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View Full Version : Finding & killing a lvl 20 wiz (3.5, core)



Adamaro
2010-02-12, 08:56 AM
I have an idea about a guild of wizards. This guild has a sort of a "obligatory membership" for all powerful (above lvl 14) wizards and I would like some guidelines on how would guild members find a rouge wizard, not participating in their nice little community. The point is that in the past some wizards concocted some explosive plans which plunged the land into disarray, so the guild was formed as a body where wizards can do what they like without (seriously) endangering the land or trying to harm other wizards.

Ergo: A powerful wizard goes rouge. How can he be found and dealt with?

Important note: Core books only.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 08:58 AM
At that level, Legend Lore and Vision can be used to track him even if he has a constant Mind Blank up. Psionics can also do a fair bit with Hypercognition and Metafaculty.

EDIT: Psionics aren't exactly core of course, but those two powers are in the SRD.

EDIT 2: Contact Other Plane can also help - simply ask an epic outsider who can pierce his detection-blocking.

Zom B
2010-02-12, 09:02 AM
how would guild members find a rouge wizard

Follow the trail of mascara.

But no, seriously, even with magical means, there's things the wizard will have never thought of. Maybe he made himself immune to scrying, but did he find some way of making sure good Gather Information checks to track his whereabouts can't find him? If he's active enough to go get spell components or just be seen in a city, he can be found. And if he hasn't been causing any splashes anywhere, then it's very difficult for him to do whatever it is he is doing under the radar. Once he's tracked, a good ambush consisting of Forcecage, Dimensional Lock, and Silence should trap him.

Adamaro
2010-02-12, 09:15 AM
If a wiz uses Mage’s Magnificent Mansion and decides to plan his evil plans there and has constant Mind blank, can he be tracked down? IMO he does not need to travel in search of food or other mundane things to material plane?

Also, which outsiders from MM1 can could pierce detection blocking?

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 09:23 AM
Also, which outsiders from MM1 can could pierce detection blocking?

Deities, natch.

And I already pointed out four ways around Mind Blank in my first post.

BobVosh
2010-02-12, 09:33 AM
If the guild has just 1 epic caster it is easy to do large epic spells with a guild of wizards backing you up.

An epic scry and a very epic version of antimagic field that blocks all but your spells. 1 mile radius. It is the kind of cheese that breaks your game as a player, but allows you to do fun things as a DM if you use it as flavor. Then never, ever do it.
I thought you said stuff on D20srd only. My bad.

Zom B
2010-02-12, 09:52 AM
Although the Epic Level Handbook is not a Core book, most DMs are fine with it, as it is more a supplement to continue where the PHB left off. Of course, it's understandable for DMs to feel that once players get to epic levels, things just get out of hand too quickly.

BobVosh
2010-02-12, 09:55 AM
I have always felt it works a lot better as a DM only tool. Also the rules for BAB and saves is just weird.

Runestar
2010-02-12, 09:56 AM
I am pretty sure you can just wish your party to him. The PHB even lists a similar scenario (where wishing for a staff of power teleports you to a wizard possessing one).

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 09:56 AM
I am pretty sure you can just wish your party to him. The PHB even lists a similar scenario (where wishing for a staff of power teleports you to a wizard possessing one).

Wish can't find someone covered by Mind Blank.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 10:00 AM
Wish can't find someone covered by Mind Blank.

So legend lore and vision can find him easily, but 9th level wish with the 5k exp cost doesn't?

Adamaro
2010-02-12, 10:02 AM
Forget legend lore. Core only. So Vision might be the best tracking tool ...

Runestar
2010-02-12, 10:02 AM
Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it.

Ah, but I am not attempting to gain information about the target, I am requesting to be brought straight to him. :smalltongue:

Zom B
2010-02-12, 10:03 AM
Wish can't find someone covered by Mind Blank.

Hmm, but the poster does raise a good point, even if inadvertently. If you knew of a specific item the wizard owned, you could Wish to be teleported to it.


Forget legend lore. Core only. So Vision might be the best tracking tool ...

Legend Lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) is not core?

Adamaro
2010-02-12, 10:06 AM
Ah, my bad. It is. But Legend lore requires above lvl 20 characters, or am i wrong? Lvl cap is 20.

Edit: I need new glassess :-D

Lysander
2010-02-12, 10:14 AM
Simple. Use Wish.

Before anyone protests that Mind Blank foils Wish read this:


Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it.

So as long as you're not trying to scry on the subject or read their mind, Mind Blank does not interfere with Wish. Then use this use of Wish to summon the rogue mage to face judgment:


Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 10:18 AM
Hire a psion (seer) and have them manifest Metafaculty. Failing that, research it as a spell.

Metafaculty pierces through the petty mind blank.

Scry on an object they possess instead of them. Their staff ain't mind blank'd.

Divine casters could get help from their deities while using contact other plane and commune spells.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 10:21 AM
So legend lore and vision can find him easily, but 9th level wish with the 5k exp cost doesn't?

It's not easy at all. Legend Lore takes two weeks.

Vision shows him to you, provided he did something significant, and doesn't give you any other information. So you'd better hope he's outside a Denny's or the Space Needle or something you can triangulate from.


Forget legend lore. Core only.

Legend Lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) is core.


Ah, but I am not attempting to gain information about the target, I am requesting to be brought straight to him. :smalltongue:


So as long as you're not trying to scry on the subject or read their mind, Mind Blank does not interfere with Wish.

Yes, but where?

Wish can absolutely take you to him... once you find him. It says you can Wish to be transported to a place, not a person.

Narazil
2010-02-12, 10:22 AM
So as long as you're not trying to scry on the subject or read their mind, Mind Blank does not interfere with Wish. Then use this use of Wish to summon the rogue mage to face judgment:

This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it.
I'd say Wish was a Divination spell, with the purpose of "information gathering", if used for such a purpose.
It's a bit unfair to bring up though, as its based on DM's decision.

Runestar
2010-02-12, 10:42 AM
It's not easy at all. Legend Lore takes two weeks.

Duplicating it via limited wish shortens its casting time to a standard action. :smallsmile:


Yes, but where?

Wish can absolutely take you to him... once you find him. It says you can Wish to be transported to a place, not a person.

Fine then. "I wish to be brought to the very room where XXX wizard is". :smallwink:

Lysander
2010-02-12, 10:42 AM
Yes, but where?

Wish can absolutely take you to him... once you find him. It says you can Wish to be transported to a place, not a person.

Actually it says that it can move anyone, anywhere, to anywhere. You're not going to him, he's coming to you. You could also send him to a particularly nasty spot on the lower planes if you wanted.



I'd say Wish was a Divination spell, with the purpose of "information gathering", if used for such a purpose.
It's a bit unfair to bring up though, as its based on DM's decision.

If you're using it to bring him to you its a conjuration (calling) spell rather than a divination spell.

Using wish to call him isn't perfect however. The rogue mage still gets a will save to resist, and the caster spends 5,000xp whether it succeeds or not. But it's the kind of thing a powerful council of mages would do as a last resort.

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 10:45 AM
I wonder, could this hypothetical council relocate to another plane, then Gate him in?

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 10:46 AM
Actually it says that it can move anyone, anywhere, to anywhere. You're not going to him, he's coming to you. You could also send him to a particularly nasty spot on the lower planes if you wanted.

I hear those level 20 Wizards have awful Will saves and no SR :smalltongue:


I wonder, could this hypothetical council relocate to another plane, then Gate him in?

No, because he wouldn't be "Extraplanar" - you would.


A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane).

Lysander
2010-02-12, 11:00 AM
Perhaps a custom made epic spell the guild developed just for this purpose? Combine the Reveal Seed and the Dispel seed to make a scrying spell that attempts to dispel any magical defense that blocks it.

The rogue wizard is just level 20, but a guild of wizards that's been around a while presumably has some higher level members.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 11:07 AM
Such a cabal of ur-wizards is begging to be overthrown, though. Consider Elminster, Pug, The Simbul... and doomed cabals like Dalaran, Netheril, Tar Valon etc.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 11:20 AM
I think any time there's a society of any sort in epic fantasy its just asking to be destroyed or radically altered.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 11:28 AM
Deities, natch.

And I already pointed out four ways around Mind Blank in my first post.

Deities aren't in the Monster Manual.

DueceEsMachine
2010-02-12, 11:28 AM
There's also the various robed wizards of Dragonlance... and how they hunt down renegade wizards. They don't wait until you're level 20 to do it though, they get you around level 4 or 5...

Just saying. A little bit of forward thinking goes a long way.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 11:30 AM
I think any time there's a society of any sort in epic fantasy its just asking to be destroyed or radically altered.

Except Hell, natch.

Asmodeus has been in charge since at least 2e and that doesn't look like it's going to change.


Deities aren't in the Monster Manual.

No, but they're in the PHB. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ContactOtherPlane.htm)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 11:34 AM
No, but they're in the PHB. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ContactOtherPlane.htm)

Not statted, they aren't. I'm mostly just being pedantic, though.

Also, why would a god be doing what a wizard cabal tells them?

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 11:34 AM
Deities are in the SRD, I believe.

Epic spell utilizing several seeds (contact, reveal, dispel, destroy) combined with DC-lowering ritual casting would do what's needed.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 11:38 AM
Deities are in the SRD, I believe.

They are, I was nitpicking that they aren't in the MM. You've still got the problem that most deities worth their salt wouldn't run errands for a wizard cabal.


Epic spell utilizing several seeds (contact, reveal, dispel, destroy) combined with DC-lowering ritual casting would do what's needed.

Ritual casting is stinky cheese.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 11:40 AM
Not statted, they aren't. I'm mostly just being pedantic, though.

They don't need stats to break through a Mind Blank.


Also, why would a god be doing what a wizard cabal tells them?

Because they asked; that's how the spell works.

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 11:46 AM
Ritual casting IS stinky cheese but it's 100% legal.

I still support the "scry on personal item" tactic, since Optymistik went and totally beat me to the punch with the psionics.

Zanatos777
2010-02-12, 11:46 AM
I'm confused. Why do Legend Lore and Vision get through Mind Blank? Mind Blank says it "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects."

What am I not seeing? Legend Lore and Vision fall squarely under this as far as I can tell.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 11:48 AM
They don't need stats to break through a Mind Blank.

Because they asked; that's how the spell works.

A one-word answer. Not very helpful unless you already have suspicions as to where he is.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 11:49 AM
I'm confused. Why do Legend Lore and Vision get through Mind Blank? Mind Blank says it "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects."

What am I not seeing? Legend Lore and Vision fall squarely under this as far as I can tell.

Because neither of them actually target the person you're trying to find. They target you, and bring to your mind everything significant they've done so long as they are level 11 or higher.

(Vision does it faster and with pictures)


A one-word answer. Not very helpful unless you already have suspicions as to where he is.

At level 20, you get 10 questions.

"Is he on the western continent?"
(Yes)

"Is he on the north half or the south half?"
(North)

"Which city is he in?"
(Candlekeep)

etc.

illyrus
2010-02-12, 11:51 AM
I realize you said core only but consider this:

I think an easier method is that by joining this guild you participate in a custom spell that allows a consensus of wizards to locate and/or summon your butt back for a trial that would supersede spells like mind blank etc. Any up and coming wizards are given a choice by the guild, join them or be turned to stone and reshaped into a block used to build their "Wall of Conscientious Objectors". The wizard is not dead so barring very powerful magic or else a game session or two devoted to a strike to recapture the block of stone and reform it they should be taken out of play. This could also give you some good story material for possible allies against the council available to an antagonist or else the PCs themselves.

Flesh to Stone might not work this way, it's been awhile since I played 3.5. Animate dead or trap the soul might be a better option.

Zanatos777
2010-02-12, 11:55 AM
Because neither of them actually target the person you're trying to find. They target you, and bring to your mind everything significant they've done so long as they are level 11 or higher.

(Vision does it faster and with pictures)
etc.

Oh. That feels like Mind Blank should still deflect that but if that is true it prompts the obvious question: Is there any defense against that?

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 11:56 AM
Oh. That feels like Mind Blank should still deflect that but if that is true it prompts the obvious question: Is there any defense against that?

Yes, an easy one - stay 10th level or lower.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 11:58 AM
Because neither of them actually target the person you're trying to find. They target you, and bring to your mind everything significant they've done so long as they are level 11 or higher.

(Vision does it faster and with pictures)

They only give you legends. Unless they've done something legendary since they left, no help.


At level 20, you get 10 questions.

"Is he on the western continent?"
(Yes)

"Is he on the north half or the south half?"
(North)

"Which city is he in?"
(Candlekeep)

etc.

What if he fled to another planet? You're going to have problems with getting useful information in one word answers - especially since he knows of the existence of CoP and will likely choose a location that screws with it.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 12:02 PM
I don't think Vision/Legend Lore would work. They still count as "information gathering" no matter who they target.

However an epic ritual would work just fine! The spellcraft DC can go really low when you have an entire organization of mages with level 9 spell slots to contribute. Of course, this means that anyone planning to rebel against the wizard's guild is first going to try to kill whoever knows the epic spell that penetrates Mind Blank.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:10 PM
I don't think Vision/Legend Lore would work. They still count as "information gathering" no matter who they target.

However an epic ritual would work just fine! The spellcraft DC can go really low when you have an entire organization of mages with level 9 spell slots to contribute. Of course, this means that anyone planning to rebel against the wizard's guild is first going to try to kill whoever knows the epic spell that penetrates Mind Blank.

The seed Reveal explicitly fails against Mind Blank. So I don't see how you're going to get an epic spell that beats it - and even if you could, it could be blocked by other epic spells that there's no way around.

sdream
2010-02-12, 12:13 PM
All I'm seeing listed here are spells.

Core only - ask the bard's guild.

30+ roll on bardic knowledge = "possibly known only by those who don’t understand the significance of the knowledge" - the example given is a mighty wizard's childhood nickname.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

(also PHB page 28 bottom right)

Assuming they bothered to put 5 points of knowledge history and have an int of 16 (+4 bonus) at level 6 they have a 1 in 20 chance of knowing something known only by those who don't understand the knowledge.

Such as the waiter at the mage's favorite restaurant knowing that his heavy tipping old man has a funny broach, and some antiquarian knowing that funny broach is a sign of a particular family line, and some historian knowing that mage is the only surviving member of said line...

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 12:14 PM
They only give you legends. Unless they've done something legendary since they left, no help.


As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.

The word "legend" means "something done by a level 11+ character" not "ancient story told around campfire."


What if he fled to another planet? You're going to have problems with getting useful information in one word answers - especially since he knows of the existence of CoP and will likely choose a location that screws with it.

You presumably have a lot of time on your hands to look for him if you're a cabal of rival wizards - and no matter how good he is, a level 20 wizard can't hide from a deity.

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 12:26 PM
The seed Reveal explicitly fails against Mind Blank. So I don't see how you're going to get an epic spell that beats it - and even if you could, it could be blocked by other epic spells that there's no way around.

That's why I suggested the dispel and destroy seeds. Dispel can nuke his mind blank and destroy can nuke a spell using the ward seed, if you stretch the description. You pretty much have to stretch epic spell seeds, anyway.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:27 PM
The word "legend" means "something done by a level 11+ character" not "ancient story told around campfire."


Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing.

Legends. Not "everything they've been doing".


You presumably have a lot of time on your hands to look for him if you're a cabal of rival wizards - and no matter how good he is, a level 20 wizard can't hide from a deity.

Point.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 12:29 PM
Legends. Not "everything they've been doing".

I already showed you the definition of "legendary" for the spell's purposes. It is clearly not the dictionary definition.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:32 PM
I already showed you the definition of "legendary" for the spell's purposes. It is clearly not the dictionary definition.

Yes, they and their exploits are legendary (ie, the spell works). It still only gives you legends.

Here's a slightly relevant quote from the ELH.

"General Information: Spells such as commune with
nature (Drd 5), legend lore (Brd 4, Knowledge 7, Sor/Wiz
6), and vision (Sor/Wiz 7) are in the category of spells that
instill information into the caster, but fall short of
answering specific questions. These spells are great for
providing the characters with clues to work from. While
answers often come hidden in metaphor and/or verse,
these spells potentially reveal real names, which spying,
divination spells, and knowledge checks can use. Make
sure you make up a few answers ahead of time to answer
PC questions about the thrust of a given adventure."

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 12:34 PM
Yes, they and their exploits are legendary (ie, the spell works). It still only gives you legends.

Even if you rule that way, Vision has the same criteria but gives you a picture of the subject.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:35 PM
Even if you rule that way, Vision has the same criteria but gives you a picture of the subject.

Both of them give you a picture. But not a current picture.

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 12:38 PM
If my DM gave me an image of my target as a five year old I'd kill him.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 12:40 PM
Both of them give you a picture. But not a current picture.

And now we're into sophistry.

Well, unless he was level 11+ at 5 years old, the picture you get will probably be current enough to kick off your investigation.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 12:42 PM
That's why I suggested the dispel and destroy seeds. Dispel can nuke his mind blank and destroy can nuke a spell using the ward seed, if you stretch the description. You pretty much have to stretch epic spell seeds, anyway.

That's what I had in mind too. Dispel seed to dispel magical protection, if successful then the Reveal seed works.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 12:43 PM
The wording of Wish for transportation is relevant. It "transports one creature per a caster level from anywhere on the plane." I don't need to know where our rogue mage is. Nor does the wish care about "local conditions" so I cast wish and wish for him to land in a specific spot, where we've had our friendly rogues set up some nice traps and we have a lot of guild wizards with ready actions to cast a large variety of fun spells at whatever appears in the designated spot. Probably some Energy Drains and maybe a well-aimed set of Disjunctions. Maybe some Meteor Swarms and other fun stuff. It is effectively save-or-die against a 9th level spell. And if necessary we can possibly have multiple wizards ready to cast wish in case the first one doesn't go well.

In order to do this, you really only need a single wizard of 17th level or higher. The rest can still be of lower level. Between Lightning, Fireball, and Ennervation and maybe a few archers, and maybe a view judicial Shouts ready, no one else needs to be higher than 9th level about.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 12:43 PM
That's why I suggested the dispel and destroy seeds. Dispel can nuke his mind blank and destroy can nuke a spell using the ward seed, if you stretch the description. You pretty much have to stretch epic spell seeds, anyway.

That's all well and good, but how do you find him to cast it on him?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:44 PM
And now we're into sophistry.

Well, unless he was level 11+ at 5 years old, the picture you get will probably be current enough to kick off your investigation.

No, it won't, because if he only recently ran away from you, the vast majority of his legendary deeds will be irrelevant to finding him (possibly even all of them, if he's laying low).

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 12:45 PM
No, it won't, because if he only recently ran away from you, the vast majority of his legendary deeds will be irrelevant to finding him (possibly even all of them, if he's laying low).

Great, so now all he has to do is avoid casting spells or indeed doing anything of significance.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 12:48 PM
Again, wish requires zero knowledge of where the mage is to transport the mage. So mind blank and the like just don't matter. I don't need a legend lore since it works anywhere on the plane. Unless he goes off plane, we're fine.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 12:48 PM
Great, so now all he has to do is avoid casting spells or indeed doing anything of significance.

Doing significant things indeed allows them to get those first clues they need. I didn't say that having a wizard cabal on your tail isn't highly inconvenient, just that you can hide.

@JoshuaZ: Dimensional Anchor yourself. Done.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 12:55 PM
Again, wish requires zero knowledge of where the mage is to transport the mage. So mind blank and the like just don't matter. I don't need a legend lore since it works anywhere on the plane. Unless he goes off plane, we're fine.

And the minute one of them stumbles across him by accident, and he kills one of them, his cover is quite literally blown.


Doing significant things indeed allows them to get those first clues they need. I didn't say that having a wizard cabal on your tail isn't highly inconvenient, just that you can hide.

Or he just might, you know, make the Will save. Spell Focus won't help Wish since it's not part of a school.

Voldecanter
2010-02-12, 12:57 PM
Well since Rules for making your Own spells is found within the Core Books , I am going to say that this Wizard's Guild should Create A custom spell using Core Rules . And then they make the spell which allows them to link .

When Linked they energize their power and build on more of their energy reserves , and the power they get from linking is being powered by the power and energy going through them all and that Power is being Energized by the Energizing Power and the Power ,Powers the Power and so on and so forth .

Once Link the wizards guild gets some magic scrolls with cool spells on them , and then they get a magic item that is a magic jar , and then they teleport to the wizard after breaking his defenses with their mighty powered power and then they blast him and utilize him with spells until his near death , and then they take the magic jar and seal away his soul within a small statue for all too look at and remember .............

DON'T **** WITH US !

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 12:57 PM
@JoshuaZ: Dimensional Anchor yourself. Done.

Oh. That is in Core. Hmm, that's annoying. But it only has duration 1 min/level
so unless you are burning all your spell slots on it, you aren't going to be likely to have it in effect when they wish. Inability to teleport and very few spell slots makes you very vulnerable to simple random issues. If the mages do this and also put out a large public bounty on your head (give us your head and we'll give you a +1 inherent bonus to an ability stat and lots of gold) this will be almost unstoppable over a short time period. And let's be honest, if the rogue wizard has no time but to spend all day casting Dimensional Anchor on himself, then the wizard cabal doesn't have much reason to actually care about him.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 12:59 PM
Oh. That is in Core. Hmm, that's annoying. But it only has duration 1 min/level
so unless you are burning all your spell slots on it, you aren't going to be likely to have it in effect when they wish. Inability to teleport and very few spell slots makes you very vulnerable to simple random issues. If the mages do this and also put out a large public bounty on your head (give us your head and we'll give you a +1 inherent bonus to an ability stat and lots of gold) this will be almost unstoppable over a short time period. And let's be honest, if the rogue wizard has no time but to spend all day casting Dimensional Anchor on himself, then the wizard cabal doesn't have much reason to actually care about him.

Or he can just put a Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) around his shack - it lasts days/level.

Lamech
2010-02-12, 01:00 PM
Legend lore is in no way shape or form a fool proof method of finding someone. It provides "legends" which are often helpful, but it in no way shape or form claims they are always helpful. Second point a "rule of thumb" does not mean "in every circumstance".

Three mind blank says NOTHING WHAT SO EVER about requiring you to be targeted. Or are you going to argue that one is "protected against all... information gathering by divination spells or effects" if divination spells can gather information about them? Also note that mind blank DOES protect against scrying effects that are not targetted at the mind blanked person.


@JoshuaZ: Dimensional Anchor yourself. Done.
But yeah wish does a good job of getting the wizard. And no, dimensional anchor does not protect against wish. Wish bypasses all local effect, such as divine domains, anti-magic fields, and forbidance spells.

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 01:00 PM
That's all well and good, but how do you find him to cast it on him?

Key it to his or her name, unique magical "signature", or any other identifying characteristic that will distinguish him from another spellcaster.

Never said it'd be easy...

A simulacrum, maybe?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 01:01 PM
Or he can just put a Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) around his shack - it lasts days/level.

Oh. That does a much better job. Although that assumes that the rogue is already pretty high level when he goes rogue (15th at least).

Ellardin: Making new spells is discussed in core, but it is poorly defined and subject explicitly to DM discretion, so counting it as in core really isn't helpful.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 01:06 PM
Legend lore is in no way shape or form a fool proof method of finding someone. It provides "legends" which are often helpful, but it in no way shape or form claims they are always helpful. Second point a "rule of thumb" does not mean "in every circumstance".

Neither does it mean "never helpful," nor "in no circumstance."

And Vision does not provide legends - it provides a picture.


Three mind blank says NOTHING WHAT SO EVER about requiring you to be targeted. Or are you going to argue that one is "protected against all... information gathering by divination spells or effects" if divination spells can gather information about them? Also note that mind blank DOES protect against scrying effects that are not targetted at the mind blanked person.

Even if the blank protects the subject, it does not protect the items they wield or the places where they perform their deeds.


But yeah wish does a good job of getting the wizard. And no, dimensional anchor does not protect against wish. Wish bypasses all local effect, such as divine domains, anti-magic fields, and forbidance spells.

It says nothing about bypassing those things. "Local conditions" refers to planar traits, not spells that specifically block extraplanar travel.


Well, Persistent Spell is vaguely in Core (Deities and Demigods) and an epic wizard with Improved Spell Capacity can Persist it.

No need for self-anchoring - Dimensional Lock is in core and has a very long duration.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:06 PM
And the minute one of them stumbles across him by accident, and he kills one of them, his cover is quite literally blown.



Or he just might, you know, make the Will save. Spell Focus won't help Wish since it's not part of a school.

I think you meant to address those two to the opposite people.

If his cover gets blown, he leaves and bunkers down somewhere else.


Oh. That is in Core. Hmm, that's annoying. But it only has duration 1 min/level
so unless you are burning all your spell slots on it, you aren't going to be likely to have it in effect when they wish. Inability to teleport and very few spell slots makes you very vulnerable to simple random issues. If the mages do this and also put out a large public bounty on your head (give us your head and we'll give you a +1 inherent bonus to an ability stat and lots of gold) this will be almost unstoppable over a short time period. And let's be honest, if the rogue wizard has no time but to spend all day casting Dimensional Anchor on himself, then the wizard cabal doesn't have much reason to actually care about him.

Well, Persistent Spell is vaguely in Core (Deities and Demigods) and an epic wizard with Improved Spell Capacity can Persist it.

EDIT: Or Dimensional Lock. Damn ninjas...

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:16 PM
Oh. That does a much better job. Although that assumes that the rogue is already pretty high level when he goes rogue (15th at least).

Wish is higher level.

But yes, as usual, lower-level casters are helpless against their high-level counterparts.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 01:20 PM
Wish is higher level.

But yes, as usual, lower-level casters are helpless against their high-level counterparts.

In the hypothetical given we had a pre-existing cabal of all the wizards. So that should include some high level wizards. But if you are utterly helpless unless you are at least 15th level, that means that pretty close to no wizard can go rogue.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:23 PM
In the hypothetical given we had a pre-existing cabal of all the wizards. So that should include some high level wizards. But if you are utterly helpless unless you are at least 15th level, that means that pretty close to no wizard can go rogue.

On the other hand, the cabal isn't as likely to care about tracking you down (especially if they're expending their precious XP) if you're several spell levels lower than the leaders.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 01:24 PM
I have your solution right here, and it makes a damn good plot hook. Behold what the transform seed can do:



The transform seed can also change its target into someone specific. To transform an object or creature into the specific likeness of another individual (including memories and mental abilities), increase the Spellcraft DC by +25.

So here's what the epic wizards do. They cast Dominate Person on a willing volunteer, then use an epic spell to turn them into a precise copy of the rogue magician. Congratulations, you have a mentally dominated copy of the wizard who knows everything they know. Make them tell you where the real one is. Then dispel the transformation, dismiss the Domination, and the person becomes their normal self again.

Here's how it becomes a good plot hook: the wizards instead of turning the volunteer back right away have him assist in destroying the bad guy. The PCs have to escort the copy and make sure the evil wizard personality doesn't break free from the mind control.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 01:24 PM
Neither does it mean "never helpful," nor "in no circumstance."

Every person has a lot of history. The chances that you get exactly the info you want isn't very high if we go by statistics. You may discover it's past lost love. Or that he enjoys cornflakes at breakfast. Or the clothes he likes to wear. Or...



And Vision does not provide legends - it provides a picture.

And unless the object/person is at hand, it's an incomplete picture.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 01:27 PM
Every person has a lot of history. The chances that you get exactly the info you want isn't very high if we go by statistics. You may discover it's past lost love. Or that he enjoys cornflakes at breakfast. Or the clothes he likes to wear. Or...

The first and third of those are great ways to find him.

Recall though, that no matter what you see, it is something that will lead to getting more information next time. This is explicitly in the spell description. So if you see him eating cereal, and there's only one country that has that specific cereal... yeah.


And unless the object/person is at hand, it's an incomplete picture.

As with Legend Lore, what you see with Vision will lead to a more accurate Vision next time.

Ormagoden
2010-02-12, 01:27 PM
It's not easy at all. Legend Lore takes two weeks.

Vision shows him to you, provided he did something significant, and doesn't give you any other information. So you'd better hope he's outside a Denny's or the Space Needle or something you can triangulate from.


Somebody plays shadowrun...

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:29 PM
I have your solution right here, and it makes a damn good plot hook. Behold what the transform seed can do:



So here's what the epic wizards do. They cast Dominate Person on a willing volunteer, then use an epic spell to turn them into a precise copy of the rogue magician. Congratulations, you have a mentally dominated copy of the wizard who knows everything they know. Make them tell you where the real one is. Then dispel the transformation, dismiss the Domination, and the person becomes their normal self again.

Here's how it becomes a good plot hook: the wizards instead of turning the volunteer back right away have him assist in destroying the bad guy. The PCs have to escort the copy and make sure the evil wizard personality doesn't break free from the mind control.

That is Epically broken.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 01:29 PM
Somebody plays shadowrun...

What, there can't be a Denny's in Oerth/Toril/Eberron? :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 01:31 PM
I don't think Vision/Legend Lore would work. They still count as "information gathering" no matter who they target.

It protects the person, not the item. Thus, if said caster is wielding a legendary item, they can get information about it via Legend Lore. They cant use legend lore to get information about the person directly, though if they know through other means that the weapon is associated with the character, they can possibly deduce something useful from this.

So, it can be circumstantially useful, but thats about it.

Non magical means of information gathering are also likely. Hiring a spunky group of adventurers, for example.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:33 PM
The first and third of those are great ways to find him.

Recall though, that no matter what you see, it is something that will lead to getting more information next time. This is explicitly in the spell description. So if you see him eating cereal, and there's only one country that has that specific cereal... yeah.



As with Legend Lore, what you see with Vision will lead to a more accurate Vision next time.

Vision's not really meant for finding someone who you already know about. It's meant as a starting point for finding out about something that you don't know about. You might find out about a lot of his past deeds - but you should have already known that, since he was a member of your cabal. It doesn't tell you about what he's doing now or where he is.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 01:33 PM
On the other hand, the cabal isn't as likely to care about tracking you down (especially if they're expending their precious XP) if you're several spell levels lower than the leaders.

In the Dragonlance world they explicitly do. If you are beyond about 3rd level or so and don't join the Conclave they will track you down. This failed when an very organized order of renegades was secretly formed by the followers of the setting's primary evil deity who were then too powerful for this to work by the time people found out about them. But in general, good planning and caring now about the potential little problem is the way to go.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:37 PM
In the Dragonlance world they explicitly do. If you are beyond about 3rd level or so and don't join the Conclave they will track you down. This failed when an very organized order of renegades was secretly formed by the followers of the setting's primary evil deity who were then too powerful for this to work by the time people found out about them. But in general, good planning and caring now about the potential little problem is the way to go.

Dragonlance is weird.

Cabals should have enough trouble avoiding massive internal wars that create Eyes of Terror where planets used to be without tracking down every last rogue.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 01:48 PM
Vision's not really meant for finding someone who you already know about. It's meant as a starting point for finding out about something that you don't know about. You might find out about a lot of his past deeds - but you should have already known that, since he was a member of your cabal. It doesn't tell you about what he's doing now or where he is.

This. And legend lore is obviously talking about legends. Because, yknow, it says it is, several times. It only works on everything if you cherry pick the spell description extremely hard. So, unless there's a legend about the clever way in which he hid from you, you're boned.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 01:50 PM
It protects the person, not the item. Thus, if said caster is wielding a legendary item,

Any magic item at all really, so long as it's above a certain CL and they wield it.


Dragonlance is weird.

Cabals should have enough trouble avoiding massive internal wars that create Eyes of Terror where planets used to be without tracking down every last rogue.

Recall that in Dragonlance, the wizards are basically clerics of the three moons. (They can "fall" for instance.)So there isn't a whole lot of room for infighting, because the moons govern their political relationship to a very large degree.

I agree with you though, that without that they should be at each other's throats in the vein of the Tha, Zhentarim, Aes Sedai etc.


And legend lore is obviously talking about legends. Because, yknow, it says it is, several times. It only works on everything if you cherry pick the spell description extremely hard. So, unless there's a legend about the clever way in which he hid from you, you're boned.

It also a) defines what it considers a legend and b) explicitly gathers "information," a very broad category.

Not sure how else I can say it.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 01:51 PM
This. And legend lore is obviously talking about legends. Because, yknow, it says it is, several times. It only works on everything if you cherry pick the spell description extremely hard. So, unless there's a legend about the clever way in which he hid from you, you're boned.

Or a legend about how he took over a planet after escaping.

It is a level 20 Wizard, after all.

This is why lying low is a good idea.

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 02:00 PM
What, there can't be a Denny's in Oerth/Toril/Eberron? :smalltongue:

I put a Waffle House in Arabel.

Back on topic, the comments regarding legendary magic items make sense.

'Course, the guy could be holed up in his own demiplane. That would make things fairly problematic.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 02:06 PM
Recall that in Dragonlance, the wizards are basically clerics of the three moons. (They can "fall" for instance.)So there isn't a whole lot of room for infighting, because the moons govern their political relationship to a very large degree.

I agree with you though, that without that they should be at each other's throats in the vein of the Tha, Zhentarim, Aes Sedai etc.

I know about the whole moons of magic thing. As I said, Dragonlance is weird.


It also a) defines what it considers a legend and b) explicitly gathers "information," a very broad category.

Not sure how else I can say it.

It defines "legendary", not "legend", and there's that passage I quoted which strongly suggests it's more of an "Idiot's Guide to Elminster".

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 02:19 PM
It defines "legendary", not "legend"

...Really? Semantics at best.


and there's that passage I quoted which strongly suggests it's more of an "Idiot's Guide to Elminster".

Even "Elminster for Dummies" could help you find him, so long as its current.

And of course "Vision" is more like his Wiki.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 02:26 PM
...Really? Semantics at best.

No, it's a very large difference. While characters of level 11+ are legendary, there will not be legends about all their exploits, especially not those that they are actually trying to keep secret.


Even "Elminster for Dummies" could help you find him, so long as its current.

Help, yes, if his place of residence was ever in a position to be found out.


When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known. If the person, place, or thing is not of legendary importance, you gain no information. As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.

If there are no legends about where the person is, they cannot be brought to your mind.

I mean, if he went out and started taking over planets or something, you could certainly locate him with Legend Lore IMO, but not if he's lying low.


And of course "Vision" is more like his Wiki.


This spell functions like legend lore, except that it works more quickly but produces some strain on you.

No quantitative difference in power.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 02:31 PM
No, it's a very large difference. While characters of level 11+ are legendary, there will not be legends about all their exploits, especially not those that they are actually trying to keep secret.

Whether their deeds are secret or not is irrelevant. Observe:


When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known.


Help, yes, if his place of residence was ever in a position to be found out.

As the spell explicitly provides information on key places (I would expect Elminster's tower to qualify, unless he is careful not to do anything inside, including warding it) that is not a problem.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-12, 02:38 PM
What, there can't be a Denny's in Oerth/Toril/Eberron? :smalltongue:

Those settings specifically only allow McDonalds, Starbucks and in some places, Tim Hortons.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 02:39 PM
Starbucks

I hear there's 6 on each layer of the Nine Hells.

Across from each other.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 02:40 PM
Whether their deeds are secret or not is irrelevant. Observe:

Information that has never been generally known and information that noone knows at all are two different things. Legend Lore is meant to be broad, not specific, and you explicitly lose accuracy for not having him there.

It's a spell which relies on DM adjudication a lot, which is why the unrestrictive wording. But it's no substitute for Scrying or Discern Location - otherwise, there would be no need for the existence of the latter.


As the spell explicitly provides information on key places (I would expect Elminster's tower to qualify, unless he is careful not to do anything inside, including warding it) that is not a problem.

Indeed, it would. What about the shack he's currently in?

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 02:44 PM
Information that has never been generally known and information that noone knows at all are two different things. Legend Lore is meant to be broad, not specific, and you explicitly lose accuracy for not having him there.

By definition, a secret is known by SOMEONE. Otherwise it isn't even information at all.


It's a spell which relies on DM adjudication a lot, which is why the unrestrictive wording. But it's no substitute for Scrying or Discern Location - otherwise, there would be no need for the existence of the latter.

Both explicitly have more functions than Scrying - the latter can only provide information on creatures, and is specifically defeated by Mind Blank.

DL is a bit broader - locating objects - but still not places.


Indeed, it would. What about the shack he's currently in?

Depends on what he's doing, what items he has in there (no staffs hopefully - "major magic items") and how long he can lay low.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 02:49 PM
By definition, a secret is known by SOMEONE. Otherwise it isn't even information at all.

Yes, it is. But there's no guarantee Legend Lore will pick it up. There's an awful lot of "may"s in the description, I'm sure you noticed.


Both explicitly have more functions than Scrying - the latter can only provide information on creatures, and is specifically defeated by Mind Blank.

DL is a bit broader - locating objects - but still not places.

My point is that Discern Location is an 8th level spell.

If Legend Lore could give the kind of accuracy you seem to think it does, there would be no need for Discern Location to exist.


Depends on what he's doing, what items he has in there (no staffs hopefully - "major magic items") and how long he can lay low.

Again, Legend Lore on the staff shouldn't give its current location if it's hidden. Some other divinations could do it, but I'm sure there are ways to protect against those.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 03:12 PM
Yes, it is. But there's no guarantee Legend Lore will pick it up. There's an awful lot of "may"s in the description, I'm sure you noticed.

If no other method will work, what have you got to lose?


My point is that Discern Location is an 8th level spell.

If Legend Lore could give the kind of accuracy you seem to think it does, there would be no need for Discern Location to exist.

It's not about accuracy. Discern Location takes 10 minutes with no drawback. LL takes weeks, and has to be cast multiple times to zero in on the quarry. Vision is faster, but makes you fatigued (i.e. you can't cast in in succession), costs XP, and again must be cast multiple times to get anything valuable. By the time you go through all those steps for both spells, your Elminster may well have moved on.

Whereas DL can lead you right to him - provided you know what he looks like and he doesn't have a Mind Blank up.


Again, Legend Lore on the staff shouldn't give its current location if it's hidden. Some other divinations could do it, but I'm sure there are ways to protect against those.

It CAN give its current location. It may not, but again, you have no better leads.

jiriku
2010-02-12, 04:13 PM
I have an idea about a guild of wizards. This guild has a sort of a "obligatory membership" for all powerful (above lvl 14) wizards and I would like some guidelines on how would guild members find a rouge wizard, not participating in their nice little community. The point is that in the past some wizards concocted some explosive plans which plunged the land into disarray, so the guild was formed as a body where wizards can do what they like without (seriously) endangering the land or trying to harm other wizards.

Ergo: A powerful wizard goes rouge. How can he be found and dealt with?

Important note: Core books only.

If a level 20 wizard goes rogue and most of his former guildmates are levels 14-18, they probably can't handle him. I mean, they could group up and try to take him down together, but he'd hard to find, and be likely to kill several of them in the attempt. What's likely to happen is that the guild charters a group of proven heroes who have experience saving kingdoms and such (read: a band of high-level adventurers) and offers to pay them a king's ransom in custom-crafted magical items if they'll go take care of the threat. Two outcomes are likely here:


The adventurers succeed, although perhaps some of them die. Great! At least no guild wizards were killed. Dispense the reward and call it a day.
The adventurers are all killed. Well, ok. At least you didn't pay them in advance! Charter another group. The rogue wizard will spend all his days dodging loot-hungry adventurers instead of causing trouble for his former guild.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 04:25 PM
I got the impression that 14 was the mandatory-join level. The guild's members itself probably start at 14 and keep going up.

You know what this reminds me of? Lawrence-Watt Evan's Ethshar series. All wizards in the world were required to join the Wizard's Guild even before learning their first cantrip. The Guild was mostly hands off but had a few strict rules for its members:

1. All wizards must belong to the wizard's guild. Learning any wizardry without joining the guild resulted in immediate execution.
2. Any wizard deliberately revealing secrets of wizardry to a non-guild member resulted in immediate execution.
3. Wizards could not become rulers (though they wielded plenty of political power).
4. Wizards could not use their magic to heal or prolong the life of any high ranking government official or ruler.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 04:26 PM
Any magic item at all really, so long as it's above a certain CL and they wield it.

It says weapons they wield. So, not any magic item by default, no. At least, not by RAW. You could perhaps persuade the DM to give you information about anything else they possess that would be considered legendary, but that's entirely outside of the listed rules.


It also a) defines what it considers a legend and b) explicitly gathers "information," a very broad category.

Not sure how else I can say it.

"If the person, place, or thing is not of legendary importance, you gain no information."

So...while the level 15 wizard is generally of legendary importance(though even then, not guaranteed to be), it's pretty clear that his toothbrush will not be. It's not merely enough for the caster himself to be legendary...you have to actually target something that is legendary to get....a legend.

The spell explicitly defines what is legendary. It does not explicitly define what a legend is. It says: " When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known."

Obviously, it is talking about what types of legends can be recalled...ie, basically any legend. But it still has to be a legend, and like many other common english words, the writers presumed you knew what it meant.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 04:27 PM
Hail Tyndmyr.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 04:28 PM
"If the person, place, or thing is not of legendary importance, you gain no information."[/I]


I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation. It doesn't say "isn't a legend" but rather of "legendary importance" which is a much broader phrasing. Where a legendary figure is hiding might be of legendary importance even if it isn't a legend.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 04:34 PM
That was with regard to targetting. Ergo, you can't target just any object with it. It has to be something that is, in itself, legendary.

In the context, legendary importance almost certain does mean it has a legend, though. It has to already be important, not a "if this works, there'll be a legend about how I found him by scrying on his toothbrush". That way lies shrodinger's issues.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 04:35 PM
It says weapons they wield. So, not any magic item by default, no.


"If the person, place, or thing is not of legendary importance, you gain no information."

I'm convinced at this point that I'm the only one who's actually read the spell description.


As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.

Oh look - a level limit, and "major magic items" which is exactly what I said. Not weapons, and definitely not toothbrushes.

Are we done constructing strawmen yet?


The spell explicitly defines what is legendary. It does not explicitly define what a legend is. It says: " When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known."

Obviously, it is talking about what types of legends can be recalled...ie, basically any legend. But it still has to be a legend, and like many other common english words, the writers presumed you knew what it meant.

Last time I checked, "information" was a common english word too.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 04:37 PM
The problem with Legend Lore is that, even if it works, it'll probably just bring this to your mind:


Zarvian The Red is a powerful mage who rebelled against the mighty Wizard's Guild. He hid himself and his wicked scheming from all divination magic with the Mind Blank spell. With few methods of finding him the Wizard's Guild cast Legend Lore, but the spell proved worthless, only bringing knowledge to mind that they already knew.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 04:38 PM
Optimystik, the wording refers to "key deeds" though. That's pretty vague. I don't think "place where he's currently sleeping or cooking dinner" really should count. But, I agree that as soon as the wizard does anything that's that substantial, the spell should probably be able to work.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 04:42 PM
The problem with Legend Lore is that, even if it works, it'll probably just bring this to your mind:

The spell specifically says it leads you to better information. Potholing the results every time it's cast is fiat.

The drawback to both spells is the egregious investment (casting time for LL, repetition, XP for Vision) - but if you have no other leads to find this guy, what exactly would you spend your time doing instead?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 04:42 PM
Optimystik, the wording refers to "key deeds" though. That's pretty vague. I don't think "place where he's currently sleeping or cooking dinner" really should count. But, I agree that as soon as the wizard does anything that's that substantial, the spell should probably be able to work.

This.gaah.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 04:43 PM
I'm convinced at this point that I'm the only one who's actually read the spell description.

Given that I quoted it repeatedly, I don't see how you can make this claim in good faith.


Oh look - a level limit, and "major magic items" which is exactly what I said. Not weapons, and definitely not toothbrushes.

Are we done constructing strawmen yet?

It's not a limit...it's a guideline. Rule of thumb, it says.

It also says "wields". A weapon is wielded. A bag of holding IV is not. So, shortening it from "major magic items wielded" to "major magic items" is fundamentally an inaccuate description of legitimate targets.

And, if you target the weapon, you get the legend of the weapon. This may or may not include anything of use about the current owner.


Last time I checked, "information" was a common english word too.

It is. However, you can't ignore the rest of the entire description and every other qualifier because the word information was used at one point.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 04:44 PM
The spell specifically says it leads you to better information. Potholing the results every time it's cast is fiat.

The drawback to both spells is the egregious investment (casting time for LL, repetition, XP for Vision) - but if you have no other leads to find this guy, what exactly would you spend your time doing instead?

It says it OFTEN leads you to better information. You'll note it only says this in the sections talking about casting it on a target you have limited information about.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 04:49 PM
The spell specifically says it leads you to better information. Potholing the results every time it's cast is fiat.

The drawback to both spells is the egregious investment (casting time for LL, repetition, XP for Vision) - but if you have no other leads to find this guy, what exactly would you spend your time doing instead?

Thing is...

Using it the way you want it to work...

Would likely be direct enough to hit a brick wall saying "I have Mind Blank".

Lysander
2010-02-12, 04:54 PM
I think that even if you used Legend Lore to indirectly gain information about the subject, targeting his items for instance, it'd take a page from spells that scan areas vs Mind Blank:


In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected.

In the case of Legend Lore it would probably reveal the item's history, but lacking any parts that would give away information about the wizard.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 04:55 PM
Optimystik, the wording refers to "key deeds" though. That's pretty vague. I don't think "place where he's currently sleeping or cooking dinner" really should count. But, I agree that as soon as the wizard does anything that's that substantial, the spell should probably be able to work.

I'm fine with that - in fact, if the threat of this spell being able to locate you the minute you do something with those 20 caster levels keeps you from doing anything, then isn't the guild doing its job by knowing the spell?


Given that I quoted it repeatedly, I don't see how you can make this claim in good faith.

Good faith is hard to come by when you attack strawmen arguments and claim they are mine. I don't recall ever mentioning the quarry's toothbrush, or the place he cooks dinner. Is that "good faith?"


It's not a limit...it's a guideline. Rule of thumb, it says.

Right - that's a minimum standard - meaning the spell is technically capable of discovering more, not less.


It also says "wields". A weapon is wielded. A bag of holding IV is not. So, shortening it from "major magic items wielded" to "major magic items" is fundamentally an inaccuate description of legitimate targets.

1) That's a strawman again. I said "staff," not bag or toothbrush or swatch or anything else.

2) I don't recall anything in the definition of "wield" that says it only relates to weapons.

Item Familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) can be "wielded" - are they all weapons?


And, if you target the weapon, you get the legend of the weapon. This may or may not include anything of use about the current owner.

The important thing is that it may. Do you have any other leads?


It is. However, you can't ignore the rest of the entire description and every other qualifier because the word information was used at one point.

Just because I want to use the spell's definition of "Legend" instead of the historical one, doesn't mean I'm ignoring anything.


It says it OFTEN leads you to better information. You'll note it only says this in the sections talking about casting it on a target you have limited information about.

How often is that? 60%? 75%? 90%?

You have no better leads.


Thing is...

Using it the way you want it to work...

Would likely be direct enough to hit a brick wall saying "I have Mind Blank".

Even if you rule that way, he cannot mind blank his items, or his laboratory, as above.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 04:57 PM
Actually, there's one good way to find the wizard though it's not core. Use Hindsight.

Technically it should work, since you're not viewing the wizard but rather their past self before they had Mind Blank active.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 04:57 PM
THE SPELL DOES NOT DEFINE LEGEND, ONLY LEGENDARY. I have said this before.

Cyrion
2010-02-12, 04:58 PM
Coming back to the wish: Wishing an effect on him gets him a save- iffy at best and probably won't work. Wishing info- may or may not work vs. the mindblank. How about wishing that the land around him changes its properties. Wherever he goes, the stones start singing or all the squirrels in the area triple in size and turn purple. You're not affecting him, and you're not divining info about him, and he leaves a trail.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 04:59 PM
THE SPELL DOES NOT DEFINE LEGEND, ONLY LEGENDARY. I have said this before.

LEGENDARY IS THE ADJECTIVE FORM OF LEGEND. THIS IS OTHERWISE KNOWN AS SEMANTICS.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 05:00 PM
Actually, there's one good way to find the wizard though it's not core. Use Hindsight.

Technically it should work, since you're not viewing the wizard but rather their past self before they had Mind Blank active.

If the wizard mind blanked soon after they went rogue or right before this won't help much.


I'm fine with that - in fact, if the threat of this spell being able to locate you the minute you do something with those 20 caster levels keeps you from doing anything, then isn't the guild doing its job by knowing the spell?

Yes.


Coming back to the wish: Wishing an effect on him gets him a save- iffy at best and probably won't work. Wishing info- may or may not work vs. the mindblank. How about wishing that the land around him changes its properties. Wherever he goes, the stones start singing or all the squirrels in the area triple in size and turn purple. You're not affecting him, and you're not divining info about him, and he leaves a trail.

Yes, but that's not a specific capability that is explicitly given by wish. So it is iffy. And arguably that would be an effect dependent on the individual and would thus allow a save.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 05:00 PM
Actually, there's one good way to find the wizard though it's not core. Use Hindsight.

Technically it should work, since you're not viewing the wizard but rather their past self before they had Mind Blank active.

Not much use if they put up Mind Blank before vamoosing.

Lamech
2010-02-12, 05:03 PM
The spell specifically says it leads you to better information. Potholing the results every time it's cast is fiat.

The drawback to both spells is the egregious investment (casting time for LL, repetition, XP for Vision) - but if you have no other leads to find this guy, what exactly would you spend your time doing instead?
Okay this is kind of wrong...

(though it often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time). See legend lore does not say it will find the thing for you. It will often "help" you "find" the target, and if you "find" the target you can get better information. "This great wizard left Oreth and travelled to the City of Light in the world of Eberron" is a huge freaking help. Casting legend lore again unless you go find him will not yield better information.



It says nothing about bypassing those things. "Local conditions" refers to planar traits, not spells that specifically block extraplanar travel.
About using wish: Local means "pertaining to or characterized by place or position in space; spatial." Planar traits are pretty much the only thing that don't fit this defenition.

I suppose you could use "pertaining to, characteristic of, or restricted to a particular place or particular places" but if a ENTIRE INFINITE PLANE is considered local then a small divine domain is super-local or something. As is any spells the wizard might be using.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 05:08 PM
I'm fine with that - in fact, if the threat of this spell being able to locate you the minute you do something with those 20 caster levels keeps you from doing anything, then isn't the guild doing its job by knowing the spell?

Yes, it is, as is the threat of being Wished back if he's caught outside a Dimensional Lock.

I'm fine with that.

I just take issue to Legend Lore being used as a Discern Location surrogate.


LEGENDARY IS THE ADJECTIVE FORM OF LEGEND. THIS IS OTHERWISE KNOWN AS SEMANTICS.

:tongue:

You're the one trying to finagle Legend Lore into being teh ubar divination to find everybody while not getting blocked by Mind Blank.

But while Rogue Wizard Esquire may be a valid target for Legend Lore (as he is legendary), the legends you will get won't be helpful to finding him - unless he does something legendary.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 05:11 PM
Good faith is hard to come by when you attack strawmen arguments and claim they are mine. I don't recall ever mentioning the quarry's toothbrush, or the place he cooks dinner. Is that "good faith?"

When did I talk about cooking dinner?

The toothbrush was an example of something obviously nonlegendary. I never stated you made that argument.


Right - that's a minimum standard - meaning the spell is technically capable of discovering more, not less.

No. It's a guideline. Rule of thumb is a guideline, not a standard. It gives the DM info about how it usually works, with latitude to make changes in specific, appropriate instances.


1) That's a strawman again. I said "staff," not bag or toothbrush or swatch or anything else.

You said "major magic items". A bag of holding IV is a

2) I don't recall anything in the definition of "wield" that says it only relates to weapons.


Item Familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) can be "wielded" - are they all weapons?

Four of the five "typical" examples given are in fact weapons. So...most of them are, yes. That's probably why it talks about wielding them.

All specific examples given are also weapons. The section describes them as similar to the legendary weapons rules.

Still, wield is only used three times in the entire course of the text, and that's in the bits copied over from the intelligent item section.


Just because I want to use the spell's definition of "Legend" instead of the historical one, doesn't mean I'm ignoring anything.

The spell does not say "a legend is x". Thus, it does not define a legend.


Even if you rule that way, he cannot mind blank his items, or his laboratory, as above.

If they're sapient, he can possibly do so. Not a guarantee that they are, obviously, but it is technically possible.

Either way, if he's mind blanked, legend lore on the item will not give you anything about his location.

And targetting his lab only helps if he's hiding in his lab and you know about his lab. In which case, you should probably just go there.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 05:14 PM
Okay this is kind of wrong...
See legend lore does not say it will find the thing for you. It will often "help" you "find" the target, and if you "find" the target you can get better information. "This great wizard left Oreth and travelled to the City of Light in the world of Eberron" is a huge freaking help. Casting legend lore again unless you go find him will not yield better information.

Did I honestly have to spell that out? Yes, once you figured out "he went to the City of Light at some point" you would head there looking for leads. That's investigation 101.

And once you get there, you split up - have the bard or guildmage or whoever prepare to Legend Lore again, now that they're in the city, while everybody else heads out to make Gather Information checks.

I notice that everyone decrying this use of the spell... hasn't put forth one alternate means of finding a wizard wearing a mind blank everywhere he goes.



I just take issue to Legend Lore being used as a Discern Location surrogate.

Why? It has a number of limitations that Discern Location does not. It just so happens that Mind Blank is not one of them.


:tongue:

You're the one trying to finagle Legend Lore into being teh ubar divination to find everybody while not getting blocked by Mind Blank.

Whereas you are trying to finagle Mind Blank into being teh ubar abjuration that makes wizards impossible to locate by anything but gods with a lot of time on their hands.


But while Rogue Wizard Esquire may be a valid target for Legend Lore (as he is legendary), the legends you will get won't be helpful to finding him - unless he does something legendary.

Which is what the guild doesn't want him to be doing anyway, so the mere threat of the spell is doing their job for them.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 05:23 PM
There's one major problem with the Legend Lore plan. From the spell, important part in bold:


When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind.

Legend Lore doesn't do original research, it just brings an existing legend into your head. If there's no legend about the subject you don't get information. This could still be useful since it basically gives you any information the world at large has about him, like theories about where he went or places he was spotted. But it won't tell you "The wizard is hiding in his secret lair, an invisible castle on top of this specific mountain over here." Mind Blank would stop that direct an attempt anyway.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-12, 05:23 PM
I notice that everyone decrying this use of the spell... hasn't put forth one alternate means of finding a wizard wearing a mind blank everywhere he goes.


I think that that is the point they are trying to make. Restricted to core, there really isn't any other option. The issue then becomes what exactly can Legend Lore do. That's sort of complicated and vaguely worded. Hence this argument.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 05:24 PM
I notice that everyone decrying this use of the spell... hasn't put forth one alternate means of finding a wizard wearing a mind blank everywhere he goes.

That's because IMNSHO, there shouldn't be one. The balance of power should weigh towards defenses against scrying.


Whereas you are trying to finagle Mind Blank into being teh ubar abjuration that makes wizards impossible to locate by anything but gods with a lot of time on their hands.

No, I'm not. It flat out says it is teh ubar abjuration that stops divination cold and stops even Wish and Miracle. Saying that something can beat it is the extraordinary claim, since even epic spell seeds have a proviso that they can't beat Mind Blank.


Which is what the guild doesn't want him to be doing anyway, so the mere threat of the spell is doing their job for them.

Exactly. You want to hide, you have to actually hide, but it's doable. This is generally the optimal situation for game balance.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 05:26 PM
When did I talk about cooking dinner?

You didn't, I just lumped all the strawmen used against me so far into my reply.


The toothbrush was an example of something obviously nonlegendary. I never stated you made that argument.

Then why mention it at all?


No. It's a guideline. Rule of thumb is a guideline, not a standard. It gives the DM info about how it usually works, with latitude to make changes in specific, appropriate instances.

Right, and if the guideline is "level 11 people are legendary" then that's a minimum standard. If the DM goes on to say "well, I say level 15 people are legendary" that's a houserule, not "latitude."


Four of the five "typical" examples given are in fact weapons. So...most of them are, yes. That's probably why it talks about wielding them.

All specific examples given are also weapons. The section describes them as similar to the legendary weapons rules.

Still, wield is only used three times in the entire course of the text, and that's in the bits copied over from the intelligent item section.

I honestly don't care if "wield" is used in a weapons context 50 times. The instant I find one where it isn't, it means that your premise ("wield can only pertain to weapons") has been falsified.


The spell does not say "a legend is x". Thus, it does not define a legend.

It says "Things that are X are legendary." You're saying "just because a passage says 'children who play are happy, that doesn't mean that they experience happiness!" It's blatant sophistry.


If they're sapient, he can possibly do so. Not a guarantee that they are, obviously, but it is technically possible.

Either way, if he's mind blanked, legend lore on the item will not give you anything about his location.

And targetting his lab only helps if he's hiding in his lab and you know about his lab. In which case, you should probably just go there.

1) Well, I suppose he could bring all his items and gear to life, followed by inhabiting a Living Vault - oh wait, that requires epic magic doesn't it... isn't this guy only level 20?

2) Nonliving items can't be protected with Mind Blank. "Target: One Creature."

3) You can target his lab without knowing where it is, simply by hearing a rumor that he has one. The spell will then lead you to someone who heard about it, which will lead you to somebody that had seen it, which will...

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 05:28 PM
That's because IMNSHO, there shouldn't be one. The balance of power should weigh towards defenses against scrying.

Well I take the opposite view - if it exists, it can be found.


No, I'm not. It flat out says it is teh ubar abjuration that stops divination cold and stops even Wish and Miracle. Saying that something can beat it is the extraordinary claim, since even epic spell seeds have a proviso that they can't beat Mind Blank.

Except I'm not beating it, am I? I'm quite plainly going around it.

If a Mind Blanked wizard really wants to stay off the grid, he shouldn't do anything important.


Exactly. You want to hide, you have to actually hide, but it's doable. This is generally the optimal situation for game balance.

Again, I have no problem with this - but without the spell being able to find him, he has no reason to hide, now does he?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 05:38 PM
Well I take the opposite view - if it exists, it can be found.

Put it this way.

At level 1, you can't find someone with magic, you're restricted to mundane means.

It seems reasonable that scrying and defenses are of reasonably equal power, so there should at high levels be a balance.

Now this balance should be a return to the initial state, because you've got just as much pulling both ways.

Which is "scrying doesn't do anything, you have to search by normal means".


Except I'm not beating it, am I? I'm quite plainly going around it.

If a Mind Blanked wizard really wants to stay off the grid, he shouldn't do anything important.

Again, I have no problem with this - but without the spell being able to find him, he has no reason to hide, now does he?

So let me get this straight.

ARE you arguing that Legend Lore can find a wizard who goes into seclusion after he runs?

Lamech
2010-02-12, 05:43 PM
1
2) Nonliving items can't be protected with Mind Blank. "Target: One Creature."

Of course they can. Intelligent items are treated as constructs. Constructs are "A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature. " And an itelligent item is not an animated object. Therefore, it is a creature.

One can make an item intelligent for 2k. A quick glance tell me that staves don't lose their magic when they run out of charges, and in fact it is specifically stated that some staves stay magical after running out of charges. But even if staffs can't be intelligent then the wizard can do with out staves.

And casting mind blank on all his toys is easy since he can just make a trap to do it.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 05:53 PM
Which is "scrying doesn't do anything, you have to search by normal means".

You do have to use normal means with Legend Lore. It just puts you on the right track.

In other words, instead of "I question everyone in the city" it becomes "I question his mentor, who gave him a minor artifact as a keepsake 3 years ago on the night of the full moon."


So let me get this straight.

ARE you arguing that Legend Lore can find a wizard who goes into seclusion after he runs?

No, provided he does nothing that causes him to ping on the spell while in seclusion.

Which rather defeats the purpose of being a level 20 Wizard, but hey, if he doesn't like it, he'll have to take the fight to the Guild, then, won't he?


Of course they can. Intelligent items are treated as constructs. Constructs are "A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature. " And an itelligent item is not an animated object. Therefore, it is a creature.

I'm going to just give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you really didn't notice the "Nonliving" in my post.

Lamech
2010-02-12, 05:54 PM
I'm going to just give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you really didn't notice the "Nonliving" in my post.
Err... a construct isn't really alive.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-12, 05:56 PM
No, provided he does nothing that causes him to ping on the spell while in seclusion.

Which rather defeats the purpose of being a level 20 Wizard, but hey, if he doesn't like it, he'll have to take the fight to the Guild, then, won't he?

Ok, then we're in agreement and splitting hairs. I see no further cause to keep arguing.

Optimystik
2010-02-12, 05:56 PM
Err... a construct isn't really alive.

I'm not going down this road with you. No, really.

Let's just assume that by "nonliving" I meant "Not a creature" and leave it at that.

Adamaro
2010-02-16, 04:16 AM
Ok guys ... I have an ogre in in my profile ... and with a good reason. At this point I feel like taking my club and go beserk. WAAAAGH!

So. I would wery much appreciate if one could summarize Standard Operating Procedure for Rogue Wizards. Up to this point we have:
- legend lore
- vision
- wish

As much as I could understand, vision gives the needed info, while legend lore is dubius at best. Wish may not be able to teleport the target into "prison" if the target has anchor cast on him, but still, we have full guild capabilities at our back. That may mean, say, two dozen lvl 20 wizards. So one of those wishes may just come trough when anchor does not work. From there on it's enervation, bowmen and guilds' own personal Pit of ooze of magic imunity.

Good?

olentu
2010-02-16, 04:38 AM
Ok guys ... I have an ogre in in my profile ... and with a good reason. At this point I feel like taking my club and go beserk. WAAAAGH!

So. I would wery much appreciate if one could summarize Standard Operating Procedure for Rogue Wizards. Up to this point we have:
- legend lore
- vision
- wish

As much as I could understand, vision gives the needed info, while legend lore is dubius at best. Wish may not be able to teleport the target into "prison" if the target has anchor cast on him, but still, we have full guild capabilities at our back. That may mean, say, two dozen lvl 20 wizards. So one of those wishes may just come trough when anchor does not work. From there on it's enervation, bowmen and guilds' own personal Pit of ooze of magic imunity.

Good?

As a summary it comes down probably no divinations will work to locate the wizard if the wizard is not doing something that has already created a legend and even if the wizard is that is at best questionable depending on a DM ruling about mindblank given that it blocks even epic spells barring specific exceptions. Of course if the wizard is doing things that have already created legends in one location the wizard could possibly be found without the divinations.

As for wish that is also questionable depending on an interpretation of what local conditions are. And even then there are other methods that one could take as to defending against wish if one is just hiding out.

Edit: Though the methods of avoiding wish do sort of require having certain items.

lord_khaine
2010-02-16, 04:45 AM
Coming back to the wish: Wishing an effect on him gets him a save- iffy at best and probably won't work. Wishing info- may or may not work vs. the mindblank. How about wishing that the land around him changes its properties. Wherever he goes, the stones start singing or all the squirrels in the area triple in size and turn purple. You're not affecting him, and you're not divining info about him, and he leaves a trail.

If nothing else this sounds quite funny, i like the idea of small purple squirrels.


No, I'm not. It flat out says it is teh ubar abjuration that stops divination cold and stops even Wish and Miracle. Saying that something can beat it is the extraordinary claim, since even epic spell seeds have a proviso that they can't beat Mind Blank.


But MB isnt teh ubar abjuration, just to start with then there is the psionic power that goes though it like a scorching ray though a wall of butter.
from there on it isnt so far out that 2-3 months of casting legend lore would give you the same result.


And casting mind blank on all his toys is easy since he can just make a trap to do it.
But if you reach the point of trap abuse, then Mb becomes worthless, since you can then just get a custom item of Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm).

olentu
2010-02-16, 04:58 AM
If nothing else this sounds quite funny, i like the idea of small purple squirrels.



But MB isnt teh ubar abjuration, just to start with then there is the psionic power that goes though it like a scorching ray though a wall of butter.
from there on it isnt so far out that 2-3 months of casting legend lore would give you the same result.


But if you reach the point of trap abuse, then Mb becomes worthless, since you can then just get a custom item of Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm).

If one assumes that by core one means only the PHB, DMG, and MM then there is rather no metafaculty available.

lord_khaine
2010-02-16, 05:03 AM
If one assumes that by core one means only the PHB, DMG, and MM then there is rather no metafaculty available.

But if one assumes core to be the material contained in the SRD then there is no problem (for that matter, magic traps are not even listet in the SRD).

olentu
2010-02-16, 05:16 AM
But if one assumes core to be the material contained in the SRD then there is no problem (for that matter, magic traps are not even listet in the SRD).

Well the SRD as a whole is very not core. Also magic traps are there. Check the traps section.

Adamaro
2010-02-16, 05:31 AM
Core: PHB, DMG, and MM. Period.

lord_khaine
2010-02-16, 05:51 AM
Well the SRD as a whole is very not core. Also magic traps are there. Check the traps section.

Ok might have overlooked the trap part, i though it was something found only in PHB2, but its not like it matter when you can use Metafaculty.



Core: PHB, DMG, and MM. Period.

Ehh No, you might considder those books to be core, but that does not make it official in any way, and wizards have actualy called the Psionic book core, so as such then that would be more official.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 06:06 AM
Metafaculty still gets blocked by "Hi I'm an Epic spell that functions identically to Mind Blank".

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 07:22 AM
Metafaculty still gets blocked by "Hi I'm an Epic spell that functions identically to Mind Blank".

Most level 20 wizards can't cast epic spells.

And once epic magic enters the equation, you can simply make one of your own that defeats Mind Blank anyway. A cabal of wizards has far more DC mitigation than a loner.

Finally, where does it say Mind Blank defeats epic magic?

mostlyharmful
2010-02-16, 07:31 AM
There's still a few fairly fundamental problems with Metafaculty

1. You've got to have met this wizard in the first place, since we're all the way back to using 9th level powers with an XP cost it'll be because this is a paranoid mage that doesn't let people find him in the first place...

2. The actual information isn't all that useful for finding and attacking a paranoid high level mage
- name, race, alignment, class ---- meh, already knew it
- either high or very high ---- meh, already knew it
- location ---- situational, either personal demiplane (which tells you nothing) or personal fortress of doom if the mage isn't reliant on hiding - This one does cut down on secret moonbases as the primary lair but does nothing for fallback lairs full of clones or words of recall or whatever...
- Significant possessed items --- ok, if he's got a big item or two sure but it's wards, spells known and minions that you'll need
- significant activities --- This one seems the best, use it a few times and hope to build up an understanding of the mages routine and contacts.... but then we're stalking this guy using multiple 9th level castings....
- mental view --- Which says nothing about seeing through illusions or shapechanges which render anything near a high level mage unreliable.

Then you've got the possibility of failling to penetrate the mages protections, if they've cranked their CL to ungodly levels (as paranoid mages are want to do) then it might all be for nothing anyway. Items of Metafaculty would be particularly likely to not work since they'd only have a +17 on the check with a minimum DC of 23 and no upper max.

I'm not saying that Metafaculty isn't the best plan just that it's no silver bullet and the best way to use it is expensive, draining, slow and liable to tip off a Mage that CoPs for stalkers every morning.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 07:34 AM
1. You've got to have met this wizard in the first place, since we're all the way back to using 9th level powers with an XP cost it'll be because this is a paranoid mage that doesn't let people find him in the first place...

Not "met." Seen.

And you may have seen him, even a glimpse at some point long ago. As long as you have done so even once, he is done, because of this. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)

If you haven't seen him yet, that's what Vision is for.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 07:37 AM
Most level 20 wizards can't cast epic spells.

This is true, but they could conceivably conspire to have one cast on them. Metafaculty is abusive enough that I'd at least theoretically allow it.


And once epic magic enters the equation, you can simply make one of your own that defeats Mind Blank anyway. A cabal of wizards has far more DC mitigation than a loner.

No, you can't.


Finally, where does it say Mind Blank defeats epic magic?

The reveal seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/reveal.htm) has the following text:


Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks the spell, and the caster senses that the spell is so blocked.

I know of no other seed that can find people.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 07:40 AM
No, you can't.

Sure you can. From the Dispel seed:


Any creature, object, or spell is potentially subject to the dispel seed, even the spells of gods and the abilities of artifacts.

Finding him is the hard part, but removing his protection isn't.

Adamaro
2010-02-16, 07:44 AM
No. Metafaculty. Only. PHB. DMG. MM.

(my limitations for campaign)

tnx

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 07:55 AM
Well then, there is no Epic magic in those three books, and your only options are Vision, getting lucky with Legend Lore + Gather Information, or asking a god to find him for you. So relax.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 08:22 AM
Yes, psionics is not core. If all of the SRD were considered core, that'd lead to craziness like people saying gestalt was core. It is in the SRD, after all.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-16, 08:44 AM
Let's get this straight. Wizard gets to level 20.

Wizard puts up Mind Blank 24/7.

Wizard goes somewhere and does something noteworthy. Wizard then teleports away to a random location, from which he enters a MMM, plane shifts to a random material plane location, and then teleports to his seclusion location.

Wizard then uses teleport (as described above) to go to locations where he performs noteworthy acts, and teleports away (as described above).

Legend Lore will only note the locations of his noteworthy acts. Not where he goes after he does them.

lord_khaine
2010-02-16, 08:49 AM
No. Metafaculty. Only. PHB. DMG. MM.

(my limitations for campaign)

tnx

Large letters only make you more wrong, and stop disrupting the discussion regarding how to find a level 20 wizard inside the core rules.


Yes, psionics is not core. If all of the SRD were considered core, that'd lead to craziness like people saying gestalt was core. It is in the SRD, after all.

Sure its core, or well the psionic handbook is considered a core book by wizards, and its not like there is a more official definition of the core books.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 08:51 AM
Legend Lore will only note the locations of his noteworthy acts. Not where he goes after he does them.

This is true. However, depending on the noteworthy act, it will provide a clue as to what he is up to. In the absence of psionics and divine assistance, mundane investigation techniques have to take over from there.

The purpose of Legend Lore (and Vision) is to provide leads, not to solve the case on its own. Without it, that wizard would be off the grid entirely unless a god gets involved.

The only way the Wizard can stay completely hidden is if he does nothing noteworthy - which is probably the cabal's goal anyway. If nobody knows there is a level 20 wizard running around and not under their control, their power base remains unchallenged.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 08:56 AM
Sure its core, or well the psionic handbook is considered a core book by wizards, and its not like there is a more official definition of the core books.

It's not part of the core set. Yknow, the three books that WOTC sells as "the core set".

So then, no, it's not core. I suspect you're mistaking some guy at wizards thinking psionics should be core with actual WOTC policy.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 09:02 AM
Sure you can. From the Dispel seed:

Finding him is the hard part, but removing his protection isn't.

You knew what I meant. By "defeats Mind Blank" I meant "finds someone despite their Mind Blank".


Large letters only make you more wrong, and stop disrupting the discussion regarding how to find a level 20 wizard inside the core rules.

He's the OP. It's his thread. He can't be wrong about the terms of the discussion.


Sure its core, or well the psionic handbook is considered a core book by wizards, and its not like there is a more official definition of the core books.

The EPH is part of the SRD, but not part of core. Core is the PHB, the DMG, and the MM. This is referred to by most splatbooks when they talk about what you need to use them.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 09:04 AM
You knew what I meant. By "defeats Mind Blank" I meant "finds someone despite their Mind Blank".

But you don't have to find him. Dispel the planet, or get his name and have the spell target him (range: one plane). Again, the cabal has mitigation and he doesn't - they can make truly ridiculous spells with enough of that, and he can't keep up.

But since the OP doesn't want Epic, this train of thought is irrelevant anyway.

lord_khaine
2010-02-16, 09:08 AM
It's not part of the core set. Yknow, the three books that WOTC sells as "the core set".

So then, no, it's not core. I suspect you're mistaking some guy at wizards thinking psionics should be core with actual WOTC policy.


The EPH is part of the SRD, but not part of core. Core is the PHB, the DMG, and the MM. This is referred to by most splatbooks when they talk about what you need to use them.

well, the CPH says the EPH is a core book, so there you have it, a official source says it, and we finaly found something CPH is good for.


He's the OP. It's his thread. He can't be wrong about the terms of the discussion.


What? of course he can, the only thing he did was to start the discussion, he doesnt own it anymore than we do, and considering how rude he has been in his comments regarding core books im ignoring him at this point.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 09:10 AM
What? of course he can, the only thing he did was to start the discussion, he doesnt own it anymore than we do, and considering how rude he has been in his comments regarding core books im ignoring him at this point.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm merely keeping to his restrictions as a thought exercise, rather than any remote desire to acquiesce to his incivility.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 09:14 AM
well, the CPH says the EPH is a core book, so there you have it, a official source says it, and we finaly found something CPH is good for.

What Complete Psionic says is


WHAT YOU NEED TO PLAY
Complete Psionic makes use of the information in the three D&D core rulebooks - Player's Handbook (PH), Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG) and Monster Manual (MM), as well as Expanded Psionics Handbook (EPH).

So not only does it not support you, it proves you unequivocally wrong.


What? of course he can, the only thing he did was to start the discussion, he doesnt own it anymore than we do, and considering how rude he has been in his comments regarding core books im ignoring him at this point.

He asked a question, he sets the parameters of the question.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 09:16 AM
He asked a question, he sets the parameters of the question.

Yes, but discussions naturally evolve - you yourself attest to that, because epic rules aren't Core either.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 09:18 AM
Yes, but discussions naturally evolve - you yourself attest to that, because epic rules aren't Core either.

True. But he still has the right to ask for answers that don't involve stuff outside his parameters. I will note that there are Epic rules in the DMG, though I don't believe Epic Spellcasting is in there.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 09:39 AM
Epic rules found within the DMG are core. The rest are not. EPH is most certainly not core, and I've never seen any source say different. And sadly, I do own Complete Psionic. At least it was cheap.

That said, no...we certainly don't have to just talk about what the OP wants. However, if we open it up from core, there are suddenly a LOT of spells out there that might be helpful to some degree...but we're best off ignoring epic spellcasting, on the basis that it's stupid.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 09:44 AM
Can we not bash CPsi in every thread? :smallsigh:

There is a good reason to include epic spellcasting - that's probably how a deity is going to locate him, should one decide to do so. It's also the best way for a cabal of wizards to make use of their numbers - there's few other ways that arcanists can cooperate.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 09:46 AM
Epic rules found within the DMG are core. The rest are not. EPH is most certainly not core, and I've never seen any source say different. And sadly, I do own Complete Psionic. At least it was cheap.

That said, no...we certainly don't have to just talk about what the OP wants. However, if we open it up from core, there are suddenly a LOT of spells out there that might be helpful to some degree...but we're best off ignoring epic spellcasting, on the basis that it's stupid.

I agree. However, if the OP specifically asks a direct question and is given a response which ignores their question, they have a right to be pissed.

Epic spellcasting is only really bad with ritual casting. Make the mitigating factor for supporting spellcasters logarithmic and impose a limit on the reduction (say removing half the DC max) and suddenly it's not nearly as broken anymore.

@Optimystik: No, a deity would have other means at their disposal. Especially one like Boccob or Vecna that is automatically aware of everything the wizard does to hide.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 09:51 AM
I agree. However, if the OP specifically asks a direct question and is given a response which ignores their question, they have a right to be pissed.

Nobody "has a right to be pissed" here. It's just a game, or more accurately, an internet forum about a game.
But I'm done discussing the OP's temper anyway.


@Optimystik: No, a deity would have other means at their disposal. Especially one like Boccob or Vecna that is automatically aware of everything the wizard does to hide.

If a Greater Deity is helping find him then he's completely screwed anyway. I was referring more to the lesser and demi-ones, that would be more inclined to answer a cabal's query.

A Greater Deity can just rewrite reality. "I have Mind Blank up." "No, you don't." "He's over there!"

Boccob might actually help the guy hide, especially if this cabal is trying to restrict magic as they please.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 10:05 AM
If a Greater Deity is helping find him then he's completely screwed anyway. I was referring more to the lesser and demi-ones, that would be more inclined to answer a cabal's query.

Vecna is a lesser deity, but Portfolio Sense means he auto-notices any attempt to hide anything if it affects five hundred or more people (and the wizard cabal could easily be that size). It's sorta hard to hide from someone if the act of hiding itself sets off a ping in their head. There's also remote sensing being a massive pain.

Lysander
2010-02-16, 10:15 AM
Here's the solution. Research a non-divination spell that lets you track him. For example:

Track Teleport
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You analyze residual damage to the fabric of space caused by spells in the teleportation and calling subschools. On each round you concentrate you detect damage from one spell starting with those of highest level. You can detect spells cast as old as 1 week/caster level. You learn what spell it was, the caster level of whoever cast it, and you gain precise knowledge of where relative to your current position the travelers departed to or arrived from. You can without ending Track Teleport cast any appropriate spell from this list to follow a single spell to its origin or destination: Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Gate. Spells usually prone to randomized arrival points such as Teleport or Planeshift instead perfectly follow the spell you have chosen, but the destination must be within range of the spell you are using. It your destination is shielded against interdimensional travel you cannot travel there, but you still learn where it is.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 10:29 AM
Vecna is a lesser deity, but Portfolio Sense means he auto-notices any attempt to hide anything if it affects five hundred or more people (and the wizard cabal could easily be that size). It's sorta hard to hide from someone if the act of hiding itself sets off a ping in their head. There's also remote sensing being a massive pain.

I agree with that, but being god of secrets doesn't mean he's eager to share them either. After all, once he shares the info with them, it's not a secret anymore and thus leaves his purview. That could definitely count as "against his interests."

I also agree that Portfolio Sense is definitely a pain if you're trying to hide from Boccob. From DaD:



Portfolio Sense

Boccob senses all magic use (spellcasting, item use, spell-like ability use, and magic item creation) seventeen weeks before it happens, and retains the sensation for seventeen weeks after the event occurs.

Pretty hard to hide from someone like that, given that he can detect you before you mind blank!


Here's the solution. Research a non-divination spell that lets you track him. For example:

Track Teleport

What school would that be, if not Divination?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 10:33 AM
Here's the solution. Research a non-divination spell that lets you track him. For example:

Track Teleport
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You analyze residual damage to the fabric of space caused by spells in the teleportation and calling subschools. On each round you concentrate you detect damage from one spell starting with those of highest level. You can detect spells cast as old as 1 week/caster level. You learn what spell it was, the caster level of whoever cast it, and you gain precise knowledge of where relative to your current position the travelers departed to or arrived from. You can without ending Track Teleport cast any appropriate spell from this list to follow a single spell to its origin or destination: Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Gate. Spells usually prone to randomized arrival points such as Teleport or Planeshift instead perfectly follow the spell you have chosen, but the destination must be within range of the spell you are using. It your destination is shielded against interdimensional travel you cannot travel there, but you still learn where it is.

I agree with Optimystik here. If you're finding out information, it's Divination.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 11:17 AM
In my research, I discovered a great way to find this Wizard using Legend Lore - from BoED of all places! (While I was reading up on my VoP Tattooed Monk idea.)

Check it out:



TRUE NAME

Each creature has a unique true name among the Words of Creation. No mortal is familiar with the countless true names of every creature in the world, no matter how extensively she has studied the Words of Creation. Nevertheless, a character familiar with the Words of Creation can research a specific creature’s true name if she has access to legend lore and either contact other plane or commune. Researching a true name is similar to researching a new spell. It requires one week per 2 HD of the creature and an expenditure of 1,000 gp per week. The character must cast (or have cast on her behalf ) legend lore once each week, but the material component cost is included in the research cost. At the end of the research time, the character must cast commune or contact other plane, paying the XP cost for commune if applicable. Then she makes a Knowledge check, using the specialty appropriate to the target creature’s type (arcana for a construct or dragon, religion for an undead, and so on). The DC for this check is 10 + the creature’s Hit Dice. If the check succeeds, the character has discovered the creature’s true name. If it fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

Once you have his True Name, finding him should be easy. And wouldn't you know it, the spell can discover other things besides "legends." Who would have thought?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 11:24 AM
In my research, I discovered a great way to find this Wizard using Legend Lore - from BoED of all places! (While I was reading up on my VoP Tattooed Monk idea.)

...

Once you have his True Name, finding him should be easy. And wouldn't you know it, the spell can discover other things besides "legends." Who would have thought?

legend lore alone is not sufficient. You also need either commune or COP. AND you need a crapton of research.

So no, it's pretty clear that legend lore alone is not sufficient for this, and it never says that legend lore alone provides anything other than legends. Presumably you're using the legend lore material in conjunction with commune/COP to try to figure out his name from his legends.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 11:28 AM
In my research, I discovered a great way to find this Wizard using Legend Lore - from BoED of all places! (While I was reading up on my VoP Tattooed Monk idea.)

Check it out:



Once you have his True Name, finding him should be easy. And wouldn't you know it, the spell can discover other things besides "legends." Who would have thought?

Okay, I looked up True Names. Besides the fact that they're as obnoxious as Sanctify the Wicked, how does knowing his true name help find him?

EDIT: Okay, not quite as obnoxious.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 12:21 PM
legend lore alone is not sufficient.

Where did I say that legend lore alone was sufficient to find out a Truename?

I was pointing out that the spell can be used simply for general information gathering - as I was arguing throughout the thread. This method of investigation explicitly works, whether or not the person has their deeds penned in song or whatever it was you guys were arguing.


Okay, I looked up True Names. Besides the fact that they're as obnoxious as Sanctify the Wicked, how does knowing his true name help find him?
EDIT: Okay, not quite as obnoxious.

Quite simply, you can focus on it to find him with Vision or other effects, no matter what guise he goes under - in other words, you can now focus on him even if he tries to hide, changes his name and race, etc. From Tome of Magic:



The Universe Keeps Track of You

[...]If a target changes its creature type with a spell such as polymorph, its personal truename doesn't change, although the truename you would use in a less specific utterance might. Shapechange, wild shape, disguises, resurrection, even reincarnation - none of these change a personal truename. Only the ritual of renaming can change a personal truename.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 12:24 PM
Where did I say that legend lore alone was sufficient to find out a Truename?

I was pointing out that the spell can be used simply for general information gathering - as I was arguing throughout the thread. This method of investigation explicitly works, whether or not the person has their deeds penned in song or whatever it was you guys were arguing.

Except that this is not general information gathering, it never says that legend lore does anything but get legends in this, and thus, it does not explicitly work to get general information.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 01:16 PM
Except that this is not general information gathering, it never says that legend lore does anything but get legends in this, and thus, it does not explicitly work to get general information.

But it can get information on anyone, whether they have "legends" or not. So whatever it is digging up, it can't be legends as you define them.

Unless you're saying bards in D&D compose a sonnet about everyone who hits 11th level, that is.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 01:17 PM
But it can get information on anyone, whether they have "legends" or not. So whatever it is digging up, it can't be legends as you define them.

Unless you're saying bards in D&D compose a sonnet about everyone who hits 11th level, that is.

How are you getting to this conclusion?

Aharon
2010-02-16, 01:31 PM
@Words of Creation and Legend Lore
I think that information was updated in the Tome of Magic. I can't remember the details, but I think it changed the DC and the spell requirements - spells now aren't required, but add a modifier to your knowledge check.

Lamech
2010-02-16, 01:46 PM
But it can get information on anyone, whether they have "legends" or not. So whatever it is digging up, it can't be legends as you define them.

Unless you're saying bards in D&D compose a sonnet about everyone who hits 11th level, that is.
Also a response too...

And wouldn't you know it, the spell can discover other things besides "legends." Who would have thought?

Legend Lore, in conjunction with other things, can gather information that is not legends; this does not meant that legend lore alone can gather information that is not legends. This can easily be shown with an example:

Commune in conjunction, with other things, can gather information that is not an answer to a yes or no question. (Truenames) This does not mean that commune alone can gather information that is not answer's to yes or no questions.

As you can see just because when you combine legend lore with something you get non-legends does not mean legend lore gives non-legends. But you might get the true name of the wizard depending on how the DM rules the process of getting a truename actually works. (And I would rules you could...)

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 01:50 PM
How are you getting to this conclusion?

Because not everyone in the world has a legend about them - the very point you and mushroom were raising to try and counter me.


Legend Lore, in conjunction with other things, can gather information that is not legends; this does not meant that legend lore alone can gather information that is not legends.

But if it can only gather legends, and is not gathering legends (again I use the example of someone who is high level without being famous), then what purpose does it serve in the ritual?

I posit that the "in conjunction with other things" is what allows it to give very precise information (i.e. a truename), not what allows it to break away from some perceived "sonnets and campfire songs only!" rule.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 01:13 AM
Because not everyone in the world has a legend about them - the very point you and mushroom were raising to try and counter me.

But someone in their family or someone connected to them will, if you look far enough, and Tome of Magic says that your truename is related to those of your family. All this proves is that legend lore is involved in finding out someone's truename - it doesn't tell you where they are. And neither does Vision.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 01:31 AM
This is true. However, depending on the noteworthy act, it will provide a clue as to what he is up to. In the absence of psionics and divine assistance, mundane investigation techniques have to take over from there.

The purpose of Legend Lore (and Vision) is to provide leads, not to solve the case on its own. Without it, that wizard would be off the grid entirely unless a god gets involved.

The only way the Wizard can stay completely hidden is if he does nothing noteworthy - which is probably the cabal's goal anyway. If nobody knows there is a level 20 wizard running around and not under their control, their power base remains unchallenged.

And if the whole goal is to let people know that?

Random towns and cities, random acts of extreme violence, then... melt away.

There's not much lead to go on.


Here's the solution. Research a non-divination spell that lets you track him. For example:

Track Teleport
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You analyze residual damage to the fabric of space caused by spells in the teleportation and calling subschools. On each round you concentrate you detect damage from one spell starting with those of highest level. You can detect spells cast as old as 1 week/caster level. You learn what spell it was, the caster level of whoever cast it, and you gain precise knowledge of where relative to your current position the travelers departed to or arrived from. You can without ending Track Teleport cast any appropriate spell from this list to follow a single spell to its origin or destination: Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Gate. Spells usually prone to randomized arrival points such as Teleport or Planeshift instead perfectly follow the spell you have chosen, but the destination must be within range of the spell you are using. It your destination is shielded against interdimensional travel you cannot travel there, but you still learn where it is.

And that wouldn't get past the teleport method I placed down before it.

*Mayhem*
Teleport
Magnificent Mansion
Enter Mansion
Plane Shift to material plane
Teleport Home

As the caster of this detection spell cannot enter a MMM, he can't follow the trail.

In addition, without shenanigans, casting most of the spells on that list will end the Trace.

Occasional Sage
2010-02-17, 03:02 AM
If the Guild has been keeping the area exclusive for a while, they've probably got custom spells enchanted into their scrying devices to find these folks.

Why wait until the mages are 14+ to start, though? If a mage hits, say, 8th level there's a better-than-fair chance they'll live to 14th. Tag them with an undetectable-except-by-epic magical homing beacon which was researched to circumvent the normal anti-tracking effects, provided that it pre-exists them. Then, once they hit 14th you own them.

olentu
2010-02-17, 03:07 AM
If the Guild has been keeping the area exclusive for a while, they've probably got custom spells enchanted into their scrying devices to find these folks.

Why wait until the mages are 14+ to start, though? If a mage hits, say, 8th level there's a better-than-fair chance they'll live to 14th. Tag them with an undetectable-except-by-epic magical homing beacon which was researched to circumvent the normal anti-tracking effects, provided that it pre-exists them. Then, once they hit 14th you own them.

Probably because the guild would then not be able to find the homing beacon making it useless.

Occasional Sage
2010-02-17, 03:11 AM
Right. Obviously, undetectable to Detect Magic/Detect Scrying/I Like My Privacy and such. Not undetectable to the Guild who, say, know the password or whatever.

Sheesh! :smallwink:

olentu
2010-02-17, 03:30 AM
Right. Obviously, undetectable to Detect Magic/Detect Scrying/I Like My Privacy and such. Not undetectable to the Guild who, say, know the password or whatever.

Sheesh! :smallwink:

On a more serious note all that means is that it only works if someone has not researched a block all forms of location no matter what spell.

This leads to the answer to the question "A powerful wizard goes rouge. How can he be found and dealt with?" being basically "The DM says they do" or "The DM says they can't" which is probably not what is desired.

Adamaro
2010-02-17, 04:57 AM
Large letters are for those low int people, who do not understand you do not bring a motorbike(non core) to a marathon(core). Sure you can win, but you will also be (and for a good reason) excluded from the race. So the questions stands (it has been mainly answered and thanks for those replyes) for PHB, DMG an MM ONLY.

It is nice to see that some people understand this point, but quite saddening, how others miss it.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 08:32 AM
But someone in their family or someone connected to them will, if you look far enough, and Tome of Magic says that your truename is related to those of your family. All this proves is that legend lore is involved in finding out someone's truename - it doesn't tell you where they are. And neither does Vision.

Nobody else in your family has your personal truename except you.

I never said Vision tells you where they are - it's quite clear it tells you where they were - but knowing where someone was is one way to find them, every rookie detective knows this.


And if the whole goal is to let people know that?

Random towns and cities, random acts of extreme violence, then... melt away.

There's not much lead to go on.

I'm not sure I follow you. Let people know what? Snuffing out a town/city is probably noteworthy enough to show up on Vision.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 08:51 AM
I'm not sure I follow you. Let people know what? Snuffing out a town/city is probably noteworthy enough to show up on Vision.

Let people know what? Why, that the whole goal is to let people know that the cabal/guild/etc. is no longer in total control.

And let the town/city ping. By the time anyone gets there, the wizard is teleported away, in a MMM, plane shifted back somewhere else on the material plane, and teleported to his hideout.

Which has no suitable legends associated with it.

In other words? The only thing they'd be able to track is the carnage. Not the wizard.

And publicizing the carnage? That's kinda the whole point.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 08:57 AM
Again, you'd have to rely on mundane investigation to uncover him here. Very few people are truly random - if there is any kind of pattern to his attacks, they can figure out which town he will strike next based on the previous ones and lay an ambush. The only thing Vision would help you do is arrive at the scene before the trail grows entirely cold.

If he is truly random, then they have no way of catching him without divine intervention - just like a serial killer or lone terrorist in real life.

Though if he is using his magic simply to flatten random towns, Boccob or someone else might step in to assist in his capture. If he is only flattening the ones under cabal control, they have the basis of deducing a pattern.

It could make for an interesting campaign, all in all.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 09:02 AM
Again, you'd have to rely on mundane investigation to uncover him here. Very few people are truly random - if there is any kind of pattern to his attacks, they can figure out which town he will strike next based on the previous ones and lay an ambush. The only thing Vision would help you do is arrive at the scene before the trail grows entirely cold.

If he is truly random, then they have no way of catching him without divine intervention - just like a serial killer or lone terrorist in real life.

Though if he is using his magic simply to flatten random towns, Boccob or someone else might step in to assist in his capture. If he is only flattening the ones under cabal control, they have the basis of deducing a pattern.

It could make for an interesting campaign, all in all.

Very few people are 100% random. But very few people are predictable enough, when put to it, to predict where they'll go next. That kinda stuff is typically just for the movies. Someone trying to throw society into disarray? No target will have any major importance over another, aside from the first. The first would be something flashy. After that, never metropolises, but stick to small to mid sized settlements.

As for Boccob stepping in? If it can only be done by gods, it qualifies as DM fiat.

As for deducing a pattern based on Cabal only? That'll only work once the number of remaining acceptable targets is equal to the number of people left to monitor them. Otherwise, yeah, you'll get a pattern: Cabal towns. But if there are 10,000 cabal settlements left, that doesn't much help you out.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 09:16 AM
Very few people are 100% random. But very few people are predictable enough, when put to it, to predict where they'll go next. That kinda stuff is typically just for the movies. Someone trying to throw society into disarray? No target will have any major importance over another, aside from the first. The first would be something flashy. After that, never metropolises, but stick to small to mid sized settlements.

You're assuming a lack of ego that I personally find it strange for a level 20 Wizard not to possess. He has very good reasons to avoid larger towns, but will he have the wisdom to heed them?


As for Boccob stepping in? If it can only be done by gods, it qualifies as DM fiat.

Naturally - though his involvement has an in-universe justification. The problem is that it is justified on both sides. Which would he be more likely to oppose - the arcane terrorist sullying the good name of mages everywhere, or the tyrannical regime attempting the throttle magic?

The answer, of course, is whichever side upsets the balance more.


As for deducing a pattern based on Cabal only? That'll only work once the number of remaining acceptable targets is equal to the number of people left to monitor them. Otherwise, yeah, you'll get a pattern: Cabal towns. But if there are 10,000 cabal settlements left, that doesn't much help you out.

I agree, that many settlements is hard to cover. But if 10,000 towns are at risk of attack, you again have a justification for divine involvement.

A player has only himself to blame if he brings justified fiat down upon his head.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-17, 09:19 AM
I agree, that many settlements is hard to cover. But if 10,000 towns are at risk of attack, you again have a justification for divine involvement.

A player has only himself to blame if he brings justified fiat down upon his head.

Right. The safeties a paranoid wizard has are mostly lost if you go chaotic stupid. Power is great, but no amount of it can compensate for someone using it ineptly.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 09:28 AM
You're assuming a lack of ego that I personally find it strange for a level 20 Wizard not to possess. He has very good reasons to avoid larger towns, but will he have the wisdom to heed them?Hm. 1 level 20 wizard vs dozens of level 20 wizards in a heads-up fight.

I think Wisdom 3 would cover that.


Naturally - though his involvement has an in-universe justification. The problem is that it is justified on both sides. Which would he be more likely to oppose - the arcane terrorist sullying the good name of mages everywhere, or the tyrannical regime attempting the throttle magic?

The answer, of course, is whichever side upsets the balance more.Fiat is Fiat. If the only way to find and kill the level 20 wizard is with DM assistance, then you didn't find and kill the wizard. Mary Sue did, under the watchful purview of the DM.


I agree, that many settlements is hard to cover. But if 10,000 towns are at risk of attack, you again have a justification for divine involvement.10,000 settlements are at risk of attack every day, in many settings. Deities would know that only one would be actually attacked. And logically, they wouldn't be very often, and destruction wouldn't be total. Perhaps the wizard's even masquerading as a Cabal wizard, to rouse anti-cabal sentiment, as well as increase his options for viable targets, thus decreasing the chance he's found.

In other words? Guerilla warfare does not equal justification to bring pantheons howling down upon the heads of the caster.


A player has only himself to blame if he brings justified fiat down upon his head.
And you've failed to meet the burden of that. To the cabal, there are 10,000 at risk. To the wizard doing it? 1 city has mayhem wrought in it every 3-6 months or so.

Now... The towns appear "at risk" to the cabal because their knowledge is not complete. What, do you think, are the odds that the gods are equally ignorant, and won't know what is going on, and where? But then, that's all in the realm of fiat, which is parlance for "I can't do it by the book so I'm gonna do it by assuming the mantle of DM and saying no".

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 09:39 AM
Hm. 1 level 20 wizard vs dozens of level 20 wizards in a heads-up fight.

I think Wisdom 3 would cover that.

Was the cabal 20 themselves? I wasn't aware of that parameter.
If they are, they may not be able to cover 10,000 towns, but between spies, simulacra, the Telephone trick and familiars they should have enough pairs of eyes to have a reasonable chance of spotting him even if he is Mindblanked - particularly if there is a method to his attacks.


Fiat is Fiat. If the only way to find and kill the level 20 wizard is with DM assistance, then you didn't find and kill the wizard. Mary Sue did, under the watchful purview of the DM.

You're saying that as though the person invoking divine assistance somehow lost the game by doing so. If the Wizard deserves to be caught then he will be. If he deserves to overthrow the cabal, then that is what will happen. At that level of power - on both sides - it is quite reasonable for deities to take notice, and get involved.


10,000 settlements are at risk of attack every day, in many settings. Deities would know that only one would be actually attacked. And logically, they wouldn't be very often, and destruction wouldn't be total. Perhaps the wizard's even masquerading as a Cabal wizard, to rouse anti-cabal sentiment, as well as increase his options for viable targets, thus decreasing the chance he's found.

In other words? Guerilla warfare does not equal justification to bring pantheons howling down upon the heads of the caster.

Divine intervention does not necessarily mean that Boccob's avatar will show up personally and start smiting. But supplying the cabal leader with the name of the next village to be hit and letting him handle it is certainly possible.

Contact Other Plane can provide this information quite easily, especially since Boccob will know of it 17 weeks in advance.


And you've failed to meet the burden of that. To the cabal, there are 10,000 at risk. To the wizard doing it? 1 city has mayhem wrought in it every 3-6 months or so.

Now... The towns appear "at risk" to the cabal because their knowledge is not complete. What, do you think, are the odds that the gods are equally ignorant?

Of course the cabal's knowledge is incomplete - that is why they have to use Visions, CoPs, investigation, gather information etc., to try and get more.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 10:00 AM
Was the cabal 20 themselves? I wasn't aware of that parameter.
If they are, they may not be able to cover 10,000 towns, but between spies, simulacra, the Telephone trick and familiars they should have enough pairs of eyes to have a reasonable chance of spotting him even if he is Mindblanked - particularly if there is a method to his attacks.
By the same tricks, the wizard could send only simulaca out. Please, let's keep the greatest imbalances of the game out of this.

You're saying that as though the person invoking divine assistance somehow lost the game by doing so. If the Wizard deserves to be caught then he will be. If he deserves to overthrow the cabal, then that is what will happen. At that level of power - on both sides - it is quite reasonable for deities to take notice, and get involved.And it's quite reasonable to assume that deities DID get involved. They sent level 20 servants.


Divine intervention does not necessarily mean that Boccob's avatar will show up personally and start smiting. But supplying the cabal leader with the name of the next village to be hit and letting him handle it is certainly possible.

Contact Other Plane can provide this information quite easily, especially since Boccob will know of it 17 weeks in advance.Contact Other Plane also explicitly pisses off the deity it contacts. Doesn't matter whether it's the god of secrets or the god of answering Contact Other Plane. The god resents it.

That alone should give you an idea of the level of involvement that deities prefer to have in the world.


Of course the cabal's knowledge is incomplete - that is why they have to use Visions, CoPs, investigation, gather information etc., to try and get more.
And none of the above will effectively predict future targets if the caster doesn't have a discernable pattern. Unless, of course, you rule that the god governing magic and its wise use would choose a cabal of magic hoarding tyrants to impose his blessings upon.

I mean really, I've seen some far fetched ideas in my time, but that's right up there with the god of war choosing Gandhi.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 10:07 AM
By the same tricks, the wizard could send only simulaca out. Please, let's keep the greatest imbalances of the game out of this.

That's just a tad ironic, when you're the one proposing he hide out on a personal demiplane and use MMM as an escape route in between mass-murdering civilians to prove a point.


And it's quite reasonable to assume that deities DID get involved. They sent level 20 servants.

How do you know the cabal was sponsored by any sort of deity? Isn't skill with arcane magic supposed to be under the purview of mortals?


Contact Other Plane also explicitly pisses off the deity it contacts. Doesn't matter whether it's the god of secrets or the god of answering Contact Other Plane. The god resents it.

That alone should give you an idea of the level of involvement that deities prefer to have in the world.

The resentment already manifests in the form of one-word answers. Successfully contacting a greater deity - quite an easy check for another level 20 Wizard, and they can all take turns trying if need be - still gives an 87% chance of a true answer. "Which town will [insert rogue wizard's Truename] attack next?" only requires a one word answer - the name of the town.


And none of the above will effectively predict future targets if the caster doesn't have a discernable pattern. Unless, of course, you rule that the god governing magic and its wise use would choose a cabal of magic hoarding tyrants to impose his blessings upon.

I mean really, I've seen some far fetched ideas in my time, but that's right up there with the god of war choosing Gandhi.

Please note that I am not supporting the idea of a cabal of wizards restricting magic. I think any reasonable deity of magic would want such an organization toppled. My arguments are merely assuming the perspective that the deity, as you said, would not want to be involved more than required by divinations asked of him.

The premise was the OP's, not mine.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 10:32 AM
That's just a tad ironic, when you're the one proposing he hide out on a personal demiplane and use MMM as an escape route in between mass-murdering civilians to prove a point.Oh, that was when I was under the impression that we were being reasonable.

In that case, it's gate for a Solar. Service: a lock of your hair, and you may be on your way.
Then simulacrum that.
From there, just have your solars use their wish SLA's to spawn endless solar simulacra, and sent a few hundred at each cabal member.

There's a reason most people assume Gate and Simulacrum are off limits.


How do you know the cabal was sponsored by any sort of deity? Isn't skill with arcane magic supposed to be under the purview of mortals?They don't have to be sponsored by a deity. They don't even need to be aware which god they're helping. Such is the mysterious ways of the gods.


The resentment already manifests in the form of one-word answers. Successfully contacting a greater deity - quite an easy check for another level 20 Wizard, and they can all take turns trying if need be - still gives an 87% chance of a true answer. "Which town will [insert rogue wizard's Truename] attack next?" only requires a one word answer - the name of the town.The resentment is RESENTMENT. There is no other way to say it. The spell says that the god resents such contact. How is manifests is totally 100% irrelevant.

The god does not like doing this, and does not want to do it. Period. Any argument stating that a deity wants to be CoP'd for information is directly against RAW. Because the deity resents such contact, per the spell description.

Though the following are all ways around the above:
(1) wizard appears and casts a summons
(2) wizard sends minions, simulacra, etc.
(3) Wizard goes for the town of "new brunswick" or "Cape Horn" (one word answers kinda fall apart when not all towns have one word names)


Please note that I am not supporting the idea of a cabal of wizards restricting magic. I think any reasonable deity of magic would want such an organization toppled. My arguments are merely assuming the perspective that the deity, as you said, would not want to be involved more than required by divinations asked of him.

The premise was the OP's, not mine.
If the premise that the cabal is there, tyrannizing magic... Then the precedent exists that Boccob, or whatever passes for Boccob in that world, isn't getting involved in tyrannical oppression through magic.

That's a rather strong argument that the your Deus-Ex-Machina is missing a few parts.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 10:40 AM
Oh, that was when I was under the impression that we were being reasonable.

In that case, it's gate for a Solar. Service: a lock of your hair, and you may be on your way.
Then simulacrum that.
From there, just have your solars use their wish SLA's to spawn endless solar simulacra, and sent a few hundred at each cabal member.

There's a reason most people assume Gate and Simulacrum are off limits.

Um... I don't recall ever mentioning Gate or Solars in this thread.

The simulacra are for more pairs of eyes (since Mind Blank blocks scrying), nothing more. You can use one without the other, you know.


They don't have to be sponsored by a deity. They don't even need to be aware which god they're helping. Such is the mysterious ways of the gods.

Which is why I said it's a toss-up as to which side the deity will want to assist. It depends very much on the circumstances of the cabal's formation and the rogue wizard's tactics.


The resentment is RESENTMENT. There is no other way to say it. The spell says that the god resents such contact. How is manifests is totally 100% irrelevant.

The god does not like doing this, and does not want to do it. Period. Any argument stating that a deity wants to be CoP'd for information is directly against RAW. Because the deity resents such contact, per the spell description.

The spell description also states an 87% chance of getting the right answer, by RAW. You can't deny that.


If the premise that the cabal is there, tyrannizing magic... Then the precedent exists that Boccob, or whatever passes for Boccob in that world, isn't getting involved in tyrannical oppression through magic.

I agree - IF tyranny really is what they are doing.

Lamech
2010-02-17, 10:44 AM
But if it can only gather legends, and is not gathering legends (again I use the example of someone who is high level without being famous), then what purpose does it serve in the ritual?

But if commune can only gather answers to yes or no questions and is not gathering legends, then what purpose does commune serve in the ritual?

But if legend lore can only gather information about "legendary" people and is not gathering information about "legendary" people, then what purpose does legend lore serve in the ritual?

The "other things" of getting truenames lets you gets the truename of Joe the level one commoner, or will you argue a level one commoner qualifies as legendary? It lets commune answer questions that are definitly not yes or no questions. The other parts of finding a truename let spell do things the spells alone can not do. Therefore if spells do something with other parts added, we can not conclude that the spell can do it alone.



I posit that the "in conjunction with other things" is what allows it to give very precise information (i.e. a truename), not what allows it to break away from some perceived "sonnets and campfire songs only!" rule. The "in conjunction with other things" lets commune break away from the "yes or no questions only!" rule. And the "other things" lets legend lore break away from the "'legendary' people only!" rule. Those "other things" let spells do stuff they otherwise could not; just because a spell does something with "other things" is no evidence it can do that something with out the "other things".


Again, you'd have to rely on mundane investigation to uncover him here. Very few people are truly random - if there is any kind of pattern to his attacks, they can figure out which town he will strike next based on the previous ones and lay an ambush. The only thing Vision would help you do is arrive at the scene before the trail grows entirely cold.
Attacking Cabal towns of above 100 people and less than say... 1000 is not a lead. People can be truly random if they feel like it. Its called pulling words out of a hat.

The caster can also throw nightmare spells or called and bound creatures if he feels like it at the hapless towns. Also if the mage hides in a MMM your screwed and nothing you can do.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 10:56 AM
But if commune can only gather answers to yes or no questions and is not gathering legends, then what purpose does commune serve in the ritual?

But if legend lore can only gather information about "legendary" people and is not gathering information about "legendary" people, then what purpose does legend lore serve in the ritual?

The "other things" of getting truenames lets you gets the truename of Joe the level one commoner, or will you argue a level one commoner qualifies as legendary? It lets commune answer questions that are definitly not yes or no questions. The other parts of finding a truename let spell do things the spells alone can not do. Therefore if spells do something with other parts added, we can not conclude that the spell can do it alone.

The "in conjunction with other things" lets commune break away from the "yes or no questions only!" rule. And the "other things" lets legend lore break away from the "'legendary' people only!" rule. Those "other things" let spells do stuff they otherwise could not; just because a spell does something with "other things" is no evidence it can do that something with out the "other things".

Actually, you can't get Joe the Commoner's Truename with this method - just like Legend Lore itself, it limits the acquisition of information to level 11 characters and higher.

This suggests the ritual combines the separate aspects (and restrictions) of the various component spells, rather than subsuming them into something different and unrestricted, as you are claiming.

Commune/CoP could simply be used to vet the details of his life received through Legend Lore. "Did this event really happen?" The exact method of applying it is left up to the players' and DM's imaginations, which does not preclude LL as a source of general, non-campfire tale information.


Attacking Cabal towns of above 100 people and less than say... 1000 is not a lead. People can be truly random if they feel like it. Its called pulling words out of a hat.

As I told Phoenix, I agree - above a certain number of towns the cabal cannot hope to maintain adequate surveillance. How high that number is depends on how many members, agents, simulacra and other methods of gaining eyes they have.

If he wipes out enough towns, assuming no divine interference, one of two outcomes will occur - the remaining ones will lose faith in the cabal's ability to protect them and they will be forced to disband, or he will eventually pick a town that they do have protected and they will locate him, whether due to running out of towns that are not so protected, or blind chance.


The caster can also throw nightmare spells or called and bound creatures if he feels like it at the hapless towns. Also if the mage hides in a MMM your screwed and nothing you can do.

If we're bringing summons and nightmares into the equation, one thing we can be sure of is that a cabal of wizards can field more of them than a lone rogue. That is why I didn't mention Gate, Binding etc.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 11:03 AM
If we're bringing summons and nightmares into the equation, one thing we can be sure of is that a cabal of wizards can field more of them than a lone rogue. That is why I didn't mention Gate, Binding etc.

That's less important than you'd think.

Cabal has we'll say, 100 level 20's.

Rogue is just 1.

Rogue teleports to Podunk, Podunkia.

There are no cabal wizards in THIS town.

In Podunk, Podunkia, which faction can summon more?

The Rogue wizard counts on being where the Cabal isn't. As such, as long as this is true, wherever the rogue wizard is, he can summon more than the cabal.

When this is not true, said wizard is in a retreat situation anyway.

So, it can be surmised, as long as the cabal has not located the rogue wizard, then wherever said wizard is? He's able to summon more.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 11:12 AM
There are no cabal wizards in THIS town.

If they have no spies, familiars, existing summons, simulacra etc. then yes, the rogue wizard wins out.

In which case, I refer to the "eventuality" scenario - assuming no fiat, either the cabal will lose credibility, or the rogue will run out of Podunks to bomb/accidentally pop into a protected town, and ping on their radar.

Again - I personally prefer the former option (I have yet to see a "cabal of wizards" that hasn't ended up corrupt) - but in a real-world context, either is possible. In the latter situation, one dimensional anchor/lock can make his escape very difficult.

I really do think this is a silly idea for a campaign unless the goal is for a PC wizard to eventually ruin the cabal's reputation and free magic for the masses. I'm just being Devil's Advocate.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 11:20 AM
If they have no spies, familiars, existing summons, simulacra etc. then yes, the rogue wizard wins out.

In which case, I refer to the "eventuality" scenario - assuming no fiat, either the cabal will lose credibility, or the rogue will run out of Podunks to bomb/accidentally pop into a protected town, and ping on their radar.

Again - I personally prefer the former option (I have yet to see a "cabal of wizards" that hasn't ended up corrupt) - but in a real-world context, either is possible. In the latter situation, one dimensional anchor/lock can make his escape very difficult.

I really do think this is a silly idea for a campaign unless the goal is for a PC wizard to eventually ruin the cabal's reputation and free magic for the masses. I'm just being Devil's Advocate.

Devil's Advocate... Sigh. The eternal position of those who argue for no other purpose than to argue.

(1) Wish doesn't give 2 shakes about Dimensional Anchors or locks. Bye.
(2) If you insist on Simulacrums? Refer to my earlier example. It won't be a wizard. It'll be 5 Solars for every Cabal member. Because Simulacrum works like that, sadly.
(3) Even if they "ping" from a spy/familiar (summons don't last but 6 minutes, even with a level 20 caster extending them), at the very best, a cabal caster will have to spend an action teleporting in. At that point, the wizard casts his damaging spell, which triggers a contingency, sending him away. The entire operation can be done in one round. So, that spy/familiar/etc better have a really dang good spot check. Because, by the time the mayhem starts? The wizard's already gone.

There is no way to catch a fully defensive buffed wizard when you have a large area to cover, and limited resources.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 11:32 AM
Devil's Advocate... Sigh. The eternal position of those who argue for no other purpose than to argue.

Not so - this is a thought exercise. It would be easy for me to say "this idea is pointless" and stop posting, except I do find the idea interesting.


(1) Wish doesn't give 2 shakes about Dimensional Anchors or locks. Bye.

What if one cabal member readies actions to counterspell (with his Wishes, if need be) while the other is Locking? This is all in the surprise round, after he pops into a town they have under surveillance and they teleport in support, of course.


(2) If you insist on Simulacrums? Refer to my earlier example. It won't be a wizard. It'll be 5 Solars for every Cabal member. Because Simulacrum works like that, sadly.

Again I remind you that Gate is not inextricably tied to Simulacrum. I understand they go well together, but it really is possible to cast one without the other.


(3) Even if they "ping" from a spy/familiar (summons don't last but 6 minutes, even with a level 20 caster extending them),

Bound creatures stick around for days actually, but anyway,


at the very best, a cabal caster will have to spend an action teleporting in. At that point, the wizard casts his damaging spell, which triggers a contingency, sending him away. The entire operation can be done in one round. So, that spy/familiar/etc better have a really dang good spot check. Because, by the time the mayhem starts? The wizard's already gone.

His contingency can only trigger from one event. If he sets it to Anchor, they can use Lock. If he sets it to Lock, they can use Anchor. Or just dispel it, or ready an action to counterspell his escape, or...

[QUOTE=PhoenixRivers;7907828]There is no way to catch a fully defensive buffed wizard when you have a large area to cover, and limited resources.

And I agree. But eventually, the area won't be very large.

You are saying that divine intervention is fiat... but the populace getting disillusioned with the cabal is also fiat, because that eventuality is solely up to the DM to determine. Without it, the towns will just dwindle, with no NPC reaction, until either the area they have to cover isn't large anymore, or until the Wizard stops acting.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 11:57 AM
What if one cabal member readies actions to counterspell (with his Wishes, if need be) while the other is Locking? This is all in the surprise round, after he pops into a town they have under surveillance and they teleport in support, of course.
Rogue wizard, going into a hostile combat zone without Foresight up? Tsk tsk. There is no surprise round.


Again I remind you that Gate is not inextricably tied to Simulacrum. I understand they go well together, but it really is possible to cast one without the other.Plane Shift, Planar Binding, etc etc. There's a dozen uses, and all broken.


His contingency can only trigger from one event. If he sets it to Anchor, they can use Lock. If he sets it to Lock, they can use Anchor. Or just dispel it, or ready an action to counterspell his escape, or...
Let's say the "mayhem spell" is Summon Monster 9 (quickened via rod).

The contingency triggers on the completion of "When I finish casting summon monster 9"

Now? He appears via teleport, swift action summon monster 9, and bam gone. In the space it takes to take a swift action, the entire encounter is over.

Lamech
2010-02-17, 12:07 PM
Actually, you can't get Joe the Commoner's Truename with this method - just like Legend Lore itself, it limits the acquisition of information to level 11 characters and higher.

This suggests the ritual combines the separate aspects (and restrictions) of the various component spells, rather than subsuming them into something different and unrestricted, as you are claiming.
Really? It says that where? 'Cause I don't see it under the truename section of the exhalted handbook. In fact, its easier to research Joe's true name since he only has one HD.


Commune/CoP could simply be used to vet the details of his life received through Legend Lore. "Did this event really happen?" The exact method of applying it is left up to the players' and DM's imaginations, which does not preclude LL as a source of general, non-campfire tale information.Good point.




As I told Phoenix, I agree - above a certain number of towns the cabal cannot hope to maintain adequate surveillance. How high that number is depends on how many members, agents, simulacra and other methods of gaining eyes they have.

If he wipes out enough towns, assuming no divine interference, one of two outcomes will occur - the remaining ones will lose faith in the cabal's ability to protect them and they will be forced to disband, or he will eventually pick a town that they do have protected and they will locate him, whether due to running out of towns that are not so protected, or blind chance.How would they stop him even if he did pick a protected town? Most of the good "blow stuff up spells" like fireball and meteor swarm are long, and most of the good stop the crazy wizard spells are medium or close. In fact, maximized timestop + gate + maximized empowered delayed fireballs blasts + MMM, and nothing you can do. And he can throw as many maximized timestops as he has pearls of power if he wants too, ditto on the fireballs.



If we're bringing summons and nightmares into the equation, one thing we can be sure of is that a cabal of wizards can field more of them than a lone rogue. That is why I didn't mention Gate, Binding etc.Congrats you have 1000^1000^1000 gated creatures scouring infinity. The chance of finding the wizard in 1000^1000 years is 0. Good luck. You'll need it. Sure they can stop the called creatures, but won't protect the people from nightmare spells. And nightmare can't get through mind blank.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 12:11 PM
Plane Shift, Planar Binding, etc etc. There's a dozen uses, and all broken.

You're still exclusively tying it to summoning, when it can be used just fine to clone the wizard himself.


Let's say the "mayhem spell" is Summon Monster 9 (quickened via rod).

The contingency triggers on the completion of "When I finish casting summon monster 9"

Now? He appears via teleport, swift action summon monster 9, and bam gone. In the space it takes to take a swift action, the entire encounter is over.

That's a rather poor way of causing mayhem. All the cabal has to do is bind Leonals near the towns they wish to guard. Cone-shaped Holy Word at will can handle summoned monsters.


Really? It says that where? 'Cause I don't see it under the truename section of the exhalted handbook. In fact, its easier to research Joe's true name since he only has one HD.

The Truename Research in BoED was updated in Tome of Magic:



Obscure Creatures

[...]Creatures with 10 HD or less are considered obscure unless they have historical or political importance.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 12:19 PM
Nobody else in your family has your personal truename except you.

I know. I said they were related. Which is true according to Tome of Magic, assuming Truenames and True Names are the same thing.


I never said Vision tells you where they are - it's quite clear it tells you where they were - but knowing where someone was is one way to find them, every rookie detective knows this.

I agree. You did say that Vision tells you where they are earlier in the thread, but since you've since conceded that I won't argue.


Actually, you can't get Joe the Commoner's Truename with this method - just like Legend Lore itself, it limits the acquisition of information to level 11 characters and higher.

This suggests the ritual combines the separate aspects (and restrictions) of the various component spells, rather than subsuming them into something different and unrestricted, as you are claiming.

Actually, you can find out Joe the Commoner's True Name with that method. So your suggestion is invalid. It does bypass the restrictions of Legend Lore.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 12:23 PM
I know. I said they were related. Which is true according to Tome of Magic, assuming Truenames and True Names are the same thing.

What does it matter if they are related? Oranges are related to Grapefruits, that doesn't make them the same.


Actually, you can find out Joe the Commoner's True Name with that method. So your suggestion is invalid. It does bypass the restrictions of Legend Lore.

No, you can't (see response to Lamech above.)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 12:36 PM
No, you can't (see response to Lamech above.)

And oh, look, if you're using that update, legend lore isn't even mentioned except as a DC dropper. Meaning you still can't draw conclusions about what info it gives you from that.

Oh, and you can still find out Joe Commoner's Truename if you're using legend lore. Meaning it, as in BoED, obviously ignores the normal restrictions of the spell and is hence even more irrelevant.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 12:50 PM
And oh, look, if you're using that update, legend lore isn't even mentioned except as a DC dropper. Meaning you still can't draw conclusions about what info it gives you from that.

I can still draw the same conclusion I drew from the start - that the method works regardless of whether the subject has actual legends written about them or not.


Oh, and you can still find out Joe Commoner's Truename if you're using legend lore. Meaning it, as in BoED, obviously ignores the normal restrictions of the spell and is hence even more irrelevant.

You're acting as though the two methods are somehow different, when ToM is clearly meant to just be an update. It even mentions that Truename language is the language of creation - just as in BoED - at the beginning of the Truenaming section.

Lamech
2010-02-17, 01:05 PM
The Truename Research in BoED was updated in Tome of Magic:Hmm... your completely right! ... about the rules being updated. Of course legend lore still can help find Joe the Commoner's name. The section you quoted states that people with less than ten HD can't have their true name found with out using magical divination. And it says nothing about legend lore not counting. So... ummm... legend lore still provides information about Joe and it does a rather good job of it. It in fact finds his true name better than say... a dragons. So, as BoED, tome of magic ignores the standard restriction of legend lore so tome of magic can't be used as evidence.



I can still draw the same conclusion I drew from the start - that the method works regardless of whether the subject has actual legends written about them or not. Legends=Legends Not some defenition that you want. It can only find information that at one point was a legend to some group of people. This in general is going to be very good unless someone is trying to hide some thing, and being really careful.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 01:11 PM
Legends=Legends Not some defenition that you want. It can only find information that at one point was a legend to some group of people. This in general is going to be very good unless someone is trying to hide some thing, and being really careful.

The spell explicitly gives you "even information that has never been generally known." I'm really not sure how many other ways I can say it. If it said "legends that have never been generally known" then I would cede the point, but it doesn't, so I won't.

And again, the spell defines what it considers legendary - and so does the procedure in Tome of Magic. You have two completely different sources saying the exact same thing - honestly, what more do you need?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 01:24 PM
I can still draw the same conclusion I drew from the start - that the method works regardless of whether the subject has actual legends written about them or not.

It seems we've been arguing at cross-purposes. I've never claimed that the legends had to be generally known or written down (otherwise I'd be pretty stupid, since that's against RAW), just that it'd a) have to be of a "newsworthy event" and b) that what you get is a legend - ie, fairly vague. Something that was the talk of the town would be a legend.


You're acting as though the two methods are somehow different, when ToM is clearly meant to just be an update. It even mentions that Truename language is the language of creation - just as in BoED - at the beginning of the Truenaming section.

I wasn't acting as though they're different. :smallconfused:

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 01:33 PM
You're still exclusively tying it to summoning, when it can be used just fine to clone the wizard himself.

As I said. A dozen uses, all broken.


That's a rather poor way of causing mayhem. All the cabal has to do is bind Leonals near the towns they wish to guard. Cone-shaped Holy Word at will can handle summoned monsters.
You're missing the point. You won't have enough time to stop the caster unless he chooses to give it to you.

As for summon stopping with Leonals?

That's a great idea. What happens next time when it's a Widened Circle of Death, or a Weird, or a Meteor Swarm? How will a single situational defense work? How about when the summoned creatures are Good?

How about when the wizard starts tying it to the next time he casts a quickened spell? He can have any number of spells prepped, and some bound Leonals won't work for all of them.

In other words? You can't defend against everything everywhere. He can, however, make a single mutable attack, based on the conditions when he appears, thanks to a true seeing and a greater arcane Sight.

You can't stop a scry and die, unless you can prepare the terrain beforehand. And when the list of choices is so long that you can't possibly devote much attention to everywhere?

You can't adequately prepare without simulacrum cheese. And with that, the wizard could just as easily go in with 500 of himself, on the same tactic...

In other words, simulacrum is a zero sum game. It's quite possibly the single most unbalanced spell in the game, with the possible exception of Gate.

Lamech
2010-02-17, 01:39 PM
The spell explicitly gives you "even information that has never been generally known." I'm really not sure how many other ways I can say it. If it said "legends that have never been generally known" then I would cede the point, but it doesn't, so I won't. "These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known". You seem to like this sentence lets take it apart. You don't seem to care about the bold part so lets remove it. Therefore one possiblity is "These may be even information that has never generally been known."
Now what does that mean?

Whats "These"? I'm betting its something from this "legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind" If "person, place, or things" makes no sense so "These" probably refers to "legends". Do you think it refers to something different?

Therefore we get "These legends may be even information that has never generally been known." Lets look at the next bolded part. A legend known only too say 100 people is NOT generally known, but it doesn't preclude it from being a legend.

Finally what does information mean? Information is simply some method of representing something. For example, I could store information on a computer disk. This information could be for example, a Dresden Novel, or a computer game. A magnet could then disrupt this information. Information does not imply accurate information or preclude it from being simply a legend.

So legend can still mean legend. A legend could easily be something that is a legend of a small tribe of 50 people. A family legend. But thats not something that was never known to anyone the spell could access, or something that is never represented symbolicly (words would be a symbolic representation the way I'm using it).

And again, the spell defines what it considers legendary - and so does the procedure in Tome of Magic. You have two completely different sources saying the exact same thing - honestly, what more do you need?No it doesn't. It gives a rule of tumb help determine what is probably going to be legendary. A rule of tumb is not a defenition. Tome of Magic defines obscure.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 01:45 PM
As I said. A dozen uses, all broken.

Potential for abuse does not equal abuse. There's not much my level 10 duplicate can do to actually stop a level 20 Wizard, but it can attempt to notify me/anchor him/dismiss his summons etc. It doesn't have to be all solar's eyelashes and cooperative spellcasting.

Why, I could use Gate to bring in a Leonal if I wanted. It's not the most efficient use of the spell, but not broken either.

The point being, that unless Boccob gets involved or the Wizard stops destroying towns, it will boil down to attrition eventually. If he keeps going, he'll pick a town with us in it at some point.

(I'm arguing of course from the perspective of the cabal, despite once again being more likely to favor the rogue wizard in this scenario.)

I think we're starting to go in circles though.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 01:48 PM
Potential for abuse does not equal abuse. There's not much my level 10 duplicate can do to actually stop a level 20 Wizard, but it can attempt to notify me/anchor him/dismiss his summons etc. It doesn't have to be all solar's eyelashes and cooperative spellcasting.

Why, I could use Gate to bring in a Leonal if I wanted. It's not the most efficient use of the spell, but not broken either.

The point being, that unless Boccob gets involved or the Wizard stops destroying towns, it will boil down to attrition eventually. If he keeps going, he'll pick a town with us in it at some point.

(I'm arguing of course from the perspective of the cabal, despite once again being more likely to favor the rogue wizard in this scenario.)

I think we're starting to go in circles though.

Even if he does pick a town with the Cabal in it?

Appear <via teleport>
Widened Circle of Death <quickened via rod>
Contingency Triggered, he's gone.

Blink and you miss it.

There are dozens of other spells, also. And if he can get in? He can get out a tenth of a second later, especially when any standard method of scrying the rogue autofails.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 01:55 PM
Even if he does pick a town with the Cabal in it?

Appear <via teleport>
Widened Circle of Death <quickened via rod>
Contingency Triggered, he's gone.

Blink and you miss it.

No matter how fast he is, simulacra and outsiders can still be commanded to ready actions. Eventually he's going to appear in a town within range of one.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 01:59 PM
No matter how fast he is, simulacra and outsiders can still be commanded to ready actions. Eventually he's going to appear in a town within range of one.

No, they cannot.

You can only ready actions within the initiative framework of combat. Outside, we have the chance to surprise a foe, and the fact that, before that level 10 caster has his first initiative based action in the round, he's flatfooted. Unless you also keep all your level 10 simulacrums covering thousands of cities foresighted as well.

I really like how, when the rogue caster's somewhere and enemies teleport in, they all get surprise rounds.

However, when level 10 simulacrums are in a city, they're rock solid, shielded from pre-teleport scrying, and foresighted.

Double standard, much?

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 02:10 PM
No, they cannot.

You can only ready actions within the initiative framework of combat.

That's rather abstract. So they can't ready an action until the DM's voice rings from on high that they are in combat? It seems to me that if they are expecting one - they can't really do anything else - that counts as being ready.


Outside, we have the chance to surprise a foe, and the fact that, before that level 10 caster has his first initiative based action in the round, he's flatfooted. Unless you also keep all your level 10 simulacrums covering thousands of cities foresighted as well.

Well, I did already mention - numerous times - that they couldn't feasibly cover every settlement this way.


I really like how, when the rogue caster's somewhere and enemies teleport in, they all get surprise rounds.

However, when level 10 simulacrums are in a city, they're rock solid, shielded from pre-teleport scrying, and foresighted.

Double standard, much?

Your caster didn't have a readied action for when the support would arrive - he had already used his sowing mayhem.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 02:20 PM
That's rather abstract. So they can't ready an action until the DM's voice rings from on high that they are in combat? It seems to me that if they are expecting one - they can't really do anything else - that counts as being ready.

Doesn't matter if you think it's abstract. It's how the game works. If you don't like how rooks move, don't play chess.

As for the rest?


Determine which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle. If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds of combat begin. The combatants who are aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take one action (either a standard action or a move action) during the surprise round. Combatants who were unaware do not get to act in the surprise round. If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.

Provided there's a scry of some sort prior to hot jumping in, the rogue is aware of all of the threats, whereas they are not aware of him.

Regardless of readied actions, Surprise round happens, and others are flat-footed (and thus, cannot act).

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 02:31 PM
Doesn't matter if you think it's abstract. It's how the game works. If you don't like how rooks move, don't play chess.

Good grief, you're needlessly abrasive. I happen to enjoy chess. :smallsmile:

Anyway, they don't have to mind blank all the simulacra and summons - just the one covering the area that looks wide open to our scrying friend. He'll pop in there to avoid the ones he can see.

You can also have the rest set up False Visions.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 02:39 PM
Good grief, you're needlessly abrasive. I happen to enjoy chess. :smallsmile:

Anyway, they don't have to mind blank all the simulacra and summons - just the one covering the area that looks wide open to our scrying friend. He'll pop in there to avoid the ones he can see.

You can also have the rest set up False Visions.

In which town?

Simulacrum + Mind Blank + False Visions all over the place... Hmm.

combine that vs... say...

Teleporting inside of an inn room? Towns have buildings, and buildings block LOS. I doubt that mind blanked simulacrum can do a whole heck of a lot to the guy that popped into some guy's guest bedroom. Heck, I doubt he even has a way of knowing the guy's there.

In short, you don't need 1 simulacrum to cover a town. You need dozens. And that's just for a small town. Don't even get me started on a city.

You're talking about enough simulacrums to take a wizard from level 20 to level 10... And guess what? Even so?

It's still the first round of combat. People are still flat footed (except for the rogue caster, who has foresight, of course).

Lamech
2010-02-17, 02:57 PM
There is no possible way for a cabal to stop a level 20 wizard from causing random desruction using using core spells, bar wish. First thing the wizard does is go into a MMM, at this point he will be mind blanked like any good wizard, so they have no way of knowing he's rogue. He also like any good wizard will have pearls of power and metamagic rods.

Now the rogue wizard wants to cause trouble. He casts maximized time stop. He casts gate. He throws metamagic delayed fireball blasts. If he wants more time he uses a level 9 pearl of power to get the timestop back. If he wants more fireballs he uses a level 7 pearl. (BTW metamagic doesn't change the level of the spell, funny that.) Then when he's thrown enough destruction he casts another MMM and walks in. He is never outside a MMM with out being timestopped.

Astral projection and a contingent dispel, will let him get out and about saftely. Wish of course can still throw him into a sun and probably break into the mansion.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 03:07 PM
There is no possible way for a cabal to stop a level 20 wizard from causing random desruction using using core spells, bar wish. First thing the wizard does is go into a MMM, at this point he will be mind blanked like any good wizard, so they have no way of knowing he's rogue. He also like any good wizard will have pearls of power and metamagic rods.

Now the rogue wizard wants to cause trouble. He casts maximized time stop. He casts gate. He throws metamagic delayed fireball blasts. If he wants more time he uses a level 9 pearl of power to get the timestop back. If he wants more fireballs he uses a level 7 pearl. (BTW metamagic doesn't change the level of the spell, funny that.) Then when he's thrown enough destruction he casts another MMM and walks in. He is never outside a MMM with out being timestopped.

Astral projection and a contingent dispel, will let him get out and about saftely. Wish of course can still throw him into a sun and probably break into the mansion.

Extended Time stop is better.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 03:13 PM
It's still the first round of combat. People are still flat footed (except for the rogue caster, who has foresight, of course).

If he has teleported into a False Vision, he no longer has Surprise. He is not aware of them while they are unaware of him - he merely thinks he is.

The RW is not flatfooted, but there is still a chance the others will beat his initiative.


There is no possible way for a cabal to stop a level 20 wizard from causing random desruction using using core spells, bar wish. First thing the wizard does is go into a MMM, at this point he will be mind blanked like any good wizard, so they have no way of knowing he's rogue. He also like any good wizard will have pearls of power and metamagic rods.

There is one other core spell that could work - Contact Other Plane, followed by laying an elaborate trap - but its effectiveness depends on deific (read: DM) cooperation, which we've been avoiding.

Carefully worded questions would let you know the exact spot he will be at.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 03:25 PM
If he has teleported into a False Vision, he no longer has Surprise. He is not aware of them while they are unaware of him - he merely thinks he is.How do you know? Do you have a mindblanked simulacrum in every bedroom of every town and city? This is getting more and more ridiculous.

The RW is not flatfooted, but there is still a chance the others will beat his initiative.Amazing how that happens when you can Schroedinger whatever you want.


There is one other core spell that could work - Contact Other Plane, followed by laying an elaborate trap - but its effectiveness depends on deific (read: DM) cooperation, which we've been avoiding.
Are my enemies lying in wait to ambush me at my current intended destination?

Interesting how that CoP cuts both ways, champ.


Carefully worded questions would let you know the exact spot he will be at.
You're never going to narrow down a room with a yes/no series that isn't 100% accurate.

ESPECIALLY when the other caster has divinations too. It turns into a spaghetti bowl of divination mess and nothing is right.

And COP, and simulacrum, and all these defenses? XP prohibitive.

Face it there, kemosabe. It's not happening. I don't care how carefully you word your questions. It ain't happening.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 03:35 PM
How do you know? Do you have a mindblanked simulacrum in every bedroom of every town and city? This is getting more and more ridiculous.

Not at all - False Vision doesn't require Mind Blank - and as a 5th-level spell, the simulacrums can cast it themselves.

I'm not sure why you would Mind Blank everyone anyway. You want him to see the mistaken image. One simulacrum or guardian with Mindblank is enough, so that he does not factor it into his calculations.


Are my enemies lying in wait to ambush me at my current intended destination?

Interesting how that CoP cuts both ways, champ.

Again, we're getting into the territory of which side the deity wants to help more. But even assuming a totally neutral one, the cabal can ask more questions than the Wizard can - that's a numbers game he cannot win.


You're never going to narrow down a room with a yes/no series that isn't 100% accurate.

ESPECIALLY when the other caster has divinations too. It turns into a spaghetti bowl of divination mess and nothing is right.

87% is less than a 100%, but still high enough to be worth the attempt - particularly when you can do so multiple times per hour (once per wizard) to weed out falsehoods. This, again, is something that the RW cannot do.


And COP, and simulacrum, and all these defenses? XP prohibitive.

With a pile of wizards, there is XP to spread out.


Face it there, kemosabe. It's not happening. I don't care how carefully you word your questions. It ain't happening.

Actually, there is an 87% chance of it happening.

Lamech
2010-02-17, 03:45 PM
Extended Time stop is better.

Nope. Something with an erratic duration is quite problematic if we need carefully timed fireball blasts. There is a chance you die if your not timestopped.


There is one other core spell that could work - Contact Other Plane, followed by laying an elaborate trap - but its effectiveness depends on deific (read: DM) cooperation, which we've been avoiding.And this trap is? A CoP spell and what not can determine if he is about to gate into an area he can't escape, with a good degree of certainty. And with multiple castings its likes, really really high. Although with the multiple castings of CoP and seeing into the future and attempts to avoid the future we get a paradox.

Hmm... high level wizards fighting destroys the universe!

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 04:22 PM
Not at all - False Vision doesn't require Mind Blank - and as a 5th-level spell, the simulacrums can cast it themselves.

I'm not sure why you would Mind Blank everyone anyway. You want him to see the mistaken image. One simulacrum or guardian with Mindblank is enough, so that he does not factor it into his calculations.Why, simple, of course. Let's assume in a city of 1000, there are a total of 1500 rooms (not all of which are bedrooms). Let's assume those rooms are in 200 buildings, which have a total of 100 alleys.

Now, 1500 rooms and 100 alleys need a simulacrum in them, at 1000 xp a piece. For this one town, we're up to 1.6 million xp.

Rogue Wizard? Greater Scrying, at which time all detects get put through and concentrated on.

Whoops. So much for False Vision.

Remember, Op. The Rogue mage does this two to four times a year. He can afford to be crazy prepared and try again and again.

Heck, from there, he can teleport invisible to somewhere well outside of town (and in the air, say 400 feet) with no intention to attack, and use greater prying eyes to scout out the city. (with a contingency up, of course, that any other casters within 350 feet would trigger.)

There are so many things a crazy prepared wizard can do that cannot be prepared against.

Again, we're getting into the territory of which side the deity wants to help more. But even assuming a totally neutral one, the cabal can ask more questions than the Wizard can - that's a numbers game he cannot win.Wrong, but thanks for playing. It's not a matter of "wants" to help. 87%. And last I checked, there was more than one deity. Might I remind you that NO deity wants to receive a CoP.

87% is less than a 100%, but still high enough to be worth the attempt - particularly when you can do so multiple times per hour (once per wizard) to weed out falsehoods. This, again, is something that the RW cannot do. Hardly. You try that spell multiple times per hour, and you'll generally end up with, before long, a bunch of catatonic casters.

I'm telling you, you're overlooking so dang many things, and then magically adding them whenever I point out one of the many, many, MANY flaws in your concept.

So I'm done. You're not taking it seriously.

Bankrolling millions of XP, ignoring spells, abilities, RULES, in favor of what you want, saying that "it'd be done, with specific questions" without mentioning HOW.... And when you have one question dependent on the next, both need to be correct for the final answer to be right. Now, the 200-300 questions you'd need to ask to narrow it down to one room?

Odds of that one are... 0.87^200, or (0.0000000000801%). How many casts did you have again? because a billion of those 200 cast sequences would then give you a 1% or so chance of getting all 200 right, to get the right answer.

How'd I get 200? Well, I pulled it from the same place as your entire argument. Opinion.


With a pile of wizards, there is XP to spread out.1.6 MILLION.

MILLION. Even with a hundred wizards, that's all their XP from level 20 to almost 21.


Actually, there is an 87% chance of it happening.
If you believe that, I've got lakefront property in florida to sell you.

Tell you what. You bring something to the table other than, "uh, uh, it'd happen cause these guys would come up with the perfect questions..."

and maaaaybe we'll talk. Until then, I've got no time for your conjecture that's based far more on your personal fantasies than any actual grasp of the rules.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 04:26 PM
Nope. Something with an erratic duration is quite problematic if we need carefully timed fireball blasts. There is a chance you die if your not timestopped.

And this trap is? A CoP spell and what not can determine if he is about to gate into an area he can't escape, with a good degree of certainty. And with multiple castings its likes, really really high. Although with the multiple castings of CoP and seeing into the future and attempts to avoid the future we get a paradox.

Hmm... high level wizards fighting destroys the universe!

If we're going and doing all that, how about just teleport a Ring Gate there, lob a disjunction through it, and come in to a disjoined illusion and some snow?

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 05:16 PM
Rogue Wizard? Greater Scrying, at which time all detects get put through and concentrated on.

Whoops. So much for False Vision.
...
Remember, Op. The Rogue mage does this two to four times a year. He can afford to be crazy prepared and try again and again.

Heck, from there, he can teleport invisible to somewhere well outside of town (and in the air, say 400 feet) with no intention to attack, and use greater prying eyes to scout out the city. (with a contingency up, of course, that any other casters within 350 feet would trigger.)

I'm not sure "being within 350 feet of me" is a valid condition that affects the caster.

Anyway, there's an easy way around True Seeing - Invisible Spell.

"Those with detect magic, see invisibility or true seeing active will instead see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell."

An Invisible False Image pierced by True Seeing shows a False Image, by RAW. An Invisible Veil (centered on a cabalist) or Invisible Hallucinatory Terrain can fool Greater Prying Eyes under the same principle.

Once he has false or conflicting information of any kind, he'll be less crazy prepared and closer to just crazy.


There are so many things a crazy prepared wizard can do that cannot be prepared against.

Please note that I agree with this, but not with the premise that one crazy prepared wizard will always beat many crazy prepared wizards.


Wrong, but thanks for playing. It's not a matter of "wants" to help. 87%. And last I checked, there was more than one deity. Might I remind you that NO deity wants to receive a CoP.Hardly. You try that spell multiple times per hour, and you'll generally end up with, before long, a bunch of catatonic casters.

Well, "want" does indeed factor into it - it can be blocked - so the question is which side, if any, he will choose to oppose.

There is more than one deity, but typically only one main deity of magic (the one that can predict spellcasting weeks in advance.) If that one does not take a side, the odds still favor the cabal - the same chance of catatonia, misinformation etc. applies to the rogue, but he has less chances to get right answers than they do.


Bankrolling millions of XP, ignoring spells, abilities, RULES, in favor of what you want, saying that "it'd be done, with specific questions" without mentioning HOW.... And when you have one question dependent on the next, both need to be correct for the final answer to be right. Now, the 200-300 questions you'd need to ask to narrow it down to one room?

Odds of that one are... 0.87^200, or (0.0000000000801%). How many casts did you have again? because a billion of those 200 cast sequences would then give you a 1% or so chance of getting all 200 right, to get the right answer.

How'd I get 200? Well, I pulled it from the same place as your entire argument. Opinion.

You're exaggerating just a little here. Let's say the cabal divides every city under their control into quadrants, every quadrant into lettered districts, and every district has 10 buildings a piece, numbered ascending in distance from the center of town.

"Which city will he appear in next?" (Littleton.)
"Which quadrant of that city will he appear in?" (Northeast.)
"Which lettered district of that quadrant?" ("A.")
"Which building in that district?" ("8")
"What floor of that building?" ("Third.")
"East side of the staircase, or West?" ("East")

I've already narrowed it down from the entire city to half a floor with just 6 questions. Set up an AMF and watch the show. To save time and ensure correctness, have 2-5 more Wizards question the same deity - when the trance ends, compare notes.


1.6 MILLION.

MILLION. Even with a hundred wizards, that's all their XP from level 20 to almost 21.

If you believe that, I've got lakefront property in florida to sell you.

CoP has no XP cost. And once you know which city he's hitting next, how many simulacra will you really need?


I'm telling you, you're overlooking so dang many things, and then magically adding them whenever I point out one of the many, many, MANY flaws in your concept.

So I'm done. You're not taking it seriously.
...
Tell you what. You bring something to the table other than, "uh, uh, it'd happen cause these guys would come up with the perfect questions..."

and maaaaybe we'll talk. Until then, I've got no time for your conjecture that's based far more on your personal fantasies than any actual grasp of the rules.

Yeesh. It's just a game! No need to get huffy :smallsmile:
If you want to break off the discussion, I'm fine with that.

olentu
2010-02-17, 06:03 PM
I'm not sure "being within 350 feet of me" is a valid condition that affects the caster.

Anyway, there's an easy way around True Seeing - Invisible Spell.

"Those with detect magic, see invisibility or true seeing active will instead see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell."

An Invisible False Image pierced by True Seeing shows a False Image, by RAW. An Invisible Veil (centered on a cabalist) or Invisible Hallucinatory Terrain can fool Greater Prying Eyes under the same principle.

Once he has false or conflicting information of any kind, he'll be less crazy prepared and closer to just crazy.

Well while invisible is not in core I suppose it could be somewhat confusing as the caster would both see the false image and see through the false image at the same time. But then again as true seeing does not remove normal vision in the first place it is quite possible that it would look no different then what one normally sees when looking at an illusion with true seeing active.

But in any case the fact that invisible spell is not a core feat means this does not really matter to the discussion at hand.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 06:07 PM
That is quite true, and a restriction I had forgotten. So I guess False Vision doesn't help much unless the simulacra are Mind Blanked as well to prevent them from being Greater Scryed upon.

Not that the wizards wouldn't go this far in at least one town (ideally, the one they would know he was going to attack), but we have long since passed the point of silliness here.

taltamir
2010-02-17, 06:51 PM
your 20th level rogue wizard should be living in his own demiplane created via genesis...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

Such a demiplane is impenetrable to anyone the owner does not wish to allow in. In fact, EVEN deities are incapable of breaching it.

Lamech
2010-02-17, 08:07 PM
Why exactly is such a plane impenetrable?

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-18, 08:27 AM
Anyway, there's an easy way around True Seeing - Invisible Spell.Bear in mind, Detect Magic will still detect a magic aura. And since it requires 3 rounds to get the information, for the first 2? They see the invisible spell.

Not to mention that's attempting to use the Invisible Spell feat in a way that's clearly not intended. Yes, the caster WILL see the "normal manifestation of the spell". That normal manifestation being a Major Image. Guess what? True seeing sees through that. Detect Magic gets a magic ping on that. Still fails, sorry.


Please note that I agree with this, but not with the premise that one crazy prepared wizard will always beat many crazy prepared wizards.Incorrect. The many have to do something different than the one. Something that you've guaranteed will leave the vast majority of them unable to cast for weeks at a time.


Well, "want" does indeed factor into it - it can be blocked - so the question is which side, if any, he will choose to oppose.Choice in blocking is, again, DM Fiat. Honestly, can you get through one post without directly requiring the DM intervene to help you?


There is more than one deity, but typically only one main deity of magic (the one that can predict spellcasting weeks in advance.) If that one does not take a side, the odds still favor the cabal - the same chance of catatonia, misinformation etc. applies to the rogue, but he has less chances to get right answers than they do.Yes, but the deity of War will predict conflict.
The deity of trickery will predict deception.
There's more than one thing, ya know.

Not to mention? What you've just stated? Doesn't Matter. 87%. Regardless of any other predictions, justifications, or the like, whether it's the God of rogue wizard spellcasting or the god of turnips, it has (RAW for Contact Other Plane) and 87% chance of knowing the answer. This means that if you ask the god of magic about a spell that's cast tomorrow? He has a 13% chance of not giving the correct answer.


You're exaggerating just a little here. Let's say the cabal divides every city under their control into quadrants, every quadrant into lettered districts, and every district has 10 buildings a piece, numbered ascending in distance from the center of town.

"Which city will he appear in next?" (Littleton.)
Littleton or New Littleton?

"Which quadrant of that city will he appear in?" (Northeast.)
"Which lettered district of that quadrant?" ("A.")or "Third". You just don't know which of the districts it considers first, second, or third.


"Which building in that district?" ("8")or "Bar", referring to one of the three taverns that has a bar.

"What floor of that building?" ("Third.")
"East side of the staircase, or West?" ("East")

I've already narrowed it down from the entire city to half a floor with just 6 questions. Set up an AMF and watch the show. To save time and ensure correctness, have 2-5 more Wizards question the same deity - when the trance ends, compare notes.And your odds of getting a straight answer in all of that? 43%.

Even with 5 other wizards? By the odds? 2 will lose casting for weeks, and of those remaining? 1 will have the right answer. Good luck with that. And that's only 6 questions. You need 10, say, to get more information on the town, the building, or the like? 24% odds. Every question makes it harder.


CoP has no XP cost. And once you know which city he's hitting next, how many simulacra will you really need?Once you know, being operative. And the failure rate meaning that the wizard in question loses casting for 5 weeks, and has say, a 1 in 4 failure rate (assuming a +10 int mod).

In other words? Even with CoP? You're picking a needle out of a haystack.

There's a hundred ways this could be defeated. The least of which is... the wizard not "appearing" at all, but hiring someone to carry a Ring Gate in, through which he casts (from a random location somewhere within 100 miles of the town).

By the way? If you really want to stick to that invisible spell nonsense? Superior Invisibility, and Invisible Spell Superior Invisibility. You can't now possibly detect the wizard when he appears.

Which, again, you don't know when.

Honestly, there are more holes in your theory than in a swiss cheese sandwich on a rusted table. You're relying on DM fiat to give you exactly the information you want. That's a dangerous assumption to start with.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 09:33 AM
As the rogue wizard, striking against the cabal, those simulacra would be naught but fodder. A level 10 wizard stands no real chance against a level 20 wizard with surprise.

My spells are replaced for free. Simulacra are replaced by XP expenditure. I could easily impose a real, ongoing cost to the cabal merely for them continuing to fight me. This is, of course, in addition to the obvious publicity benefits of publicily wreaking havoc, which would no doubt happen as a side effect.

Not to mention, a level 20 wizard properly built has a crapton of spells. Enough to kill quite a few level 10 wizards safely. If you rely on putting them everywhere, that makes finding them easy. If you don't bother to gear them, it further increases the power discrepancy between me and them. If you do, I get great, useful loot.

For example, unless they have death ward up, any fort save targetting SoD will be nearly guaranteed to work. Any damage spell will do a minimum of 20(+ cl boosters)d6 dmg. They have a whopping 10 d4s +con. One orb can one shot them with ease.

You're relying on blowing tons of xp for something with no real power other than sending you a warning. Assuming they live long enough to do so, which is very doubtful.

Lamech
2010-02-18, 10:21 AM
Littleton or New Littleton?or "Third". You just don't know which of the districts it considers first, second, or third.
or "Bar", referring to one of the three taverns that has a bar.And your odds of getting a straight answer in all of that? 43%.

Even with 5 other wizards? By the odds? 2 will lose casting for weeks, and of those remaining? 1 will have the right answer. Good luck with that. And that's only 6 questions. You need 10, say, to get more information on the town, the building, or the like? 24% odds. Every question makes it harder.
Once you know, being operative. And the failure rate meaning that the wizard in question loses casting for 5 weeks, and has say, a 1 in 4 failure rate (assuming a +10 int mod).

In other words? Even with CoP? You're picking a needle out of a haystack.Yeah see the thing is its really easy to make that check almost unfailable even using core only. First lets polymorph into a great gold wyrm. Thats 32 intelligence. And since you are the same species (interbreeding means same species) your obviously the same kingdom, class and presumably related. So its permenant, although 20 minutes is plenty of time regardless. Throw on a +2 inherent bonus and a +6 enchantment bonus and you can't fail the check. The wizards all cast the spell at the same time, nothing precludes the wizards from all casting the spell at the same time, and talking with each other.

CoP is stuipidly powerful. Really stuipidly powerful. Of course the rogue wizard can use it too, so its a push.





My spells are replaced for free. Simulacra are replaced by XP expenditure. I could easily impose a real, ongoing cost to the cabal merely for them continuing to fight me. This is, of course, in addition to the obvious publicity benefits of publicily wreaking havoc, which would no doubt happen as a side effect.Yeah, one more problem with Simulacra... in fact unless they all get mind blanked nightmare spells can pop them one after another, with any risk what so ever to the rogue.

Kallisti
2010-02-18, 10:25 AM
The level 20 wizard thread again? :smallsigh:Old thread is old.

I'm pretty sure the standard conclusion is either "Everyone in this thread is a total jerk, and I'm right and they're wrong" or "the only thing that can beat a sufficiently paranoid wizard is a wizard of equal level or higher, because the design team goofed up, but it doesn't really matter because anyone who pulls that kind of shenanigans in a game has problems that go far beyond game design errors."

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-18, 10:31 AM
The level 20 wizard thread again? :smallsigh:Old thread is old.

I'm pretty sure the standard conclusion is either "Everyone in this thread is a total jerk, and I'm right and they're wrong" or "the only thing that can beat a sufficiently paranoid wizard is a wizard of equal level or higher, because the design team goofed up, but it doesn't really matter because anyone who pulls that kind of shenanigans in a game has problems that go far beyond game design errors."

It's not quite that. See, the rules of the game favor anti-detection over detection. It's not a matter of "beating" a wizard. It's a matter of "finding" that wizard.

And, inside of core? Just not possible.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 12:13 PM
It's not quite that. See, the rules of the game favor anti-detection over detection. It's not a matter of "beating" a wizard. It's a matter of "finding" that wizard.

And, inside of core? Just not possible.

This is the interesting bit. It's not so much the actual beatdown combat, but the strategic level.

It's possible to find the wizard...but not infalliably by magical means...you need to resort to good ol' detective style work, which is probably best, as it leads to more interesting campaigns.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-18, 12:18 PM
This is the interesting bit. It's not so much the actual beatdown combat, but the strategic level.

It's possible to find the wizard...but not infalliably by magical means...you need to resort to good ol' detective style work, which is probably best, as it leads to more interesting campaigns.

Well, that style of play could be facilitated. Bombs in the form of ring gates (one time use if followed with a disjunction to the other side, nullifying the gate)

Constantly changing cast sites, real cloak and dagger style stuff. But then we're to the real world concept of detective work. You can only work with what you're given. It relies on the rogue wizard's error. The equivalent of modern forensics (magic) is severely limited, so information gathering techniques are behind information limiting techniques.

Lysander
2010-02-18, 01:23 PM
Here's a question. Do we all accept that a deity of sufficiently high rank could bypass Mind Blank?

If that's the case there's an obvious way the wizards can bypass Mind Blank: bind and hold a deity of sufficiently high rank captive for use as a wizard-hunting oracle.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-18, 01:39 PM
Here's a question. Do we all accept that a deity of sufficiently high rank could bypass Mind Blank?

If that's the case there's an obvious way the wizards can bypass Mind Blank: bind and hold a deity of sufficiently high rank captive for use as a wizard-hunting oracle.

Simple, really. And this would have no chance of failure, given that deities aren't statted out, only their avatars.

Lysander
2010-02-18, 01:53 PM
Simple, really. And this would have no chance of failure, given that deities aren't statted out, only their avatars.

Those wizards better get started researching their deity-capturing ritual.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-18, 02:24 PM
Those wizards better get started researching their deity-capturing ritual.

During which time, the rogue caster researches a Cabal-killing ritual?

Lysander
2010-02-18, 02:32 PM
During which time, the rogue caster researches a Cabal-killing ritual?

He can't research a ritual because he's just one guy.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-18, 02:52 PM
He can't research a ritual because he's just one guy.

Well, all the cool kids seem to be using simulacrums these days, lol.