OOTS #703 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[nonbeliever93]

The MitD is so adorable with his confusion. And does this mean that they're moving on without finding the phylactery?

[Yendor]

All hail Prime Minister Jirix!

[Ganurath]

...Poor Warrior. He didn't get to kill a single Azurite. At least he was avenged.

...I don't get the milk joke, though.

[TheGrimace]

Wow, that hobgoblin warrior was a lucky one!
Belkar just let him walk away.

I'm crazy about the punchline here though, I love sitting through the credits at movies to see who played "hot girl's best friend #2" or it's equivilent

[Zxo]

There's foreshadowing of internal strife in the new goblin nation. Redcloak was the only one whose authority would have gone unchallenged.

Loved the joke in the first panel :smallbiggrin:

[Raging Gene Ray]

...I don't get the milk joke, though.

I think it was just an excuse to get Hobgoblin Cleric number 2's mother to yell at him, revealing that he really IS a nameless NPC. Well, not exactly NAMELESS, but...not exactly a real, plot element kind of name.

I wonder if his village had naming conventions similar to the goblins from Goblins.

[Tiktakkat]

Goblins invented the oboe?
I had to play the oboe in school!
DEATH TO GOBLINS!

[Goonthegoof]

I'm still laughing at MITD in the first panel :smallbiggrin:

[nihil8r]

joke makes no sense

[Raging Gene Ray]

If baby Hobgoblin Warrior from Strip 433, Panel 3 was wearing a little shirt with a picture of a duck on it...that would start a thread on speculation about Ducks as Metaphors for the State of Goblinkind.

[RMS Oceanic]

joke makes no sense

His mother named him a generic name. In a world where having a (proper) name gives you significance, he's doomed to be a background character.

[TheCountAlucard]

Hehehe, excellent job, Giant. :smallsmile:

[bsparrow]

Is it just me, or did Reddy look a little annoyed by Jirix's banter? :smallbiggrin:

One can't help but wonder what Team Evil is up to, though, if they are in fact leaving without the phylactery, as it appears. Dang suspense! :smalltongue:

[Elfey]

Anyone else go look at 433?

Also, I think Jirix has more talent for public speaking then Redcloak. Left-Eye.

[Elfey]

One can't help but wonder what Team Evil is up to, though, if they are in fact leaving without the phylactery, as it appears. Dang suspense! :smalltongue:

Nah, I think he's just making sure everything is ready for once they find it. After all, once it is found they are bugging out immediately, so Left-Eye needs to get this done before hand, and Xykon won't care if it doesn't mess with his plans.

[AtomicKitKat]

Heh. Hooray for unimaginative mothers.:smalltongue:

[SPoD]

I don't think they're leaving without the phylactery. I think Redcloak is just getting his ducks in a row now, because Xykon told him they would be leaving two rounds after they found it. That wouldn't be enough time to transfer power to Jirix, so they're doing it in advance.

[Jan Mattys]

There's foreshadowing of internal strife in the new goblin nation. Redcloak was the only one whose authority would have gone unchallenged.

This.
I've felt the same.

[Moran]

You know, I kind of like that Jirix. Maybe, just maybe, mind you, he could turn the Goblin nation into something more or less acceptable. Not worse than many "rogue" human nations, anyway.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Hmm... I wonder how many hobgoblins will end up going with Xykon and Redcloak? With Tsukiko they have pretty much all the magical power they need, but hobgoblins make rather effeceint speedbumps against heroes.

[JonestheSpy]

You know, I kind of like that Jirix. Maybe, just maybe, mind you, he could turn the Goblin nation into something more or less acceptable. Not worse than many "rogue" human nations, anyway.

I think that will be shown to depend on the nature of that 'delicious barbeque'...I had a seriously queesy feeling as soon as I read that line.

[Supermagle]

"...same as the old boss."

Obligatory tvtropes link:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MeetTheNewBoss

[Eldhrin]

Maybe the barbecue is hydra heads?

[TheBST]

There's foreshadowing of internal strife in the new goblin nation. Redcloak was the only one whose authority would have gone unchallenged.


Nah. Look at the strip's title: 'Meet The New Boss'.

'Same as the old boss', anyone?

Jirix isn't going to rock the boat.

[hamishspence]

We'll have to wait and see- however- I'd be surprised if the "upcoming barbeque" is intended to involve eating the Azurites.

[Roc Ness]

Man. The poor hobgoblin from #433 panel 3 is probably dead now.

[RMS Oceanic]

There's foreshadowing of internal strife in the new goblin nation. Redcloak was the only one whose authority would have gone unchallenged.

Where's the internal strife? Hobgoblin Cleric #2 may feel jealous about Jirix's promotion, but where's his motivation to struggle against him? I think at the moment, external pressures aside, Jirix's position is relatively secure, since the Supreme Leader himself has deemed him worthy of being his Regent.

[Elan's Modron]

Excellent stuff!
Love the gobbo mom's last lines.

Also- I think we now have confirmation that the elven terrorist attack was V. and not (yet) Team Peregrine. Or am I being stupid here?

Regardless, love all the gobbo lifestyle deets. It's like a gobbo-centric Martha Stewart Magazine photospread!

And yeah, going to bed RIGHT now...

[Raging Gene Ray]

We'll have to wait and see- however- I'd be surprised if the "upcoming barbeque" is intended to involve eating the Azurites.

It'll probably involve Barbecue Hydra Heads for everybody - and that's how Goblin Dan made his first million gold pieces!

[Teddy]

Awesome!

I especially liked the (perhaps not so reference-y) reference to redcloaks introduction to SoD.

[lothos]

Nice end to the week ! Thanks Rich.
(It's Friday evening here in Australia) :-)

[Ron Miel]

Man. The poor hobgoblin from #433 panel 3 is probably dead now.

He got stabbed in panel #5 and was dead in panel #6

[Nimrod's Son]

It looks like the crease of the curtain in panel six is extending up into the panel above it, unless that's supposed to be a hobgoblin with an eyepatch.

[UnluckyPotato]

Hehe. :smallsmile:

[Killer Angel]

The MitD is so adorable with his confusion. And does this mean that they're moving on without finding the phylactery?

Inconceivable.
Xykon will move ONLY after retreiving the phylactery. And when it will happen, it will be a fast departure, so Redcloack must pass the command before.

[Kastanok]

Jirix - he's here Tuesday, Thursdays and twice on Saturdays. Try the roasted displacer beast!

Those hobos really do love their leader. Quite scary really.

I wonder, is the Dark One proud of his people's works? Is this all how he envisioned the Plan turning out, Xykon and all?

[Agi Hammerthief]

It looks like the crease of the curtain in panel five is extending up into the panel above it, unless that's supposed to be a hobgoblin with an eyepatch.
it's panel 6 to panel 2

I really love panel 7 :smallbiggrin:

[Pandabear]

All hail Jirix!

[dsavereide]

"The guy I was thinking of had a pointy metal bar sticking out of his chest" made me laugh and think of O'Chul - double bonus.

[Hrairoo]

awesome comic, giant! glad to see preparations being made so that team evil can hit the road again. let's hear it for gobbotopia!

PS-I did think Jirix looked way cooler with his beard... far more B@

[Yendor]

I don't think they're leaving without the phylactery. I think Redcloak is just getting his ducks in a row now, because Xykon told him they would be leaving two rounds after they found it. That wouldn't be enough time to transfer power to Jirix, so they're doing it in advance.

Bet they've found it and Reddy hasn't told Xykon yet.

[hamishspence]

awesome comic, giant! glad to see preparations being made so that team evil can hit the road again. let's hear it for gobbotopia!

PS-I did think Jirix looked way cooler with his beard... far more B@

When did Jirix have a beard?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html

"The General" in the purple cloak, at the siege, is a different hobgoblin.

[Nimrod's Son]

PS-I did think Jirix looked way cooler with his beard... far more B@
Jirix never had a beard. If you're thinking of this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), that's not Jirix.

[warmachine]

Curious. Prime Minister is a position with chief administrative powers but is not head of state, which can be an emperor or monarch. A Prime Minister can have the de facto powers of a head of state and the de jure head can be purely ceremonial but this still means Jirix can be legally removed from office. This head of state must be Redcloak and I doubt he's content to just make stirring speeches from balconies, write books and cut giant ribbons if he returns to Gobbotopia. I suspect Jirix will find some way to make sure Redcloak never returns.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Thank you Giant! :smallsmile:

[Saph]

Watching the new Lawful Evil government set itself up really does give me the creeps. I think I prefer watching Xykon. :smallamused:

[Ancalagon]

I'm not sure about this update... I still think that "if there's no good joke available, I'd rather go without last-panel-punchline".

It's just "advance the story" updates at the moment and if there are no brilliant jokes that must be made in a situation then... let it be that way.

This is one reason SoD is as good as it is: It makes jokes where they fit but leaves them out when they don't fit. No need to squeeze one in on every page, some pages are perfectly happy just being "storypages".

This is just personal preference, though.

[BatRobin]

Curious. Prime Minister is a position with chief administrative powers but is not head of state, which can be an emperor or monarch. A Prime Minister can have the de facto powers of a head of state and the de jure head can be purely ceremonial but this still means Jirix can be legally removed from office. This head of state must be Redcloak and I doubt he's content to just make stirring speeches from balconies, write books and cut giant ribbons if he returns to Gobbotopia. I suspect Jirix will find some way to make sure Redcloak never returns.

IMO Redcloak just needed a name, Jirix could've been President or Supreme Leader for all Reddy cares.

[Drolyt]

I'm not sure about this update... I still think that "if there's no good joke available, I'd rather go without last-panel-punchline".

It's just "advance the story" updates at the moment and if there are no brilliant jokes that must be made in a situation then... let it be that way.

This is one reason SoD is as good as it is: It makes jokes where they fit but leaves them out when they don't fit. No need to squeeze one in on every page, some pages are perfectly happy just being "storypages".

This is just personal preference, though.

I think The Giant is trying to make sure there is a joke in every page though. The reason he could do it differently in SoD was explained in the intro to that book (or was it the other prequel?). Anyways it was something to the effect that since you would read the book form several pages at a time or even all in one go it didn't have to have a joke on every page and the Giant could focus on plot. Webcomics are different in that you want to be able to laugh at it every time a new comic comes out.

[kusje]

I think The Giant is trying to make sure there is a joke in every page though. The reason he could do it differently in SoD was explained in the intro to that book (or was it the other prequel?). Anyways it was something to the effect that since you would read the book form several pages at a time or even all in one go it didn't have to have a joke on every page and the Giant could focus on plot. Webcomics are different in that you want to be able to laugh at it every time a new comic comes out.

And yet this shouldn't excuse a weak joke or the fact that the comic would have been better off without the weak joke.

[Wolf_Plague]

"Don't go!"
"We love you, Supreme Leader!"
...
Dawwwwwww...:redface:


Watching the new Lawful Evil government :smallamused:
Lawful Evil? May be not really Good, but I don't see much Evil in Gobbotopia right now.

[krko]

Lawful Evil? May be not really Good, but I don't see much Evil in Gobbotopia right now.

Slavery and necromancy ring a bell?

[Drolyt]

And yet this shouldn't excuse a weak joke or the fact that the comic would have been better off without the weak joke.

True, but I personally liked that joke, so its a matter of opinion how "weak" it is. I think the main problem is that the joke is kind of confusing, and if you don't get a joke right away it isn't funny.

[salinan]

I don't think they're leaving without the phylactery. I think Redcloak is just getting his ducks in a row now, because Xykon told him they would be leaving two rounds after they found it. That wouldn't be enough time to transfer power to Jirix, so they're doing it in advance.
I'm not so sure.

Transferring power and then potentially hanging around for ages afterwards would only cause confusion amongst the hobgoblins about who actually is the boss, given Reddy specifically said that he wouldn't be staying. I'm thinking we're about to be told that the phylactery has been found (which was already known to Team Evil.) I doubt even Xykon would be so impatient that he wouldn't allow Redcloak to transfer power properly before leaving - regardless of what he said when the phylactery was lost.

[Wolf_Plague]

Slavery and necromancy ring a bell?

Maybe, but what about Gobbotopia itself?

[Optimystik]

Jirix coming along to the next Gate isn't actually a given, either - he is the best candidate to lead in Redcloak's absence. He literally gave his life to fight off "elven insurgents," thus cementing his dedication to Gobbotopia pretty firmly in the eyes of the populace.

He is also weaker in a stand-up fight, due to losing a level. What can he offer that Tsukiko and Redcloak can't?

Finally, he's also been sequestered with the Supreme Leader more than once, and has thereby learned the true perspective of their dream's volatility.

BAM! Totally NAILED IT!!! :smallbiggrin:


Lawful Evil? May be not really Good, but I don't see much Evil in Gobbotopia right now.

The roach disagrees with you.

[Ancalagon]

I think The Giant is trying to make sure there is a joke in every page though.

You don't have to think. He explicitly says so in one of the commentaries (SoD, I think). It's also to appease both audiences, those who come for the story and those who come for the giggles alone.

In case of a bad or stretched punchline for the only sake to have one for the "giggles-audience" I find that it actually devalues the comic for those who enjoy the giggles, but also come for the story.
That's what I said this was the case for #703. At least I find, as I said, that's my personal opinion, the "need to squeeze in a laugh in 100% of the cases" not to be advancing the general impression. If the punchline came only in 90% of the cases I'd be fine as well - even finer as some of the more serious comic would not lose their punch due to the punchline.

[Mant]

***Yawn***

[Ancalagon]

BAM! Totally NAILED IT!!! :smallbiggrin:.

You win a washing machine. ;)

[Saph]

Maybe, but what about Gobbotopia itself?

Well, let me see . . . its leaders are all Lawful Evil, the guy in charge of the leaders is Chaotic Evil, it's dedicated to an Evil deity, it goes in for use of Evil-subtype spells, its professed goal is to attract Evil-aligned races . . .

. . . oh, never mind.

[Gan The Grey]

Well, let me see . . . its leaders are all Lawful Evil, the guy in charge of the leaders is Chaotic Evil, it's dedicated to an Evil deity, it goes in for use of Evil-subtype spells, its professed goal is to attract Evil-aligned races . . .

. . . oh, never mind.

Wait, wait...I think it's coming to me...wait...

GAH. I lost it. :smallsmile:

[Roupe]

I think the warrior (strip 433 & panel 3)was lucky, Belkar didnt kill him & he never appeared in the other panels. Otherwise his name would have been diffrent ^^

[megabyter5]

Hobgoblin Cleric #2 would make a much better leader than Jirix! How dare Redcloak play favorites of the "named" NPCs! He's a dirty hypocrite!

...And I bet HE was the goblin who invented the oboe, too! DAMN YOU, REDCLOAK!

[factotum]

Why would Jirix have needed a Resurrection spell? He was dead for maybe 12, 18 hours tops when Redcloak raised him from the dead--Raise Dead would have worked just fine.

Anyway, this was pretty much as expected, I think--Redcloak knows he's going to have to leave soon, so he's got everything in place to ensure there isn't a dangerous vacuum of power once he's gone. I don't see why Jirix should try to keep Redcloak from returning, but I think that's a moot point anyway--I don't think Redcloak will get to return, and I'm not sure Gobbotopia will last long once the high-level leaders have gone anyway.

[3Power]

Resurrection? What a waste of diamonds and a level 7 slot. Jirix's body was completely intact and there was no real need for him to retain his spell slots. Raise dead would have been fine.

[Ancalagon]

Why would Jirix have needed a Resurrection spell?

Redcloak probably just used the biggest gun he had available...

[Optimystik]

Why would Jirix have needed a Resurrection spell? He was dead for maybe 12, 18 hours tops when Redcloak raised him from the dead--Raise Dead would have worked just fine.

Maybe O-Chul ruined an organ - RD doesn't replace body parts.

[Ancalagon]

Maybe O-Chul ruined an organ - RD doesn't replace body parts.

If it also applied to "injured internal organs", then you have a very mean DM as raise dead would likely be utterly pointless.
You don't die from nothing, you know? ;)

An adventurer always has a spike or whatever in his body and Raise Dead has to take care of that. Else, you'd come back with your still punctured lung and then just die again from the very same (internal) wound you earlier had died to.

I'm sure "body parts" really means "limbs". It has to or the spell would be utterly pointless.

[Kareasint]

The Roach had a good one liner there in panel one.

[Zonkerbl]

I think it was just an excuse to get Hobgoblin Cleric number 2's mother to yell at him, revealing that he really IS a nameless NPC. Well, not exactly NAMELESS, but...not exactly a real, plot element kind of name.

I wonder if his village had naming conventions similar to the goblins from Goblins.

Ooooooohhhhhhh, right. Ok, WHOOSH! Right over my head.

[Scarlet Knight]

:redcloak: "We set out to save Gobbotopia. And it has been saved. But not for me."

[Wolf_Plague]

Well, let me see . . . its leaders are all Lawful Evil, the guy in charge of the leaders is Chaotic Evil, it's dedicated to an Evil deity, it goes in for use of Evil-subtype spells, its professed goal is to attract Evil-aligned races . . .

. . . oh, never mind.

"Gamechanically" Evil yes, but I'm talking about "put stake through their chests first, ask questions never" type of evil. Xykon is a complete anus, Redcloak really needs to stop and think about his actions to be less of a hypocrite and "I'll just rewrite history later" sort of a guy, yes; what I think, however, is that the idea of "Lets stop being walking XP sacks and start having a life" is not all that awful as it looks. After all, isn't the major part of story arc is about characters being aware of the "Game Rules" and all logical flaws they contain?
In OotS Good or Evil tag on a character sheet sometimes miserably fails to describe true personality of a char. Hades, if even a crazy fas... person like Miko can horribly abuse her position and still remain (Lawful) Good, technically, how can we be sure, that "Evil-subtype spells" is a good enough reason for calling in a carpet bombing?

On less logical and more emotional note - looking at the hobgoblin mother with her kids I don't have an urge to splatter their guts over a floor, loot the place and call it a day. What's wrong with me, doc?:smallconfused:

[Nimrod's Son]

***yawn***

***Yawn***
Ditto. We get it, you can stop now.

[Optimystik]

If it also applied to "injured internal organs", then you have a very mean DM as raise dead would likely be utterly pointless.
You don't die from nothing, you know? ;)

It closes holes - that's it. It does not replace anything that was destroyed.

And actually, there are a number of ways you can die without losing pieces. Poison, disease, bleeding out, suffocation...

Raise Dead can handle all of those.

EDIT: Besides, Rich IS a "very mean DM." You can't critical someone's eye out in the normal rules!

[Ancalagon]

So, if you die because someone put a (massive) sword through your heart but the body is othervise totally intact, you cannot come back with Raise Dead?

I'm fairly certain it's not how it is used in playing and also not how it is meant. D&D handles damage in a very abstract way and the only exceptions if things are explicitly destroyed. A limb, an organ is cut out your body, an eye - none that happend to Jirix.
So Raise Dead would have been sufficient.

I don't think Rich is a "mean" DM. He just tries to de-abstract the rules (your sword does not only "do damage" but really "strikes something that you need for a living" and tries to make the plot/story more interesting (loosing an eye for Lefteye surely makes a more interesting story as just getting X * 2 damage).

[Optimystik]

So, if you die because someone put a (massive) sword through your heart but the body is othervise totally intact, you cannot come back with Raise Dead?

I'm fairly certain it's not how it is used in playing and also not how it is meant. D&D handles damage in a very abstract way and the only exceptions if things are explicitly destroyed. A limb, an organ is cut out your body, an eye - none that happend to Jirix.
So Raise Dead would have been sufficient.

Yes you can, because that counts as "closing mortal wounds." But lacking an x-ray, we don't know exactly what happened inside Jirix.

All I'm saying is that Resurrection may have been necessary. We don't actually know how badly O-Chul damaged him, other than that the wound was instantly fatal and the bar went all the way through.


I don't think Rich is a "mean" DM. He just tries to de-abstract the rules (your sword does not only "do damage" but really "strikes something that you need for a living" and tries to make the plot/story more interesting (loosing an eye for Lefteye surely makes a more interesting story as just getting X * 2 damage).

Ah, but now you're trying to have it both ways. "Striking something that you need for living" can ruin it in such a way that Raise Dead cannot replace it.

[Snake-Aes]

Can't it simply be that redcloak had no better use for the spell slot?
Can't it simply be that Jirix just said "resurrection" simply because it makes sense in context and is easier to say than "raise dead"?

[Optimystik]

Can't it simply be that Jirix just said "resurrection" simply because it makes sense in context and is easier to say than "raise dead"?

That is certainly possible.


Can't it simply be that redcloak had no better use for the spell slot?

That I severely doubt - first, because it's prohibitively more expensive than a simple RD, and second, because it requires holy water, which Redcloak can't create himself and therefore must purchase.

[SaintRidley]

Or, maybe, Redcloak had Resurrection prepared and didn't have Raise Dead prepared, so he used Resurrection.

[Blaznak]

Ooooooookay.....

[Optimystik]

Or, maybe, Redcloak had Resurrection prepared and didn't have Raise Dead prepared, so he used Resurrection.

That's also possible :smalltongue:

[Acero]

wow. people predicted Jirix would be the new leader and the Giant didn't change it. Im suprised

[DabblerWizard]

Prime Minister Jirix is going to make an "interesting" ruler.

[Optimystik]

wow. people predicted Jirix would be the new leader and the Giant didn't change it. Im suprised

He said on the forums that he doesn't actually change anything in the comic based on what we predict. The FAQ statement was just hyperbole.

[Saph]

"Gamechanically" Evil yes, but I'm talking about "put stake through their chests first, ask questions never" type of evil.

The inhabitants of Gobbotopia got their new state by invading it and killing, enslaving, or zombifying all of its previous occupants, and seem to have thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I'd say they qualify. Everything about the new state screams Lawful Evil, both gamewise and actionwise. The fact that pretty much all of the residents we know of have an Evil alignment doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know.

[Ancalagon]

Ah, but now you're trying to have it both ways. "Striking something that you need for living" can ruin it in such a way that Raise Dead cannot replace it.

Yes, but damage in D&D does not really work that way.
"Got killed in any way but the body is more or less intact" -> Raise Dead.
"Some limb is missing, the body is badly damaged, or someone deliberatly removed an organ" -> You need more than Raise Dead.

Some dieing to simply getting stabbed with a stab-thing will, on a game-table, always result in Raise Dead.
A DM who says "Haha, that last stab smashed your heart and now you need Ressurrection!!1" will earn - well deserved! - protest. Why should it different now?

Yeah, Resurrection MIGHT have been needed. But it seems a stretch to assume it actually was needed as no game-situation of such a simple stabbing (even with a critical + smite evil) with a sane DM will require more than Raise Dead.

[Arakune]

Part of the comic is missing for me. Anyone else got the same problem?

[Optimystik]

Some dieing to simply getting stabbed with a stab-thing will, on a game-table, always result in Raise Dead.
A DM who says "Haha, that last stab smashed your heart and now you need Ressurrection!!1" will earn - well deserved! - protest. Why should it different now?

And I would argue that a DM that says "That critical took your eye out - you now have a permanent penalty to Spot checks and Charisma" would probably gain similar protest.

As Ridley pointed out, the spell could have been Raise Dead anyway.


Yeah, Resurrection MIGHT have been needed. But it seems a stretch to assume it actually was needed as no game-situation of such a simple stabbing (even with a critical + smite evil) with a sane DM will require more than Raise Dead.

Perhaps. I'm merely pointing out the possibility. If Jirix was speaking accurately and not merely using "Resurrection" as an easier term, there must be a reason for it. Mine is just one, not the only one.

[Tundar]

MitD is ace. Damn I love that guy :smallbiggrin:

Also, is the idom "Don't cry over spilt milk" in play here?

[ericgrau]

We will miss you hobgoblin warrior from strip #433, panel 3. May you rest in peace.

[factotum]

Or, maybe, Redcloak had Resurrection prepared and didn't have Raise Dead prepared, so he used Resurrection.

So he'd rather spend an additional fortune on spell components than just wait 24 hours and prepare a different spell? It's fairly unlikely he would have had Raise Dead *or* Resurrection prepared when V attacked, in any case--there's just no reason to prepare those spells on a "normal" day because you can't cast them in combat (10 minute cast time) and a dead person won't get any deader because you left it until the next morning!

[kusje]

So he'd rather spend an additional fortune on spell components than just wait 24 hours and prepare a different spell? It's fairly unlikely he would have had Raise Dead *or* Resurrection prepared when V attacked, in any case--there's just no reason to prepare those spells on a "normal" day because you can't cast them in combat (10 minute cast time) and a dead person won't get any deader because you left it until the next morning!

I wouldn't consider it a "fortune" at his level and position (leader of a huge army).

[sihnfahl]

I wouldn't consider it a "fortune" at his level and position (leader of a huge army).
Well, 10k gp could buy a heck of a lot of supplies to reinforce Gobbotopia's defenses...


what I think, however, is that the idea of "Lets stop being walking XP sacks and start having a life" is not all that awful as it looks.
However, look at the methods and WHY Redcloak wants access to the Gates. What's his aim for the Gates?


Hades, if even a crazy fas... person like Miko can horribly abuse her position and still remain (Lawful) Good
The Code allowed her to do it. An over-zealous application of the Code, but she adhered to it nonetheless.

[TooManySecrets]

Meet the New Boss

...same as the old?

[Ancalagon]

And I would argue that a DM that says "That critical took your eye out - you now have a permanent penalty to Spot checks and Charisma" would probably gain similar protest.

Depends:
If it happens in a random fight... yes.
If it happens to a character like Redcloak with a history like Redcloak, I'd look at my DM and say: That's just... awesome!


As Ridley pointed out, the spell could have been Raise Dead anyway.

Possible. But as Jirix is a cleric himself it's unlikely. Any other char might not know better and use the terms in the wrong way... but for him it's the vocabulary of his own profession (which is, in a cleric's case, also a religious calling). Unlikely that someone does use those terms in the "wrong" way, I say.

[fruityjanitor]

:smallsmile:
Maybe the barbecue is hydra heads?

We can only hope!

[Optimystik]

Depends:
If it happens in a random fight... yes.
If it happens to a character like Redcloak with a history like Redcloak, I'd look at my DM and say: That's just... awesome!

Whether it's "awesome" or not has no bearing on its status as DM fiat.


Possible. But as Jirix is a cleric himself it's unlikely. Any other char might not know better and use the terms in the wrong way... but for him it's the vocabulary of his own profession (which is, in a cleric's case, also a religious calling). Unlikely that someone does use those terms in the "wrong" way, I say.

Just because he's a Cleric, doesn't make him a guru. For instance, Redcloak himself has the Law domain, but doesn't even know the spells that are in it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

[Turkish Delight]

I wonder how Hobgoblin Cleric #2's family would have reacted if he had grown up and announced he wanted to be a dentist?

[EENick]

Wow, that hobgoblin warrior was a lucky one!
Belkar just let him walk away.

Um Belkar didn't just let him walk away. He was under the Mark of Justice at the time so he was waiting for undead to come up which he could kill in the city, he was just letting the other guards kill the goblins so as not to bring down the curse on himself.

On the foreshadowing front I'm more interested in the way Redcloak is frowning at Jirix when he starts making jokes. I think Redcloak is worried Jirix might have spent too much time with a Xyklon.

[B.I.T.T.]

Good Comic.

Too bad there's no way to measure the number of people who after reading it clicked right over to the archive to read comic # 433 to take a look at panel 3.

[B.I.T.T.]

I wonder how Hobgoblin Cleric #2's family would have reacted if he had grown up and announced he wanted to be a dentist?

...or what if Hobgoblin Warrior from 433 in panel 3 was late in getting to the wall and didn't get up until panel 4. Imagine all those wasted years!

[Thalnawr]

Just because he's a Cleric, doesn't make him a guru. For instance, Redcloak himself has the Law domain, but doesn't even know the spells that are in it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)
I thought that was more a case of him not knowing that the High Priest of the 12 Gods had chosen that domain at character creation.

[Ellen]

Jirix actually sounds a little like Roy:smalleek:

I may change my mind after the barbeque, but, if that turns out to be what he's really like --

1. If he and Roy ever meet, they'll probably have an easier time negotiating than most humans and hobgoblins.

2. He'll try to do the best he can at his job and the best he can for his people, regardless of a good sales pitch or "future good" promised by team evil/The Plan.

3. Like Roy, he's been dead and brought back. Roy probably spent a lot more time dead (fiction rules allow the Giant to do whatever he wants with the timeline on that point, even if it only looks like Jirix was gone five minutes).

But, although Roy may barely remember it, he did get a lot of important info and some training - which is still there even if he doesn't remember details.

So, imagine a Roy-like character meeting the Dark One and getting a summary on The Plan.

There may be some boat rocking in the near future.

[Neopolis]

...or what if Hobgoblin Warrior from 433 in panel 3 was late in getting to the wall and didn't get up until panel 4. Imagine all those wasted years!
Or maybe he called in sick and he's still alive! And became a cleric! Cue the fan wank! :o

[ThePhantasm]

Wait, wait...I think it's coming to me...wait...


That's what she said.


Redcloak probably just used the biggest gun he had available...

That's what she said.


Maybe O-Chul ruined an organ

That's what she said....


Interesting strip. The punchline was funny. I'm glad things will be moving along in the story now..... oh, and are they leaving WITHOUT the phylactery as I predicted?!?!?

[Eck]

is it just me, or is the unknown creature doing a pretty spot on impression of the cover of Mark Eitzel's album called The Invisible Man? Framing and even color scheme are similar in this strip... not to mention content hehe http://static.boomkat.com/images/277165/333.jpg

[Optimystik]

I thought that was more a case of him not knowing that the High Priest of the 12 Gods had chosen that domain at character creation.

If that was the case, I think his reaction would've been "You have the Law domain?" rather than "You get that spell?"

Though of course, proving that Redcloak is 100% accurate with cleric terminology says nothing about Jirix anyway.

[sihnfahl]

oh, and are they leaving WITHOUT the phylactery as I predicted?!?!?
Well, we haven't heard the status of the phylactery search yet.

Plus, it would only make sense for RC to get Jirix situated in and help out as the increased duties pile on.

RC has been grooming Jirix and has now taken off the training wheels. That doesn't mean RC won't walk beside him for a bit to help catch him...

[DreadArchon]

The joke at the end was excellent. :smallbiggrin:

[The MunchKING]

I'm not so sure.

Transferring power and then potentially hanging around for ages afterwards would only cause confusion amongst the hobgoblins about who actually is the boss, given Reddy specifically said that he wouldn't be staying. I'm thinking we're about to be told that the phylactery has been found (which was already known to Team Evil.) I doubt even Xykon would be so impatient that he wouldn't allow Redcloak to transfer power properly before leaving - regardless of what he said when the phylactery was lost.

Or Redcloak is going to "just happen to find" the phylanctiary right after the speach. Or maybe "just got told about it being found". So he'll have gotten his transfer of power and Xykon will get his hasty warp out as soon as redcloak tells him it's found.

[Kish]

If that was the case, I think his reaction would've been "You have the Law domain?" rather than "You get that spell?"

Redcloak has to know Hold Monster is in the Law domain. The reason we know Redcloak has the Law domain is Redcloak using Hold Monster in Start of Darkness.


Though of course, proving that Redcloak is 100% accurate with cleric terminology says nothing about Jirix anyway.
Indeed.

[Optimystik]

Redcloak has to know Hold Monster is in the Law domain. The reason we know Redcloak has the Law domain is Redcloak using Hold Monster in Start of Darkness.

Exactly, so the fact that he is surprised by a cleric having access to that spell is suspect.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just because he's a Cleric, doesn't make him a guru. For instance, Redcloak himself has the Law domain, but doesn't even know the spells that are in it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

I always took he was surprised the clerc had Hold Monster, he may now it is on the domain list but not that the Twelve god's high priest had that domain

Edit: Damn I am Ninja

[Aaron]

Anyone else go look at 433?

I think we all did.

I really liked the last panel joke. :smallsmile:

[Optimystik]

I always took he was surprised the clerc had Hold Monster, he may now it is on the domain list but not that the Twelve god's high priest had that domain

As I said before, a more logical question then would be "Wait, you have the Law domain?" rather than "Wait, you have Hold Monster?"

Though really, this side discussion proves nothing about Jirix either way.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As I said before, a more logical question then would be "Wait, you have the Law domain?" rather than "Wait, you have Hold Monster?"

Though really, this side discussion proves nothing about Jirix either way.
Wait a minute did SoD came out to sales before strip #433?if so maybe Rich hadn't decided Redcloak's domains yet

[rewinn]

Well, 10k gp could buy a heck of a lot of supplies to reinforce Gobbotopia's defenses...

Yah but they looted a very large city (the Azurites had less than a day to evacuate and must have left a lot behind). I don't think a diamond shortage is really likely.


Part of the comic is missing for me. Anyone else got the same problem?
Try reloading the page; if your connection died the automatic "Raise Connection" spell might not repair seriously damaged images; you need full "Resurrect Page" for that.

[Elfin]

Excellent. :smallsmile:

But is it just me, or is Redcloak's skin a different color?

[the_tick_rules]

Raise your hand if you went to 433 panel 3 to see the person in question.

[Big Hungry Joe]

One of the best first panels I've ever read. The gag about being named generically is also fun, although knowing how background hobgoblins are interrelated remind me of how by the end of the horrible Star Wars prequels all of the main characters had about 1 degree of separation from one another. If we learn in a flashback that Xykon actually built a prissy protocol golem when he was a kid, I may have to file a formal complaint.

[Elfin]

Raise your hand if you went to 433 panel 3 to see the person in question.

Ok...I admit to it.

[Draconi Redfir]

and now i know what a female hobgoblin looks like...

[licoot]

glad to see are old friend hobgoblin from page 433 panel 3 retern

[Mando Knight]

If we learn in a flashback that Xykon actually built a prissy protocol golem when he was a kid, I may have to file a formal complaint.

It was actually a prissy protocol wight, but same difference. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Raging Gene Ray]

Jirix actually sounds a little like Roy:smalleek:

:smallconfused: How so?

[Adama]

Is it just me, or did Reddy look a little annoyed by Jirix's banter? :smallbiggrin:

He does. Maybe a little upset at the ease with which Jirix is taking his place, and winning over the population? Being that Redcloak is already on tenuous footing with Xykon, and other losses of power or influence might have him on edge. He's learning how much Xykon considers him disposable, and now he's realizing that his position as beloved leader of Gobbotopia might not be as secure as he thought it was.

Or maybe he just isn't wild about the idea of a comedian in chief.


One can't help but wonder what Team Evil is up to, though, if they are in fact leaving without the phylactery, as it appears. Dang suspense! :smalltongue:

I like the theory that they've found it already and Redcloak is just waiting to tell Xykon until all the ducks are in a row. It matches Red's previous examples of manipulating Xykon for his own necessities--and I don't think he's suffered enough for that yet to stop doing it, when it's the only real path left open to him that MIGHT yield what he wants.

[Teleporker]

Excellent. :smallsmile:

But is it just me, or is Redcloak's skin a different color?

I see the same color, but then you reminded me of something here.

Isn't the light from the rift supposed to make Redcloak's complexion look pasty when he's outside?

Ok, Maybe it can be explained by not being on the top of the tower where you were close to the rift. But still, light is made of particles that (Blah-blah-blah) dispersion would account for (Yawn!!!) and let's not forg(Booooo-ring!) so shouldn't he be looking like a dried lettuce when he's on the patio?

[BillyJimBoBob]

"Gamechanically" Evil yes, but I'm talking about "put stake through their chests first, ask questions never" type of evil. Xykon is a complete anus, Redcloak really needs to stop and think about his actions to be less of a hypocrite and "I'll just rewrite history later" sort of a guy, yes; what I think, however, is that the idea of "Lets stop being walking XP sacks and start having a life" is not all that awful as it looks.It's nice to have sympathy for the bad guys, but it usually comes from them showing that they aren't really all that bad. A totally neutral display of a transfer of power shouldn't be evoking that kind of feeling. That is neutral behavior at best, and does nothing to make one ignore the circumstances behind the rise of their new nation, or the character of the members of their citizenry.
Aside from all the great points krko have made about necromancy and slavery, and Saph made about the demonstrated character of the leadership, go re-read the referenced strip #433, where the goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear army is attacking the Paladin (i.e. Lawful Good) led city of Azure. And pay special attention to the last panel. Who laughs at the very concept of using healing to bolster your troops? Evils. Who raises undead to bolster their army? Evils. And the self-admission of being the bad guys should be enough to drive the point home quite firmly.

After all, isn't the major part of story arc is about characters being aware of the "Game Rules" and all logical flaws they contain?No. Where did you get that? Goblins and other evil humanoids are just walking EXP sacks for the PCs. This will never change.

In OotS Good or Evil tag on a character sheet sometimes miserably fails to describe true personality of a char. Hades, if even a crazy fas... person like Miko can horribly abuse her position and still remain (Lawful) Good, technically, how can we be sure, that "Evil-subtype spells" is a good enough reason for calling in a carpet bombing?Your point would be accurate, except for the small fact that Miko did indeed fall. So clearly even a crazy fas... person like Miko can not horribly abuse her position and remain Lawful Good, or a Paladin.

On less logical and more emotional note - looking at the hobgoblin mother with her kids I don't have an urge to splatter their guts over a floor, loot the place and call it a day. What's wrong with me, doc?:smallconfused:Don't you want to level? Again, just because the mother hobgoblin didn't say that she was going to turn over the halfling fillets before they burned doesn't make her a sympathetic character. We don't need to see evil in every panel to understand that they are evil, and therefore full of juicy EXP.

[hamishspence]

No. Where did you get that? Goblins and other evil humanoids are just walking EXP sacks for the PCs. This will never change.

To quote The Giant in War & XPs:


Most damning, though, is a decades-long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods (a point that is seen directly in the pages of Start of Darkness). That the city's undoing should be orchestrated by Redcloak, a villain that they themselves accidentally created, is only fitting. The Twelve Gods might have sanctioned their massacres, but even the gods can't stop Karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while.

Does not sound like "goblins are walking EXP sacks- this will never change" is in store.

[lord of kobolds]

Raise your hand if you went to 433 panel 3 to see the person in question.

*hand-raise*

[hamishspence]

*hand raise*

Also- in Origin of PCs, Roy's attitude toward "killing evil beings because they are a convenient source of XP" seems to express the general tone of the comic on the subject:

"I may find that I need to kill creatures in the service of a higher duty, or for self-defense, but I refuse to kill anyone because it's slightly more convenient than talking to them"

That plus the comment about Familicide in DStP:

I've always been interested in the ideas that would result from some of the more game-oriented conceits of the implied setting, especially the ways that sentient monsters are treated. Vaarsuvius finds him/herself at the dragon's mercy because he/she never thinks to take precautions against her, despite knowing that the dragon he/she killed shared a home with another.

Varsuvius then repeats and amplifies this misconception when he/she casts the custom-made familicide spell, essentially speaking for all players who say, "All monsters are evil and exist only for us to kill." But hopefully, when the reader sees the scale on which Vaasuvius carries out the devastation, the error of this thinking is more obvious. If it is wrong to kill a thousand dragons simply because they are dragons, then it is wrong to kill a single dragon for the same reasons.

Also, I'm not sure what it says about fantasy roleplaying that I felt the need to make the argument against genocide. Possibly best that I not think about it too much.

strongly suggests The Giant is not fond of the position "Monsters only exist to be killed for XP."

[Mr. Scaly]

So creating the oboe is worthy of a spot amongst the damned, eh?

[Nilan8888]

Prime Minister Jirix is going to make an "interesting" ruler.

Yes, I agree. we don't know too much about Jirix though he's been around for a while. And his joke at the beginning is the opposite of what I would have expected: it suggests a more laid-back sort of individual. If you're expecting the Goblin nation to destroy itself then you'd think we'd be setting out on a different foot.

Usually the "Revolutionaries who go to far" -- St-Just, Robespierre, Mao, Lenin, maybe Trotsky although I don't know enough about him -- are pretty humorless individuals who take their cause of bettering makind by destroying it rather seriously.

This could be a number of things:

1. Is Jirix being set up to reverse his inital persona? It could be, much like Robespierre himself, that Jirix is being shown as a warm and cuddly guy... and probably IS warm and cuddly... only to be the complete opposite of this once he is in charge? (Star Wars was probably at its most interesting years ago for me when this was a possibility for the Emperor -- when it wound up he was 'teh Evil Mastermind' all along and all the Jedi in the Galaxy just somehow couldn't detect him for some vague reason, I lost interest pretty quickly)

That might, however, require more of a build-up of Jirix than we've seen and have time to do just yet. To lament the Jirix was a swell guy who turned into a brutal autocratic monster can be a bit of a stretch on the back of one witty joke he told this one time as he was given the mantle of power.

It might actually be that Jirix may be a Stalin/Napoleon prototype, or at least how we often percieve them. That is, someone who comes to power during the 'Revolution' but in fact is, as Thomas Paine essentially described Napoeon, a great swindler who really cares first and foremost about personal power, with the betterment of Goblinkind coming at a distant second.


2. Is Jirix being set up as a weak leader? That seems more in line with his joke, and could foretell internal squabblings or war bringing an end to the goblin nation... although this sort of, I think, detaches RedCloak's culpability, if that's where we were going: judging by his actions and even his response in this comic, RedCloak's definately not in favor of a weak leader. If Jirix falters and loses everything RedCloak achieved by carrying on in precisely the opposite way RedCloak would have, that just suggests RedCloak is right in the way he does things. After all, while he's chosen Jirix, RedCloak's having this situation forced on him somewhat: he HAS to go with Xykon to find the gate, and Xykon if anything has given a considerable endorsement to Jirix.

So is the message here that RedCloak was in the right up until the point of allying with Xykon and leaving his country at a critical stage, or that the way Redcloak himself started everything that the seeds to its destruction were already planted and Jirix just builds upon them?


It's all a bit early to tell. The funny thing is that "Meet The New Boss" is clearly a nod to 'Won't Get Fooled Again'... yet the actual distinctive thing shown in the comic is that the New Boss (Jirix) actually does NOT seem like the old Boss... whether that be Redcloak, Xykon, or the 'fascist paladin lackeys'. So the irony of the line isn't actually showing up in this comic because it's played straight, there's no hint he's the same as anyone before him. Maybe it's a setup for a later comic far, far down the line entited "...Same as the Old Boss" where Jirix ends up in something like point 1 above, but that's specualtion at this point.

Actually I suppose if anything you could say he DOES resemble the 'old boss' if your argument is that Jirix seems more laid back like Shinjo was. But then that observation kinda plays against type and against the anti-nationalist themes we've seen a lot in OOTS: for the land to return to Shinjo-ist type leadership hardly seems tragic. Azure City got along plenty well under Shinjo. Perhaps it might seem a tragedy to RedCloak but in that case he's succeeded in spite of himself (or rather Jirix would succeed in spite of RedCloak).

In all it seems as if SOMETHING is foreshadowed here, but it's hard to see how or even if it actually dovetails with our expectations of Gobbotopia crashing and burning.

[Dr.Epic]

Loved the joke. Oh NPCs don't get real names. Also, any idea if the giant knew which comic 433 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html) was or did he just pick one at random?

[Selene]

That plus the comment about Familicide in DStP:

I've always been interested in the ideas that would result from some of the more game-oriented conceits of the implied setting, especially they ways that sentient monsters are treated. Vaarsuvius finds him/herself at the dragon's mercy because he/she never thinks to take precautions against her, despite knowing that the dragon he/she killed shared a home with another.

Varsuvius then repeats and amplifies this misconception when he/she casts the custom-made familicide spell, essentially speaking for all players who say, "All monsters are evil and exist only for us to kill." But hopefully, when the reader sees the scale on which Vaasuvius carries out the devastation, the error of this thinking is more obvious. If it is wrong to kill a thousand dragons simply because they are dragons, then it is wrong to kill a single dragon for the same reasons.

Also, I'm not sure what it says about fantasy roleplaying that I felt the need to making the argument against genocide. Possibly best that I not think about it too much.

strongly suggests The Giant is not fond of the position "Monsters only exist to be killed for XP."

Every single person who insisted that V's dragon slaughter was a good act should have to write that quote on a chalkboard 100 times.

[Optimystik]

Every single person who insisted that V's dragon slaughter was a good act should have to write that quote on a chalkboard 100 times.

In their own blood.

With their fingernails.
RAEG

[Hyoumu Yau]

In their own blood.

With their fingernails.
RAEG

While standing on burning hot sand and having their back and neck poked with chili-soaked needles.

[Conuly]

Oh, we finally got an official word on that?

GOOD.

[chiasaur11]

I'm just glad to see old 433 again.

Been too long.

[Zanaril]

Oh, we finally got an official word on that?

GOOD.

Except is 'wrong' the same thing as 'Evil'? :smallwink:

[Draconi Redfir]

wait...


female goblinoids have HAIR!


this brings "male pattern baldness" to a whole new meaning. :smalleek:

[Teleporker]

So it is as officially guessed, and Redcloak is leaving, and two theories are hanging around the thread:

1- Redcloak is preparing because the phylactery can be found at any minute, and he wants to be ready, or

2- The phylactery has been found, and he's teleporting out of there in three strips tops.

So who's up for which theory? Me, I think they found it, and maybe -just maybe- Redcloak is holding to it for just long enough to settle things in Gobbotopia. To me, something like this would make sense in order to move the story forward without contradicting Xykon's statement. Any takers?

[slb]

Wait, when did MitD learn to read ?

IRRC he wasn't able to read the letter from the High priest of Odin just before the assault on Azure city.

[hamishspence]

It's not clear whether he could read it or not- he comments about the lack of colour coding and bullet points.

Then tries to eat it.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html

[Gift Jeraff]

Speculation:Xykon will want to bring Jirix along (Else why would he, of all people, tell Redcloak to bring some hobbo back?), thus causing trouble for Gobbotopia and leaving them susceptible to the inevitable attack. My personal guess is that Jirix will be the new phylactery holder and back-up Bearer of the Crimson Mantle (in case something happens with Redcloak).
Also, I was thinking it would be interesting if Hobgoblin Cleric #2 (and Hobgoblin Cleric #1?) became recurring characters--possibly antagonistic to Team Evil without being heroic in anyway. Just thought it would be interesting to have supporting characters with such names. :smallamused:

Also, I think this is the third goblinoid female we've seen with "normal" feet (the others being Redcloak's mother and another woman from his old village), so that may kill any idea that Redcloak has human (or some other PC race) blood. (EDIT: Then again, D&D humans and dragons are rather...promiscuous...so it's not that unlikely that separate goblinoid tribes have history with human...relations.)

EDIT: Regarding the Raise Dead/Resurrection issue--maybe those two spells, Reincarnate, and True Resurrection are just grouped together as "Resurrection spells"?

[The Recreator]

Regarding Raise Dead vs. Resurrection:

Raise Dead is fully capable of healing wounds, normal poisons, and can be cast up to 1 day per caster level away from the target's death. However, if Jirix were turned into an undead before Redcloak could get to him with a Raise Dead, he would need Resurrection.

Most likely case, Redcloak was busy with something else and Xykon decided to pester him about it by zombifying Jirix and ordering him into shuffle into Redcloak's room. Cue argument about "waste of resources".

[BillyJimBoBob]

To quote The Giant in War & XPs: [snipped]
Does not sound like "goblins are walking EXP sacks- this will never change" is in store.He says that the gods will does not prevent Karma from bringing about some comeuppance. I didn't read anything in there about the status quo heading for a change.


Ok, Maybe it can be explained by not being on the top of the tower where you were close to the rift. But still, light is made of particles that (Blah-blah-blah) dispersion would account for (Yawn!!!) and let's not forg(Booooo-ring!) so shouldn't he be looking like a dried lettuce when he's on the patio?I award you 1 Tubernet (it's an internet which uses TCP/ICarrot) for that amusing post.


Xykon will want to bring Jirix along (Else why would he, of all people, tell Redcloak to bring some hobbo back?)Because he had the decency to shout a warning?


Also- in Origin of PCs, Roy's attitude toward "killing evil beings because they are a convenient source of XP" seems to express the general tone of the comic on the subject:
"I may find that I need to kill creatures in the service of a higher duty, or for self-defense, but I refuse to kill anyone because it's slightly more convenient than talking to them"
[...]
strongly suggests The Giant is not fond of the position "Monsters only exist to be killed for XP."If Rich is not fond of that position, then he should have done a better job of clearly conveying it to the readers. It is a position which has been rather inconsistently shown within the strip, even if you only look at Roy's acts. And acts tend to count a whole lot more than words. It's easy to say that you believe in something, and harder to live up to your beliefs if they are challenged. And within the strip there are several cases where Roy doesn't bat an eye about killing evil aligned beings rather than even attempting any negotiation.

[factotum]

However, if Jirix were turned into an undead before Redcloak could get to him with a Raise Dead, he would need Resurrection.


It doesn't make any difference. Neither Resurrection nor Raise Dead will work on somebody that has been turned into an undead unless said undead is destroyed first. (And doing that would be trivial for a cleric of Redcloak's level, so it would be a darned sight easier for him to just destroy undead Jirix and then Raise Dead on the corpse).

[Gift Jeraff]

Because he had the decency to shout a warning?
Exactly. You think Xykon told him to raise Jirix to return the favour? The decency to shout a warning shows (in Xykon's mind, at least) that he has Xykon's interests in mind, or at least that he is more competent than Redcloak (again, in Xykon's mind).

[Teddy]

Also, I think this is the third goblinoid female we've seen with "normal" feet (the others being Redcloak's mother and another woman from his old village), so that may kill any idea that Redcloak has human (or some other PC race) blood. (EDIT: Then again, D&D humans and dragons are rather...promiscuous...so it's not that unlikely that separate goblinoid tribes have history with human...relations.)

Don't forget the goblin in the bathroom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html). Or Right-Eye's wife and wife's cousine and daughter.


If Rich is not fond of that position, then he should have done a better job of clearly conveying it to the readers. It is a position which has been rather inconsistently shown within the strip, even if you only look at Roy's acts. And acts tend to count a whole lot more than words. It's easy to say that you believe in something, and harder to live up to your beliefs if they are challenged. And within the strip there are several cases where Roy doesn't bat an eye about killing evil aligned beings rather than even attempting any negotiation.

If you believe that the only best way to solve every single problem is violence, then you're evil. If you believe that the only best way to solve every single problem is negotiation, then you're naive. Rushing straight into the Dungeon of Dorukan and try to negotiate your way past every single goblin simply shouldn't be possible. It's not evil to attack when it's neccessary (hostile enemies capable of doing harm at the moment, for example), but it is when bloodshed easily can be avoided.

If Roy had killed every orc in the warcamp before they calmed down, then it wouldn't have been evil, since they attacked him and posed a threat to him at the moment, but if he had attacked them afterwards, then it would be evil, since it would be unneccessary bloodshed that no one would benefit from and they weren't threatening anyone.

Note that the specific may sometimes overrule the general, so there might be specific cases overruling these generalisations.

[Prowl]

Where do I sign up for the HWfS443P3 fan club?

[BillyJimBoBob]

If you believe that the only best way to solve every single problem is violence, then you're evil. If you believe that the only best way to solve every single problem is negotiation, then you're naive.I would agree with this, in general. There are huge amounts of qualifiers that can be applied here, however.

If you believe that the best way to solve the presence of evil humanoids in a dungeon setting (i.e. far away from other sources of law or authority other than your own resources.) is violence, you're an adventurer. This may be objectionable to some, but it is a truism of most medieval setting FRPGs.

Rushing straight into the Dungeon of Dorukan and try to negotiate your way past every single goblin simply shouldn't be possible. It's not evil to attack when it's neccessary (hostile enemies capable of doing harm at the moment, for example), but it is when bloodshed easily can be avoided.The sleeping goblins were no longer any kind of threat, and could have been bound and gagged to be dealt with later. And in any event there was zero attempt to speak with them before violence was done to them. This was not naive, it was smart.

The adolescent black dragon was a part of a side quest, and was not a death Roy brought about while serving some higher cause. The debates in this forum have been epic over whether killing the dragon was "morally justified" or not, but no matter your position on that debate you can not claim that Roy's stated value system of only killing for a higher cause or in self defense rather than talking was adhered to. This was a dragon which had been speaking to them all along, and yet there was no effort to bargain or negotiate, none at all. They didn't want the dragons treasure (well, maybe other than Haley. Or Belkar. Or probably V. Damn, maybe other than all of them, really), they only wanted/needed the starmetal. They could have easily tried to bargain for it. My personal value system says that a black dragon (always chaotic evil, and also color coded for our convenience) encountered by an adventuring party in a dungeon setting is fair game for slaying and looting, but if you're trying to tell me that Roy believes otherwise, I sure don't see this belief being demonstrated by actions.

[Mr. Pin]

So, will Tsukiko be coming with the bad guys? my guess is they leave her in charge.

[Optimystik]

So, will Tsukiko be coming with the bad guys? my guess is they leave her in charge.

I doubt she will want to leave Xykon's side to live in a city full of goblins. Though Jirix, I suspect, could use the magical support.

In addition, I don't see Xykon having her study the ritual, if he planned to leave her behind.

[Teleporker]

So, will Tsukiko be coming with the bad guys? my guess is they leave her in charge.

I think she made it clear that she wants to get all hubba-hubba with Xykon, so she would not stay behind if she has something to say about it.

Plus, if she did get her homework right, Xykon will likely move her to the "actually useful minion" category and take her with him anyway. Plus she does his bidding when he wants to have fun by setting up paladins against gladiators behind Redcloak's back.

[Dragero]

I wonder how many people went to strip 443 today.......

[Gift Jeraff]

Don't forget the goblin in the bathroom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html). Or Right-Eye's wife and wife's cousine and daughter.Er, did you stop reading my post at "seen"? :smallconfused: I said female goblinoid with "normal" feet. All 3 of those had typical gobbo feet. Some have speculated that Redcloak's mum having the standard humanoid feet art hints that he may have some human lineage, allowing for hilarity to ensure when he finds out he's related to the race of people he hates so dearly. I personally think it just means that some females are less monstrous-looking, or maybe they wear some footwear.


I wonder how many people went to strip 443 today.......Probably not as much as those who went to 433. :smallcool:

[The Recreator]

It doesn't make any difference. Neither Resurrection nor Raise Dead will work on somebody that has been turned into an undead unless said undead is destroyed first. (And doing that would be trivial for a cleric of Redcloak's level, so it would be a darned sight easier for him to just destroy undead Jirix and then Raise Dead on the corpse).

d20 SRD - Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raisedead.htm)
d20 SRD - Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm)
d20 SRD - Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType)

Taking into account all three articles, particularly the last one ("Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures."), one might surmise that Raise Dead is powerless against any creature that has been turned into an undead, while Resurrection would work on any creature that was once undead but is currently destroyed. Regardless, there's still the possibility that Redcloak or somebody overkilled zombie Jirix, requiring a Resurrection to bring back the lost limbs.

Of course, I'd have to defer to the ruling of the DM or any more experienced player here. I'm just throwing in my two cp.:smallcool:

[Teddy]

Er, did you stop reading my post at "seen"? :smallconfused: I said female goblinoid with "normal" feet. All 3 of those had typical gobbo feet. Some have speculated that Redcloak's mum having the standard humanoid feet art hints that he may have some human lineage, allowing for hilarity to ensure when he finds out he's related to the race of people he hates so dearly. I personally think it just means that some females are less monstrous-looking, or maybe they wear some footwear.

Probably not as much as those who went to 433. :smallcool:

Ahh, that's what you ment with normal. I thought you ment normal-to-gobbos. Then I understand your point more clearly. (I really should go to bed. You know that it's time for that when your computer suddenly starts singing to you.)

[Azukar]

Re: the hobgoblin woman's feet, I always thought that seeing a single line indicated that the person was wearing light footwear; normal shoes or somesuch.

Or that they're a human and barefoot, of course.

[RickDaily12]

This comic, though funny, has answered a very important question of mine:

Mainly, that when Redcloak mentioned an "elven attack", he was referring to Vaarsuvius, not the OTHER elven strike squad that joined with the Resistance.

Hmm... wonder what this means next...

[Zeful]

***Yawn***

Okay, I'm not going to ignore this.

If you have an opinion, for good or ill, state it, don't whine without context (and yes, just posting "Yawn" is whining).

If you're whining because you are upset about the pace of the story I've got two things to say: "Could you have done any better?" and "Suck it up." A story that is nothing but pulse pounding exposition and fights loses steam so quickly that it barely qualifies as prose. There have to be lulls and "boring bits" so that the rest of the story has context and can build properly, right now we are nowhere near a climax so things are at a much slower pace, this is something called a "rising phase/action" in which the villains motivations are explained, and the future conflict is given context. Without that setup there's no conflict, no climax, and most importantly, no story.

If you're whining because of something else, then speak up, I have not yet mastered the wonderful art of internet telepathy, which would allow me to instantly understand your point of view from a single post containing one word.

Again, if you have an opinion, state it. I've had well beyond enough with the lack of elaboration some people criticize with.

[Mant]

Okay, I'm not going to ignore this.

If you have an opinion, for good or ill, state it, don't whine without context (and yes, just posting "Yawn" is whining).

If you're whining because you are upset about the pace of the story I've got two things to say: "Could you have done any better?" and "Suck it up." A story that is nothing but pulse pounding exposition and fights loses steam so quickly that it barely qualifies as prose. There have to be lulls and "boring bits" so that the rest of the story has context and can build properly, right now we are nowhere near a climax so things are at a much slower pace, this is something called a "rising phase/action" in which the villains motivations are explained, and the future conflict is given context. Without that setup there's no conflict, no climax, and most importantly, no story.

If you're whining because of something else, then speak up, I have not yet mastered the wonderful art of internet telepathy, which would allow me to instantly understand your point of view from a single post containing one word.

Again, if you have an opinion, state it. I've had well beyond enough with the lack of elaboration some people criticize with.

I found the strip predictable and uninteresting.
A "yawn" is pretty self explanatory of such feelings.

(your drama attempt was funny though)

See ya

[Woodsman]

My only problem is he's not same as the old boss.

[KataraAltinaII]

250 pesos says at least 90% of readers went to comic #433 today.

oh,and there's another female goblinoid in Strip 93 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html)

[Agi Hammerthief]

My only problem is he's not same as the old boss.
plenty time for character development yet

[Optimystik]

Okay, I'm not going to ignore this.

YHBT

10 char

[Zeful]

YHBT

10 char

Are you trying to provoke me? Because that's what it looks like.
I do not understand the acronym.

[Agi Hammerthief]

I found the strip predictable and uninteresting.
A "yawn" is pretty self explanatory of such feelings.

since the strip was so predictble... can we expect a link to your posts in

OOTS #702 - The Discussion Thread
or
OOTS #701 - The Discussion Thread
or
OOTS #700 - The Discussion Thread

where you predict the plot? :smallbiggrin:

[PallElendro]

Maybe the barbecue is hydra heads?

The goblin with the idea was old at the comic time.

...And that's how I made my first million gold pieces.

Notice the wrinkles and white beard.

[Gift Jeraff]

I assumed Goblin Dan was telling the story about how he made his first million gold pieces, which could have been anytime between that strip and whenever he actually gives that interview or whatever.

[samwich 1]

Why is he cleric #2? That suggests that he is second best which would be good.

[Gift Jeraff]

Because Hobgoblin Cleric #1 is the guy right next to him, presumably. Nothing to do with rank.

[red wombat]

I wonder if the goblins will be damned for the alternate-side of the street parking or the oboes. Can't be the guacamole.

[Tancred]

He does. Maybe a little upset at the ease with which Jirix is taking his place, and winning over the population? Being that Redcloak is already on tenuous footing with Xykon, and other losses of power or influence might have him on edge. He's learning how much Xykon considers him disposable, and now he's realizing that his position as beloved leader of Gobbotopia might not be as secure as he thought it was.

Or maybe he just isn't wild about the idea of a comedian in chief.

Jirix might be grateful, but that had nothing to do with generosity on Redcloak's part. He was ordered to do it just one panel after Xykon ordered him to not regenerate the missing eyeball:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html

I don't know about anyone else, but I think that sort of thing would bring back bad memories for me.

[Agi Hammerthief]

Er, did you stop reading my post at "seen"? :smallconfused: I said female goblinoid with "normal" feet. All 3 of those had typical gobbo feet. Some have speculated that Redcloak's mum having the standard humanoid feet art hints that he may have some human lineage, allowing for hilarity to ensure when he finds out he's related to the race of people he hates so dearly. I personally think it just means that some females are less monstrous-looking, or maybe they wear some footwear.

Probably not as much as those who went to 433. :smallcool:
the kid she's holding also has "normal feet"

[Draconi Redfir]

the kid she's holding also has "normal feet"

its a not-so-well known fact that baby goblinoids do not develop toes untill they reach the goblinoid equivilent of being a teenager. *nods*

[factotum]

Taking into account all three articles, particularly the last one ("Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures."), one might surmise that Raise Dead is powerless against any creature that has been turned into an undead, while Resurrection would work on any creature that was once undead but is currently destroyed.

My bad...I have to say I never noticed that Raise Dead apparently doesn't work against undead regardless of whether they've been destroyed or not. I assumed when you said there was a difference in your original post that you were saying Resurrection can be used on an undead creature without having to destroy it first, which is why I posted what I did.

[Selene]

Are you trying to provoke me? Because that's what it looks like.
I do not understand the acronym.

You Have Been Trolled.

(i.e. You fell victim to the *yawn* guy's troll post.)

[hamishspence]

If you believe that the best way to solve the presence of evil humanoids in a dungeon setting (i.e. far away from other sources of law or authority other than your own resources.) is violence, you're an adventurer. This may be objectionable to some

Including, going by DStP, The Giant.


I am often amazed by the number of people who resort to killing as the first solution to any problem in-game. It made me wonder what people who don't play the game would think about the actions of most adventurers. Celia became the voice of that outside world- those whose hobbies don't involve pretending to murder intelligent reptilian beasts in their own homes.

[Optimystik]

Are you trying to provoke me? Because that's what it looks like.
I do not understand the acronym.

Google is your friend.

(I was going to link a lmgtfy, but you've been through enough.)

[Watcher]

Google is your friend.

So you would think. :smalleek: Google has a sinister plan forming deep within their volcano fortress.

Huh. I kinda like the sound of the oboe when it's played right. :smallconfused: Whatever. :smallsmile:

[Draxonicar]

The roach in the first panel is priceless "They're place among the damned is secure" After hearing what goblins invented :smallcool:

[Sijo]

...Wow.

Not even a giggle from me this time. That hadn't happened with an OOTS strip in a while.

I guess I just don't care about the Goblins. Oh well, at least it looks like we will be getting back to the story next time.

Please? :smallfrown:

[Mant]

You Have Been Trolled.

(i.e. You fell victim to the *yawn* guy's troll post.)

Actually, my post is in no way different than the "wow awesome strip, rich!" that usually get posted. It just dwells into the negative corner of the metre.

So, unless you consider negative feedbacks as "trolling", it is not.

[Kish]

If Rich is not fond of that position, then he should have done a better job of clearly conveying it to the readers.
He could write between every two panels of the comic, "It's not morally correct to kill sapient creatures because they have green skin and fangs and you don't," and some readers would still argue that the comic shows a moral system where anything in the Monster Manual exists only to be killed and should be killed. I wouldn't even expect the proportion of readers who argue that to change much.

[ThePhantasm]

Okay, I'm not going to ignore this.

If you have an opinion, for good or ill, state it, don't whine without context (and yes, just posting "Yawn" is whining).

If you're whining because you are upset about the pace of the story I've got two things to say: "Could you have done any better?" and "Suck it up." A story that is nothing but pulse pounding exposition and fights loses steam so quickly that it barely qualifies as prose. There have to be lulls and "boring bits" so that the rest of the story has context and can build properly, right now we are nowhere near a climax so things are at a much slower pace, this is something called a "rising phase/action" in which the villains motivations are explained, and the future conflict is given context. Without that setup there's no conflict, no climax, and most importantly, no story.

If you're whining because of something else, then speak up, I have not yet mastered the wonderful art of internet telepathy, which would allow me to instantly understand your point of view from a single post containing one word.

Again, if you have an opinion, state it. I've had well beyond enough with the lack of elaboration some people criticize with.

Funny. Let's complain about complainers.

That'll show 'em.


I guess at least you followed your own advice, 'cause boy did you ever elaborate.

[Sliver]

He could write between every two panels of the comic, "It's not morally correct to kill sapient creatures because they have green skin and fangs and you don't," and some readers would still argue that the comic shows a moral system where anything in the Monster Manual exists only to be killed and should be killed. I wouldn't even expect the proportion of readers who argue that to change much.

That position would claim that only humans are the good race, because all other PHB races have an MM entry :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

He could write between every two panels of the comic, "It's not morally correct to kill sapient creatures because they have green skin and fangs and you don't," and some readers would still argue that the comic shows a moral system where anything in the Monster Manual exists only to be killed and should be killed. I wouldn't even expect the proportion of readers who argue that to change much.

And, even in Dungeon Crawling Fools, the only person who voices the notion that it is, is the CE Belkar, who gets glared at by the rest of the party when he does so.

[SaintRidley]

Next one's Jirix's speech. Wonder what he has to say to the public.

[Asta Kask]

Friends, Goblins, Countrymen - lend me your ears!

[Faldrath]

I don't understand why people think they haven't found the phylactery yet, or that Redcloak is hiding it from Xykon.

Xykon wouldn't let the goblins assemble for a speech if they hadn't found it, simple as that. They'd still be looking for it nonstop. It also seems pretty obvious that Xykon won't let Redcloak have his old holy symbol back, since he probably realized the strategic mistake of letting something that important with a weaker minion.

I think that Redcloak assembled the goblins while Xykon makes the final preparations to teleport out - Xykon wouldn't oppose it, since, after all, they're still his army.

[dps]

Your point would be accurate, except for the small fact that Miko did indeed fall. So clearly even a crazy fas... person like Miko can not horribly abuse her position and remain Lawful Good, or a Paladin.

Miko lost her Paladin status. It is not at all clear that her alignment changed.

I'd prefer not to have that debate again, but it's very much a matter of dispute, so you really shouldn't be stating it as a fact.

[factotum]

Xykon wouldn't let the goblins assemble for a speech if they hadn't found it, simple as that. They'd still be looking for it nonstop.

And yet he'd be perfectly happy hanging around in Azure City to let Redcloak get his goblin Utopia set up even if they HAD found his phylactery? Nope, that doesn't work either. You're also forgetting that they have twenty thousand hobgoblins (at least--they may have got more since the battle), and the phylactery fell into the sewers. Just how many hobgoblins do you think would actually fit down there? Even Xykon has to know that cramming every inhabitant of the city into the sewers to search for his phylactery is going to be counter-productive.

[salinan]

Actually, my post is in no way different than the "wow awesome strip, rich!" that usually get posted. It just dwells into the negative corner of the metre.

So, unless you consider negative feedbacks as "trolling", it is not.
That ignores the fact that the large majority of people reading this forum do so because they have a positive view of the webcomic. A pretty obvious point, I hope. The definition of a trolling post is one which provokes inflammatory response, which an unexplained negative post on such a board is a classic example of. Clearly, an unexplained positive post won't have the same reaction. Your post was a troll by definition. :smalltongue:

Posting a negative response with an explanation of why you have the negative response would likely provoke a debate, but it wouldn't be trolling.

[Mant]

If some people feel offended by negative feedbacks then the problem is not on my side. The explanation is clearly there.

[dps]

If some people feel offended by negative feedbacks then the problem is not on my side. The explanation is clearly there.

It's not a problem to you, because you got what you wanted--a response to your troll. If you were really bored by the strip, but cared about the comic, you would have attempted to explain why #703 bored you and wasn't up to the comic's normal standard. By just posting a "yawn" you're implying that you just don't care, in which case bothering to post at all is just trolling.

The alternative is that you are not capable of expressing your thoughts, which would be bigger problem for you IRL than on this forum.

[Mant]

Actually, my post is in no way different than the "wow awesome strip, rich!" that usually get posted.

(2)

Protip: just as they dont always explain why they loved it, i dont see why i should be obliged to always explain why i didnt.

[Sijo]

Next one's Jirix's speech. Wonder what he has to say to the public.

Oh, I hope not. What does he have to say of any importance? I'm tired of goblin politics. Let's go back to MitD's search for O-Chul. Or even back to the desert-lost heroes. Even they weren't this boring.

[salinan]

If some people feel offended by negative feedbacks then the problem is not on my side. The explanation is clearly there.
The thing is, it's not 'negative feedback', it's simply negativity. I.e. there is no feedback component, which would require that your post had something that Rich could have taken on board to improve his webcomic. (No, 'I hate it' or 'yawn' or anything similar doesn't provide enough information for Rich to determine the reason for the reaction, and thus be able to decide what would need to be changed.)

Additionally, blaming others for their reaction to your post would be like me saying 'your mother is a whore' and blaming you for the reaction of punching me.:smallwink:

I thought I had covered the way in which your post is different from a 'love it' type one in my previous post.

Anyway, this is all seriously off topic, and if you still can't see the problem with the way you posted, I doubt I'm going to make much headway in convincing you.

[Mant]

No, a feedback is a feedback: "I like it" "I didnt like it" "Wow!" "Yawn.".
They are all feedbacks, and they dont need a wall of text of explanations to be such. They can be simple.


Additionally, blaming others for their reaction to your post would be like me saying 'your mother is a whore' and blaming you for the reaction of punching me.:smallwink:

Only for immature people who consider a negative expression about something they like as a personal offense.

the problem is not on my side. (2)

[Hurkyl]

Only for immature people who consider a negative expression about something they like as a personal offense.
Who's offended? We're calling you out.

[delroland]

Meet the New Boss

:elan:: o/~ Same as the old boss... o/~

o/~ I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray...

We won't get fooled again! o/~

[Dancing_Fox]

Can't it simply be that redcloak had no better use for the spell slot?
Can't it simply be that Jirix just said "resurrection" simply because it makes sense in context and is easier to say than "raise dead"?

This.

Also, Redcloak and Jirix have just proven that they are not above a bit of exaggeration. Only moments ago, a lone elf was described as "elven insurgents."

So putting it out there that the more powerful Resurrection was used rather than Raise Dead is simply another piece of PR. "Look, our team has Resurrection on its side and is prepared to use it!" Nothing more than a small white lie.

Possibly, Jirix may not even know which one was used and made an honest mistake, or was lied to later as to which one was used. He was after all dead at the time, and I suppose the Raise Dead and the Resurrection could look pretty similiar to you from that vantage point.

[Mant]

Who's offended? We're calling you out.

Many people seem, with that "im not going to ignore this" attitude and whatnot.

[delroland]

My only problem is he's not same as the old boss.

Hi5, by the way. Glad someone else got it.

[MRizzle08]

No, a feedback is a feedback: "I like it" "I didnt like it" "Wow!" "Yawn.".
They are all feedbacks, and they dont need a wall of text of explanations to be such. They can be simple.

This is true, however, this is not a feedback thread. This is a discussion thread and as such the community would appreciate it if it's contributers discussed the strip in detail instead of of making short comments that lead to relatively no discussion.

I, for one, very much enjoyed this strip and found the naming joke at the end very funny as I always get a kick out of some of the names in movie credits.

[NakedCelt]

No, a feedback is a feedback: "I like it" "I didnt like it" "Wow!" "Yawn.".

Well, here's some feedback for you, Mant:

***ignores***

[ThePhantasm]

Mountains out of molehills, my friends. Mountains out of mollllleeeeeeeehhhhiiiiillllllsss.

[Puns de León]

Redcloak is truly a Che-like symbol now.

Love the topical title. The Who reference only a short while after they played the Super Bowl - on the ball, Giant!

[Barak]

Agree with whoever said they weren't interested in goblin politics. I'm just not terribly intrigued by Gobbotopia, and I have very little interest in Jirix. He seems like an utterly bland character to me.

The joke at the end had a funny idea, but I don't think it landed quite right. It took me a double-take to figure out that the reason the cleric didn't become prime minister is that his mom gave him a damning name. Perhaps I'm dense, but it took a split second too long to decipher what was going on, and that kind of drained the humor out of it. I think Rich could have done a better job with that joke.

I'm curious about the elven invaders and the resistance fighters, and the search for the phylactery - If we need to take a side trip back to Azure City, I'd much rather focus on those plot points.

Anyone else want the Goblins to paint the town red or something? If they really wanted to change it from Azure City, they'd change the color of the place. Maybe spread some blood around...

[Mant]

This is true, however, this is not a feedback thread. This is a discussion thread and as such the community would appreciate it if it's contributers discussed the strip in detail instead of of making short comments that lead to relatively no discussion.

Actually, my post is in no way different than the "wow awesome strip, rich!" that usually get posted. (3)

[delroland]

Actually, my post is in no way different than the "wow awesome strip, rich!" that usually get posted. (3)

Except those are positive, and yours is negative, and they usually don't repeat themselves three times while posting the fact that they have posted three times their third time.

Furthermore, "wow awesome strip" is less confrontational than "yawn that strip sucked". If you were serious about the discussion, a more appropriate post would have been, "Hey, I liked this and this about the strip, but the story seemed a little uninspired this week." Or use something along those lines, rather than casually dismissing everyone else's opinions with a monosyllabic critique.

[Mant]

Except those are positive, and yours is negative, and they usually don't repeat themselves three times while posting the fact that they have posted three times their third time.
I would gladly stop repeating myself if people would as well stop bringing up arguments i've already responded to and/or already pointed out its faults.


Furthermore, "wow awesome strip" is less confrontational than "yawn that strip sucked".
Which i didn't write.
Exaggerating something to make it look bad is sign of low intellectual honesty.


If you were serious about the discussion, a more appropriate post would have been, "Hey, I liked this and this about the strip, but the story seemed a little uninspired this week." Or use something along those lines, rather than casually dismissing everyone else's opinions with a monosyllabic critique.
I didn't dismiss any opinion, but expressed my feedback about the latest strip.

[ThePhantasm]

Guys, if someone says "I didn't like the strip" and doesn't want to give any reason other than "I just didn't", then just move on with your lives. It doesn't deserve three pages of discussion.

/end feedback discussion

[Mant]

I agree, it's incredible how a single "yawn" can tick some people off like that. Talk about overreacting.

[Hurkyl]

Exaggerating something to make it look bad is sign of low intellectual honesty.
(1) It doesn't need exaggeration.
(2) While you didn't explicitly write it, you certainly implied it.

Trying to weasel out of criticism is a sign of low intellectual honesty. :smallamused:

[Mant]

Adding things i didnt write is an act of exaggeration.
It's a common trick to make something look worse than it is, usually because on its own it wasn't as easy to criticize, or when lacking honesty.

As for the rest, in a forum it's what is written that matters, not what you "deduct" may have been implied.
Leave that aside and look at the posts only, 'cause i can't control what people imagine on their own.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here. I'm not going back through to scrub all the offending posts, but expects some warnings and infraction to ensue. Now, please, find a different topic.

[rewinn]

:redcloak:"I give you the man who I have personally groomed for this eventuality - your new head of state, Prime Minister Jirix"

In proper English, Redcloak should have used "whom" instead of "who", but I can't really fault him on this since he's speaking to a pack of greennecks.

[Garwain]

Sorry, I just don't buy red's story.

Why would he appoint someone he is hardly acquainted to in the position he aspired for himself? There is no secure line to recover his leadership from Jirix when he returns, aside from violence maybe, which is a risk.

For reddy to hand over power, there must be something much better ahead. I don't know what Xykon promised, but it's apparently bigger than a proper hobonation.

[Larocs Macalar]

about the moving of left-eye: i think that he is going to find the phylactery alone, like a solo mission, maybe a strategy to make xykon happy and reward him with his eye back. Or they both are going to look after it. But i dont imagine that they are moving without finding the phylactery.
about the order: i dont get it --> they are going to split up? and that srcy-eye was from who? roy´s father from sky?:smallconfused:.
id be happy if someone could answer...

[hamishspence]

Sorry, I just don't buy red's story.

Why would he appoint someone he is hardly acquainted to in the position he aspired for himself? There is no secure line to recover his leadership from Jirix when he returns, aside from violence maybe, which is a risk.

For reddy to hand over power, there must be something much better ahead. I don't know what Xykon promised, but it's apparently bigger than a proper hobonation.

Redcloak's had the position, for a while.

While DStP suggests that Gobbotopia is Redcloak's goal "over and above the whole Snarl plan" I suspect that Redcloak is going for both.

Build Gobbotopia to the point when it should be able to survive without his assistance, then leave and carry on The Plan- that way, if he is thwarted in such a way as to result in no release of The Snarl, Gobbotopia is still there.

[Math_Mage]

Sorry, I just don't buy red's story.

Why would he appoint someone he is hardly acquainted to in the position he aspired for himself? There is no secure line to recover his leadership from Jirix when he returns, aside from violence maybe, which is a risk.

For reddy to hand over power, there must be something much better ahead. I don't know what Xykon promised, but it's apparently bigger than a proper hobonation.

Quite the opposite. It is in Redcloak's interest to cut all ties with Gobbotopia as thoroughly as possible for now, because the biggest threat to its existence is Xykon, and as long as he's around, Xykon is. However, note that he has maintained his position as 'Supreme Leader', left open the possibility that he will return in the distant future, and appointed Jirix as Prime Minister 'until that time.' Redcloak plans to detach himself from Xykon, either by completing their plan or by ending the lich, and only then will he be free to live in the nation he helped build.

[factotum]

Why would he appoint someone he is hardly acquainted to in the position he aspired for himself? There is no secure line to recover his leadership from Jirix when he returns, aside from violence maybe, which is a risk.


What makes you think Redcloak and Jirix are "hardly acquainted"? Jirix appears to have been Redcloak's second-in-command for at least the time they've been in Azure City, which is getting on for a year now--plenty of time to decide if you trust someone, methinks. Besides, Redcloak is now and will always be the Supreme Leader--given how regimented hobgoblin society appears to be, a single word will get him his power back. Or, if all else fails, two words (Slay Living) should do the job nicely--that's how he got the leadership in the first place, after all!

[TheBlackShadow]

What I can't understand is why people keep showing up asking "Who's this Jirix guy?" when he has been around ever since Redcloak's coup of the Hobgoblin leadership, before the Battle of Azure City *(come to think of it, I'm not sure if Rich stated somewhere that he was present in DCF as well, as an unnamed Cleric). Sure, he was only actually named around the time of the battle itself, and he's only been a relatively minor character, but he's been around long enough and is prominent enough for everyone to know who he is.

[hamishspence]

Jirix hasn't been arount that long- his first confirmed appearance, according to DsTP, is when Redcloak and a cleric enter the throne room. That cleric is Jirix:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

And I don't think he was actually named until the shark tank scene with O-chul.

[Turkish Delight]

Jirix hasn't been arount that long- his first confirmed appearance, according to DsTP, is when Redcloak and a cleric enter the throne room. That cleric is Jirix:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

And I don't think he was actually named until the shark tank scene with O-chul.

...

The cleric who got his head kicked off by Miko?

If so, Team Evil seems to have an unusual amount of interest in raising this Hobgoblin cleric from the dead.

[Barak]

Other people have said that the cleric in 461 is Jirix, but I don't see any evidence of this at all. All the hobgoblin clerics look the same. I don't think that's him there, I think that's hobgoblin cleric #2.

Where is the first place he's actually named?

[hamishspence]

He's named here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

However, in Don't Split The Party, The Giant, in the commentaries, states that the Jirix is that hobgoblin, brought back to life and promoted.

[Turkish Delight]

Other people have said that the cleric in 461 is Jirix, but I don't see any evidence of this at all. All the hobgoblin clerics look the same. I don't think that's him there, I think that's hobgoblin cleric #2.

Where is the first place he's actually named?

Why assume that the Hobgoblin cleric who got his head kicked clear off his shoulders, and whose headless corpse was within a very near blast radius of a castle exploding, is anyone who is currently alive at all?

If Jirix, then that's two diamonds Team Evil has burned through for this putz, not to mention a hunt to find his mangled remains after the big castle went kaboom. If hobgoblin cleric #2, then the idea of searching for his corpse and using a Raise Dead on him seems even more pointless. A billion more expendable clerics where he came from.

If the Giant says he's Jirix, then I'm not one to argue with Word of God. Nevertheless, it's pretty weird if that's him rather than just another nameless casualty of the Siege of Azure City.

Besides, in the context of that comic he'd just be hobgoblin cleric.

[Capt Spanner]

I can think of two motives for Redcloak to pass on leadership of the city.

1. Some unpopular decisions have to be made. This is the nature of leadership. By installing Jirax as a puppet leader, Jirax takes the fall for Redcloak's decisions (and, by the looks of it, would probably credit Redcloak with the good ideas...)

2. Redcloak anticipates having to leave Azure City very soon or at short notice. This one has been discussed already here.

[Teleporker]

It's a good thing that MiTD did not think too hard when trying to remember Jirix. I can imagine him accidentally "teleporking" the metal bar back in Jirix's chest and saying :mitd: Aahhh now that makes more sense!

[salinan]

Why assume that the Hobgoblin cleric who got his head kicked clear off his shoulders, and whose headless corpse was within a very near blast radius of a castle exploding, is anyone who is currently alive at all?

If Jirix, then that's two diamonds Team Evil has burned through for this putz, not to mention a hunt to find his mangled remains after the big castle went kaboom. If hobgoblin cleric #2, then the idea of searching for his corpse and using a Raise Dead on him seems even more pointless. A billion more expendable clerics where he came from.
As hamishspence said, Rich's commentary in DStP identifies that guy as Jirix:


I decided to create a named hobgoblin leader to answer to Redcloak. Jirix was thus born, and will hopefully serve as the face of the hobgoblin horde in the future. In my mind, he's the same cleric who fought with Redcloak against the ghost-martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, simply raised from the dead afterwards and awarded a position of authority.

[jimmy81]

Why do I have a feeling that once Xykon and Redcloak leave that all hell will break loose in the new city?

(Also, this is my first post ever! I just started reading oots from comic #001 two weeks ago and have been hooked ever since :)

[Robz_defheadz]

I, for one, cannot wait to see this new goblin nation toppled by the elves.

[Teleporker]

Why do I have a feeling that once Xykon and Redcloak leave that all hell will break loose in the new city?

(Also, this is my first post ever! I just started reading oots from comic #001 two weeks ago and have been hooked ever since :)

I feel the same way actually. Whether Jirix is a competent leader remains to be seen, however we already have at least "cleric #2" showing jealousy, and two anonymous hobbos lamenting Redcloak's departure.

I admit those are at best one-inch hairline cracks on a huge solid concrete dam. But if the infiltrated teams make any use of that, and facilitate a conflict of authority...

[Math_Mage]

I, for one, cannot wait to see this new goblin nation toppled by the elves.

I, for one, welcome our new goblinoid overlords!

:smalltongue:

[Zea mays]

The evidence continues to accrue: in the OoTS world, hair-buns are a natural side-effect of motherhood.
Interesting.

[Xentropy]

The evidence continues to accrue: in the OoTS world, hair-buns are a natural side-effect of motherhood.
Interesting.

Well, I suppose it's hard to do stretch marks on a stick figure. ;)

[Turkish Delight]

As hamishspence said, Rich's commentary in DStP identifies that guy as Jirix:

Check the next sentence you left unquoted:


If the Giant says he's Jirix, then I'm not one to argue with Word of God. Nevertheless, it's pretty weird if that's him rather than just another nameless casualty of the Siege of Azure City.

I'm not calling into question that it's Jirix, since the Giant says it's Jirix. I'm calling into question Team Evil's decision to keep raising from the dead this guy who is so prone to getting slaughtered, especially the first time when he was not only dead, but his corpse probably mangled and ripped to shreds by the blast, as well as probably thrown half-way across Azure City and necessitating a scavenger hunt for his pieces. It ain't like Team Evil to show such concern for the welfare of a single cleric.

[Shale]

My guess would be that, in a fit of remorse and kinship with the hobgoblins, Redcloak raised every one of his companions that he could find.

[Turkish Delight]

My guess would be that, in a fit of remorse and kinship with the hobgoblins, Redcloak raised every one of his companions that he could find.

That's a whole lotta diamonds. Well, depending on how we're defining 'companions.' Obviously, if we were talking 'all of his hobgoblin minions', things would get prohibitively expensive. If we're talking the various nameless hobgoblins who have served as the Watson for Redcloak over the while, then the list narrows dramatically...in fact, if the hobgoblin who gets his head kicked off is Jirix as DStP says, then apparently leaving only him and the General guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), who is either still dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html)(most likely) or has been completely off-screen forever.

In other words, its possible, but I doubt it. Redcloak may have suffered an attack of conscience in regards to his indifference towards Hobgoblin lives, but not enough to justify going around blowing diamonds on every two-bit Hobgoblin minion who has ever said two words to him. Casualties happen in war, and the only reason to undo them when the cost is so high is if one of the casualties has something more to offer.

[Temotei]

That's a whole lotta diamonds. Well, depending on how we're defining 'companions.' Obviously, if we were talking 'all of his hobgoblin minions', things would get prohibitively expensive. If we're talking the various nameless hobgoblins who have served as the Watson for Redcloak over the while, then the list narrows dramatically...in fact, if the hobgoblin who gets his head kicked off is Jirix as DStP says, then apparently leaving only him and the General guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), who is either still dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html)(most likely) or has been completely off-screen forever.

In other words, its possible, but I doubt it. Redcloak may have suffered an attack of conscience in regards to his indifference towards Hobgoblin lives, but not enough to justify going around blowing diamonds on every two-bit Hobgoblin minion who has ever said two words to him. Casualties happen in war, and the only reason to undo them when the cost is so high is if one of the casualties has something more to offer.

Agreed. He is evil, after all. :smallcool:

[Shale]

And yet we know for a fact that he did raise Jirix, so either he had some particular reason to raise him and nobody else - and if he did, it certainly wasn't established on camera - or he didn't just raise Jirix.

[Turkish Delight]

And yet we know for a fact that he did raise Jirix, so either he had some particular reason to raise him and nobody else - and if he did, it certainly wasn't established on camera - or he didn't just raise Jirix.

Precisely the question. There really aren't any blatantly obvious reasons to keep saving this guy after he's already been brutally killed twice over. When he was killed the first time, presumably raising him was Redcloak's call, since it's doubtful Xykon would have given a crap at that point. Just another dead hobgoblin amongst the piles and piles of dead hobgoblins left in the wake of their plans.

The second time was Xykon's call (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), in a rare act seemingly motivated by gratitude for the warning, and it's interesting to note that Redcloak reacts almost like the idea of raising him didn't even occur to him. Sort of, "Huh? But he's already dead" kind of reaction.

In other words, there seems to be no clear and easy answer as to why Jirix isn't pushing up the daisies right now. Perhaps it's best to just imagine that Redcloak and Jirix got along so well, and got to know each other well before the siege of Azure City, that Redcloak has been grooming him to eventually take over management for a long, long time now, enough to make it worth bringing him back even so far back as the siege.

I wonder if Jirix is destined to take on a Kenny-like role, getting brutally slaughtered in every battle in ever more gratuitously extreme and painful ways only for Redcloak to reluctantly keep raising him for lack of a better replacement? Probably not, but I'm going to be watching for Jirix to die horribly again.

[factotum]

I'm calling into question Team Evil's decision to keep raising from the dead this guy who is so prone to getting slaughtered, especially the first time when he was not only dead, but his corpse probably mangled and ripped to shreds by the blast, as well as probably thrown half-way across Azure City and necessitating a scavenger hunt for his pieces.

Resurrection doesn't need more than one piece of the body, and as already pointed out several times, Miko was standing right at the epicentre of the blast and only ended up in two pieces--why would a cleric some distance away get blown into tiny chunks? Also, what makes you think it was Team Evil's decision? Redcloak might have made the choice himself, on the grounds that Jirix did quite well in the battle up until the point his head parted company with his shoulders.

[Turkish Delight]

Resurrection doesn't need more than one piece of the body, and as already pointed out several times, Miko was standing right at the epicentre of the blast and only ended up in two pieces--why would a cleric some distance away get blown into tiny chunks?

Let's be honest here: Miko's remarkably intact...and still conscious!...body was a product of Plot Armor/Rule of Drama. That's saying nothing at all of O'Chul! The explosion blew up a castle. There were enormous chunks of rock taken to pieces by it and thrown across the city. Miko and O'Chul were at the epicenter of a blast that nearly leveled a fortress. Without the story need to keep them relatively intact, Miko for her dramatic exit with Soon and O'Chul for his role in the future plot, it would be chunky salsa time even in D&D.

That's a long way of saying that it's less that Miko's amazingly intact body shows that Jirix's corpse surviving to some extent intact isn't so crazy and more that Jirix's corpse existing in anything more than little chunks of unidentifiable orange goo just adds to an already crazy situation. But yes, I suppose we can accept it under the circumstances.


Also, what makes you think it was Team Evil's decision? Redcloak might have made the choice himself, on the grounds that Jirix did quite well in the battle up until the point his head parted company with his shoulders.

The first time it was probably Redcloak's decision. The second time was clearly Xykon's decision.

[Gift Jeraff]

I wonder if Jirix is destined to take on a Kenny-like role, getting brutally slaughtered in every battle in ever more gratuitously extreme and painful ways only for Redcloak to reluctantly keep raising him for lack of a better replacement? Probably not, but I'm going to be watching for Jirix to die horribly again.
I'm guessing it's going to be a regular thing for him to be killed by paladins (fallen or otherwise). He could be killed by Hinjo or Thanh in some battle for Gobbotopia/Azure City, and maybe by Lien if he appears in the battle for Kraagor's Gate.