New games that should be remade as old games

[Otogi]

Alright, so inspired by article (that's no longer up), say you had the rights, money and power to transport a current age game onto a much older console. Why? I dunno, maybe somebody dared you or you just wanna show off to your friends.

But before we get started, I guess I have to set some rules on what's current and what's retro and junk like that. For current day generation, I'd say the PS2-Xbox-Gamecube is a good cutoff, since they're still fresh in our minds, while the cutoff for retro systems is the SNES-Atari-Genesis era. Also, unless they're extremely different or notable, I'd say stay away from sequels and licensed games.

So, with all that out of the way, what game would you retro-vise?

Personally, I'd go with Borderlands as an SNES game; it's a great concept for either a side-scroller or a Doom-style FPS; the RPG elements would be kinda laxed, but would still make the characters differentiated enough to make it more than cosmetic. Enemies are bright and colorful, good against the dull monochrome backgrounds and they all have some interesting attacks. Driving would probably be handled as a sort of "get-through-the-arches" game (the arches being skags).

[GolemsVoice]

Like that:
http://media.arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/ars_gameboydemakes.jpg

[Vitruviansquid]

Borderlands as a Contra clone? Yes please.

In any case, what you're talking about is referred to in some circles as a "demake," like Gang Garrison 2.

[SparkMandriller]

Like that:

What's the one in the top right?

[Vitruviansquid]

Ii'm led to believe it's Ico

[Iskandar]

Ico, definitely. Good, if slightly odd, game.

Edit: And, it should be noted, one of the few games to retain my interest long enough for me to finish it. This may not be a big thing for most people, but I tend to wander away from games when I am most of the way done. There is only about 15 games or so that have an ending that I have actually finished. Ico is one.

[Setra]

Hmm... an odd question...

As far as transforming a new game into an old one, I am not really sure, but I do think develors often focus too much on 'new', like 'new graphics' and 'new gameplay', which isn't necessarily bad... but sometimes old mechanics and graphics work fine...

Though I may be biased somewhat? I tend to prefer older, or rather simpler types of gameplay.

I guess I wouldn't mind seeing New Super Mario Bros Wii taken back, but that's kind of a cop-out... Generally speaking, I think a lot of RPGs, could be made into old games without losing too much.

[Comet]

Ultima 9. Because going back to 2D would allow them to actually execute the epic messiah story they had originally planned. Instead they ended up using only half the story ideas and adding 50% more bugs and ugly graphics to fill the void.

[shadow_archmagi]

What's the bottom left one?

[Brother Oni]

What's the bottom left one?

Diablo I believe.

[GolemsVoice]

It's STALKER (duh) Bioshock, Ico (don't know that game, though, so I go with what you guys say) Diablo, Zelda (Majora's Mask, I think) and a game I do not know.

[Gamerlord]

It's STALKER (duh) Bioshock, Ico (don't know that game, though, so I go with what you guys say) Diablo, Zelda (Majora's Mask, I think) and a game I do not know.

LOZ: Twilight princess & RE:4.

[factotum]

Given that the main advantage old games have over newer ones is that they were forced to have better gameplay and storyline to paper over the poor graphics, I'm not sure that back-porting any modern game would be worth the effort!

[Otogi]

Like that:
http://media.arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/ars_gameboydemakes.jpg

Yes! I was looking for those! Where did you find them, exactly?

[Otogi]

Given that the main advantage old games have over newer ones is that they were forced to have better gameplay and storyline to paper over the poor graphics, I'm not sure that back-porting any modern game would be worth the effort!

Fair enough, but pretend likes it's a dare, or an obligation.

[GolemsVoice]

Yes! I was looking for those! Where did you find them, exactly?
I already knew the Bioshock and Stalker one, so I just googled Bioshock gameboy and found this. Your search-fu is weak, young one.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Yes! I was looking for those! Where did you find them, exactly?

Google says http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/08/bioshock-on-the-gameboy-the-birth-of-de-makes.ars

[Optimystik]

But before we get started, I guess I have to set some rules on what's current and what's retro and junk like that. For current day generation, I'd say the PS2-Xbox-Gamecube is a good cutoff, since they're still fresh in our minds, while the cutoff for retro systems is the SNES-Atari-Genesis era.

You're missing a generation, my friend - the PS1/N64/Dreamcast era.

[Otogi]

You're missing a generation, my friend - the PS1/N64/Dreamcast era.

Intentional, friend. I had to cast one out.

[Prime32]

Well, there was Ocarina of Time 2D, though that was most likely fake or abandoned.

I saw some stuff on a Metroid Prime 2D which looks more credible.

[Zorg]

Generally speaking, I think a lot of RPGs, could be made into old games without losing too much.

I think most RPGs would benefit if they were taken back a bit. By this I mean if you compare Fallout 1/2 to Fallout 3 in terms of dialogue trees 1/2 are far deeper and contain more extranious to the main plot but world deepening quests and even just conversations.
3 is good, but having to have everything voice acted (1/2 had a mix of voice and text) can limit what can be put in due to the need to record it (multiple times for different genders), animate the models in game appropriately and it takes up more disk space.


Metroid Prime 2D was legit - I played one of the early proof of concept versions they had. Interesting but I think it suffered the fate of most group projects over the internet and most of the people involved lost interest.

[Archonic Energy]

Like that:
http://media.arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/ars_gameboydemakes.jpg

yeah, S.T.A.L.K.E.R on NES it has to be Nintendo Hard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard)

[shadow_archmagi]

Diablo I believe.

I looked at that and was sitting there thinking "Okay, so what new game did they dress up like that fossil Diablo?"

:smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

Like that:
http://media.arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/ars_gameboydemakes.jpg

...Not as GameBoy games. (S)NES all the way.

Tatsunoko vs Capcom would play exactly the same, just with SNES graphics, so let's skip that one. And Mega Man 9 & 10 are already retraux (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retraux), so we can skip those, too.

Dreamcast technologically fits in with XBox/PS2/GC, and a good number of its games were re-released on the 'Cube... and the Sonic games in the last two generations (yes, even SA and SA2) would do better as Genesis titles.

[warty goblin]

Given that the main advantage old games have over newer ones is that they were forced to have better gameplay and storyline to paper over the poor graphics, I'm not sure that back-porting any modern game would be worth the effort!

Yep, when I think of plot in videogames, the first name that always springs to my lips is: Pacman.

Sarcasm aside, I've never understood the argument that 'back in the day' games had to have better story/gameplay to make up for crappy graphics, because back in the day the graphics weren't crappy.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yep, when I think of plot in videogames, the first name that always springs to my lips is: Pacman.

Sarcasm aside, I've never understood the argument that 'back in the day' games had to have better story/gameplay to make up for crappy graphics, because back in the day the graphics weren't crappy.

While admittedly, the definition of "cutting edge" has changed, few people will ever stare at Dwarf Fortress and think "Gosh this is really beautiful just to watch"

[Vitruviansquid]

Yep, when I think of plot in videogames, the first name that always springs to my lips is: Pacman.

Sarcasm aside, I've never understood the argument that 'back in the day' games had to have better story/gameplay to make up for crappy graphics, because back in the day the graphics weren't crappy.

I'm of the opinion that games "back in the day" were better because their technology was so restrictive, they didn't have that fetish for realism that we see now. I just like unrealistic games because, not being tied down to reality, they can do more in the area of gameplay.

That's not to say that we don't have abstract games today. We certainly do and they're certainly possible to make. TF2 is a shooter that sacrifices realism for gameplay and Heroes of Might and Magic 5 (and other TBS's) are still extremely abstract. But they've grown fewer in number. Furthermore, more technology in gaming seems to have made games harder to make. I find my options getting smaller and smaller each generation (or maybe I've become more thrifty >_>) and each individual game could no longer be expected to last very long.

So yeah, that was my rant.

[Celesyne]

While admittedly, the definition of "cutting edge" has changed, few people will ever stare at Dwarf Fortress and think "Gosh this is really beautiful just to watch"

Hey, i think that all the time, especially after I've spent 3 days trying to make a complicated trap/keep/drowning pit section and finally succeed. At least until it malfunctions due to some horrible oversight and mauls/maims/mutilates my fort.

[chiasaur11]

There was a 2D half Life 2 on Steam for a time. Don't know if it's around on the internet any more, but wikipedia mentions it.

[Penguinizer]

Hmm, Would S.T.A.L.K.E.R. be better as a top-down RPG, or something similar to the old-fashioned first person rpgs?

I believe that it'd be better in first person, possibly turn based/menu based combat. Maybe as a map-based form to allow for more strategy.

[Zevox]

Yep, when I think of plot in videogames, the first name that always springs to my lips is: Pacman.

Sarcasm aside, I've never understood the argument that 'back in the day' games had to have better story/gameplay to make up for crappy graphics, because back in the day the graphics weren't crappy.
I agree. And I'd add that it doesn't seem to me that old video games really had better plots or necessarily had better gameplay than current ones. When I've played remakes or downloads of old video games, I've usually had to remind myself that the plot was good for the time, even though it's not so good by today's standards. Examples include Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon (a remake of the first Fire Emblem game), Final Fantasy IV, Dragon Quest IV and V, and to a lesser extent even Chrono Trigger. And those are all RPGs, usually the most plot-heavy of video game genres.

Plus, as you allude to with the Pacman thing, many of the old games often held to be among the best of their day and still held in high regard today had little or no plot. Take the old Mario, Mega Man, or Sonic games, for instance. Bowser has kidnapped Peach - save her! Dr. Wiley's Robots are on a rampage - fight them and him! Dr. Robotnik has stolen the chaos emeralds to use in a doomsday machine - fight him! Yeah, the "plots" pretty much just gave an excuse for the events of the game to be happening - a reason for Mario to jump around his stages, Mega Man to go shoot up robots, or Sonic to run around his stages. Nothing more.

Plus gameplay quality varied just as widely back then as it does now. Sure, I'll bet people can point to some modern game they dislike and compare its gameplay unfavorably one of their old favorites, but that doesn't mean that those are the norm of their generations. Just watch some online video game comedian/critics like the Angry Video Game Nerd or the Spoony One to see just how bad some old games can be - many of them, it seems to me, can't be compared favorably to anything that has been made since Superman 64. And it's not like gameplay these days is usually bad, or even inferior to the best of the old games, either. I like some of those old games plenty myself, particularly the original Mega Man series, but I sure wouldn't claim that most games today have inferior gameplay to those. If they did, frankly, I wouldn't play them.

Zevox

[Flickerdart]

Team Fortress 2 (http://ganggarrison.com/#download), anyone?

[Geno9999]

I agree. And I'd add that it doesn't seem to me that old video games really had better plots or necessarily had better gameplay than current ones. When I've played remakes or downloads of old video games, I've usually had to remind myself that the plot was good for the time, even though it's not so good by today's standards. Examples include Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon (a remake of the first Fire Emblem game), Final Fantasy IV, Dragon Quest IV and V, and to a lesser extent even Chrono Trigger. And those are all RPGs, usually the most plot-heavy of video game genres.

Plus, as you allude to with the Pacman thing, many of the old games often held to be among the best of their day and still held in high regard today had little or no plot. Take the old Mario, Mega Man, or Sonic games, for instance. Bowser has kidnapped Peach - save her! Dr. Wiley's Robots are on a rampage - fight them and him! Dr. Robotnik has stolen the chaos emeralds to use in a doomsday machine - fight him! Yeah, the "plots" pretty much just gave an excuse for the events of the game to be happening - a reason for Mario to jump around his stages, Mega Man to go shoot up robots, or Sonic to run around his stages. Nothing more.

Plus gameplay quality varied just as widely back then as it does now. Sure, I'll bet people can point to some modern game they dislike and compare its gameplay unfavorably one of their old favorites, but that doesn't mean that those are the norm of their generations. Just watch some online video game comedian/critics like the Angry Video Game Nerd or the Spoony One to see just how bad some old games can be - many of them, it seems to me, can't be compared favorably to anything that has been made since Superman 64. And it's not like gameplay these days is usually bad, or even inferior to the best of the old games, either. I like some of those old games plenty myself, particularly the original Mega Man series, but I sure wouldn't claim that most games today have inferior gameplay to those. If they did, frankly, I wouldn't play them.

Zevox
I totally agree. While I know that games like Super Mario Bros. 3 is often the golden ruler for how good a game is, I usually try to not to use that (TRY to, but sometimes I fail.) Usually I see SMB3 being compared to the 3D Mario games. I don't like that as to me, they're different species. Some things in a 2D game won't translate well in a 3D game (which Sonic unfortunately discovered.) Now, what's okay is something like SMB3 compared to New Super Mario Bros. Wii, as long it's not graphics.

[nooblade]

If you ask me, and I am very opinionated:
-Plot and storytelling develop more thoroughly in book form.
-Interactions between characters (drama?) and character personality development are best left for films.
-Roleplaying doesn't exist without interaction between intelligent beings.
-The "Death" of the game designer. That is, players should be able to play as fast as their input and processing are capable of and skip whatever plot, NPC speech, or cutscene that the game designer had previously thought was so very important.


None of this makes a case for older games being systematically "better" than newer ones. It's perfectly possible for designers to find some occasional hubris or something, too. But lots of the things that I hate are solved by the nice little tilde key for my emulator, that speeds past anything that I don't need to read or watch to play the game.

[GolemsVoice]

Hmm, Would S.T.A.L.K.E.R. be better as a top-down RPG, or something similar to the old-fashioned first person rpgs?

Maybe a top-down mode for when you're about in the Zone, and a first person mode when you're exploring "dungeons". The first wouldn't have RPG elements, the latter would.

[factotum]

Re: the argument concerning old games: what can I say? I'm just going with my opinion here. Although bringing up Pac-Man as an example is a strawman, because it's blatantly obvious that a game from the 70s is going to be quite simplistic. I was actually thinking more of the 1990s, and yes, I *do* believe that games in that era were generally better than modern ones, with a few notable exceptions (GTA4 and Mass Effect 2 being front and centre there). However, I don't think TIE Fighter has ever been beaten within its genre, and that game came out in 1994. As far as storyline and immersion go, you can't get much better than Ultima VII (1992) and Planescape: Torment (1999). I could continue, but I think you get the idea by now...

[Reinboom]

Re: the argument concerning old games: what can I say? I'm just going with my opinion here. Although bringing up Pac-Man as an example is a strawman, because it's blatantly obvious that a game from the 70s is going to be quite simplistic. I was actually thinking more of the 1990s, and yes, I *do* believe that games in that era were generally better than modern ones, with a few notable exceptions (GTA4 and Mass Effect 2 being front and centre there). However, I don't think TIE Fighter has ever been beaten within its genre, and that game came out in 1994. As far as storyline and immersion go, you can't get much better than Ultima VII (1992) and Planescape: Torment (1999). I could continue, but I think you get the idea by now...

I would dare you to continue.
Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape: Torment, Fallout, Fallout 2, Final Fantasy IV, Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VII (though I argue not for the same reasons as others would suggest), Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid, Starcraft, Wild Arms, Shenmue, Silent Hill... and... then... I fall short.

00s?
KotoR, KotoR II, FF... whatever, Final Fantasy: Crisis Core (seriously, try to play that ending without crying. Holy damn), Chrono Cross, Metal Gear Solid 2 (albeit, with an annoying lead), Metal Gear Solid 3, Metal Gear Solid 4, The Darkness, Eternal Darkness, some of the later Wild Arms, Persona 3, Persona 4, Shadow Hearts, Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill 3, Ratchet and Clank series (Actually pay attention to the writing, very well done), No More Heroes, Okami...

Oh, hey, I notice a few trends.

Though, I really thank Crisis Core speaks for most of itself for the power of story in the new technology. No other game has gotten me to cry by just watching over someone else's shoulder who was playing it.

[factotum]

As I said, IN MY OPINION, I don't recall any game I've played in the last 10 years that has really matched Planescape: Torment for story. KotOR was good, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it had anything like the multi-layered story that PS:T did. Half the others you cite I've never played because I don't do consoles...which may be part of the issue; I might be seeing a general decline in quality of PC games as opposed to games in general.

[Yora]

There are very good games for PS2, which you can get for 5 to 10€, and I got my PS2 for 40€. If you have a good place to set it up, I highly recommend getting one, even if it's only for 3 or 4 of the best games.

[Makensha]

As far as story and plot go, I think it boils down to who has their nostalgia glasses on at the time and when they stopped playing a specific genre of games.

For instance, I could say the best story I've ever seen is Disciples 2, but then again, I don't play a whole lot of games with a story that you're supposed to care about. (Btw, Disciples 2 can be Nintendo Hard).

As for actually staying on subject:
I'd like to see Left 4 Dead as a top-down shooter. Except it might be a little too early for internet mulitplayer support, so maybe not.
And... Uh... WoW as a top-down action rpg in the same style as Icewind Dale (and whatever was the origin of that style) but with a 5 member party all controlled by you?
Wow, I don't play a lot of recent games...

[deuxhero]

Mask of The Betrayer would work great in a stable turn based engine.

[Cespenar]

Meh, I haven't totally given up on the industry. Though many classics admittedly belong to the 1998-2001 period, Psychonauts and Dreamfall are both 2006 makes, to give a couple of examples.

[Pronounceable]

All Bioware RPGs should be made exclusively with Infinity Engine. Stop moving the $%&#* perspective!

[deuxhero]

a turn based variant of the infinity engine preferably.

[warty goblin]

I agree. And I'd add that it doesn't seem to me that old video games really had better plots or necessarily had better gameplay than current ones. When I've played remakes or downloads of old video games, I've usually had to remind myself that the plot was good for the time, even though it's not so good by today's standards. Examples include Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon (a remake of the first Fire Emblem game), Final Fantasy IV, Dragon Quest IV and V, and to a lesser extent even Chrono Trigger. And those are all RPGs, usually the most plot-heavy of video game genres.

I care less about plot in games than you do, but I've noticed the same thing. This isn't to say that I find the plot of old games bad necessarily, I'm pretty fond of Age of Wonder's storyline and consider the ending I got to be one of the more haunting I've ever recieved in a game. Yet I can't help but think that the same story could, with modern technology and presentation, be much more powerful.

And in terms of gameplay, I often find that even old games I heartily enjoy would be better with a bit of modern tuning up. Often this has to do with interface, because let's face it, a lot of old interfaces suck hard. So do many modern ones, but overall I'd rate the average annoyance factor of an interface now as significantly lower than it was a decade ago.


Plus, as you allude to with the Pacman thing, many of the old games often held to be among the best of their day and still held in high regard today had little or no plot. Take the old Mario, Mega Man, or Sonic games, for instance. Bowser has kidnapped Peach - save her! Dr. Wiley's Robots are on a rampage - fight them and him! Dr. Robotnik has stolen the chaos emeralds to use in a doomsday machine - fight him! Yeah, the "plots" pretty much just gave an excuse for the events of the game to be happening - a reason for Mario to jump around his stages, Mega Man to go shoot up robots, or Sonic to run around his stages. Nothing more.
Although to be fair, a lot of more modern games are basically the same thing. Having spent about an hour and a half tonight playing various utterly plotless titles, I can say the urge to shoot whatever shows up as red on the minimap is still alive and well, plot be damned.


Plus gameplay quality varied just as widely back then as it does now. Sure, I'll bet people can point to some modern game they dislike and compare its gameplay unfavorably one of their old favorites, but that doesn't mean that those are the norm of their generations. Just watch some online video game comedian/critics like the Angry Video Game Nerd or the Spoony One to see just how bad some old games can be - many of them, it seems to me, can't be compared favorably to anything that has been made since Superman 64. And it's not like gameplay these days is usually bad, or even inferior to the best of the old games, either. I like some of those old games plenty myself, particularly the original Mega Man series, but I sure wouldn't claim that most games today have inferior gameplay to those. If they did, frankly, I wouldn't play them.

Zevox

This is again a very good point. I'm not saying old games have bad gameplay- of the last three games I've purchased*, two are a decade old and I'm enjoying them massively. But before that I got Section 8, Red Faction: Guerilla and Trine, all of which are every bit as enjoyable. Well, maybe not Red Faction, but that's because I have to run it in horrible resolution to get a framerate I consider playable, not because it's a bad game.
.
*Sins of a Solar Empire: Entrenchment, Sacrifice and Aliens Vs. Predator Classic 2000.

[tribble]

could we do super mario galaxy?:smalleek::smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

VVVVVV, obviously.

Too much new school graphical gimmickry.

First on the forum to the joke!

[Zevox]

Although to be fair, a lot of more modern games are basically the same thing. Having spent about an hour and a half tonight playing various utterly plotless titles, I can say the urge to shoot whatever shows up as red on the minimap is still alive and well, plot be damned.
Oh, certainly, those are still around, albeit in smaller numbers than the old days. Mad World for the Wii, for instance. Just came out last year, and it has a meager plot that exists to give you a reason to run around brutally killing people and to supply humor, and pretty much nothing more. And really, some modern games that don't work like could really do with going for an approach like that (Sonic comes to mind immediately).

Zevox