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Jergmo
2010-02-10, 05:49 PM
Things to note beforehand:
1) I am not multiclassing into Swordsage. If you have no other input besides "Swordsage", please, find another thread.
2) Monks in this campaign have full BAB, the Defense Bonus variant has been implemented, the character's attributes were based on a 32 pt. buy, Weapon Focus has been improved to also grant +1 damage, and the requirements of Core PRCs have been lowered so as to put them on par with PRCs from splatbooks, which is how the character has a level in Shadowdancer.

The character is an Evil NPC but it's not necessary for the character to be an opponent. If he is, however, I intend for him to be a pain in the backside. I want to optimize his feats and attributes as much as I can.

What he has right now: Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8
6th level human Cobra Strike monk/1 Shadowdancer
Wealth currently undecided - unbuffed AC is 23 (+3 from Dexterity, +3 from Wisdom, +1 from Monk levels, +4 from Defense Bonus, +2 from Dodge enhanced by Cobra Strike). Sadly, characters specialized in feinting/etc. will destroy him, but eh.

Flaws - Solitary Paragon and Bestial Instinct. (No benefits from flanking, instead a -4 penalty to attacks is given against flanked opponents, -2 to all attacks that aren't natural attacks or unarmed strikes).

Feats:
Fixed: Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack (I know Spring Attack is supposed to be a trap for monks, but it saw great use in test battles)
Very hesitant to get rid of: Snap Kick, Intuitive Strike, Martial Study (Additional attack at -2 for all attacks on regular, full, or charge, attacks determined by Wisdom rather than Strength), Martial Study was used to acquire the Cloak of Deception maneuver, which allows you, as a swift action, to acquire Improved Invisibility until the end of your turn, once per encounter.
Others: Weapon Focus(Unarmed), Law Devotion (Once per day as a swift action, gain a +3 profane bonus to either attack rolls or AC, your choice each round, for 1 minute)

Other feats I was looking at: Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack

What say you, Playgrounders? Can the character be optimized, apart from magic items? :smallconfused:

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-02-10, 06:31 PM
What's this defense bonus variant?

JaxGaret
2010-02-10, 06:34 PM
What's this defense bonus variant?

Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm)

Always check d20srd.org first if you have a question.

IMO the Monk should be a D-type class if you're using the Defense Bonus variant. At least a C.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 06:46 PM
Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm)

Always check d20srd.org first if you have a question.

IMO the Monk should be a D-type class if you're using the Defense Bonus variant. At least a C.

That would be a little crazy. That would make this monk's unbuffed AC 27. He's only 7th level!

Riffington
2010-02-10, 06:47 PM
[quote]Spring Attack (I know Spring Attack is supposed to be a trap for monks, but it saw great use in test battles)

Test battles that were one on one? Is his style going to be one-on-one fighting? Also, when he is involved in a battle, is he going to stick around til his opponent dies? Or if the guy's difficult, is he going to take more advantage of Hide in Plain Sight?




IMO the Monk should be a D-type class if you're using the Defense Bonus variant. At least a C.

Well, remember that the Monk gets the Defense Bonus for free, and still gets his Monkbonus and wisdom to AC. So his A is actually better than a D.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 07:04 PM
Test battles that were one on one? Is his style going to be one-on-one fighting? Also, when he is involved in a battle, is he going to stick around til his opponent dies? Or if the guy's difficult, is he going to take more advantage of Hide in Plain Sight?

The test battles were one on one with arguably better opponents, though he's supposed to be able to bring forth havoc among parties as well. And yeah, he takes advantage primarily of Hide in Plain Sight with the Spring Attack, darting in, using Snap Kick to get off two blows, then darting back to a place of hiding.

Boci
2010-02-10, 07:12 PM
The test battles were one on one with arguably better opponents, though he's supposed to be able to bring forth havoc among parties as well. And yeah, he takes advantage primarily of Hide in Plain Sight with the Spring Attack, darting in, using Snap Kick to get off two blows, then darting back to a place of hiding.

You're using ToB, even taking martial stufy, but not the swordsage, whilst employing a tactic embodied by stalker in the night? Okay, your choice.

Spring attack will reduce the number of attacks available to him. Aditionally, you are going to be taking a -20 penalty to hide checks since you just moved and attacked. Fly by attack would be better if you can get a flight speed via raptorian race from races of the wild, angelic wings graft from I think races of eberron or the winged template.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 07:17 PM
Spring attack is static, meaning that whilst your FoB and build will allow you to make 7 attacks from level 16, you are going to be stuck making 2. A maximum of 4 if you invest in two more feats (bounding assualt and rapid blitz, the latter not becoming available until level 18). Aditionally, you are going to be taking a -p20 penalty to hide checks since you just moved and attacked. Fly by attack would be better if you can get a flight speed via raptorian race from races of the wild, angelic wings graft from I think races of eberron or the winged template.

Let's just assume that this guy is a regular old human 'cause half of that made me cringe. What is FoB, crap that's cheesy anyway, and thanks to the monk's bonus speed, the penalty to hide is reduced to -5. Besides, as stated above, the character is 7th level. I don't expect it to get any higher than 10 for this campaign.

Superglucose
2010-02-10, 07:20 PM
Splash one level of fighter, maybe two. The last two levels of Monk suck ass, and splashing moves you to class D and gives you a couple extra feats.

Boci
2010-02-10, 07:21 PM
Let's just assume that this guy is a regular old human 'cause half of that made me cringe. What is FoB, crap that's cheesy anyway,

Furry of blows.


and thanks to the monk's bonus speed, the penalty to hide is reduced to -5.

Okay, not so bad.


Besides, as stated above, the character is 7th level. I don't expect it to get any higher than 10 for this campaign.

Okay, but why does an NPC whose tactic is to stay out of melee have combat reflexes?

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 07:26 PM
Furry of blows.

Okay, not so bad.

Okay, but why does an NPC whose tactic is to stay out of melee have combat reflexes?

Also, drop weapon focus and take weapon finesse, it will give a better attack bonus.

Well, he already has Intuitive Strike - that makes it so he uses Wisdom for his attack rolls. And, durr, sorry, on Flurry of Blows - I forgot to mention I gave him Decisive Strike. Combat Reflexes is required for Shadowdancer.

Boci
2010-02-10, 07:31 PM
Well, he already has Intuitive Strike - that makes it so he uses Wisdom for his attack rolls.

Noticed it, edited out the suggestion.


And, durr, sorry, on Flurry of Blows - I forgot to mention I gave him Decisive Strike.

Decisive strike is equally useless: you need a full round action to use it, and spring attack grants one attack.


Combat Reflexes is required for Shadowdancer.

So, a useless feat and a level for hide in plain sight. Probably an equal trade off.

So number crunching:

By spending a swift action at the beginning of combat, he will be able to make 2 attacks each round, dealing 1d8+1 damage with each. He will be hiding, can be invisible once and has an AC higher than 23. Overall a turtle. Hard to hit, but not much of a threat.

To be a pain in the ass, he needs to have other monsters with him. Either minions or a partner. He also needs something that actually debuffs, like stunning fist or the complete mage variant (sicken on a sucessful save, nausiated on a failed one).

Edit: Alternativly, he could be focused on using spring attack to trip.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 07:34 PM
What if on occasions he were to use Decisive Strike and he had Robilar's Gambit? Decisive Strike doubles damage on all attacks made until your next turn.

Boci
2010-02-10, 07:36 PM
What if on occasions he were to use Decisive Strike and he had Robilar's Gambit? Decisive Strike doubles damage on all attacks made until your next turn.

Yep, but he needs focus. Robilar's gambit won't be available until level 15 with the shadow dancer level, 12 if you go full monk, or 13 if you go monk 11/SD 1/ Fighter 1. Whilst hes using that he has no use for mobility or spring attack (and dodge if hardly going to be noticed), or hide in plain sight, since he will be in melee. Karmiac strike is available earlier, but it is not as affective and requires combat expertise.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-10, 07:38 PM
Ask your DM if you can drop the shadowdancer and become monk2/Psywar X

Boci
2010-02-10, 07:39 PM
Ask your DM if you can drop the shadowdancer and become monk2/Psywar X

He is the DM.



The character is an Evil NPC but it's not necessary for the character to be an opponent. If he is, however, I intend for him to be a pain in the backside. I want to optimize his feats and attributes as much as I can.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 07:40 PM
Oh, right. I meant Karmic Strike, sorry.

Boci
2010-02-10, 07:42 PM
Oh, right. I meant Karmic Strike, sorry.

That drops his unbuffed AC to 19 and will require 2 feats, aditionally will be useless against reach weapon without something like willing deformity and deformity (tall).

Even then, you will be doing 2 attacks for 2d8+2 damage with a +9 bonus, +1 per successful attack off his turn to a maximum of 4. Thats an average of 11 damage per attack, and many will hit the parties melee-ers AC with a +9 to hit ( assuming they do not have reach weapons)? Deft opertunitst will raise the AoO to a +13, making them more accurate, but it will require giving up another feat.

Addtionally, whilst more damaging, this turns your turtle into a suicide bomber. He can take a 5ft step per round, with a lowered AC and no other defenses. He will be outnumbered by the party and die quickly, possibly taking a PC with him if he rolls high.

Ofcourse, this depends a lot on how optimized your PCs are. If you can give us their information we can help you better.

Bottom line: I hate the monk class and believe it has very few purposes it can be used for. This makes me biased. I am trying to use simple number cruching to show that that it is not just my opinion that the build is lacking, but as long as it has 2 levels of a monk in it, I'll probably find a flaw with it anyway.

Runeclaw
2010-02-10, 07:51 PM
Splash one level of fighter, maybe two. The last two levels of Monk suck ass, and splashing moves you to class D and gives you a couple extra feats.

This. A +4 to AC on top of its other bonuses makes a level of Fighter really attractive for a melee build with the Defense Bonus rule in play (this rule option produces a lot of really bizzare phenomenon, by the way. Most characters under it seem to have better AC by taking their armor off).

Or if you can work the alignmnent restriction (Paladin of Tyranny?), a dip into Paladin gives the armor bonus as well as Smite. Smite synergizes well with Decisive Strike, since you can double the bonus damage. This works even better with Smiting Charge and Leap Attack, although you need Pounce to pull that off.

Between full-BAB and the Defense Bonus pretty much taking the teeth out of the "no armor" drawback, Monk is a greatly improved class. Of course, needing a Full Attack to flurry (or decisive strike) is still unfortunate.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 07:51 PM
Unfortunately, they're not actually high enough yet to face him. I'm more or less playing around in the meantime - in general, the monk's goal is to perfect himself for one on one battles with other martial characters but I was thinking he would still be effective against small groups of opponents.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 07:54 PM
I suppose I could just make him 8th level, or use a fighter bonus feat to get Spring Attack. That makes him lose the bonus to dodge, but it ends up being a point higher.

Edit: Purity of Body isn't losing much. Monk 4/Psywarrior or Fighter 2/Shadowdancer 1?

Boci
2010-02-10, 07:58 PM
I suppose I could just make him 8th level, or use a fighter bonus feat to get Spring Attack. That makes him lose the bonus to dodge, but it ends up being a point higher.

Edit: Purity of Body isn't losing much. Monk 4/Psywarrior 2/Shadowdancer 1?

Monk 2 / Psywarrior 4 would be better, but this way works as well. There is a feat from Secrets of Sarlona that allows the stacking of monk and psy warrior levels to determine certain bonuses, including unarmed strike.

Also, if you're short on feats you can always give him more flaws he won't feel. Shacky comes to mind.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 08:05 PM
Monk 2 / Psywarrior 4 would be better, but this way works as well. There is a feat from Secrets of Sarlona that allows the stacking of monk and psy warrior levels to determine certain bonuses, including unarmed strike.

Also, if you're short on feats you can always give him more flaws he won't feel. Shacky comes to mind.

Eh...I won't go into all the ways things work in my campaign, but for the purposes here, still mind and ki strike (magic) get a little more than a couple extra power points (shocking as that may be :smalltongue:). Plus, it's an extra point of BAB. This'll already reduce him to where he won't have an extra attack, but it would otherwise only be at +4 or +2 anyway.

Boci
2010-02-10, 08:15 PM
Eh...I won't go into all the ways things work in my campaign, but for the purposes here, still mind and ki strike (magic) get a little more than a couple extra power points (shocking as that may be :smalltongue:). Plus, it's an extra point of BAB. This'll already reduce him to where he won't have an extra attack, but it would otherwise only be at +4 or +2 anyway.

The whole point is though that every tactic you have so far presented for this character does not rely on full attacking. I can understand how ki strike (magic) can be important in a specific campeign, but a +2 bonus on saves vs. enchantment spells? Shrug.

With 4 levels of monk there is no need for the Secrets of Sarlona feat since it won't grant that much of a bonus.

The main psywarrior power you want is exspansion.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 08:22 PM
Hm...Tashalatora doesn't improve bonus speed, though, which is important for the Spring Attack/HiPS deal.

Boci
2010-02-10, 08:30 PM
Hm...Tashalatora doesn't improve bonus speed, though, which is important for the Spring Attack/HiPS deal.

With monk 4 / Psywarrior 2 you don't Tashalatora, it won't benefit him that much. You could instead take quick of thought from the EPH for a +10 speed bonus.

Also, you're attacking, so wouldn't you still take the -20 penalty to hide checks, or is that just meant for ranged attacks?

Pechvarry
2010-02-10, 08:36 PM
How about...

Ditch Spring Attack (but wait!)

replace with Travel Devotion and a level of Cleric.

I think there's some feat to get Wisdom for number of turning attempts, but i dunno.

Also, make sure he has good tumble.

Now, instead of spring attacking, you're simply running in (tumbling the last bit if they have reach), standard action double chop, tumble out of reach and run away.

Additionally, you could choose to run in and take your full round decisive strike.

And yeah, Robilar's Gambit requires BAB 12 and Karmic Strike requires you to grab up Combat Expertise.

Boci
2010-02-10, 08:40 PM
How about...

Ditch Spring Attack (but wait!)

replace with Travel Devotion and a level of Cleric.

I think there's some feat to get Wisdom for number of turning attempts, but i dunno.

Also, make sure he has good tumble.

Now, instead of spring attacking, you're simply running in (tumbling the last bit if they have reach), standard action double chop, tumble out of reach and run away.

Additionally, you could choose to run in and take your full round decisive strike.

And yeah, Robilar's Gambit requires BAB 12 and Karmic Strike requires you to grab up Combat Expertise.

Isn't that tactic even worse than spring attack? Spring attack requires 3 feats. Your version requires 2 feats, a level, burns a swift action and can be used a limited number of times per day, and requires you to tumble at half speed to avoid AoO.

Pechvarry
2010-02-10, 09:05 PM
But unlike spring attack, he actually gets to use Decisive Strike whenever he wants to.

For uses/day: he's an NPC.

For tumble: you don't have to tumble your entire movement. And since this Travel Devotion method gets you 2 move actions, you actually end up with more movement. With a base land speed of 50', he'd end up tumbling 10-20' (counting doubled movement cost) of his 100' per round. So against a Large creature, he can still dive in and out 40', for instance.

Just an idea.

Deathslayer7
2010-02-10, 09:17 PM
I dont understand why his penalty to hide is only -5.

whenever you snipe (although this is an odd case) you get a -20 to hide.

and sniping implies attacking a opponent then hiding.

second, your using HiPS. that's making me cringe.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 09:30 PM
I dont understand why his penalty to hide is only -5.

whenever you snipe (although this is an odd case) you get a -20 to hide.

and sniping implies attacking a opponent then hiding.

second, your using HiPS. that's making me cringe.

As has been noted above, that is for when you immediately hide again after making a ranged attack. Moving only up to half your speed is -5 penalty.

Edit: Actually...half speed is no penalty. More than half but not full is -5.

olentu
2010-02-10, 11:40 PM
As has been noted above, that is for when you immediately hide again after making a ranged attack. Moving only up to half your speed is -5 penalty.

Edit: Actually...half speed is no penalty. More than half but not full is -5.

The most relevant section would probably be where it says that it is almost impossible to hide (-20 penalty) while attacking or doing some other things.

Jergmo
2010-02-10, 11:47 PM
And total cover or concealment makes this unecessary.

olentu
2010-02-11, 12:18 AM
And total cover or concealment makes this unecessary.

Well sort of depending on what one wants. While as is said in the skill description they generally remove the need for a hide check as it would be impossible for anyone to see the character in some cases one can still locate the creature.


Though why take a level of shadowdancer if one is not actually going to hide.


Edit: By the by is Intuitive Strike intuitive attack.

Boci
2010-02-11, 09:28 AM
As has been noted above, that is for when you immediately hide again after making a ranged attack. Moving only up to half your speed is -5 penalty.

So making a ranged attack results in a penalty of -20, but making melee attack only results in a -5 penalty? Thats fair, as long as you allow the PCs the same flexability with interpretting the rules.


And total cover or concealment makes this unecessary.

How is he getting that?

Soranar
2010-02-11, 09:48 AM
Alright, a Full BAB monk , human with 32 pts buy and 3 flaws

ToB material allowed but no multiclassing

a build like this one comes to mind

STATS (32 pts buy)

STR 8 (dump, see build)
DEX 16 (main stat)
CON 16
INT 10 (you really don't need that many skills and you're human)
WIS 16
CHA 8 (dump)

Monk Attack style: Overwhelming Attack (Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Improved Overrun)

Don't bother meeting the prerequisites for the special ability, it's just not worth it. Getting Power Attack without wasting stats on Strength is great.

1 Monk Martial study, Martial stance, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse,Combat Reflexes
2 Monk
3 Monk Superior unarmed strike
4 Monk (+1 DEX)
5 Monk
6 Monk Shock Trooper
7 Fighter Leap attack
8... (+1 DEX)

Instead of hiding I would simply punch (or kick) people real hard while jumping. You're pretty hard to hit anyway. Just put skills in tumble and don't bother with dodge/mobility/spring attack. With you high DEX and your skills making a tumble check is not difficult and your AC can also save you. Combat reflexes assumes many opponent charging (your players).

You can wait till level 9 for leap attack and just go straight monk. Flying kick is not worth is as it's really situational while superior unarmed strike always works and can be taken multiple times. It also doesn't have a str requirement.

So basic combat would be : charge/leap/powerattack 1 guy, if alive flurry him next turn, repeat

For the shadow hand stances and maneuver, you have a few choice of maneuvers but gaining concealment while you move is pretty good.

Boci
2010-02-11, 10:14 AM
Current build:
Human / Cobra Monk 4 / Psywarrior 2 / Shadowdancer 1 (CR: 7)
Hitpoints: 49 (8 + 6d8 (27) + 14)
AC: 23 (24 against one opponent)
Flatfooted: 20
Touch: 22 (23 against one opponent)
Speed: 40ft
BAB: +7/+2
Saves (using fragmented progression):
Fort: +8
Ref: +9
Will: +10

Strength: 12
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 8

Feats:
Flaw 1: Combat reflexes
Flaw 2: Intuitive strike
Human: Weapon focus (unarmed strike)
Character 1: Law devotion
Monk 1: Dodge
Monk 1: I. Unarmed strike
Monk 2: Mobility
Character 3: Superior Unarmed strike
Psy w. 1: Spring attack
Psy w. 2: Martial study (cloak of deception)
Character 6: Snap kick

Skills points: 68
Maximum rank for class skill: 10
6 class skills maxed out, +8 skill points left over

Example:
Autohypnosis (10) +16
Balance: (5) +10 (to avoid being flatfooted when you're balancing)
Concentration: (5) +7
Climb: (3) +4 (climb a knotted rope even on a roll of 1)
Escape artist: (10) +15
Hide: (10) +15
Jump: (5) +8
Move silently: (10) +15
Timble: (10) +15

Psionic points / day: 4 Edit: Does the periapt of wisdom +2 also grant exrta pps?
Powers known: Expansion, 1 other

Other class features:
Base unarmed damage: 1d8
Decisive strike
Evasion, fast movement
Ki strike (magic)
Slow fall (20ft)
Hide in plain sight


Tactics: Manifest expansion, activate law devotion for a bonus on attack
Damage: 2d8+3, Attack bonus: +14 (+12 if snap kick is used), AC drops by 2 to 21, has reach of 10ft
Other options: Full round attack for +12, 4d8+6

Wealth: periapt of wisdom +2, braces of armour +1, cloak of resistance +1, boots of stealth (+2 to move silently and hide checks)

So, knowing your PCs, will that be enough?

Soranar
2010-02-11, 12:27 PM
Current build:
Human

Strength: 12
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 8


thats hardly a 32 pts buy thats 42 pts

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-11, 12:28 PM
I suggest my "Golden Saint" monk build:

Lesser Aasamir or Strongheart Halfling

Monk 6/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 9/Acolyte of the Fist 10/Fist of the Forest 5

Weapons: Kama of the Scorpion (x2), Monk's Belt

Feats: Snap Kick, Power Attack, Flying Kick, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Weapons (Unarmed Strike), Versatile Unarmed Strike, Yondalla's Insight (I think. The one that adds WIS to initiative for Halfling only)

Plan of Attack: Flying Kick to FoB with the Kamas, then Snap kick at the end.

Unarmed Strike Damage: something like 19d% or 20d20 if DM rules "No d%" with a full FoB....

Boci
2010-02-11, 12:55 PM
thats hardly a 32 pts buy thats 42 pts

Shrug. Its the same states the OP posted +2 wisdom for periapt of wisdom +2.

olentu
2010-02-11, 02:25 PM
So making a ranged attack results in a penalty of -20, but making melee attack only results in a -5 penalty? Thats fair, as long as you allow the PCs the same flexability with interpretting the rules.

Er well the -5 would only work i one is not hiding during the attack and instead only hiding before and after the melee attack. Hiding only before and after would however leave the character open during the attack until they are able to hide again. Hiding during the attack on the other hand gives a -20 penalty.