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Math_Mage
2010-02-12, 07:26 PM
Before we begin--I'm aware that I just paired a bottom-tier character with a top-tier character. I'm aware that serious optimization will leave serious imbalances in this two-person party. The adventure has already begun, however, and these base classes are fixed. No changing that.

The combination presents some interesting challenges for optimization, most notably the lack of a full-BAB melee party member. This means that straight-up damage dealing has to be handled by characters that aren't necessarily meant for that. Complicating matters is the fact that my wizard has Evocation and Enchantment as banned schools (conjuration specialization), which is usually a great idea but further limits damage-dealing capacity for the party. If this has to change, I can change it--Necromancy is an alternative to Evocation for banned school, since my wizard's alignment is CG. (The monk is LN.)

The adventure began these characters at level 1, and we've only done one session so far, but leveling will be relatively rapid (they're already level 2), so it's likely that we'll get at least up into the low teens in this campaign. Right now, my planned strategy is to specialize the Monk for Stunning Fist and AoO's and tripping--if Stunning Fist is a subpar strategy, I can rebuild around the Passive Way ACF from Complete Warrior to focus completely on tripping (per your recommendations). The latter approach has the benefit of Improved Trip from level 2 instead of level 6. The wizard will control the battlefield, buff the monk (notably with Enlarge Person to give reach for AoO's), and debuff foes.

Scope: Core, the Completes, Unearthed Arcana (but no flaws!), Spell and Magic Item Compendia.

Charsheets:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=184097
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=183964

Advice?

Xenogears
2010-02-12, 07:30 PM
Stunning can be really good if properly optimized but only against certain types of opponents. If say most of the enemy are undead it is useless. If they are mostly humanoids then grab Freezing the Lifeblood (originally from OA but IIRC updated to Complete Warrior), maximize wisdom, and start shutting everything down.

So it depends on expected enemies. Trip has the advantage of working on more enemies.

JonestheSpy
2010-02-12, 07:35 PM
Scope: Core, the Completes, Unearthed Arcana (but no flaws!), Spell and Magic Item Compendia.

Advice?

Perhaps you could convince your DM to allow some of the reasonable improvements to monks that have been brought up in this forum, as it might be a bit late to adopt one of the wholesale rewrites: full BAB, faster AC progression, Wisdom bonus to damage, etc.

Xenogears
2010-02-12, 07:48 PM
Scope: Core, the Completes, Unearthed Arcana (but no flaws!), Spell and Magic Item Compendia.
Advice?

You might want to see about getting some other books in there to help the monk. Add OA and he can take a 1lvl dip in Shiba Protecter at lvl 8 if they stay monk lower if they multi-class into a full BAB class. This give Wis to attack and Damage so they can dump str atleast. That makes them a little less mad and thats a start...

Kallisti
2010-02-12, 08:26 PM
Play a troubleshooter-type Batman wizard, load up on buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control, and let the monk go crazy on the debuffed enemies with his buffed fists of fury as they try to flee through the Black Tentacles and get slaughtered by the Legion of Sentinels.

Pluto
2010-02-12, 08:49 PM
I'm not sure I understand the situation: are you playing both characters in a 2-character party? 2 characters in a larger group?

TLN's style of obsessive Divining will probably go far here. Monk scouting shouldn't hurt either (a bit of Rogue probably wouldn't be unwise).
Forewarning + Summoning/Buffing will make your life much easier.

Don't focus on Stunning at low levels. The uses/day is abysmal.
I find it has a sweetspot in levels 8-14, when immunities aren't too common and when uses per day are somewhat reasonable. Beyond that, I've never seen it help much.

Monk/Cleric/Sacred Exorcist Fist is pretty strong with your sources. If you suspect your Monk will be having trouble, it can solve a great many problems (even without silly text-trumps-table spell progression).

deuxhero
2010-02-12, 08:55 PM
Unarmed Swordsage/Wizard/JPM. See if the DM will let kung fu genius/somethingIcan'tspellbutstartswithac monk work on the USS wis to ac.

Flickerdart
2010-02-12, 09:06 PM
Unarmed Swordsage/Wizard/JPM. See if the DM will let kung fu genius/somethingIcan'tspellbutstartswithac monk work on the USS wis to ac.
Ascetic Mage? That's Sorcerer only, I believe.

sonofzeal
2010-02-12, 09:12 PM
Evocation and Conjuration have a lot of overlap; you can get away with banning Conj (though it hurts), but Evocation has a lot of the battlefield control and blasting spells you need to cover the gaps. Evo gives you most of your Wall spells (except Prismatic Wall), all of the Hand line, and all of the non-Conjuration Force effects. Even just in core, Evo is probably #2 for Battlefield Control (Conj is #1 by a huge margin; Abjuration is probably #3, with Illusion as #4). If Conj is banned, I highly recommend keeping Evocation strong to help cover the BC side of things.

Math_Mage
2010-02-13, 12:06 AM
Man, lots of responses. Whew.

This is only a two-person adventuring party. I play the Wizard, but I'm in charge of both charsheets.

Here is the basic structure I'm hoping to get for the Monk:
1: Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus Feat), Dodge (Human), Combat Expertise
Decisive Strike instead of Flurry of Blows, for the AoO coming with...

2: Combat Reflexes (Monk Bonus Feat)
Evasion

3: Deft Opportunist
Prayerful Meditation instead of Still Mind

4: Holy Strike instead of Ki Strike (Magic)--but how does this work for LN?

6: Improved Trip (Monk Bonus Feat), Pain Touch

This seems like an excellent exit point for the Monk, but I'm not sure what to multiclass to. Fist of the Forest from Complete Champion has been recommended, but that's only 3 levels out of the remaining 14 and I'm not sure which of those 14 to dedicate to it anyway. Cleric to Enlightened Fist is an appealing option...Is Sacred Fist better? I can't really tell.

With the current build, the main advantage will be AoO's until tripping and stunning fist really come online with their corresponding feats at level 6.

Other feats that have caught my eye are Defensive Throw, Elusive Target, Law and Travel Devotion, Improved Natural Attack, Freezing the Lifeblood (thanks, Xenogears), Ability Focus (Stunning Fist). I haven't really looked into feats that require high-level entry prereqs like BAB +8.

Jeesh, the Wizard is comparatively easy to optimize by comparison. Take some early no-brainers like Cloudy Conjuration and Improved Initiative, add some metamagic feats (and Metamagic School Focus), throw in summoning where necessary. Tossup between Magus of the Arcane Order, Paragnostic Apostle, Master Specialist, and Archmage for prestige.

sonofzeal
2010-02-13, 12:13 AM
Have you considered Tashalatora for the Monk? Basically, one level of Monk and the rest in PsiWar, with the right two feats, lets you keep most of your fundamental Monkness but get PsiWar powers and bonus feats. I'm playing one now and they work very well.

(edit) nvm, checked the books allowed list. Still, Psiwars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)are SRD, and the two feats don't add anything except letting you combine them with Monks.

SurlySeraph
2010-02-13, 12:14 AM
A couple spells I recommend are Blood Wind (swift action, lets you make unarmed attacks at range for a round) and Chill Touch (cheap extra damage to your punches). A trick I enjoy is taking the Fell Drain metamagic and applying it to Chill Touch, so your punches deal negative levels; since you get an extra attack from Flurry of Blows, you can inflict a lot of negative levels quite quickly by making touch attacks.

Law Devotion is a good choice, especially if you go Sacred Fist; if you go Enlightened Fist I would strongly recommend Knowledge Devotion. Improved Natural Attack is a good source of damage, but may or may not end be worth it to you depending on how much damage you can add with your spells. Ability Focus might be worthwhile if you take Freezing the Lifeblood, but if you're not relying on Stunning Fist a lot then there's not that much point.

EDIT: And I would not take that many levels in Monk. Go into your casting class and then the either Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist as quickly as you can.

erikun
2010-02-13, 12:18 AM
Convince your DM that the Monk's fists count as manufactured weapons, so that your Wizard can cast Magic Weapon (+ Greater) on your Monk. One of the biggest drawbacks of the Monk is that their fists aren't encanted, so giving them a +X enchantment will give them a bonus to hit, bypass DR, and allow them to hit incorporeal.

Sacred Fist gives up the Monk's standard progression for full BAB, some minor abilities and either 8/10 or 10/10 spell progression. The big kicker is that they can never use a weapon, not even a Monk weapon, so no sling or quarterstaff. You can find the Sacred Fist in Complete Divine.

[EDIT]
I should probably mention the Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm). If nothing else, the ability to learn Expansion and Psionic Lion's Charge are worth it.

Soranar
2010-02-13, 01:34 AM
Man, lots of responses. Whew.

This is only a two-person adventuring party. I play the Wizard, but I'm in charge of both charsheets.

Alright so you need to fulfill 6 roles to work well. The arcanist, the tank, the battlefield controller, the healer, the detector and the skillmonkey.

A human wizard with high intel and the feat able learner can fill most of these roles: arcanist, battlefield control, skillmonkey (trap detection via summons, knock for locks, points in various skills with a high Int bonus for the rest)

healing can be handled through magic items with daily charges and healing kits

that leaves a tank and hopefully a secondary battlefield controller (big order for a monk) and a detector (high spot and listen saves lives)


Here is the basic structure I'm hoping to get for the Monk:
1: Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus Feat), Dodge (Human), Combat Expertise
Decisive Strike instead of Flurry of Blows, for the AoO coming with...

2: Combat Reflexes (Monk Bonus Feat)
Evasion

3: Deft Opportunist
Prayerful Meditation instead of Still Mind

4: Holy Strike instead of Ki Strike (Magic)--but how does this work for LN?

6: Improved Trip (Monk Bonus Feat), Pain Touch

With the current build, the main advantage will be AoO's until tripping and stunning fist really come online with their corresponding feats at level 6.


AoO builds are great, especially the ones using reach weapons. But when you use natural weapons without reach... they really lose in interest. Remember that a monk is not forced to hit stuff with his hands, you can use a kama weapon. Sure you lose a bit of damage but you gain reach and 1.5 your strength from using a two-handed weapon. Eberron also lets you flurry with certain weapons (polearms, longspear, longsword or two-bladed sword)

If you insist on the monk for whatever reason. Well 2 levels isn't completely bad and monks have great multiclassing feats (ascetic tracker, rogue, mage, etc). Besides you need the versatility in such a restrained party. I recommend a monk/ranger if you insist on not having 2 spellcasters (monk/druid would be really good and the alignment fits).

So a monk/ranger build like the following one would get nearly as many feats as a fighter with a distinct monk feel to it. As for enchanting your monk's hands well if your DM won't allow it I suggest the magic fang and greater magic fang spells from being a ranger (your hands are natural weapons after all). But two-weapon fighting isn't allowed with unarmed strikes (unless your DM approves) and rapid shot doesn't work very well with a tank build. That leaves a wildshaped ranger build but that won't work until level 7 (unless you can go monk1/ranger5), till then you'd simply be an unarmed fighter with minor spellcasting and this might be far from what you had in mind

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-13, 01:51 AM
...wow. I think we've found the one party example where Giacomo's guide will be useful.

As the primary damage dealer, the monk will be a good target for a lot of the buffs that would otherwise be less than optimal in a larger party.

I'd recommend the wizard focusing on extend spell and buff/debuff/combat control, and let the monk hit things. I'm aware that you're relying on the monk for something, but there's only so much a wizard can do singlehandedly, and you don't seem to have any other options for choice of damage dealer.

Pluto
2010-02-13, 04:31 AM
Until level 13ish, Monk 2/Mystic Ranger X could be very nice. Especially with the Trapfinding Ranger variant. (Spells synergistic with TWF are just as good with decisive strike or flurry. Wisdom synergy, Favored Enemy (Arcanists) and full Monk damage could make this especially interesting.)

...Actually, this may just be my next character.
[edit:]
Sources. Right. Scratch that.

Monk 2/Druid 4/Sacred Fist X is about the same in the end (especially with the Ranger/Monk ability ACF from Unearthed Arcana).

But I am usually wary of more than 2 Monk levels. Get flurry, Evasion, AC and your bonus feats and get out. Aligned strikes and situational bonuses to your already ample saves aren't worth passing the opportunity of caster levels.

Math_Mage
2010-02-13, 06:08 AM
Oh, before responding to each post, a correction: PHB II is available as well. Also, one quick very specific optimization question: in this scenario, is the Abrupt Jaunt ACF worth losing the familiar for the wizard? I know it's ordinarily very powerful, I'm just wondering whether the potential extra actions granted by a familiar will make a bigger difference in a 2-person party than in the typical one.

Lol @ PheonixRivers' Giacomo comment.

But yeah, Extend Spell is gonna be the 3rd-level feat, and the spell list will follow pretty closely on the Batman/God buff-debuff-BC mold, with minor adjustments to account for the fact that this is a two-person party. (At least for now--there's a distinct possibility of acquiring a third in the moderately near future.) With regard to damage dealing, would that make Necromancy a better school to ban than Evocation? On the one hand, I was combing through the list of level-1 spells bemoaning the lack of actual damage to deal (this was before I noticed that the Lesser Orbs of X are in Conjuration). On the other hand, there's the whole 'why do damage when you can alter reality?' thing...

Soranar, I'm a little confused by your comments about weapons.
1) Enlarge Person is a staple of the build, and gives reach.
2) The kama is not a reach weapon, and in fact is a light weapon, meaning only the ordinary Str bonus applies. A quarterstaff would let me apply the 1.5x bonus, but since my monk's Str is the third stat (+2 mod, after +3 to Dex and Wis), I'm not sure how much difference that makes. A spiked chain is a reach weapon, but not a monk weapon (though still juicy for AoO)--which means a feat spent on EWP. Might be worth it anyway, of course.

The general advice of getting reach for an AoO build and using a good weapon makes sense, I'm just not sure how the specific suggestions you made realize those general goals.

Ranger, Mystic Ranger, and Druid are all interesting choices (though choosing the Druid would just make me feel like I was handing my friend a nerfed Druid...but that still might be better than the alternative). I don't have the time and energy to invest into dealing with psionics, though. Not only are these the first characters I've put serious work into optimizing, that's my first wizard build you're looking at, and I spent hours and hours combing through TLN's and Treantmonk's guides to get a handle on the class (I haven't even tried to fluff this yet). The time I've spent up to now trying to deal with my admittedly stupid choice of Monk is another layer of straw on the camel's back (if I may torture that metaphor). Doing a Psywarrior after all that would just be too much for one campaign.

SurlySeraph, thanks for the spell suggestions. Blood Wind I find an interesting choice, but it doesn't really synergize with the AoO of the Monk, and it's in Evocation, which my Wizard banned. Chill Touch seems to be simply ineffective, as it's a melee touch attack for my 10-Str Wizard when I could be casting Grease. Unless you mean the Monk should take a casting class looking to use Chill Touch? Maybe. But Fell Drain is right out.

So, a fairly powerful build would stick with Monk 2-Cleric/Druid 5-Fist of the Forest 3-Enlightened/Sacred Fist. A monk-flavored fighter would be Monk 2/Ranger X/appropriate prestige classes. One last query--what build would make the most of the AoO/tripping mechanics that come up in the current build? Or is that an ineffective path to take?

Thanks to everyone for all the help.

erikun
2010-02-13, 06:54 AM
Fist of the Forest? The I-give-up-magical-equipment prestige class? Or am I thinking about something different?

I suppose Monk/Duskblade/Enlightened Fist could work also, assuming you could channel spells through your fist, although you are still splitting your stats with INT/WIS.

The best buffs for AoO/Trip are STR and size increases. The size increases also give you reach, which help with taking AoOs; you normally wouldn't get very many, as moving next to your character and attacking doesn't provoke without reach. I'm not familiar with any Monk weapons which have reach, not even exotic variants, so you may want to look into getting a martial or exotic reach weapon specifically for AoO. The Spiked Chain is the most common (both for the longest range and ability to trip), although the Guisarme is handy if you're taking a class that gets all martial weapons for free.

Greenish
2010-02-13, 07:09 AM
Convince your DM that the Monk's fists count as manufactured weapons, so that your Wizard can cast Magic Weapon (+ Greater) on your Monk. One of the biggest drawbacks of the Monk is that their fists aren't encanted, so giving them a +X enchantment will give them a bonus to hit, bypass DR, and allow them to hit incorporeal.It might help you to convince your DM to quote SRD:
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.:smallwink:

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-13, 07:34 AM
It might help you to convince your DM to quote SRD::smallwink:

Problem with that is that it's only considered natural and manufactured for spells and effects (and even then, only if they improve or enhance it).

Many DM's don't consider things like "Improved Natural Attack" to be an effect, and, even if they do consider the damage increase an effect, I've not seen a DM yet that considers a requirement of "a natural weapon" as an effect.

That means that, unless your character can meet the requirements of a feat/ability/etc, then he/she can't benefit from it.

EDIT: However, for effects such as Magic Weapon or Magic Fang, you're absolutely correct.

Math_Mage
2010-02-13, 07:52 AM
Fist of the Forest? The I-give-up-magical-equipment prestige class? Or am I thinking about something different?

I suppose Monk/Duskblade/Enlightened Fist could work also, assuming you could channel spells through your fist, although you are still splitting your stats with INT/WIS.

The best buffs for AoO/Trip are STR and size increases. The size increases also give you reach, which help with taking AoOs; you normally wouldn't get very many, as moving next to your character and attacking doesn't provoke without reach. I'm not familiar with any Monk weapons which have reach, not even exotic variants, so you may want to look into getting a martial or exotic reach weapon specifically for AoO. The Spiked Chain is the most common (both for the longest range and ability to trip), although the Guisarme is handy if you're taking a class that gets all martial weapons for free.

Fist of the Forest doesn't require you to give up magical equipment. However, it doesn't raise CL, either, so I guess I only put that in if I dedicate the Monk to a noncaster route.

*sigh* As ever, Druids trip better than anything built for tripping merely by being Druids. Stupid tier-1 classes making charop too easy...:smalltongue:

The Duskblade seems pretty close to what I'm looking for. In any case, now I have a number of options to discuss with my friend. Thanks! :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2010-02-13, 07:59 AM
The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101) grants Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike). As an official Wizards of the Coast item this sets a precedent for the feat.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-13, 08:31 AM
The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101) grants Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike). As an official Wizards of the Coast item this sets a precedent for the feat.

Correct. However, if it doesn't state that it ignores prereq's, then it follows the same rules as any feat. The rule I'm referring to being, "Don't qualify for the feat? Don't benefit from the feat."

That's enough of a precedent for me to say the benefits of a feat are an effect. Not enough to say the prereq's are.

So that would be a great item for races with a claw or bite attack (such as a kobold, for example). As written, however? It's another poorly thought out item by WotC for others.

Darrin
2010-02-13, 09:34 AM
The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101) grants Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike). As an official Wizards of the Coast item this sets a precedent for the feat.

Not really. By RAW, a non-monk unarmed strike does not qualify for Improved Natural Attack. Whoever designed the Fanged Ring probably wasn't aware of this (the rules about unarmed strikes and natural weapons aren't all that clear and are spread all over the place). All it says is WotC was a little sloppy... which wasn't exactly a precedent at that point.

I've always been curious how other DMs handle the Fanged Ring, though. Do most of you hand-wave it and allow INA to improve the IUS given by the ring?

Soranar
2010-02-13, 11:29 AM
Abrupt Jaunt ACF worth losing the familiar for the wizard? I know it's ordinarily very powerful, I'm just wondering whether the potential extra actions granted by a familiar will make a bigger difference in a 2-person party than in the typical one.

Personally I would keep the familiar. Abrupt jaunt assumes you have plenty of people to take the aggro after you've teleported.


Soranar, I'm a little confused by your comments about weapons.
1) Enlarge Person is a staple of the build, and gives reach.
2) The kama is not a reach weapon, and in fact is a light weapon, meaning only the ordinary Str bonus applies. A quarterstaff would let me apply the 1.5x bonus, but since my monk's Str is the third stat (+2 mod, after +3 to Dex and Wis), I'm not sure how much difference that makes. A spiked chain is a reach weapon, but not a monk weapon (though still juicy for AoO)--which means a feat spent on EWP. Might be worth it anyway, of course.

Sorry I was tired so I was a bit too vague. By Kama weapons I meant kata weapons (quarterstaff, etc). If you allow the polearm feats then you can flurry a polearm.

Enlarge person is nice but it comes at a cost : the size increase makes you lose 2 pts of Dex (-1 AoO) and you have to actually cast the spell. That means 1 spellslot wasted and potentially 1 action too if you didn't expect a fight. And at early levels it will only last you a fight, if that.

I agree that the spiked chain would be your best choice if you decide not to multiclass with druid. You can start taking fighter levels to get more feats and BAB or maybe Swashbuckler levels (synergies well with spiked chain). Swashbuckler would let you use 2 stats to damage (STR and INT) and you can just keep pumping DEX for more AC, to hit (free weapon finesse) and AoO.


Ranger, Mystic Ranger, and Druid are all interesting choices (though choosing the Druid would just make me feel like I was handing my friend a nerfed Druid...but that still might be better than the alternative).

Mystic Ranger is dragon magazine , I thought that was banned. It is pretty good with Sword of the Arcane order, makes your ranger a secondary arcane caster.


So, a fairly powerful build would stick with Monk 2-Cleric/Druid 5-Fist of the Forest 3-Enlightened/Sacred Fist. A monk-flavored fighter would be Monk 2/Ranger X/appropriate prestige classes. One last query--what build would make the most of the AoO/tripping mechanics that come up in the current build? Or is that an ineffective path to take?



We'd need to see your stats distribution to know for sure. But Monk 2, Fighter 2,Swashbuckler 3, exotic weapon master 3 could work ok.

My Favorite Monk build is probably Monk1 or 2, cleric X, Sacred fist.

Greenish
2010-02-13, 11:45 AM
We'd need to see your stats distribution to know for sure.STR 14, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 13, WIS 17, CHA 12.

Behold my immense powers of Divination!

Jayabalard
2010-02-13, 11:48 AM
Unarmed Swordsage/Wizard/JPM. See if the DM will let kung fu genius/somethingIcan'tspellbutstartswithac monk work on the USS wis to ac.It kind of looks like you just read the title and posted without reading any of the thread...