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SilverStar
2010-02-10, 08:45 PM
I'm curious who came up with the idea that IHS can remove a ridiculously long list of conditions, up to and including the sun.

The sun? PLEASE.

Antimagic Field seems to be pushing it too far... explain, please?

Boci
2010-02-10, 08:49 PM
Antimagic Field seems to be pushing it too far... explain, please?

AMF is a spell, that has a duration longer than 1 round, and will be affecting the warblade. That fits the requirements of IHS, just like how death does not stop you from taking action. If any of those things ever actually happen in a game I play in, I would give the DM a minute to say "april fools" beofre leaving.

FishAreWet
2010-02-10, 08:50 PM
CutServe actually agrees with the AMF shattering.

SilverStar
2010-02-10, 08:53 PM
I can get how it can remove detrimental conditions; that seems like what it was made for.

As for CustServ's ruling, that really isn't comforting.

If I tried that in a game I'd get the ToB chucked at me.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-10, 08:54 PM
I'm curious who came up with the idea that IHS can remove a ridiculously long list of conditions, up to and including the sun?

The same people who hilariously lolled after seeing people take this sort of thing seriously.
The same people who use swords, which have crystalline atomic structures, as spell components for Cone of Cold.


As for CustServ's ruling, that really isn't comforting.

Don't worry; CustServ isn't RAW.

Koury
2010-02-10, 08:54 PM
For reference:

Iron Heart Surge:IRON HEART SURGE
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart
maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text
By drawing on your mental strength
and physical fortitude, you break free of
a debilitating state that might otherwise
defeat you.
Your fighting spirit, dedication, and
training allow you to overcome almost
anything to defeat your enemies. When
you use this maneuver, select one spell,
effect, or other condition currently
affecting you and with a duration of 1
or more rounds. That effect ends immediately.
You also surge with confidence
and vengeance against your enemies,
gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack
rolls until the end of your next turn.

I personally don't think AMF is out of line. Its a far cry from the sun, or gravity, or the heat on the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Moglorosh
2010-02-10, 08:55 PM
IHS removes the effect, it doesn't remove the SOURCE of the effect. Ie: whatever it is stops affecting you, but still exists just the same. I utterly fail to see how it could be interpreted any other way. It quite specifically says that the effect ends, not the spell itself.

In the case of the Anti-magic field, it would simply allow you to cast as normal within it.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-10, 08:55 PM
IHS is so vague in its wording IIRC it says : "When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds. The effect ends immediately.

Since there is no actual set definition of "condition", it can be interpreted very vaguely. For instance, a condition could be "I am currently in an antimagic field". Ending the condition would mean that you're no longer in an antimagic field.

Another condition could be "There is a star within 1 lightyear of me"

IRON HEART SURGE, BITCHES!!!!

Boci
2010-02-10, 08:56 PM
I can get how it can remove detrimental conditions; that seems like what it was made for.

The problem is there is no definition for a "detrimental condition" in D&D, so they needed some other wording with included a lot of things it should not have.


As for CustServ's ruling, that really isn't comforting.

Yes knowing the prestige that commands amoungst D&D players....



If I tried that in a game I'd get the ToB chucked at me.

That goes without saying.



Another condition could be "There is a star within 1 lightyear of me"

"I am not epic" was always my personal favourite.

Irreverent Fool
2010-02-10, 08:56 PM
Unfortunately, among the list of things that a character cannot stop with IHS are any that deny standard actions. If IHS is to be considered a 'purely mental' action, then paralysis, at least, can be negated.

Do poison and disease qualify?

obnoxious
sig

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-10, 08:56 PM
Since there is no actual set definition of "condition", it can be interpreted very vaguely.

Actually, "condition" is probably defined as "anything on this list" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm). Effect is more iffy.

SilverStar
2010-02-10, 08:59 PM
IHS is so vague in its wording IIRC it says : "When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds. The effect ends immediately.

Since there is no actual set definition of "condition", it can be interpreted very vaguely. For instance, a condition could be "I am currently in an antimagic field". Ending the condition would mean that you're no longer in an antimagic field.

Another condition could be "There is a star within 1 lightyear of me"

IRON HEART SURGE, BITCHES!!!!

This is made of pure awesome, due to the mental image running around in my head, but it shouldn't work. Ever. In life or in death, regardless of the ability to initiate IHS.:smallbiggrin:

As for it being considered a purely mental action, I can agree with that. It's inner reserves of strength.

Can you remove petrification?

I'm looking for noncheesy ways to use this, because even were I running a game, if I told my players that the BBEG warblade they are fighting just negated the laws of gravity with a third level maneuver....

Deth Muncher
2010-02-10, 09:02 PM
Actually, "condition" is probably defined as "anything on this list" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm). Effect is more iffy.

If you go by that...

You can IHS away DEATH.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-10, 09:02 PM
"I am not epic" was always my personal favourite.

Nice one. A couple of my favorites:

"There is not a bowl of cheese nachos in my hand."
"I not immortal."
"I don't know [insert BBEG]'s top secret plans."
"I am not a god."
"I am at less than full health."

Boci
2010-02-10, 09:02 PM
This is made of pure awesome, due to the mental image running around in my head, but it shouldn't work. Ever. In life or in death, regardless of the ability to initiate IHS.:smallbiggrin:

As for it being considered a purely mental action, I can agree with that. It's inner reserves of strength.

Can you remove petrification?

I'm looking for noncheesy ways to use this, because even were I running a game, if I told my players that the BBEG warblade they are fighting just negated the laws of gravity with a third level maneuver....

Can you take standard actions whilst petrified? I'm pretty sure a wizard cannot cast stilled silented spells, so I'm guessing no.



You can IHS away DEATH.

Why bother? Death doesn't make you weaker.

SilverStar
2010-02-10, 09:06 PM
Nice one. A couple of my favorites:

"There is not a bowl of cheese nachos in my hand."
"I not immortal."
"I don't know [insert BBEG]'s top secret plans."
"I am not a god."
"I am at less than full health."

1. I would give you the nachos just for the laughs.
2-5 No freaking way.... but Pun Pun, the god of rules loopholes, comes down and gives you a Tootsie Pop for making the DM laugh at your creativity.

I'm really not sure on whether or not one's consciousness departs when petrified.

tyckspoon
2010-02-10, 09:13 PM
Do poison and disease qualify?

obnoxious
sig

Effect is perhaps the most ludicrously broad term they could have used. So.. yes, RAW, unless you want to try to figure out exactly what they meant by "duration measured in rounds" (the two positions are roughly that it means only things explicitly stated in rounds, as in rnd/level spells, or that it means pretty much everything that is non-permanent because the round is the basic time unit of D&D.) By intent, yes, and by some magical version of IHS that makes sense.. not entirely. I'd have it allow you to ignore any penalties you were under from poison/disease for the duration of the fight you used it, but you'd still be diseased or poisoned and still have taken the ability damage/penalty/whatever.

Claudius Maximus
2010-02-10, 09:39 PM
Unfortunately, among the list of things that a character cannot stop with IHS are any that deny standard actions. If IHS is to be considered a 'purely mental' action, then paralysis, at least, can be negated.

Do poison and disease qualify?

obnoxious
sig

IIRC you need to be able to move freely to initiate maneuvers, so being tied up or paralyzed or what have you would prevent you from using IHS. Petrification prevents all actions, as statues are objects.

SurlySeraph
2010-02-10, 10:09 PM
The only reasonable way to treat IHS is to houserule it into something completely different from its current state.

Letting it not require an action (though perhaps require you to give up your standard action next round) and affect most items on the Conditions Summary list (with the obvious exception of Death, and possibly Disabled, Dying, Exhausted, Fatigued, Flat-Footed [which would become a problem if you let IHS not require an action], and Incoporeal) is the most sensible way to do it.

That way, IHS lets you overcome paralysis and such by heroic willpower, which its current version does not, without letting you destroy antimagic fields and possibly planets, which the current version does.

Superglucose
2010-02-10, 10:15 PM
The same people who use swords, which have crystalline atomic structures, as spell components for Cone of Cold.
These people need to be shot because swords, typically made of metal alloys, typically do not have crystalline structures.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-10, 10:20 PM
Thirteen people in this thread (and me) are not experts on metal. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6718.0)

NEO|Phyte
2010-02-10, 10:22 PM
Even if you DO have a crystalline sword, unless you're a pixie or something, it's unlikely to be "very small."

Mongoose87
2010-02-10, 10:28 PM
Can you take standard actions whilst petrified? I'm pretty sure a wizard cannot cast stilled silented spells, so I'm guessing no.



Why bother? Death doesn't make you weaker.

It's interesting the way the Condition Summary doesn't actually say you can't take actions when you're dead. The only thing is the bit about your soul leaving, and I don't know if that's covered anywhere.

Superglucose
2010-02-10, 10:32 PM
Thirteen people in this thread (and me) are not experts on metal. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6718.0)
Calling yourself an "expert on metal" is a bit absurd.

In any case neither the thread you've linked to nor the thread that is linked to IN that thread show anyone being a chemist.

Having looked it up, it is more accurate to say that steel contains iron crystals which are separated and held in place by carbon.

Gralamin
2010-02-10, 10:40 PM
Calling yourself an "expert on metal" is a bit absurd.

In any case neither the thread you've linked to nor the thread that is linked to IN that thread show anyone being a chemist.

Having looked it up, it is more accurate to say that steel contains iron crystals which are separated and held in place by carbon.

I live with a material engineer. Should I go bother him about it, or should we just leave this tangent aside?

Dimers
2010-02-10, 10:54 PM
Can you remove petrification?

Seemed to work pretty well for the witch-queen in Willow. :smallsmile:

Glimbur
2010-02-10, 10:54 PM
It's even more accurate to say that steel is mostly iron with a small amount of carbon interstitials. Depending on how exactly it has been treated, we will get a variety of crystal structures with possible precipitates in them. The problem is, as usual, that specialized terminology does not have the same meaning in general conversation.

An amusing side note is that glass is actually not crystalline, it is an amorphous solid.

More on topic, would anyone like to make up a more sensible version of IHS so we can poke at it until it's good?

Lamech
2010-02-10, 11:08 PM
IHS can get rid of spells? And this is a problem why? It can remove a condition from the condition list? This is a problem how? Other than it might not make sense if you are blinded because of standing in sunlight or something. Now one should have a sane DM interperting effect otherwise the sun goes out, someone gets rid of the weak nuclear force and someone stops time; no one should put out a whole forest fire.

But really whats the problem with dispelling magic?

P.S. If this is a flavor issue: Someone breaks magic or deparalyzes themselves with force of will? Thats kind of the whole ToB. Like say... all the healing powers of the crusader.

Gralamin
2010-02-10, 11:14 PM
P.S. If this is a flavor issue: Someone breaks magic or deparalyzes themselves with force of will? Thats kind of the whole ToB. Like say... all the healing powers of the crusader.

IHS cannot actually fix Paralysis or Petrification by RAW. It can however, Smash Antimagic fields. Its these weird inconsistencies which are the problem.

tyckspoon
2010-02-10, 11:19 PM
IHS can get rid of spells? And this is a problem why? It can remove a condition from the condition list? This is a problem how? Other than it might not make sense if you are blinded because of standing in sunlight or something. Now one should have a sane DM interperting effect otherwise the sun goes out, someone gets rid of the weak nuclear force and someone stops time; no one should put out a whole forest fire.

But really whats the problem with dispelling magic?

P.S. If this is a flavor issue: Someone breaks magic or deparalyzes themselves with force of will? Thats kind of the whole ToB. Like say... all the healing powers of the crusader.

It can't remove things that it should (paralyzation, charm effects, stunning..) and it does completely eliminate things that it really shouldn't (Area of effect spells, conjured items that happen to obstruct or penalize you.) It's not the concept of it that is problematic; it's just mechanically f'd up.

A saner version would start, IMO, with the following steps:
Iron Heart Surge is a mental action. You do not need to move freely to use it, which is otherwise a general requisite of maneuvers (this is why you can't use it to get rid of a stun or Hold Person-type effect, as currently written.)

Iron Heart Surge does not end effects. It suppresses them for you and you only. If you Surge in an Anti Magic Field, you personally ignore the existence of that particular field. Everybody else in it still has to deal with it. Likewise, if you Surge out of a Web spell or similar, you may move freely within that Web but everybody else is still making Ref saves and/or Strength checks to move. If you Surge away fatigue or exhaustion, you may act as if you are not fatigued or exhausted for the duration of the encounter (all Surge effects last for the encounter used or until the suppressed effects end, whichever happens first.)

The Demented One
2010-02-10, 11:47 PM
The condition "Not currently piercing the heavens" is affecting me. I activate Iron Heart Surge.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-10, 11:49 PM
I believe we have firmly established that WOTC's wording is extremely poor here. I also think RAW is next to useless, and it's extremely favorable to use RAI. Or Rules As DM Says They Are.

SurlySeraph
2010-02-10, 11:52 PM
The condition "Not currently piercing the heavens" is affecting me. I activate Iron Heart Surge.

So that's your standard action for the round. I recommend using a swift action to kick reason to the curb, and then your move action to go beyond the impossible.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-10, 11:53 PM
The condition "Not currently piercing the heavens" is affecting me. I activate Iron Heart Surge."I'm not currently piercing that cute barman."

IRON HEART SPARTAAA! SURGE!


[/Tongue-in-cheek]

olelia
2010-02-10, 11:55 PM
So if you IHS the sun...then IHS the darkness that follows...what happens/appears :smallconfused:.

Overshee
2010-02-10, 11:56 PM
The condition "Not currently piercing the heavens" is affecting me. I activate Iron Heart Surge.

+1 to Cool.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 12:04 AM
By RAW, Iron Heart Surge cannot end the sun, as the sun has no listed duration and isn't a spell, effect, or condition. The effect or condition is being blinded, but that ALSO doesn't have a listed duration, so you can't end it.

It can, however, smash emanation spells (like AMF), because they have a duration of 1 or more rounds.

It's actually kinda better that it fully ends the effect, because otherwise you could get insane cheese from a caster who casts AMF and then IHSs it away, giving similar results to Initiate of Mystra.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-11, 12:26 AM
By RAW, Iron Heart Surge cannot end the sun, as the sun has no listed duration and isn't a spell, effect, or condition. The effect or condition is being blinded, but that ALSO doesn't have a listed duration, so you can't end it.

It can, however, smash emanation spells (like AMF), because they have a duration of 1 or more rounds.

It's actually kinda better that it fully ends the effect, because otherwise you could get insane cheese from a caster who casts AMF and then IHSs it away, giving similar results to Initiate of Mystra.

No, but you can end the light and heat that the sun provides. The sun actually does have a duration, it will collapse in appox. 5 billion years.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 12:35 AM
No, but you can end the light and heat that the sun provides. The sun actually does have a duration, it will collapse in appox. 5 billion years.

It has no stated duration, just like a mundane fire has no stated duration. Them's the rules.

Asbestos
2010-02-11, 12:41 AM
No, but you can end the light and heat that the sun provides. The sun actually does have a duration, it will collapse in appox. 5 billion years.

Earth sun, yes. Whatever the hell hangs in the literal ether in D&D? No clue.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-11, 12:42 AM
It has no stated duration, just like a mundane fire has no stated duration. Them's the rules.

But if it has no stated duration it must last forever, and therefore have a permanent duration:smallwink:

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 12:43 AM
From the Tome of Battle:
Iron Heart Surge
(Large quantities of text I'm not worrying about)
"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately."
(More text I'm ignoring, about bonuses given thereafter)

Where does it say that the duration has to be given? The sun has a duration of one or more rounds. In fact, it even has a finite duration, albeit insanely long. We are aware it has a duration, and eventually this duration will end. We're just speeding up the inevitable.

Gralamin
2010-02-11, 12:44 AM
From the Tome of Battle:
Iron Heart Surge
(Large quantities of text I'm not worrying about)
"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately."
(More text I'm ignoring, about bonuses given thereafter)

Where does it say that the duration has to be given? The sun has a duration of one or more rounds. In fact, it even has a finite duration, albeit insanely long. We are aware it has a duration, and eventually this duration will end. We're just speeding up the inevitable.

There is where the idea that it must be measured in rounds (IE: You cannot Iron Heart Surge something lasting 1 minute/level) comes in.

Asbestos
2010-02-11, 12:45 AM
There is where the idea that it must be measured in rounds (IE: You cannot Iron Heart Surge something lasting 1 minute/level) comes in.

That is some fancy rules lawyering.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 12:47 AM
But if it has no stated duration it must last forever, and therefore have a permanent duration:smallwink:


From the Tome of Battle:
Iron Heart Surge
(Large quantities of text I'm not worrying about)
"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately."
(More text I'm ignoring, about bonuses given thereafter)

Where does it say that the duration has to be given? The sun has a duration of one or more rounds. In fact, it even has a finite duration, albeit insanely long. We are aware it has a duration, and eventually this duration will end. We're just speeding up the inevitable.

I'm as much of a rules lawyer as you two, and the sun has no duration. It will burn out (Lords of Madness makes this clear), but that doesn't mean it has a duration. Just like people don't have a duration, despite the obvious fact that they'll die.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 12:48 AM
There is where the idea that it must be measured in rounds (IE: You cannot Iron Heart Surge something lasting 1 minute/level) comes in.

That can be converted to rounds. Everything can. And here is where RAW is, again, painfully vague.

I said it before, I'll say it again (using slightly different words). This particular RAW entry doesn't work. There's something to be said for silly RAW arugements, but this one has been going on as long as I remember, and no progress has been made. The same points get brought up again and again, and virtually nobody switches sides on strait-RAW translation.

Can't we just agree not to abuse the vague rules so horribly and move on with our lives?

The Demented One
2010-02-11, 12:50 AM
One begins to think that IHS should be worded so as to grant immunity to an effect, rather than ending the effect itself. Good thing that Tome of Battles errata...

Oh. Wait. Nevermind. :frown:

Gralamin
2010-02-11, 12:51 AM
Re: rounds - I'm not saying I agree with it, but that is one common thought process.


One begins to think that IHS should be worded so as to grant immunity to an effect, rather than ending the effect itself. Good thing that Tome of Battles errata...

Oh. Wait. Nevermind. :frown:

The problem with that is that someone WILL find a way to use it to get immunity to anti-magic fields as a constant effect.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-11, 12:54 AM
I'm as much of a rules lawyer as you two, and the sun has no duration. It will burn out (Lords of Madness makes this clear), but that doesn't mean it has a duration. Just like people don't have a duration, despite the obvious fact that they'll die.

Is the term duration defined anywhere? Because otherwise, duration just means:

du⋅ra⋅tion
  /dʊˈreɪʃən, dyʊ-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [doo-rey-shuhn, dyoo-]
–noun
1. the length of time something continues or exists (often used with the).

and since a round is six seconds, anything that lasts for six seconds or more should be allowed.

The Demented One
2010-02-11, 01:02 AM
The problem with that is that someone WILL find a way to use it to get immunity to anti-magic fields as a constant effect.
Sufficiently elegant wording avoids this problem.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 01:06 AM
Sufficiently elegant wording avoids this problem.

What kind of wording are you hoping for? When has WOTC used wording precise enough for this kind of stuff?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 01:08 AM
Is the term duration defined anywhere? Because otherwise, duration just means:


and since a round is six seconds, anything that lasts for six seconds or more should be allowed.

There's no definition in the glossary of the PHB, I must admit. I don't have the Rules Compendium on me, it might be defined there.

But mundane things are not given durations that I'm aware of. Hence Conj(creation) spells having an instantaneous duration.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-11, 01:08 AM
Inspired by this thread, I have created a graphical representation of how Iron heart surge works:
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t338/MushroomNinja/Ohno.jpg
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t338/MushroomNinja/IRNHS.jpg
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t338/MushroomNinja/EndResult.jpg

Gralamin
2010-02-11, 01:10 AM
Is the term duration defined anywhere? Because otherwise, duration just means:


and since a round is six seconds, anything that lasts for six seconds or more should be allowed.


Duration
A spell’s Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.

Timed Durations
Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell’s duration is variable the duration is rolled secretly (the caster doesn’t know how long the spell will last).

Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

Permanent
The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end.

You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after you cease concentrating.

Subjects, Effects, and Areas
If the spell affects creatures directly the result travels with the subjects for the spell’s duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends. If the spell affects an area then the spell stays with that area for its duration.

Creatures become subject to the spell when they enter the area and are no longer subject to it when they leave.

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Discharge
Occasionally a spells lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged.

(D) Dismissible
If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell’s effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell’s verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

A spell that depends on concentration is dismissible by its very nature, and dismissing it does not take an action, since all you have to do to end the spell is to stop concentrating on your turn.

Closest there is.

The Demented One
2010-02-11, 01:12 AM
What kind of wording are you hoping for? When has WOTC used wording precise enough for this kind of stuff?
I'm hoping for "WotC hires me as a freelancer to do errata for old 3.5 stuff" type wording. Or, barring that, text that's written and intended as a technical, literal description, rather than a fuzzy description.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 01:15 AM
I'm hoping for "WotC hires me as a freelancer to do errata for old 3.5 stuff" type wording. Or, barring that, text that's written and intended as a technical, literal description, rather than a fuzzy description.

That sounds like a really good idea.
I'll make you a deal. If you write it, I'll use it in every game I play that involves IHS ever again, and put a link to it in my sig as "The Demented One's fix of Iron Heart Surge".

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-11, 01:18 AM
There's no definition in the glossary of the PHB, I must admit. I don't have the Rules Compendium on me, it might be defined there.

But mundane things are not given durations that I'm aware of. Hence Conj(creation) spells having an instantaneous duration.

IIRC, the spell has an instantaneous duration, not the objects that it makes. The spell does something, much like an evocation creates a blast of heat. The items have a permanent duration, as they do not disappear.

The Demented One
2010-02-11, 01:21 AM
That sounds like a really good idea.
I'll make you a deal. If you write it, I'll use it in every game I play that involves IHS ever again, and put a link to it in my sig as "The Demented One's fix of Iron Heart Surge".
I'm pretty sure I actually did that, before. White Raven Tactics too. I'll try and dig them up.

EDIT: Yeah, here they are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67866). They're not written up all pretty-like, but they should be functional patches.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 01:28 AM
IIRC, the spell has an instantaneous duration, not the objects that it makes. The spell does something, much like an evocation creates a blast of heat. The items have a permanent duration, as they do not disappear.

No, they don't have a duration. If you're going to be a rules lawyer, stick to the rules instead of genociding catgirls. RL definitions don't matter.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 01:30 AM
I'm pretty sure I actually did that, before. White Raven Tactics too. I'll try and dig them up.

EDIT: Yeah, here they are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67866). They're not written up all pretty-like, but they should be functional patches.

Wonderful, thank you. We don't need pretty words. We need functional ones, and that's what you've provided me with.

The Demented One
2010-02-11, 01:30 AM
IIRC, the spell has an instantaneous duration, not the objects that it makes. The spell does something, much like an evocation creates a blast of heat. The items have a permanent duration, as they do not disappear.
Duration is a system term, not just a word. Summoned items no more have a duration than Joe Dwarf or the moon or beer have a duration.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-11, 01:30 AM
No, they don't have a duration. If you're going to be a rules lawyer, stick to the rules instead of genociding catgirls. RL definitions don't matter.

Except duration is not a defined term, and if something doesn't have a duration is doesn't exist.

The Demented One
2010-02-11, 01:32 AM
Wonderful, thank you. We don't need pretty words. We need functional ones, and that's what you've provided me with.
But pretty words are pretty.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 01:34 AM
Except duration is not a defined term, and if something doesn't have a duration is doesn't exist.

Duration is defined for spells at least.

And things can exist without having that specialised kind of duration.

EDIT: Ninjaed. What TDO said.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 01:35 AM
But pretty words are pretty.

If you write one with prettier words, I'll link to that one too. Or instead. Whichever you prefer.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-11, 06:56 AM
The same people who hilariously lolled after seeing people take this sort of thing seriously.
The same people who use swords, which have crystalline atomic structures, as spell components for Cone of Cold.


The human body has crystalline lattices in it. Does that mean you can use humans as spewll components?

If you ever lose your spell component pouch: makes a great way to sacrifice yourself.
"It will break every bond in my body but I'll destroy you!"
"Don't you mean bone?"
"Cone of cold...bye guys....*dissolves*"

MickJay
2010-02-11, 07:32 AM
Would it be unreasonable to assume that, since duration is defined only for spells, all the references to duration in spell/effect descriptions only refer to the time for which the spell/magical effects last? The point of having definitions for terms is to make it clear what they mean exactly and when they apply. Non magical effects don't have a "duration", they just last for some time.

Also, the discussion should have ended after Moglorosh's post. If IHS ends the effect of a spell/effect/condition, and the target is "you", how can ending the source of the effect be a valid interpretation? It'd be like getting a "get out of jail" card (target: you, ends the sentence) and trying to use it to overthrow the legal system (since that's what put you in jail in the first place). As it is, the laws are still in effect, but the particular way in which they were affecting the card's owner has now ended.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 07:38 AM
Would it be unreasonable to assume that, since duration is defined only for spells, all the references to duration in spell/effect descriptions only refer to the time for which the spell/magical effects last? The point of having definitions for terms is to make it clear what they mean exactly and when they apply. Non magical effects don't have a "duration", they just last for some time.

Also, the discussion should have ended after Moglorosh's post. If IHS ends the effect of a spell/effect/condition, and the target is "you", how can ending the source of the effect be a valid interpretation? It'd be like getting a "get out of jail" card (target: you, ends the sentence) and trying to use it to overthrow the legal system (since that's what put you in jail in the first place). As it is, the laws are still in effect, but the particular way in which they were affecting the card's owner has now ended.

It doesn't end it for you only, it ends the effect. The whole result of a spell is one effect, hence, an AMF gets smashed.

MickJay
2010-02-11, 07:49 AM
See, that's the problem. The more reasonable (and less broken) interpretation, which seems to follow RAI, means that what IHS does end the effect OF the "spell/effect/condition" affecting "you", not the "spell/effect/condition" in general. Range is "personal", after all.

Oslecamo
2010-02-11, 07:54 AM
The human body has crystalline lattices in it. Does that mean you can use humans as spewll components?


Only if you're an humie. We don't know that much about elven/dwarf/orc biology.:smalltongue:



If you ever lose your spell component pouch: makes a great way to sacrifice yourself.
"It will break every bond in my body but I'll destroy you!"
"Don't you mean bone?"
"Cone of cold...bye guys....*dissolves*"

Why sacrifice yourself when you can touch the human BBEG and consume his as a spell component?:smallbiggrin:

On IHS:It's very poorly worded. But hey, claiming that it can end any effect isn't that worst than claiming that you can create custom planes with the time trait or that druids automaticaly are familiar with every animal in existence to the minimum detail.

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-11, 08:47 AM
The only reasonable way to treat IHS is to houserule it into something completely different from its current state.

Letting it not require an action (though perhaps require you to give up your standard action next round) and affect most items on the Conditions Summary list (with the obvious exception of Death, and possibly Disabled, Dying, Exhausted, Fatigued, Flat-Footed [which would become a problem if you let IHS not require an action], and Incoporeal) is the most sensible way to do it.

That way, IHS lets you overcome paralysis and such by heroic willpower, which its current version does not, without letting you destroy antimagic fields and possibly planets, which the current version does.

I use it more or less in this way.

Oslecamo
2010-02-11, 08:53 AM
I use it more or less in this way.

Care to explain your version in more detail? I would be interested in a more defensive IHS that doesn't outright say "Can't touch this!"

Jayabalard
2010-02-11, 08:56 AM
These people need to be shot because swords, typically made of metal alloys, typically do not have crystalline structures.Citation needed.

From this article about Amorphous Metals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_Metals), it appears that most steel alloys are indeed crystalline, and that amorphous steel alloys are a fairly recent discovery: "More recently, batches of amorphous steel have been produced that demonstrate strengths much greater than conventional steel alloys."

From Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel): "Carbon and other elements act as a hardening agent, preventing dislocations in the iron atom crystal lattice from sliding past one another."

From Dislocations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dislocation): "In materials science, a dislocation is a crystallographic defect, or irregularity, within a crystal structure."

So it seems clear that steel, a metal alloy, is crystalline.

Oslecamo
2010-02-11, 08:59 AM
Citation needed.

From this article about Amorphous Metals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_Metals), it appears that most steel alloys are indeed crystalline, and that amorphous steel alloys are a fairly recent discovery: "More recently, batches of amorphous steel have been produced that demonstrate strengths much greater than conventional steel alloys."

Much greater strenght?

Like, adamantine? Or +X enchantment? Aren't PC much more likely to walk around with weapons of those kinds than with average steel weapons?:smalltongue:

Jayabalard
2010-02-11, 09:03 AM
Like, adamantine?Considering what that word is from, I'd say no. Adamant = diamond, so that implies that it's still crystalline.


Or +X enchantment? No, not like that at all.

Oslecamo
2010-02-11, 09:07 AM
Considering what that word is from, I'd say no. Adamant = diamond, so that implies that it's still crystalline.

Nope, adamant="something really hard". So an amorphous substance would qualify.




No, not like that at all.

Who says that the enchantment process that makes the sword harder/stronger isn't turning it's structure amorphous?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 09:08 AM
See, that's the problem. The more reasonable (and less broken) interpretation, which seems to follow RAI, means that what IHS does end the effect OF the "spell/effect/condition" affecting "you", not the "spell/effect/condition" in general. Range is "personal", after all.

Well, CustServ has already said that it breaks the entire spell, effect, or condition.

And if you rule it your way you're handing casters an easier Initiate of Mystra. Not good.

Ormagoden
2010-02-11, 10:18 AM
These people need to be shot because swords, typically made of metal alloys, typically do not have crystalline structures.

Actually metal has a crystalline structure...

Serves me right for not reading the whole thread.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-12, 02:56 AM
Duration is defined for spells at least.

And things can exist without having that specialised kind of duration.

EDIT: Ninjaed. What TDO said.

Ah, my house of cards has fallen in...:smalltongue:
It was fun while it lasted.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 04:24 AM
Ah, my house of cards has fallen in...:smalltongue:
It was fun while it lasted.

The thing is, though, that you CAN Iron Heart Surge away magical illumination like a Daylight spell. Just not the sun.

Eldan
2010-02-12, 04:36 AM
Nope, adamant="something really hard". So an amorphous substance would qualify.?

It is the same word, actually, or at least derived from the same root.

Anyway. More conditions: "I'm not real". Of course, most of my characters are the kind of people I really wouldn't want to meet.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 04:39 AM
It is the same word, actually, or at least derived from the same root.

They have the same root. That's pretty far from saying that they are the same thing. Anything that is really hard can be qualified as adamant. A diamond is a body made of a specific crystaline structure of carbon. A diamond is an adamant body, but the contrary is not always true.

2xMachina
2010-02-12, 07:53 AM
It is the same word, actually, or at least derived from the same root.

Anyway. More conditions: "I'm not real". Of course, most of my characters are the kind of people I really wouldn't want to meet.

The Fourth Wall! I must break it!

BenTheJester
2010-04-16, 09:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrvWLdyG4Uw

replace "Odor Blocker Body Wash" by Iron Heart Surge