What type of government will gobbotopia be?

[paladinofshojo]

Due to the fact that the majority of the citizens of gobbotopia are from a warrior society (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) I would say that the government of gobbotopia will be something of an authoritarian regime led by a cult of personality around the supreme commander of the military :redcloak:

[Acero]

Despotism. Redcloak's word is law

[Optimystik]

We can compare Gobbotopia to a number of governmental styles and configurations, but such will invariably lead to political discussion, which is forbidden here.

[Belkon]

Theocracy.

[Temotei]

It'll be a "Rich nation," in any case. Har har.

[Raging Gene Ray]

An anarcho-syndiclast commune, because they fight the violence inherent in the system.

[Math_Mage]

An anarcho-syndiclast commune, because they fight the violence inherent in the system.

Do they? I was under the impression that they were part of the violence inherent in the system.

[Degnared]

A gobbocracy, of course.

[Mr. Spock]

It will be a necrocracy. where if you break the law, you get turned into a zombie

[veti]

Given that Redcloak's description of his new country kicks off by talking about "the Unholy Eyes of the Dark One", I think it's safe to call it a theocracy. I'm guessing the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle gets to be the ultimate head honcho, and decides exactly whom to appoint to all lesser roles as far as he can be bothered.

[DoctorIllithid]

Crimsonmantleocracy.

[Gamerlord]

My money is on dictatorship. Or theocracy.

[Murdim]

In theory, a theocracy ruled by the Dark One through his clergy, with the high priest Redcloak as the highest earthly authority.

In practice, a divine right monarchy ruled by Redcloak, Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblin Hordes and Bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

In reality, an autocracy ruled by Xykon the Mad through his servile minion Redcloak.

[Callista]

Redcloak's a cleric. It'll be a theocracy, LE-style, but consider that Redcloak is probably worshiping his deity because said deity happens to stand for the same things Redcloak would've been fighting for anyway. So this isn't going to be "obedience, or else, to an all-powerful deity with a cleric as figurehead"; it's going to be, "obedience, or else, to a powerful cleric in the name of a deity".

So how is talking about a government of goblins real-world politics, exactly?...

[t3h l3g1t m4g3]

Probably a Theocracy, but because Xykon will really be behind everything, would it not be?

[Pyron]

I call Diplocracy*.

A Diplocracy is to rule by whoever has the highest Diplomacy modifier.

[The Extinguisher]

Clearly, they will be a free republic of democracy for and by the average person.

[drengnikrafe]

Autocracy with Xykon in charge. Redcloak may do as he wishes most of the time, but if Xykon wants something done, it's likely his word will go above Redcloak's. In fact, it's pretty much definite.

On the other hand... Theocracy with that wild-card (Xykon) making occasional decisions. I'm not such what you'd call that.

[Thursday]

Clearly, they will be a free republic of democracy for and by the average person.

Well, thats what they should be if :redcloak:holds true to his 'give the goblins the best things in life' thing he has going..

Anyone see that actually happening?

It'll be a Theocracy, as we are consensusing on. Thats not a word is it? its late here...

[blueblade]

Well, thats what they should be if :redcloak:holds true to his 'give the goblins the best things in life' thing he has going..

Anyone see that actually happening?

It'll be a Theocracy, as we are consensusing on. Thats not a word is it? its late here...

Hey! No expressing political opinion/preference when the rest of us aren't allowed to.

I think it's ultimately a military dictatorship/cult of personality. A theocracy implies that faith is what binds people to be led. I think the majority of the gobbos and hobbos might respect and worship the dark one, but their faith and adoration for readcloak is what keeps them in line.


He's almost certainly the most powerful Goblin any of them have ever seen.
(Adopting American-Scottish accent) He's given them what none of them has ever had before: a country of their own
He is likely the only military leader they ever had who didn't consider their lives entirely expendable.
AND he wears the crimson mantle

[Vulkan]

Communism, Conrad

[Maximum Zersk]

An anarcho-syndiclast commune, because they fight the violence inherent in the system.

"King? I didn't vote for you." :smalltongue:

1D6ocracy

[Draconi Redfir]

Perhaps a council of three of the three goblinoid types (goblin, hobgoblin, and bugbear) with one of each three representing different aspects of the nation.

Politics,
Economics,
And military. (Or any other three)

Each of those three aspects will be represented by one of each goblinoid race. (One goblin, one bugbear, and one hobgoblin will all represent the economic portion/wishes of their race for example)

These nine will each be selected by who is the overall best of their specific field. (If bob the bugbear is the best military commander in the bugbear race that occupies Gobbotopia, he will be the military bugbear)


This council will put issues such as trade relations, crime, and azurite rebels to a vote, which will then be announced by the highest-ranking cleric/priest/WEV of the dark one. Should any vote come to a tie, this cleric shall act as a "tenth" council member, and either give his own personal opinion, or communicate with the dark one himself to ask for advice.


This way, all three goblinoid races get their own voice, and they are not always dependent on the high priest of the dark one.

[Thursday]

Hey! No expressing political opinion/preference when the rest of us aren't allowed to.


Erk! Yeah, Sorry! -I will have no more.



I think it's ultimately a military dictatorship/cult of personality. A theocracy implies that faith is what binds people to be led. I think the majority of the gobbos and hobbos might respect and worship the dark one, but their faith and adoration for readcloak is what keeps them in line.


Agreed, though I'm not sure how much keeping in line they need (in the short term, anyway).

[DukeGod]

A Democracy...as long as the decision made by the majority of gobbo don't annoy Readcloak of course...

[Dire Moose]

I'd say most likely a monarchy/dictatorship, given that Redcloak has been the "Supreme Leader" for quite a while now and all the goblinoids have largely approved of him. That being said, I would expect some sort of council of advisors would need to be set up to keep Redcloak appraised of what the people want at the time.

Minor note: I do have a large goblinoid realm in my campaign, except it's mainly a loose confederation of smaller clan-ruled lands that are constantly making alliances with and making war against each other, with hobgoblins dominating and goblins largely reduced to a slave class.

[SaintRidley]

Theocratic autocracy, there's really no other option.

[The_Weirdo]

Autocracy with Xykon in charge. Redcloak may do as he wishes most of the time, but if Xykon wants something done, it's likely his word will go above Redcloak's. In fact, it's pretty much definite.

On the other hand... Theocracy with that wild-card (Xykon) making occasional decisions. I'm not such what you'd call that.

In late imperial times, Brazil had the three powers plus the "Poder moderador" - a fourth power, "moderating" power, wielded by the emperor, which passed or blocked laws, ordinances or judgment as it pleased, regardless of legislative, executive or judicial (which were, of course, also powers) will. So, an autocracy by Redcloak with a "Moderating Power" in the form of Xykon is what you're looking for, here, I think.

[The_Weirdo]

Communism, Conrad

Conrad is a proper name...

[Turkish Delight]

Well, executive power seems to be vested in Xykon, since for all Redcloak's posturing he's still Xykon's flunky and Xykon can change whatever he wants about how the city is ruled.

So Lichocracy.

[Dr.Epic]

Theocracy: Red Cloak's the supreme leader and he's a cleric of the Dark One.

[Ancalagon]

I think you can count Redcloak (one word!) out. He'll leave two rounds after the phylactery was found (and thus won't be available for government).

[DukeGod]

I think you can count Redcloak (one word!) out. He'll leave two rounds after the phylactery was found (and thus won't be available for government).

Except tha he got "Sending" so...he can advise from wherever he is...not exactly rule but enough to transmit commands and so

[Draconi Redfir]

am i invisible? no one seems to regard my posts. or even notice them for that matter -_-

[Werbaer]

I think i just failed a listen check.

[Asta Kask]

Gobbocracy.

[dps]

It'll be a lawful evil country, of course. OTOH, that's not exactly a governement type.

[Thufir]

Crownocracy!

[Meshakhad]

I disagree with the theocracy argument, as although Redcloak is a cleric, the goblins are organized along military lines, with Redcloak as supreme military commander. It'll be more of a military dictatorship.

Xykon, of course, will still be able to command Redcloak.

[Fragenstein]

These nine will each be selected by who is the overall best of their specific field.

Nine supreme legislators? Awesome! I even have a nifty set of rings to commemorate just such an occasion...

[Belkster11]

am i invisible? no one seems to regard my posts. or even notice them for that matter -_-

Same here. -___-

I vote the government would be a despotism form of government. Reddy's word is law. Xykon? He doesn't care at all about the gobbos. He plans on leaving almost immediatly after they find the phylacetry.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Xykon? He doesn't care at all about the gobbos. He plans on leaving almost immediatly after they find the phylacetry.

Or turn Gobbotopia into a smoking crater for kicks and giggles.

[Ancalagon]

Except tha he got "Sending" so...he can advise from wherever he is...not exactly rule but enough to transmit commands and so

I'd like to see anyone successfully do complex governing in 25-word-batches. Does not really sounds practical an in any possible way.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Perhaps a council of three of the three goblinoid types (goblin, hobgoblin, and bugbear) with one of each three representing different aspects of the nation.

Politics,
Economics,
And military. (Or any other three)
...
This council will put issues such as trade relations, crime, and azurite rebels to a vote, which will then be announced by the highest-ranking cleric/priest/WEV of the dark one. Should any vote come to a tie, this cleric shall act as a "tenth" council member, and either give his own personal opinion, or communicate with the dark one himself to ask for advice.


I could see Redcloak appointing a council to run things, but he would definitely want to have more power than a tiebreaker. He'd want veto power. And assigning 3 representatives of each race would only serve to reinforce racial differences among the goblinoids. Not to mention the fact hobgoblins make up over 90% of the population.

That said, Redcloak might end up appointing a council (with Jirix either at the head or at least somewhere on it) to run everything in his absence while he leaves Gobbotopia to complete The Plan (and keep Xykon busy).

[Draconi Redfir]

Same here. -___-

I vote the government would be a despotism form of government. Reddy's word is law. Xykon? He doesn't care at all about the gobbos. He plans on leaving almost immediatly after they find the phylacetry.



well you have a ninja avitar. so its no wonder your not noticeable :P



I could see Redcloak appointing a council to run things, but he would definitely want to have more power than a tiebreaker. He'd want veto power. And assigning 3 representatives of each race would only serve to reinforce racial differences among the goblinoids. Not to mention the fact hobgoblins make up over 90% of the population.

That said, Redcloak might end up appointing a council (with Jirix either at the head or at least somewhere on it) to run everything in his absence while he leaves Gobbotopia to complete The Plan (and keep Xykon busy).

well this was mostly for when redcloak was gone or otherise not availible. likle if he was dead or after the gates.

[Acero]

Perhaps a council of three of the three goblinoid types (goblin, hobgoblin, and bugbear) with one of each three representing different aspects of the nation.

Politics,
Economics,
And military. (Or any other three)

Each of those three aspects will be represented by one of each goblinoid race. (One goblin, one bugbear, and one hobgoblin will all represent the economic portion/wishes of their race for example)

These nine will each be selected by who is the overall best of their specific field. (If bob the bugbear is the best military commander in the bugbear race that occupies Gobbotopia, he will be the military bugbear)


This council will put issues such as trade relations, crime, and azurite rebels to a vote, which will then be announced by the highest-ranking cleric/priest/WEV of the dark one. Should any vote come to a tie, this cleric shall act as a "tenth" council member, and either give his own personal opinion, or communicate with the dark one himself to ask for advice.


This way, all three goblinoid races get their own voice, and they are not always dependent on the high priest of the dark one.

shouldn't there be one of each race in each branch?

[ZerglingOne]

My vote is dictatorship under the guise of theocracy. No matter how you look at it, Redcloak is merely a figurehead that is controlled by Xykon where it really counts. Xykon's word is final under punishment of death, and he is thus the dictator. Redcloak is pretty much just the guy doing all of the work.

[Draconi Redfir]

shouldn't there be one of each race in each branch?

ymmm yea. thats what i said.


Each of those three aspects will be represented by one of each goblinoid race. (One goblin, one bugbear, and one hobgoblin will all represent the economic portion/wishes of their race for example)

These nine will each be selected by who is the overall best of their specific field. (If bob the bugbear is the best military commander in the bugbear race that occupies Gobbotopia, he will be the military bugbear)

[DBJack]

The problem with it being a democracy or a theocracy is that the way to become leader of the hobgoblins is to apparently kill the current leader. Hobgoblins revere their leaders for their strength, I guess. It might be different now that we're talking about a country and not 30,000 hobgoblins living in a village, but I'd expect the hobgoblins to have a single leader that is strong in battle and tells them what to do. They don't seem the type of race to like having a group of beings telling them what to do, and I think a warrior race would want the same leader for the duration of his life to keep things simple. Someone stepping down and releasing power probably wouldn't make much sense to them.

[Nimrod's Son]

It'll be a Hypocracy.

Thanks

[Souhiro]

Gobbotopia will be a PARADISE to adventurers: They come, they kill, they level up, and they flee. Nuff'Said

[factotum]

The problem with it being a democracy or a theocracy is that the way to become leader of the hobgoblins is to apparently kill the current leader.

No, that's ONE way of becoming leader, but we don't know that's the only way. It just happens to be the way Redcloak used because he was in a hurry.

[TriForce]

The problem with it being a democracy or a theocracy is that the way to become leader of the hobgoblins is to apparently kill the current leader. Hobgoblins revere their leaders for their strength, I guess. It might be different now that we're talking about a country and not 30,000 hobgoblins living in a village, but I'd expect the hobgoblins to have a single leader that is strong in battle and tells them what to do. They don't seem the type of race to like having a group of beings telling them what to do, and I think a warrior race would want the same leader for the duration of his life to keep things simple. Someone stepping down and releasing power probably wouldn't make much sense to them.

you... dont live in either of those do you?:S leaders in democracy's get voted, leaders in a theocracy is whoever gets appointed by the religion. if the leader would be whoever happens to kill the previous leader is would be a ditatorship or despotism, and not democracy or theocracy, no matter what they call themselves

[Jayabalard]

Hail the red(cloak) army, comrade!

I think the answer is obvious.

[kopout]

you... dont live in either of those do you?:S leaders in democracy's get voted, leaders in a theocracy is whoever gets appointed by the religion. if the leader would be whoever happens to kill the previous leader is would be a ditatorship or despotism, and not democracy or theocracy, no matter what they call themselves

Thats what he said. He said that it CAN"T be a democracy or a theocracy for the same reasons you did.

[hamishspence]

Does drow society qualify as theocratic? its very much "gain power by killing rivils" but at the same time, to hold high rank, you need to be a member of the clergy of Lolth.

[Asta Kask]

The problem with it being a democracy or a theocracy is that the way to become leader of the hobgoblins is to apparently kill the current leader.

Murder is fonos, so that would be fonocracy. I still prefer gobbocracy, though.

[sihnfahl]

Or turn Gobbotopia into a smoking crater for kicks and giggles.
Nah, he wouldn't. Cause it would amuse him for all of 10 seconds.

Not to mention that it would probably cause RC to finally snap. The establishment of a strong, independent Goblinoid nation, snuffed out like that?

That's a Cost Too High.

[Aerodynamik]

Well, since Jirix is the Prime Minister now, they must have adopted a parliamentary system. A republic, maybe?

[sihnfahl]

Well, since Jirix is the Prime Minister now, they must have adopted a parliamentary system. A republic, maybe?
Don't read too much into the title.

After all, Jirix is a Cleric (Minister). He's also presumably the second most powerful goblinoid cleric, so he's the Prime...

[TheBST]

Come to think of it, are there any democracies in OoTS-World?

Not sure how 'good' any state where people don't get to choose their own leader can be.

[Murdim]

Come to think of it, are there any democracies in OoTS-World?

Well, Gobbotopia might not be a democracy, but Someplace Else certainly is. Link ! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html)

[The MunchKING]

you... dont live in either of those do you?:S leaders in democracy's get voted, leaders in a theocracy is whoever gets appointed by the religion. if the leader would be whoever happens to kill the previous leader is would be a ditatorship or despotism, and not democracy or theocracy, no matter what they call themselves

I dunno, it could still be a theocracy if that was their Dark God's decrees I suppose.

[sihnfahl]

Not sure how 'good' any state where people don't get to choose their own leader can be.
Pretty Good, really. AC was a benevolent monarchy run by a Paladin, after all, when Soon was alive.

You can have some pretty evil democracies ... tyranny of the majority, after all.

[DukeGod]

Well, Gobbotopia might not be a democracy, but Someplace Else certainly is. Link ! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html)
and so is Cliffport. unless the current Mayor got replaced and the new one turned it into some other government form (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0356.html)

[Mastikator]

Theocratic Military Imperialism?

[Mr. Pin]

The "People's Republic of Gobbotopia" will be a narcokleptocratic phallocratic pigmentocratic ptochocratic xenocratic theocratic snobocratic meritocratic hagiocratic gerontiocratic chiliarchy.

Called it. Just you wait and see.

[PallElendro]

I say Daoism. They go small ruling and kinda nice.

[Fish]

I think this thread would produce much more consistent answers if the people within it were focused on the same question, namely, "How will the official government of Gobbotopia be structured?"

A lot of people are inserting Xykon and Tsukiko and the MitD, as if they're part of the structure, but they aren't. "But," you argue, "Redcloak will do whatever Xykon says!" True. But that doesn't mean Xykon is part of the governmental structure, any more than Mr. Scruffy was the official leader of Azure City.

"How do decisions get made," "who is in charge," and "what form of government is it" are all slightly different questions, ranging from government in practice to government on paper.

[Asta Kask]

And that would quickly devolve into a discussion of politics, which is a banned topic on these forums. No, gobbocracy FTW.

[Xorbon]

Whatever form of government they take, Xykon won't be part of it. He doesn't give a damn about how the goblins govern themselves.

[Ancalagon]

Come to think of it, are there any democracies in OoTS-World?

Yes. Someplace Else (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html) has one.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I think it will be a fake democracy with the clerics of the dark one always in charge.:smallconfused:I'm not sure though.

Check out my thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141981

[The conqueror]

Theocracy. Definitely a theocracy.

[Mastikator]

I think it will be a fake democracy with the clerics of the dark one always in charge.:smallconfused:I'm not sure though.


But the goblinoids probably don't even like democracy. They are clearly in favor of their nation being an empire that controls the world via military strength. And the fact that their supreme leader is a cleric just screams "theocracy".


Off topic. If Left-Eye, uh I mean Redcloak manages to unite all goblinoids and make sure they're protected against adventurers, would that mean he'd consider his long term goal finished?

[Mirin]

An anarcho-syndiclast commune, because they fight the violence inherent in the system.
I think I will be more a "the community is more important than the individual, and never mind individual freedom if it's for the collective good of the goblin people" regime. (which doesn't at all go well with the concept of anarchy either). Nothing libertarian.

[Asta Kask]

Well, the bugbears are so few that they are probably unimportant. So the hobgoblins (Lawful Evil) would probably go for some collectivist nightmare, while the goblins (Neutral Evil) will be satisfied with an ordinary nightmare.