Mauther
2010-02-12, 02:08 PM
I was hoping to get some feedback on a primary houserule/nerf for a 3.5 campaign. I'd like to ask that we all start from a pre-arranged position, and take that as a given so we have a baseline in discussing whether the "fix" is balanced or not. I realize, that not everyone will agree with that position, but in order to keep the discussion on task and to avoid repeating a long standing D&D argument I'd like to keep that given as "accepted", at least as it concerns the gaming group in question. I am reasonably certain my players agree with the central conceit, its been the center point of numerous discussions over the years since the initial launch of 3.0 but we as a group have never attempted to address it mechanically.
I would humbly ask that we take as a given (at least for this argument) that a) high level spells dominant gaming sessions, b) characters with high level spells dominate their team, c) the power offered by high level spells effectively disincentivizes players from playing any class/multiclass/prestige class that's not a full progression caster. In simple terms, a) most people would agree that spells like Power Word, Trap the Soul, Imprisonment, Time Stop, Resurrection, Gate, and Implosion reliably and directly dictate the way a game develops, much more than +4 magic device or any class ability; b) high level casters can replicate and surpass many if not most of the party roles handled by other characters (example: Ethereal Jaunt (Rogue), Discern Location (Ranger), Legend Lore/Vision (Bard), Tenser's Transformation (Fighter), etc.); and c) unless a prestige class offers a massive payoff in its special abilities, the tactical and utilitarian advantages of a full caster means that a player who forgoes that ability is less effective individually, as part a party, and with regards to the expected party ability (that's to say an EL 15 encounter may assume a party has access to Banishment or Greater Restoration, the absence of which greatly increases the difficulty of the challenge). For the reasons listed above, assume that a group has agreed that higher level magic needs to be restricted.
The basic nerf is this: spells of a certain level and higher are not automatically learned with level advancement. Spell slots are still gained so they can be filled with lower level spells or used for metamagic effects or whatever other use might be available. Additionally, high level spells may be learned, but they must be purchased with gold and experience. Essentially each spell would be handled like a separate custom magic item, but once learned it would function as normal. This would restrict the availability of high level spells, but still allow their participation in the adventure. But high level spells become a signature ability rather than swiss army knives of apocalypse. A high level cleric would be renown for his ability to control the weather or to kill evil with a single holy word, rather than that being something any old 13th level cleric can do. It also inhibits the Batman spell list, the ability with sufficient preparation to kill anything with the right customizable combo of spells. A character might compile a dragon-slayer spell list in order to kill Rhindle the Red Dragon, but this would require significant effort and sacrifice, instead of the current method of sleeping for the night to reset spells or dropping a few hundred gp at the market to add them to your spell book. Additionally, this keeps high level spells available as plot devices, PCs may choose to go to a specialist NPC rather than learn an expensive but rarely used high level effect. Obviously, an effect this big would be a major plot point, in fact it’s the lynch pin of the entire campaign. So its intended to be noticeable so I'm not looking for a seamless change.
The question, do you think this is fair or playable rule change? Additionally, what level do you think would be a good cut-off? I'm bouncing between 5th and 7th level spells myself, leaning towards the former. Additionally, what do you think would be a good pricing structure? I'm looking for something prohibitive but not exclusionary, probably based on spell effect magic items. I want it to be a sacrifice to gain the spell ability. So maybe (Spell Level x Caster Level x 1800/50) = (SL x CL x 36xp) & (XP x 25gp). So Forcecage (7th level evocation = 3276 xp & 39,312gp) I think that might be a little too much even.
I would humbly ask that we take as a given (at least for this argument) that a) high level spells dominant gaming sessions, b) characters with high level spells dominate their team, c) the power offered by high level spells effectively disincentivizes players from playing any class/multiclass/prestige class that's not a full progression caster. In simple terms, a) most people would agree that spells like Power Word, Trap the Soul, Imprisonment, Time Stop, Resurrection, Gate, and Implosion reliably and directly dictate the way a game develops, much more than +4 magic device or any class ability; b) high level casters can replicate and surpass many if not most of the party roles handled by other characters (example: Ethereal Jaunt (Rogue), Discern Location (Ranger), Legend Lore/Vision (Bard), Tenser's Transformation (Fighter), etc.); and c) unless a prestige class offers a massive payoff in its special abilities, the tactical and utilitarian advantages of a full caster means that a player who forgoes that ability is less effective individually, as part a party, and with regards to the expected party ability (that's to say an EL 15 encounter may assume a party has access to Banishment or Greater Restoration, the absence of which greatly increases the difficulty of the challenge). For the reasons listed above, assume that a group has agreed that higher level magic needs to be restricted.
The basic nerf is this: spells of a certain level and higher are not automatically learned with level advancement. Spell slots are still gained so they can be filled with lower level spells or used for metamagic effects or whatever other use might be available. Additionally, high level spells may be learned, but they must be purchased with gold and experience. Essentially each spell would be handled like a separate custom magic item, but once learned it would function as normal. This would restrict the availability of high level spells, but still allow their participation in the adventure. But high level spells become a signature ability rather than swiss army knives of apocalypse. A high level cleric would be renown for his ability to control the weather or to kill evil with a single holy word, rather than that being something any old 13th level cleric can do. It also inhibits the Batman spell list, the ability with sufficient preparation to kill anything with the right customizable combo of spells. A character might compile a dragon-slayer spell list in order to kill Rhindle the Red Dragon, but this would require significant effort and sacrifice, instead of the current method of sleeping for the night to reset spells or dropping a few hundred gp at the market to add them to your spell book. Additionally, this keeps high level spells available as plot devices, PCs may choose to go to a specialist NPC rather than learn an expensive but rarely used high level effect. Obviously, an effect this big would be a major plot point, in fact it’s the lynch pin of the entire campaign. So its intended to be noticeable so I'm not looking for a seamless change.
The question, do you think this is fair or playable rule change? Additionally, what level do you think would be a good cut-off? I'm bouncing between 5th and 7th level spells myself, leaning towards the former. Additionally, what do you think would be a good pricing structure? I'm looking for something prohibitive but not exclusionary, probably based on spell effect magic items. I want it to be a sacrifice to gain the spell ability. So maybe (Spell Level x Caster Level x 1800/50) = (SL x CL x 36xp) & (XP x 25gp). So Forcecage (7th level evocation = 3276 xp & 39,312gp) I think that might be a little too much even.