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Dust
2010-02-10, 07:15 PM
Less a roleplaying question and more a sociological one, I nevertheless feel that this is the best forum for this question.

I am currently GMing a game wherein I'd like to create a city that is locked away from the rest of the world, and is essentially a perfect, utopic civilization. The people there are mentally and physically superior to the rest of the world, technologically advanced, magically-adept, and globally detached.

I'd like to have different cultural and environmental factors and events that the PCs - who are citizens of this utopia - will get to view firsthand to really drive the point home. I want them to be extreme and a little creepy, but also really give the players a sense of complete superiority when they venture out into the rest of the primitive world.

For example (inspired by the recent debates regarding RL olympic athletes), the members of the utopic civilization undergo wholly-magical gene-splicing at birth in order to produce more red blood cells, reduce body fat to virtually nothing, and increase physical prowes in other ways.

It doesn't have to be realistic; I just want to know what you'd do if you had to attempt making this civiliation. Does it have a currency-less economy? Are the arts a high priority, or do they exist at all? And so on.

Riffington
2010-02-10, 07:25 PM
Does it have a currency-less economy?

Every economy has a currency of some kind or other. Might be favors, might be bread, might be cigarettes...but there's something.

But this brings up the important question: what do people in this society actually *want*? I mean, I'm assuming they have security, food, shelter, pretty clothes, etc... what do they want?
Answer one: more stuff. Just because you have five shirts doesn't mean you wouldn't like a sixth, fuzzier shirt. This is always an easy answer.
Answer two: glorious art (or knowledge). Now, artists and scientists on Earth depend on the fact that their products are consumed by a productive populace. But when there's an overabundance of artists (if there's enough leisure time and enough stuff), then the artists stop producing things to be paid and start having to pay their audience to actually care about their stuff. Now the currency is attention.
Answer three: Desire has been tragically removed from these people.
Answer four: Power - they manipulate those barbaric primitives to war with each other; if your tribe wins you get status/power/etc.
there may be many other such answers.

SurlySeraph
2010-02-10, 07:28 PM
*No commerce whatsoever. Everyone gives everyone whatever they ask for with no questions asked, because they wouldn't be asking for it if they didn't need it, right?
*No markets, for the same reason. You go directly to the factory or workshop to get what you want. Manufacturers for things people get a lot will be located in the center of population-dense areas, for the same reason.
*Extreme routine. Everyone does the same thing at the same time every. Single. Day. Unless something is going very, very wrong. Because it's more efficient that way.
*They don't get the concept of conversation. You tell people what they want to know about you and/or your work, and don't bring up anything else. Why would you? It's not relevant, and just wastes their time. They find it slightly confusing when the PCs want to make small talk - is my childhood and favored brand of alcoholic beverage really relevant to their mission here?
*Child labor. Everyone starts working as soon as they are physically capable, to get as much experience as possible. They may get a general education as well, but in their jobs (which may well be assigned at or before birth), people in this society are absolutely unbeatable.

tahu88810
2010-02-10, 07:32 PM
See: Communism
Well, actually...Perfect Marxist Socialism. But y'know...

GenericGuy
2010-02-10, 07:40 PM
The biggest drawback to a "perfect Society" is the question of dissent. Most fiction I've read with "Utopias" always come across as hive mindish and conforming to me.

Asheram
2010-02-10, 07:43 PM
Sounds like you're trying to make Shangri'la there.

I'm just reminded of the old Ducktales episode... (Aaah.. Good memories)

A small Teocratic society where everyone works for everyones welfare.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-10, 07:44 PM
...reduce body fat to virtually nothing...

How is this perfect? If something tragic happens and food is removed, or it gets really cold... you're pretty much screwed. Not to mention you may run out of energy more quickly than normal people.

Which brings me to my next question. How do you define perfect? What one person says may be disagreed with by the next person. My "Perfect society" is similar to our current one. With balance and reason all over the place. I guess if you never knew anything but perfection, it may seem all too natural, but I don't see how this paragon world would be fun or useful. It would just exist.

fryplink
2010-02-10, 07:49 PM
im going to take this another direction, and go for a capitalist/lightly socialist utopia, controlled freedom

the center of the city has a massive aqueduct with a massive water source, sprouting from a tower (if its 3.5, decanters of endless water mounted atop a tower with pipes spider webbing the city)

the city is market driven, but since basic needs are supplied by magic (magic food-spoons, houses lie within extra-dimensional spaces creating a creepy symmetry as you walk down the road) all commerce is luxury-based, you sell luxury to buy more luxury. the luxury-based markets will be the only loud area


underneath the water-source tower is the university, which creates the aura of superiority you wanted, teaches magic, the arts and science (or magi-science as the setting demands). The university is required public education, with a brainwash-propaganda thing going on

the standardized education teaches violence out of the people, not by saying its wrong, but by arming everyone (thing cold war MAD warfare) with magic, so if someone casts fireball in the market, the market is a smoldering crater within 10 mins and everyone knows it (though secretly the market is under a mythal that prevents offensive spellcasting)

in fact the entire city is in a mythal that regulates the happenings, the mythal reads minds and democratically (but secretly) manages affairs within the background by counting peoples secret desires as votes to swing the city.

Eldonauran
2010-02-10, 07:53 PM
Easy enough.

Direct divine intervention. Think Lolth and the drow, but with a good soceity. Lolth takes a direct approach to the social and religious interactions of her followers and it has molded them into exactly what she wants. Everything the drows do is done to either please Lolth, gain her favor, increase their own political status or to take revenge on someone else (all of the above pleases Lolth). For all that, Lolth hints that they will be favored in the afterlife.

You want to do something that massive, you need something that can not be overcome to keep everyone in line. Doesn't even need to be a god. Some other powerful force, either known, unknown, see or unseen that takes an active role in the working of society. Somebody does something they shouldn't ... something happens that makes them change their mind, whether good or bad, up to you. Eventually, people learn what not to do if it has immediate consequences.


How do you define perfect?
Yeah, you don't get to define it. All powerful deity does. *wink*

Food for thought

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-10, 08:00 PM
What one person says may be disagreed with by the next person. My "Perfect society" is similar to our current one

I want them to be extreme and a little creepy

I think that's the point.

The mind-invading sentient spell enforcing perfect democracy sounds nice. Needs a dash more mind control (mundane or magical) - a sudden surge of lust (or a similar emotion) could cause some cause.

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-10, 08:04 PM
www.cityofreality.com The titular city that is detailed in the first couple chapters.

fryplink
2010-02-10, 08:06 PM
You want to do something that massive, you need something that can not be overcome to keep everyone in line. Doesn't even need to be a god. Some other powerful force, either known, unknown, see or unseen that takes an active role in the working of society. Somebody does something they shouldn't ... something happens that makes them change their mind, whether good or bad, up to you. Eventually, people learn what not to do if it has immediate consequences.


thats actually what my mythal idea was aimed at doing, creepy unaviodable path-decider, giving you the appearence of free will, but only from the inside, outsiders think your wierd and brainwashed

Eldonauran
2010-02-10, 08:11 PM
thats actually what my mythal idea was aimed at doing, creepy unaviodable path-decider, giving you the appearence of free will, but only from the inside, outsiders think your wierd and brainwashed

Great minds think alike. I am more of a fan of the whole direct divine interaction thing myself. Its refreshing to see a deity take an active role in his worshippers. Heheheh

Jayngfet
2010-02-10, 08:15 PM
The problem is there is no universal perfection. Take for example the shape you're using: Lots of muscle, no fat. Just as often as it's considered beautiful it's considered hideous. This is just a vague thing, going into any more detail on any sort of features causes even wilder variations. Mental superiority is another big thing: How is pure INT used, skill wise? Knowledge(basketweaving) may seem useless or perfect given conditions.

The problem is DND isn't made to describe these things, hell reality isn't made for this sort of thing. One man's perfect loving society is another's oppressive dictatorship. Another's democracy where everyone votes on everything is another's idea of beaurocratic hell where vote tallying takes so long barely anything gets DONE.

Any society, no matter how it's done, will find people unhappy with it. Any ideology is terrible when seen through a particular social caste or belief system. It's more or less impossible to get "perfect".

BRC
2010-02-10, 08:16 PM
Without mind control a perfect society is impossible.
If all physical needs are met, people will want Luxury. If People work, some people will want to work less. Even if everybody lives in total luxury without expending any effort, they will still find something to strive for, bringing them into conflict.

The way I would do this is to have everybody in said society be under magical compulsion to follow the societies rules. They are literally incapable of thinking about breaking the rules or considering any action that leads to harming another citizen. Of course, this works provided everybody else is following the same set of rules and the society stays isolated. If they encounter somebody else the strict locks on their behavior frequently lead to them either locking up, being totally unable to act, or going insane. Everybody is very happy, but they are in a way mindless. Everything is provided for them, and they are incapable of being jealous or dissatisfied, so they appear to be an enlightened society, but they're just going through the motions.

Think about it this way, they are given an image of themselves, they strive to achieve that image, but never to surpass it. For example, the entire society is in excellent physical condition, but they never actually need that muscle tone, they just do it because they are programmed too. They create art, not because they have a drive to express themselves, but because their programmed self-image is of somebody who spends a couple hours a week creating art. They don't even necessarily make good art, they are incapable of being dissatisfied, so they just work on art for an hour a day and believe what they have created is a masterpiece. Everybody else believes it's a masterpiece too, because they are incapable of believing otherwise.

Eldonauran
2010-02-10, 08:22 PM
You got that right. Free will is such a damned double-edged sword.

fryplink
2010-02-10, 08:32 PM
well try for both?

expanding on my mythal (it could just as easily be Eldonauran's gods or anything) supresses all violent thought but retains some competative urge, think a charm effect but instead of befriending the caster, everyone befriends everyone else? meh, im just throwing out ideas

that would allow OP's PCS the free will to act within the city w/o messing up the story early on (cant kill anyone), and creating the "perfect city"

plus the OP isn't really suggesting and actual "prefect city" but sorta a guilded city, it appears perfect, but lacks something that actually makes it perfect

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-10, 08:54 PM
As a sort of adition to my previous remark, this page describes it best:
It's only really creepy until they know the truth:
http://cityofreality.com/strips/2009-10-01-03_46_Family.png

Fishy
2010-02-10, 08:55 PM
I highly recommend The Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson. Spoilery goodness:At the end of the book, Hackwell releases two technologies onto the world: The Seed, which is nanotechnology advanced to the point that it can create anything at all out of the surrounding dirt- up to and including nuclear weapons, and The Young Lady's Illustrated Primer, which is educational technology advanced to the point where you can essentially mass-produce intelligent, creative, disciplined, moral and above all independent human beings with a solid understanding of math, science, arts, history, computing, sociology, psychology, nanotechnology, resource management, self-defence and the arts of war.

The book ends right before we see how it turns out, but it's either going to go very well, or very poorly.

kyoten
2010-02-10, 08:56 PM
Couple of questions!

What's a Mythal and what book can they be found in?

What alignment is your "Perfect Society"? Each alignment would have it's own idealization of Perfection.

~Kyoten

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-10, 09:00 PM
What's a Mythal and what book can they be found in?

A Mythal, in this context, is an EXTREMELY EPIC SPELL. The term "mythal" is used because mythals are typically city-sized (see: Magic of Faerun)

Thatguyoverther
2010-02-10, 09:07 PM
Low crime rates and happy citizens are common to both utopias and dystopias. The real major difference is whether or not people have uninhibited freedom. Dystopic societies tend to curb or control the populace through some means either overtly or with some more subtle means.

A "perfect" society is pretty much impossible without disrobing or curbing free will. And then it really isn't all that perfect.

Personally I'd go for a society based around Plato's idea of a state run by philosopher kings. The entire civilization's needs are met by magical means, and the people live in luxury. In such a state the main currency is the esteem of ones peers.

The majority of the populace spends their time discussing philosophy and the nature of the universe. The rulers are elected, primarily based on the number of people they can persuade to accept their particular philosophy.

Almost everyone is in a constant state of conflict with their neighbors, but the conflicts don't take place with swords but with words, debating and attacking the other person's line of reasoning. Scoring points off a rival in a public forum is the highest pleasure in this society.

Proponents of different philosophical schools take the place of political parties. Supporters of unpopular or poorly constructed philosophies take up the role of the outcasts of the society.

All the PCs have to do to make friends is agree with people, and make sure that no one else catches you agreeing with anyone else.

Randel
2010-02-10, 09:43 PM
A few ideas:

1). Its a somewhat militant society, not so much that they fight all the time but its very structured and its an 'a place for everything and everything in its place' sort of society. Everyone belongs to The Society and knows what their position is. There are probably titles and ranks and classes for people to use.

2). Everyone knows everyone else and works for the betterment of society. There is the concept of Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesellschaft). In Gemeinschaft everyone is linked by common mores and desires and act in the interest of society as a whole to benefit themselves, a family or close-knit tribe is such an example. In a Gesellschaft everyone has somewhat different interests and desires and tend to work for their own self interest... like in a modern business where they make things more to make money for themselves than necessarily to benefit consumers or fellow employees.

In a 'perfect' society, most everyone there would be some common goal or culture so that everyone knows that by helping others than it benefits them.

3). Exercising the body and mind. I'm thinking something like eastern exercises like the buddist monks who live in secluded temples, everyone has a common sort of excercise they do to keep their bodies and minds in peak physical condition. Its not so much that they need to genetically modify themselves, its that they learn to eat mostly vegetables and clean water with enough meat and such in there so that they get their vitamins and proteins without getting fat. Meditation, communication, excercise, and learning all gives the people a healthy body and calmness of mind to keep them in shape.

4). Rotating work. There may be a few 'masters' in the Society who stick to certain chores like pottery, medicine, cooking, or farming and these are the ones who are best at them. Everyone else kind of rotates their jobs in an organized manner... kind of like in Total Quality Management. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_quality_management). If everyone knows how the food is grown, harvested, cooked, and how medicine is performed and clothes made to at least a little bit then they all have a better idea of how their society fits together.

This also gives them a Jack of all Trades sort of setup so that each person has at least a good idea of how to do anything, even if they aren't an expert. A master blacksmith still knows how to grow corn even if he's great at metalwork.


So, a person from this society would know what their 'place' in society was. They would feel perfectly fine with talking to everyone around them from the king to the innkeeper, to the doctor, to the farmer, to the thief and such. They would excercise their body and mind daily and never eat too much to get sick or fat, and they would see no shame in doing mundane chores like cooking, cleaning, shoveling out the stables or perscribing medicine to others.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-10, 11:58 PM
Most folks here seem to be emphasizing regimentation, control, strict roles, etc. for a perfect society. Why not go the opposite route if the whole point is to make things a bit creepy?

Citizens don't need to work, as every need is taken care of magically (creating food, harvesting it with golems, whatever). If people like to paint, they paint masterpieces or pointless crap, whatever takes their fancy; who cares if people want to see it or not? If people like to talk, they talk about the weather, philosophy, family, science, art, anything at all; if it's inconsequential, oh well--they have plenty of time, who cares? If people want to fight, they spar in an arena, in the streets, in someone's house, wherever.

Instead of giving off this aura of oppression and this-isn't-really-a-utopia, this city gives off the impression of complete freedom through pointlessness--no one is working toward anything, no one is doing anything for any particular reason, there's really no point to its being. Having run a variation on this myself, I can tell you the one thing that makes PCs paranoid is something without reason to be. No plot hooks? No hidden cabals? No secret mind control? No bad guys faking goodness? No plot relevance whatsoever? It's actually a perfect place for everyone and everyone is actually completely happt? There's got to be a catch.

Harperfan7
2010-02-11, 12:07 AM
Perfect? Everybody being chaotic good. Also, preferably with the highest ability scores and level possible.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-11, 12:09 AM
I read a Conan spin-off comic that more or less went like this.

Conan and some warrior buddies he's currently running with are enslaved by a Hyperborean city-state.

The story goes on to show that these people seized the city long ago from its previous inhabitants, with magic being the key factor in their victory. Once they seized a homeland, they optimistically set out on a quest for knowledge. (Like Conan, the previous defenders were struck by the unfairness of being defeated by magic in what they thought should be a straight martial contest.)

Eventually, they made a breakthrough where they could utilize souls as the raw energy to power their spells. Using their magic, they could control the weather, turning the lands surrounding the city into a blasted winter wasteland while keeping conditions at home warm and sunny. They had plenty of food, safety and leisure to pursue their arts. They even discovered the secret to immortality.

They brainwashed slaves and trained them into soldiers, who they then sent out to conquer the world to capture more slaves. These slaves served in their households, were their soldiers and the fuel for their magics.

However, it basically came down to the point where their society suffered its first suicide. A scholar ceased his work and simply pitched himself into a chasm. This stirred up much consternation at first. But more and more, ennui gripped the population and the ritual suicide of an entire household, slaves and all, turned into a sacred funerary ritual. It is a solemn moment of departure for citizens who no longer had any interest in an immortal life. Members of the city who lost interest in life ceremoniously jumped into the chasm at their city. (Conan learns to his disgust, that there is nothing special or transcendent down there but repugnant vermin that fed on the carrion.)

Conan, for his part, is there to witness the death of the latest token chick (who was a slave at one of the households) due to the ritual suicide of her master.

In Howardian fashion, it takes the theme of complex and sophisticated civilizations eventually falling into decay. Civilization is the exception to the rule of the barbarism that exists in between periods of more civilized ages.

In short, it is much like an empire. It is young and ambitious at first, but as it attains power it begins to lose its initial idealistic drive and becomes disengaged and uninterested. Its power is propped up by fringe elements and slaves (or colonies) who insulate them from the outside world. (Its technologies might then be forgotten to the mists of time.)

I can easily see this setting as one where "necessary barbarism" becomes a prevalent theme.

Dexam
2010-02-11, 12:20 AM
Instead of giving off this aura of oppression and this-isn't-really-a-utopia, this city gives off the impression of complete freedom through pointlessness--no one is working toward anything, no one is doing anything for any particular reason, there's really no point to its being. Having run a variation on this myself, I can tell you the one thing that makes PCs paranoid is something without reason to be. No plot hooks? No hidden cabals? No secret mind control? No bad guys faking goodness? No plot relevance whatsoever? It's actually a perfect place for everyone and everyone is actually completely happt? There's got to be a catch.

I think you may have missed the point of the original post. The PC's aren't entering the utopian society from the outside - they're going from the utopia into the big, bad world outside. Culture shock ahoy! :smallwink:

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-11, 12:26 AM
Most folks here seem to be emphasizing regimentation, control, strict roles, etc. for a perfect society. Why not go the opposite route if the whole point is to make things a bit creepy?

Citizens don't need to work, as every need is taken care of magically (creating food, harvesting it with golems, whatever). If people like to paint, they paint masterpieces or pointless crap, whatever takes their fancy; who cares if people want to see it or not? If people like to talk, they talk about the weather, philosophy, family, science, art, anything at all; if it's inconsequential, oh well--they have plenty of time, who cares? If people want to fight, they spar in an arena, in the streets, in someone's house, wherever.

Instead of giving off this aura of oppression and this-isn't-really-a-utopia, this city gives off the impression of complete freedom through pointlessness--no one is working toward anything, no one is doing anything for any particular reason, there's really no point to its being. Having run a variation on this myself, I can tell you the one thing that makes PCs paranoid is something without reason to be. No plot hooks? No hidden cabals? No secret mind control? No bad guys faking goodness? No plot relevance whatsoever? It's actually a perfect place for everyone and everyone is actually completely happt? There's got to be a catch.
Well, the thing you describe, is in fact, not perfect.

The citizens are completely bored and unengaged with life. And their power probably comes off the backs of other people who suffer so that they can maintain their lifestyle.

There are no real challenges. And they don't actually need strong character to overcome adversity. So they're always thoughtlessly cruel and wield power without much consideration for the consequences.

It's basically a society of overgrown children.

doc awesome
2010-02-11, 12:35 AM
I think the cit would have constructs of some kind inhabiting it.

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-11, 12:50 AM
Well, the thing you describe, is in fact, not perfect.

The citizens are completely bored and unengaged with life. And their power probably comes off the backs of other people who suffer so that they can maintain their lifestyle.

There are no real challenges. And they don't actually need strong character to overcome adversity. So they're always thoughtlessly cruel and wield power without much consideration for the consequences.

It's basically a society of overgrown children.

Well, I suppose that depends on where the campaign stands on the sliding scale of cynicism vs Idealism.

Such freedom from nessecity could foster a greater interest in personal growth. People would be strong because they want to be, they would paint and practice art because they enjoy it. Cooks would cook because they like to cook. Mages would learn magic to help their community. They would watch out for the safty of others because there is no reason to not. There would be nothing to gain from lying since you have everything you could possibly need. Maybe the people of this society have developed an emotional maturity to handle such things, and not argue over petty things. People settling their differences face to face. simply have them be honest, good people.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-11, 12:56 AM
Well, I suppose that depends on where the campaign stands on the sliding scale of cynicism vs Idealism.

Such freedom from nessecity could foster a greater interest in personal growth. People would be strong because they want to be, they would paint and practice art because they enjoy it. Cooks would cook because they like to cook. Mages would learn magic to help their community. They would watch out for the safty of others because there is no reason to not. There would be nothing to gain from lying since you have everything you could possibly need. Maybe the people of this society have developed an emotional maturity to handle such things, and not argue over petty things. People settling their differences face to face. simply have them be honest, good people.
I suppose, but it seems like the OP wants a specifically dystopian setting.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-11, 01:12 AM
I think you may have missed the point of the original post. The PC's aren't entering the utopian society from the outside - they're going from the utopia into the big, bad world outside. Culture shock ahoy!

Hmm...when he said things the PCs would "view firsthand" I got the impression that the PCs would be becoming citizens, since they'd take things for granted if they grew up there. Oh well.


Well, the thing you describe, is in fact, not perfect.

The citizens are completely bored and unengaged with life. And their power probably comes off the backs of other people who suffer so that they can maintain their lifestyle.

There are no real challenges. And they don't actually need strong character to overcome adversity. So they're always thoughtlessly cruel and wield power without much consideration for the consequences.

It's basically a society of overgrown children.

I never said that anyone is bored with life, only that that's how it would seem from the outside if no one had a job and no one really ran things. Everyone would only do what they enjoyed--imagine if someone offered to pay for food, water, shelter, and any other necessities for the rest of your life while you did whatever it was you wanted to do...then imagine that all of your friends got that deal too, so you could do things with them and hang out together if you so chose, and all their friends and so forth. Any challenges to overcome are those you set for yourself; if you want to be the best swordfighter you can be, get a bunch of buddies together and have at it.

The whole thing about other people suffering, citizens being cruel, and so on doesn't need to be the case--it's magic, remember? No one needs to plow the fields, serve the food, clean the streets, or anything else, since it's either done directly via magic or by magically-animated nonsapient creations. If people want to tend gardens, cook wonderful food, paint murals, or do whatever else, then of course they can, but it would again be purely voluntary. People who want to deal with political power could learn about it and set up mock courts and such, kind of like government classes in real life (I'm assuming this civilization knows of others while being isolated; if they are completely oblivious about the outside world, there would be less call for this). Anyone who wanted to lead would lead anyone who wanted to follow.

Granted, if such a society sprang up as-is (which is possible in a world with magic), it's entirely possible the citizenry would be a bunch of overgrown babies. However, if this society reached this point because it developed into this society from another one, then they'd most likely have the emotional and cultural maturity to set their own goals and purposes as Beelzebub mentioned. Is this a dystopian society? Not by any means, but it would certainly be jarring and creepy to an extent.

Felyndiira
2010-02-11, 01:18 AM
What I would do, given that the PCs are to enter the outside world, is the following:

Every single society requires a goal of sorts - something for its populace to strive for; in the early days this came naturally in the form of survival, as the society requires food and protection in order to sustain themselves. For a more modern society, this comes in the form of either greed or idealism: people study and struggle for higher positions for a better financial future, or they work hard toward a dream job where they would help starving children or save lives. It's (partially, depending on where you stand on the sliding scale) this goal that drives society forward in the name of Capitalism.

In a typical Communist utopia, the main problem is a lack of such a goal; therefore, I would make "contact with the outside world" the ultimate form of achievement in this society. Basically, people compete with each other academically, martially, and/or via work for a chance to rise higher in the rankings; every so often, the highest-ranking members - and maybe some wildcards - are chosen to leave the closed-off society and venture into the outside world as "the elite." This conveys no actual advantage, and the people released in this way usually are not allowed reentry into the society, but it gives the people their drive to work for the betterment of society.

Of course, there will be some indoctrination involved, as the people cannot be completely free-thinking and mindless subscribing to this doctrine. How much of a dystopic element (removal of the people that do not subscribe to society, etc.) will change depending on the tone, although it gives a logical reason for the PCs to venture into the outside world.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-02-11, 01:18 AM
The concept that comes immediately to mind a place where Miracle/Wish is granted to all within city limits as an at-will SLA. The only limitation of this grand power is that the spell only works within the city (meaning that items created by the spell vanish once the border is crossed), and the SLA fails (or its results are undone) the moment it would bring harm to another, given that equally powerful magic negates any attempts made by one occupant to affect another with their SLA. Everyone gets practically anything they desire at the snap of their fingers and need not fear most anything, so long as they do not leave the city. Thus, most people would happily remain NPC classes within the great city as there would be no need to really put forth any effort in order to live a carefree life. However, the PC party would most likely be composed of members of a fringe subculture of people with a strong desire to earn what they have and feel a need to prove themselves to... -well, themselves at the very least. Heck, perhaps they just want to see what the outside world is like first hand, experience things as they are happening instead of scrying the events after the fact.

Just a thought.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-11, 01:28 AM
Totalitarianism ruled by an all powerful, perfectly good and immortal being.

Dust
2010-02-11, 01:34 AM
To answer a handful of questions;

My players enjoy being superior to all those they encounter. Whenever a roleplaying opportunity pops up for this (say, in Scion or games wherein they have an inherent divine right) several of them like to play this to the extreme.

Thus, having them citizens of a 'superior' civilization* will both emphasis why their stats are higher than the tribal people they encounter outside their cloistered little universe, and also to pander to their favorite kind of roleplaying.

The society that I am trying to replicate will be a fantasy Atlantis, a secluded, technologically advanced city. The Atlanteans claim that their society is perfect, and therefore change is unnecessary.
But as there are no limits to the development of both desire and ability, for the society to claim perfection is to arbitrarily cut itself off at a certain stage of development.

Of course, the second I say the word Atlantis, anyone with half a brain will be able to guess that the city is going to sink and force the PCs to the outside world. Perhaps if a few hundred more years were to pass, the precarious balance could tilt and it could rapidly devolve into a dystopian society - but it's a moot point, since the PCs will be actively engaged in the ultimely destruction of their home. I want to be able to demonstrate that utopic civilization falls due to its own critical hubris, but also make my PCs feel like alienated godlings in a world too brutal and chaotic for them, a world in which they themselves helped rape and destroy to further their own endless recreation.

But this is all in the future; my question of 'How do I create a utopic setting?' really was the best answer I was looking for here, and less about how to create post-apocalyptisc dystopias.

Many of the ideas here have helped greatly. Thanks, guys!

*(putting quotes around that will get old, so I won't in the future)

Yahzi
2010-02-11, 01:50 AM
I am currently GMing a game wherein I'd like to create a city that is locked away from the rest of the world, and is essentially a perfect, utopic civilization. The people there are mentally and physically superior to the rest of the world, technologically advanced, magically-adept, and globally detached.
So they're morally bankrupt, then.

I suggest you read "The Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad. :smallsmile:

Zen Master
2010-02-11, 03:29 AM
Modrons. Mechanus. A proper place for everything - and everything in its proper place. Perfection calculated to the n-th decimal. While good and evil will eventually destroy each other, neutrality patiently, continously and eternally builds.

Myani
2010-02-11, 10:14 AM
If you've got a few spare hours for movie, check out the Ba'ku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba'ku#Plot) from the film Star Trek: Insurrection. Having acquired near-immortality (if not true clinical immortality), they abandoned technology for a life of harmony with each other and nature - a young, 40-year-old artisan was only a journeyman artist or craftsman, and could look forward to centuries of practice with his art. Rebels were simply asked to leave. (It didn't turn out great for them, but naturally enough when they came back their parents and relatives welcomed them if they would play by the rules. There was a bit of a fuss first, but when isn't there?) They had exactly the society they wanted, and despite the great promises of advanced technology, they were quite content to leave it alone. One of them put it this way: "Where could warp drive take us . . . but away from here?"

There's a certain attraction to this style of utopia, but it also means your PCS would have to be pretty Zen and willing to let other people think that they are superior, which doesn't seem to mesh with what you described. It could be adapted, but part of the appeal to this model is that people are conditioned to not really want much beyond a simple life.

In contrast, Robert Jordan's Age of Legends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Legends#The_Age_of_Legends) was a society where casters had advanced technology and magic to the point where an entire planet had its needs met easily and basically without cost (Note: Unless you have a few spare weeks and the cash to fund reading one of the longest fantasy saga ever written, I would recommend sticking to the CliffNotes version). Casters were enormously respected as "Servants of All" whose research protected, fed, and provided for society. There were overly ambitious types whose talents were well channeled by society, and criminals who they were dealt with justly and humanely by way of an Unbreakable Vow-imposing artifact, and by induced hallucinations to show criminals the negative consequences of their actions (usually repenting very, very quickly after reliving their crime from the perspective of the victim). When the God of Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan) was discovered and released, it was in an attempt to resolve some structural "issues" with magic - by analogy, because some scientists were playing around with Quantum Physics or somesuch and figured that there would be few repercussions, but maybe some payoffs. Didn't end well, as the next age was called the Age of Madness (100+ epic level casters going insane instantaneously, plus every male caster slowly succumbing to the same, in a mageocracy? Turns out it's really, really not good for the environment or society.)

This sounds a bit more like what you're going for, since it offers incredible opportunities for the PCs to be light-years ahead of their barbaric cousins, who are busy trying to bash each others' skulls in with clubs in comparison to your elegant weapons for a more . . . civilized age. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber) For added fun, your lost Altantis can put the rest of existence in danger, and the rest of existence might expect your PCs to fix what "they" (as proxies for their lost civilization) broke.

DabblerWizard
2010-02-11, 01:41 PM
These are my thoughts.

A society that has achieved (or can easily obtain) complete physical-need-fulfillment, still has other needs they can sate. These include the continued acquisition of material things (though I imagine this aim is the least fulfilling), emotional / mental fulfillment (e.g. true and absolute self love, and love of others), and spiritual fulfillment (e.g. ascension)

Star Trek has an underlying theme of appealing to curiosity and wanderlust for their own sake, once their society absolved normal physical dependencies.

Consider also Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Once survival and security are obtained, one can focus on complete self appreciation, self understanding, and self-love, as well as their counterparts in complete appreciation, understanding, and love, of others.

Siegel
2010-02-11, 01:46 PM
See: Communism
Well, actually...Perfect Marxist Socialism. But y'know...

or see Perfect Capitalism


Modrons. Mechanus. A proper place for everything - and everything in its proper place. Perfection calculated to the n-th decimal. While good and evil will eventually destroy each other, neutrality patiently, continously and eternally builds.

that's like Brave New World right ?

Lysander
2010-02-11, 01:59 PM
"Perfect" is the wrong word here. It implies there's one right answer. Instead go with "good." A good society is one where most people are happy of their own free will, and those that want something different are free to propose changes or leave without being utterly exiled.

"Society" is also the wrong word here because it really just refers to how people choose to interact with each other. It doesn't make any judgments as to the environment or outside factors. People in a not-that-good society in a lush fertile land might be happier on the whole than a good society in an arid land surrounded by warlike nations.

What you seem to be going for is a peaceful democratic nation with little scarcity, institutions of higher learning and the arts, with a small or non-existent lower class. One possibility is an enlightened democratic Magocracy. A pretty island nation where menial tasks are taken care of by unseen servants and mindless constructs, and everyone else is encouraged to study magic, the sciences, the arts, or engage in athletics. A council of elected sages, mostly powerful wizards but a few people who are experts in other things as well, share power with an impartial and rarely needed judicial system of elected judges.

Tiktakkat
2010-02-11, 04:26 PM
So they're morally bankrupt, then.

I suggest you read "The Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad. :smallsmile:

"Truncheon"
:smallbiggrin:

Or, at that rate, just go to the source and read "Utopia" by Sir Thomas More.

Ormagoden
2010-02-11, 04:29 PM
There are no consequences for anything because the world is virtual.

Ormur
2010-02-11, 05:42 PM
I'd go with the Culture from Iain M. Banks' novels, that's really the closest I've seen to an actual utopia and not one that's secretly dystopian. Humans are will always screw things up so society is supervised by all powerful, nearly omniscient and benevolent beings. Everything is provided on demand by them so there is little use for a conventional economy. People study and create art and there is a sort of gift or a reputation economy. There is no government because those super beings can keep people and each other in check. Their ultimate goal is happiness so they're respectful of the wished of the humans.

However the logical conclusion would be that this would hardly be a society of humans, it would be a society of those super beings with human pets. They'd be like cats, spoiled and loved but without the risk of getting run over by cars.