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View Full Version : Elf tropes - what are they good for?



Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-11, 06:20 AM
I'm thinking about designing and redesigning races to be more distinct and different from the "humans with minor make up" inherent in many RPGs. This is for a homebrew project, but the question is more broadly RPG than that, so I'm posting here. I'm not after mechanics, just tropes.

Putting D&D aside for a moment, what do powers and abilities do you think of when you think of elves in fantasy?

So far, I've got: amazing sight amazing hearing smarts amazing agility amazing magical aptitude
What else can mythical or fictional elves do that sets them apart?

taltamir
2010-02-11, 06:23 AM
the problem is really, either they are actually amazing but require LA, thus they suck. or they are amazing without LA, making every other race suck (aka, broken)...
Or they are not amazing at all (current elves).

Cicciograna
2010-02-11, 06:24 AM
Amazing arrogance.

Comet
2010-02-11, 06:26 AM
So far, I've got: amazing sight amazing hearing amazing smarts amazing agility amazing magical aptitude
What else can mythical or fictional elves do that sets them apart?

Fixed it for you :smalltongue:

Aside from that, I think the slow aging is a pretty central element of most elven characters. The whole 'I was alive when your grandfather learned swordplay' thing makes them seem that much more alien, I think.

Also, I always think of elves as slightly ill-meaning folk. Not evil as such, but slightly isolationist and prejudiced against other species. I always try to make elves seem like they do not exactly belong into mankind's world.

taltamir
2010-02-11, 06:28 AM
you know... I am starting to think elf threads are as common or even more common then monk threads.

The problem with slow aging is that it means all elves are functionally retarded (look up the definition of the word retarded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retarded)) because it takes them hundreds of years to do what a human does in just a few years. Last I checked "amazing smarts" or "amazing talent" didn't mean "after 150 years of practice I can paint as well as a human who has been doing it for 5"

there is one viable option to making them amazing...
make them utterly amazing and not available as a player character.

Comet
2010-02-11, 06:33 AM
there is one viable option to making them amazing...
make them utterly amazing and not available as a player character.

This is very much an option, and one that I use relatively often. I want my elves to feel decisively non-human and having them as human-controllable characters just won't cut it.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 06:34 AM
Amazing arrogance.

This this this this

Also, sex with trees

Hopeless
2010-02-11, 06:37 AM
I'm thinking about designing and redesigning races to be more distinct and different from the "humans with minor make up" inherent in many RPGs. This is for a homebrew project, but the question is more broadly RPG than that, so I'm posting here. I'm not after mechanics, just tropes.

Putting D&D aside for a moment, what do powers and abilities do you think of when you think of elves in fantasy?

So far, I've got: amazing sight amazing hearing smarts amazing agility amazing magical aptitude
What else can mythical or fictional elves do that sets them apart?

Have you ever given dryads a thought?

Here we have what has been noted as a purely female race living in the forest dependent on the trees they're linked to and low and behold there's a race of beings who are also linked to forests and have an acute link to said terrain.

So what if dryads are actually elves and whilst those encountered by those outside the forest simply assume they're female because they're don't know better and what is really going on is that these elves can travel throughout the forest via any tree perhaps any forest with all of the intro of the 4e eladrin it strikes me what if the reason you can't find those elven cities is because they aren't anywhere within the world where anyone non-elven can find them?

Farlion
2010-02-11, 06:42 AM
As far as my expirience goes, the genuine elf is a better human. Everything humans do, an elf can do better. Since this implies some sort of rating, that elves are better than humans, any race design without level adjustment, would not fulfill the classical view of elves.

I would even go further and say: elves were designed to be an ideal humans should aim for. At least in all fantasy settings, elves are morally, mentally and physically (except maybe for pure strength) superior to humans.

Note: This interpretation does NOT include any description of elves taken from ancient folklore, there they have a totally different role.

Cheers,
Farlion

Totally Guy
2010-02-11, 06:48 AM
Most elves have grief.

They live for so long and see such tradgedy in their time that in each elf there is a seed of grief that is waiting to command thier soul. When elves see war, betrayal and the lies of the world they tend to let themselves waste away or decide to voyage to the West.

This is why elves do not tend to interfere with the world of man. Too much exposure to this world without the respite of their kinsmen would be to open the door to let the grief in.

Some elves can see how wrong this attitude is. The race has the capability to help but won't for their childish emotions. Alas these elves' drive to make the world right is destined outcast them. These elves feel spite. They'll do the darker deeds and make the cold choices, the ends always justify the means. They're nasty spiteful individuals that feel that the others betrayed them, when they needed it most. But they're not so far gone that they cannot see the greater good that they strive for.

Edit: The best I've seen this represented is using a "Morality/Humanity" style guage. After certain in game events the elf's Grief advances. That'll eventually see him waste away.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-11, 06:49 AM
the problem is really, either they are actually amazing but require LA, thus they suck. or they are amazing without LA, making every other race suck (aka, broken)...
Or they are not amazing at all (current elves).

Ahem: "Putting aside D&D for a moment..."

I really don't want to get stuck in the mechanics of how to execute any of these tropes mechanically in an RPG system. Let's just list them out, based on fiction and mythos.

(Maybe I should have gone to the Media Discussion forum...)

Gnaeus
2010-02-11, 07:14 AM
I would even go further and say: elves were designed to be an ideal humans should aim for. At least in all fantasy settings, elves are morally, mentally and physically (except maybe for pure strength) superior to humans.

The Tolkein elf (the stereotype behind which D&D and most modern fantasy was based) was if anything morally inferior to humans. Most of the worst things that happened in his world were a result of the poor behavior of elves (The theft of the silmarils, the kinslaying, the bad behavior of the various elven princes, etc.)

The elves would put this differently of course.

Eldariel
2010-02-11, 07:19 AM
The Tolkein elf (the stereotype behind which D&D and most modern fantasy was based) was if anything morally inferior to humans. Most of the worst things that happened in his world were a result of the poor behavior of elves (The theft of the silmarils, the kinslaying, the bad behavior of the various elven princes, etc.)

The elves would put this differently of course.

Considering how the humans behaved, I don't think that's really fair. If anything, elves are like humans in terms of morality.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-11, 07:23 AM
Lack of empathy

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-11, 07:29 AM
The problem with slow aging is that it means all elves are functionally retarded (look up the definition of the word retarded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retarded)) because it takes them hundreds of years to do what a human does in just a few years. Last I checked "amazing smarts" or "amazing talent" didn't mean "after 150 years of practice I can paint as well as a human who has been doing it for 5"

So they should be more skilled than humans at whatever they've put their mind to for the first 100 years of life?
Maybe this explains some of the fictional, non-RPG, tropes to do with the wise and skillful elf.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 07:31 AM
Don't mind taltamir - he's had it in for elves since the cookie incident.

(check his posting history in elf threads)

BobVosh
2010-02-11, 07:36 AM
Nails it pretty well. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter) Beware, it is a tvtropes link. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

I like my elves to be of the norse variety.

Gnaeus
2010-02-11, 07:39 AM
Considering how the humans behaved, I don't think that's really fair. If anything, elves are like humans in terms of morality.

I think that it is entirely fair. Especially if you take the actions of the "men" of Numenor, who were closer to what we would call half-elves (lifespans of hundreds of years, generally better in every physical and mental way than normal men because of their elven blood) out of the equation.

But in any event, clearly NOT morally superior.

Totally Guy
2010-02-11, 07:56 AM
Grief: Again the affairs of the common playground supersedes any glimmer of truth. This endless conflict of opinion is no place for an enlightened individual such as I. Maybe I'll voyage to the west to some other forum.

Spite:You fools! You do not see how I give you everything you ever ask for but through your own insular opinions and egos you fail to see it! Evidently I am outcast from your elitist clique. Some day you'll regret shunning my knowledge. I'll be lurking.

:smalltongue:

See, see? :smalltongue: That's how elves work.

Eldariel
2010-02-11, 07:57 AM
I think that it is entirely fair. Especially if you take the actions of the "men" of Numenor, who were closer to what we would call half-elves (lifespans of hundreds of years, generally better in every physical and mental way than normal men because of their elven blood) out of the equation.

But in any event, clearly NOT morally superior.

If you consider all the Humans of Middle-Earth too, the corsairs, the Haradrim, etc. no I don't see Humans being in any way more moral than Elves. Hell, The Betrayal was organized by Humans. Elves may be no saints, but neither is anyone else in that particular world, much like with any decent work of fiction.

Zom B
2010-02-11, 07:58 AM
Elf tropes - what are they good for?

Absolutely nothin'. Say it again, y'all!

Anyways, back to topic: amazing grace. No, not the song, they just are very graceful, which is different from agility. Legolas walked on top of the snow, and elves in general are renowned for being good at leaving no signs of their passage such as tracks. This also covers their prediliction for stealth.

Also, elves are known for being technologically superior, in the low-tech sort-of way. Humans have bread? Elves have lembas, which fills you and is delicious (man has yet to invent the cinnamon roll at this point, I guess). Men have cloaks, well elves' cloaks let you blend in with the landscape because they're made of secret special cloth. Also, you get a free silver pin with every cloak purchase.

Elves are known for being amazingly magical. They seem to crank out more magic weapons and trinkets per capita than any other race, and have a natural bent towards magic. Not in the wizard sense, though. As the elf in the (godawful, regretful) Dungeons and Dragons movie said in his best Jeeves-the-Butler voice, "You use magic. We are PAH-rt of it."

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 07:58 AM
The grief and negativity tend to only happen when they live among more mortal races. Left with each other they can frolick for centuries.

Also, this is another reason I dislike them. You don't see Elan and Warforged getting all emo and whiny, and they can live Elves under the table.


Elves are known for being amazingly magical. They seem to crank out more magic weapons and trinkets per capita than any other race, and have a natural bent towards magic. Not in the wizard sense, though. As the elf in the (godawful, regretful) Dungeons and Dragons movie said in his best Jeeves-the-Butler voice, "You use magic. We are PAH-rt of it."

In the wizard sense too, actually (Grey/Sun Elven Generalist.)

Zom B
2010-02-11, 08:07 AM
I say that because traditionally wizards are tower-bound recluses that have knowledge of the workings of the universe so as to manipulate them. Elves live frolicking through the woodlands and have the natural talent for magic. True, in the D&D world, Elves have a tendency towards wizard, but traditionally I'd say they're more of sorcerers.

Gnaeus
2010-02-11, 08:15 AM
If you consider all the Humans of Middle-Earth too, the corsairs, the Haradrim, etc. no I don't see Humans being in any way more moral than Elves. Hell, The Betrayal was organized by Humans. Elves may be no saints, but neither is anyone else in that particular world, much like with any decent work of fiction.

The Corsairs were survivors of fallen Numenor. So half elven, at least in their leadership.

I'm not sure which betrayal you are talking about. There are quite a number in the cosmology, most committed by elves.

And the simple fact is that most of the great evils in Tolkeins world sprung from the immoral acts of the elves. Certainly the Duns and the Harad weren't good, but they were A. mostly depicted as savages and B. not very effective.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 08:16 AM
Their natural talent, however, comes from an innate understanding rather than emotional control.

Races of the Wild has a couple of passages on the subject.


Elves employ arcane magic in all its forms, though wizardry is the most common path to magical mastery. Sorcerers are considered talented but amateurish and perhaps a bit lazy because their selection of spells is so limited.


Most elf arcane spellcasters are wizards. Despite the innately chaotic nature of most elves, the study and discipline required to employ wizardry appeal to their sense of nearlimitless time and deep personal focus. Those who choose this path apply themselves zealously to learning the secrets of the art. Since they have much more time to perfect their skills than humans do, elves tend to achieve a high degree of proficiency with wizardry even if they become distracted by other business for a time. Colleges of magic exist in almost every elf city of any size, and most elf wizards avail themselves of the resources available at such schools. Many, however, come to find such institutions limiting, so they search out
solitary wizards with whom to expand their training and eventually take up research on their own.


Elf spellcasters display no particular preference for any one school of magic, but practitioners of necromancy are somewhat rare because elves tend toward good alignments. Enchantment comes almost naturally to elves, many of whom can beguile other creatures with no magic at all, simply by virtue of their personal appeal and pleasant nature. Diviners and conjurers are greatly valued in elf communities for their abilities to warn of coming danger and to create useful items and effects, respectively. Evokers are treated with somewhat less awe by elves than by other races because elves are accustomed to magical effects and tend to value utility and beauty more than destructive power.

bosssmiley
2010-02-11, 08:40 AM
I'm thinking about designing and redesigning races to be more distinct and different from the "humans with minor make up" inherent in many RPGs. This is for a homebrew project, but the question is more broadly RPG than that, so I'm posting here. I'm not after mechanics, just tropes.

Putting D&D aside for a moment, what do powers and abilities do you think of when you think of elves in fantasy?

So far, I've got: amazing sight amazing hearing (amazing) smarts amazing agility amazing magical aptitude
What else can mythical or fictional elves do that sets them apart?

You missed the big one: immortality. Everything else interesting about Elves as a culture comes from their immensely long lifespans and the strange, inhuman perspective this gives them on life. Remember the old folk tales of people spending a night partying with the elves and a century having passed back home? Yeah.


The Tolkein elf (the stereotype behind which D&D and most modern fantasy was based) was if anything morally inferior to humans. Most of the worst things that happened in his world were a result of the poor behavior of elves (The theft of the silmarils, the kinslaying, the bad behavior of the various elven princes, etc.)

The elves would put this differently of course.

Tolker's Elves are (at their best) humans writ large (http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=10749). Feanor's defining trait isn't "he's an Elf"; it's the overweeing, all-consuming pride (ditto Ineluki the Storm King in the Tadd Williams Tolkien homage MS&T). The fact that Fingon has pointy ears is almost entirely incidental to his being a monumental bad-ass hero.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 08:43 AM
You missed the big one: immortality.

Long-lived != immortal

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 08:44 AM
Long-lived != immortal

Would "longer than anybody has an inclination to record" be better?
When I think "elf", I do indeed think biologically immortal.

frogspawner
2010-02-11, 08:46 AM
Kidnapping (especially baby-stealing), plus being scary - and soulless.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 08:49 AM
Would "longer than anybody has an inclination to record" be better?
When I think "elf", I do indeed think biologically immortal.

What do you mean? They themselves do the "recording."

And they are no strangers to death - there's nothing wrong with being able to die.


Though elves live extremely long lives compared with most other humanoids, they are not immortal. They do not court death and indeed try to avoid encountering it prematurely, but they do not especially fear the end. Rather, they accept death as a natural part of the life cycle. Their deep respect for nature ensures that most do not pursue unnatural means of preserving life (such as becoming a lich) when their bodies begin to fail.

Totally Guy
2010-02-11, 08:54 AM
I thought it was immortality.

Elves dying of old age is really just an elf wasting away by the weight of their sadness in their hearts. By the time an elf has got to a certain age they will have seen so much sadness that they can no longer be that young optimistic frolicker that always saw the best in people.

I think of it as an allegory for old people losing their "get up and go" and only then deteriorating.

And violence can kill them.
And seemingly ships to the West too, but I don't know how that's meant to be interpreted.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-11, 08:54 AM
Let's not labour under the illusion that any one idea of 'elf' is factually correct - aside from the fictional nature of the sunject, we're talking about the ideas here, not the in-game mechanics, or setting specific definitions of 'elf'.

If there is a trope that elves are immortal, that does not preclude that there is also a trope that they are merely long-lived.

Totally Guy
2010-02-11, 08:56 AM
Yeah, we've got to accept there are many canons.

Elves don't use cannons do they?

Amiel
2010-02-11, 08:57 AM
Amazing Beauty
Amazingly Magical
Amazing Pointy Eyes
Amazing No Facial Hair
Amazing Warriors
Amazingly Better Than You


Actually, the only thing, elves, being a superior (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperiorSpecies) species (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard), lack is humility.

Zom B
2010-02-11, 08:57 AM
Races of the Wild says...

I do wish you'd stop quoting a D&D sourcebook to prove wrong all of the traditional notions of elves. Especially when the OP said that this thread is not about D&D elves.

In traditional folklore, elves were indeed seen as immortal components of the world. Wikipedia has a very good article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf) on the subject.

Eldan
2010-02-11, 09:05 AM
Let's see... in norse legends, the borders between elves, especially dark elves, and dwarves could be quite a bit fluid. So you could have subterranean mastercrafter elves.

On the other hand, in other legends, the borders between elves and fey were just as undefined. So they can be child-stealing, soulless, immortals repelled by iron.

MickJay
2010-02-11, 09:21 AM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/12/2/

last panel

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 09:38 AM
I do wish you'd stop quoting a D&D sourcebook to prove wrong all of the traditional notions of elves. Especially when the OP said that this thread is not about D&D elves.

Races of the Wild, like every other D&D sourcebook, was based on these same traditional notions you're referring to.

My intention wasn't to "prove anyone wrong," merely to make the point that all natural living things die. If it can't die, it can't be natural either.

Harperfan7
2010-02-11, 09:43 AM
Elves are a race of (generally) naturally chaotic good people with low populations who live for a long time. The only thing elves has trouble with in life is surviving other races/monsters.

Basically, elves are ideal (but not perfect) humans. They are what humans should shoot for (in a magical world), but they exist too early, in the same way that a renaissance thinker would exist too early in the stone age.

At the risk of talking politics, they are a libertarians wet dream. They have the perfect society for a race no more inherently powerful than humans.

Zom B
2010-02-11, 09:51 AM
Races of the Wild is a 3rd ed sourcebook, and as such drastically moves away from traditional mythology. I mean, in 2nd ed elves could not be raised from the dead because they had no souls, and gnomes were small creatures with wood-colored skin and other hints of their earthy connections, both traits corresponding with their mythological history.

The statement that all natural things die is an observation of our real world. Humans, trees, bunnies, all these things die and we know this as fact because we have observed them die. But humans throughout history have created mythological creatures that didn't. Maybe they did this because they thought it would be cool if there were secretive eternal spirits that existed solely to do things like tie your shoes together at night or misplace your hat. Maybe people wanted to believe that it wasn't true that everything must die, and that believing in the fairies meant that they might take you to their magic mushroom kingdom and you can, too, live forever.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 09:56 AM
hey are what humans should shoot for (in a magical world), but they exist too early, in the same way that a renaissance thinker would exist too early in the stone age.

See, I disagree with this. Philosophically, their mantra is "co-exist" - they accept the world for what it is, and do their best to live in harmony with everything.

But Dwarves dislike them for this very reason. They are more focused on living in the world as it stands, than shaping it and improving it. Tradition and revelry take precedence over progress. Worse, when they do innovate, it rarely lasts - few inventions hold their attention long before they are off to the next big thing.

They are artistic and creative, yet insubstantial and flighty. They have a great deal of energy and drive, but are as apt to apply it toward trivial pursuits as lofty ones.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-11, 10:10 AM
Hey, all tropes are valid, even D&D ones. I just mentioned that I'm not looking for D&D canon to avoid the stuff we can just look up in the PHB.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 10:13 AM
Races of the Wild is a 3rd ed sourcebook, and as such drastically moves away from traditional mythology. I mean, in 2nd ed elves could not be raised from the dead because they had no souls, and gnomes were small creatures with wood-colored skin and other hints of their earthy connections, both traits corresponding with their mythological history.

I'm aware that 3e did abandon some of the more outlandish fluff in favor of game balance... but those books were still written by authors that are likely more versed in ancient cultures and mythology than you or I will ever be.


The statement that all natural things die is an observation of our real world. Humans, trees, bunnies, all these things die and we know this as fact because we have observed them die. But humans throughout history have created mythological creatures that didn't. Maybe they did this because they thought it would be cool if there were secretive eternal spirits that existed solely to do things like tie your shoes together at night or misplace your hat. Maybe people wanted to believe that it wasn't true that everything must die, and that believing in the fairies meant that they might take you to their magic mushroom kingdom and you can, too, live forever.

I'm also aware that such creatures existed (or were believed to exist) - but again, that doesn't make them natural.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 10:16 AM
but those books were still written by authors that are likely more versed in ancient cultures and mythology than you or I will ever be.
1) Don't underestimate some of the nerds here. :P
2) Even if the authors were so knowledgeable about mythology, there's no guarantee that they applied that knowledge. A better source for mythological tropes is the source material.


but again, that doesn't make them natural.

They're supernatural. So?

elonin
2010-02-11, 10:20 AM
My first thought when I read the subject line was "food for other troops".
As written elves don't live up to the myths that they spring from and don't really even live up to the elf in the gauntlet game. Personally the fey subtype gives more elf flavor to me than the stock elf. Killoren are near to that idea also. There are other ways to give races awesome without making them so unbalanced that LA is needed, just give disadvantages.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-11, 10:34 AM
My first thought when I read the subject line was "food for other troops".
As written elves don't live up to the myths that they spring from and don't really even live up to the elf in the gauntlet game. Personally the fey subtype gives more elf flavor to me than the stock elf. Killoren are near to that idea also. There are other ways to give races awesome without making them so unbalanced that LA is needed, just give disadvantages.

As written in D&D, which is not what we're discussing here.

What do you think elves should be like? Forget D&D for a moment. What are the tropes that elves should follow?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 10:37 AM
Wait, this discusses which tropes should be followed? I thought it was just about which tropes do exist.

IMO, elves should be more fey-like. Their thoughts and priorities are organized differently. They're attentive to nature, but not really - as immortals, they are unnatural in several ways. Also, they make cool stuff.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 10:42 AM
1) Don't underestimate some of the nerds here. :P

When they show me what they've written and their credentials, I'll be glad to give them credit.


2) Even if the authors were so knowledgeable about mythology, there's no guarantee that they applied that knowledge. A better source for mythological tropes is the source material.

It's obvious that they applied at least some of it, or else D&D elves would be completely unrelated to their traditional origins. No living in forests, no affinity for magic etc.


They're supernatural. So?

So I didn't refer to them as such when I was talking about them being able to die.


Wait, this discusses which tropes should be followed? I thought it was just about which tropes do exist.

IMO, elves should be more fey-like. Their thoughts and priorities are organized differently. They're attentive to nature, but not really - as immortals, they are unnatural in several ways. Also, they make cool stuff.

I think 4e addressed this via Eladrin, myself - whose flavor I very much enjoy.

elonin
2010-02-11, 10:50 AM
Like the idea of elven thoughts being a bit alien. They should also be dexterous and rare. If not rare then they should be like tolkien elves and "blend in" very well.

Totally Guy
2010-02-11, 01:03 PM
What do you think elves should be like?

Elves to me:

-They do not feel the chill of winter and the full heat of summer in a way that bothers them.
-Fair and statuesque.
-Potentially can sing to tell tales and improve their work. They could make food taste a little better simply by singing to pass the time as they prepare it.
-Effectively immortal, they grow old but don't feel old unless...
-Feel the effects of grief on their hearts. The more sadness they see the more distant they become. After seeing for too long an elf will waste away due to his grief and die, effectively like dying from old age. But not. (Or boat to West (whatever the interpretation of that ending is supposed to be :smalltongue:).)
-They can see pretty well, by starlight etc.

The grief one has further implications such as explaining why they are so insular and aloof. They stay put so that they don't discover how bad things in the world are. That would shorten their effectively immortal otherwise life span.

Jayabalard
2010-02-11, 01:18 PM
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
---Terry Pratchett - Lords and Ladies

Gnorman
2010-02-11, 01:31 PM
Nothing. Kill 'em all and let Corellon sort 'em out.

Kris Strife
2010-02-11, 01:43 PM
Elves cause cancer.

Umael
2010-02-11, 02:11 PM
Elves are kinda like dragons - individually, better than humans, but as a race, they lack the humans' influence over the world.

Dragons and elves both live for a really, really, really long time. Humans might make it to a century. Might. It's iffy. So they have all these things they have to accomplish, want to accomplish, before they die. So they live fast and they die fast.

Dragons tend to not go out in the world a lot. Sitting on a pile of treasure, asleep? Yep, that's dragons for you. Elves, as a nation, are pretty much the same way. They live in their beloved woods (unless you want to have desert elves or mountain elves or whatnot) and don't go out into the world much.

I could draw a few more parallels, but let me answer this question: why am I bringing dragons into this?

Because dragons and elves are both these fantasical creatures who are often idealized in culture, but most settings do not have them dominant the humans. Humans and their influence are everywhere. Dragons tend not to rule the world. Elves tend not to rule the world.

Yet, when you look at either of them, they come across as being "better" than humans. Certainly dragons do - bigger, stronger, smarter, able to breathe fire. Bard only killed Smaug because a little bird told him the dragon's weak spot, and even so, the foul wyrm took out the entire Lake Town.

Elves are not given the same exasgerated treatment, but usually, in whatever culture, an elf will out-perform a human.

And that is to be expected.

Let's set aside all the magic and grace and beauty that just comes naturally to them - elves are long-lived. They have a lot of experience. Some settings gimp the elves' ability to learn, which is plausible, but imagine that elves did have a few extra hundred years to learn swordplay. This means that your average elf IS going to be better with the sword than your average human.

But even the best swordsman in the world isn't as much good after getting three feet of steel in his chest. Sure, maybe the average elf can skewer the best human swordsman in the world, but can he take out eight humans at once? Perhaps, perhaps not. Mirumoto Mushashi (sp?) was the legendary Japanese master of the katana - he took out eight attackers at once.

In melee.

Could he have dodged eight archers? What if the terrain had been more unforgiving?

Furthermore, there is a difference between fighting individually and fighting en masse. In mass battle, you don't know who might be attacking you or who is going to be attacking you. Even the best can be taken down by a stray arrow.

So if an army of humans and an army of elves attack each other, the odds might well favor the elves. But at what cost? How many elves are going to die?

Elves live a long time, and part of the reason they live a long time is that they have a balance with nature. They tend not to die, but they also tend not to have as many born to them. Humans are the reverse - quick to die, quick to live.

In an extended campaign, attrition is going to favor the humans. They can replace their numbers. Elves cannot.

And the elves know it.

So they know they cannot get involved in any extended conflict with humans. They may not shun conflict when necessary, but they know, for their own good, that they cannot encourage it.

This is a major psychological point of the elven racial profile (at least, in my opinion).

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 02:20 PM
Nothing. Kill 'em all and let Corellon sort 'em out.

+4. Nothing is more irritating to me than someone making Elves the only special race in their game.

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 02:22 PM
+4. Nothing is more irritating to me than someone making Elves the only special race in their game.

You just don't like them because they suck at Incarnum. :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 02:24 PM
You just don't like them because they suck at Incarnum. :smalltongue:

Reason #1. The next 50 or so involve a previous DM.

Bibliomancer
2010-02-11, 04:44 PM
Elves are kinda like dragons - individually, better than humans, but as a race, they lack the humans' influence over the world.

But how do you know either are trying? Elves can scry. Who do you think is preventing evil plans to take over the world from starting until a band of plucky heroes is in position to stop them?


Dragons and elves both live for a really, really, really long time. Humans might make it to a century. Might. It's iffy. So they have all these things they have to accomplish, want to accomplish, before they die. So they live fast and they die fast.

Interesting fact: in DnD 3.5, it is impossible for an unmodified human to live past his or her 110th year, and average age is 9a for those not killed by dragons etc. (few of these, especially when disease is added).


Dragons tend to not go out in the world a lot. Sitting on a pile of treasure, asleep? Yep, that's dragons for you. Elves, as a nation, are pretty much the same way. They live in their beloved woods (unless you want to have desert elves or mountain elves or whatnot) and don't go out into the world much.

This is probably because they forest is as close to optimal as you can get without dying.


Because dragons and elves are both these fantasical creatures who are often idealized in culture, but most settings do not have them dominant the humans. Humans and their influence are everywhere. Dragons tend not to rule the world. Elves tend not to rule the world.

That's standard DnD. In Eberron, Dragons rule the world but don't bother telling people most of the time, and elves have an organized divine force that could lay waste to human civilization if they felt like using it.


Yet, when you look at either of them, they come across as being "better" than humans. Certainly dragons do - bigger, stronger, smarter, able to breathe fire. Bard only killed Smaug because a little bird told him the dragon's weak spot, and even so, the foul wyrm took out the entire Lake Town.

Elves are not given the same exasgerated treatment, but usually, in whatever culture, an elf will out-perform a human.

And that is to be expected.

Yes, yes it is (especially since most of them tend to have a level or two in wizard and many are high levels).


Let's set aside all the magic and grace and beauty that just comes naturally to them - elves are long-lived. They have a lot of experience. Some settings gimp the elves' ability to learn, which is plausible, but imagine that elves did have a few extra hundred years to learn swordplay. This means that your average elf IS going to be better with the sword than your average human.

But even the best swordsman in the world isn't as much good after getting three feet of steel in his chest. Sure, maybe the average elf can skewer the best human swordsman in the world, but can he take out eight humans at once? Perhaps, perhaps not. Mirumoto Mushashi (sp?) was the legendary Japanese master of the katana - he took out eight attackers at once.

In melee.

Could he have dodged eight archers? What if the terrain had been more unforgiving?

Heh. First: in DnD, a 10th level swordsman with standard Wealth by Level (and elves tend to have an excess of magic items) can defeat a hundred first level warriors, easily.

Second, elves have magic, and a fireball can kill dozens of low level troops.

Third, elves are masters of hit and run warfare (especially Valenar elves in Eberron). They can easily cut a larger force to pieces before it gets halfway through their forest unless it uses a shield wall, and then enter fireball.

Fourth, its the elves who are legendary archers, not the humans. The humans will take casualties charging an elven position, which will be an illusion, and then since they're all bunched up, enter fireball.


Furthermore, there is a difference between fighting individually and fighting en masse. In mass battle, you don't know who might be attacking you or who is going to be attacking you. Even the best can be taken down by a stray arrow.

So if an army of humans and an army of elves attack each other, the odds might well favor the elves. But at what cost? How many elves are going to die?

Elves live a long time, and part of the reason they live a long time is that they have a balance with nature. They tend not to die, but they also tend not to have as many born to them. Humans are the reverse - quick to die, quick to live.

I beg to differ (see above). Humans can't defeat elves without a massed army, and that army will either a) be destroyed by the evocation edge of the elves b) be shot to pieces before it can enter the forest c) not find the elves in the first place or d) all of the above. If there is attrition, it would be on order of one elf for a hundred or a thousand humans in a major war, and they can match that replacement rate.


In an extended campaign, attrition is going to favor the humans. They can replace their numbers. Elves cannot.

And the elves know it.

So they know they cannot get involved in any extended conflict with humans. They may not shun conflict when necessary, but they know, for their own good, that they cannot encourage it.

This is a major psychological point of the elven racial profile (at least, in my opinion).

Not so. If this were the case, the orcs would have overrun the elves eons ago. Orcs reproduce faster than humans. It would be more challenging to fight civilized humans, but elves are a 20th century army (hit and run tactics, air support, technology/magic) and humans are an 18th century army (mass numbers, some technology/magic, straightforward tactics).

Sure, the humans would learn to adapt, but the elves have had centuries to learn their home terrain, and so can gradually destroy human society from within with missions launched from their impregnable forest redoubts.

The key point is they don't want to. The humans are interesting, innovative, and fun mating partners (see half-elves). Also, the elves would take notable, but not crippling causalities in a war. They don't want empires because they're chaotic, and so don't bother attacking neutral human allies.

Gnaeus
2010-02-11, 04:56 PM
Not so. If this were the case, the orcs would have overrun the elves eons ago. Orcs reproduce faster than humans.

You are talking about eberron, which is hardly a good example of fantasy archetypes (since it is an advanced, magic replacing technology world).

In Tolkein for example, the orcs did overrun the elves. Often. The great elven kingdoms were crushed in battle by the fast breeding orcs, leaving only those elven communities that could hide.

For another good example of this archetype, look at Tad Williams' Green Angel Tower.

In Birthright, to cite a D&D example, both the humans AND the goblins overran the elves, with a similar outcome. A few small communities of mostly xenophobic elves looking back on the days when they ruled the world.

Umael
2010-02-12, 01:30 AM
*sigh*

Bibliomancer - we're talking tropes, not DnD. As in, my somewhat rambling train of thought was to give an idea of what makes elves "elves", regardless of what game system.

Not saying that anything of what you said is inaccurate, or is even unimportant, just that I was trying to present a general oversight to one particular notion.

For the record, as a joke, I made three elven races; the Tolkiens, the Pinis, and the Anime. While recognizable as elves, none of them were anything like the other two.

Reluctance
2010-02-12, 02:17 AM
This whole topic covers why a blanket elf race has problems. Too much of a mish-mash of various mythologies with a heavy dollop of Mary Sueism thrown in. I'd be much happier with various breeds of fae.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-12, 02:25 AM
My intent for starting this thread was to find out what people thought was good -and bad- about elves as a concept, and distil that into a homebrew at some point.
I've got plenty of fuel here. Thanks to everyone!

Hallavast
2010-02-12, 02:31 AM
I'm not after mechanics, just tropes.

Putting D&D aside for a moment, what do powers and abilities do you think of when you think of elves in fantasy?

So far, I've got: amazing sight amazing hearing smarts amazing agility amazing magical aptitude
What else can mythical or fictional elves do that sets them apart?

Emphasis mine.

The bolded parts seem to contradict each other. Please make up your mind. If you want nonmechanical tropes for a typical Tolkienese elf, please consider:

- Racial Pride/arrogance
- Love of nature/protective of homeland
- "Fair Folk"
- Cultural Swordsmanship/Archery
- Supposedly "Good" alignment
- herbalism/woodlore

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-12, 02:49 AM
The bolded parts seem to contradict each other. Please make up your mind.
I don't think they do, and no-one else in the thread seemed to have any issue - but I'm happy to clarify.

I don't want to talk about "+4 to spot" or "casts cantrips at will" or any other game mechanic. I just wanted to know what features you think an elf should have, based on your experience of them in myth and fiction.

Hallavast
2010-02-12, 02:59 AM
I don't think they do, and no-one else in the thread seemed to have any issue - but I'm happy to clarify.

I don't want to talk about "+4 to spot" or "casts cantrips at will" or any other game mechanic. I just wanted to know what features you think an elf should have, based on your experience of them in myth and fiction.

Just checking. When you say "powers and abilities", it implies that the conversation will be limited to such (and none of the suggestions that came to my mind when i thought "elf" seemed to match up with this). But now I understand. :smallsmile:

Totally Guy
2010-02-12, 03:38 AM
What about some kind of veil of light around their faces and heads? It's like they have some sort special effects crew keeping their faces bright and catching the light just right.

Eldan
2010-02-12, 03:44 AM
Well, "glamour" seems to be common, at least in pop culture (I'm not sure about legends here). Gaiman's Sandman, Pratchett's Lords and Ladies, various mentions of fey everywhere: elves or fey project a kind of field which makes them seem more attractive, graceful and flat-out superiour than they are.

Gnaeus
2010-02-12, 08:47 AM
If you want nonmechanical tropes for a typical Tolkienese elf, please consider:
- Supposedly "Good" alignment

Leaving aside Tolkein, which is packed with evil or amoral acts of elves...

There are a wide variety of sources that view elves as evil, or so alien and careless of human well-being that they may as well be evil from the human perspective. A quick list of cites might include Jim Butcher (Harry Dresden series), Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies), Tad Williams (Green Angel Tower), Simon R. Green (Edwin Drood series), Kim Harrison (Rachel Morgan series), and many ancient myths (Tam Lin and True Thomas just to name 2).

I don't know which view is a majority, but there is certainly a lot of ground to draw evil elves from.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 08:57 AM
Dragonlance also had their Elves slide from Good to pure amoral Law, leading up to the Cataclysm.

The Silvanesti in particular were guilty of this.

Heliomance
2010-02-12, 08:59 AM
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
---Terry Pratchett - Lords and Ladies

Bah, freaking ninja-elves.

paddyfool
2010-02-12, 09:33 AM
Warning: next bit relates to elves in D&D

My standard work-around for "elves being special" - give their societies a very different typical size and level distribution, because with more years, and equivalent smarts, even a fairly feckless individual is going to . So human kingdom X has 1,000,000 people, of whom 900,000 are 1st level, 90,000 are 2nd level, 9,000 3rd level, 500 4th, 250 5th, 100 6th, 50 7th, 25 8th, 10 9th, and the remaining 15 are scattered over higher levels. But elven kingdom Y, with 10,000 people, has 5,000 at 1st level; 2500 2nd; 1250 3rd; 500 4th; 250 5th; 200 6th; 100 7th, 75 8th, 50 9th, and the remaining 75 are scattered over higher levels. Add to that a higher ratio of individuals with PC classes vs NPC (say, 1/10 rather than 1/20), and you've suddenly got a very different situation.

My explanation for the small numbers? These elves grow up at a similar rate to normal humans, and elven women have a simlar fertile window to human women. So after you're 40-50, bang, no more kids for you unless you're a dirty-old-man elf, or outside of unnatural rites etc. The rest of the hundreds of years of existence is up to you... to waste away on idle pastimes, learn ways of power, or whatever else you feel like. Young elves would be very stigmatised by their society if they were adventurers, because of taking needless risks when they should be raising children etc. So most might not start adventuring, or even be able to get another elf to train them in earnest outside of time-of-war, until they're at least 50. Making for a very different body of adventurers with different priorities, perhaps.

And if you live a long time, the following will be important to you:
- Quality of life. Hence elven cultures being big on arts, maintaining natural beauty around them, etc.
- Peace & stability. Why risk hundreds of years of your life and those of your people to wage wars for temporary benefit, unless directly threatened etc.? Which is not to say that security isn't going to be important either... but any military are likely to be designed primarily with defence, rather than conquest, in mind.
- Your good name. Hundreds of years is far too long to live in shame etc; so maintaining a reputation for probity, honesty, compassion etc. is going to be important too.

Gnaeus
2010-02-12, 10:23 AM
Warning: next bit relates to elves in D&D

My standard work-around for "elves being special" - give their societies a very different typical size and level distribution, because with more years, and equivalent smarts, even a fairly feckless individual is going to . But elven kingdom Y, with 10,000 people, has 5,000 at 1st level; 2500 2nd; 1250 3rd; 500 4th; 250 5th; 200 6th; 100 7th, 75 8th, 50 9th, and the remaining 75 are scattered over higher levels. Add to that a higher ratio of individuals with PC classes vs NPC (say, 1/10 rather than 1/20), and you've suddenly got a very different situation.


Warning: next bit relates to elves in D&D

I usually say that the "typical" adult elf has all 3 levels of the elf paragon class, so kingdom Y might have 100 at 1st and 2nd (young adults or otherwise substandard elves), 9000 at 3rd level, 800 at 4th, 90 at 5th, 10 others. So virtually every elf is better than 3 human warriors in battle (especially when masterwork equipment and a couple of scrolls are factored in), is a better fighter than a (typical, 1st level) human fighter and a better wizard than a (typical, 1st level) human wizard, but truly exceptional elves are rare.

Twilight Jack
2010-02-12, 01:10 PM
Warning: next bit relates to elves in D&D

There are no elf commoners, at least not in typical elven communities. All non-adventuring-class elves are experts, aristocrats, adepts, or (if your campaign world allows them) magewrights.

Commoner is a class suitable only for short-lived races in high population densities, wherein life is nasty, brutish, and short. Elves live in small communities in which food, safety, and free time are plentiful. As such, each individual elf is afforded a surfeit of time in which to pursue whatever fields of study take his fancy. As such, all elves know too many things about too many subjects to ever be commoners.

By the way, that means that elf warriors are also pretty rare. If an elf is going to dedicate enough of his life to swordplay or archery to forego any study of magic or skillmonkery, then he's going to wind up as a fighter or ranger. The emergency defense force of an elven community is going to be made up primarily of experts with lots of ranks in stealth, movement, and awareness skills, backed by specialist forces who've got PC classes.

On the other hand, the ease and pace of their lives mean that elves don't necessarily advance in level very often. If experience is based upon challenge, then elves just don't gain very much experience relative to humans over the course of their lives, unless they take up adventuring. In a typical, peaceful elven community, most elves encounter very little difficulty on a yearly basis. The ratio of high level elves to lower level is only slightly higher than the ratio of high level characters in an equivalent human community (their long lives do count for something, after all, and their communities are much smaller).

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 01:31 PM
This is becoming memetic.


My favorite argument against elves is the Starting Ages for the classes. In the same time it takes a Human to become a 1st level Expert, the Elf is physically the same age, but in their society the Elf is only a child. His apprenticeship is going to last several more decades. Considering it only takes 2 months to hit 20th level, that Human is either going to be dead from encounters, or Epic. This actually came up IC in a Warhammer campaign, so it isn't limited to DnD.

dspeyer
2010-02-12, 02:52 PM
Elves turn living into an art form.

An elf may take fifty years to learn to walk but then does it perfectly. The most graceful human dancers can barely match an elf walking from place to place. This is because the most devoted human dancers have less than fifty years to dedicate to their art before their knees start to go.

Speaking of dance, elvish folk dances take centuries to learn. In order to welcome outsider guests, the elves have devised dances where a small number of dancers are expected to get it wrong, but everyone else improvises around them. This skill takes even longer to learn.

No elf ever does a sloppy job of anything. The elvish equivalent of McDonalds serves meals in museum-quality porcelain.

Getting back to RPGs, this addresses the balance issue. Sure the elvish wizard is 250 years old, but he's spent most of that learning how to be part of elvish society, and no more time on magic than a 25 year old human.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 04:43 PM
Elves turn living into an art form.

An elf may take fifty years to learn to walk but then does it perfectly. The most graceful human dancers can barely match an elf walking from place to place. This is because the most devoted human dancers have less than fifty years to dedicate to their art before their knees start to go.

Speaking of dance, elvish folk dances take centuries to learn. In order to welcome outsider guests, the elves have devised dances where a small number of dancers are expected to get it wrong, but everyone else improvises around them. This skill takes even longer to learn.

No elf ever does a sloppy job of anything. The elvish equivalent of McDonalds serves meals in museum-quality porcelain.

Getting back to RPGs, this addresses the balance issue. Sure the elvish wizard is 250 years old, but he's spent most of that learning how to be part of elvish society, and no more time on magic than a 25 year old human.

Sounds like your average Gary/Mary. Question: If the elf knows they are going to be traveling around the world, why bother learning their own culture if people are just going to view the elf as a Homocidal Kleptomaniac Nomad?

Jayabalard
2010-02-12, 05:29 PM
Question: If the elf knows they are going to be traveling around the world, why bother learning their own culture if people are just going to view the elf as a Homocidal Kleptomaniac Nomad?Why would they know that they are going to be traveling around the world?

Even if they did, why wouldn't they bother learning their own culture? It's not like knowing they were going to be traveling means that they won't be doing anything else in their entire life. In many (most?) cases, it should be kind of assumed that the character is going to be still looking for love, family, etc among the elves at some point, and if he's going to live a couple of hundred years (at least) after retiring he's going to want to know how to behave.

Why would people view the elf as a Homocidal Kleptomaniac Nomad? That sounds like you're restricting yourself to an extremely narrow band of character types.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 05:35 PM
Why would people view the elf as a Homocidal Kleptomaniac Nomad? That sounds like you're restricting yourself to an extremely narrow band of character types.

Rule #1 of being an adventurer: Kill stuff, take it's loot. Homicide? Check. Kleptomania? Check. Nomad? Check. Twice if Psions are involved.

Shardan
2010-02-12, 05:52 PM
There are really three possibilities with elves to make them more distinct

1) forest elf. one with nature, primitive in tech, advanced in the ways of hunting, herbalism, etc. Probably bonuses to tracking, archery, perception, dexterity

2) High elf. magical advanced race. long lived, contemplative, removed from the day-to-day woes of the world because they see things in thousand year spans, not the short terms that humans see. bonuses to arcane magics and intelligence

3) Fey elf. smaller than humans (almost halfling size) spry, bouncy, inately magical pranksters. (almost a mix of elf, halfling, and gnome) inate cantrips, weakness to cold iron

Bibliomancer
2010-02-12, 06:09 PM
Warning: following relates to elves in DnD


Yes, under the rules it only takes 2 months to go from 1st to 20th level, but that's only for PCs. NPC adventurers end up splattered on the end of a club somewhere in that process if they don't have any downtime. As a result, elves tend to have more high level characters than other races as a proportion of their society, since they have the time to add up low-level encounters. In elven society, I tend to assume that 1/3 of the population (approaching 1/2 in some cases) have a level in wizard and the rest are not commoners, in general.

I tend to agree with the view that elves take a hundred years to become adventurers because they are spending the rest of that time developing pose and learning elven culture. That said, I often play (or try to play) elves that are barely over the physical adulthood range (25), especially since ROTW mentioned elves of this age can be surprisingly mature. This is certainly appropriate for hyper-intelligent wizard characters. Right now I'm playing a gray elf wizard, age 35, who got kicked out of the elven island because his full sibling was born a changeling (long story). As a result, he was raised in an elven culture, but spent the formative years of his early adulthood in a human nation.

On the topic of elves versus humans, outside of Eberron the default setting has elves being isolationist, meaning that they don't care about the rest of the world, and wars between elves and humans are rare. A default of most settings is that the elves have been holding off the orcs using intelligence and magic for eons (since there are not orcish civilizations). Yes, LOTR is an exception to this, but then the orcs had a demigod leading and organizing them while the elves were effectively alone.

In a war between humans and elves, elves would have an initial edge due to magic and high class levels, allowing them to seize large sections of human territory, which they could then use to farm human shock troops to counter the humans' vaunted numbers (assuming they don't win outright and render humanity extinct). Let's face it, humans are almost conditioned to react favorably to elves, and it makes more sense (if you're a peasant) to follow an ageless beautiful supernatural being (wizard) than a fellow human with fancy clothes and an odd way of pronouncing the letter R.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 06:15 PM
Warning: following relates to elves in DnD


Yes, under the rules it only takes 2 months to go from 1st to 20th level, but that's only for PCs. NPC adventurers end up splattered on the end of a club somewhere in that process if they don't have any downtime. As a result, elves tend to have more high level characters than other races as a proportion of their society, since they have the time to add up low-level encounters. In elven society, I tend to assume that 1/3 of the population (approaching 1/2 in some cases) have a level in wizard and the rest are not commoners, in general.

I tend to agree with the view that elves take a hundred years to become adventurers because they are spending the rest of that time developing pose and learning elven culture. That said, I often play (or try to play) elves that are barely over the physical adulthood range (25), especially since ROTW mentioned elves of this age can be surprisingly mature. This is certainly appropriate for hyper-intelligent wizard characters. Right now I'm playing a gray elf wizard, age 35, who got kicked out of the elven island because his full sibling was born a changeling (long story). As a result, he was raised in an elven culture, but spent the formative years of his early adulthood in a human nation.

On the topic of elves versus humans, outside of Eberron the default setting has elves being isolationist, meaning that they don't care about the rest of the world, and wars between elves and humans are rare. A default of most settings is that the elves have been holding off the orcs using intelligence and magic for eons (since there are not orcish civilizations). Yes, LOTR is an exception to this, but then the orcs had a demigod leading and organizing them while the elves were effectively alone.

In a war between humans and elves, elves would have an initial edge due to magic and high class levels, allowing them to seize large sections of human territory, which they could then use to farm human shock troops to counter the humans' vaunted numbers (assuming they don't win outright and render humanity extinct). Let's face it, humans are almost conditioned to react favorably to elves, and it makes more sense (if you're a peasant) to follow an ageless beautiful supernatural being (wizard) than a fellow human with fancy clothes and an odd way of pronouncing the letter R.

Except that the cannon Epic-level casters in DnD are usually human (just look at FR!). Human's sheer numbers means that they have better odds of being higher level. Let's say 1 in every 10 elves is 2nd level. Even if you apply a *100 modifier to the human rates, the fact that Humans reproduce faster than elves means they will have the advantage in sheer numbers and levels.

Gnorman
2010-02-12, 06:37 PM
Elves turn living into an art form.

An elf may take fifty years to learn to walk but then does it perfectly. The most graceful human dancers can barely match an elf walking from place to place. This is because the most devoted human dancers have less than fifty years to dedicate to their art before their knees start to go.

Speaking of dance, elvish folk dances take centuries to learn. In order to welcome outsider guests, the elves have devised dances where a small number of dancers are expected to get it wrong, but everyone else improvises around them. This skill takes even longer to learn.

No elf ever does a sloppy job of anything. The elvish equivalent of McDonalds serves meals in museum-quality porcelain.

Getting back to RPGs, this addresses the balance issue. Sure the elvish wizard is 250 years old, but he's spent most of that learning how to be part of elvish society, and no more time on magic than a 25 year old human.

This is almost exactly what I despise about elves - that simpering, mewling arrogance combined with the notion that such a long life makes them just about perfect at everything. If someone ever told me "I turn living into an art form," I'd punch them in the mouth on general principle. Twice.

If I do use elves, they're bored, depraved sadists who have to commit increasingly shocking and disgusting atrocities just to alleviate the tedium they feel.

Gnaeus
2010-02-12, 07:40 PM
Warning: following relates to elves in DnD


On the topic of elves versus humans, outside of Eberron the default setting has elves being isolationist, meaning that they don't care about the rest of the world, and wars between elves and humans are rare. A default of most settings is that the elves have been holding off the orcs using intelligence and magic for eons (since there are not orcish civilizations). Yes, LOTR is an exception to this, but then the orcs had a demigod leading and organizing them while the elves were effectively alone.

In a war between humans and elves, elves would have an initial edge due to magic and high class levels, allowing them to seize large sections of human territory, which they could then use to farm human shock troops to counter the humans' vaunted numbers (assuming they don't win outright and render humanity extinct). Let's face it, humans are almost conditioned to react favorably to elves, and it makes more sense (if you're a peasant) to follow an ageless beautiful supernatural being (wizard) than a fellow human with fancy clothes and an odd way of pronouncing the letter R.


Where are you getting this from? I really think you are just making this up.

As Sinfire points out, most of the cannon high level casters are humans.

Elven nations in Greyhawk and FR are not described as super powerhouses which can wipe other races off the map if they could get off their chairs to be bothered. On the contrary, they are mostly small nations with the same kinds of problems as everyone else. Look at Myth Drannor, which was overwhelmed and took 600 years for the elves to even retake it.

Dragonlance elven nations get smashed by the dragonarmies. They certainly are no more powerful than, for example, the Solamnic Knights. Dark Sun elves are barely a civilization. Birthright elves are a peoples in decline. You say that you aren't talking about Eberron, but that is the only cannon D&D world with elves possessing the kind of power you describe.



If I do use elves, they're bored, depraved sadists who have to commit increasingly shocking and disgusting atrocities just to alleviate the tedium they feel.

I think you have an excellent basis for your viewpoint in mythology and contemporary fiction.

JonestheSpy
2010-02-12, 08:02 PM
My use of elves is similar to some other folks - they actually mature about the same rate as humas, then stay physically at their peak until near the end of their lifespan. The average elf is probably level 7ish, with at least a single level of sorcerer, cause that suits them better than wizard in my opinion (my campaign worlds tilt toward the lower levels, so that's pretty powerful).

Most elves are reclusive and not given to interfering in the wide world. They would never try to conquer other folks or impose their will on others in general - chaotic good, after all. Low-level elven adventurers are youngin's who are curious about the wide world, or perhaps driven by a cause or personal quest.



This is almost exactly what I despise about elves - that simpering, mewling arrogance combined with the notion that such a long life makes them just about perfect at everything.

I can't help wondering how old Gnorman is. Man, if I knew everything I do now when I was 19, I'd feel pretty superior too. Stretch that out to a couple centuries, well, I suspect it'd be pretty hard not to develop a bit of an "attitude problem", at least in the view of regular humans.

Thajocoth
2010-02-12, 08:19 PM
Lets see... All elves have great senses, giving them great aim and reaction time. They also tend to be very religious and live a long time.

If they're midgets: Their little fingers allow them to make top-quality toys. I'm not going to speak of their religions on this board. Otherwise they're tall.

If they're rich: They have a natural affinity for magic and are great casters. They usually worship a deity of magic.

If they live in a forest: They're great at hiding in a forest and using bows. They protect the forests. They usually worship a goddess of nature.

If they're dark: They live underground, worship spiders, and are the exception to the rest of their race, as good-aligned rebels. They usually worship a goddess of spiders.

If they're from space: They're highly logical and can connect their mind to other people's minds. I'm not really sure of the specifics of Vulcan religion.

-----

From the above, I can generalize as follows - All elves have great senses, giving them great aim and reaction time. They have generally mastered a specific theme, specialize in it and usually protect it, as have all their ancestors. The theme is usually related to wherever they are found to live. While a little out of place outside their native theme, they bring the best of what they know to the situation, allowing some adaptability, but it's still themed to match their native theme. They usually worship a goddess of their particular theme and live a long time.

Also, their existence is a gift to those who benefit from it, in their eyes. For a toy-making elf, this is literal, as they're giving gifts, whereas for most other elves, this manifests as a sort of arrogance.

Jayabalard
2010-02-12, 08:51 PM
Rule #1 of being an adventurer: Kill stuff, take it's loot. Homicide? Check. Kleptomania? Check. Nomad? Check. Twice if Psions are involved.Like I said, this sounds like you're restricting yourself to an extremely narrow band of character types.

Some don't kill humans, so homicide doesn't apply to them.
Some don't steal stuff; even the ones that do steal stuff generally don't do it without economic need. So kleptomania doesn't apply to them.
Some don't travel more than 10 miles outside of the city limits, even the ones that do may still have a fixed residence. so nomad wouldn't apply to them.

This sort of thing isn't really applicable when discussing elf tropes in general; it's only applicable at all if you're talking about RPG elves, and even then only in some cases.

taltamir
2010-02-12, 09:06 PM
This this this this

Also, sex with trees

the technical term is "dendrophilia"

I favor the most... literal interpretation of the term "high elf"
http://www.dragon-mango.com/comic/chapter045/dm045-01.htm

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-12, 09:15 PM
What are Elves good for? Barbeque. The light, delicately flavoured meat is lovely and tender when lightly seared and holds the wood-smoked flavour amazingly.

They are amazingly satisfying to hate, a joy to destroy, and a treat to upstage. I love to hate elves, especially because of some of the concepts in this thread. Sure, elves often consider themselves better, but they have no place actually being so.

And if they are, then it just makes it all the more satisfying to visit upon them the kind of suffering usually reserved for the enemies of particularly vengeful, old-testament style Gods.


Burn their forests, salt the earth. Kill their women and their children and scour their proud race the face of world.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 09:18 PM
Like I said, this sounds like you're restricting yourself to an extremely narrow band of character types.

Some don't kill humans, so homicide doesn't apply to them.
Some don't steal stuff; even the ones that do steal stuff generally don't do it without economic need. So kleptomania doesn't apply to them.
Some don't travel more than 10 miles outside of the city limits, even the ones that do may still have a fixed residence. so nomad wouldn't apply to them.

This sort of specific-ness isn't really applicable when discussing elf tropes in general; it's only applicable if you're talking about RPG elves.

Omnicide. There, happy? Very few campaigns that feature combat as a focus end with a kill count in the single-digits for both sides of the DM screen.

You're nitpicking there. Call it what you will, but if the enemies are dropping treasure the PCs may as well be Kleptomaniacs.

That was a generalization. Seriously. Stopping picking through the straw.

tribble
2010-02-13, 01:06 AM
Elves tend to be skinny. elves tend to be Aryan. (what?) Elves tend to be tallish. Elves tend to be arrogant. Elves tend to live a long time. Elves tend to have a society that represents the author's ideals. Elves tend toward androgyny. Elves tend towards wangst. Elves tend have a great appreciation for the natural world. Elves tend to have no appreciation for technology and personal achievement. Elves tend to get along badly with dorfs. Elves tend to shoot people in the face. elves tend to be sickeningly graceful and skilled and yadda yadda. elves tend to have enhanced perception. elves tend to have ears they can tie in knots or bows. elves may tend to be more magically attuned.

Umael,I want to see the stuff you wrote on tolkien VS anime VS pini elves,

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-13, 01:11 AM
I personally like how Dwarf Fortress played around with the usual interpretation of elves.

They're immortal, commune with the land and can actually talk to beastman without being gibbed.

But they're also the least technologically advanced species and find cannibalism and eating the flesh of fallen enemies acceptable. Lying is punishable by exile. Killing plants can be a crime.

And a bug really crawls up there when your local dwarf civilization starts to cut down too many trees to fuel their forges.

EDIT:
In short, the player takes on the dwaven perspective that elves are these really prissy savages who show up on your doorstep and make a fuss.

It doesn't help that, due to a programming oversight, that elven caravans tend to bring lots of worthless cloth for trade. This just gives players an excuse to run a diagnostic test for their newly-created magma trap.

chiasaur11
2010-02-13, 01:11 AM
This is almost exactly what I despise about elves - that simpering, mewling arrogance combined with the notion that such a long life makes them just about perfect at everything. If someone ever told me "I turn living into an art form," I'd punch them in the mouth on general principle. Twice.


You have more restraint than I, friend.

tribble
2010-02-13, 01:17 AM
I personally like how Dwarf Fortress played around with the usual interpretation of elves.

They're immortal, commune with the land and can actually talk to beastman without being gibbed.

But they're also the least technologically advanced species and find cannibalism and eating the flesh of fallen enemies acceptable. Lying is punishable by exile. Killing plants can be a crime.

And a bug really crawls up there when your local dwarf civilization starts to cut down too many trees to fuel their forges.

I've posted that we should make them drug-addled psychopaths who are really into BDSM and snuff and other nasty stuff. like, so drugged-up slaughtering them might get you tipsy.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-13, 01:21 AM
I've posted that we should make them drug-addled psychopaths who are really into BDSM and snuff and other nasty stuff. like, so drugged-up slaughtering them might get you tipsy.
Eh. Too over the top.

However, if their warriors got high on something before running off to combat, it would really play up the savage angle. Since a berserking elf that keeps going long after his body should have realized he is dead really won't improve stereotypes.

tribble
2010-02-13, 01:29 AM
Eh. Too over the top.

However, if their warriors got high on something before running off to combat, it would really play up the savage angle. Since a berserking elf that keeps going long after his body should have realized he is dead really won't improve stereotypes.

looking back, it's gotten more over the top than when i came up with it. here's the idea I was referring to:


instead of skinny nordic mary sues the elves can be Drug-Addicted RIPNTEAR enthusiasts with a thing for carving new orifices to "use",

over the top? maybe. fun though, especially when throwing my version at skinnyfatkids with an elf fixation.

taltamir
2010-02-13, 02:05 AM
What are Elves good for? Barbeque. The light, delicately flavoured meat is lovely and tender when lightly seared and holds the wood-smoked flavour amazingly.

X_X... ha, well you aren't the first to think of that!
http://www.wtfcomics.com/archive.html?357_24

Note: if years from now someone comes across this thread and this link doesn't work, check out page 24 of the archive of WTFcomics.

BTW, if there is one thing elves are bad at, its hunting (eg: vegeterians)

Coidzor
2010-02-13, 02:41 AM
Barrels of Elf Pudding. Which is exactly what it sounds like.

absolmorph
2010-02-13, 04:20 AM
Elves cause cancer.
My grandmother died of elven cancer.

Calmar
2010-02-13, 05:38 AM
On the other hand, in other legends, the borders between elves and fey were just as undefined. So they can be child-stealing, soulless, immortals repelled by iron.

That's roughly the way I handle elves and fey in my game. My elves are mostly standard in regards of their abilities, but fluffwise they're by no means per se better than humans, dwarves, ... or hobgoblins.
On the other hand I have the fair and foul fey who are inspired by Celtic and Nordic myths and tales. They may be superior to the mortal races on one way or another, but they're not available to players.

Kris Strife
2010-02-13, 07:34 AM
My grandmother died of elven cancer.

It was given to her by an elven witch.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-13, 07:42 AM
Elves also have tiny penises. Especially the women.

Malacode
2010-02-13, 08:40 AM
This thread reminds me of a song.... From "Elfy, get your gun", IIRC

Anything you can do,
ELVES can do better.
ELVES can do anything
Better than you.

No, you can't.
Yes, ELVES can. No, they can't.
Yes, ELVES can. No, they can't.
Yes, ELVES can,
Yes, they can!

Anything you can be
ELVES can be greater.
Sooner or later,
Elves're greater than you.

No, they're not. Yes, ELVES are.
No, they're not. Yes, ELVES are.
No, they're NOT!. Yes, ELVES are.
Yes, they are!

ELVES can shoot a partridge
With a single cartridge.
ELVES can get a sparrow
With a bow and arrow.
ELVES can live on bread and cheese.
And only on that?
Yes.
So can a rat!
Any note you can reach
ELVES can go higher.
ELVES can sing anything
Higher than you.
No, they can't. (High)
Yes, ELVES can. (Higher) No, they can't. (Higher)
Yes, ELVES can. (Higher) No, they can't. (Higher)
Yes, ELVES can. (Higher) No, they can't. (Higher)
Yes, ELVES can. (Higher) No, they can't. (Higher)
Yes, ELVES CAN! (Highest)

Anything you can buy
ELVES can buy cheaper.
ELVES can buy anything
Cheaper than you.

Fifty gp?
Forty gp! Thirty gp?
Twenty gp! No, you can't!
Yes, they can,
Yes, they can!
Anything you can say
ELVES can say softer.
ELVES can say anything
Softer than you.
No, you can't. (Softly)
Yes, they can. (Softer) No, they can't. (Softer)
Yes, they can. (Softer) No, they can't. (Softer)
Yes, they can. (Softer)
YES, THEY CAN! (Full volume)
ELVES can drink their liquor
Faster than a flicker.
I can drink it quicker
And get even sicker!
ELVES can open any safe.
Without bein' caught.
Sure.
That's what I thought

Any note you can hold
ELVES can hold longer.
ELVES can hold any note
Longer than you.

No, they can't.
Yes, ELVES can No, they can't.
Yes, they can No, they can't.
Yes, they can
Yes, E-E-E-E-E-LVES can! No, you C-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-N'T--
CA-A-A-A-N! (Cough, cough!)
Yes, they ca-a-a-an!

Anything you can wear
ELVES can wear better.
In what you wear
Elves'd look better than you.
In my coat?
In your vest! In your shoes!
In your hat! No, you can't!
Yes, they can
YES, ELVES CAN!
Anything you say
ELVES can say faster.
ELVES can say anything
Faster than you.
No, they can't. (Fast)
Yes, ELVES can. (Faster) No, they can't. (Faster)
Yes, they can. (Faster) Notheycan't. (Faster)
Yestheycan! (Fastest)

I can jump a hurdle.
I can wear a girdle.
I can knit a sweater.

ELVES can fill it better!
ELVES can do most anything!

Anything you can sing
ELVES can sing sweeter.
ELVES can sing anything
Sweeter than you.
No, they can't. (Sweetly)
Yes, ELVES can. (Sweeter) No, they can't. (Sweeter)
Yes, ELVES can. (Sweeter) No, they can't. (Sweeter)
Yes, ELVES can. (Sweeter) No, they can't, can't, can't (sweeter)
Yes, ELVES can, can, can (Sugary)

Yes, they can! No, they can't!

:smalltongue:

Jayabalard
2010-02-13, 10:01 AM
Omnicide. I don't think that fits either. A Dodge Omni isn't alive, so you can't kill it either


That was a generalization.It's not generalization, it's bad terminology; you're being specific in a way that doesn't generalize.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-13, 10:41 AM
I don't think that fits either. A Dodge Omni isn't alive, so you can't kill it either

It's not generalization, it's bad terminology; you're being specific in a way that doesn't generalize.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=74346&type=card

Jayabalard
2010-02-13, 10:55 AM
What? You're implying that something is the general case when it's not, and you're using that generality as the basis of your counterargument. You're talking about something that is specific to how some people play RPGs, not elven tropes in general, and not even "how all people play RPGs characters" ... You're using words with extremely specific meanings in place of the more appropriate general ones, making your specific case even less general.

Bibliomancer
2010-02-13, 03:16 PM
What? You're implying that something is the general case when it's not, and you're using that generality as the basis of your counterargument. You're talking about something that is specific to how some people play RPGs, not elven tropes in general, and not even "how all people play RPGs characters" ... You're using words with extremely specific meanings in place of the more appropriate general ones, making your specific case even less general.

Adventurers, by definition, are mobile, often homeless people (humanoids, hopefully) who kill things and take their possessions, with an optional side-order of saving the world.

The primary exception to the above involves the Book of Exalted Deeds, and so doesn't count for the vast majority of D&D.

[Note that roleplaying intensive campaigns focus on defeating people and forcing them to give you their possessions using diplomacy instead of swords.]

Umael
2010-02-13, 07:20 PM
Umael,I want to see the stuff you wrote on tolkien VS anime VS pini elves,

I don't know where I put the stuff I had, but here is the generalization. And yes, I used D&D terms for them.

Tolkien elves were basically D&D elves, as per the core book. Taking the viewpoint of any of the elves from Tolkien and assigning them to D&D stats worked pretty well.

Anime elves looked like very attractive, slender humans, only with really long pointed elves that stuck straight out to the sizes. They had a bonus to Dexterity and Charisma (being faster and more sociable than humans), but a penalty to Intelligence and Wisdom (being hyperactive, over-sexed idiots - and yes, my anime-loving friends hated me for that). The cultural personality for them was that of the worst of stereotypes of the perpetual teenagers - loving to party, get into fights, have lots of sexes, and generally not care too much about what might happen tomorrow. On the other hand, they completely lacked dedication (or attention-span), and you could never EVER rely on them, except to get into trouble.

(No, I don't have a problem with anime, but I got annoyed with how a bunch of anime elves were portrayed. So sue me.)

I know there was more to them, but I can't recall what.

Pini elves were Small, with a bonus to Dexterity and a penalty to Strength. They were granted bonuses to hit any Humanoid of Medium-size or larger, and had a bonus to their AC for the same. They got a bonus to Listen and/or Spot (don't remember which), and limited animal empathy. Basically, they started with one animal companion like the druid character class. They also got along with humans like 1st edition elves and dwarves did - which is to say, not.


Sadly, that's about all I could recall.

chiasaur11
2010-02-13, 07:32 PM
Elves live at the north pole and make toys. They are small, energetic, and sometimes played by Bob Newhart.

That is all we need to know about elves.

Bibliomancer
2010-02-13, 08:37 PM
Elves live at the north pole and make toys. They are small, energetic, and sometimes played by Bob Newhart.

That is all we need to know about elves.

Pleased to make your acquaintance, but what kind of name is "Zeus"? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)

Jayabalard
2010-02-14, 12:49 AM
Adventurers, by definition, are mobile, often homeless people (humanoids, hopefully) who kill things and take their possessions, with an optional side-order of saving the world.No, by definition they are just people who seek adventure. Some of them meet the rest of your criteria and some do not.

For example: some adventurers remain in the same city for their entire career (city based campaign). These adventurers are not particular mobile or homeless. Some don't do the "and take their possessions" part, instead getting paid by some employer for services rendered. Some don't do the "kill people" part, only fighting against non-people (undead, constructs, monstrous animals, etc)


doesn't count for the vast majority of D&D.This thread has nothing to do with D&D; it's only tangentially related to gaming at all. So it's irrelevant whether a certain type of gaming makes up the vast majority of D&D games or not.

And really, the whole point is that if you're going to argue against the tropes that someone suggests, and they aren't talking about elves from any particular RPG, you probably shouldn't start base your argument on a specific gaming style of a specific RPG.

Light-Hero
2010-03-01, 10:48 AM
Elves are bonded with the world. They should be the essence of your campaign world. The people which were suppose to live in world.
Thus all of the tree-hugging and harmony crap, because they are often a natural part of the "material plane" or midgaard or what ever.