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magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 01:08 PM
This thread is for listing encounters that are far more dangerous than their CR would indicate.

I'll start with a CR 7 Wizard 5/Tainted Scholar 2. (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.frp.dnd/browse_thread/thread/dac31a3776a8b4c3?pli=1)

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 01:13 PM
Kobold Adept 4; CR 1. 4d4 Burning Hands, 4d6 Scorching Ray, etc.

Glimbur
2010-02-11, 01:17 PM
Monstrous Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a).

jiriku
2010-02-11, 01:28 PM
Hobgoblin Warsoul, from MMV. CR 8, and it casts as a 9th level wizard, has 10 monstrous humanoid hit dice (with the accompanying d8 hit die, full BAB, and two good saves), and has a couple of useful special qualities to boot.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 01:31 PM
There's some wraith-like thing that's immune to most non-magical attacks at a CR that's too low to assume magic weapons. I remember it from a thread a long time ago.

Also, warhorse, or something like that. Or... some horse. There's a horse that's a CR 1/2, I believe, but would almost definitely kick the butts of a 1st level party.

Sorry that I'm being vague, I've never actually owned a monster manual.

unre9istered
2010-02-11, 01:34 PM
There are a lot of creatures I used to think were over powered before I started reading this board. Mostly from the MMIII like the Cadaver Collector and 10-Headed Shrieking Terror. Now I'm not sure, but they both still seem more powerful than other things at their CR.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 01:34 PM
There's some wraith-like thing that's immune to most non-magical attacks at a CR that's too low to assume magic weapons. I remember it from a thread a long time ago.

You wouldn't be talking about a Shadow, would you?

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-11, 01:36 PM
Horrid Wolves: 57 HP, AC 19, Bite:2d6+10+2d6 acid, CR 4

unre9istered
2010-02-11, 01:37 PM
You wouldn't be talking about a Shadow, would you?

Didn't think of that, I've had a TPK from them for the reason he mentions (no magic weapons). Most of our DM's know better than to hit us with incorporeal creatures in an enclosed space when we don't have magic weapons now. We couldn't even run away because we fell into a sinkhole that opened up underneath us.

Pyro_Azer
2010-02-11, 01:37 PM
Certain dragons fall into this.

Crow
2010-02-11, 01:40 PM
Shadows and Greater Shadows are pretty beefy for their CR.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 01:42 PM
Shadows and Greater Shadows are pretty beefy for their CR.

In a game last year, my DM saw fit to hit us with an advanced Shadow at level 1. Thank god I had rebuking and rolled insanely high on it...

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 01:44 PM
While shadows are indeed rough, your cleric/bard/wizard should be preparing Magic Weapon at low levels anyway.

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 01:45 PM
Horrid Wolves: 57 HP, AC 19, Bite:2d6+10+2d6 acid, CR 4

That sounds about right to me. It's a little strong, but not horrible in unoptimised play, unless there's more to it.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-11, 01:45 PM
It mostly depends on the party, but my nutty DM said a Purple Worm was a fair challenge for 4 3rd level characters. Right....

Crow
2010-02-11, 01:45 PM
While shadows are indeed rough, your cleric/bard/wizard should be preparing Magic Weapon at low levels anyway.

Still a 50% miss chance.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 01:48 PM
While shadows are indeed rough, your cleric/bard/wizard should be preparing Magic Weapon at low levels anyway.

We didn't have any of those. I was playing a Dread Necromancer//Warlock, and the other guy was playing a Psion//Wilder IIRC.

Oh, and the houserules the DM was using meant we each had a statblock of 4 11s and 2 12s.

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-11, 01:49 PM
Still a 50% miss chance.

I think he means magic missile.

tyckspoon
2010-02-11, 01:49 PM
While shadows are indeed rough, your cleric/bard/wizard should be preparing Magic Weapon at low levels anyway.

Which eats up one of their actions to cast it, one of the slots they could have used on something else (opportunity costs suck for low-level casters), and still leaves you dealing with a 50% miss chance to hit an incorporeal enemy. Incorporeal enemies remain tough to deal with until you can reliably use ghost touch or Force attacks.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 01:51 PM
Plantears (SIC). Cleric casting at CL 20th as a CR 16?

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 01:52 PM
It reads like something you could handle as long as you can hit it regularly, so if it can abuse solid objects or you don't have magic weapons, you'd be in serious trouble.


Even so, I think it's a good call. If you're equipped to deal with incorporeality, it's no worse than a CR 3 monster should be.

Assigning a value to the blanket immunities granted by incorporeality is pretty futile.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 01:56 PM
It reads like something you could handle as long as you can hit it regularly, so if it can abuse solid objects or you don't have magic weapons, you'd be in serious trouble.

As long as you're properly equipped, it's no more threat than any other CR 3 monster as far as I can tell. I don't think it's a bad call. There is no way any CR system could successfully handle anything that big.

Problem is that things like Shadows excessively favour the high-tier classes. The tier 1 classes can handle it, but not the others.

Superglucose
2010-02-11, 01:57 PM
Planetars.

They're 17th level clerics with a host of abilities and good reflex saves... at CR 16?

Optimystik
2010-02-11, 02:00 PM
Which eats up one of their actions to cast it, one of the slots they could have used on something else (opportunity costs suck for low-level casters), and still leaves you dealing with a 50% miss chance to hit an incorporeal enemy. Incorporeal enemies remain tough to deal with until you can reliably use ghost touch or Force attacks.

Thing is, if you're up against shadows, not much is going to be useful in first-level slots except Expeditious Retreat. Magic Missile won't come online until much later.

I'm not saying they're not hard, just that they're not impossible either.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 02:02 PM
Plantears (SIC). Cleric casting at CL 20th as a CR 16?

Does (sic) mean that they horribly misspelled Planetars, or that they intended to make a monster called Plantears?

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 02:02 PM
Problem is that things like Shadows excessively favour the high-tier classes. The tier 1 classes can handle it, but not the others.

It's not something that should have a higher CR, it's something that should have been better documented. Once you can deal with it, it's a CR 3 monster.

Otherwise, you end up giving people experience that they haven't done anything to earn, because the monster doesn't have blanket immunities to everything while it's fighting a 5th or 6th level party.


Planetars.

They're 17th level clerics with a host of abilities and good reflex saves... at CR 16?

Sounds good if they don't go for full optimisation, I think. A CR 16 monster should be significantly stronger than a level 16 party.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 02:03 PM
Thing is, if you're up against shadows, not much is going to be useful in first-level slots except Expeditious Retreat. Magic Missile won't come online until much later.

I'm not saying they're not hard, just that they're not impossible either.

I still think an advanced Shadow was insane overkill for a weak level 1 party. But that's neither here nor there. :smallbiggrin:

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 02:07 PM
Would I inadvertantly start another debate if I suggested Beholders were a bit on the strong side of that CR?

tyckspoon
2010-02-11, 02:07 PM
Even so, I think it's a good call. If you're equipped to deal with incorporeality, it's no worse than a CR 3 monster should be.


I was going to disagree, but I took a quick look at what is actually in CR 3 and holy crap is that an unfriendly level. Wights, Ghasts, Allips, Cockatrices, Ogres.. the only reason the Shadow doesn't stand out is that CR 3 is stuffed with "screw you" monsters that throw out attacks a level 3 party should not reasonably have to deal with (Ogres may seem out of place on that list, but they are much tougher and hit harder and more accurately than most level 3 warrior-types that would be expected to stand up to them.)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 02:11 PM
Sounds good if they don't go for full optimisation, I think. A CR 16 monster should be significantly stronger than a level 16 party.

Actually, it should be much weaker. A CR 20 monster should be as strong as a level 16 party (50-50 odds).

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 02:18 PM
I was going to disagree, but I took a quick look at what is actually in CR 3 and holy crap is that an unfriendly level. Wights, Ghasts, Allips, Cockatrices, Ogres.. the only reason the Shadow doesn't stand out is that CR 3 is stuffed with "screw you" monsters that throw out attacks a level 3 party should not reasonably have to deal with (Ogres may seem out of place on that list, but they are much tougher and hit harder and more accurately than most level 3 warrior-types that would be expected to stand up to them.)

Most monsters in the monster manual are intentionally more powerful than a PC of level equal to their CR. That's basically because four PCs working together carry a lot more weight than four PCs visiting the monster one at a time.

As far as CR is concerned, the shadow isn't incorporeal and has 38 hitpoints. It can mess around a party quite a lot even without that.

Allips and cockatrices are also one-trick ponies. I'm assuming that they were dropped in CR 3 for the same reason - that's their weight class.

Boiling everything about a monster down to a single number is hard, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for major 'tricks' like this to be left out of the CR calculations as long as it's documented.


Actually, it should be much weaker. A CR 20 monster should be as strong as a level 16 party (50-50 odds).

I meant character. As I said, neglect the fact that clerics are vastly overpowered, and a CR 16 monster with 17th level cleric casting seems reasonable.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-11, 02:22 PM
I had a lot of fun with a Troll Were-Tyranosaurus (CR 10). Boatloads of HP with DR and regen.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 02:26 PM
Most monsters in the monster manual are intentionally more powerful than a PC of level equal to their CR. That's basically because four PCs working together carry a lot more weight than four PCs visiting the monster one at a time.

That's... not how it's supposed to work. The monster's meant to be about equal to a character of that level. Remember that the cutoff between Very Difficult and Overpowering is at CR = ECL + 4, which is equivalent to 4 monsters each of CR = party level.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-11, 02:36 PM
I once had to solo (I was a duergar adept/cleric/Holy Mind (homebrew prc)) a Half-Black Dragon Troll/Warhulk....CR 14 my [censored]!!!

Gnaeus
2010-02-11, 02:36 PM
A lot of animal types are CRed strangely, especially with templates on them. You wind up with monsters that either completely eat your party one character at a time, or get crushed by simple tactics like everyone flies up in the air and shoots it until it dies.

I have TPKed a party who regularly beat over CR monsters completely by accident with dire tigers. My own party was almost near TPKed by them this weekend (the flyer would have escaped) except that they kept rolling 1s on their bite and one of them failed a key save.

mikej
2010-02-11, 02:39 PM
Fleshraker Dinosaur [ MM III ] is pretty tough for a CR2 in my opinion. Also thier description indicates they prefer to hunt in packs. I think a bunch would be a serious threat. Although, I like them as Animal Companions :smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 02:46 PM
The monster's meant to be about equal to a character of that level. Remember that the cutoff between Very Difficult and Overpowering is at CR = ECL + 4, which is equivalent to 4 monsters each of CR = party level.

That's not how it should work, it's not how it could work, and it's not how it does work. When CR was introduced, the only implication that that was the case was one sentence about NPCs which was not substantiated anywhere else, in a book that was massively rushed, and quite simply, not written to the standard it should have been. Because the original designers weren't consulted on the update, this somehow managed to end up being propagated throughout the 3.5 books despite being wrong.

A monster of a given CR is a challenge for four characters of about that level. Not an even fight for one guy, but a challenge for four.

Since the monster is only getting one turn for every four turns its opponents get, it's not challenging anything unless its turns carry more weight.

olentu
2010-02-11, 02:47 PM
I recall the adamantine horror being rather annoying for its level if one is not prepared.

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 02:50 PM
I recall the adamantine horror being rather annoying for its level if one is not prepared.
How, pray tell, do you prepare against at-will Disintegrate and Disjunction as early as level 5? The Horror is CR9, IIRC.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 02:50 PM
That's not how it should work, it's not how it could work, and it's not how it does work. When CR was introduced, the only implication that that was the case was one sentence about NPCs which was not substantiated anywhere else.

A monster of a given CR is a challenge for four characters of about that level. Not an even fight for one guy, but a challenge for four.

Since the monster is only getting one turn for every four turns its opponents get, it's not challenging anything unless its turns carry more weight.

A challenge, not an even fight. You don't generally lose party members to a CR-even fight (barring what this thread is discussing). CR = party level + 4 is supposed to be an even fight where it could go either way. CR > party level + 4 is "If you fight, you'll lose".

olentu
2010-02-11, 02:56 PM
How, pray tell, do you prepare against at-will Disintegrate and Disjunction as early as level 5? The Horror is CR9, IIRC.

Very carefully.


That being said I recall them having a vulnerability to some low level spell or another but then again I might be remembering the vulnerability as more debilitating then it actually is.

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 03:01 PM
A challenge, not an even fight. You don't generally lose party members to a CR-even fight (barring what this thread is discussing). CR = party level + 4 is supposed to be an even fight where it could go either way. CR > party level + 4 is "If you fight, you'll lose".

That's something different.

It's a challenge for four characters (on it's own, with an even playing field). That means it should be weaker than four characters all together.

But four characters working together are much stronger than four characters separated. That goes without saying.

A simple fight between one PC-classed humanoid and four of the same equates to one PC-classed humanoid being unable to do anything while three PC-classed humanoids mop the floor with him.

Grumman
2010-02-11, 03:04 PM
That's not how it should work, it's not how it could work, and it's not how it does work.
You have no idea what you're talking about:

An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to the NPC's level.
That means a character of level X with less equipment is a CR X opponent. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a creature with a CR equal to the party level is supposed to be equal to one, not four, adventurers.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 03:07 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about:

That means a character of level X with less equipment is a CR X opponent. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a creature with a CR equal to the party level is supposed to be equal to one, not four, adventurers.

THIS. char limit

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 03:08 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about:

That means a character of level X with less equipment is a CR X opponent. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a creature with a CR equal to the party level is supposed to be equal to one, not four, adventurers.

On the contrary, I can figure out things for myself instead of trusting one sentence that clearly contradicts nearly every monster in the monster manual.

This is common sense. Four people working together are more than the sum of their parts.

Nowhere do the rules imply that that's anything but true. Your conclusion doesn't follow.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 03:12 PM
On the contrary, I can figure out things for myself instead of trusting one sentence that clearly contradicts nearly every monster in the monster manual.

This is common sense. Four people working together are more than the sum of their parts.

Nowhere do the rules imply that that's anything but true. Your conclusion doesn't follow.

Four people working together are more than the sum of their parts. How is this at odds with a monster of CR equal to the party level being roughly equivalent to one party member in a fight, assuming balance?

Eurus
2010-02-11, 03:24 PM
Revived Fossil (Libris Mortis) baboon.

26 hit points. 24 AC (11 touch, 21 flat-footed). Two claw attacks at 2d6+2 each, +2 to hit. DR 10/adamantine, immunity to cold. Combat Reflexes, which isn't much use, but undead immunities are very nice.

Challenge rating 1. Yeah, no. A level one party should conceivably be able to take down two of the dang things. Short of turning, you're not touching it.

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 03:24 PM
Four people working together are more than the sum of their parts. How is this at odds with a monster of CR equal to the party level being roughly equivalent to one party member in a fight, assuming balance?

Because if you're in an otherwise even four on one fight, you aren't going to 'challenge' anything. Five such encounters certainly won't wipe a party out.

Take the planetar we're arguing about. If it's limited to the same cleric spells the party gets, then you could potentially defeat it by simply counterspelling every spell it casts. Your traditional party can also break out a few dispel magics to cancel out any spells it had cast before hand.

It's basically incapable of doing anything against badly-played opponents.

If you separate out the resources like hitpoints that defend from attacks and the ones used in attacking, you find that a four-on-one fight uses about a sixteenth of the party's defensive resources on average. Not many classes have any real limits to their attacking resources.

NPCs are famous for being hopelessly over-CR'd, so it seems odd to put much stock in the line saying that monsters should be exactly equal to NPCs.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 03:27 PM
Very carefully.


That being said I recall them having a vulnerability to some low level spell or another but then again I might be remembering the vulnerability as more debilitating then it actually is.

No such vulnerability. And it also has Destruction at will. Yeah, that thing's CR is eff'ed up so hard the writer needs to be shot.

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 03:31 PM
No such vulnerability. And it also has Destruction at will. Yeah, that thing's CR is eff'ed up so hard the writer needs to be shot.

I haven't read it, but it sounds like another 'puzzle monster' that's CR 9 because a party equipped to deal with it would see it as a CR 9 monster.

If it isn't, then yes, the writer needs to be shot. Although I'd shoot writers for not documenting monsters properly in any event.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 03:32 PM
Because if you're in an otherwise even four on one fight, you aren't going to 'challenge' anything. Five such encounters certainly won't wipe a party out.

Take the planetar we're arguing about. If it's limited to the same cleric spells the party gets, then you could potentially defeat it by simply counterspelling every spell it casts. Your traditional party can also break out a few dispel magics to cancel out any spells it had cast before hand.

It's basically incapable of doing anything against badly-played opponents.

If you separate out the resources like hitpoints that defend from attacks and the ones used in attacking, you find that a four-on-one fight uses about a sixteenth of the party's defensive resources on average. Not many classes have any real limits to their attacking resources.

NPCs are famous for being hopelessly over-CR'd, so it seems odd to put much stock in the line saying that monsters should be exactly equal to NPCs.

There are actually lines in the DMG that say that high-level parties can take more than 4 encounters per day.

There's also more that's going on than HP alone. There's nasty effects which hurt your ability to fight, like ability damage.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-11, 03:34 PM
I haven't read it, but it sounds like another 'puzzle monster' that's CR 9 because a party equipped to deal with it would see it as a CR 9 monster.

If it isn't, then yes, the writer needs to be shot. Although I'd shoot writers for not documenting monsters properly in any event.

How do you deal with it?
It destroys magic items with a will save (vs each) and auto dispels all buffs. At will.

So you can't buff up against it.

Destruction means multiple die every turn.

You can glitterdust it, grease it, or solid fog it but that seems like it.

Hyozo
2010-02-11, 03:36 PM
The Skiurids... THE SKIURIDS!!! *curls up in fetal position*

Yeah, almost a TPK in the surprise round. How do things like Skiurids get by playtesting?

...Or concept approval, for that matter.

sofawall
2010-02-11, 03:39 PM
The Clockwork Horror is massively under-CRed.

Also, Weirds. Seriously, they can summon elementals, cast as a level 18 sorcerer and they know everything, ever, as a free action.

JaronK
2010-02-11, 03:41 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about:

That means a character of level X with less equipment is a CR X opponent. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a creature with a CR equal to the party level is supposed to be equal to one, not four, adventurers.

In all fairness, different designers had different ideas about how the CR system was supposed to work, so you're quoting one of them but it doesn't apply to the whole system. That's part of why CR is so messed up, really.

Though with that said, a 10th level Wizard could easily be a nearly unstoppable CR 10 opponent, and a 10th level Barbarian could be extremely dangerous, even with almost no gear.

JaronK

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 03:41 PM
I haven't read it, but it sounds like another 'puzzle monster' that's CR 9 because a party equipped to deal with it would see it as a CR 9 monster.

If it isn't, then yes, the writer needs to be shot. Although I'd shoot writers for not documenting monsters properly in any event.

OH HELL NO! It's just a "Save or Die every round, and you have no magic items if this encounters you". If it wins Init (and it actually has a Dex modifier despite being a Construct), it lashes out with MDJ and has DR/something that isn't magic. All of your Items must SoD, and your buff effects are gone with no roll required.

Next round, it's not dead because it has a decent HP and it unleashes Destruction, or uses Disintegrate to ruin your escape route. Effectively, if you see one you're best bet is to Teleport out of the area ASAP and pray it didn't fire the MDJ off.



The Skiurids... THE SKIURIDS!!! *curls up in fetal position*

Yeah, almost a TPK in the surprise round. How do things like Skiurids get by playtesting?

...Or concept approval, for that matter.

Yeah, there's a reason I put them on the Nightmare Fuel High Octane list. Those little bastards only get worse when you apply the Mob template.

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 03:44 PM
There are actually lines in the DMG that say that high-level parties can take more than 4 encounters per day.

There's also more that's going on than HP alone. There's nasty effects which hurt your ability to fight, like ability damage.

That's something different, and less related to way CRs and ELs interact with APL.

The thing is, you're clinging on to one line in a book that wasn't actually finished when it was published, that doesn't match up to any of the monsters. Sure, equal opponents don't necessarily cancel each other out at every single level. They do at some levels (assuming a balanced game).

You also haven't answered how "stunlock and mop floor with" leads to challenging encounters.


How do you deal with it?
It destroys magic items with a will save (vs each) and auto dispels all buffs. At will.

So you can't buff up against it.

Destruction means multiple die every turn.

You can glitterdust it, grease it, or solid fog it but that seems like it.

Would it be completely owned by a 17th level party?

If it would be, it's a badly-documented puzzle monster and the writer should be shot for not explaining himself properly. If it wouldn't, it's a completely broken monstrosity and the writer should be shot for being so completely stupid.

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 03:50 PM
The Clockwork Horror is massively under-CRed.

Clockwork Horror denotes several creatures, and the only broken one is the Adamantine Horror, which is currently being discussed.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-11, 03:56 PM
Would it be completely owned by a 17th level party?

If it would be, it's a badly-documented puzzle monster and the writer should be shot for not explaining himself properly. If it wouldn't, it's a completely broken monstrosity and the writer should be shot for being so completely stupid.

How much cheddar is the 17th level packing? Pun-pun could do it.

I mean, yeah a 17th level might win, but you'll probably lose a good deal of magic items.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-11, 03:58 PM
Would it be completely owned by a 17th level party?

If it would be, it's a badly-documented puzzle monster and the writer should be shot for not explaining himself properly. If it wouldn't, it's a completely broken monstrosity and the writer should be shot for being so completely stupid.CR 9. A party of above level 14 should view it as a time sink, not an encounter. But if it gets a single standard action, it forces the party to retreat and wait to rebuff. Any party. Of any level. And it has other things it can do, too. Yes, at level 17, you simply win init then have your pet Great Wyrm eat it with a charging full-attack, but that's not a puzzle monster, that's something CR 9 at EPL 17. And it still has Disjunction, which ruins your day even at level 20.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 03:59 PM
Would it be completely owned by a 17th level party?

If it would be, it's a badly-documented puzzle monster and the writer should be shot for not explaining himself properly. If it wouldn't, it's a completely broken monstrosity and the writer should be shot for being so completely stupid.

Not entirely. It'd put up one hell of a fight if it gets even a single Standard action. I've used it against an ECL 27 party, they nearly cried during the first round because it won init and a few bad Will saves. A party of Meldshapers, Martial Adepts, Invokers, and anyone in the Big 6 could theoretically deal with it at 5th level and up, but it's still going to wreak havoc if it gets to act.


The thing is, it's a CR 9. it should be a minimum CR 15 due to it's SLAs (an ECL 15 party stands a fair chance against it's save DCs).

Starbuck_II
2010-02-11, 04:02 PM
I think Adamatine Horror is the Rust Monster of Magic items.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 04:05 PM
I think Adamatine Horror is the Rust Monster of Magic items.

Try Magic. Period.

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 04:08 PM
Try Magic. Period.
And creatures. And objects.

Adamantine Horror is the Rust Monster of everything.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 04:12 PM
And creatures. And objects.

Adamantine Horror is the Rust Monster of everything.

Yeah. I think the only way to avoid dying in the first round is to have the Diamond Mind Fort counter readied with an auto-pass on the Concentration check (AKA modifier higher than the DC).

Grumman
2010-02-11, 04:13 PM
Adamantine Horror is the Rust Monster of everything.
I bet Tharizdun's natural form is an Adamantine Horror.

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 04:14 PM
Yeah. I think the only way to avoid dying in the first round is to have the Diamond Mind Fort counter readied with an auto-pass on the Concentration check (AKA modifier higher than the DC).
You could also IHS the Horror away.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-11, 04:17 PM
You could also IHS the Horror away.

The Horror (, the horror!) is not a spell, effect, or condition.

Oslecamo
2010-02-11, 04:19 PM
You could also IHS the Horror away.

Foolish boy. If ToB is allowed, it's clear that the Clockwork horror has taken martial study:IHS, and uses him in the first turn to remove the party.:smalltongue:

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 04:20 PM
Try Magic. Period.

Yeah, the "low-level spell vulnerability" blinds it for d4+1 rounds as far as I can tell.

Apparently there is some additional information on them floating around as part of the update.

There seems to be no good reason for a CR 9 creature to have the importance the ecology article says it does, however. Was it supposed to be CR 19? What are the CRs for platinum and gold horrors?


From the ecology article, I get the impression that the mordenkainen's disjunction, implosion, and disintegrate spell-like abilities might be treated as coming from a piece of equipment.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 04:24 PM
Yeah, the "low-level spell vulnerability" blinds it for d4+1 rounds as far as I can tell.

Apparently there is some additional information on them floating around as part of the update.

There seems to be no good reason for a CR 9 creature to have the importance the ecology article says it does, however. Was it supposed to be CR 19? What are the CRs for platinum and gold horrors?


BTW, note that it's "the" adamantine horror under the default fluff.

Even when blinded, it can still use MDJ to force a retreat or a SoL situation. Although I believe the Platinum and Gold ones are lower CR'ed, I'm AFB so I can't check.

sofawall
2010-02-11, 04:24 PM
Clockwork Horror denotes several creatures, and the only broken one is the Adamantine Horror, which is currently being discussed.

Since it was the only Clockwork Horror being discussed, saying "The Clockwork Horror" is very clearly referencing the Adamantine Horror.

Drolyt
2010-02-11, 04:39 PM
I'm not familiar with these clockwork horrors, but I looked up adamantine horror and the internet says its MM2. That's your problem right there. It took a long time before they started to get the CR thing sorta right.

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 04:41 PM
Since it was the only Clockwork Horror being discussed, saying "The Clockwork Horror" is very clearly referencing the Adamantine Horror.
In that case your post doesn't actually accomplish anything; it has already been concluded that the Horror is under-CRed.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 04:47 PM
I'm not familiar with these clockwork horrors, but I looked up adamantine horror and the internet says its MM2. That's your problem right there. It took a long time before they started to get the CR thing sorta right.

Methinks they still don't have it down...

4E Needlefang Drakes anyone?

Drolyt
2010-02-11, 04:49 PM
Methinks they still don't have it down...

4E Needlefang Drakes anyone?

Well, they still don't have it quite perfect, but they are doing better at the very least.

sofawall
2010-02-11, 04:49 PM
In that case your post doesn't actually accomplish anything; it has already been concluded that the Horror is under-CRed.

There was at least one person who said it might not be under-CRed. I was weighing in with my opinion.

Eldariel
2010-02-11, 04:57 PM
The ****ing Allip. Self-healing Ability Draining Incorporeal Undead with a random Will-save targeting attack and a couple of extra HP for its CR at CR 3. Wis Drain is something a party just can't deal with until they access some high-level magic.

Even when it doesn't TPK the party, it can permanently cripple anyone using Wis-based casting with one hit. And Turning it without Greater Turning (at +1 Level) just causes it to run into walls. Did I mention the thing heals almost as fast as you can deal damage to it even if you DID pack Magic Weapon/Magic Missile. And it's temporary HP so the first hit "heals" it too.

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 05:29 PM
The ****ing Allip. Self-healing Ability Draining Incorporeal Undead with a random Will-save targeting attack and a couple of extra HP for its CR at CR 3. Wis Drain is something a party just can't deal with until they access some high-level magic.

Even when it doesn't TPK the party, it can permanently cripple anyone using Wis-based casting with one hit. And Turning it without Greater Turning (at +1 Level) just causes it to run into walls. Did I mention the thing heals almost as fast as you can deal damage to it even if you DID pack Magic Weapon/Magic Missile. And it's temporary HP so the first hit "heals" it too.

Yeah, even ignoring the incorporeality, it looks like CR 4, possibly 5.

Yet again, it's a weird monster - it's not an appropriate challenge on its own for anyone who doesn't mind incorporeality too much, but it's absolutely hideous against anyone who does.

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 06:08 PM
Yeah, even ignoring the incorporeality, it looks like CR 4, possibly 5.

Yet again, it's a weird monster - it's not an appropriate challenge on its own for anyone who doesn't mind incorporeality too much, but it's absolutely hideous against anyone who does.
The Allip is the Rust Monster of Tarrasques.

Drolyt
2010-02-11, 06:16 PM
The Allip is the Rust Monster of Tarrasques.

Speaking of Tarrasque, how do you fight one without a spellcaster?

Eldariel
2010-02-11, 06:18 PM
Speaking of Tarrasque, how do you fight one without a spellcaster?

Ranged combat, item-based flight. Or Charge it enough to kill it. Really, 'cause of its high CR, it's much more manageable; level 20s have much more options than level 3s.

SaintRidley
2010-02-11, 06:19 PM
Speaking of Tarrasque, how do you fight one without a spellcaster?

War Hulk/Hulking Hurler and throw it into the sun.

Eurus
2010-02-11, 06:25 PM
War Hulk/Hulking Hurler and throw it into the sun.

What if the damage from the throw destroys the sun? :smalleek:

:smalltongue:

drengnikrafe
2010-02-11, 06:26 PM
What if the damage from the throw destroys the sun? :smalleek:

:smalltongue:

Collateral damage is totally acceptable. At least you killed it.

Drolyt
2010-02-11, 06:30 PM
But... you need a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead. You need either a spellcaster or at the very least a UMD user...

absolmorph
2010-02-11, 06:30 PM
Collateral damage is totally acceptable. At least you killed it.
Of course, now you've also destroyed the sun, and the tarrasque will come back in a few centuries/millenia (is that right?), anyways.

SaintRidley
2010-02-11, 06:33 PM
Perhaps the impact of the collision would instigate fusion in the Tarrasque, making the Tarrasque the sun? With its ability to regenerate and never permanently die, your material for fusion won't run out and the sun is better.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-11, 06:35 PM
But... you need a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If it's in the Sun or something like that, it's about as dead as Cthulhu. Good enough.

AslanCross
2010-02-11, 06:37 PM
It mostly depends on the party, but my nutty DM said a Purple Worm was a fair challenge for 4 3rd level characters. Right....

I think that's more a case of the DM not knowing how CR works.

Anyway, there's the Planetar, the Giant Crab (which was fixed in Stormwrack, btw), and a whole bunch of monsters in the 3.5 MM2. MM2 has the most messed-up use of the already broken CR system.

Milskidasith
2010-02-11, 06:40 PM
Revived Fossil (Libris Mortis) baboon.

26 hit points. 24 AC (11 touch, 21 flat-footed). Two claw attacks at 2d6+2 each, +2 to hit. DR 10/adamantine, immunity to cold. Combat Reflexes, which isn't much use, but undead immunities are very nice.

Challenge rating 1. Yeah, no. A level one party should conceivably be able to take down two of the dang things. Short of turning, you're not touching it.

Lucky it has no turning resistance and since the turning rules are stupid you can blow it up if you can turn a 2 HD undead. Other than that, you're boned against it.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-11, 06:42 PM
Drowned are pretty tough IIRC. The whole triple-digit HP and free Save or Suck/die deal makes it downright lethal for low-optimization groups.

Drolyt
2010-02-11, 06:44 PM
Anything with a save or die effect can seem to be low CR if you roll low or have a party that's not optimized to deal with them (don't have good saves and/or no magical defenses against death effects).

sonofzeal
2010-02-11, 07:31 PM
Amnizu (FC 2)

CR 7, and has a 3/day CL 14 Quickened Fireball, as well as a good init modifier. It also has good DR for its level, noteworthy SR, regeneration, fast flight, and an at-will touch attack that does 2d4 damage +2d4 Int damage.

One of these guys can cause serious pain for a lvl 7 party. Three 10d6 fireballs will mess up most people's day, and given its defenses and maneuverability, it's likely to get all three off even if it doesn't blow a Standard Action on one, which it entirely could.

Two of them should be an EL 9 encounter, but you'd better pray you kill at least one before its first turn or you'll be crispy critters.

Fiery Diamond
2010-02-11, 07:40 PM
It mostly depends on the party, but my nutty DM said a Purple Worm was a fair challenge for 4 3rd level characters. Right....

This is ridiculous.

sofawall
2010-02-11, 07:44 PM
Amnizu (FC 2)

CR 7, and has a 3/day CL 14 Quickened Fireball, as well as a good init modifier. It also has good DR for its level, noteworthy SR, regeneration, fast flight, and an at-will touch attack that does 2d4 damage +2d4 Int damage.

One of these guys can cause serious pain for a lvl 7 party. Three 10d6 fireballs will mess up most people's day, and given its defenses and maneuverability, it's likely to get all three off even if it doesn't blow a Standard Action on one, which it entirely could.

Two of them should be an EL 9 encounter, but you'd better pray you kill at least one before its first turn or you'll be crispy critters.

Quickened Fireball is cast as a swift, not a standard. Swifts are not convertible to standard. Therefore, Quickened Fireball cannot be cast as a standard.

sonofzeal
2010-02-11, 07:47 PM
Quickened Fireball is cast as a swift, not a standard. Swifts are not convertible to standard. Therefore, Quickened Fireball cannot be cast as a standard.
It has the "Quicken SLA" feat. This means that the SLA itself is not inherently Quickened, and therefor can be used as a Standard Action.

sofawall
2010-02-11, 07:50 PM
It has the "Quicken SLA" feat. This means that the SLA itself is not inherently Quickened, and therefor can be used as a Standard Action.

Useful to know, because some monsters merely have Quickened SLAs, not the Quicken SLA feat.

Eldariel
2010-02-11, 07:54 PM
This is ridiculous.

It's not entirely implausible; because of its horrible Will-saves, inexistent Touch AC and low Int, there are some ways to kill it. Ray of Stupidity in particular can one-shot it (no save, close-range Ray Touch Attack; level 2 enchantment for 1d4+1 Int damage). If the players are somehow aware of the Worm coming and thus are able to use an expendable character (like Fighter) as a bait; it should be dumb enough to be unable to pick out the real danger, and hungry enough to surface. If it's coiled on the surface, it's more doable, even.

But again, we're talking about a have-one-of-these-spells-and-classes-or-die, which is never good. That said, I wouldn't feel bad about sending one at a level 5-9 party; I'd expect them to come up with something to deal with it.

Fiery Diamond
2010-02-11, 08:00 PM
It's not entirely implausible; because of its horrible Will-saves, inexistent Touch AC and low Int, there are some ways to kill it. Ray of Stupidity in particular can one-shot it (no save, close-range Ray Touch Attack; level 2 enchantment for 1d4+1 Int damage). If the players are somehow aware of the Worm coming and thus are able to use an expendable character (like Fighter) as a bait; it should be dumb enough to be unable to pick out the real danger, and hungry enough to surface. If it's coiled on the surface, it's more doable, even.

But again, we're talking about a have-one-of-these-spells-and-classes-or-die, which is never good. That said, I wouldn't feel bad about sending one at a level 5-9 party; I'd expect them to come up with something to deal with it.

I suppose this is true. I'm running a gestalt and the party ran into one at 6th level (after having been warned of its deadliness back when they were 4th level). They ran away, and are going to come fight it again at 9th level, where I expect, since they are gestalt, they will utterly own it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-11, 08:06 PM
It's not entirely implausible; because of its horrible Will-saves, inexistent Touch AC and low Int, there are some ways to kill it. Ray of Stupidity in particular can one-shot it (no save, close-range Ray Touch Attack; level 2 enchantment for 1d4+1 Int damage). If the players are somehow aware of the Worm coming and thus are able to use an expendable character (like Fighter) as a bait; it should be dumb enough to be unable to pick out the real danger, and hungry enough to surface. If it's coiled on the surface, it's more doable, even.

But again, we're talking about a have-one-of-these-spells-and-classes-or-die, which is never good. That said, I wouldn't feel bad about sending one at a level 5-9 party; I'd expect them to come up with something to deal with it.

I prefer out-Grappling it. Girallon Arms FTW!

Thurbane
2010-02-11, 08:18 PM
Non-associated class levels...

Minotaur Cleric 6 = CR 7. So that's a large creature with scent ability, +8 STR & +4 CON, +5 natural armor, +6d8 hp, +6 BAB, Fort +2, Ref +5 and Will +5, for a CR increase of 1 over a Human Cleric 6. :smalleek:

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 08:21 PM
If it's in the Sun or something like that, it's about as dead as Cthulhu. Good enough.
SCP 682: Came back on fire. (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1543-j)

Inhuman Bot
2010-02-11, 08:25 PM
I recall the adamantine horror being rather annoying for its level if one is not prepared.

Where's this little beastie from? :p

Superglucose
2010-02-11, 08:34 PM
I have TPKed a party who regularly beat over CR monsters completely by accident with dire tigers. My own party was almost near TPKed by them this weekend (the flyer would have escaped) except that they kept rolling 1s on their bite and one of them failed a key save.
Jeez, yeah. Dire Tigers are beastly. They charge in with pounce, which gives them 2 +20 claws (2d4+8) 2 +18 rakes (2d4+4) and a Bite at +14 for 2d6+4, then grapple at +24. Given their hide and move silently skills they're likely going to be in a surprise round, charge-grappling the weakest looking creature. I'm not saying they're horribly under-CRed, but I am saying they're on the tougher end of CR 8.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-11, 08:47 PM
You want to hear of a massively under-CR'd encounter?

Let me tell you a tale of a Kobold who started his life as a Paladin...

Starbuck_II
2010-02-11, 08:57 PM
You want to hear of a massively under-CR'd encounter?

Let me tell you a tale of a Kobold who started his life as a Paladin...

Dude, Pun-Pun has a high CR.

Boci
2010-02-11, 09:00 PM
Dude, Pun-Pun has a high CR.

I'm guessing it would be infinate just like his divine ranks.

Augmented Lurk
2010-02-11, 09:02 PM
Phasm. CR 7, has 15 hit dice, and can use alternate form to shift into any creature of large size or smaller (like, say, a Planetar:smalleek:).

Thurbane
2010-02-11, 09:02 PM
...another way to break (or at least, bend) CR is with the Corpsecrafter line of feats. They give boosts to created undead, without technically raising their CR level. My party got munted by a group of Bar Lgura skseltons, all souped up with these feats, a little while back in our EttRoG game. Admittedly, that was mainly because we don't have a cleric. :smallamused:

And add Awaken Undead in there. An intelligent zombie or skeleton that can gain skills and feats is obviously more of a challenge than one that can't, but technically speaking no CR increase is mentioned in the spell.

Runestar
2010-02-11, 09:06 PM
Adamantine horrors have no skill points, IIRC, meaning a single tanglefoot bag should stymie them and leave them unable to use their SLAs (because they cannot make concentration checks).

If this is what the author had in mind, he indeed deserves to be smacked hard. :smallfurious:


Non-associated class levels...

Minotaur Cleric 6 = CR 7. So that's a large creature with scent ability, +8 STR & +4 CON, +5 natural armor, +6d8 hp, +6 BAB, Fort +2, Ref +5 and Will +5, for a CR increase of 1 over a Human Cleric 6.

A human cleric6 was never cr6 to begin with. The designers themselves flat-out supported this when they agreed that a gnoll cleric2 was cr2 (and statistically superior to a human cleric2 in every aspect).

But I agree that non-associated lvs can lead to some abusive combinations if not watched carefully.

Also, not quite under-cr'ed, but many monsters can be made stronger simply by playing around with their feat selections or optimizing their equipment. :smallamused:

The Glyphstone
2010-02-11, 09:18 PM
Adamantine horrors have no skill points, IIRC, meaning a single tanglefoot bag should stymie them and leave them unable to use their SLAs (because they cannot make concentration checks).



They'd make Concentration checks at +0. A skill check with no ranks is an ability check, and a Ability of - is an effective bonus of +0.

Runestar
2010-02-11, 09:21 PM
They'd make Concentration checks at +0. A skill check with no ranks is an ability check, and a Ability of - is an effective bonus of +0.

Except that concentration is a trained skill, so you need at least half rank to be allowed a roll...

sonofzeal
2010-02-11, 09:27 PM
Dude, Pun-Pun has a high CR.
Most of Pun-Pun's abuses don't raise his CR. I believe the Divine Rank portion does, but he can still have almost every ability in the game and infinite stats in every way without that, and be just CR 1.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-11, 09:28 PM
Except that concentration is a trained skill, so you need at least half rank to be allowed a roll...

No it isn't...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm

Contrast:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm

(And the actual chart in p63 of the PHB says 'yes' to 'Can be used Untrained'.

awa
2010-02-11, 09:38 PM
the clock work actually does have skills its just a typo in the book that they weren't put in theirs a web thing for monster manual 2 that fixs it. It has really high hide and silent so it will likely get the first shot in a round.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-11, 09:48 PM
At the people claiming that a CR X challenge is not the same as a Level X character:

CR (Level+4) is supposed to be a 50:50 fight for the party, even chances to live or die.

CR gets a +2 if you double the number of creatures.

So 4 CR X enemies is balanced against 4 Level X characters. So if 4 creatures of CR X are as powerful as 4 ECL X PCs, they must be equivalent in power.

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 10:20 PM
At the people claiming that a CR X challenge is not the same as a Level X character:

EL (Level+4) is supposed to be a 50:50 fight for the party, even chances to live or die.

EL gets a +2 if you double the number of creatures.

So 4 CR X enemies is balanced against 4 Level X characters.

So far so good. Possibly.


So if 4 creatures of CR X are as powerful as 4 ECL X PCs, they must be equivalent in power.

Your maths is out.

If the relationship between number of monsters and the overall power of the group was the same as the relationship between number of PCs and overall power of the party, you might have an argument.

But it isn't. Most monsters aren't written with teamwork in mind, and they certainly aren't assigned CRs based on teamwork. On the other hand, player characters are.

Monsters are always given a small buff to account for that.

sonofzeal
2010-02-11, 10:29 PM
Four CR X monsters make for a EL +4 encounter, which is theoretically 50/50 odds against an ECL X party of four people. So, his maths work, although you may be right that it's a further demonstration of the system being broken.

Flickerdart
2010-02-11, 10:46 PM
I'm guessing it would be infinate just like his divine ranks.
Arbitrarily large, not infinite. You have to go Omniscificer for truly infinite stuff.

lesser_minion
2010-02-11, 10:55 PM
Four CR X monsters make for a EL +4 encounter, which is theoretically 50/50 odds against an ECL X party of four people. So, his maths work, although you may be right that it's a further demonstration of the system being broken.

The second quote is where it doesn't hold up. In general, players are more likely to get something out of teamwork than monsters.

Lamech
2010-02-11, 10:58 PM
Protean scourge. I mean really? Some traps. For example nightmare traps, and gate traps and summon undead four traps. Geas traps if people don't have immune to mind affecting. Word of Chaos+Dictum traps at a CL of say... 20. Voidmind war trolls with that template that makes them immune to subdual. Efreet+non-genie.

Monsters that take leadership. Dragons that take epic leadership. And no cohorts don't add to CR, since they were added by the monsters "own power".

holywhippet
2010-02-11, 11:00 PM
One my DM once pulled on a different group - send the party against a pack of wolves. Have the wolves attempt trip attacks against the party members while they are upright and readied actions to trip when they get back up. If the casters try casting while on the group use AoO and readied actions to disrupt their spellcasting.

sonofzeal
2010-02-11, 11:13 PM
The second quote is where it doesn't hold up. In general, players are more likely to get something out of teamwork than monsters.
That's not math though. And that's not even necessarily true. For example, see just about any of the "Encounter Templates" from Dungeonscape for examples of monsters working together to achieve something more than the sum of the parts.

Tavar
2010-02-11, 11:13 PM
Arbitrarily large, not infinite. You have to go Omniscificer for truly infinite stuff.

Umm... Pun Pun does use the Omniscificer(and does it sooner, from what I remember). That's why he has infinite X.

nargbop
2010-02-11, 11:43 PM
The Mage! using Dragon Magazine feats
lvl 1: Sorcerer Countenance of the Mage, Eyes of the Mage
lvl 2: Sorcerer
lvl 3: Sorcerer Footsteps of the Mage
lvl 4: Sorcerer
lvl 5: Sorcerer
lvl 6: Sorcerer Hands of the Mage
lvl 7: Sorcerer
lvl 8: Sorcerer
lvl 9: Sorcerer Ears of the Mage
lvl10: Sorcerer
lvl11: Sorcerer
lvl12: Sorcerer Voice of the Mage
lvl13: Sorcerer
lvl14: Sorcerer
lvl15: Sorcerer Presence of the Mage
lvl16: Sorcerer
lvl17: Sorcerer
lvl18: Sorcerer Name of the Mage
lvl19: Sorcerer
lvl20: Sorcerer


Max out Intimidate and choose the worst spells possible but include Teleport. He does nothing but sit in his tower, and when someone interesting comes along, he WHOOMS there and intimidates them. Nothing else.

sonofzeal
2010-02-11, 11:58 PM
The Mage! using Dragon Magazine feats
lvl 1: Sorcerer Countenance of the Mage, Eyes of the Mage
lvl 2: Sorcerer
lvl 3: Sorcerer Footsteps of the Mage
lvl 4: Sorcerer
lvl 5: Sorcerer
lvl 6: Sorcerer Hands of the Mage
lvl 7: Sorcerer
lvl 8: Sorcerer
lvl 9: Sorcerer Ears of the Mage
lvl10: Sorcerer
lvl11: Sorcerer
lvl12: Sorcerer Voice of the Mage
lvl13: Sorcerer
lvl14: Sorcerer
lvl15: Sorcerer Presence of the Mage
lvl16: Sorcerer
lvl17: Sorcerer
lvl18: Sorcerer Name of the Mage
lvl19: Sorcerer
lvl20: Sorcerer


Max out Intimidate and choose the worst spells possible but include Teleport. He does nothing but sit in his tower, and when someone interesting comes along, he WHOOMS there and intimidates them. Nothing else.
.....to what end? I mean, he's a CR-20 encounter already. What does this accomplish that dramatically overshadows other CR 20 threats?

Flickerdart
2010-02-12, 12:07 AM
Umm... Pun Pun does use the Omniscificer(and does it sooner, from what I remember). That's why he has infinite X.
That's why I said you have to do Omniscificer. "Default" Pun-Pun has finite scores.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-12, 12:09 AM
War Hulk/Hulking Hurler and throw it into the sun.So Mario is a war hulking hurler now?

http://www.brawlsnapshots.com/snapshots/156901.jpg

Does he gain negative levels when he's reduced from Super Mario when a Goomba hits him, and his permanent duration enlarge person wears off?

(Also, that looks to be very...PAINFUL for Bowser. Also, if Mario's positioned properly, I'm jealous. But not of what's actually happening in that screencap. Ouch.)

Gralamin
2010-02-12, 12:14 AM
That's why I said you have to do Omniscificer. "Default" Pun-Pun has finite scores.

Until he saids
"I am pun-Pun" (Ex)
Pun-Pun has infinite scores.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:21 AM
They'd make Concentration checks at +0. A skill check with no ranks is an ability check, and a Ability of - is an effective bonus of +0.

They'd use their Cha bonus instead, since they have no Con score.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-12, 01:09 AM
.....to what end? I mean, he's a CR-20 encounter already. What does this accomplish that dramatically overshadows other CR 20 threats?

Sometimes Intimidation can be useful. Check my sig on how a level 13 Complete Warrior Samurai won against Fistbeard Beardfist using nothing but Intimidate checks and a nonmagical Short Sword...

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-12, 01:25 AM
They'd use their Cha bonus instead, since they have no Con score.That's only for undead.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:32 AM
That's only for undead.

Hmm, so it is.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-12, 01:58 AM
Hmm, so it is.

to quote the SRD:

Constitution

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

Without skills, a Concentration check is just a Constitution check, which a construct automatically fails.

sonofzeal
2010-02-12, 02:43 AM
Sometimes Intimidation can be useful. Check my sig on how a level 13 Complete Warrior Samurai won against Fistbeard Beardfist using nothing but Intimidate checks and a nonmagical Short Sword...
Preaching to the choir, Shneekey. However, the dude's a CR 20 full-caster. There are high standards here. Why this and not Diplomancing-by-telepathy?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 03:41 AM
No such vulnerability. And it also has Destruction at will. Yeah, that thing's CR is eff'ed up so hard the writer needs to be shot.

It has Implosion at will, not Destruction, unless there's errata I'm not aware of.


OH HELL NO! It's just a "Save or Die every round, and you have no magic items if this encounters you". If it wins Init (and it actually has a Dex modifier despite being a Construct), it lashes out with MDJ and has DR/something that isn't magic. All of your Items must SoD, and your buff effects are gone with no roll required.

Next round, it's not dead because it has a decent HP and it unleashes Destruction, or uses Disintegrate to ruin your escape route. Effectively, if you see one you're best bet is to Teleport out of the area ASAP and pray it didn't fire the MDJ off.

It doesn't have any DR I can see. It has quite decent SR though.


Adamantine horrors have no skill points, IIRC, meaning a single tanglefoot bag should stymie them and leave them unable to use their SLAs (because they cannot make concentration checks).

If this is what the author had in mind, he indeed deserves to be smacked hard. :smallfurious:

It almost looks like that was their intent...


to quote the SRD:


Without skills, a Concentration check is just a Constitution check, which a construct automatically fails.

Why are you quoting that at me?

olentu
2010-02-12, 03:46 AM
to quote the SRD:


Without skills, a Concentration check is just a Constitution check, which a construct automatically fails.

It would be an untrained skill check.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 03:58 AM
Without skills, a Concentration check is just a Constitution check, which a construct automatically fails.

Except that clockwork horrors have skills. They have an int score unlike golems. They also have feats. By monster rules, they have skill points, it's just that the author forgot to put them, as MMII is 3.0, and feats/skill points for monsters still weren't properly distributed.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 04:20 AM
Except that clockwork horrors have skills. They have an int score unlike golems. They also have feats. By monster rules, they have skill points, it's just that the author forgot to put them, as MMII is 3.0, and feats/skill points for monsters still weren't properly distributed.

Except it doesn't have any skill points in Concentration for some unimaginable reason.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 04:24 AM
Except it doesn't have any skill points in Concentration for some unimaginable reason.

DMs are allowed to transfer the skill points of a monster around whitout changing it's CR.

Hey, some published adventures have fullcasters whitout concentration points! Now that's crazy.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-02-12, 04:34 AM
DMs are allowed to transfer the skill points of a monster around whitout changing it's CR.

Hey, some published adventures have fullcasters whitout concentration points! Now that's crazy.Almost as crazy as a published book of monsters with a CR 9 who can disjoin at will. DMs are allowed to do anything they want in the game world, but I'd prefer that such a ridiculous monster have an obvious weakness. Shifting points into concentration on an Adamantine Horror is reasonable up until you realize you're throwing an Adamantine Horror at the party.

Orran
2010-02-12, 04:36 AM
Ways to prepare for a fight with an adamantine horror at level 5:
Cast phantom steed, fly somewhere else realy fast.
Start a small fire, gather up ashes, disguise as disintegrated humanoids, hide.
Sell all magical loot, use money to get planeshifted somewhere nice.
Open a chain of hardware stores, provide discount parts in return for life.
Be a vow of poverty monk, hope to roll well on saves.

Any other ideas?

Killer Angel
2010-02-12, 04:55 AM
MEEE...MEEEE...CHOOSE ME! I HAVE ONE!

MMIII - Mezzoloth (yugoloth)

95 hp, DR 10/good, SR 22, Immunity acid and poison, resistance 10 to all the other forms of energy, see invisib. at will... and Dispel magic / Cloudkill 2/day.

With a CR 6!

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 05:18 AM
Ways to prepare for a fight with an adamantine horror at level 5:
Cast phantom steed, fly somewhere else realy fast.
Start a small fire, gather up ashes, disguise as disintegrated humanoids, hide.
Sell all magical loot, use money to get planeshifted somewhere nice.
Open a chain of hardware stores, provide discount parts in return for life.
Be a vow of poverty monk, hope to roll well on saves.

Any other ideas?

Scrolls of Disintegrate?

Speaking of Monk, adding one level of that to the Adamantine Horror is scary. It gets the elite array, +2 to all saves, and its huge Wis bonus to AC (and touch AC!). And all for +1 CR.

Runestar
2010-02-12, 05:21 AM
DMs are allowed to transfer the skill points of a monster around whitout changing it's CR.

Hey, some published adventures have fullcasters whitout concentration points! Now that's crazy.

Concentration is only useful if the wizard needs to cast defensively. So in theory at least, a wizard without concentration is perfectly viable if you can keep him out of reach of the PCs. :)

Drolyt
2010-02-12, 05:40 AM
Concentration is only useful if the wizard needs to cast defensively. So in theory at least, a wizard without concentration is perfectly viable if you can keep him out of reach of the PCs. :)

Still odd. There's no skill anyone should pick over concentration if they are a spellcaster.

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 05:45 AM
I don't know if this is a winner, but surely gets pretty close:
Marsh Jelly from Tome of Horrors III, page 124.
CR3? Don't think so!!

Grumman
2010-02-12, 05:48 AM
I don't know if this is a winner, but surely gets pretty close:
Marsh Jelly from Tome of Horrors III, page 124.
CR3? Don't think so!!
That's not a WotC book, is it? Could you tell us more about what makes it so dangerous?

Drolyt
2010-02-12, 05:50 AM
I don't know if this is a winner, but surely gets pretty close:
Marsh Jelly from Tome of Horrors III, page 124.
CR3? Don't think so!!

What's Tome of Horrors?

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 05:54 AM
That's not a WotC book, is it? Could you tell us more about what makes it so dangerous?

From OP I didn't know that this was WotC only :)
Simply put Marsh Jelly deals out too much damage... 4 tentacles and each one is 1d6+3. It has nice selection of special powers too. Grossly unfair and disgrace to the credibility of 3rd party material published under OGL-license.

Grumman
2010-02-12, 06:00 AM
From OP I didn't know that this was WotC only :)
I don't want you to not talk about it, it's just that people are less likely to already be familiar with the creature, so there's not much room for discussion until we know the details.

Take the Adamantine Horror, for example. Even if you've never heard of the creature before, Flickerdart did a pretty good job of summing up why it's so nasty.

Killer Angel
2010-02-12, 06:07 AM
What's Tome of Horrors?

It's the book that, with Libris Mortis, you'd need for the campaign Tomb of Battles. :smalltongue:

(sorry, I know that Tome of Horrors wasn't a typo, but can't resist...)

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 06:09 AM
I don't want you to not talk about it, it's just that people are less likely to already be familiar with the creature, so there's not much room for discussion until we know the details.

Take the Adamantine Horror, for example. Even if you've never heard of the creature before, Flickerdart did a pretty good job of summing up why it's so nasty.

You are right. I was too vague with my first post. Well just to put the reason for under-CR short, it's the unfair amount of damage for CR3 monster (4 tentacles 1d6+3). That's it :)

Edit: Please note that they didn't even make errata about it either!

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 06:13 AM
Concentration is only useful if the wizard needs to cast defensively. So in theory at least, a wizard without concentration is perfectly viable if you can keep him out of reach of the PCs. :)

No, concentration can also be used to keep a spell if you take damage. The PC wizard could easily defeat that NPC wizard just by readying actions to magic missile/fireball it when he casts something. Or summoning a hawk and making it fly near the other wizard. Or heck, flying himself near the other wizard and keep wacking him with his staff.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-12, 06:51 AM
Still odd. There's no skill anyone should pick over concentration if they are a spellcaster.

Spellcraft.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 06:53 AM
Spellcraft.

Not necessarily. Certainly not for something that relies on its SLAs to the extent an Adamantine Horror does.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-12, 06:58 AM
Not necessarily. Certainly not for something that relies on its SLAs to the extent an Adamantine Horror does.

Ah, but a spellcaster will want to know what spells are coming at him.

Luckily, skills are 2+ for casters.

Spellcraft and Concentration are always the first two.

EDIT: I'm not saying it's 100% one way or the other. They're both incredibly useful skills, and should be prioritized based on the specific build. I'm just saying it's not a clear cut issue of "Concentration > Spellcraft".

It's based on many things.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 07:42 AM
Ah, but a spellcaster will want to know what spells are coming at him.

Luckily, skills are 2+ for casters.

Spellcraft and Concentration are always the first two.

EDIT: I'm not saying it's 100% one way or the other. They're both incredibly useful skills, and should be prioritized based on the specific build. I'm just saying it's not a clear cut issue of "Concentration > Spellcraft".

It's based on many things.

Spellcraft is more the utility side, whereas Concentration is the combat side. If you're never going to be in combat, you don't need Concentration; if you never need to identify spells, you don't need Spellcraft.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-12, 07:42 AM
One my DM once pulled on a different group - send the party against a pack of wolves. Have the wolves attempt trip attacks against the party members while they are upright and readied actions to trip when they get back up. If the casters try casting while on the group use AoO and readied actions to disrupt their spellcasting.

Wait... you can only ready a standard action (but only when you have one available).
They had 2 standard actions?

Runestar
2010-02-12, 07:42 AM
No, concentration can also be used to keep a spell if you take damage. The PC wizard could easily defeat that NPC wizard just by readying actions to magic missile/fireball it when he casts something. Or summoning a hawk and making it fly near the other wizard. Or heck, flying himself near the other wizard and keep wacking him with his staff.

And no wizard will have a prayer of ever making that concentration check if the foe attacking him knows what he is doing. Which is why I did not mention it.

Let's see...I ready an action to hit the wizard with a maximized orb of acid if he casts a spell. Now, lets see him make a DC100 concentration check. :smallamused:

Spellcasters typically invest in concentration as there really isn't anything else better to do with those skill points, but looking back at how often it was used, I am certain I would do just fine without any ranks in it.

Hmm...and concentration can be made untrained. My bad. So the typical adamantine horror has a 70% chance of failing that check. Let's hope the DM never catches on...:smallsigh:

Grumman
2010-02-12, 07:49 AM
Wait... you can only ready a standard action (but only when you have one available).
They had 2 standard actions?
Sure: the first wolf has one, the second wolf has another. :smallwink:

Boci
2010-02-12, 07:52 AM
Consumables can always be abused.

Four Wizards 5 / Some full caster 2 / fatespinners 2, each one with a hummingbird familiar, elven substitution level, nerveskitter and improved initiative, (+17 to initiative before Dex modifier) casting a save or die spell at +2 DC, forcing you to reroll a successful save.

Runestar
2010-02-12, 08:08 AM
Consumables can always be abused.

Four Wizards 3 / Master specialist 4 / fatespinners 2, each one with a hummingbird familiar, elven substitution level and improved initiative, casting a save or die spell at +2 DC, forcing you to reroll a successful save.

How do you qualify for elven sub (which applies only to generalists) and master specialist (requiring you to specialize) at the same time?

But may as well throw in nerveskitter as well for another +5 initiative.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 08:14 AM
And no wizard will have a prayer of ever making that concentration check if the foe attacking him knows what he is doing. Which is why I did not mention it.

Let's see...I ready an action to hit the wizard with a maximized orb of acid if he casts a spell. Now, lets see him make a DC100 concentration check. :smallamused:

Wholesome Corruption. :tongue:

And that's assuming he doesn't have resistance or immunity to acid.


Spellcasters typically invest in concentration as there really isn't anything else better to do with those skill points, but looking back at how often it was used, I am certain I would do just fine without any ranks in it.

Well, you evidently weren't hit with enough Tanglefoot Bags. :smalltongue:


Hmm...and concentration can be made untrained. My bad. So the typical adamantine horror has a 70% chance of failing that check. Let's hope the DM never catches on...:smallsigh:

Indeed.

Boci
2010-02-12, 08:28 AM
How do you qualify for elven sub (which applies only to generalists) and master specialist (requiring you to specialize) at the same time?

But may as well throw in nerveskitter as well for another +5 initiative.

Thanks for pointing that out.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-12, 08:46 AM
Another crazy combination is a Displacer Beast, advanced to Huge Size (I think this is doable with +3 HD, so size increase plus HD = +2 CR), then add Monster of Legend (+2 additional CR). This huge monster had 15 ft. reach, tons of immunities and resistance, SR, tons of HP, displacement, fire breathing, and more at CR 8.

The Sylph is also pretty brutal (I know... MM II...). It can summon a large elementals (CR 5), can cast greater invisibility at will, casts like a sorcerer of 7th level (racial HD +4). It's a little squishy (3 HD or something like that), but it can fly and turn greater invisible at will, plus you have to deal with a CR 5 elemental. All that for CR 5. Assuming she strikes from the sky like a good Blood Raven, the party can get wiped before they even know what's going on (Simple attack pattern: 1st round -> summon a fire elemental in the middle of the party, 2nd round -> Haste the elemental -> 3rd-5th rounds -> Spam Fireball). Thanks to the CR increase for advancing creatures, she can become 9 HD, CR 8, but casts like a 13th sorceror.

RebelRogue
2010-02-12, 09:48 AM
It mostly depends on the party, but my nutty DM said a Purple Worm was a fair challenge for 4 3rd level characters. Right....
His flawed logic is probably: 4 characters of level 3, that's 4*3 = 12. A purple worm has CR 12. Good luck with that one!

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 09:55 AM
Thanks to the CR increase for advancing creatures, she can become 9 HD, CR 8, but casts like a 13th sorceror.

Monster spellcasting doesn't work that way!

Advancing monsters increases HD, stats, skills, saves, feats and BAB, but abilities like spellcasting and breath attacks don't automaticaly scale up with HD. The sylph will always be a 7th level caster no matter how many HD you give it. If you want to increase it's caster ability, you need to give it caster levels.

Runestar
2010-02-12, 10:04 AM
Monster spellcasting doesn't work that way!

Advancing monsters increases HD, stats, skills, saves, feats and BAB, but abilities like spellcasting and breath attacks don't automaticaly scale up with HD. The sylph will always be a 7th level caster no matter how many HD you give it. If you want to increase it's caster ability, you need to give it caster levels.

The sylph entry explicitly states that its spellcasting improves with additional racial HD (ie: spellcasting = HD+4), as an exception to the norm.

Though in light of this, its cr should improve at a 1:1 rate, rather than the 1:2 rate outsiders normally enjoy.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 10:15 AM
Nevermind then, broken as hell.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-12, 10:45 AM
The sylph entry explicitly states that its spellcasting improves with additional racial HD (ie: spellcasting = HD+4), as an exception to the norm.

Though in light of this, its cr should improve at a 1:1 rate, rather than the 1:2 rate outsiders normally enjoy.

Theoretically, but by RAW it's quite mad. Also, even without advancing HD, it's quite brutal.


Nevermind then, broken as hell.

Very much so! It's not like regular spellcasting (a Rakshasa casts spells just as well, but is double the CR, and has to advance as a Sorcerer for any benefit). The only 'balancing' factor is that the Sylph only advances to 9 HD... I think the CR is supposed to be offset by her low HP, but it's hardly a good balance.

Oh, and I almost forgot: From MMI -> Howler. This is a VERY nutty monster for a CR 3. With a full attack, you can potentially deal 2d8+5 + 4d6+8 damage (with very good die rolling). Plus, every quill hinders the PC's combat capabilities. It has good HP and great saves. Puts an ogre to shame!

Runestar
2010-02-12, 10:56 AM
Very much so! It's not like regular spellcasting (a Rakshasa casts spells just as well, but is double the CR, and has to advance as a Sorcerer for any benefit). The only 'balancing' factor is that the Sylph only advances to 9 HD... I think the CR is supposed to be offset by her low HP, but it's hardly a good balance.

I take it you haven't seen the spellweaver (also MM2) yet? Cr10, sorc12 casting. Spellcasting also advances by HD, but it is a monstrous humanoid (so each extra 3HD improves its cr by only +1)...:smallcool:

So you can probably get a sorc30 monstrosity at just cr16 or something.

Drolyt
2010-02-12, 10:59 AM
I take it you haven't seen the spellweaver (also MM2) yet? Cr10, sorc12 casting. Spellcasting also advances by HD, but it is a monstrous humanoid (so each extra 3HD improves its cr by only +1)...:smallcool:

So you can probably get a sorc30 monstrosity at just cr16 or something.

I vote we don't allow advanced monsters in this thread. You can pull off some ridiculous stuff if you apply the cr guidelines without thinking.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 11:00 AM
The sylph entry explicitly states that its spellcasting improves with additional racial HD (ie: spellcasting = HD+4), as an exception to the norm.

Though in light of this, its cr should improve at a 1:1 rate, rather than the 1:2 rate outsiders normally enjoy.

According to the actual text, the caster level goes up with HD but the spells known and spells per day don't. Which means it's not nearly as much of a problem.

Boci
2010-02-12, 11:02 AM
I take it you haven't seen the spellweaver (also MM2) yet? Cr10, sorc12 casting. Spellcasting also advances by HD, but it is a monstrous humanoid (so each extra 3HD improves its cr by only +1)...:smallcool:

So you can probably get a sorc30 monstrosity at just cr16 or something.

Still cannot cast spells higher than 6th levelp though, so stacking HD isn't that abusive with this one. As it is though, its bloody powerful, casting multiplr spells per round.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-12, 12:14 PM
I take it you haven't seen the spellweaver (also MM2) yet? Cr10, sorc12 casting. Spellcasting also advances by HD, but it is a monstrous humanoid (so each extra 3HD improves its cr by only +1)...:smallcool:

So you can probably get a sorc30 monstrosity at just cr16 or something.

Oh yeah! I had completely forgotten that thing! :smallbiggrin: I kept flipping past it, but I heard it was completely out of whack. Epic spells at CR 16? Please!


According to the actual text, the caster level goes up with HD but the spells known and spells per day don't. Which means it's not nearly as much of a problem.

Interesting! Did they change that at all in the 3.5 WotC update (or if that was 3.0 parlance for 'caster of level equal to HD + 4?) The entry doesn't make as much sense otherwise compared to regular MM monsters that cast spells 'as an Xth level Y'.


I vote we don't allow advanced monsters in this thread. You can pull off some ridiculous stuff if you apply the cr guidelines without thinking.

It may then be best if we leave MM II monsters out of this as well, since most of that stuff is worse than advanced monsters. I stand by my Howler, though.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 12:23 PM
Interesting! Did they change that at all in the 3.5 WotC update (or if that was 3.0 parlance for 'caster of level equal to HD + 4?) The entry doesn't make as much sense otherwise compared to regular MM monsters that cast spells 'as an Xth level Y'.


Nope, it isn't as broken as you said, I just managed to check.

Only the caster level is equal to the HD. If you advance it as an outsider, it retains the same number of spells known and spells per day, only the CL skyrockets. Meh, still overpowered with stuff like the uncaped wings spell.

Drolyt
2010-02-12, 12:29 PM
It may then be best if we leave MM II monsters out of this as well, since most of that stuff is worse than advanced monsters. I stand by my Howler, though.

Part of the MM II problem is that it is 3.0. Back then a number of monsters had lower CR for some reason, even though they don't appear to have gotten stronger in 3.5. For example iirc Pit Fiends used to be CR 18.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:30 PM
Interesting! Did they change that at all in the 3.5 WotC update (or if that was 3.0 parlance for 'caster of level equal to HD + 4?) The entry doesn't make as much sense otherwise compared to regular MM monsters that cast spells 'as an Xth level Y'.

It specifies "CL = HD + 4, spells known = *set numbers*, spells per day = *set numbers*". I believe there's stuff in the same book which is "casts as a X of level HD + Y"

Drolyt
2010-02-12, 12:33 PM
Still cannot cast spells higher than 6th levelp though, so stacking HD isn't that abusive with this one. As it is though, its bloody powerful, casting multiplr spells per round.

The wording on the arm thing is a bit confusing, but I think the intention is that they could still cast higher level spells, its just that using their multiple spell per turn ability they are limited to 6 spell levels. If that is incorrect then that monster was just poorly designed.

Eurus
2010-02-12, 12:56 PM
Lucky it has no turning resistance and since the turning rules are stupid you can blow it up if you can turn a 2 HD undead. Other than that, you're boned against it.

Well, a three HD revived fossil -- a leopard, perhaps, or a heavy horse if you're willing to sacrifice offense for more health -- is only CR 2, perfectly reasonable for a level one party to fight, at which point it would be significantly harder to turn.

Of course, none of this is Adamantine Horror level, but for a level one party that just got trampled to death by a fossilized horse? Not fun.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-12, 01:16 PM
Well, a three HD revived fossil -- a leopard, perhaps, or a heavy horse if you're willing to sacrifice offense for more health -- is only CR 2, perfectly reasonable for a level one party to fight, at which point it would be significantly harder to turn.

Of course, none of this is Adamantine Horror level, but for a level one party that just got trampled to death by a fossilized horse? Not fun.

Iproved turning + Dread Necro = Command fossilized horse.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:21 PM
Iproved turning + Dread Necro = Command fossilized horse.

No, because your Turning Check doesn't matter when checking whether it's commanded, only your Rebuking Level.

But you could certainly rebuke it.

Inhuman Bot
2010-02-12, 02:36 PM
2 IK beasties:

Scrap Thralls. I can't remember their exact CR, but it's 3-4 ish. Fairly weak, nothing that special, except for the fact that they attack in groups and can do 40 damage in an AoE by explodeing.

Moreso, the DeathJack. Purely because of it being CR 15 and casting as a level 18 cleric, and haveing several bruteish melee powers. Also, it can eat you and burn your soul to make itself stronger. Then, it makes undead.

Lastly, if you DO kill it, the killer has an uncontrollable urge to put it's shoulderplates on the nearest SteamJack. If you do so, the SteamJack immediately turns into the DeathJack and devours your soul for starting power.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 02:44 PM
2 IK beasties:

Scrap Thralls. I can't remember their exact CR, but it's 3-4 ish. Fairly weak, nothing that special, except for the fact that they attack in groups and can do 40 damage in an AoE by explodeing.

Moreso, the DeathJack. Purely because of it being CR 15 and casting as a level 18 cleric, and haveing several bruteish melee powers. Also, it can eat you and burn your soul to make itself stronger. Then, it makes undead.

Lastly, if you DO kill it, the killer has an uncontrollable urge to put it's shoulderplates on the nearest SteamJack. If you do so, the SteamJack immediately turns into the DeathJack and devours your soul for starting power.

Never heard of those.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-12, 02:46 PM
2 IK beasties:

Scrap Thralls. I can't remember their exact CR, but it's 3-4 ish. Fairly weak, nothing that special, except for the fact that they attack in groups and can do 40 damage in an AoE by explodeing.

Moreso, the DeathJack. Purely because of it being CR 15 and casting as a level 18 cleric, and haveing several bruteish melee powers. Also, it can eat you and burn your soul to make itself stronger. Then, it makes undead.

Lastly, if you DO kill it, the killer has an uncontrollable urge to put it's shoulderplates on the nearest SteamJack. If you do so, the SteamJack immediately turns into the DeathJack and devours your soul for starting power.

So basically just like their figures in WM :smallbiggrin:

I recall a few from MM 3, but I can't think about them off-hand. I'll have to take a look.

Dr.Epic
2010-02-12, 03:17 PM
Also, warhorse, or something like that. Or... some horse. There's a horse that's a CR 1/2, I believe, but would almost definitely kick the butts of a 1st level party.

I was in a campaign once that was traveling through the wilderness and we ran out of food and decided to eat our one horse. There were three of use, level 2 or 3, and we all almost died from that thing.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-12, 05:20 PM
No, because your Turning Check doesn't matter when checking whether it's commanded, only your Rebuking Level.

But you could certainly rebuke it.

Improved turning increass your level not your check.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTurning

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 05:28 PM
Improved turning increass your level not your check.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTurning

I know it does, but a level 1 with it still ain't commanding a 3 HD undead.

Runestar
2010-02-12, 07:27 PM
Will of the wisp, replace its feats with INA and flyby/improved attack.

Now, it can hit and run, dealing decent electricity damage and possibly negating damage (fighters can't match its speed, ranged attackers can't beat its AC, casters can't defeat its spell immunity).

Until they think about readying actions...:smallbiggrin: