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View Full Version : Warlock or Shadowcaster? What Would You Choose?



Golden-Esque
2010-02-11, 01:32 AM
So I had a player ask me today why I don't have any inherently 'dark' spellcasters in my campaign. I pointed out that one could play as a Cleric/Favored Soul of an Evil God, or be a Wizard/Sorcerer with a repertoire of darkness or necromancy spells, they weren't really what the player was looking for in a class.

With this in mind, what do you think is better? The 3.5 Warlock or the 3.5 Shadowcaster (from the Tome of Magic). My initial impressions is that the Warlock is on the simplistic side with its signature power (Eldritch Blast) and Shadowcaster is something of a full-scale Wizard/Sorcerer with a tiered type of power system that reminds me of 4th Edition in the same way Tome of Battle is an early 4th Edition.

I like the concept of the Shadowcaster, but I'm not entirely digging its name, and without experience I'm not sure how powerful/lack there of it is. Likewise, I'm not sure how enjoyable Warlock is, since it looks like "I cast Eldritch Blast. Again."

What do you, Giantitp Community, think on the subject?

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 01:41 AM
Let's see here...

When I asked about shadowcasters, assuming I remember the reaction correctly, the overwhelming response was "If you start anytime before 8th level, your character won't function for the better part of the day, because you ran out of things to cast."

Warlocks have the opposite problem, never running out, but not having power. Yes, you'll repeat things a lot, but then... so does fighter. That's probably not a good example.

I feel like you can go with the binder. I barely remember how that class functions, but I seem to recall it "something like the magic in The Bartimaeus Trilogy, what with the binding of the demons to do your bidding". If you fluff it like that, it becomes evil. Sort of. And binder is a decent tiered caster.

You could also go with Dread Necromancer. I'm not really sure what it does, but it has "necromancer" in the name.

gorfnab
2010-02-11, 01:46 AM
The Warlock is usually more versatile than the Shadowcaster. However with the right fixes (Descent Of Shadows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519)) you can also make the Shadowcaster work. Warlock's have an always available source of damage and abilities that can be used at will. However they only get 12 invocations. Shadowcasters get 20 mysteries and a handful of fundamentals but have little source of direct damage. I have played both in the past. I like the Warlock for its ability to basically be "always on" and its ability to nicely handle magic items. I like the shadowcaster for its battlefield manipulation and its stealth.

Builds that I enjoy for both classes:
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Theurge 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3

Whisper Gnome Rogue X (usually 1 level, sometimes 3 for Penetrating Strike) / Shadowcaster X - with the feats Magic in the Blood, Silencing Strike, and Craven.

Godskook
2010-02-11, 01:52 AM
I think warlocks are fun, but I like reliability a lot. Also try looking at the beguiler and dread necromancer.

Tier-wise, Jaronk's list puts warlocks as a tier 4 class, beguiler/Dread as tier 3, and binder as tier 3(unless you give them the summon monster vestige from the web enhancement, which boosts them to tier 2). Since Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Favored Souls all occupy tiers 1 and 2, the power levels presented here shouldn't be an issue, but be aware the with the warlock's reliability also comes a lot more ease of optimization, so a warlock's power will seem different based on how well the rest of the group optimizes.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-02-11, 01:52 AM
You could be both. Use early entry cheese to qualify for noctumancer with a one level dip in wizard or sorcerer.

sonofzeal
2010-02-11, 02:00 AM
CharOp gives the Shadowcaster a solid 5.03/10, putting it slightly below Warmages (5.41) as far as casters go. The only proper caster below it is the Healer (3.21). Still, it's decent enough to be playable, and certainly no Truenamer (2.66).

Redrat2k6
2010-02-11, 02:12 AM
I played a level 12 warlock and it was so great.

I had craft contingency spell feat and the Imbue Item ability so I could have 12 of any wizard/sorc spell with whatever conditions I wanted. Plus all the usual good warlock stuff. This + thought bottle = happy warlock.

I was planning to take a level of binder and go hellfire warlock after that but the game ended. :smallfrown:

Edge of Dreams
2010-02-11, 02:20 AM
Shadowcaster improves significantly with the fix written by the original author of the class.

Link: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html

That said, Warlock = all day blasting, with a few tricks up his sleeve, while Shadowcaster is closer to your standard sorcerer. Pick whichever appeals to you more.

Final note: Warlocks have WAY more supplemental material written for them, whereas the only Shadowcaster content is in Tome of Magic. /Cry

Zaq
2010-02-11, 03:06 AM
It depends entirely on the starting level. If I were a high enough level to actually not end up using a crossbow more than once or twice, I would go with the Shadowcaster, because they're more interesting. If you're at a low-to-mid level, though, Warlock all the way, simply because they won't run out of juice after two encounters.

Don't let anyone confuse you... Shadowcasters are not weak. They simply aren't robust enough to keep going after too long. They get relatively few castings per day, and more importantly, they can't choose what those castings are, so they can't allocate their resources as they wish. (Even a non-specialist wizard, with relatively few castings per day, can prep two or more of the same spell, if he deems it necessary. A shadowcaster cannot.)

My preferred houserule for Shadowcasters is to let them qualify for reserve feats. Really, they're not bad. They're just... lacking stamina.

Incidentally, if I ever get to play in a gestalt game, warlock//shadowcaster is on my short list of class combinations to try. It's definitely got a weakness (namely, that it has very few uses for swift actions, and actions are even more precious in gestalt than in real play, so failing to capitalize on your swifts is a bad thing), but the two cover each other's weaknesses very nicely.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 08:09 AM
You could be both. Use early entry cheese to qualify for noctumancer with a one level dip in wizard or sorcerer.

Or just be a Child of Night, which Warlocks easily qualify for. Warlock with some mysteries, great flavor.


CharOp gives the Shadowcaster a solid 5.03/10, putting it slightly below Warmages (5.41) as far as casters go. The only proper caster below it is the Healer (3.21). Still, it's decent enough to be playable, and certainly no Truenamer (2.66).

Where'd you find these ratings?

Morty
2010-02-11, 08:13 AM
Concept-wise, I like Shadowcaster much better - I'm not too fond of the Warlock. Mechanics-wise I've no idea, since I don't have Tome of Magic and I've only heard that Shadowcaster is rather weak.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 08:27 AM
Concept-wise, I like Shadowcaster much better - I'm not too fond of the Warlock. Mechanics-wise I've no idea, since I don't have Tome of Magic and I've only heard that Shadowcaster is rather weak.

The need to finish paths, the low versatility of their Mysteries, and the limited uses/day tend to scupper them somewhat.

The flavor's also a bit bland. Gloom, gloom, gloom.

Compare to a Binder, who can be the life of the party after a bad pact or two - Standing on his table in a tavern to address all the patrons, vigorously arguing against any plan that splits the party, sneering at every sorcerer and woman he passes...

Starbuck_II
2010-02-11, 09:25 AM
The need to finish paths, the low versatility of their Mysteries, and the limited uses/day tend to scupper them somewhat.

The flavor's also a bit bland. Gloom, gloom, gloom.

Compare to a Binder, who can be the life of the party after a bad pact or two - Standing on his table in a tavern to address all the patrons, vigorously arguing against any plan that splits the party, sneering at every sorcerer and woman he passes...

Taking a mystery a second timer as a known gives you double your current amount (so if you can use it twice, you can use 4 times).
Drawback you get 1 less known. So if you really need more uses do it, but otherwise...

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-11, 10:21 AM
I happen to enjoy Warlocks, although Dragonfire Adepts are also a solid choice. I love the fact that they simply do not run out. Granted, they aren't as powerful as Wizards who have access to Save Point technology with Rope Trick and MMM, but they're still perfectly viable.

Warlocks, mid-game, are fairly survivable, with escape routes like Walk Unseen, Fell Flight, and Flee The Scene. That are at-will abilities. Then you get stuff like Chilling Tentacles for battlefield control.

arguskos
2010-02-11, 10:57 AM
Personally, I like Shadowcasters far more than Warlocks, but for ease of use and ease of play, Warlocks take the cake on this one.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-11, 12:18 PM
I suggest Warlock.

This comes from a slight bias, considering in my longest-running Dark Sun-esq campaign, I ran a Tiefling Warlock/Rogue/Spellwarp Sniper (DM treated EB as a ray spell). I did some nasty damage, often hiding in the sand and sniping even the toughest foes. Heck, I one-Rounded a dragon with my eldritch snipe (Note: I invoked the one that did negative levels. Needless to say -3 Levels + Crit + Buttloads of Sneak Attack die = one dead Black Dragon

the humanity
2010-02-11, 12:29 PM
warlock. more use as a weapon. I have little doubt in my mind that the drive for making the warlock was a simple spellcaster for people who don't want to have to run through long lists every time they level up.

of course with feats and invocations, there are still a few lists, but when you only need 2-3 it becomes much easier to do, I think.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-11, 04:40 PM
I have in the past simply allowed a player to combine both classes, removing the magic-item focused warlock abilities and making everything work off Cha. The warlock is good at low levels but starts to lose steam by mid levels, and the shadowcaster has the crossbow issue at first but really starts to take off later on, so putting the two together spreads and flattens the power curve to make it work at all levels.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-11, 04:45 PM
Unless the Shadowcaster is using one of the fixes it isn't going to look good next to normal casters. Shadowcasters are weaker, less flexible and run out of spells faster than any normal caster.

Warlocks are fun if you are willing to have a few abilities that you can use indefinitely. I'd personally rather play a Warlock, because being completely out of options half way through the day is *not fun*.

If you want a "dark" caster, may I recommend the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror?

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 06:13 PM
If you want a "dark" caster, may I recommend the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror?

Hey, someone who agrees with me, but actually knows what he's talking about.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 07:11 PM
Dread Necro is a melee class for the first 5-8 levels, then it becomes a leader with a massive undead army at its back.

Two things to make that class shine in a party:

1) Have everyone in your party take Tpmb-Tainted Soul, so you can provide them with unlimited healing by tapping them on the shoulder;
2) Have your DM houserule Desecrate to be Necromancy instead of Evocation (seriously WotC, what were you thinking?) so you can grab it with an Advanced Learning. Or just dip cleric with PA for it, even with one level it'll last for 2 hours.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 07:28 PM
Compare to a Binder, who can be the life of the party after a bad pact or two - Standing on his table in a tavern to address all the patrons, vigorously arguing against any plan that splits the party, sneering at every sorcerer and woman he passes...

...cough rocks for 24 hours, have an arrow stuck in your junk...

JoshuaZ
2010-02-11, 07:37 PM
Hey, someone who agrees with me, but actually knows what he's talking about.

Not sure that's true. But the Dread Necromancer is very flavorfull and well done. It is also easy to play since it has a fixed spell-list and then only a handful of advanced learning spells. So it can be played with minimal thinking or deep planning depending on what you want. The class features fit the fluff very well.

The only issue is that at low levels you have to be a bit too meleeish to be that helpful, and you're still quite squishy at those levels. I know that some people move animate dead to a 3rd level spell for dread necromancers which makes sense and helps deal with this a little bit.

But, you are a big bad necromancer. Even if you try to do good, you know you'll do it through horrific means. And just by existing and progressing in a natural fashion you'll slowly turn into an immortal undead monstrosity. What's not to like?

AmberVael
2010-02-11, 07:45 PM
Between the two options, I'd go with Warlock.

It's less like a normal caster, you don't have to worry about per day limitations, and you can get some fun abilities.

No, it's not very potent in comparison to other classes, but if well created it can be relatively versatile, and certainly can be fun. However, I've always thought it could use just a few more invocations... depends on what power level most of your other characters are on, really.

As long as you select a good variety of invocations and feats, you should be able to contribute.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 07:47 PM
...cough rocks for 24 hours, have an arrow stuck in your junk...

I know! Isn't it great? :smallbiggrin:

(if the arrowhead ends up in your junk, just pull it out and it will randomly relocate.)

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 08:01 PM
I know! Isn't it great? :smallbiggrin:

(if the arrowhead ends up in your junk, just pull it out and it will randomly relocate.)


http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/heavy-didnt-want-doc-ock-rokc.jpg

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 08:07 PM
Pfft. You big baby. :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 08:09 PM
Pfft. You big baby. :smalltongue:

This is where Suppress Sign comes in handy. Pun not intended.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-11, 08:11 PM
<that image>

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k236/Prroul/OMGOVERSHARE.jpg

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 08:21 PM
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k236/Prroul/OMGOVERSHARE.jpg

Thank you Halolz for coming in handy yet again! Oh, and if you thought that one was creepy, here's one for the Bioshock fans:

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/halolz-dot-com-bioshock2-toomuchbioshock.jpg