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View Full Version : Finding an Alternate Penalty Instead of XP for Item Creation



Satyrus
2010-02-12, 12:37 PM
So the root of my problem is that I don't like using XP, at all, it's annoying to keep track of, I like to keep parties at the same level, and when trying to use XP I've found players level-up much more quickly that I was expecting throwing off any future encounters I had planned.

So the question came up, how do I create magic items or cast spells with XP costs if there is no XP?

I tried using, what I now see, was an ill-concieved alternate method where based on the amount of XP that would have been lost the spellcaster would lose a certain number of spell slots for a number of days that was based on the attribute his casting depended on. The problem with this is that there's really no reason for a caster to not just make tons of magic items and then just sit around and wait for their spells to recharge.

I guess I should also add that for classes without spells that consumed XP, kensai, they would lose Base Attack Bonus in a similar manner.

So does anybody use, know of, or have ideas for an alternate crafting method that doesn't use XP and has at least some consequence for the player?

Thanks:smallbiggrin:

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 12:43 PM
Our group levels when appropriate, but we've concocted an item known as an experience shard. Bonus XP is stored within, and everyone recieves some at each level.

We use cooperative crafting rules as well, so the ranger can give his shard to the artificer to help defray XP costs.

Lysander
2010-02-12, 12:45 PM
So instead of using xp to level them up you level them up at the speed of plot? Why not do the same with items? Allow people to craft items needed by the party, but only allow them to make a small number of items each level.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-12, 12:48 PM
So the root of my problem is that I don't like using XP, at all, it's annoying to keep track of, I like to keep parties at the same level, and when trying to use XP I've found players level-up much more quickly that I was expecting throwing off any future encounters I had planned.

So the question came up, how do I create magic items or cast spells with XP costs if there is no XP?"Want to cast that Permanency? Fine. You will level up two game sessions after everyone else in the group"

lesser_minion
2010-02-12, 12:52 PM
A simpler method might be to just award players some "spending XP" with each level (I got ninja'd with that suggestion, apparently).

You could also convert an XP cost into some kind of "rare component" cost and award small amounts of rare components as part of an adventure.

Both of those do their jobs pretty well, get around any sort of XP cheese, and don't have players lagging behind in level because they helped someone else.

Lapak
2010-02-12, 01:04 PM
So instead of using xp to level them up you level them up at the speed of plot? Why not do the same with items? Allow people to craft items needed by the party, but only allow them to make a small number of items each level.I was thinking something similar, in terms of replacing XP costs with time for crafting. Rather than vague, though, make it both precise and significant: 1 day per 100xp (or 25xp, or whatever, or measure it in weeks.)

It means that they'll only be crafting in downtime. Whipping out a CL1 scroll isn't that bad (could be done in a few hours at day/100xp), but putting together a Monk's Belt means a little time. Throwing together a Holy Avenger could take anywhere from a month and a half (at day/100xp) to almost two years (at week/50xp). Just set the cost depending on how fast-moving your campaign is, and you'll be good to go.

EDIT: Oh yeah. For spellcasting, maybe replace XP with Constitution burn. 1 point per 100 xp cost, maybe? Though that makes Wish pretty much impossible. I don't have a list of 'spells with XP costs and what the cost is' handy to get a gauge for how high the burn should be.

Satyrus
2010-02-12, 01:47 PM
Wow wasn't expeting so many responses so quickly, thanks.


So instead of using xp to level them up you level them up at the speed of plot? Why not do the same with items? Allow people to craft items needed by the party, but only allow them to make a small number of items each level.

They leveled with the plot generally yes. The problem with is that what the party "needs" is highly variable and often excessive in my opinion. That said the idea of making the the amount of XP equate to time in days or more is intriguing for sure. It would certainly keep the players under pressure to not sit around for years till they finally have all the items they want. Then the only people who could relaistically pump out magic items would be high-level retired adventurers.

Constitution burn not so hot on, casters are squishy enough though maybe using strength or another physical score till it hits zero and they're effectively exhausted until some are regained? A cleric could fix that pretty fast though...


Our group levels when appropriate, but we've concocted an item known as an experience shard. Bonus XP is stored within, and everyone recieves some at each level.

We use cooperative crafting rules as well, so the ranger can give his shard to the artificer to help defray XP costs.

Silverstar could you expand on the cooperative crafting rules you use?
Like how you get that bonus XP for example?


You could also convert an XP cost into some kind of "rare component" cost and award small amounts of rare components as part of an adventure.

An interesting proposition, I don't think too many spells require XP components so at least for those it wouldn't be too difficult.

For Item creation that's a little more difficult though I suppose you could have some kind of material that has to be used as a conduit between the crafter and the item and is used up.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-12, 01:51 PM
EDIT: Oh yeah. For spellcasting, maybe replace XP with Constitution burn. 1 point per 100 xp cost, maybe? Though that makes Wish pretty much impossible. I don't have a list of 'spells with XP costs and what the cost is' handy to get a gauge for how high the burn should be.

While it provides neat flavor, that solution results in the same problem as spell slots. The casters can create a bunch of magic items, and wait for their Con damage to heal. If this ability burn resulted in Con drain, rather than Con damage, that would result in some other problems (creating magic items would be a massive burden to the caster. how do undead make magic items?).

The Book of Vile Darkness says that souls can be used for item creation (each one is worth 10 XP), though the process taints the item with everlasting evil. You don't necessarily have to take this dark route to use the mechanics. You could come up with some other magical energy source (crystals, special components) that have to be collected and harvested for magic item creation. However, you'd need to make sure collecting the special material isn't taking up too much of the adventuring time.

Oh, and According to various DnD sourcebooks (can't list any off the top of my head) 1 XP is equal to 5 GP. (So a soul is worth 50 GP? Man, all those fiends people sell their souls to are getting ripped off!)

I have a similar problem with the XP cost of item creation. I'm working on hi-tech items for my sci-fi/fantasy setting Breakdown. They're going to be based on the magic item system, but XP cost doesn't fit the flavor at all. I'm thinking of ruling that these each of the permanent tech items is powered by a miniature (perpetual motion?) generator, and the cost of said generator is equal to the XP cost x 5. Limited use tech items have a power cell that costs XP cost x 5.

lesser_minion
2010-02-12, 01:57 PM
Constitution burn is a specific type of constitution damage that can't be healed magically.

Remember that handing out components isn't really a problem - players can find them as needed, and they can seek out components if they really want a magic item.

Yakk
2010-02-12, 02:08 PM
Residuum. Certain organs of magical beasts can be distilled into it (Knowledge or Spellcraft check to find them), and it forms naturally in certain spots.

Residuum is used to make magical items. It requires 1 unit of Residuum per gp of mundane ingredients. There generally isn't much of a market in Residuum, because one of the problems with it is that it "sticks" to living beings (and especially intelligent beings), which makes trading in it result in you being a good being to harvest Residuum from.

You can break down magic items into Residuum with an efficiency approaching 50% of their market value if you are desperate, but this tends to make the mundane part of the magic item relatively worthless.

SilverStar
2010-02-12, 02:14 PM
For cooperative crafting, the character with the creation feat must supply 25% of the XP required; the rest can come from one or more allies. Exchange must be willing. Bonus XP is level dependent; we play high epic, and as such like to have enough for wish and whatnot every now and then. A good guideline is 50-100xp per character level, which can be saved or spent as needed.

Satyrus
2010-02-12, 02:14 PM
Constitution burn is a specific type of constitution damage that can't be healed magically.

Remember that handing out components isn't really a problem - players can find them as needed, and they can seek out components if they really want a magic item.

Where book or other source are the burn rules from?


Residuum. Certain organs of magical beasts can be distilled into it (Knowledge or Spellcraft check to find them), and it forms naturally in certain spots.

Residuum is used to make magical items. It requires 1 unit of Residuum per gp of mundane ingredients. There generally isn't much of a market in Residuum, because one of the problems with it is that it "sticks" to living beings (and especially intelligent beings), which makes trading in it result in you being a good being to harvest Residuum from.

You can break down magic items into Residuum with an efficiency approaching 50% of their market value if you are desperate, but this tends to make the mundane part of the magic item relatively worthless.

The bolded part made me laugh, I like it. :smallsmile:

I think that idea has a lot of potential, I think using it instead of XP would require making the residuum cost relative to the XP cost and maybe the cost of the spells needed to create the item. Don't have nay books in front of me though to pull numbers out of, hmm...


For cooperative crafting, the character with the creation feat must supply 25% of the XP required; the rest can come from one or more allies. Exchange must be willing. Bonus XP is level dependent; we play high epic, and as such like to have enough for wish and whatnot every now and then. A good guideline is 50-100xp per character level, which can be saved or spent as needed.

OK thanks maybe a dice roll between 50 and 100 would be useful in determining bonus XP. Again I need to look at books to get XP costs on things.

lesser_minion
2010-02-12, 02:17 PM
Where book or other source are the burn rules from?

Expanded Psionics Handbook, and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn)

Satyrus
2010-02-12, 02:19 PM
Ah, I don't use psionics so that's why I didn't know about it. Thanks for the link.

Lapak
2010-02-12, 03:46 PM
While it provides neat flavor, that solution results in the same problem as spell slots. The casters can create a bunch of magic items, and wait for their Con damage to heal. If this ability burn resulted in Con drain, rather than Con damage, that would result in some other problems (creating magic items would be a massive burden to the caster. how do undead make magic items?).That's why I offered one alternate cost for items (time) and another for spellcasting (CON burn.)

Since burn can't be healed quickly, and causes an immediate handicap without immediately killing the caster, I feel it's a good compromise for casting. Time is time; if item creation takes a while then it will be held pretty well in check.

Cataphract
2010-02-12, 04:29 PM
Go the AD&D route.

That's simple: For each item they want, write down a number of components that make sense and are difficult to harvest, and make quests out of it. They could fight for them, trade for them, steal them, harvest them, whatever- but it takes time, effort, and in the end, you're the one handing them out as you see fit.

Like side-quests that don't forward the plot.

sigurd
2010-02-12, 04:57 PM
Give every character the total of their craft skill in points each level. The can spend these in making a number of items. Encourage them to pool their abilities.

How you set these costs will depend somewhat on the players you have and will be the real challenge.

Sigurd

Barbarian MD
2010-02-12, 05:13 PM
My DM levels everyone after each chapter in the story. He gives bonus awards (in the form of XP, gold, feats, or skill points--often our choice) as incentive to those players who roleplay well, who one-shot bad guys, who solve problems, etc. It works pretty well. He gave me 5% XP as a bonus for drawing and posting a picture, which perfectly defrayed the cost of a permanencied enlarge person. Another character saves up his bonuses (boni?). He's currently got a bonus 85% towards his next level, so eventually he'll be 1 level higher than us. Everyone can choose to spend their bonuses as we want, and so everyone's happy.

Draz74
2010-02-12, 05:49 PM
My last DM gave the item crafter a negative level for a period of in-game time after they crafted something. For a weak routine item like a Blessed Bandage or Potion of Cure Light Wounds, it might just be a few hours. For most things it was at least a day. For really powerful items, it might be two or three negative levels (which would wear off gradually).

It wasn't very formulaic; he determined the penalties and durations on a case-by-case basis according to whatever he felt was fair at the moment.

I've also considered an alternative method where there's a limited number of items a caster can craft per in-game year or something. Definitely favors the long-lived races towards item crafting.

Doppelganger
2010-02-12, 07:10 PM
I like the negative level system, it realy shows how the caster is pouring their life into it, but they slowly regenerate their powers.

So, maybe 1 level for every two weeks of crafting time, which are gained one per two weeks, and dissipate over an equal period?

Oh yes, and there is no penalty for making scrolls/potions except that you have to wait # of spell levels stored days between each? - 1/2 unmodified caster level.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-13, 07:58 PM
Residuum. Certain organs of magical beasts can be distilled into it (Knowledge or Spellcraft check to find them)
Why does that remind me of little sisters in Bioshock?


For each item they want, write down a number of components that make sense and are difficult to harvest, and make quests out of it. They could fight for them, trade for them, steal them, harvest them, whatever- but it takes time, effort, and in the end, you're the one handing them out as you see fit.
While that makes a lot more sense than the usual 3.5 method, couldn't it result in holding the story back too much?

Zexion
2010-02-13, 08:03 PM
What's wrong with EXP costs? I guess you could also use gold or Reputation or a contact, but... I really don't see the problem. You want a sword that is on fire, you have to "give it energy" to make it work. That energy is EXP.

Solaris
2010-02-13, 09:28 PM
Go the AD&D route.

That's simple: For each item they want, write down a number of components that make sense and are difficult to harvest, and make quests out of it. They could fight for them, trade for them, steal them, harvest them, whatever- but it takes time, effort, and in the end, you're the one handing them out as you see fit.

Like side-quests that don't forward the plot.

Wait, that was ever not the default plan? What's happened to people? Have they gone mad?

Agi Hammerthief
2010-02-13, 10:03 PM
if you don't want the players having to spend their own XP (for whatever reason) you could calculate the XP that where required to create items found as standard treasure throughout the campaign.

whenever the party sells items they gain double the XP "contained" in those items as spending XP (compensating for only receiving half the value in GP)

or just generally give them the half GP they don't get when selling loot as item creation XP

deuxhero
2010-02-13, 11:11 PM
One online article adds a system that let's you pay for 1 xp with 5gp (which is standard throughout the system anyways, the article just explicitly let's you do it). Problem solved.

Satyrus
2010-02-14, 12:01 AM
What's wrong with EXP costs? I guess you could also use gold or Reputation or a contact, but... I really don't see the problem. You want a sword that is on fire, you have to "give it energy" to make it work. That energy is EXP.

OK first thing, the thread is Finding an Alternate Penalty Instead of XP for Item Creation so please no comments like this, they accomplish nothing.





For each item they want, write down a number of components that make sense and are difficult to harvest, and make quests out of it. They could fight for them, trade for them, steal them, harvest them, whatever- but it takes time, effort, and in the end, you're the one handing them out as you see fit.

While that makes a lot more sense than the usual 3.5 method, couldn't it result in holding the story back too much?

Wait, that was ever not the default plan? What's happened to people? Have they gone mad?

While giving sidequests to go find random stuff for magic items is fun it does generally bog down the campaign, and when I'm trying to squish campaigns into weekly meeting in a single semester or maybe two time becomes an issue.:smallannoyed:


Give every character the total of their craft skill in points each level. The can spend these in making a number of items. Encourage them to pool their abilities.

How you set these costs will depend somewhat on the players you have and will be the real challenge.

Simple and general very nice but you're definitely right about setting the exchange rate being tricky.


My DM levels everyone after each chapter in the story. He gives bonus awards (in the form of XP, gold, feats, or skill points--often our choice) as incentive to those players who roleplay well, who one-shot bad guys, who solve problems, etc. It works pretty well. He gave me 5% XP as a bonus for drawing and posting a picture, which perfectly defrayed the cost of a permanencied enlarge person. Another character saves up his bonuses (boni?). He's currently got a bonus 85% towards his next level, so eventually he'll be 1 level higher than us. Everyone can choose to spend their bonuses as we want, and so everyone's happy.

That does sound pretty fun, and I do already try to reward those players who roleplay and keep themselves actively involved ICly. I think I got turned off to doing it too much though because the only other example of it I've seen used was horribly twisted so that it encouraged intra-party strife. Might try and figure out some guidelines about how this works, maybe combo it with some other ideas here.


My last DM gave the item crafter a negative level for a period of in-game time after they crafted something. For a weak routine item like a Blessed Bandage or Potion of Cure Light Wounds, it might just be a few hours. For most things it was at least a day. For really powerful items, it might be two or three negative levels (which would wear off gradually).

It wasn't very formulaic; he determined the penalties and durations on a case-by-case basis according to whatever he felt was fair at the moment.

I've also considered an alternative method where there's a limited number of items a caster can craft per in-game year or something. Definitely favors the long-lived races towards item crafting.

If I don't get a formula for something like this I'm afraid I'll get all inconsistent and the players will get annoyed. Although the idea of the caster not knowing exactly when his powers would be restored would definitely keep them iffy about making items.

Number of items per year is something I though about too, my main issue is I like an in-game reason for these things and finding a good one for something like that hasn't come to me yet.


I like the negative level system, it realy shows how the caster is pouring their life into it, but they slowly regenerate their powers.

So, maybe 1 level for every two weeks of crafting time, which are gained one per two weeks, and dissipate over an equal period?

Oh yes, and there is no penalty for making scrolls/potions except that you have to wait # of spell levels stored days between each? - 1/2 unmodified caster level.

I definitely agree that flavor-wise losing a level is great. The problem is with any time limit that isn't very excessive players are apt to sit around and wait if they aren't actively pressed for time. Penalties that are forced to make a difference to the active part of the game are better I think.

Will get to the last couple later, actual work needs to be done.:smallyuk:

Cataphract
2010-02-14, 05:31 AM
Wait, that was ever not the default plan? What's happened to people? Have they gone mad?

Wake up and smell the roses.

Nowadays you need a pile of swag, a bunch of XP, and a few days.

@OP:
If time is a concern, think how important it is for them to actually craft those items. If it's not important flavour wise (what's the difference between getting a gauntlets of ogre power and making them yourself?) then just let them buy it or give it to them or something.

For the really important items, or if you want crafting to be a big part of your game, just give out souls/crystals/experience shards/whatever, a currency that will change XP. You give out as much as you want, and there's your alternate penalty. You just trade MORE loot instead of XP.

TheLash
2010-02-14, 04:47 PM
Our group gives XP for doing that. What cost us all is getting the components for the item.

AsuroftheStair
2010-02-15, 11:49 AM
I also like negative levels, and see that players waiting it out could be a problem. You could say that times of stress cave in the character's sense of resolve, but stress is the only way that casters can move forward afterwords. Thus, to be able to get over the negative level by adventuring for a certain number of days (or have a certain number of rounds of combat).
If the caster created a good or evil item, then only fights against agents of other powers apply for trying to erase the negative level.

Does anyone know if burning the primary casting score (like wizards burning Int) has ever been tried? It seems to me like an effective means because it shuts down spell slots, spell DCs, and (if it's severe enough) the highest levels of spells. Rather than emphasizing a weakness that they already have, you hit them where they're the most effective. You could even say that the resulting void of energy makes it so enhancements to their score (like headbands of int) don't work while the drain is present.

Reinboom
2010-02-15, 12:07 PM
Possibly productive to the OP's goals (or at least an idea). A decent while ago, I posted an idea where I tried to tackle all XP costs in general. However, since they are littered through the system and flux so wildly, I decided to just have a running system alongside the original XP.

The result is here:
http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Experience_Buffer

My variant was well received when I posted it so long ago originally. So, there's a slightly different take on this.

AsuroftheStair
2010-02-15, 01:09 PM
This is a really hardcore system! I especially like the idea that it's a buffer in the first place, since that's almost what this thread was reaching for.

Roderick_BR
2010-02-15, 11:00 PM
Some rules I saw makes scrolls just need the gold for ingredients, and long times to write it down. If the group have some free weeks, the cleric and the wizard can write down some low level scrolls, like healing and utilitaries. Higher level spells can take days to weeks to months to be done.
Potions would require the gold, the time, and some special lab. Yes, a cure light wounds could be done one every day, so the group can have a backpack full of them, but at higher levels, things like heal, remove blindness, and super heroism becomes more needed, but are costly and take time to make.

For non-consumables (misc and magic gear), the DM could set a "XP cost" that the characters need to earn by adventuring, representing rare ingredients they need to find in distant places.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-16, 02:00 AM
If you're looking for a non-renewable resource that the party can't just sit around and wait to recover, you could reintroduce aging costs from AD&D. Instead of costing experience or draining levels, some spells/items/monsters aged the caster/subject (for instance, wish aged the caster 3 years in addition to requiring up to 8 days of full rest). Aging the caster provides a visible in-world consequence to "pouring your life into an item," it sets a semi-hard cap on how much you can enchant...and it dissuades casters from starting as Venerable for the stat boosts. :smallwink:

ZerglingOne
2010-02-16, 02:27 AM
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned since I didn't take the time to read through all of the posts. The way we handle it in my campaigns goes a little bit like this. You're able to use as much experience as you've gained on your current level to craft items. This experience doesn't subtract from your current total, you just have a cap each level. If you wish to go beyond the cap, that's when you start subtracting actual experience points. Think of it like being able to spend the money you've earned, but if you spend more than you've earned, you go into debt.

example:
1-999 = level 1 max usable exp
1-1999 = level 2 max usable exp
etc.


Edit: Also, at every level, the cap is reset. You don't get to use any experience you had "saved up" once you level.

Edit 2: Another effect this has involves the danger of random encounters. Say for example one of your players has 900 delicious experience points "saved" up that he's going to use for crafting when they get to town, BING! Random encounter that puts him over 1000 exp sending him to level 2. That nice chunk of exp that he had waiting is now vaporized at the cost of him being level 2.