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Crow
2010-02-11, 01:06 PM
I may have crossed the line last night;

Last night, our level 5 group gained an audience with an evil epic npc that had become a quasi-diety. The group was escorted into the god's domain, and when he showed himself, the guards all kneeled before him.

Knowing that they were here to make a request of this guy, the player characters each took a knee as well...except for one of them. One of the guards whispered to the character "Will you not kneel before our god?", to which the character replied "No."

By now, the diety is wondering why this douche won't take a knee and declares "You shall kneel before me mortal, or I will lay you low.", to which the character again replies very simply "No.".

So at this point, the god follows with "Witness the fate of those who defy me within my own domain.", and proceeds to hit the character with a Finger of Death. The character fails the save (roll came out to a five), and dies on the spot. At this point the rest of the group is doing nothing, and apolagizes for their friend before attempting to make a request of the now slightly irritated diety.

So I feel I may have crossed the line by outright killing the stubborn character, but I am conflicted, as I also don't think it was out of line for an evil god to require respect inside his own house.

What does everyone else think?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 01:11 PM
That's absurd. You shouldn't have killed him, unless the quasi-deity was rather impulsive. Finger of Death isn't painful enough. :smallbiggrin:

Altima
2010-02-11, 01:12 PM
If anything you're not being vindictive enough. Personally, I do think it was a bad idea to outright kill the character, though I can understand if a paladin or cleric of a rival deity did not kneel.

Still, if all he did was kill the character, who would care about it? His guards are already pious enough, and the PCs, well, don't care and are only brown nosing to get a favor.

I think it would have been a better idea to maim the character in some way. Perhaps a specific curse that can only be removed with an Atonement spell (Mark of Justice/Inequity?) or something along those lines. Or the deity could simply hack off a limb, burn his symbol into said character's forehead, and call it a day.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-11, 01:13 PM
In my personal opinion, your decision to punish the character was correct, but your method was incorrect.

The BBEG-type should have simply inflicted incredible pain on them, or cursed them, or simply done something HORRIBLE to them that left them alive to actually suffer the consequences of their actions. Cheesy? Yes. Less prone to cause fits of anger than killing a PC during a diplomatic encounter? Yes.

illyrus
2010-02-11, 01:18 PM
In my mind it depends on why he did it. Was he a devout follower of an opposed god? Was he just being a jerk? Was he playing the "_____ bow before no man" character?

Was he annoyed at that turn of events? I've had situations like that in the past where I've played a character type that would not kneel before anyone but agents of his diety and would only nod his head as a sign of respect for another's station or power. Then again I was perfectly fine with that character being destroyed and making up a new character.

I'm personally not a big fan of having the PCs interact with the divine directly for reasons such as this and will only use agents of the gods such as a mortal priest or an angel/demon/devil/whatever.

*Edit - Actually as a note I'd be more annoyed with longlasting curses or whatnot than simple death. From your explanation the player seemed rather calm in what he was doing and going way overboard would be seen as the DM being vindictive instead of the god. Now if the PC in question started with a string of "your mom" jokes or other childish behavior that would be different.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-11, 01:21 PM
I would say it wasn't something bad. I would have toyed with him first mabye given him one more chance but i don't know any thing about your quasi diety so i can't realy give a fair assesment.


Though from a simulationist point of view you did nothing wrong.

Crow
2010-02-11, 01:23 PM
General consensus is that he was just being a jerk. The character was a neutral (evil-leaning) rogue.

I guess I could have just maimed him, but most of the players in my group would be more angry about a maiming than a death. Plus the god had a nice-sized community around him that worshipped him, and I felt he was the type of guy who wouldn't want any signs that he could be defied. Even a maimed character still walking tall around town sends out the message "Yeah, I said screw that guy, and lived!".

JeenLeen
2010-02-11, 01:26 PM
I think a line was crossed because the punishment seems to be something a level 5 group cannot fix. I would be annoyed if my DM put me in a situation where my character would be unable to hold to his views and live. A curse or even a Geas is reasonable, a burden the PC must bear for his code. At that level, death is too severe.

I suppose you could argue that the character could have explained himself: "I acknowledge your power and do not mean to show disrespect. However, my code/god/etc does not allow me to show deference in that form." Diplomacy roll, if you want to add some randomness.

Now, if the player was just being a jerk or being stupid--stubborn without a reason--than it's more reasonable. I had one game where the group was insistent on learning about different quests than those the DM was giving us; the DM said we found out about a large dragon in a mountain that someone wanted dead. We were about level 8, and it was obvious the dragon was far beyond our powers. But if we had gone, we'd have all died, quite fairly. But our stupidity or brashness would have earned it.

Edit: wrote this before seeing the OP's second post. Depends on the group and player. Would they be more annoyed with a Geas they have to carry out and want to just reroll, or more annoyed at losing a character?

The rogue, if he wanted to be a jerk, could have bluffed around it. That does sound like player stupidity, not realizing the situation he is in and thus... well, dying for it.

Asheram
2010-02-11, 01:27 PM
General consensus is that he was just being a jerk. The character was a neutral (evil-leaning) rogue.

I guess I could have just maimed him, but most of the players in my group would be more angry about a maiming than a death. Plus the god had a nice-sized community around him that worshipped him, and I felt he was the type of guy who wouldn't want any signs that he could be defied. Even a maimed character still walking tall around town sends out the message "Yeah, I said screw that guy, and lived!".

I would've loved to see the expression of the player... Oh well. Time to add insult to injury by animating the dead players body and have him scrub the floors of your temples. (Btw, would be a nice touch to have him open the door the next time that the party comes visiting)

Beside. If you stand before a malevolent entity with unimaginable powers and is disrespectful... Well... Bad things Will come your way.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-11, 01:28 PM
If I was an evil mortal who pulled enough strings and stepped on enough bodies to become an evil God, and some mortal would diss me in my own domain, my first choice would be to kill them too. You did fine. I mean, the rest of the party found this death to be quite expected, given the event that led to it, didn't they?

Prime32
2010-02-11, 01:29 PM
I would have reduced him to a mass of screaming flesh which spends every second of its life in unimaginable agony, and turned him back with a snap of my fingers if anyone asked for mercy.

Altima
2010-02-11, 01:30 PM
General consensus is that he was just being a jerk. The character was a neutral (evil-leaning) rogue.

I guess I could have just maimed him, but most of the players in my group would be more angry about a maiming than a death. Plus the god had a nice-sized community around him that worshipped him, and I felt he was the type of guy who wouldn't want any signs that he could be defied. Even a maimed character still walking tall around town sends out the message "Yeah, I said screw that guy, and lived!".

It's hard to walk tall without one or more legs. I think it is physically impossible to waddle tall. Or be carried around by another PC-tall.

But, anyway, this is a classic example of a silly character doing silly things that will get himself killed.

Lysander
2010-02-11, 01:34 PM
I don't think you were out of line if it's clear the guy did in fact have divine power. You could have gone with something less fatal perhaps like a Baleful Polymorph, and let the party worry about turning him back later.

sheltem
2010-02-11, 01:36 PM
BoVD, page 110:

3rd level spell Wrack:

The subject is wracked with such pain that he doubles over and collapses (so much for getting him on his knees). His face and hands blister and drip fluid, and his eyes cloud with blood, rendering him blind. For the duration (1round/lvl, which an epic demi-god should have plenty of) of the spell the subject is considered helpless and cannot take actions. [...] Even after the spell ends, the subject is still visibly shaken and takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saves and checks for 3d10 minutes.

That's what popped into my mind reading the original situation. :smallwink:

BooNL
2010-02-11, 01:43 PM
I would've loved to see the expression of the player... Oh well. Time to add insult to injury by animating the dead players body and have him scrub the floors of your temples. (Btw, would be a nice touch to have him open the door the next time that the party comes visiting)

Beside. If you stand before a malevolent entity with unimaginable powers and is disrespectful... Well... Bad things Will come your way.

Love it!

That said, I think you did the right thing. Look at it this way, if the quasi-godthing has taken the time to cast a geas/horribly maim/mark of whatever him, that would mean he cared enough about the character.

He didn't. The character was like a fly to him. You don't go around poking off the wings of every fly either, you just swat it.

Maloric
2010-02-11, 01:55 PM
Given the situation, I think your actions are entirely appropriate. You gave the player ample opportunity to change his mind and he should have been punished for his impudence.

Personally, as a DM I would have cursed the disobedient character with something along the lines of Wither Limb (pg 72 of Libris Mortis), so that he falls prone in front of the god. Then if he wants to be able to walk again, have him complete some lowly and humiliating job like cleaning out the sewers, with a toothbrush, as an example to all that would defy the god. Mind you, I have been told I'm a sadist. Death is too easy.

Of course some excellent diplomacy checks and due groveling/butt kissing might convince the god to grant the character the use of his legs, before he's sent to clean the sewers.

vicente408
2010-02-11, 02:00 PM
The most important thing is, how do the players feel about it? Is the player upset that his character was killed? Does the party think it was unfair, or that it was justified by being in-character for the bad guy?

Crow
2010-02-11, 02:05 PM
The player who's character died is a little butt-hurt about it. The rest of the group is a bit bummed at losing an ally, but agrees that he earned his fate.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 02:05 PM
Look at it this way, if the quasi-godthing has taken the time to cast a geas/horribly maim/mark of whatever him, that would mean he cared enough about the character.

If I were a quasi-godthing, I'd make my default attack HORRIBLE TORTURE rather than DEATH. A spell is a spell, after all, and the former option offers more flexibility.
But what's done is done. The next IC course of action would be to animate the corpse, but I'm not sure how well the OP's PCs would take that.

Lysander
2010-02-11, 02:10 PM
What would also be appropriate is something like Nybor's Joyful Voyage. Teleports your victim target 1d100 miles in a random direction.

Player: I will not bow!
*Poof*
DM: Okay, so you're now standing by yourself in the middle of a swamp...

Asheram
2010-02-11, 02:23 PM
The player who's character died is a little butt-hurt about it. The rest of the group is a bit bummed at losing an ally, but agrees that he earned his fate.

Then it's alright. He ******* up and paid for it, and as long as everyone involved agrees and accepts this then you've done nothing wrong.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 02:28 PM
You should have had the evil god use Disintegrate instead of FoD. It looks cooler.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-11, 02:32 PM
You should have had the evil god use Disintegrate instead of FoD. It looks cooler.A handful of dust does not a good zombie make.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 02:32 PM
A handful of dust does not a good zombie make.

It makes a better example, though.

Riffington
2010-02-11, 02:40 PM
You had the guards whisper to him, and then the deity asked him. I think that for most evil deities, that's a little more warning than usual.

Seriously, what did he think would happen? A fine?

Choco
2010-02-11, 02:49 PM
You had the guards whisper to him, and then the deity asked him. I think that for most evil deities, that's a little more warning than usual.

Seriously, what did he think would happen? A fine?

Naw, this is a PC we are talking about, PC's are ABOVE any sort of social requirements and standards! He probably just assumed he would be ignored.

I have had to do similar things before, almost always to show the players of Chaotic Stupid characters that they can't just do whatever they want without consequence.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-11, 02:55 PM
True story: years ago, I was with a roleplaying group who just came in to see the Evil Theocrat of Something or Other. I mean, the guy was eeeeevil! As we came in, he was just finishing punishing one of his men-at-arms by cutting off his tongue. Why? We don't know ... he was eeeeevil!

Anyway, he shoves the bloodied victim away, and turns to us: "What do you want, filthy dogs?"
Smart-ass player: "We just came to say hello, filthy cat."

The room went silent. You could hear every breath. Or rather, you could have heard every breath, if someone was actually breathing. A minute or so later, the DM obviously caved in and decided to cater for the players. He had the Theocrat mutter something, and essentially let us go with a warning. That was more than 10 years ago, but I still remember the utter dissatisfaction we all felt. I mean, come on, the guy was eeeeevil!

juggalotis
2010-02-11, 02:56 PM
personally i hate this sort of behavior. but if it was for roleplay purpose instead of being a **** i probobly would have given him a severe warning along the lines of the character losing an eye by some magical means to which it could never be replaced, subsequently id give him a permanent penealty to something like spot check due to the loss. then give him one more chance to bow. then if he doesnt he knew the risks.

Saph
2010-02-11, 02:57 PM
I think I would have used Power Word Kill instead. Gets the message across more thoroughly.

The Wrack and Wither Limb suggestions are good too, depending on his mood. Whichever, there is absolutely no way that he would let the PC get away with it. Evil deities do not take lip from mortals.

So yeah, you did the right thing. Remember that in situations like this every other player is watching the DM very closely to see what you do. If the deity had let the PC off, the rest of the party would have lost all respect for him instantly.

Ravens_cry
2010-02-11, 03:28 PM
It makes a better example, though.

I am sorry but I have to disagree. Having the body waddle around everytime the party nips in for a spot of tea is a GREAT example.

Lysander
2010-02-11, 03:39 PM
You could however, choose to make the super-evil-deity-guy's reaction mirth instead of anger.

"Muahaha! What a proud little ant!"

*CASTS SUGGESTION*

"Behave like the bug you are."

The PC then spends the next day crawling on the floor pretending to be an insect.

BooNL
2010-02-11, 03:47 PM
You could however, choose to make the super-evil-deity-guy's reaction mirth instead of anger.

"Muahaha! What a proud little ant!"

*CASTS SUGGESTION*

"Behave like the bug you are."

The PC then spends the next day crawling on the floor pretending to be an insect.

Which again proves that the god cares enough about the rogue to do that in the first place. He doesn't. The rogue doesn't want to bow? Fine, here's a finger of death while I watch your friends grovel and offer me more for their request.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-11, 03:51 PM
Evil God disrespected? And this being is really quasi-divine? All he responds with is a finger of death? He doesn't have a much more painful spell that makes the person's skin bubble off or the like? Got off easy.

And yes, I don't care if you are chaotic neutral or chaotic evil. Not bowing in that circumstance is stupid. Minimal verisimilitude requires this sort of result.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 03:52 PM
Ya, suggestion is too much work. You have to choose a suggestion. A spell like Wrack (I repeat: not Finger of Death, that's not enough of a spectacle) is something you can just thoughtlessly fire.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-11, 03:54 PM
ya but torturing the victum is just poor... as a pc if my character gets tourchered it just gives me more out of game justification for killing him or disrespecting him it doesn't actualy do any thing... he got killed.
Eaither way the PC could get raised.

hamishspence
2010-02-11, 03:55 PM
A quote from a Disney movie provides a possible line for a more predatory Evil deity- maybe a druid.

"You have spirit for one so small. Such spirit is deserving of a sporting chance. I'm going to close my eyes and count to ten. This will make the chase more interesting- for me. One, two, three, four..."

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 03:58 PM
A quote from a Disney movie provides a possible line for a more predatory Evil deity- maybe a druid.

"You have spirit for one so small. Such spirit is deserving of a sporting chance. I'm going to close my eyes and count to ten. This will make the chase more interesting- for me. One, two, three, four..."

You're giving him too much attention. World doesn't revolve around the PCs and all that.

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 04:00 PM
You don't get to be an epic demigod without at least casually skimming the Overlord List. Don't let people hold grudges against you - kill them first.

hamishspence
2010-02-11, 04:01 PM
Evil can be capricious, after all. And not bowing when ordered to, is going to increase the level of interest somewhat.

That said- even the least aggressive evil deity is going to want to do something nasty.

Asheram
2010-02-11, 04:17 PM
Evil can be capricious, after all. And not bowing when ordered to, is going to increase the level of interest somewhat.

That said- even the least aggressive evil deity is going to want to do something nasty.

Hehe. I can see it in front of me.

*Finger of death*
... Oh dear, this'll set a bad example... I should've tormented the guy first. Oh well...

Lysander
2010-02-11, 04:43 PM
Maybe suggestion is the wrong tact. How about this:

*Dominate Person*
Evil Lord: Bow.
*PC bows*
Evil Lord: He'll be staying here as my servant.
*turns to other PCs*
Evil Lord: Now what did you want to talk about?

Then unless the party makes any move to free the PC, you tell the player that they can either roll a new character or spend the rest of the game being told how the character cleans the privies for the rest of their life.

Altima
2010-02-11, 06:29 PM
It could have been worse. It could have been a bored evil deity. Ick, that would have been messy.

Just out of curiousity, what is this evil quasi-deity a god of? If it was something like plague and disease, I think you missed a great opportunity for misfortune.

If he WAS the god of misfortune, well, that's sorta just asking for it.

Crow
2010-02-11, 07:47 PM
He was a god of uncharted waters, having been an infamous pirate/privateer in his mortal life.

I flavored the finger of death as drawing all of the moisture out of the disrespectful character's body in a very short period of time. It started with rapid signs of dehydration, and rapidly progressed to dry, cracking skin, so on and so on until he died.

vanyell
2010-02-11, 08:11 PM
Personally, I would animate the body, then order it to walk from one side of the deity's compound, bowing every second step. for eternity. that's not only swatting the fly, it's also giving a strong example.

Dimers
2010-02-11, 08:11 PM
Anyway, he shoves the bloodied victim away, and turns to us: "What do you want, filthy dogs?"
Smart-ass player: "We just came to say hello, filthy cat."

I think if I'd been in that situation, I would've ruled that the theocrat paused for a moment, blinking, and then laughed uproariously and put his arm around the smartypants.

It's sorta like the description for GURPS 3rd-ed Intimidation skill: "The exact result of a successful foll depends on the target. An honest citizen will probably cooperate, sullenly or with false cheer. A low-life may lick your boots (even becoming genuinely loyal). A really tough sort may not be frightened, but may react well anyway: 'You're my kind of scum!'"

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-11, 11:17 PM
Evil deities do not take lip from mortals.
Oh, I really think that that depends on the evil deity. Some evil gods might not care how mortals treat them. Others might respect boldness over caution.

This evil god, however, clearly demands respect, as the thread title says. He clearly explained what he requires of visitors and the consequences of defying him, and then he followed through. All very reasonable. I'm getting a very Lawful Evil sort of vibe from him.

Wracking impudent mortals with pain of lopping off their limbs or whatever would also be appropriate, but that's up to him. I don't feel that it was out of line to have the god kill the PC, since the PC was given an explicit warning. And no one made him come along to this meeting in the first place, presumably.

I don't think that it was bad roleplaying on the player's part, either, though. Perfectly valid to have a character who won't kneel down before a tyrant. But if you're going to play a character who's fearless or reckless or what have you, it should be done with the understanding that his attitude might get him killed, and then maybe you won't be able to play that character any more. Nothing wrong with a character who does dangerous things; but you can't reasonably demand that the DM take the danger away. If you choose to play a character with a personality that makes for a low life expectancy, then you should be prepared to deal with the consequences of that choice.

Dyllan
2010-02-12, 12:27 AM
BoVD, page 110:

3rd level spell Wrack:

The subject is wracked with such pain that he doubles over and collapses (so much for getting him on his knees). His face and hands blister and drip fluid, and his eyes cloud with blood, rendering him blind. For the duration (1round/lvl, which an epic demi-god should have plenty of) of the spell the subject is considered helpless and cannot take actions. [...] Even after the spell ends, the subject is still visibly shaken and takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saves and checks for 3d10 minutes.

That's what popped into my mind reading the original situation. :smallwink:

How about Persistent Spell applied to that...

24 hours of such pain... that'll teach him. Just one 9th level slot.

Falconer
2010-02-12, 12:47 AM
I agree that the whole affair makes sense. If it was indeed perfectly within the PC's nature to refuse to bow before an eeeeevil god, that's all well and good. It's also well and good that, having had the patience to explain the penalty for not bowing, the quasi-deity followed through with the punishment.

The question is more in how the player reacted. If he was genuinely attempting to roleplay, rather than just being stupid/contrary, i'd arrange for a "second chance" of some sort, if only because of potential plot points. The quasi-god resurrects the PC? Turns out the PC is now secretly an agent of his, or something like that.

sheltem
2010-02-12, 06:02 AM
How about Persistent Spell applied to that...

24 hours of such pain... that'll teach him. Just one 9th level slot.

That's even better. And it would give our evil Overlord a whole day to come up with all sorts of creative punishments. If someone not bowing to him would interest him long enough to warrant another action beyond 24 hours of unbearable pain.

Farlion
2010-02-12, 06:15 AM
You warned him twice, you can't do more. Any other solution than just killing him might be more amusing, but would also cost more time. Obviously, the demi-diety didn't have time to waste at the moment, so finger of death is a good option.

Somehow I envy you for your consistency in this matter, I would like to be a harscher DM but somehow, I'm just too nice to players. :smallbiggrin:

Cheers,
Farlion