PDA

View Full Version : Can incatatrix metamagic abilities work for divine spells?



Os1ris09
2010-02-10, 11:00 PM
Hey guys can the metamagic cost reduction from Incantatrix work on DMM for metamagic feats for divine spells?

So you have a build like thus

Cleric XX//WizXX/IncantatrixXX

With these feats:

Extend Spell
Persist spell
DMM Persist

Superglucose
2010-02-10, 11:30 PM
It lowers the spell bump. So for instance, a Persisted Divine Power would take a 9th level slot (4+5) rather than a 10th level slot (4+6).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-10, 11:49 PM
Yes, it counts for everything including DMM Persist.

But if you're an Incantatrix, you shouldn't need DMM Persist in the first place, because you have Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic.

Os1ris09
2010-02-11, 02:17 AM
While that is true for the Incantatrix in PGtF I am using the version from Magic of faerun. That one does not have those class abilities therefore I need DMM.

The build I am going for is very "simple"

Dragon-wrought Kobold (saint)
OR
Sainted Dragonborn Warforged (just replace dragon-wrought with adamantine body)

C-Cleric 5/ Bone Knight 10/ Ordained Champion 5 (not in that order)//Sorcerer 6/ Incantatrix 10/ Sorcerer 4

Domains: Planning and Undeath ( I believe undeath gives you extra turning and planning gives you extend spell)

Feats:
Flaw- Iron will
Flaw- Dragon-wrought
BD: Extend Spell
BD: Extra Turning
1st: Skill focus [religion]
3rd: Persist Spell
6th: Divine Metamagic
9th: Twin Spell
12th: Knowledge Devotion
15th: Quicken Spell
18th: Craft Contingent Spell

Now if I am understanding Ccleric from UA correctly you gain the knowledge domain not a bonus domain correct? if so look below at ACF's

ACF:
Restoration variant in Dungeonscape give up Knowledge domain (I do not need all knowledge skills for lack of skill points unless I take knowledge devotion)

I know what you're going to say "you can't take 2 PrC's at once"

Just so I can answer it now HE HAS OKAY'd that rule because he believes that gaining regular levels is the same as gaining PrC's level just they're more specific but are just as hard to earn because of Prereq's.

Any advice for the build as far as equips and ACF's or anything on the Sorcerer side

KellKheraptis
2010-02-11, 02:23 AM
My main advice would be spring for the 3.5 version, as it's twice as nice. Metamagic Effect + high Int + Academic Priest = almost total Int SAD. You'll still need Wis for um...bonus slots I think, but everything else will be Int based, and turn attempts are cheap. Trust me, Metamagic Effect is that awesome. Wanna debuff an army after you crippled the leader? Metamagic Effect Chain to the lot of them. Wanna make your buddy the Mailman into Fed Ex International? Twin that nasty Orb O' Death! Or everyone's favorite : Take 7 levels of Iot7V and persist the veils. Welcome to Star Mode, only you don't die when you fall in a pit.

Os1ris09
2010-02-11, 02:43 AM
My main advice would be spring for the 3.5 version, as it's twice as nice. Metamagic Effect + high Int + Academic Priest = almost total Int SAD. You'll still need Wis for um...bonus slots I think, but everything else will be Int based, and turn attempts are cheap. Trust me, Metamagic Effect is that awesome. Wanna debuff an army after you crippled the leader? Metamagic Effect Chain to the lot of them. Wanna make your buddy the Mailman into Fed Ex International? Twin that nasty Orb O' Death! Or everyone's favorite : Take 7 levels of Iot7V and persist the veils. Welcome to Star Mode, only you don't die when you fall in a pit.

So what would that build look like then? Taking the same Ccleric side how would the Sorcerer Side look? Or would you take wizard instead?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 02:49 AM
So what would that build look like then? Taking the same Ccleric side how would the Sorcerer Side look? Or would you take wizard instead?

Wizard works better because Spellcraft is Int-based and you get the abilities 3+Int/day.

Os1ris09
2010-02-11, 02:57 AM
Ok so then the build would be as above except for the Sorcerer side will be replaced with this:

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Initiate of the Seven Fold veil 5 ( I want to get to seven but I want incantatrix at 10 and dont know how to get 3rd lvl spells without 5 wizard lvls and I can't use Mystic Thuerge to increase it on any side. :smallfrown:)

faceroll
2010-02-11, 02:59 AM
Get an item familiar if you're going 3.5 incantatrix. Makes that spellcraft crap so much easier.

Os1ris09
2010-02-11, 03:04 AM
Get an item familiar if you're going 3.5 incantatrix. Makes that spellcraft crap so much easier.

How???? :smallconfused:

faceroll
2010-02-11, 03:13 AM
How???? :smallconfused:

Ok.
3.5 incant lets you make spellcraft checks to add metamagic to spells being cast or that are already in effect. These checks are very hard to make.

Item familiars (on SRD under variant rules; find your own damn link) let you invest skill ranks in them. FOr every three skill ranks you invest, you get a +1 unnamed bonus to any skill you have ranks in, up to the number of ranks in that skill you have. Item familiar basically doubles the number of ranks you have in a skill (you can't early qualify for a prc or anything). It's a feat that gives you level +3 bonus to a skill or three.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-11, 03:20 AM
I would also cap the Wizard side with Halruuan Adept instead of Iot7V. I used it as an example, but with Incantatrix persist tech, you can emulate most if not all of it, only better. Also, Halruuan Elder 5 gives you two 1 level reductions to two metamagic feats (my usual are reach and chain), 2 signature spells, and most importantly, Circle Magic. Hello CL 40 at 20th level spell slots, with Empower and Maximize applied if they can be. Also, what were you planning on the divine side? Wanna be the true ultimate caster? Go Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Divine Disciple 5 (or any combo of 5 divine advancing classes, really), and make sure to pick up Initiate of Mystra. Now persist an AMF, and revel in the fact that you're immune to it, while having the full firepower of an Incantalruuan. Think of it as Potarra Earrings meets Batman and Superman, or SSJ4 Vegito (which I know didn't happen in the story, but that's close to maybe a quarter of what an Incantalruuan Cheater of Mystra can do).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 03:54 AM
I would also cap the Wizard side with Halruuan Adept instead of Iot7V. I used it as an example, but with Incantatrix persist tech, you can emulate most if not all of it, only better. Also, Halruuan Elder 5 gives you two 1 level reductions to two metamagic feats (my usual are reach and chain), 2 signature spells, and most importantly, Circle Magic. Hello CL 40 at 20th level spell slots, with Empower and Maximize applied if they can be. Also, what were you planning on the divine side? Wanna be the true ultimate caster? Go Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Divine Disciple 5 (or any combo of 5 divine advancing classes, really), and make sure to pick up Initiate of Mystra. Now persist an AMF, and revel in the fact that you're immune to it, while having the full firepower of an Incantalruuan. Think of it as Potarra Earrings meets Batman and Superman, or SSJ4 Vegito (which I know didn't happen in the story, but that's close to maybe a quarter of what an Incantalruuan Cheater of Mystra can do).

Initiate of Mystra doesn't make you immune to an AMF, it merely allows you to cast in it.

Os1ris09
2010-02-11, 09:34 AM
I would also cap the Wizard side with Halruuan Adept instead of Iot7V. I used it as an example, but with Incantatrix persist tech, you can emulate most if not all of it, only better. Also, Halruuan Elder 5 gives you two 1 level reductions to two metamagic feats (my usual are reach and chain), 2 signature spells, and most importantly, Circle Magic. Hello CL 40 at 20th level spell slots, with Empower and Maximize applied if they can be. Also, what were you planning on the divine side? Wanna be the true ultimate caster? Go Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Divine Disciple 5 (or any combo of 5 divine advancing classes, really), and make sure to pick up Initiate of Mystra. Now persist an AMF, and revel in the fact that you're immune to it, while having the full firepower of an Incantalruuan. Think of it as Potarra Earrings meets Batman and Superman, or SSJ4 Vegito (which I know didn't happen in the story, but that's close to maybe a quarter of what an Incantalruuan Cheater of Mystra can do).

On the divine side I had listed as the following

C-cleric 5/Bone Knight 10/ Ordained Champion 5

But I may change that to get full casting on the Divine side so that way I am casting 9th lvl divine and arcane spells and not loosing CL


Ok.
3.5 incant lets you make spellcraft checks to add metamagic to spells being cast or that are already in effect. These checks are very hard to make.

Item familiars (on SRD under variant rules; find your own damn link) let you invest skill ranks in them.

I can understand saying you need to find your own link but to say it with attitude isn't very nice man

Os1ris09
2010-02-11, 06:44 PM
I would also cap the Wizard side with Halruuan Adept instead of Iot7V

I can't find this anywhere? Is it a class or a PrC or what??


Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5

I am assuming that this is a regular cleric worshiping Mystra?? Or is it an actual class because I cant find it in the PrC index on the wizards of the coast.


Initiate of Mystra.

Is this a feat??

olentu
2010-02-11, 06:59 PM
I can't find this anywhere? Is it a class or a PrC or what??



I am assuming that this is a regular cleric worshiping Mystra?? Or is it an actual class because I cant find it in the PrC index on the wizards of the coast.



Is this a feat??

Prestiege class in shining south page 27.

Cloistered cleric is a variant cleric class from unearthed arcana.

It is a feat in the players guide to faerun.

Weezer
2010-02-11, 07:01 PM
I can't find this anywhere? Is it a class or a PrC or what??
Its a feat from Shining South. Unless he meant Haluuran Elder which is a PrC from the same book. (I think thats what he meant seeing that he suggests capping off wizard with it.)



I am assuming that this is a regular cleric worshiping Mystra?? Or is it an actual class because I cant find it in the PrC index on the wizards of the coast.
Its a regular cleric who worships Mystra.




Is this a feat??
Its a feat that allows you to cast in a Antimagic field if you pass a CL check DC 11+spell level. Its from players guide to faerun.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 11:35 PM
Cloistered Cleric is a variant cleric that loses BAB and Hit Die size in return for bardic knowledge, the Knowledge domain, more skill points, and some more spells on the list. The BAB is fixed by Divine Power, making it a very strong variant.

Os1ris09
2010-02-11, 11:39 PM
Ok so the new build is the following (not to cheese it to much because of reduced Metamagic cheese)

So here it is:

Saint Dragonborn Human CG

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5/ Dweomerkeeper 10/ Divine Oracle 2/ Contemplative 1// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Halruuan Elder5

Domains: Planning, Magic (DM said I can have planning to make build work)

Feat progression:
Bonus Domain: Extend Spell
Flaw 1: Quicken Spell
Flaw 2: Empower Spell
Human: Twin Spell
1: Reach Spell
3: Iron Will
6: Create Wand
9: Craft contingent Spell
12: Persist Spell
15: Skill Focus [religion]
18: Sculpt Spell

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:25 AM
Ok so the new build is the following (not to cheese it to much because of reduced Metamagic cheese)

So here it is:

Saint Dragonborn Human CG

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5/ Dweomerkeeper 10/ Divine Oracle 2/ Contemplative 1// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Halruuan Elder5

Domains: Planning, Magic (DM said I can have planning to make build work)

Feat progression:
Bonus Domain: Extend Spell
Flaw 1: Quicken Spell
Flaw 2: Empower Spell
Human: Twin Spell
1: Reach Spell
3: Iron Will
6: Create Wand
9: Craft contingent Spell
12: Persist Spell
15: Skill Focus [religion]
18: Sculpt Spell

You've got five bonus metamagic feats, you know. One from Wizard 5 and four from Incantatrix 1, 4, 7, and 10.

Os1ris09
2010-02-12, 01:33 AM
You've got five bonus metamagic feats, you know. One from Wizard 5 and four from Incantatrix 1, 4, 7, and 10.

HAHA I forgot about that. Well then what would GITP suggest as feats then since I can just take the metamagic feats as those bonus feats. The only ones you cant supplement are the 1,3,6 feats and the incantatrix 1,4 feats:

Build:

Human Saint
C-Cleric of Mystra 5/ Dweomerkeeper 10/ Divine Oracle 2/ Contemplative 1/C-cleric 2// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Abjurant Champion 5

Domains: Planning, Travel (contemplative), Magic

Feat progression:
Bonus Domain: Extend Spell
Wizard 5: Quicken Spell
Incantatrix 1: Empower Spell
Incantatrix 4: Twin Spell
Incantatrix 7: Persist Spell
Incantatrix 10: Sculpt Spell
1: Reach Spell
3: Iron Will
6: Create Wand
9: Craft contingent Spell
12: Repeat Spell
15: Skill Focus [religion]
18: Split Ray

The idea with that feat list is that I want to be able to take advantage of the Spellcraft checks granted by Incantatrix and use multiple checks to take advantage of this combination (if applicable)

Reach Spell >> Chain Spell

Repeat Spell >> Split Ray (for minor low level ray spells such as envervating ray or scroching ray)

Extend Spell>> Persist Spell (to persist mage armor and shield)

Reason for Abjurant Champion is that I can sell armor and use bracers of armor and add Fortification, Heavy to them and just use mage armor and Shield for the actual AC.

Os1ris09
2010-02-12, 09:08 PM
Hey guys I can't find the item that lets you make the spellcraft check easier for Incantatrix? Is it an item or is a familar type thingy?

SilverStar
2010-02-13, 10:11 PM
Hey guys I can't find the item that lets you make the spellcraft check easier for Incantatrix? Is it an item or is a familar type thingy?

Item Familiars are in Unearthed Arcana. I believe they're listed in the totally free SRD as well.

You're gonna need decent spellcraft checks as an incantatrix.

Abjurant Champion is absolutely not necessary....wait, you're gestalting it.

Eesh. Okay.

You're gonna want to persist spells that are better than mage armor; wraithstrike's good for this if you're of martial bent.

Ocular Spell (from Lords of Madness) has some, er, strange interactions that some find rather interesting.

Os1ris09
2010-02-13, 10:27 PM
Item Familiars are in Unearthed Arcana. I believe they're listed in the totally free SRD as well.

You're gonna need decent spellcraft checks as an incantatrix.

Abjurant Champion is absolutely not necessary....wait, you're gestalting it.

Eesh. Okay.

You're gonna want to persist spells that are better than mage armor; wraithstrike's good for this if you're of martial bent.

Ocular Spell (from Lords of Madness) has some, er, strange interactions that some find rather interesting.

Unfortunately I do not have Lords of Madness. Abjurant Champion I realize is not needed but I was thinking I should make use of all the Abjuration spells I am going to cast. I also do not know of any other armor AC granting spells other than Greater Mage Armor which I believe grants +6 armor AC.

olentu
2010-02-13, 10:41 PM
Unfortunately I do not have Lords of Madness. Abjurant Champion I realize is not needed but I was thinking I should make use of all the Abjuration spells I am going to cast. I also do not know of any other armor AC granting spells other than Greater Mage Armor which I believe grants +6 armor AC.

Unfortunately greater mage armor like regular mage armor is in the conjuration school.

An armor bonus to AC abjuration spell however is the luminous armor exalted spell from the book of exalted deeds as I recall. There is also a greater version.

Os1ris09
2010-02-14, 12:22 AM
Unfortunately greater mage armor like regular mage armor is in the conjuration school.

An armor bonus to AC abjuration spell however is the luminous armor exalted spell from the book of exalted deeds as I recall. There is also a greater version.

Ok I will look into that. Does Abjurant Champion work with that spell, as in does it add its class lvl to that Spells AC?

SilverStar
2010-02-14, 12:23 AM
Absolutely, as it's of the abjuration school. There IS a small matter of some ability damage at the end of the spell's duration, but it's a negligible amount, and easily overcome.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 12:26 AM
Archivist with a 1 level dip in a PrC that grants turning may be more advantageous, as it sets divine casting off of Int.

SilverStar
2010-02-14, 12:27 AM
Not to mention archivist gives you access to pretty much whatever in the way of spells, as long as your DM lets you.

Os1ris09
2010-02-14, 12:34 AM
Well here is the bad part I already started playing the character and no re-training allowed so I am stuck with this build. Right now I am this:

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 3//Wizard 3

So I think I will just buy Orb of Mental Renewal and a rod of Bodily Restoration to offset the ability damage.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 12:42 AM
Well here is the bad part I already started playing the character and no re-training allowed so I am stuck with this build. Right now I am this:

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 3//Wizard 3

So I think I will just buy Orb of Mental Renewal and a rod of Bodily Restoration to offset the ability damage.

Archivist 3 // Wizard 3 would be a more solid build. It's all Int. There is a way to salvage it though.

C. Cleric 5 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Cleric + // Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 2 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Incantatrix +8

That'll put all your casting off of wisdom. It's also horribly broken, but it will put it off of wisdom.

Os1ris09
2010-02-14, 01:01 AM
Archivist 3 // Wizard 3 would be a more solid build. It's all Int. There is a way to salvage it though.

C. Cleric 5 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Cleric + // Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 2 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Incantatrix +8

That'll put all your casting off of wisdom. It's also horribly broken, but it will put it off of wisdom.

I can't seem to find the Subverted Psion Class. Can you guys tell me where it is so I can take a look at it.

SilverStar
2010-02-14, 01:08 AM
Right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a).

Mixing incantatrix with tainted scholar and this... this guy's gonna get Heroes of Horror chucked at him.:smalltongue:

Os1ris09
2010-02-14, 01:29 AM
Archivist 3 // Wizard 3 would be a more solid build. It's all Int. There is a way to salvage it though.

C. Cleric 5 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Cleric + // Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 2 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Incantatrix +8

That'll put all your casting off of wisdom. It's also horribly broken, but it will put it off of wisdom.

OK I read the subverted Psion and the Tainted Scholar class and here is what I don't like about it:

1) I did not see anyway to get INT to be my primary casting stat for Cleric
2) The campaign is not evil based and all spells cast from tainted scholar are evil
3) You stump Cleric casting to CL 18 instead of keeping Cleric Progression like Dweomerkeeper does.

So I am going to have to say no to this particular build and Stay with the Dweomerkeeper Incantacheese build.