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View Full Version : Templates which increase in power with level



Eldan
2010-02-12, 06:20 AM
There are, as you all know, I guess, templates which give you better effects when you are of a higher levels. The only examples I can think of right now are Half-celestial, -fey and -fiend, which give you better spells at higher levels.
Now, what I asked myself was the following: should more templates do that?
Many templates (and races, especially) have abilities which, while flavourful, are next to useless at higher levels. A 2nd level spell 3/day is No-no at level one (that's why we have LA), powerful at level 3, nice to have at level 5 and really useless, from a power standpoint, at level 20. At that point, you will ask yourself why you ever took that LA which does nothing now except give you +2 to one stat.

So, what about if, as an example, Half-dragon gave you Blindsight at one level, then maybe a few spell-likes at another, basically other things high-level dragons get, things which you can use at high levels, when your breath weapon isn't all that great anymore?
It would help with the old "OMG! LA SUX!" issue I've seen brought up a few times around here.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-12, 06:35 AM
There are, as you all know, I guess, templates which give you better effects when you are of a higher levels. The only examples I can think of right now are Half-celestial, -fey and -fiend, which give you better spells at higher levels.
Now, what I asked myself was the following: should more templates do that?
Many templates (and races, especially) have abilities which, while flavourful, are next to useless at higher levels. A 2nd level spell 3/day is No-no at level one (that's why we have LA), powerful at level 3, nice to have at level 5 and really useless, from a power standpoint, at level 20. At that point, you will ask yourself why you ever took that LA which does nothing now except give you +2 to one stat.

So, what about if, as an example, Half-dragon gave you Blindsight at one level, then maybe a few spell-likes at another, basically other things high-level dragons get, things which you can use at high levels, when your breath weapon isn't all that great anymore?
It would help with the old "OMG! LA SUX!" issue I've seen brought up a few times around here.

Actually, LA Buyoff is designed to address just that issue, by removing the LA at certain stages.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 06:43 AM
Actually, LA Buyoff is designed to address just that issue, by removing the LA at certain stages.

This. If you use LA buyoff, you're not worst than the caster who burns experience to craft items now and then. Thanks to the whole "experience is like a river" thingy, you can quickly recover the LA and have the same HD as the rest of the party.

Heck, I've even seen players who claimed they could get free low templates if the game was starting at mid-high levels, because that by then they should've been able to pay it off and recover.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-12, 06:48 AM
One of the faerun books has one. Shadow walker I think.

Dimers
2010-02-12, 09:37 AM
There's a template jam-packed with psionic powers that accumulate with HD, called phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm).

One situation that would be easy to houserule is advanced-animal-HD lycanthropy. If you give most animals extra HD, they increase in size, which alters their stats, so a lycanthrope based on the advanced HD turns into a Bigger Nastier wolf/bear/etc. If your character starts with a standard "base" animal for her lycanthropy, I imagine most DMs would allow adding animal RHD instead of class levels in order to get the advanced version. That costs hit dice, of course, but no more LA.

I agree that it'd be awfully nice to see more LA races and templates that are designed to retain value as you progress.

Samb
2010-02-12, 10:34 AM
This. If you use LA buyoff, you're not worst than the caster who burns experience to craft items now and then. Thanks to the whole "experience is like a river" thingy, you can quickly recover the LA and have the same HD as the rest of the party.

Heck, I've even seen players who claimed they could get free low templates if the game was starting at mid-high levels, because that by then they should've been able to pay it off and recover.

The thing about LA buyback is that it is only good if the campaign is going to be going for a while, something that you really can't predict.

If it is only going to be a one shot, then getting your feat at 3rd and 6th level (or even 9th) is much better than coughing up to 3,000-9,000 XP.

Oh and saint also improves with ECL, and it freaking rocks. Doesn't really have a LA per say but subsitution levels instead.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-12, 10:42 AM
The thing about LA buyback is that it is only good if the campaign is going to be going for a while, something that you really can't predict.

If it is only going to be a one shot, then getting your feat at 3rd and 6th level (or even 9th) is much better than coughing up to 3,000-9,000 XP.

Oh and saint also improves with ECL, and it freaking rocks. Doesn't really have a LA per say but subsitution levels instead.

If it's a one shot, then the question would have likely been addressed as LA templates that are effective at high level...

In which case? Not many. It's exceedingly difficult to outweigh the benefits of a class level. Remember: If you have a +1 LA at level 20, you're not losing level 1 of wizard. You're losing Level 20. In essence, you give up your highest level of the class, for a few low level benefits.

The question is: Is this LA worth the higher level benefits I'd otherwise get?

Usually, the answer is no.
For wizards? It's an extra +1 CL, an extra level 8 and level 9 spell, and an extra stat boost.

A +2 LA? You give up +2 CL, 1 level 7 and level 8 spell, 2 level 9 spells, and a stat boost.

There's not much worth that. That's essentially raising the average spell level you can throw per round in combat by 1, all day.

Boci
2010-02-12, 10:43 AM
Feral template comes to mind. Fixed LA but CR that scales with HD? Why?

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 10:44 AM
The thing about LA buyback is that it is only good if the campaign is going to be going for a while, something that you really can't predict.

If it is only going to be a one shot, then getting your feat at 3rd and 6th level (or even 9th) is much better than coughing up to 3,000-9,000 XP.


To be honest, if the campaign is going to be a one shot, then normal optimization rules don't apply. You can happily burn yourself for power now because there won't be a next level. There's a big diference between long and short term optimization.