Dragon Age IV: MARMALADE!

[FoE]

The fourth thread for discussing Dragon Age: Origins. And probably the last one, as the last thread had nearly died out.

Please spoiler any significant plot revelations.

The thread title, incidentally, comes courtesy of an enchanted Bann Teagan.

[Giggling Ghast]

Nugs are just about the definition of Ugly Cute (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UglyCute), aren't they? :smallsmile:

Human Lord Shield and Sword Warrior, by the way.

[Muz]

Last one until the expansion comes out, you mean. :smallwink:

[Zevox]

Last one until the expansion comes out, you mean. :smallwink:
Which is only a little over a month away at that. The thread will be slow until then, but I suspect it'll survive.

Zevox

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Nugs are just about the definition of Ugly Cute (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UglyCute), aren't they? :smallsmile:
They are indeed, especially when they make that adorable little squeak!

[Muz]

And they're incredible roasted. :smallcool:

[Kish]

Come on, come on, now Mister Klug. Are you on some kind of drug?

[Dienekes]

Ahh the nugs, immediately after they were described as edible I truly wanted to find what it tasted like.

[arguskos]

Ahh the nugs, immediately after they were described as edible I truly wanted to find what it tasted like.
I'm assuming they taste like chicken.

[Gralamin]

I'm assuming they taste like chicken.

Makes sense to me. However, I would like to point out something: Have you ever seen a Nug and Commander Shepard in the same place? Obviously, this means that Nugs are the only effective method to keep you safe from Commander Shepard.
For that matter, have you seen a Nug and the Archdemon in the same place? It seems the Nug might be some kind of zone of safety.

(Or I could be relying on wildly inaccurate and uncorrelated data points, and drawing crazy conclusions)

[arguskos]

Makes sense to me. However, I would like to point out something: Have you ever seen a Nug and Commander Shepard in the same place? Obviously, this means that Nugs are the only effective method to keep you safe from Commander Shepard.
For that matter, have you seen a Nug and the Archdemon in the same place? It seems the Nug might be some kind of zone of safety.

(Or I could be relying on wildly inaccurate and uncorrelated data points, and drawing crazy conclusions)
Nugs... Commander Shepard... Archdemons... you know, I think there's a conspiracy theory here if we look hard enough. :smallamused:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm assuming they taste like chicken.

Wrong. It's actually stated somewhere in the codex that their flavor is some sort of fusion of rabbit and pork.

[Gralamin]

Wrong. It's actually stated somewhere in the codex that their flavor is some sort of fusion of rabbit and pork.

Hmm, heres the nug codex entry.

The nug is an omnivore common to the Deep Roads, a hairless creature that is almost blind as well as completely docile. It spends most of its time wading in shallow pools as well as mud pits, feeding on small insects, worms, and (in a pinch) limestone and simple metals. Indeed, the digestive system of the nug is legendary, able to make a meal out of almost anything a nug finds on the cavern floors. Nugs reproduce rapidly, spreading into any niche within the Deep Roads they can find, and serve to support a variety of predators such as giant spiders and deepstalkers. So, too, do dwarves make meals out of them... nugs are, in the poorer slum portions of Orzammar, one of the most common sources of meat available. Some dwarves even domesticate the creatures, claiming to find the creature's high-pitched squeaks pleasing.
Doesn't seem to be there. Do you know where it may of been?

[The Rose Dragon]

Here you go. (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex:_Books_and_Songs#In_Praise_of_the_Humble_Nug )

[JeminiZero]

Makes sense to me. However, I would like to point out something: Have you ever seen a Nug and Commander Shepard in the same place? Obviously, this means that Nugs are the only effective method to keep you safe from Commander Shepard.
For that matter, have you seen a Nug and the Archdemon in the same place? It seems the Nug might be some kind of zone of safety.


Actually correlation is not causation. It could well be the other way around. Archdemons and Commander Shepard could be zones of safeties from nugs! :smalltongue:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Hmm, heres the nug codex entry.

Doesn't seem to be there. Do you know where it may of been?

It's not in the codex entry about nugs themselves. It's in a cultural bit. "In Praise of the Humble Nug," I think it's called, where the dwarven author claims that silly surfacers claim that nug tastes like "an unholy blend of pork and hare" or something along those lines.

[Gralamin]

Actually correlation is not causation. It could well be the other way around. Archdemons and Commander Shepard could be zones of safeties from nugs! :smalltongue:

I think You missed the point sir. Of course I know that correlation is not causation :smalltongue:

[Giggling Ghast]

They are indeed, especially when they make that adorable little squeak!

I like that after you give Leliana a nug, you can see him afterwards in camp. Snuffle, snuffle!


I think it's called, where the dwarven author claims that silly surfacers claim that nug tastes like "an unholy blend of pork and hare" or something along those lines.

Appropriate, considering they look like a cross between a rabbit and a pig.

[Drakyn]

Appropriate, considering they look like a cross between a rabbit and a pig.

Quite aardvark-y, too.

[Dienekes]

Wrong. It's actually stated somewhere in the codex that their flavor is some sort of fusion of rabbit and pork.

I'd eat that. That actually sounds delicious, I wonder if it'd be good in a stew.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The problem is that Orzammar cuisine tends to have a lot of nasty stuff in it. Deep mushrooms are common, but they make wine out of mosses and sometimes they brew their beer in sulfuric pools. Oghren mentions at the end that Orzammar ale tastes like dirt...because they put dirt in it. I think one thing all dwarf characters should be able to say is "THE FOOD IS AWESOME UP HERE!!!"

[Giggling Ghast]

The problem is that Orzammar cuisine tends to have a lot of nasty stuff in it. Deep mushrooms are common, but they make wine out of mosses and sometimes they brew their beer in sulfuric pools. Oghren mentions at the end that Orzammar ale tastes like dirt...because they put dirt in it. I think one thing all dwarf characters should be able to say is "THE FOOD IS AWESOME UP HERE!!!"

You wouldn't say that if you had to try Alistair's cooking in RL. :smalltongue:

On the subject of dwarves and Ugly Cute (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UglyCute) things, some of the dwarven females are kind of this trope. They're short and oddly-proportioned, but some of them are kind of adorable, like the one who wants to go to the Circle Tower … Dagna, I think?

Mind you, I prefer my females tall, brunette and voiced by Claudia Black.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

They have a new trailer up!

Velanna (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsalswMiokE)

Uh-oh...I wonder if the exchange is any different if you play as a Dalish yourself.

[JadedDM]

So, looking at this from a D&D perspective (I'm sorry, that's pretty much how I look at everything), she's basically a druid. I wonder if she retains the ability to animate trees after she joins you.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Does she join you? She seems more like an enemy to me.

[The Rose Dragon]

Does she join you? She seems more like an enemy to me.

According to the FAQ on Awakening, she is a potential party member. (http://dragonage.bioware.com/awakening/faq/#q1-5)

[Finn Solomon]

Mind you, I prefer my females tall, brunette and voiced by Claudia Black.

I agree so much that I want to use it in my signature. I hope you don't mind.

[Dhavaer]

Does anyone know if there's some kind of platinum or enhanced edition coming out? I want to know if I should buy it now or wait a while longer.

[Kish]

Don't we all?
No. No we do not.

I hope Velanna doesn't act the same way toward you regardless of your race, is all I have to say. She should treat an elvish PC very differently from a human one.

[Lifeson]

Is it just me, or does she look like an elvish, earthy replacement for Morrigan? :smallconfused:

[Cristo Meyers]

Is it just me, or does she look like an elvish, earthy replacement for Morrigan? :smallconfused:

Nope, I pretty much thought the exact same thing.

I just got rid of that annoying little harpy, the last thing I want to do is replace her.

[Dienekes]

I just got rid of that annoying little harpy, the last thing I want to do is replace her.

Cheers. That said, I'm only getting a vague vibe of the relationship between Morry and her. She at least, from this trailer anyway, seems like she'd be pro-elf or at least pro-something. Morry was just annoying.

[Cristo Meyers]

Cheers. That said, I'm only getting a vague vibe of the relationship between Morry and her. She at least, from this trailer anyway, seems like she'd be pro-elf or at least pro-something. Morry was just annoying.

From everything I understand, Valenna just really, really hates humans. Presumably they slaughtered her Dalish clan or something. Seems to be a lot of that going around. Maybe she had afternoon tea with Zathrian or something.

[Giggling Ghast]

I agree so much that I want to use it in my signature. I hope you don't mind.

Feel free. I'll even grant you a one-time exception from kidnappping. :smallbiggrin:

[mangosta71]

From everything I understand, Valenna just really, really hates humans.

Considering the way 90% of humans treat elves (in Ferelden, at least), it's a wonder all elves don't feel that way.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

True. It makes me wonder what kind of character I'll make for my "final playthrough," when I play the game in preparation for this. I think it'd be interesting to play as an elf, and engage in a debate with her about humanity's treatment of elves.

[Dixieboy]

Considering the way 90% of humans treat elves (in Ferelden, at least), it's a wonder all elves don't feel that way.I think you are confusing "90% of all people" with "The people in charge".

[FoE]

Opinions differ from place to place; most people have been fairly polite towards my elven main character. It would be unfair to say that all humans hate elves.


I think you are confusing "90% of all people" with "The people in charge".

And even then, not all the people in charge hated elves. King Cailan expressed concern about the elvish plight.

Bann Vaughan and his comrades were racist bastards, of course. But the kind of person who expresses an interest in molesting a woman's corpse isn't a particularly good person to begin with.

[Finn Solomon]

No. No we do not.

Heretic!

You know, I have to say out of all the romanceable characters in all the Bioware games, Morrigan is my absolute favourite. There's just something about a smart snarky woman who knows what she wants and isn't shy about it.

[Dienekes]

There's just something about a smart snarky woman who knows what she wants

You never got her to 90+ relationship did you?

[Tren]

You know, I have to say out of all the romanceable characters in all the Bioware games, Morrigan is my absolute favourite. There's just something about a smart snarky woman who knows what she wants and isn't shy about it.

Agreed. And besides a couple "kick the dog" sort of lines from her during Redcliffe and on rare occasions, I didn't find her to be that annoying. It could of course be the lovely voice of Claudia Black distracted me from the content of her dialogue, but eh.

[Finn Solomon]

You never got her to 90+ relationship did you?

Fine, so she got confused and retreated back into her shell. But that's what makes the relationship special, as you'd normally expect a classic defrosting ice queen. Instead you end up with something that makes me itching to get my hands on Dragon Age 2 so I can go after her and set her straight.

[Dienekes]

Fine, so she got confused and retreated back into her shell. But that's what makes the relationship special, as you'd normally expect a classic defrosting ice queen. Instead you end up with something that makes me itching to get my hands on Dragon Age 2 so I can go after her and set her straight.

And you didn't think that there would be a problem after getting her to the highest she can like you, while listening to her annoyingly evil dialogue, even allowing her to perform her ritual. That the fact that she still runs away from you with the theoretical power baby that she's still a catch, hmm?

[Finn Solomon]

And you didn't think that there would be a problem after getting her to the highest she can like you, while listening to her annoyingly evil dialogue, even allowing her to perform her ritual. That the fact that she still runs away from you with the theoretical power baby that she's still a catch, hmm?

Ah Dienekes, the path of true love is never easy. You gotta fight for it, even if it means fighting baby Cthulu.

[Dienekes]

Ah Dienekes, the path of true love is never easy. You gotta fight for it, even if it means fighting baby Cthulu.

Sure, I'd agree with that. I merely question the judgment of continuing to fight for someone who's made it blatantly clear that you mean less to them than said Cthulu baby.

But then, maybe I'm missing something. I've never been a romantic type. Perhaps if she didn't show herself to be stupid evil throughout most of the game I'd feel differently. Maybe, I sincerely doubt it.

[Avilan the Grey]

And you didn't think that there would be a problem after getting her to the highest she can like you, while listening to her annoyingly evil dialogue, even allowing her to perform her ritual. That the fact that she still runs away from you with the theoretical power baby that she's still a catch, hmm?

I don't think we played the same game. If you get to 100% with her she stops most of her evil comments (she stops griping about helping people) and personally I never understood why letting her do the ritual was the Evil Choice (tm). I think it is the best possible solution.

Admittedly she is even nicer if you get to 100% and only stays friends with her, but she is definitely a changed person either way.

[mangosta71]

Opinions differ from place to place; most people have been fairly polite towards my elven main character. It would be unfair to say that all humans hate elves.

And even then, not all the people in charge hated elves. King Cailan expressed concern about the elvish plight.

Bann Vaughan and his comrades were racist bastards, of course. But the kind of person who expresses an interest in molesting a woman's corpse isn't a particularly good person to begin with.

I'm not saying that the humans are outright hostile. But they clearly see elves as servants or, at least, inferiors. How do you feel when you know that the person you're talking to considers you less than them? Do you not feel anger and resentment? Even if they merely see you as different, which Morrigan clearly does, as her dialog in the forest has a different line for elves versus humans, do you not feel a little bit of sullenness?

Look at the cook and your mother's friend in the human noble origin, or the quartermaster in Ostagar. I'm sure I could find a lot more examples if I went through the game again. Loghain and Howe's solution to the "elven problem" was, rather than feeding the starving people inside the city, sending in the army to slaughter most of them and then sic slavers on the rest. In the Landsmeet, you're a hardened veteran - you've seen more battle than most of the nobles and all their armies combined - yet you get shouted down if you try to give those snot-nosed nobles a tactical appraisal of Ostagar because you're "just an elf".


I don't think we played the same game. If you get to 100% with her she stops most of her evil comments (she stops griping about helping people).

Admittedly she is even nicer if you get to 100% and only stays friends with her, but she is definitely a changed person either way.

Seems to me that a ruthless PC would encourage her nasty commentary as he gains her approval. Sadly, such is not the case.

[Avilan the Grey]

Seems to me that a ruthless PC would encourage her nasty commentary as he gains her approval. Sadly, such is not the case.

Actually that does not make sense. There is a reason why she is the only romance option willing to go to bed with you at only 60% approval rating:
She is doing it because it feels good and because she sees it as a way of controlling you.
The problem (for her) happens when you break through that ice by being a very decent person; you show her why she should care for other people's feelings, something she has not even considered before. This in turn makes her fall in love / become a very close friend despite her trying to fight it all the way.

[Ziren]

The problem that I have with the Morrigan relationship is that your own character has to do an 180° turn as well if you want keep her approval up. To initially gain her approval you have to be evil or at least a stoic. And later you have to say stuff like "Love is no weakness." for the least negative impact from all the dialogue options? Yeah, if one of my players would try to pull this stuff off in a P&P I'd call him out for playing out of character immediatly (Of course, I wouldn't let Morrigan have such a ridiculously spontanous character development anyway...).

[Avilan the Grey]

The problem that I have with the Morrigan relationship is that your own character has to do an 180° turn as well if you want keep her approval up. To initially gain her approval you have to be evil or at least a stoic. And later you have to say stuff like "Love is no weakness." for the least negative impact from all the dialogue options? Yeah, if one of my players would try to pull this stuff off in a P&P I'd call him out for playing out of character immediatly (Of course, I wouldn't let Morrigan have such a ridiculously spontanous character development anyway...).

I don't think I had that problem; all I did in the beginning was to talk about her life, admit that I thought that her way of life sounded nice, and give her a ton of jewelry. In fact, she will go up to 85-90% of approval just by gifts and personal quest alone.

[Kish]

I don't think we played the same game. If you get to 100% with her she stops most of her evil comments (she stops griping about helping people)
You didn't play the same game as me, either.

At 100 approval, she still complains every bit as much if you help people or, oh, don't let the Tevinter blood mage sacrifice a lot of elves to boost your Constitution. I'm trying to figure out why you'd think Morrigan's approval rating changes her interjections at all, and all I'm getting is, "The game must have been so close to over for you when she got to 100 that there was nothing left for Morrigan to complain about." This doesn't work terribly well, since there's so much jewelery early on that Morrigan is usually one of the first companions to get to 100 in my games, but it's the only explanation I can think of.

[Avilan the Grey]

You didn't play the same game as me, either.

At 100 approval, she still complains every bit as much if you help people or, oh, don't let the Tevinter blood mage sacrifice a lot of elves to boost your Constitution. I'm trying to figure out why you'd think Morrigan's approval rating changes her interjections at all, and all I'm getting is, "The game must have been so close to over for you when she got to 100 that there was nothing left for Morrigan to complain about." This doesn't work terribly well, since there's so much jewelery early on that Morrigan is usually one of the first companions to get to 100 in my games, but it's the only explanation I can think of.

(About the spoiler) I did not get a voice-acted complaint out of that. I might have gotten a slight approval drop, but it wasn't noticeable in that case since I don't remember it. And yes, Morrigan tends to be the first to reach 100 for me too.

[Starbuck_II]

You bribed her too much. :smallbiggrin:

[Douglas]

Jewelry? Why would you need jewelry? I got Morrigan to 85 approval purely through dialog before I even got to Lothering.

[Avilan the Grey]

Jewelry? Why would you need jewelry? I got Morrigan to 85 approval purely through dialog before I even got to Lothering.

Well yeah it is very easy to get high approval with dialogue with her. You don't even have to go all amoral or anything.

[Istari]

This line from the FAQ about Awakening worries me.

.5 – Will my items, armor, stats, etc transfer over if I import my character from Dragon Age: Origins? (Back to top)

Almost all items are imported with your character. The only exceptions are the Origins promotional items and DLC loot, which were meant for Origins alone.

Does that mean no Blood Dragon Armor? :smallfrown:

Oh, and
.8 – Who can I romance in Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening? (Back to top)

There are no romances options available in Awakening. The story is focused more on the mission at hand and the new threat to Ferelden.

No romances! How can you no put any romances in? Especially with Velena

[Dienekes]

I don't think we played the same game. If you get to 100% with her she stops most of her evil comments (she stops griping about helping people) and personally I never understood why letting her do the ritual was the Evil Choice (tm). I think it is the best possible solution.

Admittedly she is even nicer if you get to 100% and only stays friends with her, but she is definitely a changed person either way.

Yes, she's very changed until she has the chance to take the baby at which point you are no longer necessary and she leaves your ass. There are numerous ways to look at Morry, my personal view is that she is a manipulator and the ending seems to justify my views.

If you get her to 100, the most she can love an individual, and tell her it's too dangerous we have to kill the archdemon, she leaves. Fine, obviously something about the potential baby was better than me. It makes you wonder what.

If you give in, then she also leaves. Through my dialogue with her it's pretty clear that she does still harbor her stupid evil ideals. No idea how you avoided this, I sure didn't.

First, it's obvious that this is Flemeth's plan. No matter if you don't show Morry that Flemeth tries to betray her, she continues with a ritual to me this is a red flag right there. No matter what you feel about Morry, Flemeth was pretty evil in her own right. So why would Flemeth want the baby? I'd assume that it would most likely revolve around the child being her next form, however I cannot know for sure.

So now we have Morry following Flemeth's plan. Let's say she loves you, and you go through with the ritual. Then she still leaves. Why? The only reason I can think of is that she's going to raise it an a way that you would disapprove, or would use it in such a way. One's again, not a very good option, in my mind anyway. Sure, she feels regret from time to time, but you don't know if it's about you or what she's going to do to the kid. Let's assume it is about you, that only means that even after that she still has some lingering feelings she is still too caught up in her machinations to go and do anything about it.

[Green Bean]

Alternatively, if you do the ritual, you're about to be the most famous mofo in all of Ferelden; not only did you stop the Blight practically singlehandedly, but you survived killing the Archdemon. Maybe she figures all the attention won't be conducive to quietly raising a god-baby.

[Dienekes]

Alternatively, if you do the ritual, you're about to be the most famous mofo in all of Ferelden; not only did you stop the Blight practically singlehandedly, but you survived killing the Archdemon. Maybe she figures all the attention won't be conducive to quietly raising a god-baby.

Morry loves attention. As shown through numerous dialogues, the funniest one being with Zevran.

Also there are no video cameras last I checked. I don't think it'd be very hard for 1 more individual to go missing.

[Kish]

I also wonder if Claudia Black would take it as a compliment that the sound of her voice obliterates everything about the character she's playing except that said character is voiced by her. I sure wouldn't. :smalltongue:


No romances! How can you no put any romances in? Especially with VelenaConsidering that it's an expansion, not a sequel, "no new romances" is the best news I've seen about it yet, since it means my character still gets to stay with his/her main game romance; I was worried the expansion would do the NWN2/Mask of the Betrayer thing.

(To head off someone telling me this: Yes, I am aware that Origins romance partners aren't joinable in Awakening.)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So now we have Morry following Flemeth's plan. Let's say she loves you, and you go through with the ritual. Then she still leaves. Why? The only reason I can think of is that she's going to raise it an a way that you would disapprove, or would use it in such a way. One's again, not a very good option, in my mind anyway. Sure, she feels regret from time to time, but you don't know if it's about you or what she's going to do to the kid. Let's assume it is about you, that only means that even after that she still has some lingering feelings she is still too caught up in her machinations to go and do anything about it.
Maybe she doesn't want you to get hurt by the results of the ritual? It's supposed to protect you from death, but even if you don't die from the archdemon slaying, there would definitely be repurcussions if she stuck around. Say the Grey Wardens found out, and decided they needed to kill Morrigan to prevent what they believe to be the Archdemon from rising anew. She wouldn't want the Grey Wardens to hurt you for your part in it, so she leaves, allowing you to avoid the awkward questions about "How the hell did you survive?!"

[Irbis]

If you get her to 100, the most she can love an individual, and tell her it's too dangerous we have to kill the archdemon, she leaves. Fine, obviously something about the potential baby was better than me. It makes you wonder what.

Or that she didn't wanted to place you in danger.


If you give in, then she also leaves. Through my dialogue with her it's pretty clear that she does still harbor her stupid evil ideals. No idea how you avoided this, I sure didn't.

Like what? Oh, you mean reluctance to kill something unique. OMGEvil!


First, it's obvious that this is Flemeth's plan. No matter if you don't show Morry that Flemeth tries to betray her, she continues with a ritual to me this is a red flag right there. No matter what you feel about Morry, Flemeth was pretty evil in her own right. So why would Flemeth want the baby? I'd assume that it would most likely revolve around the child being her next form, however I cannot know for sure.

And destroy the only thing that made the body useful? :smallsigh: Think logically. Also, that 'evil' woman only saved Ferelden from certain doom. Thrice. OMGEvil! :smallsigh:


So now we have Morry following Flemeth's plan. Let's say she loves you, and you go through with the ritual. Then she still leaves. Why? The only reason I can think of is that she's going to raise it an a way that you would disapprove, or would use it in such a way.

You can think. Exactly.


One's again, not a very good option, in my mind anyway. Sure, she feels regret from time to time, but you don't know if it's about you or what she's going to do to the kid. Let's assume it is about you, that only means that even after that she still has some lingering feelings she is still too caught up in her machinations to go and do anything about it.

Or maybe, just maybe, she doesn't want to keep the child near someone bearing Darkspawn taint before it has all necessary immunities. Ever thought of that?

[Dienekes]

Maybe she doesn't want you to get hurt by the results of the ritual? It's supposed to protect you from death, but even if you don't die from the archdemon slaying, there would definitely be repurcussions if she stuck around. Say the Grey Wardens found out, and decided they needed to kill Morrigan to prevent what they believe to be the Archdemon from rising anew. She wouldn't want the Grey Wardens to hurt you for your part in it, so she leaves, allowing you to avoid the awkward questions about "How the hell did you survive?!"

Except that the only way to avoid this awkward line of question is to disappear. Which she did anyway. Really this raises the question of why weren't you severely questioned by the GW after the games conclusion. You really should have which would have resulted in Morry being chased anyway (I doubt Alistair would lie for her even if you would). It probably would have been easier to arrange for both of you to disappear right after the battle anyway. This is however, the best reason I've heard so far, so kudos for that.


Or that she didn't wanted to place you in danger.

How you figure? You're already going against the archdemon no matter what. Leaving you beforehand is about the most obvious way of putting you in danger as it takes away one of your best allies.


Like what? Oh, you mean reluctance to kill something unique. OMGEvil!

I was actually referring to dialogue throughout the game. Not trying to kill something unique is about the only time I can think of that she would be doing something actually decent. Well that and playing with a dog. But then, how can you not like playing with dogs?


And destroy the only thing that made the body useful? :smallsigh: Think logically. Also, that 'evil' woman only saved Ferelden from certain doom. Thrice. OMGEvil! :smallsigh:

Not only thing exactly. It was stated that the power of the new host correlates with the power Flemeth has when she swaps. Uber god baby would be a hell of a nice bonus. This is of course one possibility among many, however, if you're claiming that Flemeth wasn't evil, then we have a sever disagreement.


You can think. Exactly.

Of course I'm limited by what I can think. And as such I have to make my judgments based upon them, as are you and everyone else. Of course when asked about what she wants with the kid she avoids the question in a rather obvious manner further making me suspicious.


Or maybe, just maybe, she doesn't want to keep the child near someone bearing Darkspawn taint before it has all necessary immunities. Ever thought of that?

Actually yes, a friend of mine brought this one up when we were discussing the game. It seems pretty ridiculous as the Gray Warden's are shown to live for a decently long time, and the baby itself is already born of the taint.

That said, it only raises the question of what happens to Alistair's kids if you make him king, being tainted and all.

Now as to the no romance thing. It doesn't really bother me. I'm not really a romantic guy at all, and I can look at an interesting female npc and not want to jump on her right away. I could however be just weird.

[Dixieboy]

I'm fairly sure that you don't build immunity to the taint without exposure.

[Kish]

Except that the only way to avoid this awkward line of question is to disappear. Which she did anyway. Really this raises the question of why weren't you severely questioned by the GW after the games conclusion. You really should have which would have resulted in Morry being chased anyway (I doubt Alistair would lie for her even if you would).

"The Grey Wardens are asking questions. What do we tell them? [...] I'll just shrug and look stupid, I'm good at that." (paraphrased, from if Alistair is the father of Morrigan's Old God baby.)


Actually yes, a friend of mine brought this one up when we were discussing the game. It seems pretty ridiculous as the Gray Warden's are shown to live for a decently long time, and the baby itself is already born of the taint.

That said, it only raises the question of what happens to Alistair's kids if you make him king, being tainted and all.
If you romance Alistair, he tells you that Grey Wardens have very little fertility. That said, I'm shaking my head in disbelief at the idea that Morrigan didn't want the baby around you because Grey Wardens infect babies (or anyone) with darkspawn taint by casual contact. It's not a flu virus.

[Dienekes]

"The Grey Wardens are asking questions. What do we tell them? [...] I'll just shrug and look stupid, I'm good at that." (paraphrased, from if Alistair is the father of Morrigan's Old God baby.)

If you romance Alistair, he tells you that Grey Wardens have very little fertility. That said, I'm shaking my head in disbelief at the idea that Morrigan didn't want the baby around you because Grey Wardens infect babies (or anyone) with darkspawn taint by casual contact. It's not a flu virus.


Ieeh, thank you for reminding me all that really should have been spoilered, and now it is. Thank ya.

I never had Alistair do that so thank you for telling me. That does change the dynamic a bit, but really the questioning is glossed over quite a bit. I was hoping for more repercussions.
And as to my response on the taint my friend was using it as a reason not to raise the kid before the main since the main would die soon, not that he would somehow give the baby the taint.

[Kish]

And as to my response on the taint my friend was using it as a reason not to raise the kid before the main since the main would die soon, not that he would somehow give the baby the taint.
Yes, the "not a flu virus" was a response to what Irbis said.

Thirty years, while shortened, isn't exactly soon. I don't think that's the (or even a) reason either.

[Trixie]

How you figure? You're already going against the archdemon no matter what. Leaving you beforehand is about the most obvious way of putting you in danger as it takes away one of your best allies.

Um, what? She still takes part in battle then, if my memory serves me. She goes just before the victory feast.


Not only thing exactly. It was stated that the power of the new host correlates with the power Flemeth has when she swaps. Uber god baby would be a hell of a nice bonus. This is of course one possibility among many, however, if you're claiming that Flemeth wasn't evil, then we have a sever disagreement.

But why? Maybe the body just develops Fade immunity? If creating new host with better spirit gave Flemeth more power, she wouldn't have bothered with girls, she would have bound something like Witherfang to fetus and use that when it matured. She doesn't, ergo, that produces no good results.

And evil or not, it was Flemeth that saved Ferelden. Not you. All you did was to use tools she gave you. And not even once. That deserves a bit of credit, don't you think?


Of course I'm limited by what I can think. And as such I have to make my judgments based upon them, as are you and everyone else. Of course when asked about what she wants with the kid she avoids the question in a rather obvious manner further making me suspicious.

Except Morri is A) incapable of ritual (you need to be half-spirit, like Wynne or Flemeth for it) B) whatever Flemeth told her to use the Old God for wasn't ritual, as she didn't knew it existed then - she must have been planning something else.


Actually yes, a friend of mine brought this one up when we were discussing the game. It seems pretty ridiculous as the Gray Warden's are shown to live for a decently long time, and the baby itself is already born of the taint.

Purified from taint. It has been already infected by Taint once, risking second coming of Blight with the same AD is a bit... irresponsible, don't you think?


That said, it only raises the question of what happens to Alistair's kids if you make him king, being tainted and all.

It they get all stabby three generations from now, Teyrns will kick them off the throne, end of story. Plus, taint is going to be watered down eventually. Old God getting all stabby is a bit bigger problem.


I'm fairly sure that you don't build immunity to the taint without exposure.

If you haven't noticed, Darkspawn create Archdemons by exposure. Great idea.

[Dienekes]

@Trixie


Um, what? She still takes part in battle then, if my memory serves me. She goes just before the victory feast.

You say no to her the night before the march to Denerim, she leaves before the battle, no matter what her personal feelings toward you are.


But why? Maybe the body just develops Fade immunity? If creating new host with better spirit gave Flemeth more power, she wouldn't have bothered with girls, she would have bound something like Witherfang to fetus and use that when it matured. She doesn't, ergo, that produces no good results.

And evil or not, it was Flemeth that saved Ferelden. Not you. All you did was to use tools she gave you. And not even once. That deserves a bit of credit, don't you think?

Evil people can do great things. They do not always balance out. That said, I do not know what Flemeth is trying to do, mostly because we do not know what the child is capable of. I merely gave one example. Again, when you ask about the child Morry deliberately avoids the question.


Except Morri is A) incapable of ritual (you need to be half-spirit, like Wynne or Flemeth for it) B) whatever Flemeth told her to use the Old God for wasn't ritual, as she didn't knew it existed then - she must have been planning something else.

This presumes that Flemeth told her what she was planning which may or may not be the case. After finding Flemeth's grimoire she is more than capable of becoming half demon and immortal. And if she does not have it she is still doing Flemeth's dirty work.


Purified from taint. It has been already infected by Taint once, risking second coming of Blight with the same AD is a bit... irresponsible, don't you think?

If you haven't noticed, Darkspawn create Archdemons by exposure. Great idea.

Do you mind showing support for this? I assumed that the archdemon was tainted via the same way men and women were. I also wonder what possible exposure effects can be done via a GW if this is the case.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yes, she's very changed until she has the chance to take the baby at which point you are no longer necessary and she leaves your ass. There are numerous ways to look at Morry, my personal view is that she is a manipulator and the ending seems to justify my views.

(Snipping the rest)

The point is of course that she still carries out Flemeth's (now hers) plan, but she really regrets doing so. On the other hand that does not make her a b***h, since unlike romantic comedies real life often ends with the boy and the girl not being together. I actually find it very realistic that one of the parties in a relationship chooses not to pursue it despite his or her feelings, because (s)he priorities other things.

[LurkerInPlayground]

My personal view is that Morrigan is a forced plot point. You can't change her worldview or kill her because she will matter in Dragon Age 2. If she simply gave up the skills and ways of her mother, what would poor Bioware do?


And evil or not, it was Flemeth that saved Ferelden. Not you. All you did was to use tools she gave you. And not even once. That deserves a bit of credit, don't you think?
Eh. That's a stretch. She pretty much admits that nobody is going to follow her lead. Why would they? She's a demonic boogeyman from old wives tales.

Grey Wardens are respected. She didn't make the treaty or breed the goodwill necessary to use it.

[Dienekes]

(Snipping the rest)

The point is of course that she still carries out Flemeth's (now hers) plan, but she really regrets doing so. On the other hand that does not make her a b***h, since unlike romantic comedies real life often ends with the boy and the girl not being together. I actually find it very realistic that one of the parties in a relationship chooses not to pursue it despite his or her feelings, because (s)he priorities other things.

Very true, the fact that she doesn't drop everything in order to pursue a romance once stricken by "twu luv" does not make her a female dog. Being evil makes her that. I was merely using that as an example of where her priorities lie. You have either refused her bid for the baby or you are no longer necessary to get it anymore. She leaves, she doesn't try to help you in your time of need (if you refused her). She doesn't offer any explanation at all for what's happening or what she will do if you let her leave (if you do the ritual). Sorry if I don't feel the strings on my heart tug when I hear she has regrets about it sometimes. Deal with it, the choice is made. Same goes to the players who wish to go looking for her.

[mangosta71]

This presumes that Flemeth told her what she was planning which may or may not be the case. After finding Flemeth's grimoire she is more than capable of becoming half demon and immortal. And if she does not have it she is still doing Flemeth's dirty work.

ANY mage is capable of becoming an abomination. Morrigan doesn't need Flemeth's grimoire if she feels the inclination to do so.

Do you mind showing support for this? I assumed that the archdemon was tainted via the same way men and women were. I also wonder what possible exposure effects can be done via a GW if this is the case.

That's the thing. Men and women become tainted by darkspawn by exposure to their bodily fluids. They either master the taint (becoming Grey Wardens) or succumb to it (dying, or in the case of some women becoming Broodmothers). The process of creating an archdemon isn't spelled out exactly - all I recall from the game is that the dragons are asleep somewhere deep under the earth, and that darkspawn find them while they slumber and somehow transform them. There is definitely some sort of contact with the darkspawn prior to their being raised as ADs.

[Dienekes]

That's the thing. Men and women become tainted by darkspawn by exposure to their bodily fluids. They either master the taint (becoming Grey Wardens) or succumb to it (dying, or in the case of some women becoming Broodmothers). The process of creating an archdemon isn't spelled out exactly - all I recall from the game is that the dragons are asleep somewhere deep under the earth, and that darkspawn find them while they slumber and somehow transform them. There is definitely some sort of contact with the darkspawn prior to their being raised as ADs.

Aye, that's what I thought. And since you do not somehow gain immunity to the taint. And you are able to screw multiple people over the course of the game and not give them the taint, that's about as much bodily fluids you can give someone without directly bleeding into their mouths. It leads to the assumption that keeping the baby away from a GW so they don't get tainted as a bit ridiculous. GW would be outcasts among societies if it were true.

[mangosta71]

Well, you kind of do. Beyond the initial sickness of the Joining, GWs no longer have to worry about getting sick and dying when a bit of darkspawn blood splashes on them during battle the way other people do. It seems that the taint isn't concentrated enough in a GW to harm other people through contact. The children of GWs do not seem to bear the taint normally, so Morrigan's ritual presumably (aside from ensuring pregnancy) includes some manner of drawing the taint into the child. Given that, it's possible that it will be more sensitive to the presence of the taint, and risking one of the Old Gods in such a way could be seen as reckless.

[Dienekes]

Well, you kind of do. Beyond the initial sickness of the Joining, GWs no longer have to worry about getting sick and dying when a bit of darkspawn blood splashes on them during battle the way other people do. It seems that the taint isn't concentrated enough in a GW to harm other people through contact. The children of GWs do not seem to bear the taint normally, so Morrigan's ritual presumably (aside from ensuring pregnancy) includes some manner of drawing the taint into the child. Given that, it's possible that it will be more sensitive to the presence of the taint, and risking one of the Old Gods in such a way could be seen as reckless.

How you figure? Taint isn't shown to spread by GW contact except possibly through sperm and possibly blood (and if this is getting on your kid no matter how you slice it you fail at parenting). And if this is in any way true why wouldn't Morry say so? If it's a legitimate reason for the GW to not raise the kid why didn't she just say so? Even a halfarsed excuse like this is better than "Thou shalt not question about thine child!"

[FoE]

'Fraid I can't join in on the Awakenings discussion. I haven't even finished my first playthrough yet! :smalltongue:

Geez, there are a lot of young girls who are into Alistair. Watching some of his romance scenes on Youtube, I can see why. I thought of him as just a good friend, but even I swooned a bit after watching that kissing scene.

The funny thing is, after Leliana, I probably have the highest approval from Alistair. We're practically attached at the hip. So I already sort of know how to ... it wouldn't be hard for me to ... maybe I'll play a female character on my next time through ...

Dragon Age: Fuelling your bi-curious fantasies since 2008.

[Morty]

A question for the more optimization-savvy: how viable is an archer warrior? If I play DA:O again, I'll be probably with a female elf, and I'd like her to be an archer. However, I've already played a rogue and I'd like my playthroughs to be as unrepetitive as possible.

[mangosta71]

Archers benefit from some of the rogue talents (Lethality and Coup de Grace specifically), so a warrior won't be quite as effective as a rogue. Honestly, if you played a TWF rogue, the archer will be as different no matter which class you choose.

[Dixieboy]

... you can backstab with a bow? :smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

Alistair is annoying, but his dialogue with Morrigan is hilarious.

How viable is it to go all-Rogue for a party? I'm doing a TWF Rogue (though my last one, a Dwarf, couldn't take down the Orge, so now I'm Human Noble) so Zevran, Leilana and I guess Dog could be my party members. Or maybe Wynne (I've used Morrigan in my Mage playthough, on which I'm also stuck now but sod that). Enemies run at the lonely mage and then BAM, three Rogues leap from the shadows and gnaw their face off.

[mangosta71]

... you can backstab with a bow? :smallconfused:

Not backstab, but you get automatic criticals iirc.

[Dixieboy]

Not backstab, but you get automatic criticals iirc.

The text says automatic backstab as far as I recall.
Let me fire up dragon age.

Edit: Yup, Backstab.

[mangosta71]

Yeah, I think it does, too. But a backstab is just a guaranteed critical hit, and I'm pretty sure someone said that the talent applied to bows as well.

[Morty]

Hm. I guess I'll respecialize the City Elf Warrior into a Rogue and see what happens.

[FoE]

Rogues iz awesome. Since it's not as strong as the warrior, it demands a lot more strategy out of you. My favourite strategy is to use stealth, sneak up to groups and lay some traps in their path (or toss some grenades) before sneaking back to the group to lead a charge. Stealth saved my ass more times than I can count, especially in the Fade; it's the only way I got through the Mages Asunder.


Hm. I guess I'll respecialize the City Elf Warrior into a Rogue and see what happens.

Hey, fellow City Elf rogue! Welcome to the club.

One piece of advice: although I don't advocate going this route, if you spare Bann Vaughan and make a deal, stash yo' cash before going back to the Alienage.

Personally, I would just kill the bastard. That's what I did. Then I took the blame for it myself, without naming Soris.

[Cristo Meyers]

One piece of advice: although I don't advocate going this route, if you spare Bann Vaughan and make a deal, stash yo' cash before going back to the Alienage.

Personally, I would just kill the bastard. That's what I did. Then I took the blame for it.

"But then I wouldn't get to kill you...and I really want to."

My wife and I couldn't stop laughing when we saw that dialogue option. Probably because we both imagined it being said in a fake whiny voice.

I can never really think of any reason to take the money, even if you start to take the deal, it's rightly pointed out that Vaughn will likely purge the Alienage anyway.

[FoE]

I can never really think of any reason to take the money, even if you start to take the deal, it's rightly pointed out that Vaughn will likely purge the Alienage anyway.

That's how I reasoned it out. Even if I were willing to leave the women with Vaughan, how could I trust him not to come after me? Could I really expect to keep that cash? I was glad to see I was right.

That said, I might have accepted the offer if he'd let me take the girls. The second he said he was keeping him, my response was "I'm going to enjoy killing you."

[Morty]

Hey, fellow City Elf rogue! Welcome to the club.

One piece of advice: although I don't advocate going this route, if you spare Bann Vaughan and make a deal, stash yo' cash before going back to the Alienage.

Personally, I would just kill the bastard. That's what I did. Then I took the blame for it myself, without naming Soris.

Actually, I can't decide between City Elf and Dalish Elf. City Elf origin story is better but I don't know which'll be funnier to actually play.
And when I played the City Elf origin for the first time, my response was also "I'm going to enjoy killing you".

[Cristo Meyers]

Dalish elf seems to be better for starting an archer, but the origin is a horrible mix of Stupidity is the Only Option and But Thou Must!


That's how I reasoned it out. Even if I were willing to leave the women with Vaughan, how could I trust him not to come after me? Could I really expect to keep that cash? I was glad to see I was right.

That said, I might have accepted the offer if he'd let me take the girls. The second he said he was keeping him, my response was "I'm going to enjoy killing you."

I got a huge kick out of Shield Bashing them my first time through the origin.

"THIS is how you backhand someone!"

I figure you've already slaughtered everyone else in the place, might as well go for the hat-trick. Taking the money won't prevent anything and really doesn't help you a whole heck of a lot. You may be cash-poor in the early game, but you also really don't need much other than what you can get from critters or quests.

Does anyone know what the heck the various liquor and poison items in the estate are for? Aside from inflicting poisony death, I mean. I've never seen any quest event that lets you use them...

[Avilan the Grey]

Rogues iz awesome. Since it's not as strong as the warrior, it demands a lot more strategy out of you. My favourite strategy is to use stealth, sneak up to groups and lay some traps in their path (or toss some grenades) before sneaking back to the group to lead a charge. Stealth saved my ass more times than I can count, especially in the Fade; it's the only way I got through the Mages Asunder.

Never used traps, I just find it too much of a hassle to bother with.
Sneak / backstab / dirty fighting is the deal.

[Morty]

Yeah, I know that the Dalish Origin story is probably the worst one, but it does seem a better fit for an archer and I kind of like the idea of playing a person straight out of the forest in a civilized world.

[FoE]

Never used traps, I just find it too much of a hassle to bother with.
Sneak / backstab / dirty fighting is the deal.

Traps have saved my ass a couple of times. Remember that one really hard bandit fight in Lothering? Made a lot easier with traps to soften up the baddies before they get to you. Ditto for when those bounty hunters attack you in the Frostback Mountains. Also, the Fade, when I was on my lonesome without any transformations except the mouse.

But they're hard to use effectively. They're most useful in tight spaces when the enemies can't run around them; plus, you need to be able to "prepare the field" beforehand.

[Giggling Ghast]

You know, even if I wasn't willing to slay Flemeth to protect Morrigan … I would probably do it anyways. Not because she's an evil cow, but because it's there. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlorySeeker) That death animation is awesome.

[Philistine]

Hey, fellow City Elf rogue! Welcome to the club.

One piece of advice: although I don't advocate going this route, if you spare Bann Vaughan and make a deal, stash yo' cash before going back to the Alienage.

Personally, I would just kill the bastard. That's what I did. Then I took the blame for it myself, without naming Soris.

How much self-loathing would a City Elf have to have to not kill Vaughn? Especially after his crack about Why would anyone care that he put a few animals to their intended use? (Talk about your "Too Stupid to Live" moments - of all the things you could possibly say when trying to talk down someone who has just butchered his or her way through your entire palace guard, why would anyone say that?)

[Morty]

Hm. My Dalish Elf archer Rogue seems to be doing rather bad. I'm having trouble defeating the ogre at the top of the Ishal Tower.
And I'm almost convinced something's wrong there. Despite Alistair having Threaten on, enemies refuse to attack him. Once the Tower Guard with Taunt dies, the ogre focused on the Circle Mage and then on my character, ignoring Alistair. Same situation occured with the Shade in Korcari Wilds.

[arguskos]

Hm. My Dalish Elf archer Rogue seems to be doing rather bad. I'm having trouble defeating the ogre at the top of the Ishal Tower.
And I'm almost convinced something's wrong there. Despite Alistair having Threaten on, enemies refuse to attack him. Once the Tower Guard with Taunt dies, the ogre focused on the Circle Mage and then on my character, ignoring Alistair. Same situation occured with the Shade in Korcari Wilds.
That probably means the Mage and your Archer are building too much threat and Alistair just doesn't have enough. As far as I can see it, there is a hidden stat called Threat, which certain spells and talents affect. If you use a lot of damaging talents very rapidly, you'll build a lot of it, and enemies will target you more. Threaten (the talent) seems to just boost your threat some, but if other characters have a higher one (through using lots of high-threat spells/talents), it won't matter.

That's just what I've been able to figure out though, it's obviously not 100% accurate. My suggestion would be to not use any talents and let the tanks do whatever they will, then bust out the talents once the Ogre is well and truly hammering on the tanks. Hopefully, your threat will be low at that point, so you can start using your talents and hope the Ogre dies before it either runs out of tanks or notices you.

[Morty]

Oh, I managed beat it, it just too all my healing polituces and Alistair and the Circle Mage were down. The main problem, I think, was that the Tower Guard is mainly an archer, not a melee fighter.

[arguskos]

Oh, I managed beat it, it just too all my healing polituces and Alistair and the Circle Mage were down. The main problem, I think, was that the Tower Guard is mainly an archer, not a melee fighter.
Oh damn, it didn't give you the Soldier instead? I guess it probably saw you were a Rogue and gave you the Tower Guard, assuming you were a melee character. That's a shame. At least you beat it though! :smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

Nope. It only gives you the Soldier if you're a mage. I think the other reasons might be that a) Archery isn't very good and b) I reinstalled DA:O and haven't installed the patch yet.

[FoE]

I'm a rogue and I got the crossbow solider, but I managed to get through the Tower of Ishal OK. Granted, I knew what was coming and I'm a two-weapon rogue.


How much self-loathing would a City Elf have to have to not kill Vaughn?

The game does its best to convince you not to spare Vaugh, but there's no helping matters if you're a greedy bastard who cares only about himself. (And isn't too bright, to not figure out that Vaughn will betray you.)

[mangosta71]

Yeah, I would install the patch. If you don't have the archery fix, get that too. In the raw release form of the game, bows are even worse than two-handers.

[Morty]

I'm not sure if I have to install the patch again, but I'll do it just to be on the safe side. I'm not sure about the archery fix, I've heard it makes the game harder.

[arguskos]

I'm not sure if I have to install the patch again, but I'll do it just to be on the safe side. I'm not sure about the archery fix, I've heard it makes the game harder.
Not really. It makes archery good, but decent tactics on your part and that's not an issue.

[Dienekes]

I'm not sure if I have to install the patch again, but I'll do it just to be on the safe side. I'm not sure about the archery fix, I've heard it makes the game harder.

It does. It makes the times your surrounded by archers into worthwhile fights instead of laughable.

I'd still get it though, because it does help balance. And the above fights are so horribly easy.

[Voldecanter]

I Can't Wait until the Expansion comes out .......Morrigan I am comming for you !

[FoE]

Morrigan I am coming for you !

If you survived the final battle, I presume you already did. :smalltongue:

[Flarp]

The game does its best to convince you not to spare Vaugh, but there's no helping matters if you're a greedy bastard who cares only about himself. (And isn't too bright, to not figure out that Vaughn will betray you.)

Isn't the reward just... 50 silver? I mean, really, by the time you can get it back, it's not really worth it.

I'll admit, the game is really good at getting you pissed at Vaughn. The City Elf origins was the first time in an RPG that I've ever taken the "evil" option out of anger as opposed to just wanting to be an evil character (waking the sleeping guard and then killing him).

[Morty]

It does. It makes the times your surrounded by archers into worthwhile fights instead of laughable.

I'd still get it though, because it does help balance. And the above fights are so horribly easy.

I don't know. There are battles including archers that are pretty difficult, and if those archers were to start dealing more damage, it could get ugly. Still, I'll try.
EDIT: If I can find this mod that is, which I don't seem to be able to. Looks like it was removed and can't be downloaded anymore. :smallannoyed:

[Dienekes]

http://dragonage.gulbsoft.org/doku.php/hotfix/dexterity_hotfix_101

and I also endorse this one to help balance out other weapon styles.

http://social.bioware.com/project/852/

[Morty]

Interesting. Is it worth it to install both mods or only the latter one? I think I might do some experimenting with mods now that I'm in my third playthrough

[Cristo Meyers]

I Can't Wait until the Expansion comes out .......Morrigan I am comming for you !

Except she's not in the Expansion.

[Dixieboy]

Except she's not in the Expansion.
HELL YEA!

Ahem.

They can't just leave the baby of doom(tm) storyline though.

[Cristo Meyers]

HELL YEA!

Ahem.

They can't just leave the baby of doom(tm) storyline though.

Tell me about it :smallwink:

The leading rumor right now is that Morrigan and her child is going to figure pretty heavily in the sequel. Unfortunately, all we know for sure is that there's going to be a sequel. You're right, though, leaving that plot hook unfulfilled would be a major error.

Amazingly enough, the lack of Morrigan seems to be the least complained about thing concerning the expansion on the Bioware boards...#1 being the lack of the damn dog, #2 being the lack of romances.

[The Rose Dragon]

I won't have Mutt at my side in battle? Ain't that a shame.

[Cristo Meyers]

A shame? Sure, I like the dog too. Worthy of page after page of wrath-wishing upon the evil developers that are destroying this expansion by not putting the dog in there?

But then, I suppose that's what I get for daring to tread in some of these forums in the first place.

So far I only have two real issues with the way the expansion looks like it's going to turn out: first being the price, it's priced the same as a full game. Next is that instead of loading up a character that sacrificed themselves at the end of the game and just play as the Orleasian Warden character, if you carry over a sacrificed warden that character will mysteriously come back to life. So the only way to play the Orleasian Warden is to start a new game in the expansion.

[Dixieboy]

Wait, bringing you back in the "sequel" despite your death?
Aw c'mon Bioware, you are more original than that.

[Cristo Meyers]

Wait, bringing you back in the "sequel" despite your death?
Aw c'mon Bioware, you are more original than that.

Well, you don't have to export a character that made the sacrifice, I suppose. But still, I agree, you should be able to export such a character and not have them mysteriously survive. One of the big things about the expansion is that the choices you've made in the game will affect the expansion, but now if your character sacrificed themselves you're stuck with whatever the default choices were.

[Dixieboy]

Bringing in the Orlesian warden but keeping your dude's choices seems optimal to me.

But I'm no writer.

[Cristo Meyers]

No doubt, I even had a playthrough all ready to do just that.

Ah well, I've gotten more than my money's worth out of Dragon Age, sitting somewhere at around 5 playthroughs (my wife has around 7...). That's the most play I've gotten out of any game, even mega-classics like Chrono Trigger.

--
Completely unrelated, but in killing time browsing the net I just found out something.

The voice of Duncan? He's TMNT's Splinter.

[Dienekes]

first being the price, it's priced the same as a full game. Next is that instead of loading up a character that sacrificed themselves at the end of the game and just play as the Orleasian Warden character, if you carry over a sacrificed warden that character will mysteriously come back to life. So the only way to play the Orleasian Warden is to start a new game in the expansion.

This is the only things about the expansion that I have heard and have lowered my desire for it somewhat. I want my first dead playthrough to have meant something, not just for him to pop up again. Personally I would have liked to be given a choice with uploaded dead folk. Resurrect if you really want to play the guy again, or have all your actions carry over except with the new origin.

[arguskos]

Completely unrelated, but in killing time browsing the net I just found out something.

The voice of Duncan? He's TMNT's Splinter.
Flemeth was voiced by Kate Gulgrew (Janeway on Star Trek Voyager). Zathrian was voiced by Tuvok from Star Trek Voyager. Random, what you notice, yeah? (Also, I don't even LIKE ST: Voyager).

[Remmirath]

I'll stop lurking about this thread and jump in on the expansion talk, I think (gotta jump in somewhere, eh?). :smallbiggrin:

Whether or not I'll be annoyed about the price depends entirely on how large the expansion turns out to be. I never figured out where the '15 hour' figure they keep tossing about on the forums came from, but if they expect it to take you up 10 or more levels, I'm guessing it'd take more time than that (either that, or they're just padding the level cap, or it's going to be very accelerated levelling).

If it's a small expansion, however, the price will bother me. Basically, it'll bother me unless it's at least as large as some smaller games. I don't really blame them so much as the game market in general, though. Over-priced expansions seem to be the norm, unfortunately.

The sacrifice thing... I have no idea why they did that. It selfishly bothers me but little, because none of my characters to date have done the sacrifice and I'll likely play the expansion with one of them anyhow, but c'mon. Would it have been that hard to just transfer the choices? Are there people out there who actually want to play with a dead-but-not-really character? I suppose there must be. Or at least, they think there are.

I'm really not much of a romance-person, so the lack thereof doesn't bother me at all - so long as any characters you had a romance with in the last game don't die mysterious off-screen deaths or something, as that would be sort of bogus.
It should at least be on-screen. :smallamused:

[FoE]

The voice of Duncan? He's TMNT's Splinter.

Holy ****ing s***, that's awesome.

Big TMNT fan in my youth, me.


Isn't the reward just... 50 silver? I mean, really, by the time you can get it back, it's not really worth it.

It's thirty sovereigns. A fortune in the beginning.

[Cristo Meyers]

The figure I've been seeing the most for gameplay time is around 20-25 hours, and that's from the early reviewers, not Bioware. Considering I'll get at least three playthroughs out of it, I've not doubt I'll get my money's worth.


Flemeth was voiced by Kate Gulgrew (Janeway on Star Trek Voyager). Zathrian was voiced by Tuvok from Star Trek Voyager. Random, what you notice, yeah? (Also, I don't even LIKE ST: Voyager).

And Bhelen is Jon Arbuckle in the 2008 Garfield series. Finding out Duncan was the Splinter I grew up with was on the same level as finding out Minsc was Winnie the freakin' Pooh...

I'm probably far to amused by these connections...

[arguskos]

And Bhelen is Jon Arbuckle in the 2008 Garfield series. Finding out Duncan was the Splinter I grew up with was on the same level as finding out Minsc was Winnie the freakin' Pooh...

I'm probably far to amused by these connections...
Yeaaaaaaah, I was just amazed that Mark Hamil didn't voice anyone that I could recognize, given how many voice-over's he does.

[Cristo Meyers]

Yeaaaaaaah, I was just amazed that Mark Hamil didn't voice anyone that I could recognize, given how many voice-over's he does.

Pointing out Mark Hamill was the Joker usually gets me the same response that I get when I point out that The Rock was a Michael Bay film :smallbiggrin:

[arguskos]

Pointing out Mark Hamill was the Joker usually gets me the same response that I get when I point out that The Rock was a Michael Bay film :smallbiggrin:
But The Rock was good you see! Unlike all the rest of Michael Bay's failures to direct. :smallwink:

[Dienekes]

Yeaaaaaaah, I was just amazed that Mark Hamil didn't voice anyone that I could recognize, given how many voice-over's he does.

That would have made the game the most amazing game ever.

[ondonaflash]

So I know this will probably light up the Morrigan debate again, but am I the only one who really just suspects that Morrigan is raising the Archdemon child so she can take possession of its superpowered body a la Flemeth?

I mean, all the postulating and "No, Morrigan is Really a Good Person" whinging seems to ignore what, to me, seems like the obvious direction.

[Kish]

No, you're not the only one who suspects that.

Myself, I think it's meant to be ambiguous. That is, the player is meant to consider "Morrigan plans to become an Old God," "Morrigan plans to conquer Thedas at her godchild's side," and, "Morrigan wanted to save the Old God" as all possibilities.

[Dienekes]

So I know this will probably light up the Morrigan debate again, but am I the only one who really just suspects that Morrigan is raising the Archdemon child so she can take possession of its superpowered body a la Flemeth?

I mean, all the postulating and "No, Morrigan is Really a Good Person" whinging seems to ignore what, to me, seems like the obvious direction.

Go read pages 2-3.

Or in short, I don't trust her as far as I could throw her. Actually she seems fairly light. I don't trust her as far as I could throw her in her bear form.

[Kish]

If you're a warrior, you could probably throw her pretty far in her bear form. Try Stinging Swarm form.

[ondonaflash]

... That's the second time I've broken into the Arl of Denerim's estate and butchered the occupants....

[Cristo Meyers]

So I know this will probably light up the Morrigan debate again, but am I the only one who really just suspects that Morrigan is raising the Archdemon child so she can take possession of its superpowered body a la Flemeth?

I mean, all the postulating and "No, Morrigan is Really a Good Person" whinging seems to ignore what, to me, seems like the obvious direction.

Nope, my wife brought that up after the first playthrough. We both figure the kid is either for her or Flemeth.

[ondonaflash]

Morrigan wouldn't give the kid to Flemeth, unless she's working like seven layers of intrigue... which is not beyond the realm of possibility I suppose...

I'm just curious about what the respective Witches Wild are accruing their power for. They don't seem to be doing anything with it except... getting more power, and rescuing Grey Wardens who come back and kill them.

Of course I always felt like killing Flemeth was not as mean spirited as it could have been. "This won't stop me!" "I know. It's cool."

[Dienekes]

Morrigan wouldn't give the kid to Flemeth, unless she's working like seven layers of intrigue... which is not beyond the realm of possibility I suppose...

It may be a reference to if you do not give Morrigan Flemeth's grimoire. Then Morry is still working for Flemeth.


I'm just curious about what the respective Witches Wild are accruing their power for. They don't seem to be doing anything with it except... getting more power, and rescuing Grey Wardens who come back and kill them.

Of course I always felt like killing Flemeth was not as mean spirited as it could have been. "This won't stop me!" "I know. It's cool."

It seems like this. Flemeth wants two things 1) for the Darkspawn not to overrun the world. Even for a selfish evil ***** this would be something to shoot for. 2) the Old Gods baby for whatever reason. For both having a Grey Warden that owes you is a very nice step.

Now if you go to confront Flemeth well, not too much of a problem. If you kill her, she comes back in a weaker body, for certain, but she'll come back. If you die, oh well. You'll notice Morry is still out and around to keep going with the next Grey Warden who tries to confront the Archdemon. And now she knows that Morry's on to her and can plan accordingly. Or, she'll just wait another few hundred years or so for the next one. Immortals can do that a lot easier than normal people, so I understand.

[Giggling Ghast]

I know Flemeth could swap bodies, but can Morrigan? Let's keep in mind that Flemeth was an abomination and possession is pretty much a demon's forté. Morrigan may be evil, but she's no abomination. And I'm not sure she'd be willing to become one.

And even if Morrigan could do the same, could she prolong her life that way? Morrigan said it was only because of the demon that Flemeth could survive so long. Her physical body aged, but her soul remained immortal.

[Dienekes]

I know Flemeth could swap bodies, but can Morrigan? Let's keep in mind that Flemeth was an abomination and possession is pretty much a demon's forté. Morrigan may be evil, but she's no abomination. And I'm not sure she'd be willing to become one.

She has the grimoire so yes, theoretically she can. As to if she'd be willing to become one? I do not know. From Flemeth's possession it looks as if there was no downside for Flemeth. Just lots of power. Morry might do it for power.


And even if Morrigan could do the same, could she prolong her life that way? Morrigan said it was only because of the demon that Flemeth could survive so long. Her physical body aged, but her soul remained immortal.

Again, with the grimoire, yes. As the spells to do it were the first and only thing Morry told us she read.

[Cristo Meyers]

That's all assuming the Black Grimoire is actually what Morrigan says it is. She's the only one that can read it, so you'd have no way of knowing if she's lying to you

Personally, I think it's entirely possible that the whole thing was engineered by the both of them. They flat out say the killing Flemeth won't actually destroy her and we only have Morrigan's word that the spells in the Grimoire do what they say they do. Kill Flemeth, and the only thing that actually happens is she gets ejected from her body early, leaving her free to possess the body of, say, a newborn with the power of an Old God...

Get the Black Grimoire, Morrigan feeds you a BS story about how you need to save her from her mother, you go and slay Flemeth, only succeeding in ejecting her from her withered body, give her real grimoire to Morrigan for safe keeping, and when the bouncing baby abomination is born Flemeth possesses it.

[Giggling Ghast]

She has the grimoire so yes, theoretically she can. As to if she'd be willing to become one? I do not know. From Flemeth's possession it looks as if there was no downside for Flemeth. Just lots of power. Morry might do it for power.

Abominations surrender their human selves, though, and become insane, murderous horrors. Remember Uldred's speech? "I am Uldred and not Uldred. I am more than he was." Flemeth seems relatively calm, but it's clear from the discussions with Morrigan that she still loves killing people.

What you see is not Mortal Flemeth; that's the end result of her merging with a powerful demon centuries ago. Would someone as fiercely independent and focused on survival as Morrigan become an abomination? I doubt it.


Again, with the grimoire, yes. As the spells to do it were the first and only thing Morry told us she read.

I'm still not sure she can become immortal by swapping bodies. Morrigan said the demon kept Flemeth from dying of old age, but her body still aged. Morrigan is not an abomination and has no demon to expand her lifespan.

I don't believe that Flemeth's death was part of her plans; if so, she could have killed herself. And even if she couldn't do the deed, why try to bribe you with the true Grimoire?

[Irbis]

So I know this will probably light up the Morrigan debate again, but am I the only one who really just suspects that Morrigan is raising the Archdemon child so she can take possession of its superpowered body a la Flemeth?

And you ignore the fact that A) Morrigan isn't an abomination so she doesn't have the power to swap bodies; B) If she tried to become one, the end result in 99% of the cases if the gibbering lump of flesh we can see in the Tower (or even the demon outright displacing the host); C) Displacing the soul will result in empty human body with no power whatsoever. QED :smallamused:

On an unrelated note, let me hijack this thread with this comic:

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/053/9/3/DA___Cookie_Goggles_by_aimo.jpg

[Dienekes]

And you ignore the fact that A) Morrigan isn't an abomination so she doesn't have the power to swap bodies;

And yet has the grimoire of all the big bad magic of someone who became a pure spliced abomination and would likely have how to do it in it's pages.


B) If she tried to become one, the end result in 99% of the cases if the gibbering lump of flesh we can see in the Tower (or even the demon outright displacing the host);

Again, Flemeth and the grimoire. It's the big unknown key of this.


C) Displacing the soul will result in empty human body with no power whatsoever. QED :smallamused:

So? She won't be using her body anymore, let it rot.

That said, she doesn't need to simply body swipe to do grave and terrible things with a God-baby. And our fears about it is only compounded with her "Do not question about the baby!" and "I am going to leave where you cannot interfere with my raising of the god child though I have been clearly evil since day 1!" mentalities.


On an unrelated note, let me hijack this thread with this comic:

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/053/9/3/DA___Cookie_Goggles_by_aimo.jpg

Ahh Sten and cookies, one of the most perfect matches in the game. I however do not get the cat thing.

[Morty]

Ahh Sten and cookies, one of the most perfect matches in the game. I however do not get the cat thing.

Leliana claims to have seen him play with a cat once and calls him a "softie" because of that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

He was helping it train! :smallwink:

[Gralamin]

Wouldn't possessing it ruin the entire point? Its a human child with the soul of an old god. What that exactly does to the child is very questionable, but presumably, displacing the soul would ruin the entire point.

[Dienekes]

Wouldn't possessing it ruin the entire point? Its a human child with the soul of an old god. What that exactly does to the child is very questionable, but presumably, displacing the soul would ruin the entire point.

no idea because Morry doesn't tell you a thing about it even if you ask. We do know specifically that the more powerful the person being possessed the more powerful you are post-possession. Maybe the god-baby makes it actually immortal so that they have no need of more bodies. Maybe the god baby is so super powerful that it makes Morry or Flemeth have enough firepower to conquer Fereldan. No idea, she wouldn't tell us. Not that I think she would explain her plots in any case.

[FoE]

You can't imagine how disappointed I was that the fate of Ferelden cannot be left up to my dog. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpIkavGX5iY) :smalltongue:


http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/053/9/3/DA___Cookie_Goggles_by_aimo.jpg

That's pretty damn cute. Let us never speak of this again. :smallbiggrin:

You know, that artist does some very amusing Dragon Age comics … aside from the naughty stuff, which I'm not even going to look at.

EDIT: And I looked anyway. It's actually sweet and not TOO racy. Not anymore than the game itself, anyways.


Leliana claims to have seen him play with a cat once and calls him a "softie" because of that.

It's more like "softeeee". :smalltongue:

Not the cutest thing Leliana says, but it's certainly in the top 10.

[zeratul]

Fine, so she got confused and retreated back into her shell. But that's what makes the relationship special, as you'd normally expect a classic defrosting ice queen. Instead you end up with something that makes me itching to get my hands on Dragon Age 2 so I can go after her and set her straight.

You see, I originally I liked the character of morrigan, but once I got her approval to 100% my reaction was something to the effect of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pvWhJNLwg0)

Also, did anyone else do the thing with morrigan before the final battle, after having broken up with her? It made that whole thing seem reeeeeeally awkward. But mildly amusing at the same time :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

You see, I originally I liked the character of morrigan, but once I got her approval to 100% my reaction was something to the effect of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pvWhJNLwg0)

Also, did anyone else do the thing with morrigan before the final battle, after having broken up with her? It made that whole thing seem reeeeeeally awkward. But mildly amusing at the same time :smalltongue:

Why?

ALso... Yes, I did. Not awkward at all, since we both knew what was at stake. (I didn't want to die, for one thing).

[The Rose Dragon]

Leliana claims to have seen him play with a cat once and calls him a "softie" because of that.

She also calls him a softie because she saw him collecting flowers.

Which he claims were medicinal, but we all know Sten is simply a sucker for beautiful floral arrangements.

[Trixie]

You know, that artist does some very amusing Dragon Age comics … aside from the naughty stuff, which I'm not even going to look at.

What, you mean like this one? :smallamused:


http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/037/f/1/DA___Performance_by_aimo.jpg

[JeminiZero]

I think more like this:

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/269/b/2/DA___Hot_Ferelden_Nights_by_aimo.jpg

And maybe this:

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/316/c/1/DA___The_Dress_by_aimo.jpg

[FoE]

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/037/f/1/DA___Performance_by_aimo.jpg

That's not naughty, that's cute.


I think more like this:

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/269/b/2/DA___Hot_Ferelden_Nights_by_aimo.jpg

Getting warmer, but still off by a margin.


http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/316/c/1/DA___The_Dress_by_aimo.jpg

Mmmm, wet frocks. :smalltongue:

Now, those aren't half as naughty as Curiosity or The Manual. Gaze upon those if you wish to see true horror ...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It's funny. When I first heard that "wet frocks" thing, I thought they were talking about "wet frogs" implying Alistair's immaturity by still being fascinated by something that's really only interesting to little boys.

[Green Bean]

Interesting blog post (http://blog.bioware.com/2010/03/01/dragon-age-the-revelation-comic/) from Bioware today, with an outline of a cut scene (that's also a cutscene) for Wardens with high influence with Morrigan. Looks like it'll be adding fuel to the "Is Morrigan Evil?" fire.

[ondonaflash]

... Dammit Bioware... undermining a perfectly good "Morrigan is an Unrelenting Bitch" theory...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'd say it's pretty good evidence that there's more going on in Morrigan's head involving this ritual than just her own allegedly selfish purpose.

On the other hand though, it definitely makes the ritual sound much more dark, and therefore may make people even more wary about the potential harm it could cause.

[ondonaflash]

New page of the Penny-Arcade comic, Awakenings, is up.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

GAH! I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS GAAA...*cough* I mean EXPANSIOOOOOOOOOOONNN!!!! *bounces up and down with excitement*

[Trixie]

Interesting blog post (http://blog.bioware.com/2010/03/01/dragon-age-the-revelation-comic/) from Bioware today, with an outline of a cut scene (that's also a cutscene) for Wardens with high influence with Morrigan. Looks like it'll be adding fuel to the "Is Morrigan Evil?" fire.

Huh, funny it come just after her comics were posted here.

On a side note, I hate Aimo now. That amount of luck and skill can't be a work of human, no matter how good one. That's it, Morrigan escaped not to Orlais, but to Earth! :smalleek:

Anyway, this scene pretty much laid to rest any of the "Morrigan wanted to do evil stuff with the kid" nonsense. With how much she regrets it? Sorry, as of now, the only reason she went away I can think of was to protect the Warden, not to LOLWUT PWNZOR THE WURLD! Ahem. :smalltongue:

[ondonaflash]

Oooo, Argument Starter: Leliana: Prophet of the Maker? Or Coo-Coo Pants?

[Avilan the Grey]

Oooo, Argument Starter: Leliana: Prophet of the Maker? Or Coo-Coo Pants?

Irrelevant. Sexy french bard? Relevant.

[Trixie]

Oooo, Argument Starter: Leliana: Prophet of the Maker? Or Coo-Coo Pants?

Huh? Have I missed something? :smallconfused:

[Green Bean]

Huh? Have I missed something? :smallconfused:

Leliana follows you because she says she had a vision from the Maker. Do you think it's true, or did she hallucinate it?

[Avilan the Grey]

Leliana follows you because she says she had a vision from the Maker. Do you think it's true, or did she hallucinate it?

Personally I don't think she did hallucinate it. She might misinterpret what the dream meant, but I am sure she had it. Her ideas are very appealing though and unless my character is a templar, I think he or she would see the use of trying to push this view of the Maker.

[Dragor]

It's great to see BioWare working with the community and producing some fantastic stuff. Hope that Gaider keeps working with Aimo, they're a great team.

[Cristo Meyers]

... Dammit Bioware... undermining a perfectly good "Morrigan is an Unrelenting Bitch" theory...

David Gaider has been doing that since day one. He's an excellent writer, but unfortunately he didn't tell the story that he wanted to. According to him every rationalization Loghain puts forward for his actions is true and correct despite the only evidence of any of it coming from Loghain himself...

[Name_Here]

David Gaider has been doing that since day one. He's an excellent writer, but unfortunately he didn't tell the story that he wanted to. According to him every rationalization Loghain puts forward for his actions is true and correct despite the only evidence of any of it coming from Loghain himself...

Really? Because most of the justifications I heard were just... wrong.

I mean hanging the king out to die valiantly would be fine if it resulted in victory or an orderly retreat to a better position. But it didn't it resulted in an absolute rout that left the Circle in shambles, and the Fereldan Army crippled.

The claim that the Alienage would be unholdable is also absolutely laughable. I fought through that entire city and the only place that was still standing strong against the Darkspawn was a severely weakened Alienage.

Honestly at no point do they show that Loghain is anything more than a deluded fool.

[Cristo Meyers]

Really? Because most of the justifications I heard were just... wrong.

I mean hanging the king out to die valiantly would be fine if it resulted in victory or an orderly retreat to a better position. But it didn't it resulted in an absolute rout that left the Circle in shambles, and the Fereldan Army crippled.

The claim that the Alienage would be unholdable is also absolutely laughable. I fought through that entire city and the only place that was still standing strong against the Darkspawn was a severely weakened Alienage.

Honestly at no point do they show that Loghain is anything more than a deluded fool.

As I said, Gaider just didn't tell the story apparently he intended to, although I think the entire package is better for it. I don't think Loghain would be nearly as strong a character or the story as good otherwise. Loghain is infinitely more tragic this way and, let's face it, beating him is infinitely more satisfying.

[Name_Here]

As I said, Gaider just didn't tell the story apparently he intended to, although I think the entire package is better for it. I don't think Loghain would be nearly as strong a character or the story as good otherwise. Loghain is infinitely more tragic this way and, let's face it, beating him is infinitely more satisfying.

Oh very true nothing was more satisfying than beating Loghain down and executing him myself.

I'm just wondering how any professional writer could fail so badly. I mean at every turn Loghain is shown to be an incompetent idiot who can take any bad situation and turn it into a complete and total FUBAR situation.

[Cristo Meyers]

Oh very true nothing was more satisfying than beating Loghain down and executing him myself.

I'm just wondering how any professional writer could fail so badly. I mean at every turn Loghain is shown to be an incompetent idiot who can take any bad situation and turn it into a complete and total FUBAR situation.

I imagine the editors probably had something to do with it. The comic a few posts back was apparently originally a scene that was cut from the game.

[Dienekes]

Interesting blog post (http://blog.bioware.com/2010/03/01/dragon-age-the-revelation-comic/) from Bioware today, with an outline of a cut scene (that's also a cutscene) for Wardens with high influence with Morrigan. Looks like it'll be adding fuel to the "Is Morrigan Evil?" fire.

This, this thing here, gave me more interest in Crazy Morry's character than the entire bloody game.

Also makes me wonder what exactly is so evil about the ritual and why Flemeth wanted her to do it, or why she would do it if Flemeth is dead and you are still not friendly with her. Also why she would leave her friend before the battle anyway.
Edit= And also what would have happened if Alistair hated you. Who would she have the conversation with, what changes, ect.

[Kish]

David Gaider has been doing that since day one. He's an excellent writer, but unfortunately he didn't tell the story that he wanted to. According to him every rationalization Loghain puts forward for his actions is true and correct despite the only evidence of any of it coming from Loghain himself...
I find that hard to believe. You see, if you use the toolset to browse what the characters say, you find instructions to their voice actors on how to say them. If you spare Loghain's life, he has a dialogue where he tells--someone, I forget who--that he would have saved Cailan if he could have. The instructions to his voice actor there go, "He really believes this. It's not true, but he believes it." (Emphasis mine.)

So, I would say that either Gaider was deliberately yanking people's chains when he said that every rationalization Loghain offers is true and correct, or the next question we should be asking is, "Who had the authority to overrule David Gaider for writing Loghain?"

[Cristo Meyers]

I find that hard to believe. You see, if you use the toolset to browse what the characters say, you find instructions to their voice actors on how to say them. If you spare Loghain's life, he has a dialogue where he tells--someone, I forget who--that he would have saved Cailan if he could have. The instructions to his voice actor there go, "He really believes this. It's not true, but he believes it." (Emphasis mine.)

So, I would say that either Gaider was deliberately yanking people's chains when he said that every rationalization Loghain offers is true and correct, or the next question we should be asking is, "Who had the authority to overrule David Gaider for writing Loghain?"


Entirely possible, I've just seen it claimed on the DA Bioware boards repeatedly. Admittedly, I've yet to see this comfirmed by Gaider or any of the other writers.

To me, though, what the writer claims is utterly irrelevant once the story is written. The story, as written, doesn't support much, if any, of Loghain's rationalizations, and Gaider (or any of the writers) can claim otherwise until the cows come home but if it can't be supported by what's actually in the story...

[Kish]

If you've never seen Gaider actually say it himself, I'd put it all down to Telephone Game, helped along by a sizable dose of wishful thinking on the part of Loghain's fan club.

[mangosta71]

This, this thing here, gave me more interest in Crazy Morry's character than the entire bloody game.

Also makes me wonder what exactly is so evil about the ritual and why Flemeth wanted her to do it, or why she would do it if Flemeth is dead and you are still not friendly with her. Also why she would leave her friend before the battle anyway.
Edit= And also what would have happened if Alistair hated you. Who would she have the conversation with, what changes, ect.

Or if you'd dropped him for the secret character (has it been long enough for us to stop spoilering/whiting his name yet?).

Maybe it's just me reading too much into her, but Morrigan seems pretty torn about performing the ritual during the conversation at the end in the game as is. At least, for a male protagonist. She was more adamant about the necessity on my female mage game.

[FoE]

Oooo, Argument Starter: Leliana: Prophet of the Maker? Or Coo-Coo Crazy Pants?

Who's to say her vision isn't real? My character might have questioned it once … but all the things he's done, it's hard to believe that some divine providence wasn't at work.

Loghain has a fan club? Madness.


Interesting blog post (http://blog.bioware.com/2010/03/01/dragon-age-the-revelation-comic/) from Bioware today, with an outline of a cut scene (that's also a cutscene) for Wardens with high influence with Morrigan. Looks like it'll be adding fuel to the "Is Morrigan Evil?" fire.

That's very sweet … and very sad.

It makes my decision post-Landsmeet a little easier to bear.

[Dienekes]

Or if you'd dropped him for the secret character (has it been long enough for us to stop spoilering/whiting his name yet?).

Maybe it's just me reading too much into her, but Morrigan seems pretty torn about performing the ritual during the conversation at the end in the game as is. At least, for a male protagonist. She was more adamant about the necessity on my female mage game.

I think it was based upon her approval rating with you, she shows some emotion about it the closer to 100 you were.

I think, could be misremembering.

[Cristo Meyers]

Loghain has a fan club? Madness.


He's a pretty classic example of the kind of do-whatever-it-takes anti-hero that's been so popular in recent memory, the fact that Cailan rubs a lot of people the wrong way doesn't hurt matters.

[The Rose Dragon]

He's a pretty classic example of the kind of do-whatever-it-takes anti-hero that's been so popular in recent memory, the fact that Cailan rubs a lot of people the wrong way doesn't hurt matters.

Why does Cailan rub a lot of people the wrong way? He's a lovable idiot. He has no idea what he's in for, and you can see that he is gonna fall hard soon (though I didn't think he was gonna fall that soon), but he is trying his best for everyone.

If he had lived longer, he might have screwed up more, but as he stands, there is little reason to dislike him.

[Cristo Meyers]

Why does Cailan rub a lot of people the wrong way? He's a lovable idiot. He has no idea what he's in for, and you can see that he is gonna fall hard soon (though I didn't think he was gonna fall that soon), but he is trying his best for everyone.

If he had lived longer, he might have screwed up more, but as he stands, there is little reason to dislike him.

I think it's because he's such an idealistic, naive person. He seems like exactly the kind of hero we'd expect in older comics and stories, before the whole darker and edgier trend took over.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I personally felt sorry for Cailan after playing through the game a few times. I think the reason he rubs people the wrong way is because he doesn't listen to anybody. He doesn't listen to Loghain, who despite his grievances against Orlais, does have a point that he seems to be relying on the Grey Wardens too much. He doesn't listen to Duncan, who tells him several times to wait for more reinforcements from Arl Eamon in Redcliffe and the Grey Wardens of Orlais.

They see him as suicidally overconfident, so assured he'll get to be a hero of epic proportions that he overlooks solid tactical reasoning, and it gets him killed. In short, I think people would like Cailan more if he was more humble and willing to listen to other peoples' advice.

[Cristo Meyers]

I personally felt sorry for Cailan after playing through the game a few times. I think the reason he rubs people the wrong way is because he doesn't listen to anybody. He doesn't listen to Loghain, who despite his grievances against Orlais, does have a point that he seems to be relying on the Grey Wardens too much. He doesn't listen to Duncan, who tells him several times to wait for more reinforcements from Arl Eamon in Redcliffe and the Grey Wardens of Orlais.

Actually, fighting the Blight marks the first time that Cailan ever refused to come around to Loghain's way of thinking, according to Anora.



They see him as suicidally overconfident, so assured he'll get to be a hero of epic proportions that he overlooks solid tactical reasoning, and it gets him killed. In short, I think people would like Cailan more if he was more humble and willing to listen to other peoples' advice.

Except the plan they use was Loghain's hammer-and-anvil attack.

[Kish]

Also, that doesn't work at all when those people like Loghain, whose picture is in the dictionary under "Antonyms: Humble and Willing to Listen to Other peoples' Advice." If I were to speculate, I would say it has more to do with Loghain being the villain and Cailan being a decidedly not-villainous character who must be bad for Loghain to be anything other than monstrous.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Now I'm confused. I see Cailan as a nice, if slightly misguided man. I don't get why people would hate him. He doesn't get enough screentime to be hated.

[Dienekes]

Now I'm confused. I see Cailan as a nice, if slightly misguided man. I don't get why people would hate him. He doesn't get enough screentime to be hated.

He's stupid and he's annoying, ergo i dislike him. Not too hard to comprehend if you start thinking like me (or more precisely like a jackass).

Mostly it's that one line of his (bore with strategies) that made me hope he would die so that the rule could go to anyone else. And from the backstory it sounds like it carries over to the rest of his kingship as well.

As for Loghain, he's at least an interesting nutjob. I won't defend anything he does, but he's fun to watch work.

[FoE]

He's a pretty classic example of the kind of do-whatever-it-takes anti-hero that's been so popular in recent memory, the fact that Cailan rubs a lot of people the wrong way doesn't hurt matters.

Cailan may have been a bit naive, but he was basically a good man. Yes, his strategy failed, but how could he account for betrayal by his father's best friend? It could have worked, had it not been for Loghain's treachery. Even if the Blight didn't end there, at least the darkspawn would have been dealt a serious blow.

Oh yes, Loghain's great at "doing whatever it takes." He's also a colossal f***-up whose plans go laughably awry.

Granted, there were some factors he couldn't account for: Flemeth's intervention, Connor's deal with the Desire Demon, Wynne surviving the Battle at Ostagar, etc.

But in the end, his only crowning achievement was murdering the son of his best friend and nearly eliminating the Grey Wardens, the only warriors who can actually end the Blight. As for as my character's concerned, Loghain deserves to burn in whatever hell the Maker reserves for traitors and turncoats, if there is such a place.

[The Rose Dragon]

But in the end, his only crowning achievement was murdering the son of his best friend and nearly eliminating the Grey Wardens, the only warriors who can actually end the Blight. As for as my character's concerned, Loghain deserves to burn in whatever hell the Maker reserves for traitors and turncoats, if there is such a place.

Of course, he didn't know that they meant "only" literally.

[Dienekes]

Of course, he didn't know that they meant "only" literally.

Let's be clear here, Loghain makes a lot of assumptions that kick him in the arse by the end of the game. That others could stop a blight. That the people would follow him if he made himself regent. That no one would notice how bloodthirsty his allies were. That no one would notice the slave trade he had set up. That he could trust an apostate with an assassination attempt.

Like I said, insane, but fun to watch.

[Cristo Meyers]

Cailan may have been a bit naive, but he was basically a good man. Yes, his strategy failed, but how could he account for betrayal by his father's best friend? It could have worked, had it not been for Loghain's treachery. Even if the Blight didn't end there, at least the darkspawn would have been dealt a serious blow.

As I'm fond of saying: Cailan's one mistake was trusting Loghain.


Oh yes, Loghain's great at "doing whatever it takes." He's also a colossal f***-up whose plans go laughably awry.

I.E: declaring yourself "regent" in a land where the nobles choose their ruler rather than just let the wildly popular Queen rule...

Who would have thought that usurping the rights of the landed gentry wouldn't sit well with half of them?


Granted, there were some factors he couldn't account for: Flemeth's intervention, Connor's deal with the Desire Demon, Wynne surviving the Battle at Ostagar, etc.

Uldred he couldn't have predicted, and apparently he only meant to keep Eamon occupied with the poisoning and revive him when it was all over with.

It was one of those non-lethal assassination attempts...



But in the end, his only crowning achievement was murdering the son of his best friend and nearly eliminating the Grey Wardens, the only warriors who can actually end the Blight. As for as my character's concerned, Loghain deserves to burn in whatever hell the Maker reserves for traitors and turncoats, if there is such a place.

No doubt, and that's what makes him such a tragic character. The man was a hero on par with Maric or even Calenhad himself, and yet he single-handedly does more damage to his beloved Fereldan than the Blight. Watching him fall so far is a major part of what makes the story so interesting.

[Kish]

Uldred he couldn't have predicted, and apparently he only meant to keep Eamon occupied with the poisoning and revive him when it was all over with.

Erm. Where are you getting this?
Eamon survived due to the intervention of a desire demon and recovered due to the Ashes of Andraste. I see no reason to think Loghain's plan didn't involve him dying and, in fact, no evidence that Loghain, without the Ashes, could have cured Eamon if he had wanted to.

(Setting aside the matter of whether Loghain could have/should have predicted that a mage who said, "I want your support to go over the heads of the Chantry and the leader of the Circle" wasn't strictly trustworthy.)

[Cristo Meyers]

Erm. Where are you getting this?
Eamon survived due to the intervention of a desire demon and recovered due to the Ashes of Andraste. I see no reason to think Loghain's plan didn't involve him dying and, in fact, no evidence that Loghain, without the Ashes, could have cured Eamon if he had wanted to.

Another one of those unsourced comments from the writers, mostly I brought it up to illustrate that even if Loghain didn't intend death, his actions are, at best, completely idiotic.

[Giggling Ghast]

You know, going through this game again, even if I wasn't willing to kill Marjolaine to protect Leliana, I'd probably kill her just to silence that irritating voice and that grating accent. :smallyuk:

You had generally good voice acting, Bioware, but that was a bit of a stumble.

[The Rose Dragon]

You know, going through this game again, even if I wasn't willing to kill Marjolaine to protect Leliana, I'd probably kill her just to silence that irritating voice. :smallyuk:

Yet you let Leliana live?

[arguskos]

You know, going through this game again, even if I wasn't willing to kill Marjolaine to protect Leliana, I'd probably kill her just to silence that irritating voice and that grating accent. :smallyuk:

Good voice acting, Bioware, but a bit of a stumble on that one.
AUGHSOTRUEGOD. I HATE Marjolaine's voice acting so much. Then again, it's probably intentional (so you hate her anyways, and kill her for giggles).

[Giggling Ghast]

Yet you let Leliana live?

Leliana has a beautiful voice. What's wrong with it? :smallconfused:


AUGHSOTRUEGOD. I HATE Marjolaine's voice acting so much.

Indeed. And it's not just because she's an Orlesian, because I don't mind Lady Isolde's voice, even though her accent is very thick. It's the combination of that accent and that voice that makes me cringe.


Then again, it's probably intentional (so you hate her anyways, and kill her for giggles).

True. Though I didn't like her much to begin with. And I don't need much of an excuse to kill someone who really deserves it.

[Dragor]

Yeah, BioWare really weren't subtle with the whole Orlais = France thing. Then again, in their defence, if they were real Frenchwomen doing English, then it would be very heavily accented and even more hard to understand and possibly annoying (despite being authentic). I prefer an annoying fake French accent to a properly heavily accented one, to be honest.

That's not to let Marjolaine get away with that voice crime, though...

[Name_Here]

I personally felt sorry for Cailan after playing through the game a few times. I think the reason he rubs people the wrong way is because he doesn't listen to anybody. He doesn't listen to Loghain,

Am I the only one who thinks this is completely and totally justified by the fact that Loghain is an idiot? Beginning to end the entire game is you cleaning up Loghain's mess and yet Cailan should have listened to him? If they already had a plan why continue to debate over it?


who despite his grievances against Orlais, does have a point that he seems to be relying on the Grey Wardens too much. He doesn't listen to Duncan, who tells him several times to wait for more reinforcements from Arl Eamon in Redcliffe and the Grey Wardens of Orlais.

Except the only battle we see is a purely defensive one of the Darkspawn attacking his force. It's possible that Cailan was waiting for reinforcements before going on the offensive while refusing to retreat and let the Darkspawn rampage throughout his country.


They see him as suicidally overconfident, so assured he'll get to be a hero of epic proportions that he overlooks solid tactical reasoning, and it gets him killed. In short, I think people would like Cailan more if he was more humble and willing to listen to other peoples' advice.

The only problem with his plan was Loghain. His decision to have the Grey Wardens light the tower was exactly the right one and his tactics had handily won 3 battles with the Darkspawn.

I personally put him under the heading of Bright but Lazy Strategy wise because he can still come up with a successful plan even though he doesn't like listening to the minutia of Loghain.

[Cristo Meyers]

Yet you let Leliana live?

Leliana's accent is legitimate. Can't speak for Marjolaine, though.

[The Rose Dragon]

Leliana has a beautiful voice. What's wrong with it? :smallconfused:

I hated Leliana's voice. I mostly skipped her dialogue because I couldn't stand listening to her.

Except when she's singing that song. I don't know whether you can skip it or not, because I never tried to.

[Trixie]

Who's to say her vision isn't real? My character might have questioned it once … but all the things he's done, it's hard to believe that some divine providence wasn't at work.

Except she did took something normal and warped it into zealot vision. If there is someone deserving to be called providence, it's Flemeth :smallamused:


He doesn't listen to Loghain, who despite his grievances against Orlais, does have a point that he seems to be relying on the Grey Wardens too much.

Yeah, relying on anti-Spawn specialists during the Blight was idiotic thing to do.

Except, NOT.


http://lh3.ggpht.com/_THRVNyZ8xf0/S47QmZqn6WI/AAAAAAAAAhY/IoEYH04vOtU/1267646489190.jpg


He doesn't listen to Duncan, who tells him several times to wait for more reinforcements from Arl Eamon in Redcliffe and the Grey Wardens of Orlais.

Both aren't actually coming, and you just said he was relying on them too much, anyway.


They see him as suicidally overconfident, so assured he'll get to be a hero of epic proportions that he overlooks solid tactical reasoning, and it gets him killed. In short, I think people would like Cailan more if he was more humble and willing to listen to other peoples' advice.

He was young. And he was humble like hell. No matter who you play, even when it is evil trash from Alienage or Dust Town, he makes a point to warmly greet the newcomer PC, even when you respond with offensive racial slur to his call. Duncan, of all people, is offended then, yet Cailan tells him he understands and that he will try to improve relations with elves/dwarves after the battle.


He's stupid and he's annoying, ergo i dislike him. Not too hard to comprehend if you start thinking like me (or more precisely like a jackass).

Yeah, everyone young and polite is annoying/stupid if he greets you personally and cares about well-being of his troops :smallsigh:


Mostly it's that one line of his (bore with strategies) that made me hope he would die so that the rule could go to anyone else. And from the backstory it sounds like it carries over to the rest of his kingship as well.

Becuse Loghain, and everyone supporting him in this, was idiot. King, especially young, isn't there to plan tactics. His job is to bolster his troops, oversee matters, and carry out the plan of battle. In a terms easier to understand - do you see president of any modern nation commanding troops on the battlefield? Nope, he will go to them, shake hands, then return home. He isn't supposed to command, even if he is former officer.

Look, Loghain, as a Cailan's chief of staff, is cretin. He isn't supposed to run after him, and bother him, he is supposed to make a few plans, then let the king pick one. Then improve it based on his output. And it seems he did that - when they finally speak Cailan already knows what Loghain will propose. So, in effect, Loghain was disrupting the king's activities, basically telling him to micromanage, wasting time of both army commanders. That isn't responsible, that's stupid. Never mind his vitriolic hate of Orlesians and the fact that he was the one who forced the issue of not waiting.


That others could stop a blight.

To be fair, GWs kept that secret for some weird reason.


That the people would follow him if he made himself regent.

He was Teyrn, basically, a prince, second only to Cailan. Oh, and famous general and Queen's father. I'd say he was well justified in this regard, only convenient time of king's death took his support away.


That no one would notice the slave trade he had set up.

It's not like he was selling humans.


That he could trust an apostate with an assassination attempt.

That is, someone with no place to run, entirely depending on him. That's pretty reliable, I'd say.


I.E: declaring yourself "regent" in a land where the nobles choose their ruler rather than just let the wildly popular Queen rule...

But Regents do that anyway. It's not like he was displacing her or something :smallconfused:


Who would have thought that usurping the rights of the landed gentry wouldn't sit well with half of them?

Where he did that?


Uldred he couldn't have predicted, and apparently he only meant to keep Eamon occupied with the poisoning and revive him when it was all over with.

But he actually encouraged Uldred.

As for Eamon - did you people actually read my RtO LP? :smallsigh:

Loghain wanted Cailan and Eamon dead (and Orlesians off Ferelden) for a very specific reason, and that reason was the source of his treachery. Not Darkspawn, not Cailan's boredom, not Wardens, it was their post-battle political plan. Cailan, Eamon, Teegan, Couslands, all had better claim to the throne than his daughter, so he offed them (or tried to). He did all these sloppy moves because that was all the formerly very loyal general could prepare on such a short notice.

[FoE]

Except she took something normal and warped it into zealot vision. If there is someone deserving to be called providence, it's Flemeth.

The Witch of the Wilds wasn't looking too godly when I stuck a sword in her head. :smallamused:


He was young. And he was humble like hell. No matter who you play, even when it is evil trash from Alienage or Dust Town, he makes a point to warmly greet the newcomer PC, even when you respond with offensive racial slur to his call. Duncan, of all people, is offended then, yet Cailan tells him he understands and that he will try to improve relations with elves/dwarves after the battle.

Yeah, everyone young and polite is annoying/stupid if he greets you personally and cares about well-being of his troops :smallsigh:

I totally agree with you. I grew to like Cailan after he greeted me at the gates of Ostagar and expressed concern about the death of my parents at Highever/the plight of the city elves. It may not seem like much, but coming from someone who'd led a sheltered life in his father's shadow, it was impressive.

He was a good man. I don't know why people can't see that.

[sihnfahl]

It may not seem like much, but coming from someone who'd led a sheltered life in his father's shadow, it was impressive.
He's still leading a bit of a sheltered life. Anora's running things, more or less, and had instructed Cailan's guards to keep him from seeing what's going on in the Alienage.

Female elf from the alienage. Nice statement.

C: "Might I ask how you came to travel with Duncan?"
Me: "I killed the son of an arl after he *censored* my best friend."
C: "......"
D: "I ... would not have put it that bluntly. There are things, your majesty, going on in the alienage you are unaware of."

Or something to that affect.

[Dienekes]

He was a good man. I don't know why people can't see that.

Who says we don't? Hell of the nobility he's probably the nicest and most well intentioned.

He also took no interest in tactics or politics, even though he is the leader of an army/state. If he was nice, kind, well intentioned, and actually took an interest in his job my character would back him until the day he died (well my good playthrough anyway).

Edit: actually if he had his personality completely unchanged in about any other position in the game I would have hated it when he died.

And @ trixie about the job of a king. That's actually a bit incorrect, most works of the medieval era claim that the king's most important task is to understand and oversee the development of battle and defenses of a nation.

Maciavelli places this at first importance while Erasmus placed it as second.

[The Rose Dragon]

C: "Might I ask how you came to travel with Duncan?"
Me: "I killed the son of an arl after he *censored* my best friend."
C: "......"
D: "I ... would not have put it that bluntly."

You know, you can use the word "rape" in GitP.

[FoE]

C: Might I ask how you came to travel with Duncan?
Me: I killed the son of an arl after he raped my best friend.
C: You ... what?
D: I would not have put it that bluntly, Your Majesty. There are things, your majesty, going on in the alienage you are unaware of.

You get that with the male elf as well. In both cases, you fail to reach Shianni before she is raped. :smallfrown:

[The Rose Dragon]

You get that with the male elf as well. In both cases, you fail to reach Shianni before she is raped. :smallfrown:

I think the only way to avoid that is to not play a City Elf.

[Cristo Meyers]

I think the only way to avoid that is to not play a City Elf.

Then it's just Soris' bride. The events of the other Origins still happen.

Nah, City Elf or no, Vaughn gets a stabbing.

[FoE]

I think the only way to avoid that is to not play a City Elf.

No, all the Origin stories still happen in the game regardless of which character you pick. Vaughan still drags off Shianni, Tamlen still becomes a darkspawn, Arl Howe still slaughters the Couslands and Bhelen still betrays his brothers. (Don't know much about the Mage or Dwarven Commoner origins.) The 'X' factor is Duncan's involvement.

[The Rose Dragon]

Then it's just Soris' bride. The events of the other Origins still happen.

Nah, City Elf or no, Vaughn gets a stabbing.

Of course, if you're not a City Elf, stabbing him becomes much more lucrative.

[Kish]

No, all the Origin stories still happen in the game regardless of which character you pick. Vaughan still drags off Shianni, Tamlen still becomes a darkspawn, Arl Howe still slaughters the Couslands and Bhelen still betrays his brothers. (Don't know much about the Mage or Dwarven Commoner origins.) The 'X' factor is Duncan's involvement.
Jowan still is identified as a blood mage and flees, and Jarvia still takes over the carta in Dust Town while Rica becomes Bhelen's mistress.

[FoE]

Of course, if you're not a City Elf, stabbing him becomes much more lucrative.

But you don't save the girls and Soris gets carted off to the dungeons. That ultimately won me over to playing a City Elf on my first playthrough.

[Cristo Meyers]

No, all the Origin stories still happen in the game regardless of which character you pick. Vaughan still drags off Shianni, Tamlen still becomes a darkspawn, Arl Howe still slaughters the Couslands and Bhelen still betrays his brothers. (Don't know much about the Mage or Dwarven Commoner origins.) The 'X' factor is Duncan's involvement.

Talk to Soris, he never mentions Shianni, just his bride. Admittedly, he seems a bit shell-shocked.

Re the Dwarf Commoner:

Jarvia's prison, there's the dwarf imprisoned who talks about his friend in the other cell that didn't make it, the dead dwarf is widely considered to be the dwarf commoner


Of course, if you're not a City Elf, stabbing him becomes much more lucrative.

And how :smallamused:

It was the one less-than-good act I let my all-out good character do.

[Kish]

Talk to Soris, he never mentions Shianni, just his bride. Admittedly, he seems a bit shell-shocked.

He says Shianni hasn't been the same since the interrupted wedding. He doesn't specifically mention her being abducted, though, and he likely doesn't know for certain that she was actually raped, since he never saw her between the abduction and your rescuing him, and he was in the dungeon for months after Vaughan returned her to the alienage.

[Trixie]

He also took no interest in tactics or politics, even though he is the leader of an army/state. If he was nice, kind, well intentioned, and actually took an interest in his job my character would back him until the day he died (well my good playthrough anyway).

Again, he isn't supposed to make plans, he is there to make decisions. It's a job for his advisors and generals.


And @ trixie about the job of a king. That's actually a bit incorrect, most works of the medieval era claim that the king's most important task is to understand and oversee the development of battle and defenses of a nation.

It is 'T'.

And first, Ferelden, with its meritocracy and equality of genders isn't medieval Europe, far from it, especially seeing how much "power" nobles there have. Second, from where you did get that? History is full of genrals, condotierres, captains and conquistadors who clearly were in command, not the king.

It was all well when king had military talent, but even then, he was rarely commander of more than a tiny portion of his forces at a time, and he rarely commanded it all in person. He was, at best, overseeing the course of battle and committing reserves where needed. Even then, he did it to keep the reins (and glory) in his hand, to not make his generals too strong, too confident. Travelling to battlefield costed time and money then, big amounts of both.

Times of good kings fighting on the battlefield died with Alexander the Great. See any English king commanding in Hundred Years War? Who, according to you, commanded Templars, Hospitaliers and Teuton Virgin Mary Knights? Kings? How about Venetian Republic? It owned a big hunk of territory. Italian Condotierres, Spanish Viceroys, Russian Boyars, Polish Hetmans, Czech Hejtmans, and dozens more all were high ranked commander titles and commanded instead, or overseen by the king. These guys had to master more than whacking people, you know?


Maciavelli places this at first importance while Erasmus (I believe) placed it as second.

Machiavelli also has a few things to say about the quality of your subordinates. Did you read him? I did, original version in fact. The Prince was about claiming (and keeping) power, not about micromanaging everything. It is entirely possible to follow it without ever commanding any troops.

[FoE]

Talk to Soris, he never mentions Shianni, just his bride. Admittedly, he seems a bit shell-shocked.

He doesn't know that Shianni was raped in the City Elf storyline either. As Shianni tells you afterwards, Soris and the others just think she got "roughed up."

I wonder: who appears to you in the other storylines while going through the Gauntlet?

[The Rose Dragon]

He doesn't know that Shianni was raped in the City Elf storyline either. As Shianni tells you afterwards, she and the others just think she got "roughed up."

Of course, he was there when it was occurring. Or right after it occurred.

He'd have to be unbelievably dense to not realize what was going on.

[FoE]

Of course, he was there when it was occurring. Or right after it occurred.

He'd have to be unbelievably dense to not realize what was going on.

What does he see? Shianni sprawled on the floor with Vaughan and his goons standing around her? It's not like you enter the room with Vaughan on top of her, and Soris isn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, if you hadn't noticed.

Or maybe he's being willingly ignorant. Maker knows I'd try to put that situation out of my mind. That ****'s bad enough to give you nightmares, if the Archdemon weren't readily supplying them.

[The Rose Dragon]

I wonder: who appears to you in the other storylines while going through the Gauntlet?

Tamlen, Teryn Cousland, Jowan. Never got quite that far with the dwarves, but I would assume Trian and Leske.

In fact, checking it with Dragon Age Wikia confirms it.

EDIT: I'm more curious about what happens during the Alienage quest if you're a human who did not rescue Soris. Shianni's not exactly the type of person who will just give you even a begrudging welcome without that sort of good deed.

[Trixie]

Of course, he was there when it was occurring. Or right after it occurred.

He'd have to be unbelievably dense to not realize what was going on.

And speaking on that - am I the only one offended with Bioware's choice of starring/co-starring (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/2/27/City_Elf.JPG) people on faux DA poster featuring City Elf origin? :smalltongue:

[FoE]

And speaking on that - am I the only one offended with Bioware's choice of starring/co-starring (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/2/27/City_Elf.JPG) people on faux DA poster featuring City Elf origin? :smalltongue:

Anora gets a main cast credit? She must have a good agent. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

If you're anything but an alienage elf (even an elf mage), Shianni isn't terribly welcoming when you arrive at the alienage in any event.

[The Rose Dragon]

If you're anything but an alienage elf (even an elf mage), Shianni isn't terribly welcoming when you arrive at the alienage in any event.

Still, she's much more hostile to a human than she is to an elf.

I don't know about the dwarfs. I should finish a dwarven playthrough sometime. Right after I finish Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2.

[Dienekes]

Again, he isn't supposed to make plans, he is there to make decisions. It's a job for his advisors and generals.

And he shows no interest in doing even that.


It is 'T'.
Fair enough, finger slipped on the shift. If it annoys you so much I'll try not to do it again.


And first, Ferelden, with its meritocracy and equality of genders isn't medieval Europe, far from it, especially seeing how much "power" nobles there have. Second, from where you did get that? History is full of genrals, condotierres, captains and conquistadors who clearly were in command, not the king

I never said he had to be the big brains behind the operation. I said he should care enough to participate and understand what's going on. He doesn't at all in governance and from what we've seen in game of him in war is that he simply wants glory and doesn't seem to care how he gets it.


It was all well when king had military talent, but even then, he was rarely commander of more than a tiny portion of his forces at a time, and he rarely commanded it all in person. He was, at best, overseeing the course of battle and committing reserves where needed. Even then, he did it to keep the reins (and glory) in his hand, to not make his generals too strong, too confident. Travelling to battlefield costed time and money then, big amounts of both.

Times of good kings fighting on the battlefield died with Alexander the Great. See any English king commanding in Hundred Years War? Who, according to you, commanded Templars, Hospitaliers and Teuton Virgin Mary Knights? Kings? How about Venetian Republic? It owned a big hunk of territory. Italian Condotierres, Spanish Viceroys, Russian Boyars, Polish Hetmans, Czech Hejtmans, and dozens more all were high ranked commander titles and commanded instead, or overseen by the king. These guys had to master more than whacking people, you know?

Very true, doesn't refute anything I've said (or at least tried to get across, Heaven knows I'm not always the most clear). Of course Cailen obviously didn't try to stop his general from being too strong but I can hardly blame him for having a naive soul. One of my problems is that Cailen as you even say here "had to master more than whacking people" yet we have no evidence that he tries to master anything at all. He doesn't even pretend to do anything in the state, doesn't know or care about tactics, and has shown to have poor taste in picky subordinates. He better be the world's best negotiator or he pretty much fails at being a monarch.


Machiavelli also has a few things to say about the quality of your subordinates. Did you read him? I did, original version in fact. The Prince was about claiming (and keeping) power, not about micromanaging everything. It is entirely possible to follow it without ever commanding any troops.

Of course I've read him (personally I enjoyed Discourse of Livy but that's neither here nor there). And I would disagree that you can follow him without commanding troops since several of his major theories were directly supposed to bring military power back into the hands of kings and rulers and away from the mercenary generals. As well as using mercenaries in general to defend a state. This was one of the central premises of his work. He did place emphasis on good subordinates as well, but to have good working knowledge on tactics to do what I have tried to describe earlier.

[Trixie]

Anora gets a main cast credit? She must have a good agent. :smalltongue:

Yeah, where's Sten!? I think someone is going to... :smallamused:


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7614/stendisapproves.jpg

Morrigan would be content, tho'.


And he shows no interest in doing even that.

In doing what? Preparing the plan with Loghain? It isn't his job, and still, when Loghain shows the plan later, Cailan exactly know what is going to happen. Either plan was crude, or Loghain bored him with details before he finished the draft.

King isn't there to review detail #5367, especially when it turns out 5 minutes later that you picked wrong position so the battle is moved 500 m to the east and detail becomes completely irrelevant to the plan.


Fair enough, finger slipped on the shift. If it annoys you so much I'll try not to do it again.

It doesn't bother me, but on the 'net, generally, lowercasing uppercase nicks isn't exactly a compliment.


I never said he had to be the big brains behind the operation. I said he should care enough to participate and understand what's going on. He doesn't at all in governance and from what we've seen in game of him in war is that he simply wants glory and doesn't seem to care how he gets it.

But he did understand. Remember last meeting? Loghain says: You hold the line, and Cailan fluently responds: And you'll attack from the rear and side, eh? I see. See above, plan was crude or Cailan grasped instantly without being told.

As for governance - he had Anora and Eamon for that. He, as he is young, and lacks experience, focuses on PR and diplomacy. And, if RtO is to be believed, he made a huge gains there. So huge Loghain offed him for his trouble.


Very true, doesn't refute anything I've said (or at least tried to get across, Heaven knows I'm not always the most clear). Of course Cailen obviously didn't try to stop his general from being too strong but I can hardly blame him for having a naive soul.

Yeah, why he didn't put the kingdom's savior and his father's right hand in prison? :smallsigh:

And you're wrong. He did almost limited Loghain to just Teyrn, for what Loghain offed him. Cailan survives the battle = no more Loghain's claims to the throne anymore.


One of my problems is that Cailen as you even say here "had to master more than whacking people" yet we have no evidence that he tries to master anything at all.

His personal correspondence, and word of Eamon, Anora and Loghain.


He doesn't even pretend to do anything in the state, doesn't know or care about tactics, and has shown to have poor taste in picky subordinates. He better be the world's best negotiator or he pretty much fails at being a monarch.

Funny you mention that part about diplomacy and negotiation... :smallamused:

He knows about warfare and state enough to make decisions, yes, he pushes them to his lackeys, but that's what they're for, and he is still young. How do you know the "step back, watch how people who actually know how to do it do it" isn't a sign of wisdom? :smallamused:


Of course I've read him (personally I enjoyed Discourse of Livy but that's neither here nor there). And I would disagree that you can follow him without commanding troops since several of his major theories were directly supposed to bring military power back into the hands of kings and rulers and away from the mercenary generals.

It only says what choices are good to make, such as: if besieged, purge dissenters, keep others happy. That's hardly Wast Point tactic. Il Principe deals with strategy, geography, morale and logistics, it never pursues tactics seriously. The only thing Cailan disregarded there was: Never use allied troops as the only way to achieve victory, if the ally has something to gain by betraying you:

Machiavelli also warns against using auxiliary forces, troops borrowed from an ally, because if they win, the employer is under their favor and if they lose, he is ruined. Auxiliary forces are more dangerous than mercenary forces because they are united and controlled by capable leaders who may turn against the employer.

And:

Machiavelli observes that most men are content as long as they are not deprived of their property and women. A prince should command respect through his conduct, because a prince that is highly respected by his people is unlikely to face internal struggles.

Passes second part, loses the first, but he tried to keep it secret.


As well as using mercenaries in general to defend a state. This was one of the central premises of his work.

Incorrect:

Machiavelli stands strongly against the use of mercenaries. He believes them useless to a ruler because they are undisciplined, cowardly, and without any loyalty, being motivated only by money. Machiavelli attributes the Italian city states’ weakness to their reliance on mercenary armies.

Not a big fan of condotierres, here. Ever heard of Sacco di Roma? It was a big black mark on their usefulness.

Also, note that at the time Prince was written, it was detested as a set of advice to evil man without morals, as only deplorable people would follow it. Cailan did all the 'right' stuff, it isn't his fault he backed down from the more 'evil' parts.


He did place emphasis on good subordinates as well, but to have good working knowledge on tactics to do what I have tried to describe earlier.

A prudent prince should have a select group of wise counselors to advise him truthfully on matters all the time. All their opinions should be taken into account. Ultimately, the decision should be made by the counselors and carried out absolutely. If a prince is given to changing his mind, his reputation will suffer.

Cailan did so. No wavering, no changes, it's just Loghain was an idiot who couldn't present his ideas and had to bother him needlessly.

[Stormthorn]

Soris isn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, if you hadn't noticed.

Some things shouldnt take too much in the way of smarts to figure out.

[sihnfahl]

To be fair, GWs kept that secret for some weird reason.
Writer issues of what they see as a shameful thing.

[Avilan the Grey]

And first, Ferelden, with its meritocracy and equality of genders isn't medieval Europe, far from it, especially seeing how much "power" nobles there have. Second, from where you did get that? History is full of genrals, condotierres, captains and conquistadors who clearly were in command, not the king.

(snip)

Times of good kings fighting on the battlefield died with Alexander the Great

1. Ferelden is very much an Dark Age Ireland or Scandinavia. The people are Celts / Norsemen at heart, forcefully "civilized" by occupation, but still. And just like their IRL counterparts women hold strong positions and rights.
And just as in those countries, the king is not only allowed, but expected to lead the army. No one would follow a king that did not lead his troops personally.

2. "Died with Alexander"? Really? Your own first example: Yes, I am not an Englishman, but I distinctly remember Henry V? Agincourt?
As a Swede I can list several kings going into battle as far as, and beyond, the 30 year war. That is the 17th and early 18th century, a few thousand years after Alexander.

[Trixie]

1. Ferelden is very much an Dark Age Ireland or Scandinavia. The people are Celts / Norsemen at heart, forcefully "civilized" by occupation, but still. And just like their IRL counterparts women hold strong positions and rights.

No. Just... no. Sure, women had more rights in there than in continental Europe, but that's still peanuts compared to Ferelden.


And just as in those countries, the king is not only allowed, but expected to lead the army. No one would follow a king that did not lead his troops personally.

[shrugs] So? Cailan lead his army. He was socializing with his troops, giving orders, fighting along with them when the DS broke through. What, leading is doing the work of your staff by yourself?


2. "Died with Alexander"? Really? Your own first example: Yes, I am not an Englishman, but I distinctly remember Henry V? Agincourt?

Except that all we know for sure is, that Henry V hanged around with his troops, in just three year-long campaigns. Sure, he probably commanded himself, but Cailan-level involvement cannot be ruled out.

Still, even if he did, so what? There were hundreds of kings during the period. One or two that were more competent than their advisors at commanding, especially on the expense of the other skills, are an exception, not the rule.

Besides, care to point out where he fought personally, as a soldier, like Alexander? No? Thought so.


As a Swede I can list several kings going into battle as far as, and beyond, the 30 year war. That is the 17th and early 18th century, a few thousand years after Alexander.

Except these kings were: A) not medieval; not even renaissance ones in 90% of the cases; B) They were not making every battle plan by themselves, they had a good staff and officer corps; C) I don't remember these kings fighting along in the battlefield. They hanged at the back, unless circumstances forced them to. So, your example is completely invalid :smallamused:

Besides, as a Swede, you should easily make one example where the king was an idiot and made the battle plan himself, not listening to his advisors, like you try to imply Cailan should - does Poltava ring any bells?

Really, if you want to prove me wrong, at least dig some example that doesn't totally agree with what I said, okay? :smallsigh:

[Avilan the Grey]

No. Just... no. Sure, women had more rights in there than in continental Europe, but that's still peanuts compared to Ferelden.

First we do have to remember that Dragon Age is not historical reality, which means the Bioware can have women in any role they want. On the other hand I have no memory of any human woman in Dragon Age holding a position she could not have reached in Viking Scandinavia.


[shrugs] So? Cailan lead his army. He was socializing with his troops, giving orders, fighting along with them when the DS broke through. What, leading is doing the work of your staff by yourself?

You just completely neglects things like culture and history. Just because it seems absurd to you, living in modern society to have a king or emperor personally lead his troops, does not make it so in the cultural and historical context.


Except that all we know for sure is, that Henry V hanged around with his troops, in just three year-long campaigns. Sure, he probably commanded himself, but Cailan-level involvement cannot be ruled out.

It still invalidates your argument that no king took to the field personally in the 100-year war. :smallbiggrin:


Except these kings were: A) not medieval; not even renaissance ones in 90% of the cases; B) They were not making every battle plan by themselves, they had a good staff and officer corps; C) I don't remember these kings fighting along in the battlefield. They hanged at the back, unless circumstances forced them to. So, your example is completely invalid :smallamused:

Besides, as a Swede, you should easily make one example where the king was an idiot and made the battle plan himself, not listening to his advisors, like you try to imply Cailan should - does Poltava ring any bells?

...Please explain to me why my argument that Swedish kings fought personally on the battlefield in the 17th and early 18th century is somehow invalid as a counter to your argument that that didn't happen after Alexander the Great, because they are not medieval kings? I hate to break this to you but Alexander was not medieval either.

And yes, they were not making all battle plans by themselves. None of the kings we debate here (real or fictional) do that. They did a significant part of the planning, however. And yes, they did lead in person on the battle field. That included things like personally charge the enemy lines, etc etc.

Oh and about Poltava: There was mistakes made, of course. I would not go as far as call Karl XII an idiot however; he did uproot a force of 20 000 Russians with 5000 Swedish troops. Unfortunately for him, one of his generals made a critical mistake and misunderstood his orders, which gave the Russians the time to regroup.

Anyway, my points still stand. You might want to follow your own advice and not bring up points that prove my arguments :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[mangosta71]

Perhaps Cailan didn't make the plan himself, but he was certainly well aware of it. I don't recall it ever being stated whose plan it was. We saw Cailan leading the charge against the DS. He was even in the more dangerous position strategically, holding the line against the flanking maneuver. So, what exactly is he doing at Ostagar that's so unbecoming of a king?

[Trixie]

On the other hand I have no memory of any human woman in Dragon Age holding a position she could not have reached in Viking Scandinavia.

Cauthrien. You know, Loghain's general and leader of his knights. Wynne. King's advisor, member of his council. Jarvia. The whole damn Chantry. Female Warden. Lady Aeducan. Marjolane. Half of the Crows. Isolde. Half of the Banns. Lady Cousland. Sophia Dryden. Shall I give more? :smallamused:


You just completely neglects things like culture and history. Just because it seems absurd to you, living in modern society to have a king or emperor personally lead his troops, does not make it so in the cultural and historical context.

My argument wasn't that he can't command. My argument from the beginning was - saying that he is stupid because he doesn't do work of his staff, and because he relies on general with a lifetime of experience and on darkspawn slayer for council wasn't very wise. Yeah, he is young, unexperienced, but he is polite, he tries, and almost buried any issues Ferelden and Orlais had. Saying that makes him stupid and the traitor wise isn't very nice.


It still invalidates your argument that no king took to the field personally in the 100-year war. :smallbiggrin:

[Shrug] Three year long campaigns in a century long conflict, yes, that's called not taking to the field. It was his envoys and generals that commanded it almost the entire time, and that was one odd king who focused on warfare, not internal affairs, and was actually good at it.

Ok, I'll grant you: practically never, not never. 1 battle with king compared to 999 without him can be called such :smalltongue:


...Please explain to me why my argument that Swedish kings fought personally on the battlefield in the 17th and early 18th century is somehow invalid as a counter to your argument that that didn't happen after Alexander the Great, because they are not medieval kings? I hate to break this to you but Alexander was not medieval either.

Again, these kings didn't fought. The kept at the back. They never fired or crossed sword with enemy, unless in true desperation. Maybe that's why it is invalid? :smalltongue:

And care to point where I said Alexander was medieval?


And yes, they were not making all battle plans by themselves. None of the kings we debate here (real or fictional) do that. They did a significant part of the planning, however. And yes, they did lead in person on the battle field. That included things like personally charge the enemy lines, etc etc.

Significant, as in: listen to advisor, pick one plan, improve it, execute, supervise. Just as I suggested Cailan should do, and did :smallwink:

Yes, they sometimes lead, but more often than not, king's regiment was reserve used when things go badly, or committed when all other forces were already clashing and thus pinned in place.


Oh and about Poltava: There was mistakes made, of course. I would not go as far as call Karl XII an idiot however; he did uproot a force of 20 000 Russians with 5000 Swedish troops. Unfortunately for him, one of his generals made a critical mistake and misunderstood his orders, which gave the Russians the time to regroup.

Well, okay - he was good commander, but he made a plan of battle, didn't listened to his men, then left if to two officers who couldn't agree who is in charge and who messed it up. The opposite of what I postulate. If they made worse plan, but someone was actually capable of overseeing it, the battle might have ended up differently.

And yes, he uprooted them, for a moment, but he was trading experienced, irreplaceable veterans for recruits. His army was irreplaceable, Peter could recruit 20.000 more soldiers easily. And it's not like he lost these 20.000 he already had, as Karl couldn't pursue him even if he won. And for what? For remote fortress that wasn't even important. He lost sight of his objectives.

So, he lost his whole army, couldn't replace it, ended in Turkish house arrest, while northern coalition was grabbing all his holdings south of Sweden. That's pretty bad resume, I'd say.

[Dienekes]

In doing what? Preparing the plan with Loghain? It isn't his job, and still, when Loghain shows the plan later, Cailan exactly know what is going to happen. Either plan was crude, or Loghain bored him with details before he finished the draft.

Or since you only walk in half way through the conversation that they were going over it again. Preparing for an upcoming battle, is not a bad thing. And a king, who is taking command of that battle should understand this.



It doesn't bother me, but on the 'net, generally, lowercasing uppercase nicks isn't exactly a compliment.

huh, I never knew that not capitalizing a name was an insult. My apologies Trixie.


But he did understand. Remember last meeting? Loghain says: You hold the line, and Cailan fluently responds: And you'll attack from the rear and side, eh? I see. See above, plan was crude or Cailan grasped instantly without being told.

No. He says, "To flank the darkspawn, I remember." Indicating he was told it already. No evidence that he grasped it without being told.


As for governance - he had Anora and Eamon for that. He, as he is young, and lacks experience, focuses on PR and diplomacy. And, if RtO is to be believed, he made a huge gains there. So huge Loghain offed him for his trouble.

Isn't Anora roughly the same age as him? Yet she's experienced and he is not. That says a bit about where his attentions were to me.


Yeah, why he didn't put the kingdom's savior and his father's right hand in prison? :smallsigh:

I did say I didn't blame him for that foul up.


And you're wrong. He did almost limited Loghain to just Teyrn, for what Loghain offed him. Cailan survives the battle = no more Loghain's claims to the throne anymore.

Evidence please? If it came from RtO then I wouldn't know, I only read the synapses and heard about it from a friend.


His personal correspondence, and word of Eamon, Anora and Loghain.


He knows about warfare and state enough to make decisions, yes, he pushes them to his lackeys, but that's what they're for, and he is still young. How do you know the "step back, watch how people who actually know how to do it do it" isn't a sign of wisdom? :smallamused:

This is true. Blatantly disregarding your more experienced commander and placing yourself in the most dangerous position on the battlefield is not, however.


It only says what choices are good to make, such as: if besieged, purge dissenters, keep others happy. That's hardly Wast Point tactic. Il Principe deals with strategy, geography, morale and logistics, it never pursues tactics seriously. The only thing Cailan disregarded there was: Never use allied troops as the only way to achieve victory, if the ally has something to gain by betraying you:

True, most of his work on tactics and strategy comes from his version of the Art of War. But we're not only talking about the Prince here are we, more political ideology in general. There he places a much larger emphasis on battle.


Machiavelli also warns against using auxiliary forces, troops borrowed from an ally, because if they win, the employer is under their favor and if they lose, he is ruined. Auxiliary forces are more dangerous than mercenary forces because they are united and controlled by capable leaders who may turn against the employer.

True, and Cailan wanted to have Orlais come as backup with their big army.


Incorrect:

Machiavelli stands strongly against the use of mercenaries. He believes them useless to a ruler because they are undisciplined, cowardly, and without any loyalty, being motivated only by money. Machiavelli attributes the Italian city states’ weakness to their reliance on mercenary armies.

Not a big fan of condotierres, here. Ever heard of Sacco di Roma? It was a big black mark on their usefulness.

You are right, which is of annoyance to me because you successfully described what I was trying to say much clearer. My original sentence(s) should have been "several of his major theories were directly supposed to bring military power back into the hands of kings and rulers and away from the mercenary generals. As well as using *citizens instead of* mercenaries in general to defend a state." That's just sloppy writing on my part.


Also, note that at the time Prince was written, it was detested as a set of advice to evil man without morals, as only deplorable people would follow it. Cailan did all the 'right' stuff, it isn't his fault he backed down from the more 'evil' parts.

Which is precisely why I also brought up Erasmus' works which you haven't seemed to counter yet.


A prudent prince should have a select group of wise counselors to advise him truthfully on matters all the time. All their opinions should be taken into account. Ultimately, the decision should be made by the counselors and carried out absolutely. If a prince is given to changing his mind, his reputation will suffer.

Cailan did so. No wavering, no changes, it's just Loghain was an idiot who couldn't present his ideas and had to bother him needlessly.

No he did not. He disregarded Loghain on where to position himself in a battle as well as the use of Orlesians in general. Whether he was better off disregarding Loghain on the second one is open to debate, but you cannot claim that he followed what you have stated above. And if memory serves I think you're misquoting. The decision should be made by the prince and carried out absolutely, is how I remember it (in my terribly fuzzy memory and no book on hand). He then gives a few examples of kings who went back and forth on their decisions and got messed up and so forth.

[Jeivar]

After getting my fill of ME2 for now, I'm thinking of restarting my second DA:O playthrough. Can someone run me through the options and results for solving the Landsmeet issue towards the end? Alistair DOESN'T WANT to be forced into kingship, but I'm also not interested in putting that vile, backstabbing snake Anora in power a second time OR in sparing Loghain after all the horror he caused. After reading the two prequel books, his game-self really disappointed me.

And just looking for opinions here: I like the story and the characters and the setting (for the most part), but does anyone agree that the combat was way way overdone!!! I mean, I get that there's a civil war and a Blight, but you spend hours upon hours wading through identical darkspawn and identical demons. I mean, as enemies they have absolutely no personality, and evoke nothing in me. Nothing. I absolutely dread a second run through Orzammar.

And . . . well . . . I've already made my feelings for Anora clear, but was anyone else rather baffled/annoyed by the fact that you can be mean and rude to almost everyone in the game, even valuable allies, but you can't lash properly out at the bitch for turning on you the moment it becomes convenient, after calling on you for help. It . . . aggravated me to go through an entire dialogue tree of her being sociopathically shameless, and my character being only slightly miffed.
I mean, I wanted to rain a hurricane of vile insults over her and the handmaiden for daring to try to make nice after something like that, or punch her, or SOMETHING other than just politely turn down her offer of an alliance.

*Phew* Sorry. Just needed to get that out.

[FoE]

I LIKE SWORDS!

...


After getting my fill of ME2 for now, I'm thinking of restarting my second DA:O playthrough. Can someone run me through the options and results for solving the Landsmeet issue towards the end? Alistair DOESN'T WANT to be forced into kingship, but I'm also not interested in putting that vile, backstabbing snake Anora in power a second time OR in sparing Loghain after all the horror he caused.

You can choose to harden Alistair's personality while doing his personal sidequest. He'll warm up to the idea of being king if you do. I didn't have the heart to do it, though.


And just looking for opinions here: I like the story and the characters and the setting (for the most part), but does anyone agree that the combat was way way overdone!!! I mean, I get that there's a civil war and a Blight, but you spend hours upon hours wading through identical darkspawn and identical demons. I mean, as enemies they have absolutely no personality, and evoke nothing in me. Nothing. I absolutely dread a second run through Orzammar.

I don't, but I'm sort of a "Slayer" personality type. If I'm not fighting, then I'm looking for a fight. Even though I knew that Bhelen was probably the better ruler of Orzammar, I supported Harrowmount for the opportunity to get in more fights. And I delight in killing darkspawn the most.

My favourite battle cry after felling an enemy? "NEXT!"

(That said, I don't slaughter people indiscriminately, I try to preserve the life of innocent bystanders and I tend to show mercy to enemies who beg for it. I'm bloodthirsty, but I'm one of the good guys.)

The only thing I wish was in the game was a bit more variety in the monsters. Perhaps another type of darkspawn or two.

A thought I just had: is it a coincidence that both of the bisexual love interests in this game are rogues? Is that, like, a prerequisite for the class, or something?

"Rogues do it from behind," indeed. :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

Cauthrien. You know, Loghain's general and leader of his knights. Wynne. King's advisor, member of his council. Jarvia. The whole damn Chantry. Female Warden. Lady Aeducan. Marjolane. Half of the Crows. Isolde. Half of the Banns. Lady Cousland. Sophia Dryden. Shall I give more? :smallamused:

If we remove things like Wardens, which for some reason isn't as common in Scandinavia 800-1000AD as in Ferelden, and the Chantry, for the same reasons...

There were female soldiers and body guards. Not common, but enough to be mentioned. Women were steadholders. And Isolde? Are you saying you really believe that women were not allowed to... what? Walk outside? She's a noblewoman, of course she will command power.



My argument wasn't that he can't command. My argument from the beginning was - saying that he is stupid because he doesn't do work of his staff, and because he relies on general with a lifetime of experience and on darkspawn slayer for council wasn't very wise. Yeah, he is young, unexperienced, but he is polite, he tries, and almost buried any issues Ferelden and Orlais had. Saying that makes him stupid and the traitor wise isn't very nice.

Well that I agree with.



[Shrug] Three year long campaigns in a century long conflict, yes, that's called not taking to the field. It was his envoys and generals that commanded it almost the entire time, and that was one odd king who focused on warfare, not internal affairs, and was actually good at it.

Ok, I'll grant you: practically never, not never. 1 battle with king compared to 999 without him can be called such :smalltongue:

Taking to the field counts even if it's only for an afternoon.



Again, these kings didn't fought. The kept at the back. They never fired or crossed sword with enemy, unless in true desperation. Maybe that's why it is invalid? :smalltongue:

And care to point where I said Alexander was medieval?

...Yes they did fight.

Anyway.... you said (paraphrasing) "No good kings fought in the front lines. That practice stopped with Alexander The Great". I replied "Swedish kings fought in person in battles in the 30 year war and beyond". To that, you suddenly added the demand that for it to count, the king must be medieval... Hence my comment.


Yes, they sometimes lead, but more often than not, king's regiment was reserve used when things go badly, or committed when all other forces were already clashing and thus pinned in place.

Gustav II Adolf (the Great) fought with the elite cavalry unit. His nephew Karl X was slightly more cautious and did not fight in the front lines. HIS son and grandson (Karl XI and Karl XII) were back in the front lines.

As for Karl XII and Poltava. Yes, the whole thing was a mistake at that point, the army should have moved back into closer territory (Poland, for example) but we must not forget that he did not start a single war, his whole life he fought defensive wars against many enemies and if we had not had him, Sweden would probably not exist as an independent nation now.

[Cristo Meyers]

After getting my fill of ME2 for now, I'm thinking of restarting my second DA:O playthrough. Can someone run me through the options and results for solving the Landsmeet issue towards the end? Alistair DOESN'T WANT to be forced into kingship, but I'm also not interested in putting that vile, backstabbing snake Anora in power a second time OR in sparing Loghain after all the horror he caused. After reading the two prequel books, his game-self really disappointed me.


It's either Anora alone, Alistair alone, Alistair/Anora, Alistair/Female Human Noble, or Anora/Male Human Noble. No matter what, one of them ends up on the throne.

[Kish]

After getting my fill of ME2 for now, I'm thinking of restarting my second DA:O playthrough. Can someone run me through the options and results for solving the Landsmeet issue towards the end?

If you tell him, after you met Goldanna in Denerim, that everyone's out for themselves and he should learn that, he reacts as though what you'd said was, instead, "She's just looking out for herself. You should look out for yourself more." This "hardens" him; he's still not pleased about becoming king then, but he considers it plainly preferable to leaving Anora on the throne.

You can put Alistair on the throne, or leave Anora there, or make them marry. The best option for Ferelden, on every level, is Alistair ruling alone. If Alistair is hardened, he'll imply that he's going to have Anora executed after the Blight; if he isn't, he'll say he's going to exile her. At least one of Alistair and Anora must rule.

If Loghain lives, only Anora can rule, and she'll have Alistair executed unless you appeal to her not to. If Alistair kills Loghain, Anora will refuse to marry him if you try to get them to marry after that.

If you're a male human noble, you can marry Anora, be Prince Consort, and struggle with her for power for the rest of your life--only if you haven't personally killed Loghain. If you're a female human noble and Alistair doesn't hate you by the Landsmeet, you can marry him.

[Jeivar]

It's either Anora alone, Alistair alone, Alistair/Anora, Alistair/Female Human Noble, or Anora/Male Human Noble. No matter what, one of them ends up on the throne.

And is any one of them "better" than the rest?

[Cristo Meyers]

And is any one of them "better" than the rest?

Well...

Marrying Alistair as a FHN requires hardening him and I'm pretty sure being in a relationship with him, but it's also about the only way he'll happily take the throne rather than resigning himself to his duty.

In terms of leadership for the country: Alistair is better than Anora pretty much on all counts. He'll actually improve the lot of Fereldan where Anora really only keeps the status quo. She's able, but as you've seen, she really only cares about being Queen.

And, as Kish mentioned, it's implied that a hardened Alistair has Anora executed after the Blight is defeated.

[Jeivar]

If you tell him, after you met Goldanna in Denerim, that everyone's out for themselves and he should learn that, he reacts as though what you'd said was, instead, "She's just looking out for herself. You should look out for yourself more." This "hardens" him; he's still not pleased about becoming king then, but he considers it plainly preferable to leaving Anora on the throne.

You can put Alistair on the throne, or leave Anora there, or make them marry. The best option for Ferelden, on every level, is Alistair ruling alone. If Alistair is hardened, he'll imply that he's going to have Anora executed after the Blight; if he isn't, he'll say he's going to exile her. At least one of Alistair and Anora must rule.

If Loghain lives, only Anora can rule, and she'll have Alistair executed unless you appeal to her not to. If Alistair kills Loghain, Anora will refuse to marry him if you try to get them to marry after that.

If you're a male human noble, you can marry Anora, be Prince Consort, and struggle with her for power for the rest of your life--only if you haven't personally killed Loghain. If you're a female human noble and Alistair doesn't hate you by the Landsmeet, you can marry him.

Wow. I sure do love Anora . . .

And does anyone have an idea how in the world they're going to make a sequel to something with so many different possible outcomes? I mean, ME1 only had the Council/No Council, Anderson/Udina.

[Kish]

Well...

Marrying Alistair as a FHN requires hardening him and I'm pretty sure being in a relationship with him,
No and no.You can marry him without hardening him. If you're in a relationship with him, there isn't even a Persuade check involved, but you can marry him with an approval rating as low as 0--as long as it's not lower than that.

[Cristo Meyers]

Wow. I sure do love Anora . . .

And does anyone have an idea how in the world they're going to make a sequel to something with so many different possible outcomes? I mean, ME1 only had the Council/No Council, Anderson/Udina.

By centering it around Morrigan and her little spawn, who runs off to Orlais, so the political situation in Fereldan really won't be all that important. But this is all rumour...

[FoE]

Marriage is possible no matter what, but you can only become Alistair's mistress if you "harden" him.

Oh, the double entendres ... :smalltongue:


And is any one of them "better" than the rest?

Well, you could put him on the throne and get married if you're a female Human Noble Warden, whereupon you have lots of sex in an attempt to breed an heir. Some Alistair fangirls would say that's a happy ending, in more ways than one. :smallamused:

"Alistair fangirls." I still can't get over the fact that such creatures exist. I thought fangirls only went for white-haired bishies. O_O

[Cristo Meyers]

No and no.You can marry him without hardening him. If you're in a relationship with him, there isn't even a Persuade check involved, but you can marry him with an approval rating as low as 0--as long as it's not lower than that.

Ah, you're right. My mistake. Whether or not he's hardened affects whether or not he remains in a relationship with you after becoming king if you don't or can't marry.

[Green Bean]

By centering it around Morrigan and her little spawn, who runs off to Orlais, so the political situation in Fereldan really won't be all that important. But this is all rumour...

But that doesn't work either, because that's optional too.

[Cristo Meyers]

But that doesn't work either, because that's optional too.

yes, but she goes to Orlais either way, presumably to find another Grey Warden to shack up with to get her child. Really the only thing that could change by focusing on her is whether or not the child is yours, Alistair's, Loghain's, or unnamed Orleasian Grey Warden X's.

[Trixie]

It's either Anora alone, Alistair alone, Alistair/Anora, Alistair/Female Human Noble, or Anora/Male Human Noble. No matter what, one of them ends up on the throne.

It can also be Alistair/Anora + female Warden in a triangle of sorts.

By the way, is execution scene animated?


And is any one of them "better" than the rest?

Alistair/Female Human Noble, I guess. IMHO. Even by the results.

That way, Couslands take all power in Ferelden possible, which was the goal of my PC all along :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

yes, but she goes to Orlais either way, presumably to find another Grey Warden to shack up with to get her child. Really the only thing that could change by focusing on her is whether or not the child is yours, Alistair's, Loghain's, or unnamed Orleasian Grey Warden X's.
That doesn't make any sense, though. How could she get to Orlais, find a Grey Warden willing to sleep with her, and then get back in time to be present at the Archdemon's death and thereby acquire the Old God's soul? Hell, how could she get to Orlais before the Archdemon's death, much less find a willing Warden and get back in time?

Hell, if that were the case, wouldn't it be impossible for you, Alistair, or Loghain to die during the slaying of the Archdemon? Which clearly isn't the case?
Zevox