PDA

View Full Version : An Alternative Mage System



Melamoto
2010-02-12, 04:03 PM
Inspired by Final Fantasy, most notably X, and titled "Mage System" because it changes the classes, not the magic.

So, while playing some Final Fantasy, I was thinking about how it used magic. Some of the characters who used magic could not really be described as casters at all; they were simply martial characters who knew the spells. I thought about this, and how it would translate to D&D. I thought about simply considering that all the characters with magic had taken a multiclass to wizard or sorcerer, but that made no sense; they were just using abilities granted to them by their martial class. They could advance magic and melee at the same time. So I thought about what this would like in D&D. And so I came up with this idea.

Basically, every character has a BAB, HD Type, Good and Bad saves, etc. And so, I figured that this could also apply to caster levels. Caster levels would progress at different rates depending on class, in the same way as BAB. Classes like Wizard would have +1 per level, while classes like Fighter would have +0.5 per level. Some classes, such as Bard and Paladin, would gain +0.75 per level. Prestige classes would simply give a value per level.

Now, this system has some disadvantages, and there are some parts that I haven't figured out yet. These are:

Lost level PrCs
There is no way I can see to handle PrCs that are only supposed to lose a level or 2 of casting without sending them straight to the extremes (0.75 or 1), or by going into icky fractions (+0.85 casting per level? No).

Spell Lists
How do you select spells? I don't know. A few ideas came upon me while thinking about this. One was to give everyone access to a basic list and let them use feats to gain access to different ones. Another was to give them access to a list with basic spells, and then pick a new path of spells at levels 5, 11, and 17. Since this was inspired by Final Fantasy, I imagined these being things like "White Magic" (Defensive), "Black Magic" (Offensive), etc. Maybe Blue Magic could find a way in there too. I love Blue Magic.

Ability Scores
This is a problem in 2 ways. The first of these is the massive penalties to fighters who didn't spec for high mental stats, and in fact the inability to cast spells at all. This can be mostly solved by removing the stat requirement to cast spells, but it leaves the uncomfortable feeling that a fighter with an 18 casting stat will have no advantage over a similar fighter with a 6 casting stat, apart from +6 on DCs (When the fighters will likely be using buffs).
The other problem is what exactly is the casting stat? It would make sense to make it int, but all of the other mental stats have an equal claim. It could start as int, and be changeable with feats, but it feels cheap to make someone pay a feat for choosing a different character concept. It could be chosen on character creation, but being made to choose such a vital detail and be unable to change it without retraining also seems a bit annoying. My current personal favourite is that it is just the highest of your mental stats.

Meanwhile, the advantages of this are:

Melee gets a nice thing
This doesn't really make sense on the one hand, in that it's just giving melee the tools of the overpowered classes. On the other hand, it's giving melee the tools of the overpowered classes. And they can specialize in different areas from the other casters, so they can just be buffing up with things like Divine Power.

Better Balance
Many of the common problems associated with casters vs. non-casters are removed. No more grease-stopped barbarians, just cast fly before you rage. Forcecage? Dispel. Or Dimension Door. Wizards will undoubtedly remain the most powerful class by far due to their access to 9th level magic, but everyone else has at least 5th.

More versatile parties
For a long time, it has been necessary to include a caster of some kind into the group. Well, now that person is anyone. And since casters can usually take over any role, so can anyone. You could now, at higher levels, get away with a party of 5 fighters and not suffer too greatly. You have Knock, Invisibility, Silence, Fly, and all sorts of neat spells to bypass challenges.

The Monk
You can give it +0.75 casting and call it a day.


What do you all think of this? Would it be worth putting together, or does it simply have too many problems? How would you handle things?

Melamoto
2010-02-13, 05:17 AM
I really hate self bumping. However, I hate falling to page 2 without any responses even more.

I'll try and justify this bump with another interesting note.

Add ToB to the mix
Classes could also all be given a level of maneuver advancement, based on BAB. So everyone would have martial maneuvers and casting, at different levels of power depending on how they are focused. Alternatively, there could be classes with no casting and martial advancement, and classes with casting and no martial advancement. Sort of breaks apart the original idea, but makes things a whole lot more interesting.

erikun
2010-02-13, 07:16 AM
Aww, and here I was hoping for a conversation about Mage: The Ascension/Awakening.

My first question is: what happens to gish classes/prestige classes? Stuff like the Warmage, Duskblade, Eldritch Knight, and Abjurant Champion? Full BAB and full spellcaster progression seems a bit much when they're learning full Wizard spellcasting, but dropping it down to 3/4 spellcaster progression seems to remove the whole point of the classes. Would they not be appropriate for the system anymore?

What happens to magickey-yet-not-spellcaster classes, such as the Warlock, Binder, and so on? Would they have 1/2 spellcaster progression on top of their own abilities, higher progression for being "casterish" classes, or no progression because they are already psudo-casters?

Perhaps the biggest question involves how are you planning on dividing up spell slots. There is the Generic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster), although this seems to push classes towards certain classes. Factorium (INT), Monk (WIS), or Paladin (CHA) would get the most bonus spells because they already have the required stats, while something like a Fighter or Barbarian will have a much lower mental stats, resulting in them picking mostly utility spells.

Melamoto
2010-02-13, 07:30 AM
Aww, and here I was hoping for a conversation about Mage: The Ascension/Awakening.

My first question is: what happens to gish classes/prestige classes? Stuff like the Warmage, Duskblade, Eldritch Knight, and Abjurant Champion? Full BAB and full spellcaster progression seems a bit much when they're learning full Wizard spellcasting, but dropping it down to 3/4 spellcaster progression seems to remove the whole point of the classes. Would they not be appropriate for the system anymore?They already had Full BAB and could progress full Spellcasting before, with the exception of ones that lose 1 or 2 levels of casting (Which I mentioned in the OP)


What happens to magickey-yet-not-spellcaster classes, such as the Warlock, Binder, and so on? Would they have 1/2 spellcaster progression on top of their own abilities, higher progression for being "casterish" classes, or no progression because they are already psudo-casters?That's actually a pretty good point; I hadn't thought of that. They could be different "paths" of magic, so that people could choose to learn them instead of normal casting. One of my ideas for ToB classes was that they would gain no casting progression in exchange for special progressions. But the former would be more balanced. Just gotta figure out how to do it. ATM this is mostly a concept, but I'll have to think about that some more.


Perhaps the biggest question involves how are you planning on dividing up spell slots. There is the Generic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster), although this seems to push classes towards certain classes. Factorium (INT), Monk (WIS), or Paladin (CHA) would get the most bonus spells because they already have the required stats, while something like a Fighter or Barbarian will have a much lower mental stats, resulting in them picking mostly utility spells.
That's part of the ability scores problem. I feel it's too restricting to have someone choose ability dependency and never be able to change it, but that's how the rest of the game works. The characters with lower mental stats would be intended to get fewer spell slots than those with higher, otherwise there would be no point to it. It does stealth nerf the fighter and barbarian compared to other martial classes though, so that's another thing to think about.

Dimers
2010-02-13, 07:58 AM
This concept will obviously need a lot of polishing and decision-making, but it's got major advantages. It mimics existing systems in an understandable way, which makes it an easier 'sell'. It fits with a trope of high fantasy today, giving everyone access to a thematic set of special abilities. And it closes the gap between the extreme ends of the power imbalance.

I think that what needs addressing is the opposite end of that imbalance -- take away something from the worldbreakers, rather than (or at least in addition to) granting more to the have-nots. And I like your concept despite that preference. It has what is usually these days called a "simple elegance".

Don't worry too much about requiring one particular casting stat per class, or having it unchangeable. People don't generally make their characters to morph over time in fundamental ways, so the fundamental stat can be static. As long as you spread out the distribution of stats to different classes, players will just pick one that roughly fits their character concept. And don't overlook the physical stats as casting stats! -- Con seems pretty appropriate for a lot of barbaric powers, for instance.

jseah
2010-02-13, 08:07 AM
About PrCs missing casting level:

Just have the casting progression be 0.5 for those two levels then 1 for the rest.

eg.
A normal 4/5 casting PrC giving 0/1/1/1/1 to casting classes would now give:
0.5/0.5/1/1/1

That way, they retain the same 4/5 casting progression.

If you want to make casting progression follow the patterns of giving +0.5 minimum, then 0.5 /1/1/1/1 will do. Just round down CL and that'll do. (so two 4/5 progression classes would become 9/10)

Melamoto
2010-02-13, 08:50 AM
This concept will obviously need a lot of polishing and decision-making, but it's got major advantages. It mimics existing systems in an understandable way, which makes it an easier 'sell'. It fits with a trope of high fantasy today, giving everyone access to a thematic set of special abilities. And it closes the gap between the extreme ends of the power imbalance.It did occur to me that this would only work in a high magic setting as well, or at least it would make the setting high magic. After all, a world where level 2 commoners can cast 1st level spells is a bit different to standard expectations.


I think that what needs addressing is the opposite end of that imbalance -- take away something from the worldbreakers, rather than (or at least in addition to) granting more to the have-nots. And I like your concept despite that preference. It has what is usually these days called a "simple elegance".When everyone is powerful, nobody's powerful. The caster level will apply to Racial HD as well (Making them more playable as an added bonus), so your average Ogre will likely have things like See Invisibility, Fly, and so on, making a lot of standard Wizard "You-have-no-way-of-stopping-me" tricks no longer exist. Wizards are still overpowered, but only due to stupid abilities like Time Stop and Shapechange. Which can be quick-nerfed by most DMs.


Don't worry too much about requiring one particular casting stat per class, or having it unchangeable. People don't generally make their characters to morph over time in fundamental ways, so the fundamental stat can be static. As long as you spread out the distribution of stats to different classes, players will just pick one that roughly fits their character concept. And don't overlook the physical stats as casting stats! -- Con seems pretty appropriate for a lot of barbaric powers, for instance.
I am settling on the idea of making them choose 1 stat and keep it static. If they really need to change it for whatever reason, they can just ask the DM for retraining. I don't like the idea of using physical stats for casting though. It could be done, but even if allowed I'd say that they would have to spend a feat on it, because it seems rather silly. Wizards could just make Con their casting stat, dump intelligence, and be tough as barbarians. Same for...pretty much everyone. Maybe Rogues will want dexterity. Frenzied Berserkers who raise their strength up to 40 getting a ton of bonus spells for it. Doesn't really seem right. Physical Stats for combat, Mental Stats for magic.

Gametime
2010-02-13, 12:35 PM
This reminds me of the Magic Rating (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm) variant from Unearthed Arcana. Of course, Magic Rating uses 1, 1/2, and 1/4 as the fractions, and it only affects caster level. Similar concept, though.

I like your plan. I think it doesn't mesh particularly well with a lot of extra classes, though; things like ToB, Binders, Warlocks, and the like are pretty well balanced as alternatives to magic. You might be able to keep some of the "alternative magic" base classes in, but they're going to start looking pretty unattractive compared to classes that get real spells plus normal class features. At the other end of the spectrum, ToB classes are either going to stick out as magicless or be really hard to deal with.

I think this system would be a good way to make core games more balanced, but when you start introducing extra magic systems it gets much fuzzier.

Dimers
2010-02-13, 12:58 PM
The caster level will apply to Racial HD as well (Making them more playable as an added bonus), so your average Ogre will likely have things like See Invisibility, Fly, and so on ...

Oh, nice! :smallsmile:


I am settling on the idea of making them choose 1 stat and keep it static. ... I don't like the idea of using physical stats for casting though.

If the player gets to choose one, then I'd agree that it needs to be mental, with a few rare exceptions. Magic that's flavored as pouring forth one's own vital energy could be based on Con, and minor prestidigitation/illusion sorts of magic could conceivably be Dex, but those should certainly be the exception (perhaps only available to certain classes, perhaps with a feat). Primary casters just shouldn't have the option at all, and I can't justify Strength in any way.

Melamoto
2010-02-13, 01:18 PM
If the player gets to choose one, then I'd agree that it needs to be mental, with a few rare exceptions. Magic that's flavored as pouring forth one's own vital energy could be based on Con, and minor prestidigitation/illusion sorts of magic could conceivably be Dex, but those should certainly be the exception (perhaps only available to certain classes, perhaps with a feat). Primary casters just shouldn't have the option at all, and I can't justify Strength in any way.

I have been thinking about handling alternate magic systems in a different way. Straight from level 1, you have to pick a type of magic. It could be from one of the categories mentioned before, i.e. the traditional final fantasy magics, or it could be stuff like invocations, pact magic, truenaming, etc. Still not sure how to handle ToB. I was thinking that they could run parallel in each class, but that might lead to things getting a bit too complicated.

ericgrau
2010-02-13, 02:39 PM
Lost level PrCs: lost levels become 0.5 levels, rest remain at 1
Spell Lists: Pick one for each class. Fighter gets wizard, barbarian gets sorceror, bard gets sorcerer and/or bard, paladin gets cleric and/or paladin, ranger gets druid and/or ranger. Etc.
Ability Scores: You mostly need these for save DCs and not all spells have save DCs. Especially the ones that melee like. A minor ability score boosted by items at higher levels is sufficient for the 10 + spell level requirement.
Melee gets a nice thing: Yes it does.
Better Balance: Like most ideas that took 1/100th the time the original designers put in, this is questionable. But as casters and non-casters tend to be apples and oranges, there's probably nothing to compare and thus nothing to balance anyway. Regardless I think this system could make an interesting campaign.
More Versatile Parties: Yeup.
The Monk: Not touching this.