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View Full Version : D&D 3.5 - Being a mercenary is no fun job?



Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 01:54 AM
I have a dilemma right now and I need some advice:
3rd-level PC's have hired a 2nd-level warrior to fight for them. They pay him well. But the thing is that this warrior really makes a world of difference to them!

According to DMG hirelings gain no XP and are not a part of any calculations about party level. So... if this guy slays and slays in the frontline, he gets 0 XP? And this is not even the main question. The main question is that do the players get full XP for every encounter? I'm slightly disappointed because this should be heroic fantasy, but by paying triple hazard pay and rolling decent diplomacy rolls PC's could convince a small private army to go with them and still gain XP, because they are still modest low-level group (hirelings don't count). And how can getting paid make you unable to gain XP if you fight and you are a warrior?

This brings me an idea: PC's are hired as mercenaries by a wealthy NPC-mercenary. So for the whole adventure they don't get any XP :) PC's can be hirelings too!

Kylarra
2010-02-12, 02:00 AM
XP is a meta construct of sorts, so if you try to pull that suggestion without your players being aware of it, be prepared to have books chucked at your head. :smalltongue:

As always, things written in the DMG are only guidelines and if they have a small army, obviously they are not just an ecl of their party level.

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 02:08 AM
Ok, army was just exaggaration. Mainly I'd like to know what to do about my situation.
1. Why doesn't the friendly mercenary gain XP for doing PC's job?
2. How he does affect the XP players get?
3. Mercenaries after hundreds battles don't get any levels?
4. What is the logic behind all this?
5. How should I handle this situation?

Crow
2010-02-12, 02:13 AM
You're the DM. Make a judgement call. If it were me, I would give the NPC a split of the experience if he is pulling a PC workload.

rezplz
2010-02-12, 02:17 AM
You could also treat the mercenary as a cohort, only giving him EXP if he's two levels below the party or something. That keeps the feel that it's just a mercenary, and not a true "hero" like the PCs are - but if the PCs have some kind of attachment to this mercenary and don't want to switch him out for a different one, he'll be able to hold his own. And it also gets around the issue of his not learning from all the fighting he's doing - he's just learning a little slower than the PCs, is all.

Hallavast
2010-02-12, 02:24 AM
Congratulations. You've pointed out a silly rule that makes little sense that I personally hadn't considered (and wasn't aware of).

Fortunately this rule is arbitrary as well as nonsensical. It is easily ignored/changed.

Now we know. And knowing is half the battle!

Kylarra
2010-02-12, 02:28 AM
Ok, army was just exaggaration. Mainly I'd like to know what to do about my situation.
1. Why doesn't the friendly mercenary gain XP for doing PC's job?
2. How he does affect the XP players get?
3. Mercenaries after hundreds battles don't get any levels?
4. What is the logic behind all this?
5. How should I handle this situation?
1. Experience is a metaconstruct, he's not supposed to be around for more than one adventure. He levels up as the DM needs him to, not by exp.
2. He doesn't. See 1.
3. See 1.
4. See 1.
5. If he stays around for more than one adventure, treat him as a cohort rather than a hireling.

Reluctance
2010-02-12, 02:28 AM
I think the point of hirelings is a nod do gamist efficiency even in 3e's design. If an army of a hundred mercenaries fights an army of a hundred skeletons, do you really want to calculate experience for everybody?

Besides, it's not simply the element of being hired to do a job that makes one a hireling, so much as their minor role in the setting. A character of nearly PC level who does a full PC's job sounds more like an ally than a hireling, with everything that entails.

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 02:38 AM
I think the point of hirelings is a nod do gamist efficiency even in 3e's design. If an army of a hundred mercenaries fights an army of a hundred skeletons, do you really want to calculate experience for everybody?

Besides, it's not simply the element of being hired to do a job that makes one a hireling, so much as their minor role in the setting. A character of nearly PC level who does a full PC's job sounds more like an ally than a hireling, with everything that entails.

This sounds logical. Also I think what they ment by "hireling" is a classic situation where an army of 1st-level warriors and their high-level commander face a massive monster/opposing army. So commanders get XP for all the opponents they've killed/significantly wounded and you don't have to worry about little warriors...

IMO what they should have done in DMG is to make sure that DM's understand this and most importantly point out that if NPC is at least third of party level they can't be hirelings and are always allies or cohorts.

AstralFire
2010-02-12, 02:40 AM
Plus, PCs are special.

If NPCs leveled up the way PCs did uniformly, well...

By the rules, it's expected to need only about 50 days of actual adventuring time to go from "CRAP, HOUSECAT" to "...hahaha... causality."

Kylarra
2010-02-12, 02:43 AM
Plus, PCs are special.

If NPCs leveled up the way PCs did uniformly, well...

By the rules, it's expected to need only about 50 days of actual adventuring time to go from "CRAP, HOUSECAT" to "...hahaha... causality."
That only applies to fullcasters. :smallamused:

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 03:43 AM
Plus, PCs are special.

If NPCs leveled up the way PCs did uniformly, well...

By the rules, it's expected to need only about 50 days of actual adventuring time to go from "CRAP, HOUSECAT" to "...hahaha... causality."

Yes PC's are special, but to some degree. They get fancy PC-classes and DM (hopefully) metagames in PC's favour (I do this a lot!).

But you have to draw the line somewhere. On other extreme you have gritty style of having PC's being the lowest of the lowest with no exceptions. On the other hand you can have unkillable PC's unless they make a horrible and obvious mistake and DM has warned them very carefully about their actions (I have had this kind of DM too).

So IMO (just IMO) if being a hireling has some effect on XP, this should affect all hirelings, whether they are PC's or NPC's. Because NPC's advance in levels too. Slowly, quickly... Doesn't matter. But fighting monsters and gaining 0 XP is something that doesn't fit to my logic very well.

Kylarra
2010-02-12, 03:44 AM
Like I said, it's a bookkeeping issue. Hirelings are not long-time contributors to adventures. They aren't supposed to have significant screentime, if any. In the event that a hireling starts to become more than a hireling, there are rules for cohorts.


The vast majority of NPCs do not "gain experience" as PCs do. They level at the speed of plot, no faster, no slower.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-12, 05:04 AM
All this reminds me of the D&D game I ran a while back...

The party was fifth level, and we were introducing a new character, a dwarven Fighter. He had a bit of his wealth-by-level left over, so he decided he wanted a hireling. He forked over the coins for a month's service from a first-level Warrior (including the "hazard pay," as it were). I figured, "a bit of a waste of money, all things considered." Especially considering that the party's upcoming adventure was based off of something by H.P. Lovecraft. :smalleek: Nonetheless, I jotted down a few quick numbers to represent his stats.

To our surprise, despite all the combats the party went through, this guy survived every fight for the entire adventure. When the thing was finally over and they got back to civilization, the party dismissed him a week early, and even wanted to give him a bonus. :smallamused:

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 05:09 AM
Did you give this NPC share of XP? ;)

dsmiles
2010-02-12, 05:35 AM
Personally, I'd give him XP as if he were a cohort gained through Leadership. This way he stays relatively less powerful than the party, and the PC's don't actually lose any XP over it.

Grumman
2010-02-12, 05:43 AM
I would not take away XP from the party for hiring him, but one day I'd just level him up without telling the party, then after the next battle have him go to the PCs and ask for a pay rise of an extra 2-3 silver pieces per day.

bosssmiley
2010-02-12, 06:59 AM
I have a dilemma right now and I need some advice:
3rd-level PC's have hired a 2nd-level warrior to fight for them. They pay him well. But the thing is that this warrior really makes a world of difference to them!

According to DMG hirelings gain no XP and are not a part of any calculations about party level. So... if this guy slays and slays in the frontline, he gets 0 XP? And this is not even the main question. The main question is that do the players get full XP for every encounter? I'm slightly disappointed because this should be heroic fantasy, but by paying triple hazard pay and rolling decent diplomacy rolls PC's could convince a small private army to go with them and still gain XP, because they are still modest low-level group (hirelings don't count). And how can getting paid make you unable to gain XP if you fight and you are a warrior?

This brings me an idea: PC's are hired as mercenaries by a wealthy NPC-mercenary. So for the whole adventure they don't get any XP :) PC's can be hirelings too!

Back in the old days of B/X D&D henchmen (any NPC who went down a dungeon and fought alongside the party) got a 1/2 share of treasure and XP.
Torchbearers, hostlers and the like didn't get this extra cheddar, only people who were willing to pull their weight when it all kicked off.

Added advantage: if your primary character died you could still play as a henchman until your character was rezzed or you could roll up a new guy. So the 'sitting at the table twiddling your thumbs' problem was taken care of too.

Truly, the old ways are the best. :smallwink:

Leon
2010-02-12, 07:21 AM
As he fights he gains experience from doing so and advances his skill in arms and endurance etc.

This has nothing to do with and doesn't detract from the the magic EXP Numbers that float off of a defeated creature that the PCs harvest to advance.


Mr Mercenary may not skyrocket up in power as the PCs may but he's not stuck in stasis

Anonymouswizard
2010-02-12, 10:48 AM
I'd say give him XP as a way of keeping track how much he's precticed:

If he is a fighter-type have him advance at 0.75 times the rate he normally would, stopping at 1 level below his employer. As he is getting to practice his skills as they were meant to be practised he gets decent XP.

If he is a rogue, wizard, or some other class that relies on more than just combat he receives only 0.5 unless he can find some other way to practise his skills.

Dyllan
2010-02-12, 11:00 AM
I'm with the consensus, run it exactly like someone in the party has the Leadership feat... so long as they keep paying him. He'll never be as powerful as they are, but he'll always be close enough to be of use. And the cost of keeping him around will keep going up as he levels.

Also, if they're not paying him well, and not letting him share loot, his equipment will quickly fall behind the curve.

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-12, 11:25 AM
I'm with the consensus, run it exactly like someone in the party has the Leadership feat... so long as they keep paying him. He'll never be as powerful as they are, but he'll always be close enough to be of use. And the cost of keeping him around will keep going up as he levels.

Also, if they're not paying him well, and not letting him share loot, his equipment will quickly fall behind the curve.

This post really opened my eyes, thank you.
One of the important aspects about levelling up is to also gear up - proportionally.

Being paid few gold per day while you (as Leon mentioned) skyrocket in to power creates slightly amusing distortion in relation of powerlevel and wealth... So this definately makes it sure that I don't give mr. Mercenary too much XP... But some small XP reward, such as cohort-ish XP would work.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-13, 12:56 AM
According to the DMG (pages 104 - 107), friendly NPCs are divided into 4 categories: allies, cohorts, followers, and hirelings. Each is treated differently with regard to XP and treasure.

Allies are treated the same as PCs; an ally who works with the party simply counts as a normal member of the party. Cohorts don't detract from the XP earned by party members, get less XP for being lower-level in a fashion bizarrely opposite how player characters are treated, and usually (but not always) receive half a share of treasure. Followers gain no XP and demand no treasure, though they must be fed and equipped. Hirelings also gain no XP and are paid according to the services they render, plus expenses.

We are told that cohorts are different from allies in that they take on a subservient role, followers are similar to cohorts but generally low-level, and hirelings are different from cohorts in that they have no investment in what's going on and do not make decisions.

It's all rather ambiguous and arbitrary. Material reward demanded should depend on the individual and circumstances in question. A player could conceivably play a servant of another PC. There's no hard line drawn between cohorts and followers. The stated difference between hirelings and cohorts is especially ridiculous. Cohorts are already servants; do hirelings "not make decisions" in the sense of being robot-like automatons incapable of intelligent thought, like zombies or golems? And long-term employees are going to have an investment in their employers' success, especially if the employees actually come along with the employers on a mission where failure equals death for everyone involved.

It would be nice to have a single method of determining experience point awards for an encounter. I tentatively suggest the following: Total up the levels of everyone who participated in an encounter. (Someone who e.g. stood in the back holding a torch doesn't count.) For each character, determine XP as if she had overcome the encounter on her own, using Table 2-6 on page 38 of the DMG. Multiply this figure by the character's level and then divide by the total of everyone's levels. Award the character this much XP.

Obviously, a character with the non-elite array of stats, an NPC class, and NPC WBL should count as lower level than a character built and equipped as a PC, much like characters with powerful races are counted as higher level. How much lower level should they be counted as? Hell, I don't know.

NPC-classed characters should probably only count as lower level for determining what fraction of a normal XP reward everybody gets, and not for deciding the base amount of XP they get their fraction of. An NPC-classed character doesn't get more XP for an encounter for having a less powerful class; he just sucks more than someone with a PC class, with no compensating benefit.

absolmorph
2010-02-13, 01:31 AM
Like I said, it's a bookkeeping issue. Hirelings are not long-time contributors to adventures. They aren't supposed to have significant screentime, if any. In the event that a hireling starts to become more than a hireling, there are rules for cohorts.


The vast majority of NPCs do not "gain experience" as PCs do. They level at the speed of plot, no faster, no slower.
They travel at the speed of plot, too.

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-13, 02:48 AM
Great post. I like your method of XP, but I think (I'm not sure) that if I started to use that method instead of my current method, I'd be awarding XP differently to PC's and players might find it odd in a metagame of sense and it would take away consistency. I guess what I'm trying to say here that even though your method is great, it's a drastic change in a game that has been going on about a half a year now and I feel that I'm re-building the whole house just because one door is really squeeky. When I start a new game, I'm definately giving your method a try.

But now I think it would be nice to introduce Mr. Mercenary (just for fun):

DANACK

Warrior 2nd-level Lawful Neutral
Hp: 14
AC: 17 (splint mail +6 Dex -1 Heavy wooden shield +2)
Attacks: Masterwork morningstar +5 / javelin +1
Feats: Weapon Focus (morningstar), Iron Will
Str: 12, Int: 11, Con: 13, Dex: 9, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
Skills: Knowledge (Arcane): +1, Knowledge (Religion): +1, Profession (Weapons trainer): +2, Intimidate: +1
BACKGROUND:
31 years ago lineage of weapons trainers was continued when Danack was born. Young, determined boy didn't play or joke, because such things were forbidden in his fathers presence. The main focus in his life was the morningstar, almost an holy weapon for his father and grandfather. It was the weapon which they had specialized.

After Greyhawk Wars Danack moved away from his parents and joined Istivins City Guard, trying to gain some actual battle experience which was needed if he ever were to become a credible weapons trainer.
He fought many battles and became a sergeant. At this point he received invitation from his uncle who also lived in Istivin.
"Son, I need a bodyguard and I'd like it to be someone of my own blood. I know you are cabable warrior as my brother was. Please come, I will pay you well."

Danack heeded the call and so his life became very different. His uncle was a retired high-priest of Boccob, the God of Magic. In his estates he started to live a lonely life, without fighting or dangers... He still practiced his familys art of morningstar, but his determination faded and battle prowess lost its edge. After some years his uncle decided that his nephew needs to fight again or he will lose his soul... Maybe some friendly adventurer could hire him?