[3.5]LA - why is it bad?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I've seen lots of people here and on other forums say that level adjustment isn't worth it, and should be avoided. No-one's ever really mentioned why. I guess this has been covered before, and I'm expected to know already, but I must have missed that lecture.

So, a straight question: why do you think having a level adjustment for a race is bad?

[kamikasei]

The point of level adjustment is supposed to be that the special abilities granted by the race are worth the lost levels. This is simply held to not be the case in the vast majority of examples. Partly it's that the loss of HD and therefore hit points, saves and BAB make you too fragile and unbalanced for your level. Partly it's that class features for those levels are generally going to be worth more to you than most special abilities. Mostly it's just that WotC seems to calculate "appropriate" LA using a fiendishly complex and badly damaged computing engine programmed for EVIL.

(In fact, there's a widespread suspicion which may have support in comments from WotC insiders that LA races are deliberately overcosted in order to discourage players from picking "weird" races.)

[Bayar]

Having LA means you will be higher in level than the other party members, without having the equivalent power of a higher level character.

Plus, it delays spellcasting progression, no skill points, no feats, no HP, no BAB...

[Narazil]

Having LA means you will be higher in level than the other party members
Wait, what? How many DMs run characters by straight character level, and not ECL?
In all the games I've played, I've never encountered "free" LA like that. LA+CL(+RHD) = ECL, so in a ECL 2 party, you could be LA+1 and have one level of a class, or simply play a LA+0 and have two levels of a class.

[Optimystik]

Wait, what? How many DMs run characters by straight character level, and not ECL?
In all the games I've played, I've never encountered "free" LA like that. LA+CL(+RHD) = ECL, so in a ECL 2 party, you could be LA+1 and have one level of a class, or simply play a LA+0 and have two levels of a class.

That's what he meant, but worded poorly. (LA means you will actually be LOWER than the other party members, yet gain XP at the same rate they do.)

[Grumman]

So, a straight question: why do you think having a level adjustment for a race is bad?
Er... LA is inherently bad, the idea is that the rest of the race is good enough that it more or less balances out.

Unfortunately, outside of Gestalt and LA buyoff, this is rarely the case.

[Oslecamo]

Having LA means you will be higher in level than the other party members, without having the equivalent power of a higher level character.
Not necessarily. There's several LAs out there that are actualy quite balanced (half-ogre, ogre, pixie, the jackal thingy from MMV), and some that are actualy pretty darn strong (feral, mineral warrior).



Plus, it delays spellcasting progression, no skill points, no feats, no HP, no BAB...

Many LAs offer stat bonus or flat out skill bonus that make up for the lack of skill points, BAB and HP, and many template offer flat out extra feats.

The succubbus for example has +8 to a bunch of usefull skills, and then huge mental stats, so it will actualy have better mental skills than a 13th level character.

Really, the only ones who're screwed are spellcasters, and even then, just cast polymorph on yourself if you want to be an ogre wizard so badly.

[Narazil]

Not necessarily. There's several LAs out there that are actualy quite balanced (half-ogre, ogre, pixie, the jackal thingy from MMV), and some that are actualy pretty darn strong (feral, mineral warrior).

To be honest, no. The bonuses almost never outweigh what you give up.

You give up 6 levels to be an Ogre, for example - 4d8 hd, 3 BAB, and 4/1/1 saves is not that great for 4 levels.
ECL 7 Ogre with 1 level of Barbarian, 18 CON, will have roughly 47 HP. (12+8+9+8+10). A straight Barbarian would have roughly 79.


Mineral Warrior is pretty overpowered. It's a bit unfair to bring it up here.

[Oslecamo]

To be honest, no. The bonuses almost never outweigh what you give up.
Depends on what you're using the LA for. If you pick ogre and plan to



You give up 6 levels to be an Ogre, for example - 4d8 hd, 3 BAB, and 4/1/1 saves is not that great for 4 levels.


You however gain +10 str, +5 natural armor and +4 con.

A straight warrior dude would have +5/+2/+2 saves. You just lose 1. Hardly crippling. Wait, your fort actualy gets better thanks to the extra con. And being a giant AND large size protects you from several effects.

That's an extra +5 to hit (more than makes up for the lack of BAB) and a lot more damage.

Oh, and large size, wich is really really sweet for melee dude. Reach and bonus on grapple/trip and stuff.

So, if you plan to make a rogue ogre, it isn't that sweet, but an ogre barbarian/fighter/warblade works pretty well.

EDIT: Where did you get that math? If the normal barbarian has 18 con, the ogre barbarian has 22, for 54.5 HP. At higher levels, the ogre quickly surpasses the normal barbarian.

[Narazil]

You however gain +10 str, +5 natural armor and +4 con.

A straight warrior dude would have +5/+2/+2 saves. You just lose 1. Hardly crippling. Wait, your fort actualy gets better thanks to the extra con. And being a giant AND large size protects you from several effects.

That's an extra +5 to hit (more than makes up for the lack of BAB) and a lot more damage.

Oh, and large size, wich is really really sweet for melee dude. Reach and bonus on grapple/trip and stuff.

So, if you plan to make a rogue ogre, it isn't that sweet, but an ogre barbarian/fighter/warblade works pretty well.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying an Ogre Barbarian (for example) would flat out suck compare to a standard one. They just tend to become glass cannons, even with their +4 CON. d8 racial HD and LA hurts. Coupled with worse save than usual, you could easily find yourself in a world of hurt.

Edit: HP - let's see.
Human: 12, 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7 + 28 from CON bonus - 79 HP.
Ogre: 8, 4, 5, 4, 6, + 30 from CON bonus - 57.

Should be correct. Ogre with +6 CON bonus.

[Oslecamo]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying an Ogre Barbarian (for example) would flat out suck compare to a standard one. They just tend to become glass cannons, even with their +4 CON. d8 racial HD and LA hurts. Coupled with worse save than usual, you could easily find yourself in a world of hurt.

The save is just -1 than normal at will and reflex. The fort is actualy better.

And the ogre ends up with more HP at high levels. Your math was wrong. At 7th level the ogre has 57 and the "normal" has 79. And then the ogre gets 12,5 per level while the "normal" gets 10,5. Around level 18, they should be equal.

And then the ogre can make LA buyoff to get more ahead.

[Narazil]

The save is just -1 than normal at will and reflex.

And the ogre ends up with more HP at high levels. Your math was wrong. At 7th level the ogre has 54,5 and the "normal" has 73,5. And then the ogre gets 12,5 per level while the "normal" gets 10,5.

Yea I know, I edited in the proper numbers in the post above.

[Foryn Gilnith]

They just tend to become glass cannons, even with their +4 CON. d8 racial HD and LA hurts.

More precisely, in terms of brute HP, Ogre doesn't break even compared to a human barbarian until ECL 14. At ECL 13 the human has 1 more HP on average, at ECL 14 the ogre has that 1 HP advantage.
Con has other benefits, of course, but HP is the big one.

EDIT: With LA buyoff the levels just shift down by 1. Still a long time to wait to have average HP.

[Oslecamo]

Yea I know, I edited in the proper numbers in the post above.

Then let's check the pro-cons here:

Ogre loses:
-Worst reflex and will.
-Worst HP(untill level 14)
-One less feat.
-Two levels behind skill points and horrid mental stats.

Ogre wins:
-Better AC and fortitude.
-Faster and bigger reach, so he can close in the enemy taking less hits.
-MUCH better battlefield control thanks to large size.
-More raw damage thanks to higher STR, despite the loss of BAB.
-Qualifies for large-size special stuff.

So, really, how is the ogre left behind? Two defenses down, two defenses up, he'll reach the enemy faster to make up for the lack of HP and hits hard all the time. His non str skill sucks, ok, but that's your average dumb barbarian for you.

[Runestar]

That's the thing about LA. It stings really bad at lower lvs, when you really need all the HD you can get to survive (since it is the only thing which grants extra hp, the rest can really be simulated using superior physical stats).

At higher lvs, you should have enough hp to weather a few hits before going down, so having less hp compared to a straight-classed PC isn't all that bad. I know that at lv14+, I wouldn't mind taking a template like half-celestial or half-dragon compared to more lvs of fighter or barb.

Plus, monsters tend to come with natural armour (to compensate for them not typically wearing armour). So a melee monster PC will typically have better AC but worse hp. This tradeoff is supposedly worth it.

The loss of bab does delay the acquisition of iterative attacks, though again, this has it breakpoints. So depending on the lv of play, you may or may not feel the pinch.

The funny thing about the OP's statement is that I have heard that statement only used in the contest of pure spellcasters, as no amount of racial benefits can presumably compensate for the loss of spellcaster lvs. Conversely for fighters, templates/monster PCs can pretty much replicate what they get (and possibly more).

[Xenogears]

More precisely, in terms of brute HP, Ogre doesn't break even compared to a human barbarian until ECL 14. At ECL 13 the human has 1 more HP on average, at ECL 14 the ogre has that 1 HP advantage.
Con has other benefits, of course, but HP is the big one.

EDIT: With LA buyoff the levels just shift down by 1. Still a long time to wait to have average HP.

But large-Sized means Warhulk. Warhulk is awesome. Also Knockback. And +5Reach. And some other stuff. I'd say if you tally the plus' and minus' it winds up about equal in the end. Which is exactly what should happen with LA. You should be equal to someone of your ECL. Weaker in some areas and stronger in others of course. HP happens to be an area youd be weak in. You would do more damage though. About the same chance to hit (BAB loss made up for by +STR). Better AC. Slightly worse saves. Etc.

[Cuaqchi]

The other problem with 'HP' however is something that an increased CON doesn't help against. A large number of spells are limited by target Hit Dice if you have 2 or 3 levels without hit-dice you can and often will be targetted by effects that your allies shrug off.

It is why Racial Hit Dice as sucky as they are, are not as bad as LA. Even if you get only d4 points per level (Fey) you have increased your hit dice and resistance to said spells. Add in Natural Armour, Spell-Like Abilities, Size, etc. and if nothing else Racial Hit Dice can be considered comparable to certain melee class hit dice though this isn't always the case.

[magic9mushroom]

Mostly, the LA isn't worth it. Take trolls for instance. With 5 HD and 6 LA (might be the other way around) you can play one at level 11. But they're a CR 5 monster, which will be utterly slaughtered by CR 11 threats.

There are some LAs that are worth it or even overpowered, one of the most infamous being White Dragonspawn which has +1 LA in exchange for +2 Dex, +2 Con, +7 natural armour, a breath weapon, natural weapons, flight at double land speed with good maneuverability, low-light and darkvision, and a level of sorcerer casting as well as the monstrous humanoid type and access to dragon feats.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I think some of the LA's are good. Some are bad..

Pixie is good for its LA
as are half ogre... etc

some are not so hot for there LA
such as the genasi or asamar's or tieflings, etc

and others that need LA such as wisper gnomes...

I think the LA system is inherently good... with or without buy off.
I just think that some of the races need to have there stuff readjusted.. as well as I think the rules for Racial HD need to be changed..

Why is it that if i have 1 HD race i can drop that racial HD for a class level but when i have a 2hd race i can't drop one of them for a class level...

[Oslecamo]

Mostly, the LA isn't worth it. Take trolls for instance. With 5 HD and 6 LA (might be the other way around) you can play one at level 11. But they're a CR 5 monster, which will be utterly slaughtered by CR 11 threats.


LA doesn't work that way...Your PC troll will benefit from the following:
-Point buy, so he gets better stats than your average troll.
-PC wealth. Money is power.
-PC support. Your average troll normaly won't have a caster or two of same level buffing him.

So, really, he'll be much stronger than your average CR5 troll.

Granted, 6 LA may still be too much for a troll.

[Xenogears]

Why is it that if i have 1 HD race i can drop that racial HD for a class level but when i have a 2hd race i can't drop one of them for a class level...

That annoys me too. LA tends to be too high anyway but the difference between 1 RHD and 2 RHD is huge. It sucks.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'd say if you tally the plus' and minus' it winds up about equal in the end.

OK, sure; I'm not willing to argue that, and there are many good points in your favor. I'm just saying that one of the minuses is a significant loss of HP. After some bad experiences with an LA race, that is unpalatable for me, personally.

[RagnaroksChosen]

That annoys me too. LA tends to be too high anyway but the difference between 1 RHD and 2 RHD is huge. It sucks.

ya honestly I think what ever companies make d20 games need to sit and look at the LA and RHD of things make sure thats where they should be.
I still think you should be able to trade in 1 racial hit die for class levels.
I don't think LA should change, I do think RHD should change a bit and I think ALL races should have there LA's checked.


I also belive RHD are a function of CR. in the sense that it seems RHD are what they are do to a monsters CR.

[magic9mushroom]

LA doesn't work that way...Your PC troll will benefit from the following:
-Point buy, so he gets better stats than your average troll.

Elite array. Sure. That's +1 CR.


-PC wealth. Money is power.

The same applies to any PC, kinda.


-PC support. Your average troll normaly won't have a caster or two of same level buffing him.

Depends on the encounter. It's an externality.


So, really, he'll be much stronger than your average CR5 troll.

Granted, 6 LA may still be too much for a troll.

Ok, yeah, CR 6 + PC wealth. Compared to the rest of the party at CR 11 (11 presumably synergistic class levels) + PC wealth. He sucks.

[Runestar]

The interesting thing about trolls is that MM5 introduced the bladerager troll, which has the same ECL, but is superior in every aspect (even gets free mindblank!). So it can be argued that in hindsight, the troll's ECL is too high.

But some monsters do possess abilities that npcs just aren't equipped to deal with, and designers probably assumed the worse case scenario when trying to balance that out. For example, troll's regeneration is hard to overcome since many monsters in the MM don't automatically have access to fire/acid damage. This means your troll PC can be very difficult to kill, especially if he can access fire/acid resistance (easier for a PC with better access to magic gear/buffs).

Or look at the angels with their laundry list of special abilities. How do you even begin to balance those out?

But I agree that the first step should be to re-evaluate the ECLs of every monster in existence.

[Xenogears]

OK, sure; I'm not willing to argue that, and there are many good points in your favor. I'm just saying that one of the minuses is a significant loss of HP. After some bad experiences with an LA race, that is unpalatable for me, personally.

Yeah it can really really suck to be a Glass Cannon when you're trying to be a Tank.

[Oslecamo]

Ok, yeah, CR 6 + PC wealth. Compared to the rest of the party at CR 11 (11 presumably synergistic class levels) + PC wealth. He sucks.

What you're missing here is that non-humanoid monsters normaly get a lot less treasure than humanoids.

An humanoid NPC of CR11 gets a lot more gear than a CR11 monster whitout class levels as per the rules. The humanoid is expected to have extra gear to make up for the lack of super special abilities and obscene stats.

Thus, you cannot say that the extra wealth of the troll cancels the extra wealth of the party. The party is expected to have super gear. The troll isn't.

Anyway, the LA is still too high, but something like +2/+3 LA should be balanced.

[Xenogears]

Anyway, the LA is still too high, but something like +2/+3 LA should be balanced.

The main problem with LA is it has to change depending on the indivudual game. If everyone is playing monks, truenampers, and CW Samurai your probably better off leaving the ECL as is. If everyone is using ToB it might need to be lowered. If your setting is the Plane of Fire it neds to be lowered A LOT. If its the Plane of Fire and Acid Don't Exist Here it needs to be raised a lot. Etc.

LA really seems like something a DM would hafta work out himself given the average level of optimization and setting specific weaknesses/strengths. And thats a lot of work.

[Oslecamo]

LA really seems like something a DM would hafta work out himself given the average level of optimization and setting specific weaknesses/strengths. And thats a lot of work.

But you can say that from anything in D&D!

If the part is composed of a truenamer, a monk and a sorceror with only damage spells, and then a new player comes with a batman wizard/incantrix, you'll probably have to tell the new player to make a new weaker character.

If the party is composed of a planar sheperd, cheater of mystra and artificer of DOOM, you'll probably have to find a way to buff the newbie's warlock.

And heck, one sugestion I even made in this forum was that for higher powered campaigns, players could trade dead levels for free LA.

And honestly, if your seting is in the plane of fire, why the hell would anyone want to play a troll? That would be like puting ranks in swimming in a desert campaign!

Thus, we should look at the average D&D game, aka the average D&D classes. Barbarian, rogue and bard in particular are excellent middle points. If a monster PC can keep up with them, then the LA should be fine.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The main problem with LA is it has to change depending on the indivudual game. If everyone is playing monks, truenampers, and CW Samurai your probably better off leaving the ECL as is. If everyone is using ToB it might need to be lowered. If your setting is the Plane of Fire it neds to be lowered A LOT. If its the Plane of Fire and Acid Don't Exist Here it needs to be raised a lot. Etc.

LA really seems like something a DM would hafta work out himself given the average level of optimization and setting specific weaknesses/strengths. And thats a lot of work.

I think one needs to look at it as a generic point of view of course situationaly it could be raised or lowered... but in a standard generic dnd game would it be over powered.

[magic9mushroom]

I think one needs to look at it as a generic point of view of course situationaly it could be raised or lowered... but in a standard generic dnd game would it be over powered.

Troll overpowered at 11 ECL? You kidding me?

[Oslecamo]

Troll overpowered at 11 ECL? You kidding me?

I believe he meant to say that we can't look at extreme situations. Saying that a troll can't keep up with a wizard/incantrix of DOOM isn't saying much, as very few things can.

If however you lower the LA so much that the troll outshines the barbarian, then you've lowered it too much. In particular, LA+0 as you sugested, means the troll PC rips apart the barbarian in tiny pieces.

[AstralFire]

The main problem with LA is that it is flatout unbalanced in 95% of situations. If it doesn't suck outright, half the things with LA are glass cannons at low levels.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I believe he meant to say that we can't look at extreme situations. Saying that a troll can't keep up with a wizard/incantrix of DOOM isn't saying much, as very few things can.

If however you lower the LA so much that the troll outshines the barbarian, then you've lowered it too much.

Exactly...

All I'm saying is you have to look at balance like that in the middle without taking extremes...

if your GM is throwing incantrix's and uberchargers at you at ecl 11 then its not a very good way to look at balance...

If we are going to examine the balance of a rule we can look at it from a TO or CO perspective we have to look at it with a generic perspective... which unfortunatly gets alot more difficult.


@AstralFire:
Isn't that the point that there glass cannons at lower level?

[Xenogears]

The main problem with LA is that it is flatout unbalanced in 95% of situations. If it doesn't suck outright, half the things with LA are glass cannons at low levels.

And the other 5% make the other melee types look like chumps at all levels. I mean there are very few instances where a melee character will not be better by taking Half-Minotaur.

[magic9mushroom]

And the other 5% make the other melee types look like chumps at all levels. I mean there are very few instances where a melee character will not be better by taking Half-Minotaur.

Where's Half-Minotaur from?

[Optimystik]

Where's Half-Minotaur from?

Dragon Magazine I think

EDIT: DR 313 according to Crystalkeep

[Xenogears]

Dragon Magazine I think

EDIT: DR 313 according to Crystalkeep

Yeah that seems to have been a giant Half-X mag according to that site.

[Oslecamo]

And the other 5% make the other melee types look like chumps at all levels. I mean there are very few instances where a melee character will not be better by taking Half-Minotaur.

Half minotaur is only ba-roken if you use the cheesy interpretation that you get stat bonus for the large size in addition to the racial bonus, but the much more balanced reading is that the large size only gives the standard -1 to hit and AC, +4 to grapple and trip, ect, ect.

After all, the MM is pretty clear than creatures only get stat bonus for increasing size only and only when they increase size by advancing HD.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Half minotaur is only ba-roken if you use the cheesy interpretation that you get stat bonus for the large size in addition to the racial bonus, but the much more balanced reading is that the large size only gives the standard -1 to hit and AC, +4 to grapple and trip, ect, ect.

After all, the MM is pretty clear than creatures only get stat bonus for increasing size only and only when they increase size by advancing HD.


If the Base Creature was of Small or Medium size, its size is
increased by one category, with all the appropriate changes to its
ability scores, etc., plus a +10’ improvement to base movement.
These changes are in addition to the bonuses and penalties listed.

Emphisis mine... it has nothing to do with interpretation thats actualy part of the class.

It is over powered...


I'd like to bring up a point im noticing that alot of people are using examples of LA's that are off. We all know /agree that the LA for alot of monsters is off and needs to be adjusted... Assuminng that they are adjusted to the appropriate LA would that make LA ok?
Is the LA mechanic it self flawed or is it just the monsters having the wrong LA.

[elonin]

Isn't there a 1/2 minotaur in unearthed arcana or is that just the bloodline?

My guess for why LA rules being so unfriendly is something like: WOTC didn't envision people wanting to make characters from the monster manual, and wanted to make it nigh impossible to destroy game balance. Which is hilarious because they then allowed full on casters to have things like polymorph.

[Oslecamo]

Emphisis mine... it has nothing to do with interpretation thats actualy part of the class.

It is over powered...


And what do you consider the "apropriate changes"?

Because last time I checked, there's no apropriate changes listed anywhere for increasing size thanks to a template. Only for increasing size thanks to HD advancement.

Dragon magazine is renowed for it's horrible wording. The main reason why even the most free handed DMs will touch it only with a 11 foot stick.

[RagnaroksChosen]

And what do you consider the "apropriate changes"?

Because last time I checked, there's no apropriate changes listed anywhere for increasing size thanks to a template. Only for increasing size thanks to HD advancement.

Dragon magazine is renowed for it's horrible wording. The main reason why even the most free handed DMs will touch it only with a 11 foot stick.


Size and Type

Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.

If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus.

You are correct sir it does not add ability bonuses according to the srd.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I think that the "correct interpretation" of Half-Minotaur is the interpretation where you interpret it as text in Italian. It consequently becomes gibberish and is discarded. Balance is preserved.

[Oslecamo]

You are correct sir it does not add ability bonuses according to the srd.

Fine. Any way, half-minotaur used that way is considered so broken that I don't even see it used in theoretical optimization. It's an extreme situation, and should not be used as the average, just like we don't use planar sheperd with a time plane for balance.

Speaking of planar sheper, it's an excellent example.

95% of prcs are unbalanced, most of them being trash and then some ba-roken stuff like planar sheperd. Does this mean that prcs are bad?

No, because there's still dozens of playable usefull and relatively balanced prcs in the remaining 5%. Same for LA.

[BRC]

Fine. Any way, half-minotaur used that way is considered so broken that I don't even see it used in theoretical optimization. It's an extreme situation, and should not be used as the average, just like we don't use planar sheperd with a time plane for balance.

Speaking of planar sheper, it's an excellent example.

95% of prcs are unbalanced, most of them being trash and then some ba-roken stuff like planar sheperd. Does this mean that prcs are bad?

No, because there's still dozens of playable usefull and relatively balanced prcs in the remaining 5%. Same for LA.
Here's the thing about LA

Low LA races generally just give you some stat boosts and maybe a skill bonus or two. Mechanically, you're character is pretty much just like if you played an LA 0 race, just slightly better at something, but with less progression and class features.

The races that give you nifty abilities or significant ability score boosts tend to be high-LA with some racial hit die stacked on, eating up a good chunk of your character's levels, which means you're using them at mid to high level play, when Casters start to dominate and your party members are pulling in nifty abilities from PRC's while you only have 5 hit die and 2 class levels.

[Starbuck_II]

Fine. Any way, half-minotaur used that way is considered so broken that I don't even see it used in theoretical optimization. It's an extreme situation, and should not be used as the average, just like we don't use planar sheperd with a time plane for balance.

Speaking of planar sheper, it's an excellent example.

95% of prcs are unbalanced, most of them being trash and then some ba-roken stuff like planar sheperd. Does this mean that prcs are bad?

No, because there's still dozens of playable usefull and relatively balanced prcs in the remaining 5%. Same for LA.

True because WotC made most things unbalanced on accident. Planar Shepard was on purpose. They knew it would be too strong.

[magic9mushroom]

True because WotC made most things unbalanced on accident. Planar Shepard was on purpose. They knew it would be too strong.

I'd like to see your source for that.

[AstralFire]

The significant difference with LA is that it's supposed to be a mechanic specifically to preserve balance and in general a given LA is at best an actually accurate balancing factor for about 3 levels, and everywhere else is too weak or too strong.

[Starbuck_II]

I'd like to see your source for that.

Dude, they list planar bubble as an ability. Then as a example list Efreeti as a wild shape choice (you gain the spell-likes). Yes, the wish granter.
It takes a big fool not to see the interaction between them.
They did it on purpose.

[Optimystik]

Carelessness does not have to be intentional to be egregious.

[SaintRidley]

Dude, they list planar bubble as an ability. Then as a example list Efreeti as a wild shape choice (you gain the spell-likes). Yes, the wish granter.
It takes a big fool not to see the interaction between them.
They did it on purpose.

After Complete Psionic I was never quite sure WotC ever did anything on purpose.

[Oslecamo]

The races that give you nifty abilities or significant ability score boosts tend to be high-LA with some racial hit die stacked on, eating up a good chunk of your character's levels, which means you're using them at mid to high level play, when Casters start to dominate and your party members are pulling in nifty abilities from PRC's while you only have 5 hit die and 2 class levels.

Ah, but how many PRC's actualy give you nifty abilities?

Perhaps the half-caster prcs? They're regarded as crap by most optimizers, but there's plenty of them out there.

Or the ravager, who eats away your own gear for very minimal bonus.

Out of all the gish classes ever printed, how many actualy work in an effecient way?

Perhaps the BOVD ones that demand you to be a medium level spellcaster, and then reset your spells from 1st level whitout any real benefit.

Really, the prcs that give nifty cool abilities that are equal/better than your base class abilities are quite rare if you take in acount the huge piles of useless prcs out there.

Black ethergaunt for example is ECL 20, but is actualy just as strong as a wizard 20, if not better. It would definetely curb stomp any noncaster 20.

[magic9mushroom]

Dude, they list planar bubble as an ability. Then as a example list Efreeti as a wild shape choice (you gain the spell-likes). Yes, the wish granter.
It takes a big fool not to see the interaction between them.
They did it on purpose.

I know how insanely broken it is, but Tainted Scholar is just as broken, and they missed that. (All the sample NPC tainted scholars had optimised Int instead of Con and Wis, and had quite low values for taint even then).

[Ormagoden]

Not necessarily. There's several LAs out there that are actualy quite balanced (half-ogre, ogre, pixie, the jackal thingy from MMV), and some that are actualy pretty darn strong (feral, mineral warrior).



Many LAs offer stat bonus or flat out skill bonus that make up for the lack of skill points, BAB and HP, and many template offer flat out extra feats.

The succubbus for example has +8 to a bunch of usefull skills, and then huge mental stats, so it will actualy have better mental skills than a 13th level character.

Really, the only ones who're screwed are spellcasters, and even then, just cast polymorph on yourself if you want to be an ogre wizard so badly.


I think Oslecamo hit the nail on the head earlier in the thread.

+LA is horrible with very few exceptions.

Namely his examples of ogre, half-ogre, pixe, mineral warrior, necropolitican, and feral. (also tauric if you go back to 3.0)

[magic9mushroom]

I think Oslecamo hit the nail on the head earlier in the thread.

+LA is horrible with very few exceptions.

Namely his examples of ogre, half-ogre, pixe, mineral warrior, necropolitican, and feral. (also tauric if you go back to 3.0)

And White, Black, Green, and possibly Blue or Red Dragonspawn. White being utterly broken.

[Gnaeus]

Necropolitan isn't exactly LA.

A necropolitican sounds like an undead who gets elected to the senate.

[Optimystik]

After Complete Psionic I was never quite sure WotC ever did anything on purpose.

I'm convinced that most people who bash that book haven't actually read it, and are just trying to be cool.

Bad PrCs does not mean bad supplement, you know.

[magic9mushroom]

Necropolitan isn't exactly LA.

A necropolitican sounds like an undead who gets elected to the senate.

Necropolitan is basically LA that's automatically bought off.

[SaintRidley]

I'm convinced that most people who bash that book haven't actually read it, and are just trying to be cool.

Bad PrCs does not mean bad supplement, you know.

I don't take issue with the bad PrCs so much as the typographical errors, the incompleteness/illogic in certain feats, the "fixing" of things that didn't need to be fixed, and the poorly written powers.

The book seriously needed to meet an editor. It didn't feel like it did. Felt like a rush job to me.

I honestly get the feeling reading through that book that WotC had the thought process of "Complete Psionic? We haven't given them anything of substance since the XPH. They'll probably accept whatever we give them."

Every other Complete book, even Complete Divine, just felt like they were higher and better quality, like they were actually cared for, like they were intended not to suck. Complete Psionic felt like they didn't really care and just wanted to jam cool stuff in with little thought to actually making it all make sense or work.

The fact that I know they tried to make things balanced and managed to bungle it in so many ways is my main grudge with the book.

I've recently gone back to it to try and figure out ways to salvage some of it and make it really make sense. But I'm busy, so I don't get much time to really look at it and give an effort. All I see is the flaws and I get disheartened again.

[Optimystik]

I'm not denying those problems, but every splat book has incompleteness and typographical errors. Every one of the Completes could use a hefty dose of additional editing.

This opinion:


I honestly get the feeling reading through that book that WotC had the thought process of "Complete Psionic? We haven't given them anything of substance since the XPH. They'll probably accept whatever we give them."

is a prevailing one, and I think the primary reason why the book gets as much backlash as it does. Psionics is a very appealing system, so we were all hoping to get some truly amazing things in that volume - especially since the XPH PrCs weren't all that good either. Instead, we got a host of lackluster ones, godawful feats like the Illithid Heritage line, and Divine Mind/Lurk, the two biggest disappointments in a base class since Monk and Soulknife. So Psionic fans felt quite understandably betrayed by WotC.

I sympathize with your opinion because I share it. Comparing CPsi to CDiv isn't exactly fair though, as CDiv is part of the big 4 (the other 3 being CM, Carc and CSc).

A better comparison would be to CWar, CChamp and CAdv... CPsi is at least on par with those three, and better in many ways. It is not the worst Complete. (Personally, I think either CAdv or CChamp should get that distinction.)


I've recently gone back to it to try and figure out ways to salvage some of it and make it really make sense. But I'm busy, so I don't get much time to really look at it and give an effort. All I see is the flaws and I get disheartened again.

It helps to focus on the positive parts of the book:

Ardent - fantastic flavor, great power and unique mechanics, a trifecta: It feels like more of a success as a "Psionic Cleric" than a Psion does as a "Psionic Wizard."

Soulbow - The best PrC in the book, and the saving grace of the Soulknife;

Anarchic Initiate - the only 10/10 manifesting PrC ever printed, unless you count psionic adaptations of magical PrCs, and theurges;

Erudite - Poor editing aside, the flavor is great and the power is solid, finding a niche between Psion and Wilder, with even more of a wizardly feel;

Synad - A powerful, yet balanced psionic race, and gives you more options as an aberration than just Elan;

Action Manipulation - Thanks to powers like Synchronicity and feats like Linked Power and Metapower, psionics began to finally gain ground on their more powerful arcane cousins;

And there are interesting items, as well.

Those pluses elevate it above some of the others for me.

[magic9mushroom]

Hey, Complete Psionic isn't as bad as Heroes of Horror. Full of typos, a really crappy mechanic, and a PrC that puts Incantatrix to shame.

[SaintRidley]

I never really liked Complete Divine, actually. A lot of it was utterly forgettable or more useful than things should be for balanced play, in my opinion.

But I do understand and appreciate your point, too. I just have a hard time getting through the feelings of betrayal that always comes when I look at the book.

Adventurer and Warrior are both mediocre, but I never felt they were particularly standout in either direction. Champion I haven't really had a chance to peruse too closely.


Heroes of Horror? One of my favourites in 3.5. Beautiful fluff and useful advice. The taint mechanic is iffy, so it's ignorable (which fixes the Tainted Scholar by removing it). Archivist is T1, but very beautifully worked to have its own feel (I love being a nerdy bookworm who actually researches for his church) and yeah, ridiculously powerful. I'd never go into using it without expecting some heavy restrictions on availability of scrolls. And Dread Necromancer is my favourite base class after Warlock.

Really, I tend to ignore the crunch in HoH besides those base classes because the whole point of the book is the fluff.

[Pyro_Azer]

Hey, Complete Psionic isn't as bad as Heroes of Horror. Full of typos, a really crappy mechanic, and a PrC that puts Incantatrix to shame.

And one of, if not the, most powerful base classes without DM intervention. The ability to cast any spell in the game is more than a tad ridiculous.

[magic9mushroom]

And one of, if not the, most powerful base classes without DM intervention. The ability to cast any spell in the game is more than a tad ridiculous.

Eh, it doesn't have as much in the way of OMFGWTFHAX PrCs as Wizard, thanks to actually having class features. Which is nice.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Then let's check the pro-cons here:

Ogre loses:
-Worst reflex and will.
-Worst HP(untill level 14)
-One less feat.
-Two levels behind skill points and horrid mental stats.

Ogre wins:
-Better AC and fortitude.
-Faster and bigger reach, so he can close in the enemy taking less hits.
-MUCH better battlefield control thanks to large size.
-More raw damage thanks to higher STR, despite the loss of BAB.
-Qualifies for large-size special stuff.

So, really, how is the ogre left behind? Two defenses down, two defenses up, he'll reach the enemy faster to make up for the lack of HP and hits hard all the time. His non str skill sucks, ok, but that's your average dumb barbarian for you.

Additional stuff:
Ogre Loses
-1 to hit
-2 to AC (size and dex penalty, both of which lower his touch AC)
-Loss of BaB means he gets iterative attacks starting at a later level (ECL 9)
-'Giant' creature type -> No access to 'Enlarge' spells (but immunity to 'Charm Person', so it's a wash)
-Large size is inconvenient if you have to go through a medium sized city/dungeon/Etc...
-A barb with a potion of Enlarge Person closes the gap even further (albeit for 5 rounds at a time).

It's still a toss up, but the ogre is one of the more forgiving LA races (and pixie's a little nuts).

[Oslecamo]

-1 to hit

+10 str more than makes up for that.



-2 to AC (size and dex penalty, both of which lower his touch AC)

Don't leave home whitout your scintilating scales potion. And well, the wizard with true strike ray doesn't really care much about a -2 diference.



-Loss of BaB means he gets iterative attacks starting at a later level (ECL 9)

True, but that doesn't matter that much if you keep moving and charging.



-Large size is inconvenient if you have to go through a medium sized city/dungeon/Etc...

What was the last time you heard of the druid complaining his pet bear/tiger wouldn't fit somewhere?



-A barb with a potion of Enlarge Person closes the gap even further (albeit for 5 rounds at a time).

Drinking one potion every combat quickly becomes expensive, not to mention you need to waste a precious action doing it. Scintilating scales has a much bigger duration, so you can actualy drink it before combat and make it last several combat inside a dungeon. Also the barbarian's AC gets even worst with this.

[SpikeFightwicky]

+10 str more than makes up for that.


Don't leave home whitout your scintilating scales potion. And well, the wizard with true strike ray doesn't really care much about a -2 diference.


True, but that doesn't matter that much if you keep moving and charging.


What was the last time you heard of the druid complaining his pet bear/tiger wouldn't fit somewhere?


Drinking one potion every combat quickly becomes expensive, not to mention you need to waste a precious action doing it. Scintilating scales has a much bigger duration, so you can actualy drink it before combat and make it last several combat inside a dungeon. Also the barbarian's AC gets even worst with this.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the Ogre is actually one of the decent LA options. I was just adding to your list. Theoretically, an arcane buddy can cast enlarge on you, though you are correct, it's not nearly as good a buff statwise as simply being an ogre (+2 STR as opposed to the +10 STR from being an ogre, but all the penalties for large size -> it sort of coincides with the comment about being large in a medium setting, as in, you can control when you're large or not). Also, in some of my more recent games, large type creatures did have trouble going places (or climbing ropes). I guess it depends on the DM.

[LichPrinceAlim]

Duergar? +1LA...Free Power Points....Adept/Psion/Wilder anyone?

[magic9mushroom]

Duergar? +1LA...Free Power Points....Adept/Psion/Wilder anyone?

Which is actually crap, because you lose power access, ML and even power points (because you get more pp from a level than you do from duergar).

What psionic races are good for is qualifying for psionic feats.

[Flickerdart]

The thing with the ECL system is that it inherently favours weaker races over stronger ones.
1. The designers make a cool monster ability.
2. The ability is strong, so they raise the CR.
3. The CR is high, so they need to add more LA if it is to be playable as a race.
4. The CR is high, so it will face stronger PCs, so it needs more RHD.
5. The result is that you end up paying for something twice: with LA (because the abilities are strong) and with RHD (because the abilities are strong). Monsters balanced for use against PCs can't also be reliably balanced for play unless they start out having class levels to begin with, which is more work for DMs.

[magic9mushroom]

The thing with the ECL system is that it inherently favours weaker races over stronger ones.
1. The designers make a cool monster ability.
2. The ability is strong, so they raise the CR.
3. The CR is high, so they need to add more LA if it is to be playable as a race.
4. The CR is high, so it will face stronger PCs, so it needs more RHD.
5. The result is that you end up paying for something twice: with LA (because the abilities are strong) and with RHD (because the abilities are strong). Monsters balanced for use against PCs can't also be reliably balanced for play unless they start out having class levels to begin with, which is more work for DMs.

Well, they could just have less LA, or am I missing something?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Do you guys think that if LA didn't count against you for level dependent stuff, such as CL,ML, Skill caps, etc? that would make LA more balanced

magic9mushroom: On the other hand psions/and casters are more powerful any ways so you loose a caster level or a manifester level would that not almost balance them out? that is if they want to play a monsterious caster?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Mostly, the LA isn't worth it. Take trolls for instance. With 5 HD and 6 LA (might be the other way around) you can play one at level 11. But they're a CR 5 monster, which will be utterly slaughtered by CR 11 threats.Exactly. If you give the RHD for free (up to LA*2) then ECL6 vs CR6 is much less overwhelming


That annoys me too. LA tends to be too high anyway but the difference between 1 RHD and 2 RHD is huge. It sucks.Even 1RHD for non-humanoids sucks just like 2RHD for humanoids.


The result is that you end up paying for something twice: with LA (because the abilities are strong) and with RHD (because the abilities are strong). Monsters balanced for use against PCs can't also be reliably balanced for play unless they start out having class levels to begin with, which is more work for DMs.Yup. Man I love free RHD


The main problem with LA is that it is flatout unbalanced in 95% of situations. If it doesn't suck outright, half the things with LA are glass cannons at low levels.And at upper levels they can't take casters at all (atleast sometimes they win at lower levels)


And yes Half-minotaur is actually worth the LA. However the other 99% of LA1 templates aren't.

[magic9mushroom]

Do you guys think that if LA didn't count against you for level dependent stuff, such as CL,ML, Skill caps, etc? that would make LA more balanced

magic9mushroom: On the other hand psions/and casters are more powerful any ways so you loose a caster level or a manifester level would that not almost balance them out? that is if they want to play a monsterious caster?

LichPrinceAlim seemed to think that psionic races added power to psionic characters. They do the opposite. Yes, it would make them more balanced/weaker (psionics is tier 2/3, so they're quite balanced already), but that's not the point.

[Flickerdart]

Well, they could just have less LA, or am I missing something?
They could, but you'd have to drop the LA on pretty much everything to +1-3 for anything to be worth it. High LA, which is what this thread is about, doesn't work.

[Oslecamo]

5. The result is that you end up paying for something twice: with LA (because the abilities are strong) and with RHD (because the abilities are strong). Monsters balanced for use against PCs can't also be reliably balanced for play unless they start out having class levels to begin with, which is more work for DMs.

Meh, not really. Like people pointed out, it's kinda random, depending on the humor of the designer when he was writing. Vampire for example has much more LA than CR. It's obscene.

The Jackal from MMV gets 2d6 sneack attack, death attack and some more minor bonus for just +1LA on top of the RHD, making it a pretty sweet deal.

The flying and permanent invisibility of the pixie coupled with the other bonus is well worth the +4 LA.

[magic9mushroom]

They could, but you'd have to drop the LA on pretty much everything to +1-3 for anything to be worth it. High LA, which is what this thread is about, doesn't work.

We are in agreement.

[smellie_hippie]

*admits that he skipped part of the thread discussion*

What about the fact that some people just enjoying playing an unusual race? Drop the stat checks, loss of attack bonus and HP, so on and so forth... and just enjoy the flavor text that inspired you to try and make:

an ogre monk with fists the size of canned hams...

a dryad druid who actually is even in more communion with the trees...

a centaur ranger that gets pissed when the other players try and tie him to the hitching post outside the bar...

or a really really really horny satry bard... :smallamused:

Stat those examples if you want, but pay more attention to the story behind the characters than how far behind they might be in bonuses. IMHO they make for a more entertaining group.

[Flickerdart]

Meh, not really. Like people pointed out, it's kinda random, depending on the humor of the designer when he was writing. Vampire for example has much more LA than CR. It's obscene.

Vampire is a template, has no RHD, and is irrelevant to what I was talking about. And still sucks hard.

[Oslecamo]

Vampire is a template, has no RHD, and is irrelevant to what I was talking about. And still sucks hard.
What doesn't suck is something like greater teleport at will. Having a PC with greater teleport at will before level 10 will easily throw a campaign out of it's tracks, but a lot of low HD monsters have it. High LA is also there to prevent players from picking up certain super strong abilities before they're suposed to have them.

[Flickerdart]

What doesn't suck is something like greater teleport at will. Having a PC with greater teleport at will before level 10 will easily throw a campaign out of it's tracks, but a lot of low HD monsters have it. High LA is also there to prevent players from picking up certain super strong abilities before they're suposed to have them.
I know. It's just that very often, they get over-penalized for those abilities.

[Starbuck_II]

What doesn't suck is something like greater teleport at will. Having a PC with greater teleport at will before level 10 will easily throw a campaign out of it's tracks, but a lot of low HD monsters have it. High LA is also there to prevent players from picking up certain super strong abilities before they're suposed to have them.

Name one without lots of RHD, please?

[Gnaeus]

Name one without lots of RHD, please?

Does "lots" mean under 10? Hound Archon 6RHD Greater Teleport at will, good stats and other stuff.

[sofawall]

Then let's check the pro-cons here:

Ogre loses:
-Worst reflex and will.
-Worst HP(untill level 14)
-One less feat.
-Two levels behind skill points and horrid mental stats.

Ogre wins:
-Better AC and fortitude.
-Faster and bigger reach, so he can close in the enemy taking less hits.
-MUCH better battlefield control thanks to large size.
-More raw damage thanks to higher STR, despite the loss of BAB.
-Qualifies for large-size special stuff.

So, really, how is the ogre left behind? Two defenses down, two defenses up, he'll reach the enemy faster to make up for the lack of HP and hits hard all the time. His non str skill sucks, ok, but that's your average dumb barbarian for you.

Well, when each point of BAB can give 24 or so damage, I'd rather have the BAB.

[Starbuck_II]

Does "lots" mean under 10? Hound Archon 6RHD Greater Teleport at will, good stats and other stuff.

So 6th level is too early, but 12 is okay?
Isn't that a double penalty for 1 nerfed ability?
Remember it can only teleport itself.

You have low hps, but then. All you get a good run away ability. Reminds me of a Monk: sure they can survive but...

[RagnaroksChosen]

Name one without lots of RHD, please?

lets see a ton of demons and devils,Unicorns out of the srd. Im sure there are more if we look into mm3/4/5 and other books...


I wonder if there shoudl be some sort of formula for Spell like abilities and LA.. Like spell level in adjustment...


StarbuckII:

Having been ina group with a hound archon at level 10(using savage species) he had no problem holding his own... (the group sat some where around tier 2-3)

[Gnaeus]

So 6th level is too early, but 12 is okay?
Isn't that a double penalty for 1 nerfed ability?
Remember it can only teleport itself.

I didn't say that it was CRed well, only that it needs CR. I would say it is probably too strong for 8, Probably somewhere between 9 and 11 depending on optimization level. It gets outsider HD which are as good as some class levels. 2 permanent AOE buffs/debuffs (Magic Circle v. Evil and Aura of Menace). DR 10/Evil. Tongues and some other weak spell likes, and some immunities.


l
Having been in a group with a hound archon at level 10(using savage species) he had no problem holding his own... (the group sat some where around tier 2-3)

So my guess is close to right.

[Starbuck_II]

lets see a ton of demons and devils,Unicorns out of the srd. Im sure there are more if we look into mm3/4/5 and other books...


I wonder if there shoudl be some sort of formula for Spell like abilities and LA.. Like spell level in adjustment...


StarbuckII:

Having been ina group with a hound archon at level 10(using savage species) he had no problem holding his own... (the group sat some where around tier 2-3)

There is a difference. You weren't playing level 12: you were playing Savage Species level 10.

In 2 levels he'd get much weaker in comparison (since he'd gain nothing).

Low levels are where racial stuff matters more than HD (since Con is multiplicative).

[RagnaroksChosen]

So my guess is close to right.

Kinda...

Some of the LA/RHD are worth it, adn i think there Balanced. What I wish they had and i think alot of people would agree with me is something similar to savage species for races so that you can play them at lower levels...


I do think there needs to be an easy rule that lets you play monsters at lower levels....

I'd always loved to play an ogre mage at lower level but never been able to.


starbuckII:

I belive he was at 5 RHD at the time (think they gain the last one at 11)
Though having played at 10 and played at 12, the play style is not that much different. like i said he could hold his own...
he was far from a tank but he always contributed... he made a great flank buddy. His DR made up for his lower HP.

[Oslecamo]

Low levels are where racial stuff matters more than HD (since Con is multiplicative).
That depends. Some racial abilities get weaker(like the Drow SLAs), but stuff like ability bonus, size increase and powerfull SLAs remain always usefull.


Also, greater teleport isn't just for running. It's also great for infiltration, obstacle bypassing, just making the enemy run around in circles to keep them busy, seting traps. Combine with a good ranged attack and you have an excellent skirmisher.

As final note, lantern archon has 1HD and greater teleport. The designers didn't even bother to try to make an LA for it.

[Starbuck_II]

I'd peg Lantern Archon as LA +4. The incorporeal nature messes with gear.

[Gnaeus]

As final note, lantern archon has 1HD and greater teleport. The designers didn't even bother to try to make an LA for it.

It's a floating ball of light with no hands. I think we can forgive them. I don't see how you could really play one as a PC in core. A psionic one would be cool though.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It's a floating ball of light with no hands. I think we can forgive them. I don't see how you could really play one as a PC in core. A psionic one would be cool though.

you bring up an idea though..


Should every monster be playable?

[Oslecamo]

I'd peg Lantern Archon as LA +4. The incorporeal nature messes with gear.

Savage species states that you can bypass this by giving your equipment the ghost touch ability for a 10% increase in price.

[Gnaeus]

you bring up an idea though..


Should every monster be playable?

My vote would be for most. Maybe 80%.I would skip things that are unable to alter the environment (lantern archons), mentally unable to be in a party (animals and other attack on sight monsters), or unable to travel.

I would allow things without hands, like pegasi. Maybe with a big "not suitable for all games" warning.


Savage species states that you can bypass this by giving your equipment the ghost touch ability for a 10% increase in price.

It still has no hands, and a carrying capacity of under 3 pounds.

[Flickerdart]

There was a campaign log of a Velociraptor Swordsage a long while back. Good times.

[Bayar]

There was a campaign log of a Velociraptor Swordsage a long while back. Good times.

Reminds me of the raptor wielding a sword image from Rules Compendium (and another book which had rules for monsters wielding weapons that i cannot remember the name).

[ScionoftheVoid]

Reminds me of the raptor wielding a sword image from Rules Compendium (and another book which had rules for monsters wielding weapons that i cannot remember the name).

It appears in Savage Species, IIRC.

I agree with the "LA needs to be looked over and adjusted" thing.

[Runestar]

What about the fact that some people just enjoying playing an unusual race? Drop the stat checks, loss of attack bonus and HP, so on and so forth... and just enjoy the flavor text that inspired you to try and make:
Then why not simply play a reskinned base race?

The point of playing a powerful monster PC is exactly so you can enjoy the various powers and advantages which come with it. But with LA possibly making you too weak to really contribute anything meaningfully to the party, you end up being a liability.

A horny satyr bard may be fun to roleplay and all that, but when you enter your first fight and can't hold your own...

On the issue of high LA, I do think there are some exceptions. Ghaele for instance, I felt it was well worth its LA+10. :smallsmile:

[Dimers]

And White, Black, Green, and possibly Blue or Red Dragonspawn. White being utterly broken.

To the list of viable creatures with LA, I'd add low-HD-animal natural lycanthropes, for most martial and many psionic characters. Physical and Wisdom ability score bonuses, DR, claw/claw/bite-5 or weapon/claw/bite-5 attack routine, alternate movement modes, scent, low-light vision, natural armor increase, and a little more, for +3 LA and an RHD or two.

I'll pre-edit this in a likely-vain attempt to ward off the wails of protest: This is my feeling, based on my preferences. It can't be defined as 'wrong' or 'right'.


I agree with the "LA needs to be looked over and adjusted" thing.

Ditto that.

[Reinboom]

*admits that he skipped part of the thread discussion*

What about the fact that some people just enjoying playing an unusual race? Drop the stat checks, loss of attack bonus and HP, so on and so forth... and just enjoy the flavor text that inspired you to try and make:

an ogre monk with fists the size of canned hams...

a dryad druid who actually is even in more communion with the trees...

a centaur ranger that gets pissed when the other players try and tie him to the hitching post outside the bar...

or a really really really horny satry bard... :smallamused:

Stat those examples if you want, but pay more attention to the story behind the characters than how far behind they might be in bonuses. IMHO they make for a more entertaining group.

With quite a few of the races, its the feeling of "the mechanics have my back". In many of these cases, it's not just the paint job but "I want to regenerate like a troll", "I want the succubus's kiss", or "I want the size of the centaur". And not necessarily just for trying to take advantage of mechanics, but instead just because there can be fun to be had in the mechanics alone.

That said, I believe there is a hefty amount of merit to "paint job" ideas. A minimalist system that tries to penalize the player while trying to capture what they honestly wish to play would be best, in my opinion.

Of course... sometimes these types of arguments break out due to the "deckbuilding"/"johnny" types who exist around here. Those who get annoyed at the mechanics because they would otherwise wish to be able to play with the mechanics if not for them being so badly made.