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Calimehter
2010-02-12, 03:24 PM
I DM for a group that plays a mostly-unoptimized and (up till recently) mostly-core game that recently switched over to using the E6 rules mod. I'm aware that some folks on the forum would find this sort of thing horribly limiting, but so far everything is going smoothly and folks seem to enjoy it. With the switchover to E6, I've said that I'm going to be a lot looser in what is allowed from splatbooks and other non-core sources. The default used to be "no", now the default is "yes".

Right now, I own Complete Adventurer and UA, and oddly Heroes of Battle too. I have access to other books through the players, though I haven't gone about acquiring any for myself yet.

So . . . what do I need to watch out for in the splatbooks that a DM whose previous experience was (almost) all-core might miss? I would like to forestall any campaign-wreckers, or at the very least get an idea of some optimized ideas to watch out for. Most of the "nasty" game-breaking stuff I read about relates to builds in the double digits for character levels, but I can imagine that there's some stuff out there that is too good even for E6.

Thanks in advance for the feedback! :)

----------------------

P.S. Some background on house rules (above and beyond E6):

- Spontaneous Metamagic (Extra Slots variant) from UA, since otherwise metamagic is very hard to use with only 3 caster levels.
- Incantations from UA, for nice "plot hook" sorts of higher level spell effects w/o having them make much difference in a combat situation.
- Expanded Disabled/Staggered range, where anyone below 10% of their HP becomes Disabled (instead of just at 0HP)

Some rules I'm already considering banning:

- DMM and other "swap power X for metamagic or extra spell Y" type abilities. I'm already using Spontaneous Metamagic to help the spellcasters out, no need for DMM Persists on top of that. ;)

- ToB, Psionics, and other books that have fundamental rules changes. Extra feats and classes and the like are really more of what I'm looking for in a sourcebook, and neither of those two books I listed really fit in nicely with the campaign background.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-12, 03:33 PM
Shivering Touch is an incredibly broken 3rd level spell. It's in Frostburn and Spell Compendium. Lesser Shivering Touch is pretty harsh, too, though much less so. Beyond that, hmm. Celerity from Player's Handbook II is bad, but it's 4th level, so you're safe from that. Other than that, most of the really broken spells are from Core.

Outside of spells... eh, really, I can't think of anything. Seriously, you've been "restricting" yourself to the most unbalanced books in 3.5...

Tavar
2010-02-12, 03:36 PM
Druids can be beastly, luckily they're in a little known splatbook called the Players Handbook.

Calimehter
2010-02-12, 03:37 PM
I've been told that often enough that I'm starting to believe it. :)

What does Shivering Touch do?

Eldariel
2010-02-12, 03:37 PM
3d6 Dex damage as a touch attack without a save, with sr. In other words, it one-shots Dragons (if connecting).

Tavar
2010-02-12, 03:38 PM
3d6 Dexterity Damage, touch attack, no save. Possibly no SR(I can't remember). Also known as the dragon killer.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 03:46 PM
Level adjust, due to the fact that E6 replaces it with stat loss, can make some races/templates quite attractive.

Dragonwrought kobold is another obvious choice. The access to epic feats is juicy when you consider that feats are much more available in E6. For instance...epic toughness. +30 hp. I have to look to see if there's a creative way to get loredrake or the draconic rites in an E6 build...but if possible, thats a significantly powerful amount of cheddar.

Draz74
2010-02-12, 03:48 PM
Candle of Invocation-based Wishes, obviously.


- ToB, Psionics, and other books that have fundamental rules changes. Extra feats and classes and the like are really more of what I'm looking for in a sourcebook, and neither of those two books I listed really fit in nicely with the campaign background.

I'm sorry to hear it doesn't go well with your campaign background ... because I happen to think psionics are a particularly nice supplement to E6. (Not so much ToB. I love the book, but E6 isn't really where it shines IMHO.)

EDIT:


Level adjust, due to the fact that E6 replaces it with stat loss, can make some races/templates quite attractive.

Dragonwrought kobold is another obvious choice. The access to epic feats is juicy when you consider that feats are much more available in E6. For instance...epic toughness. +30 hp. I have to look to see if there's a creative way to get loredrake or the draconic rites in an E6 build...but if possible, thats a significantly powerful amount of cheddar.

Quoted for truth. Pixies, for example, are nasty in E6.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-12, 03:57 PM
Dragonwrought Kobold and Draconic Rite of Passage (but usually not the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, though you could argue that it is merely the Sorcerer catching up with the Wizard) are fine so long as you don't allow them to qualify for Epic feats.

As far as not allowing things that change the rules - eh. I wouldn't be particularly interested, because I like a lot of mechanical variety in my games. That's just personal opinion, though. On the other hand, neither Psionics nor Martial Maneuvers use complicated mechanics - in fact, I'd argue that both are in many ways simpler than normal Spellcasting. The only really complicated mechanics are in Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic (but at least in Incarnum's case, it's awesome - and the most complicated rules in ToM are Truenaming, which is awful any way and the rest of the book isn't so much complicated but is awesome).

Calimehter
2010-02-12, 04:43 PM
Thanks for the tips, folks. :smallbiggrin:

The Candle of Invocation comment reminded me of one other related question I wanted to ask. I'm thinking of adding an "epic" E6 feat that allows characters to create items with caster levels higher than 6. There would be restrictions on it, of course, such as applying each use of the feat to one item only and/or making the item's cost and requirements higher than normal even with the feat. Like the Incantation rule from UA, it allows for access to higher level magic effects (items in this case) but making it such that it would be very rare and more likely to be taken by a dedicated-build NPC than an adventuring-oriented PC build (though available if the PC wished to devote the time and attention to it).

Are there vast numbers of magic items 'just above' caster level 6 that could cause this move to backfire on me?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-12, 04:49 PM
I don't think so...but in general, allowing level 4 spells for the price of a feat each isn't too broken, so allowing corresponding magic items to be created, also for a feat cost, shouldn't be that big a deal.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-12, 07:09 PM
The feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon could potentially allow an E6 character to cast 4th level spells, though it's limited to Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. A Dread Necromancer would get access to Enervation, and with E6's built in Swift Metamagic and other tricks like using Sanctum Spell to make it 3rd level to use a Lesser Rod of Maximize, you could set up two Maximized, Twinned, Split Ray, Ocular Enervations. With a single full round action the character can fire four rays, each of which deal eight negative levels, to up to four separate targets who are guaranteed to be no higher than 6th level. It takes some shenanigans to accomplish, but it's probably one of the more powerful tricks that are possible in E6.

Oslecamo
2010-02-12, 07:14 PM
I don't think so...but in general, allowing level 4 spells for the price of a feat each isn't too broken, so allowing corresponding magic items to be created, also for a feat cost, shouldn't be that big a deal.

I believe one of the main points of E6 is to keep precisely 4th levels out of the door.

That is a golden level for magic, when casters start geting the really obscene stuff.

Fly is pretty nice as a 3rd level spell, but one level higher and you get black tentacles, polymorph, improved invisibility, enervation, planar biding, divine power, dimension door, phantasmal killer, scrying and the list just goes on.

Even one of those spells will greatly increase the spellcaster's power.

sonofzeal
2010-02-12, 07:15 PM
I'd like to echo the popular sentiment - most of the really broken stuff is from Core. There's some stuff outside of Core that's a real step up in power, but it's usually stuff that needed a step up. Shocktrooper and Dungeoncrasher for Fighters comes to mind, as does Tashalatora for Monks and Dragonfire Inspiration for Bards.



Potentially broken stuff... mmmm.... that's accessible by lvl 6? Not a whole lot, really. Fleshraker Dinosaurs are brutal for Druids though, especially combined with the Venomfire spell. Divine Metamagic and other Metamagic Reducers are also highly questionable; ruling that you have to be able to cast the modified spell pre-reduction helps though. Warlocks get 24/7 flight in E6 and almost nobody else does, but they really don't get enough else for it to be a massive problem. Entangling Exhalation is probably worth banning for Dragonfire Adepts. Artificers as a whole might be a good idea to ban outright too.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 07:18 PM
Entangling Exhalation is probably worth banning for Dragonfire Adepts.

Gonna disagree here. I didn't notice any particular advantage when I allowed it in a 3rd level campaign, or at least didn't notice a difference big enough to matter. Of course, I was sending ECL 7-9 encounters at the three PCs...

sonofzeal
2010-02-12, 08:47 PM
Gonna disagree here. I didn't notice any particular advantage when I allowed it in a 3rd level campaign, or at least didn't notice a difference big enough to matter. Of course, I was sending ECL 7-9 encounters at the three PCs...
Sorry, I should have clarified - I think it's fine (if in need of a damage nerf) for normal Dragonfire Adepts. But in E6, with no Freedom of Movement or Dimension Door, I think it becomes a lot more powerful. I'd at least consider it distasteful in an E6 game, but that's just me.

Splendor
2010-02-12, 09:12 PM
Shivering Touch is an incredibly broken 3rd level spell. It's in Frostburn and Spell Compendium.

What page is Shivering Touch on in the Spell Compendium, because it's not in mine. Is it under a different name?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-12, 09:15 PM
What page is Shivering Touch on in the Spell Compendium, because it's not in mine. Is it under a different name?

He's mistaken. Shivering Touch instead appears in Frostburn twice, not in Frostburn and the Spell Compendium.

gorfnab
2010-02-12, 10:13 PM
Not exactly broken but still an extremely powerful build to be aware of in E6: Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine #336 or Here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) under Basic Classes Page 91) Wildshape Variant (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-ranger) with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sword_of_the_Arcane_Order)

Bosh
2010-02-12, 11:01 PM
Nobody's mentioned Pun Pun, I'm very disappointed in all of you.

sonofzeal
2010-02-12, 11:10 PM
Nobody's mentioned Pun Pun, I'm very disappointed in all of you.
Pun-Pun's been around almost five years now. The joke's old, people don't care as much as they did. I think that's for the best, really.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-12, 11:16 PM
If you can ever read Manipulate Form and not realize that it needs to be banned outright.... well, maybe Wizards is hiring.

Calimehter
2010-02-12, 11:26 PM
No 4th level spells is a "hard" line I'm drawing for this campaign, so no combo that permits it would be allowed. I thought I saw another one of those somewhere (UA?) that I cannot now recall . . . but no matter.

Interesting combos that I hadn't heard of before, so good to know to keep an eye out for. Thanks for the feedback so far!

SurlySeraph
2010-02-13, 12:01 AM
Not exactly broken but still an extremely powerful build to be aware of in E6: Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine #336 or Here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) under Basic Classes Page 91) Wildshape Variant (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-ranger) with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sword_of_the_Arcane_Order)

In a similar vein, Cleric 4/ full BAB class 1/ Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) 1 with Battle Blessing (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Blessing) and Sword of the Arcane Order.

@V:Yep. I meant Cleric 4, and have edited accordingly.

sonofzeal
2010-02-13, 12:02 AM
In a similar vein, Cleric 5/ full BAB class 1/ Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) with Battle Blessing (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Blessing) and Sword of the Arcane Order.
Er, doesn't that require 7 levels?

Akal Saris
2010-02-13, 12:11 AM
I "broke" my E6 character by making a variant of the "supermount" build with a paladin 5/beastmaster 1 - I think with the special 3 E6 bonus feats at 6th that out party had, I managed to have a 19HD celestial dire wolf mount by advancing the mount/AC class features and the wild bond feat. Having a pet with more HP than your entire party combined (and almost more BAB as well) was pretty crazy.

Of course, in the end the character and his mount were just a pair of meat shields after all. But in a bit I'd have been able to get the dragon mount feat too.

Sophismata
2010-02-13, 03:55 AM
In a similar vein, Cleric 4/ full BAB class 1/ Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) 1 with Battle Blessing (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Blessing) and Sword of the Arcane Order.

Prestige Paladin advances your cleric spells, rather than give you Paladin spells and Paladin spellcasting. Sadly, the combo does not work.

Eldariel
2010-02-13, 04:08 AM
The various single-class capstones are a nice idea; Fighter getting access to Improved Critical, Weapon Mastery and such is a nice boon for making do with 6 Fighter-levels (of course, since you can just take Dungeoncrasher, those levels don't even suck).


And yeah, in E6, I'd say by far the most powerful class is Druid, especially Druid 6; you get your bonus Fighter, you get just enough Wildshape to stay Wildshaped most of the day on 6 (Extra Wildshape can eventually be picked up as a bonus feat to truly cover all day), you get great spellcasting and overall, you get to be a fcking Druid.

Though Monk 1/Druid 5 isn't bad either as getting Monk's Belt or Wild Armor can be tricksy (that is, impossible through conventional means; both require level 5 spells) in E6 and 5HD Wildshape is still quite good; though you need to wait until Extra Wildshape or two to truly maintain Wildshape all day. Just 5 hours doesn't cut it. Still, lacking access to 6HD forms is frankly no real problem as practically all of the good Medium forms are 5HD or smaller; and you still get level 3 spells and can just pick up Practiced Spellcaster for the last point of caster level so yea. Natural Bond would pick Animal Companion up to speed (although if DM allows it to count against the negative adjustment, this is a loss).

EDIT: Oh yeah, Monk 1/Druid 5 also has the advantage of accessing useful skills in Sense Motive (thanks to Druid's single-minded Wisdom-focus, it's naturally awesome for them), Balance (5 ranks means a LOT less headache especially if working with efficient low-level Wizards using Grease & al.) & Tumble (which is obviously very useful on its own right).

Unlike your average Monk, thanks to Wildshape and casting, a Druid doesn't have the MAD inherent to Monk and thus can actually afford the Int to enable investing in these skills while still getting the ones Druid wants too. Hide/Move Silently isn't horrible either especially since many Wildshape-forms can provide bonuses to these and make acquiring the Dex easy when desired.

EDIT#2: I totally forgot, use fractional BAB and saves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060303a). First of all, that makes more sense and second of all, it prevents access to things with high Save-prerequisites (you could access through multiclassing by standard rules).

DragoonWraith
2010-02-13, 08:53 AM
Not very many things you can get through Save stacking, though...

Starbuck_II
2010-02-13, 09:39 AM
Prestige Paladin advances your cleric spells, rather than give you Paladin spells and Paladin spellcasting. Sadly, the combo does not work.

Nope the book (not the SRD) says you gain access to Paladin spells.

Eldariel
2010-02-13, 10:57 AM
Not very many things you can get through Save stacking, though...

It is, however, blatant error in parts of rules writers that accomplishes absolutely nothing positive.

Glimbur
2010-02-13, 11:22 AM
Many of the later books (Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum) let characters pick up some abilities with feats. Since feats can be much cheaper in E6, this can give characters new and unexpected powers. That can be ok, provided you don't have one person taking Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt and Martial Studies while everyone else is taking Toughness and Dodge. Something to watch out for.

Darrin
2010-02-13, 02:09 PM
Here's a link to one of the Campaign Smashers II (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861846/Campaign_Smashers_II:_The_stuff_that_completely_br eaks_the_game) threads (or what's left of it after the gleemax migration). It's broken down by stuff you can do through levels 1-10 and 11-20, so you'll want to look carefully at the 1-10 stuff. I'm not sure how many are possible in the 1-6 range.

Something I don't see on that list: Mirror Mephit abuse (via Simulacrum as an SLA), which is possible at level 1 via Precocious Apprentice or more reliably at level 3. However, Summon Mirror Mephit is a pretty darned obscure spell tucked away in a hardback most people don't have.

faceroll
2010-02-13, 04:35 PM
Shivering Touch is an incredibly broken 3rd level spell. It's in Frostburn and Spell Compendium. Lesser Shivering Touch is pretty harsh, too, though much less so.

It's not in SpC. I think it's only printed in Frostburn.


Beyond that, hmm. Celerity from Player's Handbook II is bad, but it's 4th level, so you're safe from that. Other than that, most of the really broken spells are from Core.

Outside of spells... eh, really, I can't think of anything. Seriously, you've been "restricting" yourself to the most unbalanced books in 3.5...

What 1-3 level spells in core are absolutely bonkers broken? Color Spray requires you to be close to monsters and has a HD cap, Sleep takes a full round to cast and has a HD cap, and both only work against what, half the monster types? Grease is really great, and Glitterdust is quite solid, but I wouldn't put them anywhere near the brokenness of Teleport, Planar Binding, Gate, Timestop, or Foresight.


Nope the book (not the SRD) says you gain access to Paladin spells.

The SRD says the same thing.

Pluto
2010-02-13, 05:36 PM
Maybe not the scope you're looking for, but the Master of Shrouds' Wraiths can be pretty gamebreaking in the absence of higher-level characters.

Also, the savage progressions of the Ghaele Eladrin and Trumpet Archon (and a couple other Outsiders that aren't coming to mind) are preserved in their highest moments of comparative power.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-13, 06:27 PM
Regarding Prestige Paladin, the sidebar on UA page 71 says you should add the spells which are unique to the Bard/Paladin/Ranger spell lists to the class spell list of characters taking the respective prestigious classes. Note that a Cleric who takes Prestige Paladin is still casting Cleric spells, though the specific spells which are typically reserved for the Paladin class spell list are added to his Cleric spell list. RAW a Prestige Paladin is not casting Paladin spells.

Maybe if you're willing to permit early entry shenanigans, someone could make something like a Wizard 3/ Shadowcraft Mage 3. With Earth Spell, Easy Metamagic, Metamagic School Focus, and Practical Metamagic, he could mimic 6th level Evocation and Conjuration (summon/creation) spells from a 3rd level spell slot, similar to the effects of (Greater) Shadow Evocation/Conjuration.

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned the good ol' Pixie Warlock yet, but it's definitely a possibility.

Something like a Half Minotaur Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior Water Orc would be able to start off with stats something like Str 34, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 4, Wis 4, Cha 4, +6 natural armor, and DR 8/Adamantine, among other things. Note that in E6 all level adjustments are reduced to 0 in exchange for lower starting stats, so he could go something like Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6, Crusader 6, or Warblade 6 and be a juggernaut of destruction.

faceroll
2010-02-13, 06:44 PM
Going on heighten spell tricks, a warmage, beguiler, or dread necro gets 4th level spells with versatile spellcaster. Through in easy metamagic, practical metamagic, earth spell and sanctum spell, and he's getting access to 8th level spells as long as he's in his house or whatever. Pick up a sweet domain for good utility powers with arcane disciple, and go nuts. Feat intensive, though.

Sophismata
2010-02-15, 12:48 PM
The SRD says the same thing.


Spells per Day
A prestige paladin's training focuses on divine spellcasting. At every odd numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.

Am I missing something?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 12:55 PM
I believe one of the main points of E6 is to keep precisely 4th levels out of the door.

That is a golden level for magic, when casters start geting the really obscene stuff.

Fly is pretty nice as a 3rd level spell, but one level higher and you get black tentacles, polymorph, improved invisibility, enervation, planar biding, divine power, dimension door, phantasmal killer, scrying and the list just goes on.

Even one of those spells will greatly increase the spellcaster's power.

I've seen it used for things like Raise Dead, which are quite handy to have in a party. Yes, there's a lot of handy spells out there, but when you have to invest a feat in them as well, and others are picking up different feats instead, the power balance doesn't shift much.

DMs may not want to allow in absolutely every spell, though.

Calimehter
2010-02-15, 02:09 PM
I'm using the Incantations rules from UA to access higher level magic effects, so accessing spells of 4th level or higher via feats is out. I've already allowed in Incantations that are similar to Raise Dead and Scry, though as rituals they have a great deal more cost, difficulty, and casting time than a standard spell.

Good tips so far - I've made a list. Thanks for the feedback! :smallsmile:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 02:13 PM
The feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon could potentially allow an E6 character to cast 4th level spells, though it's limited to Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. A Dread Necromancer would get access to Enervation, and with E6's built in Swift Metamagic and other tricks like using Sanctum Spell to make it 3rd level to use a Lesser Rod of Maximize, you could set up two Maximized, Twinned, Split Ray, Ocular Enervations. With a single full round action the character can fire four rays, each of which deal eight negative levels, to up to four separate targets who are guaranteed to be no higher than 6th level. It takes some shenanigans to accomplish, but it's probably one of the more powerful tricks that are possible in E6.

I don't belive VErsatile spellcaster works that way in E6 as characters can only go up to 6th level therefore no slots above spell level 3 exist. there for you can't cast or know any 4th level or higher spells.

faceroll
2010-02-15, 02:22 PM
Am I missing something?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm

Begin at the beginning, it is a very good place to begin.

Riffington
2010-02-15, 02:37 PM
You want to ban Arcane Thesis; it's far too easy to abuse.
Mostly, in terms of lev 4+ spells, you want to make them rituals. You likely want something like Remove Curse to exist, for instance, and it doesn't ruin the game if it takes hours to cast intead of seconds.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 03:02 PM
You want to ban Arcane Thesis; it's far too easy to abuse.
Mostly, in terms of lev 4+ spells, you want to make them rituals. You likely want something like Remove Curse to exist, for instance, and it doesn't ruin the game if it takes hours to cast intead of seconds.

Arcane Thesis by itself is just peachy. It's when it's used in combination with other stuff that it gets sticky. Extending a single third level spell is a rather meh ability in return for two feats. And frankly, with third level spells, tops, you can only abuse metamagic so much.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-15, 03:17 PM
I don't belive VErsatile spellcaster works that way in E6 as characters can only go up to 6th level therefore no slots above spell level 3 exist. there for you can't cast or know any 4th level or higher spells.

VS lets you use up multiple lower level spell slot to gain higher level. So yes, they can (remember they know their entire spell list).

faceroll
2010-02-15, 03:27 PM
Arcane Thesis by itself is just peachy. It's when it's used in combination with other stuff that it gets sticky.

Unfortunately, Arcane Thesis exists only to be used in combination with other stuff.

olentu
2010-02-15, 04:16 PM
VS lets you use up multiple lower level spell slot to gain higher level. So yes, they can (remember they know their entire spell list).

Well they know all spells of a level when they gain access to spells of that level.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 04:21 PM
VS lets you use up multiple lower level spell slot to gain higher level. So yes, they can (remember they know their entire spell list).

Correct however.. in E6 each class stops at level 6 so.. there is no 4th level spells. there for there are no known 4th level spells...

If you want to house rule it thats cool but in E6 every thing level 7 and above doesn't exist as far as classes go. Gm's are encouraged to add spells as feats but they don't esxist so no Versitile caster doesn't work like that as there are no 4th level spells.

Riffington
2010-02-15, 04:30 PM
Arcane Thesis by itself is just peachy. It's when it's used in combination with other stuff that it gets sticky. Extending a single third level spell is a rather meh ability in return for two feats. And frankly, with third level spells, tops, you can only abuse metamagic so much.

Bah. In E6, the caster level boost alone is on the strong side.
Now add on facts like Scorching Ray, split or empowered, is suddenly 12d6 worth of ranged touch attacks for your 3rd level slot. Way too strong. Add a sudden (empower or maximize) for slightly faster DM-ban service.

olentu
2010-02-15, 04:46 PM
Correct however.. in E6 each class stops at level 6 so.. there is no 4th level spells. there for there are no known 4th level spells...

If you want to house rule it thats cool but in E6 every thing level 7 and above doesn't exist as far as classes go. Gm's are encouraged to add spells as feats but they don't esxist so no Versitile caster doesn't work like that as there are no 4th level spells.

By the by where are the actual rules for e6 that presumably state among other things that everything level 7 and above does not exist.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 04:48 PM
By the by where are the actual rules for e6 that presumably state among other things that everything level 7 and above does not exist.

Actually its in the introduction of the E6 pdf rules ... it says that the whole point is that no spells above 3rd are cast-able it even goes so far as to tell to.

besides that. It says all classes stop at level 6. There for there is no leve 7 or 8 to get 4th level slots. therefore they do not exist.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 04:54 PM
Bah. In E6, the caster level boost alone is on the strong side.
Now add on facts like Scorching Ray, split or empowered, is suddenly 12d6 worth of ranged touch attacks for your 3rd level slot. Way too strong. Add a sudden (empower or maximize) for slightly faster DM-ban service.

Well, it's still specific to one spell. Sure, it makes that one spell quite nice, but keep in mind that said scorching ray requires making touch attacks, and while this is doable, it's certainly not an automatic hit like touch attacks tend to be in higher levels. Your caster probably has a whopping +3 bab and something like a +3 dex bonus(assuming he's got a good dex). +6 gives you a pretty decent failure chance, and it's not as if they have all that many third level slots to blow it on.

It's if you allow it in conjunction with other reducers that things get silly.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 04:57 PM
Actually its in the introduction of the E6 pdf rules ... it says that the whole point is that no spells above 3rd are cast-able it even goes so far as to tell to.

besides that. It says all classes stop at level 6. There for there is no leve 7 or 8 to get 4th level slots. therefore they do not exist.

The second part fails on the basis that I can find classes that cast up to sixth level spells by level 6. Rare, sure. Likely to come up in E6? Not really. But the conclusion that they don't exist because classes stop at level 6 is not warranted because there are several ways for level 6 classes to have spells above third level.

Now, if you've got an actual quote in the rules saying that no spells above 3rd level exist, period, you might have a point. I seem to recall them reccomending 4th level spells as feats, though.

SurlySeraph
2010-02-15, 05:23 PM
Do note that in the original E6 document, it suggests allowing feats that let a caster use a single 4th-level spell once per day; the examples they give are all direct-damage spells, which I think is a sensible restriction.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 05:58 PM
The second part fails on the basis that I can find classes that cast up to sixth level spells by level 6. Rare, sure. Likely to come up in E6? Not really. But the conclusion that they don't exist because classes stop at level 6 is not warranted because there are several ways for level 6 classes to have spells above third level.

Now, if you've got an actual quote in the rules saying that no spells above 3rd level exist, period, you might have a point. I seem to recall them reccomending 4th level spells as feats, though.

What class can cast 6th level spells by level 6? if its homebrew it doesn't count...



Like the World’s Most Popular Roleplaying
Game, E6 is a game of enigmatic wizards,
canny rogues, and mighty warriors who
rise against terrible dangers and overcome
powerful foes. But instead of using 20
levels to translate characters into the
rules, E6 uses only the first 6.

It uses the first 6 class levels... please show me a wotc class that gets level 6 spells by level 6? As classes only go to 6th as per the rule above there can't be any 4th level spells. agian they don't exist because no class has any spells known that are 4th level... they may have spell like abilities, su or , ex abilities that mimic 4th level spells.

He even sugests that if you want to take a lean up aprouch that you may allow some 4th level spells however he uses the "gestault theory" as his basis(not UA gestault).

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 06:06 PM
What class can cast 6th level spells by level 6? if its homebrew it doesn't count...

Homebrew? Heresy!

Nope, Beholder Mage, from Lords of Madness. There are other accelerated casting classes, but this is probably the most dramatic example, getting crazy abilities in addition to casting and being a base class as well.

Now, would it be practical for most E6 players to use? No. At least, not without a rather large helping of cheese. But it does exist, using actual spells, not spell like abilities or similar.


It uses the first 6 class levels... please show me a wotc class that gets level 6 spells by level 6? As classes only go to 6th as per the rule above there can't be any 4th level spells. agian they don't exist because no class has any spells known that are 4th level... they may have spell like abilities, su or , ex abilities that mimic 4th level spells.

He even sugests that if you want to take a lean up aprouch that you may allow some 4th level spells however he uses the "gestault theory" as his basis(not UA gestault).

There are a number of builds that get 4th level spells. Some were already suggested. Would they be rare in an E6 world? Certainly. 4th level spells would no doubt be few and far between....but they would exist unless banned directly.

Riffington
2010-02-15, 07:51 PM
Well, it's still specific to one spell. Sure, it makes that one spell quite nice, but keep in mind that said scorching ray requires making touch attacks, and while this is doable, it's certainly not an automatic hit like touch attacks tend to be in higher levels. Your caster probably has a whopping +3 bab and something like a +3 dex bonus(assuming he's got a good dex). +6 gives you a pretty decent failure chance, and it's not as if they have all that many third level slots to blow it on.

It's if you allow it in conjunction with other reducers that things get silly.

+6 when a high touch AC is 12 is still quite high (75% chance of a hit). There is just an unacceptable risk of one-shotting most encounters with that much damage. Heck, even a fireball with 8d6 is overpowered in E6.




There are a number of builds that get 4th level spells. Some were already suggested.

Which?
Beholder mage doesn't work because you don't have the polymorph any object cheese to make it work (and it's likely illegal to start with).
Beguilers don't know 4th level spells via versatile spellcaster in 3.5 or in E6; that's an incorrect rules reading.
Shadowcraft Mage early entry is likewise dependent on misreadings of the rules.
Prestige Paladin certainly doesn't get 4th level spells.

Xenogears
2010-02-15, 07:58 PM
Nope, Beholder Mage, from Lords of Madness. There are other accelerated casting classes, but this is probably the most dramatic example, getting crazy abilities in addition to casting and being a base class as well.

How would you become a Beholder in E6? PoA is too high level to use, beholders have too much HD and LA, etc. Just curious.

Saph
2010-02-15, 08:08 PM
Which?
Beholder mage doesn't work because you don't have the polymorph any object cheese to make it work (and it's likely illegal to start with).
Beguilers don't know 4th level spells via versatile spellcaster in 3.5 or in E6; that's an incorrect rules reading.
Shadowcraft Mage early entry is likewise dependent on misreadings of the rules.
Prestige Paladin certainly doesn't get 4th level spells.

Even if there were any that don't require extreme cheese (which I don't think there are) it's a pretty safe bet that you won't be getting them in an E6 game anyway. The entire point of E6 is that it's a lower-power setting where you DON'T get to do all this ridiculous stuff.

olentu
2010-02-15, 08:28 PM
Beguilers don't know 4th level spells via versatile spellcaster in 3.5 or in E6; that's an incorrect rules reading.

Arguably one could get around this with heighten spell or one of the feats that grant spells known for all levels.

Riffington
2010-02-15, 08:34 PM
Arguably one could get around this with heighten spell or one of the feats that grant spells known for all levels.

There's no problem with using Versatile Spellcaster to add metamagic to a 3rd level spell.
But, if you assume that simply "I can under certain specialized circumstances cast a 4th level spell" counts as "can cast 4th level spells" and thus qualifies you for early entry and for a 4th level spell list... well, then the corollary is that "I have UMD and a scroll" likewise qualifies you for early entry into PrCs. The logical consequence of this is distressing.

jokey665
2010-02-15, 08:37 PM
"I can under certain specialized circumstances cast a 4th level spell" counts as "can cast 4th level spells"

10emphasis'd

Riffington
2010-02-15, 08:46 PM
10emphasis'd

Ok, so you have no problem with my Ftr1/Wiz1 going into Eldritch Knight at 3rd level, provided he has a 3rd level scroll or two in his possession?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-15, 09:10 PM
Ok, so you have no problem with my Ftr1/Wiz1 going into Eldritch Knight at 3rd level, provided he has a 3rd level scroll or two in his possession?

It doesn't take much effort to see a distinction between being able to do something on occasion but an indefinite number of times as opposed to being able to do something a limited number of times. Not precisely RAW but not an intrinsically unreasonable RAI and backed up the fact that generally one can use continual items to count for PrC prereqs.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 09:16 PM
Homebrew? Heresy!

Nope, Beholder Mage, from Lords of Madness. There are other accelerated casting classes, but this is probably the most dramatic example, getting crazy abilities in addition to casting and being a base class as well.

Now, would it be practical for most E6 players to use? No. At least, not without a rather large helping of cheese. But it does exist, using actual spells, not spell like abilities or similar.

you are correct there are a bunch of prestige classes that can get 4th through 6th level spells there not base classes and even the ones that can with early acceleration rely on spells of a higher level or monsters which you can't play according to e6 rules...

4th level spells don't exist.

Versitile spellcaster in e6 will not get you 4-5th level spells simply because beguilers, dread necros and warmages don't have levels 7-20 and you can't get a spell that's not there.
That is the whole point of the E6 variant is that level 7+ for players doesn't exist not there.... none... if a gm wants to let some 7+ aspect of the game into the setting they are encouraged to do so as feats wich allow once perday castings with a gold cost for materials.

as per example below:

Stone to Flesh
Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rdlevel
arcane spells, Intelligence 18, Craft
(Alchemy) 9 Ranks
Benefit: You can use stone to flesh, as
the spell, with an expensive and secret
magical ingredient with a market value
of 1000 gp and a casting time of 1 day.


Not even with Kobold cheese could you go past 6th... you could cast as a sorcerer of 6th level with only 3-4 levels but there is no 7+ levels.

olentu
2010-02-15, 10:46 PM
you are correct there are a bunch of prestige classes that can get 4th through 6th level spells there not base classes and even the ones that can with early acceleration rely on spells of a higher level or monsters which you can't play according to e6 rules...

4th level spells don't exist.

Versitile spellcaster in e6 will not get you 4-5th level spells simply because beguilers, dread necros and warmages don't have levels 7-20 and you can't get a spell that's not there.
That is the whole point of the E6 variant is that level 7+ for players doesn't exist not there.... none... if a gm wants to let some 7+ aspect of the game into the setting they are encouraged to do so as feats wich allow once perday castings with a gold cost for materials.

as per example below:



Not even with Kobold cheese could you go past 6th... you could cast as a sorcerer of 6th level with only 3-4 levels but there is no 7+ levels.

Assuming I am remembering the ability correctly an artificer could easily scribe and cast spells of levels above 3 without a specific prohibition. Perhaps if this prohibition could be presented then there would be something depending on how it is worded.

Also while I do not know any specific restrictions on monsters the CR 7 nymph happens to be able to cast spells as a 7th level druid and CR 7 seems to be in the reasonable range for a level 6 party to encounter.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 11:19 PM
Assuming I am remembering the ability correctly an artificer could easily scribe and cast spells of levels above 3 without a specific prohibition. Perhaps if this prohibition could be presented then there would be something depending on how it is worded.

Also while I do not know any specific restrictions on monsters the CR 7 nymph happens to be able to cast spells as a 7th level druid and CR 7 seems to be in the reasonable range for a level 6 party to encounter.

I belive artificer came out after the rules where written... It was pre ebberon.

As for the nymph in the original form posts over at enworld, they mentioned that... Unfortunatly my downloads of those threads have been lost but it mentioned about how said nymph would be casting as a 6th level druid... i belive you are supposed to change the casting...

Eaither way my argument was specificaly for players monsters follow different rules in e6

olentu
2010-02-15, 11:56 PM
I belive artificer came out after the rules where written... It was pre ebberon.

As for the nymph in the original form posts over at enworld, they mentioned that... Unfortunatly my downloads of those threads have been lost but it mentioned about how said nymph would be casting as a 6th level druid... i belive you are supposed to change the casting...

Eaither way my argument was specificaly for players monsters follow different rules in e6

E6 as a set of rules then seems much less useful if one must houserule in perceived designer intent for it to work properly.

Rixx
2010-02-16, 01:22 AM
E6 as a set of rules then seems much less useful if one must houserule in perceived designer intent for it to work properly.

D&D 3.5 is a set of rules where one must houserule in perceived designer intent for it to work properly.

olentu
2010-02-16, 01:28 AM
D&D 3.5 is a set of rules where one must houserule in perceived designer intent for it to work properly.

And as such what use is it to set out a set of rules that one would need to houserule when one could just houserule the original system instead of doing more work when houseruling the original system with extras.

Sophismata
2010-02-16, 01:48 AM
+6 when a high touch AC is 12 is still quite high (75% chance of a hit). There is just an unacceptable risk of one-shotting most encounters with that much damage.

It's actually 3 attacks, so I wouldn't say one-shotting. Also, fire resistance applies to each ray.

Rixx
2010-02-16, 02:01 AM
And as such what use is it to set out a set of rules that one would need to houserule when one could just houserule the original system instead of doing more work when houseruling the original system with extras.

Because playing a balanced game of expanded 3.5 past level 6 is more work than playing expanded 3.5 with E6. In either case, the houseruling is really only required if optimizers who try these sorts of things are in play.

Draz74
2010-02-16, 02:25 AM
E6 as a set of rules then seems much less useful if one must houserule in perceived designer intent for it to work properly.

That's ... kind of a tradition in all editions and versions of D&D. Rule 0 and all that.

Yes, it's a nice added feature when a system/subsystem/ruleset thinks of all the loose ends and ties them up in a nice pretty package for you. But that's really very rare. And some of the subsystems and rulesets that do this the least tend to be quite popular (Gestalt, anyone?).

E6 doesn't claim to have thought of everything, especially where CR 7+ monsters are concerned. It flat-out says the DM will have to play around and figure out what works.

olentu
2010-02-16, 04:19 AM
That's ... kind of a tradition in all editions and versions of D&D. Rule 0 and all that.

Yes, it's a nice added feature when a system/subsystem/ruleset thinks of all the loose ends and ties them up in a nice pretty package for you. But that's really very rare. And some of the subsystems and rulesets that do this the least tend to be quite popular (Gestalt, anyone?).

E6 doesn't claim to have thought of everything, especially where CR 7+ monsters are concerned. It flat-out says the DM will have to play around and figure out what works.

So getting back to my point in the one hand if part of e6 is that it does not really work completely and as such the DM should and must do whatever they think necessary to fix it. If this is the case then one can not say for example that 4th level and higher spells should aways be disallowed as having them available might work just fine for one group and not for another. Thus saying that one could not possibly cast 4th level spells in e6 is not correct since there is to much dependent on the DM's opinion.

On the other hand if the e6 rules are taken to work without DM intervention as a necessary part one can not say that getting 4th level or higher spells is illegal due to the e6 rules given the lack of said rules saying such a thing.

So in either case it would seem that one can not correctly say that access to 4th level or higher spells is necessarily illegal under the e6 rules without the rules saying such a thing or the designer changing the rules accordingly.

That being said in either case discussion as to how one would get higher level spells is important to the topic as the thread starter did wish to know things that might need to be houseruled out as they might be overpowered depending on how things go. So saying "that does not work since I interpret the designers intent to be that one can not do so" is perhaps less then helpful as it stops discussion and if the cases were discussed some might be acceptable while some might not. But regardless of the outcome I feel that discussing the methods and relative power of the options is better then not given that the thread seems to be for gathering information.

Riffington
2010-02-16, 05:24 AM
It doesn't take much effort to see a distinction between being able to do something on occasion but an indefinite number of times as opposed to being able to do something a limited number of times. Not precisely RAW but not an intrinsically unreasonable RAI and backed up the fact that generally one can use continual items to count for PrC prereqs.

RAI doesn't help you because RAI is clearly that to qualify for a high level spell list or a prestige class requiring 2nd level spells, you have to be of high enough level to cast those spells (not just have Precocious Apprentice or Versatile Spellcaster). Once you've thrown out RAI, you have no reason to disallow my "I know Read Magic and thus can cast 3rd level spells. From Scrolls."

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 07:08 AM
RAI doesn't help you because RAI is clearly that to qualify for a high level spell list or a prestige class requiring 2nd level spells, you have to be of high enough level to cast those spells (not just have Precocious Apprentice or Versatile Spellcaster). Once you've thrown out RAI, you have no reason to disallow my "I know Read Magic and thus can cast 3rd level spells. From Scrolls."

Sure, you qualify, but only on rounds you do cast 3rd level spells from scrolls. If you are ever seperated from those scrolls (or run out): you'd lose the preqs and then the class/feat that required it.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 08:27 AM
RAI doesn't help you because RAI is clearly that to qualify for a high level spell list or a prestige class requiring 2nd level spells, you have to be of high enough level to cast those spells (not just have Precocious Apprentice or Versatile Spellcaster). Once you've thrown out RAI, you have no reason to disallow my "I know Read Magic and thus can cast 3rd level spells. From Scrolls."

RAI isn't clear on this. The only thing it actually requires is the ability to cast spell level x. They typically don't specify exactly how you get the ability, and flavor text often indicates that they expect people to qualify for PrCs in a variety of ways.

It is pretty clear that it expects you to have the ability, though. Not for you to get the ability from a scroll. There's a big logical gap between the two.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-16, 12:52 PM
Activating a scroll is a Spell Completion, =/= casting a spell. The two are similar, but are intentionally counted as separate types of actions. Arguing that a Spell Completion item qualifies you for a spellcasting ability prerequisite is akin to trying to use Weapon Focus to make an early BAB requirement. They are clearly not the same thing, and should not be treated as such.

Versatile Spellcaster's interaction with classes which know their entire spell list is a bit ambiguous. All three of the classes in question specify that when you "gain access to a new level of spells" you automatically learn all the spells of that level from your class spell list. Saying that you cannot cast spells of that level via Versatile Spellcaster because you do not yet know any is identical to the fact that you cannot use spell slots of that level to cast spells of that level because you do not yet know any. Versatile Spellcaster grants the same 'access' to the next level of spells as spell slots of that level grant. Even if a DM houserules this to not grant spells known of that level, you could use Heighten Spell or Sanctum Spell to cast spells of that level anyway and gain knowledge of those spells.


A Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) who goes Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) 6 will have 6d8+12+Con HP, +4 BAB, and cast spells as a 9th level Wizard. Spellhoarding is in Dragon 313, Loredrake is in Dragons of Eberron, Dragonwrought Kobold is from Races of the Dragon, Stalwart Sorcerer is in Complete Mage. Note that Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer reduce your Sorcerer spell/day/known, which is then replaced by Wizard spellcasting of an equal level via Spellhoarding.

Draz74
2010-02-16, 02:18 PM
So in either case it would seem that one can not correctly say that access to 4th level or higher spells is necessarily illegal under the e6 rules without the rules saying such a thing or the designer changing the rules accordingly.

That being said in either case discussion as to how one would get higher level spells is important to the topic as the thread starter did wish to know things that might need to be houseruled out as they might be overpowered depending on how things go. So saying "that does not work since I interpret the designers intent to be that one can not do so" is perhaps less then helpful as it stops discussion and if the cases were discussed some might be acceptable while some might not. But regardless of the outcome I feel that discussing the methods and relative power of the options is better then not given that the thread seems to be for gathering information.

Yep, I can't argue with any of that logic. I think the difficulty is that a lot of people assume a houserule "no spells above 3rd level" is a given in E6. (It's certainly a reasonable one, in my book.) You're saying, if that's true, then it needs to be stated explicitly, and people are getting annoyed because they don't like having their assumptions pointed out to them when they don't think those assumptions need to be questioned.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 02:27 PM
Yep, I can't argue with any of that logic. I think the difficulty is that a lot of people assume a houserule "no spells above 3rd level" is a given in E6. (It's certainly a reasonable one, in my book.) You're saying, if that's true, then it needs to be stated explicitly, and people are getting annoyed because they don't like having their assumptions pointed out to them when they don't think those assumptions need to be questioned.

I also think its alot due to how old e6 is... it was written before alot of these things where there...
I believe it was written before RoD and all the other get spells at a higher level...

The main argument is that classes don't exist above 6th level that is the cut off... no house rule on that. therefore if no classes exist above 6th level then there can be no spells above 6th level nor are there any prestige classes that can't be proced before 6th level...


My personal opinion is that with things released after e6 was finalised you have to look at the intent rather then raw. there may be 4th level spells however there are no classes above 6th level therefore no class can have 4th level spells... some monsters could. but no class.. therefore versitile spell caster and the kobold crazyness won't work because there is no spell slots of 4th level or higher as they don't exist.


I think its a view of classes still go to 20 but we just stop at 6th vs class features and classes stop at 6 and there is nothing further.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 02:36 PM
I also think its alot due to how old e6 is... it was written before alot of these things where there...
I believe it was written before RoD and all the other get spells at a higher level...

Sanctum Spell has been around for a while. In fact, Im pretty sure it was in 3.0, and was revised for 3.5. So, sure, plenty of the ways may be new. Not all of them are. Likewise, heighten spell, useful in so many of these, is core, and has existed since 3.x was created.


The main argument is that classes don't exist above 6th level that is the cut off... no house rule on that.

Nobody is challenging that.


therefore if no classes exist above 6th level then there can be no spells above 6th level nor are there any prestige classes that can't be proced before 6th level...

But we've shown a wild variety of ways to get spells higher than third level by level six. So, step 2 fails horribly.


My personal opinion is that with things released after e6 was finalised you have to look at the intent rather then raw. there may be 4th level spells however there are no classes above 6th level therefore no class can have 4th level spells... some monsters could. but no class.. therefore versitile spell caster and the kobold crazyness won't work because there is no spell slots of 4th level or higher as they don't exist.

I would love to look at this intent. If you can show me where I can read it, that'd be great.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 02:56 PM
Sanctum Spell has been around for a while. In fact, Im pretty sure it was in 3.0, and was revised for 3.5. So, sure, plenty of the ways may be new. Not all of them are. Likewise, heighten spell, useful in so many of these, is core, and has existed since 3.x was created.

Nobody is challenging that.


But we've shown a wild variety of ways to get spells higher than third level by level six. So, step 2 fails horribly.


I would love to look at this intent. If you can show me where I can read it, that'd be great.

highten spell moves a spell to a higher level spell slot doesn't let you use a spell of said higher level.

highten from my understanding wouldn't do any thing to 3rd level spells as there are no higher level spell slots to use.


versitile doesn't work due to what i stated before where there are no 4th level spell slots as there is no 4th level spells in e6... those examples don't work under those facts.


I wish i could show you his intent it was pritty clear in the forum posts.
It also talks in the pdf about how 4th level spells should only be allowed in under feats...


also not sure what santum spell you looking at but
according to C. arcane:
A spell effected by this feat is cast at +1 Caster level if within your ‘Sanctum’ and at
–1 Caster level if cast outside your ‘Sanctum’.
A caster can only have one Sanctum, which requires several months to set up and can be
no larger than 20’ per level in diameter.


I'm not saying caster level you can get your caster level to the moon. I'm talking strictly Spell level. By all meens boost your caster level...


I would even look at the effects of earthen spell from RoS and i know under e6 it would bump a 3rd level spell to count for the purposes of saving throws. as per highten...


The only legitimate way I've seen so far is with kobolds. That is the one that i would question and am not sure about ... the only one. to be honest though in e6 you can't cast as a 9th level sorcerer as 9th level sorcerers don't exist.

I could see a:
dragon wrought lore drake kobold sorcerer 3 casting as a 6th level sorcerer but that's about it.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 03:10 PM
highten spell moves a spell to a higher level spell slot doesn't let you use a spell of said higher level.

highten from my understanding wouldn't do any thing to 3rd level spells as there are no higher level spell slots to use.


versitile doesn't work due to what i stated before where there are no 4th level spell slots as there is no 4th level spells in e6... those examples don't work under those facts.

So, we can't have 4th level spells because there are no 4th level slots, and we can't have 4th level slots because there are no 4th level spells?

Really?


also not sure what santum spell you looking at but
according to C. arcane:
A spell effected by this feat is cast at +1 Caster level if within your ‘Sanctum’ and at
–1 Caster level if cast outside your ‘Sanctum’.
A caster can only have one Sanctum, which requires several months to set up and can be
no larger than 20’ per level in diameter.


I'm not saying caster level you can get your caster level to the moon. I'm talking strictly Spell level. By all meens boost your caster level...

Go back to the book. Read it again. Look for the words "effective spell level". Hint: They're at the places you typed caster level.

Hint #2: When you're paraphrasing spell text to make it look as if you copied it, look up the difference between effected and affected.

Edit: It occurs to me that it may possibly be printed differently in editions in other languages. In the off chance that you have one of those, it says spell level in every place in the english version.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 03:18 PM
So, we can't have 4th level spells because there are no 4th level slots, and we can't have 4th level slots because there are no 4th level spells?

Really?



Go back to the book. Read it again. Look for the words "effective spell level". Hint: They're at the places you typed caster level.

Hint #2: When you're paraphrasing spell text to make it look as if you copied it, look up the difference between effected and affected.

Edit: It occurs to me that it may possibly be printed differently in editions in other languages. In the off chance that you have one of those, it says spell level in every place in the english version.


err what i ment is there are no 4th level spell slots. therefore no 4th level spells.

I cut and pasted from crystal keep. I don't have the book in front of me.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 03:20 PM
err what i ment is there are no 4th level spell slots. therefore no 4th level spells.

I cut and pasted from crystal keep. I don't have the book in front of me.

Ah, crystalkeep, like d&dwiki, are...dubious sources. The second tends to mix in a lot of homebrewing, while the first has numerous errors. They're decent as a reference to find sources, but I wouldn't suggest using them to argue precise wording.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 03:29 PM
Ah, crystalkeep, like d&dwiki, are...dubious sources. The second tends to mix in a lot of homebrewing, while the first has numerous errors. They're decent as a reference to find sources, but I wouldn't suggest using them to argue precise wording.

though even if it could increase the spell level there are no 4th level spell slots to use it...
when it increases the spell level does it not work like heighten spells? where the DC and the ability to by pass a lesser globe of invulnerablity.
much like heighten

Plus its a metamagic so therefore it would need a spell to metamagic.

it doesn't create a slot to get 4th level spells. it just counts the spell you meta magic as a 4th level spell for the purposes of dc and such.


I still fail to see how this proves any thing.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-16, 03:46 PM
Class progressions past 6th level still exist in E6, otherwise monsters couldn't get spells higher than 3rd level either. There's a character level cap of 6th for anything with class levels. Wizard is still a 20-level class, it still has a 20-level spellcasting progression, monsters like Ethergaunts (FF) still have high level Wizard spellcasting ability, but nothing is capable of taking more than six levels of the Wizard class. Similarly, Sorcerer is still a 20-level class and still has a 20-level spellcasting progression, and Dragons and other creatures which advance by racial HD instead of gaining XP which are capable of going past a character level of six will still get higher level spells from their racial spellcasting ability.

To presume that the 7th and higher levels of every class in the game no longer exist in E6 is willfully ignorant at best. A level restriction on what characters can gain does not imply that those levels cease to exist, they are simply out of reach. If something can access that class progression via another means, such as racial spellcasting ability, then it is within that creature's power to progress that class ability beyond 6th level provided it does not take more than six levels in the class itself. An Aranea could gain three more Sorcerer levels and have 6th level Sorcerer spellcasting ability. A White Dragonspawn character could gain six Sorcerer levels and have 7th level spellcasting ability. A Ghaele Eladrin has 14th level Cleric spellcasting, but you suggest that it should be limited to 3rd level spells as the 7th-14th levels of the Cleric spellcasting progression should no longer exist. A Couatl casts spells as a 9th level Sorcerer, but you suggest that it be limited to 3rd level spells "as 9th level sorcerers don't exist."

Double standards do not exist in 3.X, this is not 2e and this is not 4e, so if higher levels of class progressions exist for monsters then they exist for PCs as well. PCs can reach 7th or higher level in a given class feature progression as long as they stay within the limit of six character levels. What if a Monk 6 took the feat Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) for +4 levels of Unarmed Strike damage, and were wearing a Monk's Belt for another +4 levels of Unarmed Strike damage? Would he get a laughable 2d6 unarmed strike base damage, or would it be a wasted effort because the 7th+ levels of Monk don't exist? Granted, the Kobold build has a lot of cheese and shouldn't be allowed, but a plain old Kobold Sorcerer 6 with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage would indeed cast as a 7th level Sorcerer, and if he were to gain the White Dragonspawn template (which is entirely up to the DM anyway) then his Sorcerer spellcasting ability would increase to 8th. If that same character were to take the feats Serpent Bloodline (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) and Versatile Spellcaster, he could spend two 4th level spell slots to cast Dominate Person, a 5th level spell. By default these things are within the realm of possibility for a typical 6th level character, and are just as possible in an E6 game without specific houserules prohibiting them.

Riffington
2010-02-17, 02:00 PM
Activating a scroll is a Spell Completion, =/= casting a spell.
Sorry, RAW calls it "Casting a spell from a scroll".


Sure, you qualify, but only on rounds you do cast 3rd level spells from scrolls. If you are ever seperated from those scrolls (or run out): you'd lose the preqs and then the class/feat that required it.

You don't have to ever use the scrolls. Just to have them.
Any more than you lose PrCs if you run out of spells for the day.

If you forbid this, you end up having to invent new rules, or to realize that the rules forbade early entry shenanigans all along.

Rixx
2010-02-17, 02:24 PM
If you use every 3.5 supplement and do everything you can to get around the sixth level cap, maybe E6 isn't the best idea. If your players aren't prone to cheese and munchkinry, there is no reason to place limits on what is available, I think. And anything that relies on technicalities (IE I can sometimes cast a spell that can be interpreted as fourth level) can be readily shot down.