Paid D&D games?

[l33t_fl33t]

Do these things even exist? Would you be willing to pay a "pro" DM to run a game? How much would you be willing to pay?

I don't think that running a good D&D campaign is much different from writing a novel (in fact, quite a few of the D&D books sound exactly like that) so I started thinking, since people already pay for various venues of entertainment, wouldn't they pay to play a D&D campaign?

I believe I would, provided that it was up to par. I suppose what "up to par" means will depend on the price.

Anyway, discuss.

[The Rose Dragon]

There was this guy who did that very thing and posted his experiences on these very boards.

Commander_Keen or something.

[DragoonWraith]

I probably wouldn't, but just because you might be interested, here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109146) by a guy with a similar idea. Should have some good information.

[Comet]

If I had to pay for a D&D game, I would make sure that the rest of the gaming group was as good as the DM. The DM can't make the game alone, it's a group effort and a single asshat can ruin the game for everyone even if the DM is a god.

I probably wouldn't pay for a game of D&D, personally. Perhaps not for any pen&paper game. It just doesn't seem like a thing where you can be 'pro' or 'amateur'.

Incidentally, I think we had another guy here who wanted to be a mercenary-DM a while back. Can't remember what decision he ended up with, though.

Edit: Ninj'd

[Tyndmyr]

I might. I'd have to know how he DMs first, though. Otherwise, I might be paying for something different than what I want. Truly good DMs are sometimes hard to find.

[Nero24200]

I don't think I'd ever pay, nor would I really encourage anyone else to do so. You can't exactly be a "pro" DM.

What's more, those better at DMing (in my experience at least) tend to be so because they know their group well and cateer for them, something that's not likely to happen after only a single game or so. To this end, it's hard for me to image a game I've "paid" for.

Besides, why do it? Unless you are desperately short of people to play with.

[Myou]

Never. When no-one wants to DM I just do it myself. I would hate playing with someone who I was paying to run the game, it makes for a poor relationship. I game with friends not with people who I hire. :smallyuk:

[Tyndmyr]

I see the relationship of friendship as something orthagonal to business relationships. After all, it's not unheard of for someone to become friends with their boss, or with a customer.

There's of course nothing wrong with DMing yourself, but as services go, I've paid far more for entertainment than paying a quarter of a DMs fee(presumably, $15 a hour or something). Hell, I spend more than that on weekly pizza and snacks, let alone books, modules, figures, and whatever else catches my eye.

It would have to have something that makes it preferable to free DMing, though. Scheduling...availability...location, whatever the case may be. Quality of Dm is only one of many factors in getting a game together.

[Optimystik]

I'd probably pay Rich to GM, but not many others. :smalltongue:

I recall a post from Roland saying he was pretty good at it.

[Emmerask]

Well my major issue regarding that would be that I would want a session quality that greatly exceeds normal free to play sessions.

That would include a completely self made and extremely detailed campaign world (ie if I find a book somewhere there better be some information about the author for example) and of course a good story.
The problem with that is that such detailed campaign world require weeks of preparation time, so if the dm wants to make good $/hour it would get pretty expensive I guess.

So even with all those requirements I have I would still hesitate to pay more then a good evening at a cinema so maybe 12$/session (duno us cinema prices ;)) or somesuch.
Problem is that both points are pretty much not compatible 48$ (if 4 player campaign) for maybe 20 hours creating the campaign and story is very very low.

But if it is not that much better then normal sessions why pay?

[Tyndmyr]

Emm, presumably, a paid DM would want to DM more than one game if he wanted to make any money at it. If he used the same setting, and, where appropriate, the same adventures for each group, he could reduce his per-session setup time significantly without impacting the quality of the game.

But yeah, I'd expect a well fleshed out setting. Be it homebrew or a well fleshed out version of an existing setting, it should be done well. I wouldn't pay for a bunch of prefab modules off the internet.

[l33t_fl33t]

Conjob, Nero, I disagree. Having been both victim and torturer [laughs] in the arrangement, I can really say that there is a significant difference between somebody who's been a DM for years and somebody that's just started.

I would also, like many other people, only pay if I truly saw it as being worth it.

Emmerask has a very good point, and I'd like to add something to it. Dungeon Mastering is a multidisciplinary field - you need to be both an actor, a writer, an illustrator AND know the game. And to get paid for it, you'd probably need to be exceptional in all of them. Of course, such harsh requirements and affordable prices don't match.

However, that doesn't mean that it's totally incompatible. Maybe you could attract players on the basis of celebrity status (Gary Gygax as DM anyone?) or by outsourcing - in some countries $50 is a lot of money.

[RandomNPC]

I remember reading about a woman who had her gamers paying all of her bills so she could keep writing story for her game. Apparently she's really good at what she does. Then again thats one of those things i've heard about people hearing about, and we all know how that goes.

Honnestly if my gamers wanted to put five bucks in the tip jar, I'm not going to complain, but at the same time, I'm not asking for money.

[Lysander]

I could imagine one Pro DM running the same campaign hundreds of times, constantly improving the story, characters, dialogue, balance, fleshing out the world to painstaking detail.

Does the party suddenly decide to roam east, off the plot rails? He knows what's there and has a plot hook waiting. Few casters in the party? No worries, this probably came up in this campaign three years ago, he can adjust the BBEG and loot to compensate. Do the PCs decide to turn evil and join the BBEG? No worries, he has the good guys stated out and has a plotline for them as the enemy.

I'm not sure how practical or appealing a pro DM is. It's an interesting idea though.

[Tyndmyr]

Conjob, Nero, I disagree. Having been both victim and torturer [laughs] in the arrangement, I can really say that there is a significant difference between somebody who's been a DM for years and somebody that's just started.

This is also incredibly true. No great DM started out that way...DMing takes a lot of prep time, work, and experience. Sure, eventually you might be able to pull great campaigns out of a hat, and DM a group flawlessly, but I've never, ever seen someone start out that way. Especially if they didn't play before dming.

[Project_Mayhem]

I would likely never pay for a game, but whenever we game round my house I give the DM free cider and snacks. Mainly cause he's more generous with xp when he's pissed.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Man, what I wouldn't do to get paid to DM. I just don't think I've got the stones to put a personal add in the paper or whatever. I mean, there's so many variables... I'd have to give out '1 free session' for a prospective group, to let them know what they're paying for.

And what would I charge? A rate by the hour? A flat fee for one session?

Still, that would be a sweet job. I just don't think there's enough people near where I live that would be willing to pay for such a thing.

Besides, I enjoy DMing for my friends, but having money be a factor would make things odd. Maybe if one of my friends gets absurdly wealthy, they could simply keep me in their home, in a special container, and let me out to run games in exchange for food...

[dukexx]

Unless it was Silverclawshift's DM, I probably wouldn't.

[Samb]

I would pay for a D&D session. But then I think to myself:
"Couldn't I use that money to get Mass Effect 2 instead?"

And that's just what I did.

So here I am, trying to cap Shepperd's level on all classes, and get with sexy blue skin aliens. That would be like 3 sessions for $20 each and less time constraints or dealing all the "unknown" variables everyone else mentioned.

BioWare are awesome DMs. Everyone should play Mass Effect and its sequel. I'm totally hooked.

[herrhauptmann]

Aren't you technically paying for a DM when you play at a Con? Aren't the DMs at the tables paid for it?

[AslanCross]

I would never pay to play, but I wouldn't mind being paid to DM. I do put in a lot of work into it. I'd like to at least be paid for the ink I consume to print all my notes as well as the coffee I drink.

[Aik]

For my style of play ... no, I think it's a horrible idea. It's not up to the DM to bring the fun to the game - it's a group effort. Why would you pay someone to bring in a quarter (or whatever) of the fun?

But then, if you treat RPing more like a novel where the DM does a huge amount of work and the players just go through it without major input, I guess it makes some sense. Not a lot, because people are willing to do it for free, but some. In a more freewheeling game where everyone's firing in lots of creative input, it's a nonsensical idea.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Unless it was Silverclawshift's DM, I probably wouldn't.more explanation?

[Xenogears]

I like playing DnD when I get the chance but mostly as a way to hang out with friends. So no I would never pay someone to DM. If my friends need money (and i have any....) I'd lend them some and if their not my friends I probably wouldn't be playing with them.

[randomhero00]

Naw, I wouldn't pay. The fun comes more from involving one's friends and you don't pay friends.

[Ormur]

I wouldn't have anything against paying a DM in principle. If one were new to roleplaying and wanted an experienced DM then hiring someone might be the quickest way. Still I don't think I'd ever do it, it seems too impersonal. I was too shy to look for other gamers, let alone meet up with a total stranger for something slightly silly like roleplaying (my attitude before ever playing).

[DragoonWraith]

Unless it was Silverclawshift's DM, I probably wouldn't.
This. I would totally pay to join one of his campaigns.

[Thefurmonger]

i think I would be ok with paying, provided the DM was really good.

I would expect a lot of fleshing out of the world, visual aids, music, etc.

[valadil]

I'd consider it but only for a one shot. I'd like to see what a pro DM can do and see what I can learn from it.

[Iceforge]

No, I don't think I would pay for that, except maybe like a token price.

In a LARP I am taking aprt in (or used to take part in, anyway), there was a small price (5-6 USD more or less when converted) pr. session, but that also covered the GMs transportation and various props.

I've considered talking to my current group about making a pool, for instance if all players leave about 10USD pr. month, then those money could go towards various props for the game, but they wouldn't be paying me, as much as chipping into a pool dedicated to buying props

[CockroachTeaParty]

Would a professional DM be expected to have miniatures, etc? Minis are expensive... :smallfrown:

[Emmerask]

Would a professional DM be expected to have miniatures, etc? Minis are expensive... :smallfrown:

Well I would expect it and I would also expect terrain (selfmade or bought) that would be one good reason (although not the only one) to actually pay a professional dm. Because it does elevate the fighting quite a bit I think.

[sonofzeal]

Back in my old town there was this guy, Dan. Dan didn't live there any more, but once every few years he'd show up and run a session, and the moment anyone heard Dan was coming to run a game, there'd be mass celebration followed by a mad scramble for spots in his game.

I could absolutely see him charging for games.



On a tangent, this is basically how LARPs run anyway. You have DM/Plot, and people pay money to play. Granted running a LARP is a lot more complicated than running D&D, but parallels are obvious.

[Paul H]

Hi

I go to conventions where we 'pay' for game slots, normally the GM gets a free game admission ticket in lieu.

Some charity or other is often involved somewhere along the line...
(Conception made about £13,000 this year).

As for professional GM's -their usually just gamers helping out, though there have been a few celebrities involved. (Erik Mona running a Pathfinder Society game at Dragonmeet, for example).

Cheers
Paul H

[Roland St. Jude]

I'd probably pay Rich to GM, but not many others. :smalltongue:

I recall a post from Roland saying he was pretty good at it.

To be clear, I was saying that Rich was very good at it. I mean, I am also very good at it, but I'm far too modest to say so. :smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

To be clear, I was saying that Rich was very good at it. I mean, I am also very good at it, but I'm far too modest to say so. :smalltongue:

what kind of games does Rich run and what kind do you run?

[bosssmiley]

Do these things even exist? Would you be willing to pay a "pro" DM to run a game? How much would you be willing to pay?

If there's one thing the internet should have taught you, it's that you can't beat free. This goes double in a sub-culture that has a marked hobbyist DIY ethic, a community willing to put their hands in their pockets when it matters (Gamers for Haiti (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/rpg_haiti.php?src=haiti), Gygax Memorial Fund (http://www.gygaxmemorialfund.com/), etc.), and some very talented evangelists (http://jrients.blogspot.com/).

The hobby does not need the industry. :smallannoyed:


I don't think that running a good D&D campaign is much different from writing a novel...

Oh wow. This is probably as close to "doing it wrang!" as you can get. RPGs are the antithesis of a pre-plotted, narrated novel. They are - by their very nature as multi-player games - spontaneous, emergent storytelling wherein the players are just as important creators as is the DM.

All that, and payment institutionalises player entitlement, bringing it into the realm of contract or tort law. Imagine the idiocy of nightmare players multiplied by the "sue 'em quick" attitude of contemporary culture.

Never happen you say? How about them MMORG gear-stealing lawsuits? :smallamused:

[J.Gellert]

I haven't even paid for ready modules, I'd never pay for a DM :smalltongue:

[potatocubed]

Technically, if you're part of a group with a 'GM doesn't pay for pizza' policy (and I've been part of a couple) you're already paying them to run for you. Well, bribing, but it's more or less the same principle.

[Haven]

All that, and payment institutionalises player entitlement, bringing it into the realm of contract or tort law. Imagine the idiocy of nightmare players multiplied by the "sue 'em quick" attitude of contemporary culture.


:smalleek: The very thought just brought this idea from "Could be interesting, probably not worth it" to "Shoot anyone in the head who proposes it". Also, hyperbole.

Anyway, this thread has me imagining star players and DMs getting together in a giant stadium for the game. DMs drafting well-known roleplayers for the campaign, color commentary, etc. Sort of like X-Crawl except with the players instead of the characters.

[Gnaritas]

A good DM is worth it's weight in gold.

Assuming he is very good, i like his style, and the other players are on the same level i would definitely be willing to pay for it.

How much, not sure, i guess a maximum of 10$ for every hour of playtime. Anything more would still be worth it, but i would not be able to convince my gf of that.


Well I would expect it and I would also expect terrain (selfmade or bought) that would be one good reason (although not the only one) to actually pay a professional dm. Because it does elevate the fighting quite a bit I think.

Mini's and terrain would be nice, but are not part of my expectations, nor is it very important for a well run game for me.

[KillianHawkeye]

Never pay for something that you can get for free. Especially in this economy. :smallsigh:

[l33t_fl33t]

If there's one thing the internet should have taught you, it's that you can't beat free.

Actually, you can. It's called quality and/or additional features. If it's a business, chances are it's running on cash, not the cumulative happiness of the Internet.


The hobby does not need the industry. :smallannoyed:

Right. And where would we get our books if there was no P&P industry?


Oh wow. This is probably as close to "doing it wrang!" as you can get. RPGs are the antithesis of a pre-plotted, narrated novel. They are - by their very nature as multi-player games - spontaneous, emergent storytelling wherein the players are just as important creators as is the DM.

I was referring to good storytelling and the ability to express oneself. The things writers and good DMs need to have in common. If the game is run online add good writing ability to the list.


All that, and payment institutionalises player entitlement, bringing it into the realm of contract or tort law. Imagine the idiocy of nightmare players multiplied by the "sue 'em quick" attitude of contemporary culture.

No, that's American contemporary culture. I don't think the rest of the world is so trigger happy when it comes to litigations. No offence to Americans.



Never happen you say? How about them MMORG gear-stealing lawsuits? :smallamused:

What about them?

[ericgrau]

DMing is highly involved and worth much more than a few bucks. But gamers often cringe at the idea for paying for anything that's a game. So it ends up as a sort of philanthropy.

[Gnaeus]

On a tangent, this is basically how LARPs run anyway. You have DM/Plot, and people pay money to play. Granted running a LARP is a lot more complicated than running D&D, but parallels are obvious.

Having run larps (local, national, and at cons), I can tell you that you are not usually paying the DM. There are a couple of larps that tour the con-circuit and are for profit, but in general you are probably paying for the game locations, reimbursement for supplies, etc.

[Ravens_cry]

Would a professional DM be expected to have miniatures, etc? Minis are expensive... :smallfrown:
I would think so. Yes, they are expensive, but if your paying for a professional, you expect a professional service.

[l33t_fl33t]

The more I keep thinking about it, the more getting paid to DM sounds like a stupid idea. And since I admit to it myself, I guess that's saying something.

Without considering the financial investment (books, dice, miniatures) you'd have to be an awesome storyteller, know how to act the part and probably provide some custom made visual props (maps, character and location sketches, etc). All this for say, $40 a session hour (assuming $10 per person and a party of 4)?

You'd be better off specialising and raking in good money in just one of those fields (actor, writer or illustrator) than DMing for cash.

Still, it engages the imagination - what WOULD a paid D&D campaign look like?

[Gnaritas]

You'd be better off specialising and raking in good money in just one of those fields (actor, writer or illustrator) than DMing for cash.

Oh, but it was never the discussion if DM-ing for cash would be smart as a profession.

It is merely a small refund for time spent.

I notice i am spending quite some time during the week as a DM, but i enjoy it and have no urge what so ever to ask money for that.

[Gnaeus]

Without considering the financial investment (books, dice, miniatures) you'd have to be an awesome storyteller, know how to act the part and probably provide some custom made visual props (maps, character and location sketches, etc). All this for say, $40 a session hour (assuming $10 per person and a party of 4)?

I think a lot of gamers would jump at the chance to do that for $40/hour. I know some pretty solid DMs who are making minimum wage. The bigger problem is going to be finding people who will pay 40/hour to do it.

[Optimystik]

To be clear, I was saying that Rich was very good at it. I mean, I am also very good at it, but I'm far too modest to say so. :smalltongue:

I admit, I could have phrased that more clearly :smallbiggrin:

But if his campaigns are half as epic as OotS, I don't think I'd ever put down my dice!

[Gnaritas]

I think a lot of gamers would jump at the chance to do that for $40/hour. I know some pretty solid DMs who are making minimum wage. The bigger problem is going to be finding people who will pay 40/hour to do it.

Do remember it's 40/hour of game time.

As a DM, I spend at least as much time as preparation...

[Gnaeus]

Do remember it's 40/hour of game time.

As a DM, I spend at least as much time as preparation...

If you are making under 10$ an hour in your day job, $40/hour in game time is a good deal even if you have to spend 2-3 hours prep time for every hour at the table. I promise that they would rather DM than work retail even at the same pay.

[l33t_fl33t]

I think a lot of gamers would jump at the chance to do that for $40/hour. I know some pretty solid DMs who are making minimum wage. The bigger problem is going to be finding people who will pay 40/hour to do it.

I think you're underestimating what it takes. I'm sure some people might jump at the idea, but think about it for a moment;

Are they good enough to earn that money? "Pretty solid" and "$40 an hour" aren't exactly on the same level. I can't see a person on minimum wage (since there's usually a reason for him being paid minimum wage) just jumping in and asking for $40 an hour to run a game and actually getting paid.

I think we're on the same level here, but there's some miscommunication flying around - finding players is only a problem if the service is not worth the money. In short, you took what I said and turned it around - to you the problem isn't finding the DM, but finding the players. To me, the players aren't the problem, the DM is, since if he's good enough to charge, he could probably earn a lot more by doing something else.



If you are making under 10$ an hour in your day job, $40/hour in game time is a good deal even if you have to spend 2-3 hours prep time for every hour at the table. I promise that they would rather DM than work retail even at the same pay.

You're making the assumption that running a game is a minimum wage job with minimum wage skills. I assure you, it's not. Not if you want to get paid that is.

@Gnaritas

I really don't see the point in that. Either you charge with the intention of making a profit or you run it for free. I really can't see a future in an "at cost" business model.

I mean sure, you could call it recuperating the expenses, but you already have pooling for that.

[Gnaritas]

If you are making under 10$ an hour in your day job, $40/hour in game time is a good deal even if you have to spend 2-3 hours prep time for every hour at the table. I promise that they would rather DM than work retail even at the same pay.

Ok, however (and this may not be fair), i believe a exceptionally good DM needs to be smart, creative, organised and innovative.
Average Joe making less than 10$ an hour probably isn't all of those.

Yes, this may not be true in all cases.

[Gnaeus]

Ok, however (and this may not be fair), i believe a exceptionally good DM needs to be smart, creative, organised and innovative.
Average Joe making less than 10$ an hour probably isn't all of those.

Yes, this may not be true in all cases.

Have you seen the statistics about how many people have professional degrees and wind up working retail? I've got a fracking law degree, and if someone offered me $20/hour tomorrow doing something fun with enough hours to feed my family I would leap on it. Add in all the people with liberal arts PHDs who can't find work in their field because they graduate hundreds of them for every paid position.

Then you throw in the people who didn't quite graduate, or who have degrees but have some personal trait (like visible piercings or tattoos) or disability that keeps them from working most full time jobs. Does that include any gamers you know? I knew one DM who couldn't get a job because he wore his cat eye contacts to a sure-thing interview, so he spent 6 months making burritos. The skills you need to be a successful DM are not necessarily job qualifications.

I would almost guarantee that if you advertised a good paying job as a professional DM, you would be flooded with applications.

[Gnaritas]

Does that include any gamers you know?

Nope sorry, most gamers i know all have "decent" jobs, those that do not also do not have the capability. Perhaps the economy here is not as bad as where you live.


I would almost guarantee that if you advertised a good paying job as a professional DM, you would be flooded with applications.

Oh yes, i completely agree.

And how many of them will actually be able to provide the high-standards expected of being a paid DM? My guess would be around 1%.

[ericgrau]

If you are making under 10$ an hour in your day job, $40/hour in game time is a good deal even if you have to spend 2-3 hours prep time for every hour at the table. I promise that they would rather DM than work retail even at the same pay.
How many good DMs are merely working retail? As said it's not a minimum wage skill job. I think $15 and up is more like it, and there is a bit of prep time. $30-$40/hour isn't unreasonable considering that there are actually more hours outside of game time.

As for paying $40 for a 4 hour session, that could be a problem for some. A paid DM would be best done with a group of 6, so that at $30/hour it could be $5/hour per person. If you can't afford that then you probably can't afford paid gaming in general. Heck I dunno how you can afford to drive more than a few miles to game with friends.

[Paul H]

Hi

I don't mind paying for games at a few cons per year for charity. Sure, we pay something each week at our club, but that's to pay for the room.

I don't think people's salary is a good anaology of how good they GM. It's all down to the GM, their passion and 'people skills'. (I hate that PC phrase).

Scenarios are stories where players take over & develop individual characters within a given rule set. Those who can 'direct' or lead these characters within the storyline make the best GM's. (IMHO).

Cheers
Paul H

[Escheton]

I like the idea, given the build up to the next session and considering your char while toiling at work bored out of your mind and the potential iawesomeness of a pro dm. However, If I was willing to spend money on stuff like that I'd be a vip ddo member. Play with my free tabletop group, still have lotsa fun and play the pregenerated realtime adventures that free players dont get.
Or is mentioning ddo a strict taboo here?

[Mystic Muse]

is mentioning ddo a strict taboo here?

I don't see why it would be.:smallconfused: Unless it means something dirty and not Dungeons and Dragons insider.

[Escheton]

its the online game, and this is a forum about the tabletop version, I suspected there might be one

[lyko555]

Unless it was Silverclawshift's DM, I probably wouldn't.

^^ what that dude said

[krossbow]

I still can't understand such a concept. It just seems... insane.

Its just doesn't seem like "paid" and "dm" don't go together. Either way, as i Remember it, didn't someone post an advertisement for doing that a while ago on this board, and then eventually in the equivilent of him breaking down it tears, calling things off, and explaining how it was a dumb move brought on by the death of his father and him needing to get a job?



Edit: I WILL admit however that it might be okay to pay the DM if they provide food, snacks, ect. for the get together, in order to recompasse for such expenses, but thats it.

[Fitz10019]

D&D is designed as a game among peers, and peers shouldn't pay each other to DM. This is why this sounds so wrong, except for the possible corner case of a D&D star being paid to DM. Stars are not our peers -- that's why in the corner case it seems okay to pay.

I can see someone creating a kids' entertainment business where the entertainment is a well-run game. You would be an alternative to hiring a clown or a magician (again). You would need to be in a big population center for this to provide regular work.

You couldn't set up a pay-to-enter game club, because it would be a matter of days before the youngsters hit the web to optimize and then see on the boards that they can play regularly without you. Your only hope is then is that the parents specifically want the kids to play in one place under your supervision -- and at that point you're a glorified babysitter (or not so glorified). The bright side is that babysitting rates x5 or x6 can really add up.