please change my vote from Saim-Hann Eldar to Tyranids.

Rassum frassum.
Put me down for the same.

[Lycan 01]

I have...

800-ish points of Orks

700-ish points of Imperial Guard


My bro has...

500-ish points of Chaos Space Marines


My friend has...

1050-ish points of Dark Angels/Space Marines

[One Step Two]

What armies do you guys play?


Roughly 2500 points of Marines

And currently in the process of completing my Saim-Hann jetbike army, side-tracked a little by a small points format tournament. Should equate to 2500-3000 points. (I got a bunch of second hand models off a friend and it inflated my army list with a tonne of aspect warriors, woo)


Also, Cheese, since the Eldar don't seem to have enough votes switch me to the 'nids, I wanna see your Warrior Genus army eat face.

[Cheesegear]

Oooh...

The Tally So Far
Army | Description | # of Votes
Saim-Hann Eldar | Jetbikes | 1
Alaitoc Eldar | Rangers | 1
Tau | Devilfish | 11
Tyranids | Warriors | 11
Chaos Space Marines | Night Lords | 0

Nine days left, kids.

...Funny story; I actually know how I can put Tyranid Warriors on Bikes. :smallbiggrin:
...Not that I can actually use them in-game or anything. :smallfrown:


Simply put, knowing what to expect from a unit in any given situation is mathhammer, some people can do it via math directly but most people do it via experience.

Have to disagree here. As Math-Hammer uses hard stats and presents statistical analysis as fact and immutable. Experience is...Not immutable.

Saying absolutely "BS4 hits 50% of the time. S4 will wound 50% of the time. 4+ armour will save 50% of the time. From ten [Bolter] shots, you're going to kill 2.5 models per phase." This is wrong. This is Math-Hammer. Presenting stats to prove what things will do on any given game. Anybody who has played a game of 40K ever, knows that Math-Hammer doesn't work in the slightest. Because there are outside factors working on dice.

"BS4 is usually better than BS3." Is all you can reliably say. "S4 is usually better than S3." This is not Math-Hammer. This is not experience either, rather, it's common sense. Knowing that 'higher = better'. People playing the game for the very first time will pick up on this.

Experience has more to do with tactics and army composition. Knowing that one tank - on it's own - is worthless. Experience is knowing roughly 80-85% of your battles will be against armies that have Bolters and Power Armour (inc. Necrons). etc.

Experience/Common Sense != MathHammer.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

...Funny story; I actually know how I can put Tyranid Warriors on Bikes.
...Not that I can actually use them in-game or anything.

'Counts As' winged Warriors perhaps?

[evisiron]

The airborne IG may not be too rare. A short while ago I read a UK GW article on the website summarising a recent tournament. It mentioned two IG armies faced each other, each with 9 Valykaries/vendettas for a total of 18 on the table.
...I hope my lootas can handle these things. The last thing I need is an almost eldar list backed up with IG tanks and infantry.

As for my armies, in decending order of recent use:
-Orks. 2000pt tourney list painted. 2500 total. My current force and the first army I ever played.
-Chaos: Iron Warriors. 1000 tourney list painted, about 3000 total. Add another 1000 if using Lost and the Damned
-Eldar. 1000 tourney list painted, about 1500 total
-Necrons. 1000 painted
-Tau. 500 points
-Daemon Hunters 1000pts
-Imperial Guard 1000pts
-Space marines 1000pts. Ultramarines awaiting a Iron Warriors paint scheme.

While I have played most armies, many where before the new edition and had a year gap while I wasn't playing at all, so have fallen behind the times with them.

[evisiron]

...Funny story; I actually know how I can put Tyranid Warriors on Bikes. :smallbiggrin:
...Not that I can actually use them in-game or anything. :smallfrown:

I would have no problem with them being Raveners.:smallbiggrin:

[Erloas]

Have to disagree here. As Math-Hammer uses hard stats and presents statistical analysis as fact and immutable. Experience is...Not immutable.

Saying absolutely "BS4 hits 50% of the time. S4 will wound 50% of the time. 4+ armour will save 50% of the time. From ten [Bolter] shots, you're going to kill 2.5 models per phase." This is wrong. This is Math-Hammer. Presenting stats to prove what things will do on any given game. Anybody who has played a game of 40K ever, knows that Math-Hammer doesn't work in the slightest. Because there are outside factors working on dice.

It sounds like you just aren't interpreting the results of mathhammer correctly. Mathhammer says you will average 2.5 wounds, which tells you that shooting against that unit of 10 you are likely to kill a few, but don't be expecting to wipe the unit out and not likely to even cut it in half.

The same way an experienced player knows his unit of 10 tactical marines are going to outshoot a unit of guard with lasguns but that its not going to be enough to take out enough of that unit of boyz in 'eavy armor to make them a non-threat.

Its the same way an experienced player will say banshees are better against SMs then a unit of scorpions. It seems pretty obvious because of the power weapons, but the difference between them isn't that great. You can find that out via experience, but you can get the same thing with a bit of mathhammer as well.

Mathhammering out that it takes an average of 160 lasgun shots to kill an avatar doesn't say you will kill one after that many shots. It does however let you know that it is going to take a huge amount of fire to take him down, to the point where its probably best to target something else with those weapons. Experience will tell you the same thing, it just won't have a number attached to it.


I'm good at figuring averages pretty quickly and it has helped me a huge amount. I can usually look at a set of units and figure out the average wounds before they are done being rolled for, and its usually pretty close. It was what has allowed me to win all but 2 of the first 30-40 games I played against players with a lot more experience. I know tactics and they help a lot, but also knowing what to expect out of a unit without having actually played with it or against it was an easy way to make up for the experience I didn't have before that.
With the experience of some games I don't need to figure out the averages before setting up a fight to know about how much firepower I need to concentrate in a certain area, but it helped early on and it helps when faced with something new as well.

[Lycan 01]

I'm 25 bucks short of an Ork battleforce. :smallbiggrin: If I can just get somebody to buy one of my 360 games, I'll have enough... Or maybe I can mooch it off my dad this weekend. At any rate, my army will be getting a nice boost of Dakka within the next two or so weeks. :smallamused:


Actually, in regards to the 20 Ork boys in the Battleforce, should I split them between Shootas and Sluggas, or just make them all Shootas? (I've already got 20 Sluggas and 10 Shootas, for those who don't know...)

Also, I just realized I'll have an extra Nob left over. What should I do with him? Stick him in with the my Nob Squad (Sluggas and Choppas)? If so, should I give him a Power Klaw, turn his Twin-Linked Shoota into a combi-weapon, or try to convert him into a Painboy? :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

Actually, in regards to the 20 Ork boys in the Battleforce, should I split them between Shootas and Sluggas, or just make them all Shootas? (I've already got 20 Sluggas and 10 Shootas, for those who don't know...)

Huh...Well, what's wrong with 20 Sluggas, 20 Shootas ('Ard Boyz), and the last ten in the Trukk from the Battleforce? :smallconfused:


I'll have an extra Nob left over. What should I do with him? Stick him in with the my Nob Squad (Sluggas and Choppas)? If so, should I give him a Power Klaw, turn his Twin-Linked Shoota into a combi-weapon, or try to convert him into a Painboy? :smallconfused:

Well, I'd consider using him as a 'Free Model', and use him to convert up a Painboy. If you fail, it's no big loss because it's an extra model that you don't really need. If you succeed...Well, you have a Painboy. Grats all 'round.

If you're not comfortable with that, yeah, stick him in your Nobz squad.

[Thatguyoverther]

... yeah, stick him in your Nobz squad.

Am I the only one that thought the last bit there sounded sexual?

[IthilanorStPete]

Am I the only one that thought the last bit there sounded sexual?

Not as bad as "just stick it in your Bitz".

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'm kinda pissed off at some models I don't even have right now. I decided I wanted to write a story based off of a campaign. Problem: I have no army. Solution: VASSAL!

So, it starts with =][= vs 'crons, 500 points, from the perspective of one of the IST sarge's (his unit equipped as Arbites). The story of the battle: Inquisitor Curiotas is investigating the 'crons, and ropes Sarge Ventre into the battle without telling him. Of course, right where it get's interesting, Ventre runs off, and the story doesn't flow if I describe the battle after he's gone. His unit didn't even get a single kill! Shotguns are useless against 'crons. The second unit of IST's where almost as bad: a single kill before being wiped out. The inquisitor's retinue scored a single wound on the 'cron Lord (with a plasma pistol!). But the third unit of IST's, oh they shined (even if they were wiped out). They killed 7 of the first group of 'crons (5 in the first volley, no WBB rolls successful!), routed them, finished off the Lord, and then got themselves wiped out by the last group of 'crons. Why oh why couldn't Ventre stay so i could write about them!

Next battle: 750 pts Necron vs IG outpost garrison. This time, a priest an eviscerator, and a commissar lord a power fist, and make them tag-team the Lord. Hopefully they'll get a wound on him this time. :(

[evisiron]

Not as bad as "just stick the Nob in your Bitz".

Fixed it for you. :smallbiggrin: