Space Marines vs. Devils [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 03:32 PM

If you're talking about D&D devils, then marines, even grey knights, are screwed.

Why? Two words: Greater teleport.

Nothing in WH40K is capable of personal long range stable instant travel.

D&D Demons are.

And at the contrary of the WH40K chaos demons, D&D devils are renowed for their careful tactics and organization.

So really, we're looking at the spech merines ships seeing their ships engines suddenly blown up, all their fancy equipment sabotaged, and there isn't much they can do about it.

Fireball has an obscene range, and altough spech merines are tough, they're not invulnerable, so something like a balor can snipe them all day long while keeping out of range.

And then, spech merines are renowed for their easily corruptible minds, with an impressive 50% betrayal rate(cough Horus Heresy cough). When the mind control SLAs start raining, the devils can sit back and watch the spech merines kill each other.

Not to mention stuff like invisibility and illusions wich are pretty rare among WH40K demons besides some Tzenceth and Slanesh greater demons.

Did I mention that most devils can, you know, fly, while WH40K demons at best jump and charge?

D&D devils win hands down.

hamishspence

2010-02-13, 03:35 PM

Grey Knights have a 100% incorruptible record- so the "corruptible minds" thing isn't a problem for them.

And shields block teleportation- so its not implausible in this context that they would block the Teleport spell-like ability as well.

Outsiders in general still need to breathe- meaning that they couldn't attack a Grey Knight strike cruiser while it was in space- not without taking precautions.

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 03:45 PM

Grey Knights have a 100% incorruptible record- so the "corruptible minds" thing isn't a problem for them.

They, however, dont even have jump packs, and all of their anti-demonic weaponry is pretty short ranged. . :smalltongue:

And shields block teleportation- so its not implausible in this context that they would block the Teleport spell-like ability as well.

Hm? Where does it say that their shields block teleportation?

And even then, they don't have "see invisibility" or anything similar if I remember correctly.

Outsiders in general still need to breathe- meaning that they couldn't attack a Grey Knight strike cruiser while it was in space- not without taking precautions

They can hold out their breath for plenty of time.

And if by precautions you mean "Dominating/charming whole populations, Imperial Guard armies and fleets and non-grey knight chapters", then yes, they can and probably would take precautions.:smallcool:

Fan

2010-02-13, 03:48 PM

And the Greater Teleport requires that they at least have a vauge definition of the location they're going to arrive at.

The Grey Guards have anti magic, anti psychic, and anti pretty much anything heretics use that is or isn't physical, carved into the bulk heads, and even then the ships have shields.

As for short range?

Are you crazy? Psycannons are ANTI PSYCHIC BULLETS that pass through any force field. Even the non magic ones like the Iron Halo force fields the Rosariums produce.

and if the Devils came, the Ordo Malleus would begin putting out a crap ton of psycannon rounds for every chapter, and begin inscribing every space marines armor with holy scripture.

It isn't even hard to carve it into their armor.

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 03:54 PM

And the Greater Teleport requires that they at least have a vauge definition of the location they're going to arrive at.

That's for why you have divination magic! And somebody had to design those ships.

The Grey Guards have anti magic, anti psychic, and anti pretty much anything heretics use that is or isn't physical, carved into the bulk heads, and even then the ships have shields.

But it doesn't offer complete immunity besides mind control effects and minor psyker powers. Even grey knights will feel the strongest offensive psyker powers.

Plus, their ships travel trough the warp. So they can't be completely immune to it.

Also, teleport bypasses force walls and forcecages, wich is pretty much the same thing as a shield.

Are you crazy? Psycannons are ANTI PSYCHIC BULLETS that pass through any force field. Even the non magic ones like the Iron Halo force fields the Rosariums produce.

In the last Imperial Armor volume, an attack force of grey knights faces a bloodthirster. Their ranged weapons were useless. They then charged and the bloodthirster killed them all.

And he wasn't even of the regenerative kind.

It took a pimped out inquisitor with the book of demon names and the uber-sword of demon slaying to take it down.

Too bad they now have to face devils, not demons, so super-specialized anti-demon equipment won't work.

and if the Devils came, the Ordo Malleus would begin putting out a crap ton of psycannon rounds for every chapter, and begin inscribing every space marines armor with holy scripture.
Why aren't they doing that right now? There's still chapters that are corrupted to chaos now and then. If grey knights anti-magic measures were cheap, then the whole Imperium military would have it, not just one chapter.:smallwink:

hamishspence

2010-02-13, 04:01 PM

Hm? Where does it say that their shields block teleportation?

In the Battle of the Imperial Palace- Horus drops the shields on his battle barge, so that the Emperor and company can teleport in. It's a trap, of course, but the fact remains that with shields up, teleporting doesn't work.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-13, 04:07 PM

{Scrubbed}

Regarding the original question.

I'd say it depends somewhat on numbers and types of units.

But throwing an average Space Marine against, say, a Bearded Devil? I'd go Space Marine. Devils have DR, sure, but it's maybe 10. Those bolters are probably doing several D6 of damage, and they have lots of ammo.

Something like a Pit Fiend might require a higher-ranked Librarian and a couple of high-ranked Marines.

...Or a Venerable Dreadnaught.

Fan

2010-02-13, 04:07 PM

That's for why you have divination magic! And somebody had to design those ships.

But it doesn't offer complete immunity besides mind control effects and minor psyker powers. Even grey knights will feel the strongest offensive psyker powers.

Plus, their ships travel trough the warp. So they can't be completely immune to it.

Also, teleport bypasses force walls and forcecages, wich is pretty much the same thing as a shield.

In the last Imperial Armor volume, an attack force of grey knights faces a bloodthirster. Their ranged weapons were useless. They then charged and the bloodthirster killed them all.

And he wasn't even of the regenerative kind.

It took a pimped out inquisitor with the book of demon names and the uber-sword of demon slaying to take it down.

Too bad they now have to face devils, not demons, so super-specialized anti-demon equipment won't work.

Why aren't they doing that right now? There's still chapters that are corrupted to chaos now and then. If grey knights anti-magic measures were cheap, then the whole Imperium military would have it, not just one chapter.:smallwink:

Your reffering to Grand Chapter Master Mandallus, with a legendary Force Sword, and facing a Favored Greater Blood Thrister of Khorne.

The fact that you belittle such a powerful demon astounds me. The thing ate tanks, and spat bullets. It's blood was acid, and it's skin tough enough to take blasts from a Lemann Russ without fail.

The fact that you call that a small achievement, and Mandallus a mere "Pimped out Inquisitor" is baffling.

And A Devil? One of the Strongest psykers?

Please. A Pit Fiend is NOTHING compared to even a B Level Psyker. Who explodes tanks with his mind, and takes apart mental shielding like it's nothing.

Saying that you can't be immune to psychic energies, and travel through the warp.... That's like saying you can't be immune to fire, and travel through the Elemental Plane of Fire.

It's silly.

hamishspence

2010-02-13, 04:34 PM

Your reffering to Grand Chapter Master Mandallus, with a legendary Force Sword, and facing a Favored Greater Blood Thrister of Khorne.

The fact that you belittle such a powerful demon astounds me. The thing ate tanks, and spat bullets. It's blood was acid, and it's skin tough enough to take blasts from a Lemann Russ without fail.

The fact that you call that a small achievement, and Mandallus a mere "Pimped out Inquisitor" is baffling.

He was talking about the scene with Lord Inquisitor Hector Rex, and An'ggrath.

In that scene though- the only Grey Knights available maxed-out at Brother Captain- might have been different if a Grand Master had been on the scene.

Callos_DeTerran

2010-02-13, 04:44 PM

Something needs to be clarified right quick, are the arch-devils involved or not?

Innis Cabal

2010-02-13, 05:01 PM

Something needs to be clarified right quick, are the arch-devils involved or not?

Their no more a threat then the Chaos Gods. Probably less so in fact.

Eldan

2010-02-13, 05:10 PM

The Archdevils, depending on which stats we use, take space marines apart in ways that are not even funny anymore.

And yes, in a direct confrontation, the space marines can probably take down Pit Fiends. But that's not what devils are built for. So let's take a look at tactics of the different devil castes:

Gelugon: I'd give the space marines saves against the fear aura and slow effect, I think they can take that. Most of their spell-likes can be taken down by a marine, I'd say. Problems here: Regeneration except vs. good weapons (SM might have some, but they are not standard issue), Greater Teleport and illusions.

Cornugon: Pretty much the same. Tough in close combat, but a few marines can probably take it. Illusions and teleport may cause problems, though, and it has regeneration as well.

Erinyes: again, tough. She can fly, which might be a problem if she gets a good ranged weapon, like a wand of fireball or something. Has no illusions, but teleport.

Kyton: nothing here really is a problem to a spacie.

Osyluth: now things get interesting. The secret police of Baator can teleport and turn invisible, along with flying and illusions. This can turn nasty.

Barbazu: Basic melee brute, but with teleport. Gives him mobility, but makes him only a basic fighter.

Pit Fiend: good melee combatant, true. But, once again, I think it's the spells that give it a chance. Meteor swarm should toast a spacie, and between invisibility, flight, images and teleport, it can pose some problems to them.

So, what would happen? In close combat, the spacies can overpower the devils and in ranged, unless the devils churn out wands and magical devices like hell (haha), they take them apart. But the devils are known for being smart, and they have the edge in mobility and stealth. All-out combat could go against them easily, but hit and run, stealth attacks, taking out undefended positions could really turn the tide. And I don't think I've seen spacies fight against invisible troops or illusions.

Fan

2010-02-13, 06:04 PM

Dawn of war 2, the Eldar have invisible troops, and radar and sound still happen so Blood Ravens still won, and if you get Arch Devils we get Primarchs, Robute Gulliman, Sangiunus and Horus (and assumably he has some anti mind control this time) ought to be enough.

Callos_DeTerran

2010-02-13, 06:07 PM

Actually I meant more so for leadership purposes then for actual combat.

And in any case the most important spell-like ability for Pit Fiends is forgotten. Wish.

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 06:50 PM

Please. A Pit Fiend is NOTHING compared to even a B Level Psyker. Who explodes tanks with his mind, and takes apart mental shielding like it's nothing.
If just pit fiends had spell like abilities like greater dispel magic, or meteor swarm, or they could just Wish anything...

Selrahc

2010-02-13, 07:10 PM

In a case like this we'd need some degree of interuniversal equivalence. Stuff from 40k that blocks teleports should work against devils and vice versa. Anti psyker defences should work against magic, anti magic defences should work against psykers.

The DnD cosmology is somewhat convoluted. But there are generally considered to be a near infinite supply of Devils, most of whom are engaged in the Blood War. The higher ranking devils are as powerful as gods and their leader Asmodeus may be the most powerful being in existence(Aside possibly from the Lady of Pain and other such luminaries). Without being tied down by the blood war the devils could very well take over the multiverse and destroy the forces of good forever.

The Space Marines are the military elite of the Imperium. There are maybe a million of them and they are all incredible warriors. With space ships and equipment purpose built for rapid strikes they can turn the course of even a major war in a matter of days with very few members. Their greatest leaders were the Primarchs who comitted acts worthy of any Demigod. The Emperor is possibly the most powerful being in 40K but still could not manage to hold together his empire.

A united group of devils is a threat on a multiversal scale. The Space Marines only operate on a galactic scale at best. The devils should therefore win hands down in an unrestricted conflict.

So that would mean that terms would have to be made for a fairer fight.

And then, spech merines are renowed for their easily corruptible minds, with an impressive 50% betrayal rate(cough Horus Heresy cough). When the mind control SLAs start raining, the devils can sit back and watch the spech merines kill each other.

Oslecamo, I know you have a lot of knowledge about 40k. Why do you continue to make stupid statements about it?

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 08:08 PM

Oslecamo, I know you have a lot of knowledge about 40k. Why do you continue to make stupid statements about it?

Perhaps because 40K fluff is highly incosistent, wich I like to point out, and the fact that most stories are heavily biased depending on whose side is telling it. Space marines codex? Space Marines rulez everything! Chaos forces have no chance at all! Chaos Codex? The loyalist scum are all weaklings! The imperium is rotten and colapsing!

Also, I must point out your "statements" about D&D devils:
-They are not infinite. The devil planes are limited in size and number, altough if you try to walk to one border you'll end up transported to the oposite border, giving an illusion of infinite space. There are even fixed numbers for some of their legions. They still number several millions of elite demons at least tough, so they easily outnumber the space marines.
-The blood war only consumes a small fragment of their forces. It's more of a border skirmish for training and amusement than a real war. Asmodeus has standing armies bigger than all devil forces ever sent to the blood war. Devils haven't conquered everything because Asmodeus is slowly biding his time to make sure the forces of good and neutrality will be crushed when the right time comes. Meanwhile he slowly corrupts new allies and acumulates power. D&D Demons are just too chaotic and spend most of the time actualy fighting themselves in the infinite layers of the Abyss.

Eldan

2010-02-13, 08:11 PM

That, once again, depends on the source. Yes, Fiendish Codex says that Baator is finite in size. Planescape says all planes are infinite. Planescape also claims that the devils are throwing pretty much everything htey have into the blood war.
Now, perhaps, we should agree which sources we use for the devils. Especially the stats for the archdevils. Fiendish Codices? Those jokes from the BoVD? Gates of Hell?

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 08:14 PM

As in WH40K, it's only fair we use the most recent codexes. Aka the fiendish codexes. Planescape is a specific campaign seting. Fiendish codex is suposed to be your generic devils.

Primarch stats are a little harder to come by. We do have official stats of Angram, a traitor primarch. Game wise he's just somewhat stronger than a demon prince and can take a retinue of bloodthirsters.

Selrahc

2010-02-13, 08:21 PM

Perhaps because 40K fluff is highly incosistent, wich I like to point out, and the fact that most stories are heavily biased depending on whose side is telling it. Space marines codex? Space Marines rulez everything! Chaos forces have no chance at all! Chaos Codex? The loyalist scum are all weaklings! The imperium is rotten and colapsing!

But that isn't any reason to deliberately make indefensible statements.

Also, I must point out your "statements" about D&D devils:

Well I did point out that the DnD cosmology was pretty convoluted. I'm not surprised I got stuff wrong for generic devils since I'm getting most of my data from the planescape setting.

J.Gellert

2010-02-13, 08:21 PM

As has been said, an easy win for the Devils, even if only for mobility/stealth/calculation/unity in cause (at least where one Archfiend's force is involved).

Once you start factoring in technicalities like damage reduction, regeneration, supernatural abilities and spells, and the fact that demons summoned on the prime material plane don't really die but reform in the Nine Hells and eventually come back, it's not even close.

There are very powerful Demons in WH40k, but even the strongest (which slaughter even Grey Knights) do not have the array of magical powers that D&D devils bring to battle.

Come to think of it, it's weird that Devils don't dominate all D&D settings. I guess Asmodeus wants to be really sure in his victory before trying.

Eldan

2010-02-13, 08:23 PM

At least in DnD, the devils and demons are greatly hindered in their mobility: they are restricted to the lower planes, unless summoned, and can't really leave them.

Volkov

2010-02-13, 08:25 PM

A single greater daemon can destroy the nine hells and kill all the arch devils with ease. One Bloodthirster is powerful enough to send entire fleets running and can single-handedly take on entire imperial worlds. The Grey knights can deal with things like that. As well as the Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters legion, who is almost certainly more powerful than Asmodeus.

Eldan

2010-02-13, 08:27 PM

Volkov

2010-02-13, 08:30 PM

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Asmodeus does have (well, in some sources) the power of a greater god, and DnD epic magic. So, prescience weeks ahead and the power to level worlds. He bleeds pit fiends when wounded, and these pit fiends can cast wish. I wouldn't be too sure about a blood thirster. They are melee monsters, but can't really stand up to powerful DnD magic, I'd say.

A Blood Thirster who can wipe out an entire planet. Greater Daemons are far more potent in the fluff than they are in the game. And Angron would scoff at Pit Fiends, or more correctly, scream in blood-curdling rage. His name is ANGRon after all.

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 08:30 PM

Come to think of it, it's weird that Devils don't dominate all D&D settings. I guess Asmodeus wants to be really sure in his victory before trying.

Pit fiends are cr20. Solars are CR24. And cast as 20th level clerics. And then you would have to deal with the inevitables and mondrons and the forces of neutrality from Fiendish Codex trying to preserve equilibrium. I don't blame Asmodeus for wanting to take all precautions possible.

And ever readed Book of Exalted Deeds? The Gods of Goodness aren't pushovers by any means. Asmodeus may be uber powerfull, but he's still just one, and isn't really willing to fight in the frontline.

Volkov:Source please. I don't remember a single bloodthirster ever taking over a planet by himself. They generaly take their countless demon armies to give them some help. Last time Angrom went on a crusade, he took a pretty big army with him.

Volkov

2010-02-13, 08:32 PM

Going by greyhawk fluff, which I always do. Asmodeus is no more powerful than Zaphkiel, and is probably a good deal weaker, and Zaphkiel is not a god by any means.

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 08:35 PM

Going by greyhawk fluff, which I always do. Asmodeus is no more powerful than Zaphkiel, and is probably a good deal weaker, and Zaphkiel is not a god by any means.

Again, specific setting, so not very valid. Asmodeus is renowed for feigning weakness so he can act behind the scenes. He even cheated the archdevils themselves once.

Volkov

2010-02-13, 08:37 PM

Again, specific setting, so not very valid. Asmodeus is renowed for feigning weakness so he can act behind the scenes. He even cheated the archdevils themselves once.

Most settings follow Greyhawk's guidelinse for Asmodeus's power. And the book of vile darkness lists him as being a good deal weaker than most gods present in the Deities and Demigods book.

Eldan

2010-02-13, 08:37 PM

Yup. Asmodeus could be feigning weakness, or he could just have his power limited on Oearth for some reason. I think going by the codices, for now, sounds good.

Oslecamo

2010-02-13, 08:40 PM

And the book of vile darkness lists him as being a good deal weaker than most gods present in the Deities and Demigods book.

Book of vile darkness is pretty old nowadays, the fiendish codexes are the updated version. And even then, claiming that Asmodeus is weaker than dudes like Vecna, who literaly obliterated epic demonic vampires with a single hand whe he was still a mortal, isn't helping your point very much.:smalltongue:

Eldan

2010-02-13, 08:42 PM

Well, Vecna is Haxxors. Anyway, if I remember correctly, you can pray to Asmodeus and he grants spells, so he does have at least some measure of divine power.

Still. What I think matters most here are numbers. There are a million space marines, and many more devils. A pit fiend should be able to take out a few on his own, by fireball sniping or just wishing them out of existence. An Osyluth is a powerful infiltrator and, if acting cleverly, should also take some spacies down. Finally, the weaker ground troops outnumber the spacies many to one, no matter hte setting, and could probably bring them down by weight of numbers after some time.

Volkov

2010-02-13, 08:42 PM

Book of vile darkness is pretty old nowadays, and even then, claiming that Asmodeus is weaker than dudes like Vecna, who literaly killed epic demonic vampires with a single hand whe he was still a mortal, isn't helping your point very much.:smalltongue:

Vecna, during the last days of 2e, made all beings not of the far realm in Ravenloft, Planescape, and Greyhawk scared s***less of him with only the power of a greater god. And some speculate that his meddling with reality during that time is the in canon explanation for the rule shift from 2e to 3e. Vecna is D&D's Thanos/Dr.Doom, achieving less than he could is something that is nigh impossible to avoid.

Innis Cabal

2010-02-13, 08:45 PM

And some speculate that his meddling with reality during that time is the in canon explanation for the rule shift from 2e to 3e.

Die, Vecna Die never happened. Ever. Anywhere for all time.

Volkov

2010-02-13, 08:46 PM

Die, Vecna Die never happened. Ever. Anywhere for all time.

Hey, I liked it...

Eldan

2010-02-13, 08:48 PM

There was an amusing piece of fan fiction for Planescape involving a barmy in the gatehouse claiming that Vecna took over the Armoury for several days. Everyone else tells him that's nonsense. The solution, apparently, was that the Lady undid those few days and folded the timestream back on itself, creating a three-day long temporal maze for Vecna.

Thrawn183

2010-02-13, 08:55 PM

So... devils scoping out places long in advance? Check.

Greater Teleport at will? Check.

Teleporting a 100,000,000 devils precisely where they need to be with perfect accuracy? Good-bye space marines.

I mean, this really isn't even taking into account just wishing that space marines' bolters don't work or something else absurd like that. And even if some small groups were able to prevent that like the gray knights, how many worlds are they going to be able to protect when the devils can just greater teleport from world to world? If nothing else the space marines would eventually just starve to death! It's not like they would actually have a chance at protecting anything other than themselves from the devils.

Volkov

2010-02-13, 08:58 PM

Thrawn183

2010-02-13, 09:00 PM

Right, because space marines have an infinite amount of ammo. Come on. There's no way the space marines could ever actually handle an infinite amount of foes.

Volkov

2010-02-13, 09:03 PM

Right, because space marines have an infinite amount of ammo. Come on. There's no way the space marines could ever actually handle an infinite amount of foes.

They can keep them at bay. The Demons of the abyss are only infinite in a sense, they have an infinite reinforcement pool as new demons are created faster than old ones are slain. Daemons are literally infinite, there is no end to their numbers.

Ganurath

2010-02-13, 09:04 PM

A human agent of Asmodeus meets with the Space Marines who have come to investigate the cults, explaining how a new presence has come to the Warp that sacrificed the stregth of his domain to wage an eternal war against Chaos. Asmodeus gives them the proper understanding of the Warp to know how to beat Chaos for good (culture war versus violent war) allowing the Empire to, with the help of the unseen opportunism of the Eldar, finally drive Chaos back to and into the Eye of Terror, until that last infernal gate is their final bastion.

As the final battle against Chaos rages, the psychic restraints on the gate break, allowing the door to the Warp to open. Fabius Bile, who is the last to lead Chaos with all the primarchs safely defeated, laughs his triumph as he expects to unleash the hell at his back on his foes. He glances over his shoulder as smooth red fingers curl over it, looking up at a regal figure with downward curling horns.

"Ah, Fabius. You will not be getting any reinforcements today. I just came here to ask the Space Marines present if they've been remembering to keep on eye on their Emperor."

As bolters race through the Major Image, the various fiends sent to subvert humanity overtake Sol and the remaining Space Marine homeworlds. Only after the violence ceases do Mephistophiles and his legions unveil themselves to finish off the Space Marines that fought Chaos. He is not surprised when the door seals behind him, but he was not prepared for an order of Exterminatus.

In all things, Asmodeus wins.

Volkov

2010-02-13, 09:07 PM

warty goblin

2010-02-13, 10:00 PM

They can keep them at bay. The Demons of the abyss are only infinite in a sense, they have an infinite reinforcement pool as new demons are created faster than old ones are slain. Daemons are literally infinite, there is no end to their numbers.

Not all infinities are created equal.

Math-wank to the side, my understanding was that there were in fact infinite demons, but being Chaotic, and also Evil, they didn't exactly exploit their numbers all that well. The devils, being Lawful, are much better at making use of what they have.

Renegade Paladin

2010-02-13, 11:45 PM

So... devils scoping out places long in advance? Check.

Greater Teleport at will? Check.

Teleporting a 100,000,000 devils precisely where they need to be with perfect accuracy? Good-bye space marines.
Except that the devils never behave in the manner you describe. There's no reason to believe they'd start doing so now, either. :smallsigh:

chiasaur11

2010-02-14, 12:00 AM

Then the Necrons come and destroy everything. Destroy the warp, then the Necrons win. Asmodeus dies as he is torn apart by Gauss flayers.

And when the dust all settles, there's one fellow in a Commissar's hat standing on top of a huge heap of bodies with a very confused, mildly terrified expression on his face.

MountainKing

2010-02-14, 12:40 AM

To toss two cents in on the secondary question of Orks versus devils, I'd like to point you to a singular Ork invention: the Shock Attack Gun. It's not perfect, no, but it's hilariously effective... and what better way to deal with the Legions of Hell than to accidentally open a hole in the Warp and unleashing ravening clouds of sentient daemonic ichor on them? I'm sure even Asmodeus can appreciate the irony of having his legions consumed body and soul by accident. :smallamused:

While we're at it, sure, the Shock Attack Gun is wielded by one Ork (a Big Mek at that). These are the *Orks* we're talking about here. I'm sure that, with enough mekboyz, they could put together something truly formidable (a.k.a. hilarious), and on a much grander scale than a single shock attack gun.

...*and*, if we're going to bring the main figures themselves into play, let's not forget that in the 40k universe, the Orks sport the only two undefeated god-figures in the universe: Gork, who is brutal, yet kunnin, and Mork, who is kunnin, yet brutal. :smallamused:

chiasaur11

2010-02-14, 01:12 AM

MountainKing

2010-02-14, 01:16 AM

Let's not forget how baby Orks are made; specifically, when adult Orks die, their bodies go all sporetastic, and in a little while, suddenly, you have more Orks.

Let's see "infinite" Legions battle exponentially infinite numbers. :smallamused:

Thrawn183

2010-02-14, 01:18 AM

Except that the devils never behave in the manner you describe. There's no reason to believe they'd start doing so now, either. :smallsigh:

Yeah, they never act in the manner I describe because they normally have to be summoned to be active on the prime material plane. But if we're throwing them into a completely different place? Against Space Marines? And remember, some people here seem to think that the Space Marines could take on ALL of the devils. If we get to assume that Space Marines are guys that seemingly have an infinite amount of ammo and food stockpiled (and available on hand for each individual trooper, simultaneously) well fine, then lets show the devils as a hierarchical unit. Lets show their leaders as being as ridiculously intelligent as their stat blocks indicate. Let's show how the devils could literally teleport EVERY single one of them to attack a single space marine at a time.

What, going to the bathroom? Sorry, Greater Teleport, and yeah, it really is that strong. Maybe none of your DM's have ever played devils as smart and ruthless as I do, but in my campaign world the moment even a single devil is summoned everybody freaks out because they understand just what it is capable of.

I mean, all of that, still isn't accounting for the magic that devils possess. Even that's not counting devils with class levels. Just one casting of Wish can be incredibly powerful. This idea that a single chapter of space marines could fight all the devils at once? Ludcirous.

And yes, that is exactly what they would have to do. Why? Because devils can teleport without error. They don't have to fight all the space marines at once, they can pick and choose at their leisure. Then you might ask, what happens if the space marines consolidate? Simple, everyone else dies. Goodbye Imperium of Man. That's even under the ridiculous assumption that the space marines could actually fight off the devils (and the devils didn't just wish away all the air or gravity on the planet or something).

How about this for a simple scenario:
What is to stop a single Lemure with 18 levels in cleric (a CR 19 presumably) and worshiping Asmodeus from casting miracle twice? He wishes for (to take directly from the srd)
- "Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error."
and
- "Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting"

Also, I'm pretty sure that Asmodeus would be pretty down with granting said miracle. Remember, this is a single devil doing this, and there are most definitely hundreds of devils with high levels in cleric. Not only would the Space Marines have fight all the devils, they'd have to fight them at the very minimum hundreds of times without stopping even once.

The only reason the prime material plane with all its wizards and clerics and druids isn't annihilated in a single day is the fact that there are forces of good lining up with their own wishes and miracles to prevent the demons and devils from doing exactly this.

MountainKing

2010-02-14, 01:25 AM

Uhm, excuse me, but... that's not how the hierarchy of Hell works. Plain and simple. Why on Earth would a LEMURE be getting class levels, let alone in CLERIC?

Just throwing it out there, the Gray Knights taking on innumerable Legions of devils is pretty feasible, because that's exactly what they do. Let's not get all uppity about what sounds crazy and then start throwing out crazy things (like a lemure that's anything BUT a lemure).

Soras Teva Gee

2010-02-14, 01:27 AM

Between teleportation, immunity to fire, summoning allies, damage reduction, regenerating, often flight, and various spell like abilities plus other such nasty supernatural abilities I'm not inclined to favor Space Marines. Sure they'll chew up Lemures and Imps by the gross, while the real devils are casting Hold spells or sending up invisible monsters.

All the while Asmodeus is playing smart and has a few Pit Fiends cast Wish to send a large party of more Pit Fiends before the Throne. They cast Wish. Imperium collapses. And Asmo can just bleed out Pit Fiends until it works. You don't even have to abuse Wish to do this.

(What a wonderful universe were there aren't even any LN or TN deities to object, never mind actually good aligned ones!)

MountainKing

2010-02-14, 01:28 AM

Nah; eventually though, Gork and Mork will get bored and decide to stomp Asmodeus' head in. :smallbiggrin:

warty goblin

2010-02-14, 01:35 AM

How about this for a simple scenario:
What is to stop a single Lemure with 18 levels in cleric (a CR 19 presumably) and worshiping Asmodeus from casting miracle twice? He wishes for (to take directly from the srd)
- "Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error."
and
- "Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting"

Presumably the Lemure's outright lack of an intelligence score. I'm not sure how you play it, but according to the SRD, a mindless creature wouldn't be able to speak or think. I at least would interpret that as reasonable cause to say it can't do something as complex as formulate the demands of a Wish spell.

Matar

2010-02-14, 01:36 AM

They can keep them at bay. The Demons of the abyss are only infinite in a sense, they have an infinite reinforcement pool as new demons are created faster than old ones are slain. Daemons are literally infinite, there is no end to their numbers.

Wait, what? Where do you get this?

I'm far from a DnD buff, but from my understanding the Demons of the Abyss -are- infinite in number. And they have an infinite amount of planes. I don't recall ever reading any of this "They just breed really quickly" nonsense. Where do you get that?

Don't get me wrong, I have no idea how an infinite horde can be held off. Honestly, I don't think it ever explains why. The only explanation I can think of is like... a finite bottle neck or something. But still, I'm rather sure they're infinite, and not like... breeding so fast it seems like they are infinite.

-Edit:

And my bet? Space Marines I guess. The Devils in DnD seem... lame honestly. And there numbers are limited. So long as we ban cheese, I don't see the Devils winning.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-02-14, 01:37 AM

@MountainKing

Yeah but the Imperium would still be dead, or more likely worshiping its new master... Asmodeus. Given that he'd be you know the only LE entity left and all its ripe pickings. Which given the untold trillions of humanity should put Asmo nearing overdeity status.

MountainKing

2010-02-14, 01:44 AM

And? The Ork race spans the *universe*. They have been encountered *everywhere* the Imperium of Man has attempted to go. The vastness of the Ork population that feeds the divine power of Gork and Mork can*not* be overstated, simply because it's so massive, that everything is a pale shadow of the real thing. They are the Orks. You can't stop an Ork infestation without burning the entire planet, and even then, I'm not sure 100% if that'll destroy the spores or not.

And again, to restate what I said earlier, Gork and Mork are, to the best of my knowledge, the *only* undefeated deities in the 40k universe. The humans can try worshiping Asmodeus, but I've got a feeling that as always, green is best.

Corporate M

2010-02-14, 01:45 AM

I think the space marines get a brain hemmorhage when they figure out Asmodeous was Tzeentch all along.

And how them finding out they were one and the same was all part of his vague and elaborate plan...

Matar

2010-02-14, 01:49 AM

I keep hearing a lot about Gork and Mork. What have they ever done, exactly? Do you have links to what they've done, or any books that have them in it?

'Cause they sound awesome. I mean, just listen to there names! The only names cooler are Bruce, Chuck, Samantha.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-02-14, 01:50 AM

At the risk of derailing the debate entirely, yeah but given that they've been around as long as Chaos they haven't knocked off even one of the four. If they are Orks then lets face it, Gork and Mork must spend all their time bashing each others heads in rather then ya' know doing anything.

chiasaur11

2010-02-14, 01:56 AM

MountainKing

2010-02-14, 02:20 AM

Aww, ninja'd by Chia. I mean, that's pretty much the perfect answer there. I'd say a perfectly matching example is Ghazkull letting Commissar Yarrick go after capturing him and torturing him for months. Why'd he do it? Simply because he was going to re-invade Armageddon, and he wanted Yarrick there to make the fight worthwhile. :smallbiggrin:

Also, look at the first post; this isn't thread derailment by any means. Orks vs. Devils was included as a secondary point of discussion.

JellyPooga

2010-02-14, 03:51 AM

toasty

2010-02-14, 04:00 AM

Could it be argued that Orks, in sufficient numbers, are capable of producing (in D&D terms) a Wish spell-like ability? After all, that's what the power of the Waaargh boils down to isn't it? Making Gargants work despite the laws of physics has got to be nothing short of a Wish spell, surely? Bending causality to fit your own perspective/desire sounds like Wish to me anyway!

With this in mind, those Pit Fiends running around with their Wish SLA might not be so much of an issue for Orks as it might be for Space Marines. Just thought I'd mention it...

In theory, the Space Marines could do the same thing with the power of faith. I mean, the Sisters of Battle do it... so why not them?

Honestly, the way magic works in 40k basically boils down to "you believe it to be true, so it IS true." :smallamused: (Except in the case of pyskers, who will things to happen... I guess).

Honestly, space marines versus the devils? If the Grey Knights are involved this is an even fight, I think, but without the grey knights the devils have an advantage.

Selrahc

2010-02-14, 07:29 AM

Guys remember that Devils aren't the only ones with supernatural powers and that Space Marines and important Imperium locations often have defences in place. This isn't a DnD versus modern military thread where the other universe has no defences against the supernatural.

In the 40K verse psykers can stop the powers of other psykers, much in the same manner that a wizard can cast counterspell to nullify another spell. Librarians are particularly adept at this and have special equipment to help(psychic hoods). Other Space Marine chapters like the Black Templars and the Space Wolves have more specific anti psyker defences. The Grey Knights are best equipped of all, with both direct "counterspelling" as well as anti-magic armour. The Space Marines should really have a blanket effect giving them a better chance to resist mental effects due to their psyindoctrination. Some would be wearing purity seals which act as a low level anti daemonic charm.

Geller fields protect from the warp. Hexagramatic fields are a more specific and stronger defence against daemonic incursions. Both prevent daemons just teleporting into a ship and wrecking it so it would be somewhat odd to say that Devils just bypass them. I would say as well that Psykers have an ability to predict the future and Daemonic incursions can often be pinpointed exactly before they happen.

Oslecamo

2010-02-14, 07:29 AM

There's a very fatal flaw in the orks.

Orks are very easy to manipulate.

Grey knights have their shiny runes to keep them from being mind controled, but orks? Not so much.

Orks follow their leaders whitout question as long as they get to bash something. Whitout leaders, they descend into a mindless rabble that will fight between itself and make an easy target. But if you actualy gain control of the warboss, then the whole WWAAAGHHH!!!! it's yours to command!

Invisibility and dominate/charm the main warbosses. Devils now control the super fungus army! Nothing in WH40K will stand in their way.

Selrahc:Thing is, D&D's high level magic is light years ahead of the best things WH40K psykers can acomplish.

A WH40K sorceror's can at best cast stuff like haste and charm monster and dominate person. Those are level 3-4 spells at best. Their teleporting is inprecise, slow and dangerous. Their sorcery is crude at best.

High level D&D fiends can tell reality to shut up and do what they want it to do. Psionic defenses can be dispelled. Runes and machinery can be disintregated. Supernatural equipment can be disjointed. The devil's mobility is crushingly superior. Even grey knights can do little more than run around untill they drop under a rain of greater dispel magics and fireballs from oponents they can't reach, as they're still moving on foot.

Volkov

2010-02-14, 11:42 AM

Oslecamo

2010-02-14, 12:09 PM

Bull**** several psykers can blow up planets on a whim, the Emperor is one of them.

Again, source please. The emperor never blew up a planet in any fluff I readed, and he's by far the strongest psyker in WH40K. At best, there were psykers who could dominate the populations of one entire planet, but that's pretty far away from blowing it up.

And then D&D magic can create new planets.

Volkov

2010-02-14, 12:13 PM

Again, source please. The emperor never blew up a planet in any fluff I readed, and he's by far the strongest psyker in WH40K. At best, there were psykers who could dominate the populations of one entire planet, but that's pretty far away from blowing it up.

And then D&D magic can create new planets.

"An Alpha Plus, however, is a being of grotesque power. They are described in the 4th edition Rulebook as being able to "turn a man inside-out with a glance", "snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist", and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of bloodlust". They are capable of destroying entire worlds - sometimes unintentionally."

Volkov

2010-02-14, 12:14 PM

If Devils treat holy water like acid, let us see how they will like the Emperor's finest Holy Promethium.

Oslecamo

2010-02-14, 12:24 PM

"An Alpha Plus, however, is a being of grotesque power. They are described in the 4th edition Rulebook as being able to "turn a man inside-out with a glance", "snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist", and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of bloodlust". They are capable of destroying entire worlds - sometimes unintentionally."

Luckily:

There is some controversy as to whether this description should be taken as an objective description of the Alpha Plus Level of psychic mastery, or if it is intended to be read as Imperial propaganda, and just being the exaggerated view of the generally anti-psychic authorities of the 40K world. In Dan Abnett's works, where the term first appeared, the Alpha Level psyker Esarhaddon (also the name of the King of Assyria between 681-669 BC) is powerful and able to control hundreds of Imperial citizens as puppets against the protagonists, but he is not described as being powerful enough to destroy a battle Titan, and is eventually subdued (Many works of fiction show that psykers seem to specialise in certain areas of psychic ability, so it is possible that Esarhaddon specialised in mind control or mental manipulation). Abnett's works (specifically the Eisenhorn trilogy) also refer to characters having a "PQ" rating. It is unknown how this relates to a psyker's power.

So it isn't left clear if an alpha psyker can actualy blow up a planet. "Destroying" here coud just as well mean killing the whole population. Even the strongest bloodthirster of Khorne blows are said to be able to cleave mountains and armies, but not exactly planets.

Also:

Nevertheless, few Alpha or Αlpha Plus psykers can be controlled safely, or even at all. Because more powerful psykers attract proportionally more interest from warp-bound daemons, many are driven insane, tainted by Chaos, or even become possessed (examples include the Apex Twins, who were responsible for murdering scores of Imperial Regiments). They are one of the biggest threats the Inquisition has to face, and are the reason that the Ordo Hereticus was formed. Most are executed, as the threat they pose is simply too great to deal with or control in any large degree.

Thus, space marines definetely don't have alpha psykers on their ranks, since they're pretty rare and hard to keep in check. They also aren't used to fighting them. That's for what you have the inquisition. While Asmodeus is literaly coughing dudes with high level magic.

Volkov

2010-02-14, 12:28 PM

Luckily:

There is some controversy as to whether this description should be taken as an objective description of the Alpha Plus Level of psychic mastery, or if it is intended to be read as Imperial propaganda, and just being the exaggerated view of the generally anti-psychic authorities of the 40K world. In Dan Abnett's works, where the term first appeared, the Alpha Level psyker Esarhaddon (also the name of the King of Assyria between 681-669 BC) is powerful and able to control hundreds of Imperial citizens as puppets against the protagonists, but he is not described as being powerful enough to destroy a battle Titan, and is eventually subdued (Many works of fiction show that psykers seem to specialise in certain areas of psychic ability, so it is possible that Esarhaddon specialised in mind control or mental manipulation). Abnett's works (specifically the Eisenhorn trilogy) also refer to characters having a "PQ" rating. It is unknown how this relates to a psyker's power.

So it isn't left clear if an alpha psyker can actualy blow up a planet. "Destroying" here coud just as well mean killing the whole population. Even the strongest bloodthirster of Khorne blows are said to be able to cleave mountains and armies, but not exactly planets.

Also:

Nevertheless, few Alpha or Αlpha Plus psykers can be controlled safely, or even at all. Because more powerful psykers attract proportionally more interest from warp-bound daemons, many are driven insane, tainted by Chaos, or even become possessed (examples include the Apex Twins, who were responsible for murdering scores of Imperial Regiments). They are one of the biggest threats the Inquisition has to face, and are the reason that the Ordo Hereticus was formed. Most are executed, as the threat they pose is simply too great to deal with or control in any large degree.

Thus, space marines definetely don't have alpha psykers on their ranks, since they're pretty rare and hard to keep in check. They also aren't used to fighting them. That's for what you have the inquisition. While Asmodeus is literaly coughing dudes with high level magic.
Asmodeus himself is killable. He won't last long when he's being melted with holy acid.

Volkov

2010-02-14, 12:35 PM

Plus, Individually a Single space marine can physically overpower more or less any devil. The spiked chains of a horned devil won't do crap to Space Marine Power suits, said horned devil will then be blasted to pieces by bolter rounds. Pit Fiends may be somewhat of a challenge thanks to their fireballs and once a year wishes, but even they will fall to a power sword through the head.

And yes, a power sword will ignore force effects, it specifically ignores shielding and physical armor, so the only protection devils will have against power weapons is agility. Otherwise, said weapons will kill even pit fiends en masse.

Oslecamo

2010-02-14, 12:40 PM

Asmodeus himself is killable. He won't last long when he's being melted with holy acid.

Silly boy. This is epic D&D. There's not "last long". There's killing your enemy before he can make a single move.
-Celerity allows Asmodeus to move first.
-Time stop, well, stops time for anyone but Asmodeus.
-Gate creates a fissure in reality, in this case to your secret stash of rocks.
-Drop some thousands of tons of rocks on the space marines. Nonmagical rocks of course, so you can't argue that all your anti-psyker wards resist them.
-Rocks fall, marines die, as they aren't immune to massive blunt damage. Loot the bodies. Profit.

Also, you seriously overstimate the physical prowess of space marines. They have been killed by cultists with pointy sticks several times. Something like bloodletters of Khorne, wich are basic demons, tear them apart in melee unless stoped by bolter fire.

Volkov

2010-02-14, 12:41 PM

Silly boy. This is epic D&D. There's not "last long". There's killing your enemy before he can make a single move.
-Celerity allows Asmodeus to move first.
-Time stop, well, stops time for anyone but Asmodeus.
-Gate creates a fissure in reality, in this case to your secret stash of rocks.
-Drop some thousands of tons of rocks on the space marines. Nonmagical rocks of course, so you can't argue that all your anti-psyker wards resist them.
-Rocks fall, marines die, as they aren't immune to blunt damage. Loot the bodies. Profit.

Then Ciaphais cain slices off his head with a power sword. Baator collapses on itself in the resulting power struggle. Then the Daemons of the warp emerge to do battle with the Demons of the Abyss.

Selrahc

2010-02-14, 12:46 PM

A WH40K sorceror's can at best cast stuff like haste and charm monster and dominate person. Those are level 3-4 spells at best. Their teleporting is inprecise, slow and dangerous. Their sorcery is crude at best.

That isn't really correct. Go and open up Dark Heresy to the chapter on psychic powers. There are plenty of level 5 or 6 equivalent spells in there. Even going up to level 9 (foresight). These spells do not represent the pinnacle of psychic development in 40K.

Librarians are amongst the most powerful psychics in the 40K universe. They don't undergo the soul binding procedure that limits most psykers and they have access to vast amounts of knowledge and training. The abilities they manifest are pretty well comparable to 9th level DnD spells. Across the codexes they've had abilities similar to meteor swarm, time stop, prismatic sphere and weird as well as many others.

It isn't as easy to use as DnD magic, but powerful 40K psykers seem to have possibly greater levels available to them than a pre epic wizard.

Oslecamo

2010-02-14, 12:46 PM

Then Ciaphais cain slices off his head with a power sword. Baator collapses on itself in the resulting power struggle. Then the Daemons of the warp emerge to do battle with the Demons of the Abyss.
Since when is Cain part of the space marines?:smalltongue:

hamishspence

2010-02-14, 12:46 PM

Volkov

2010-02-14, 12:50 PM

hamishspence

2010-02-14, 12:53 PM

Volkov

2010-02-14, 12:55 PM

Greater daemons, at least.

Its a bit like the Alter Size salient divine ability in Deities & Demigods, but on a larger scale- instead of growing to over a thousand feet tall, it grows to maybe a million miles tall.

We do know that Daemon princes are nigh omnipotent on their Daemon worlds and are nearly as powerful in warp storms and the warp itself. And Daemon primarchs are even more powerful. Guess what, the Grey Knights beat Angron, favored Daemon primarch of Khorne.

Oslecamo

2010-02-14, 12:57 PM

In the novel Eye of Terror, while its actually in the Eye, the Bloodthirster in the novel is pretty powerful- it cleaves a planet in half, and bats each half into the planet's star.

Its also capable of adjusting its size.

Outside of the Eye, the power is likely to be much more limited.

This also happens in D&D. Go to the plane of chaos and even a commoner can change reality just by wishing it. The abyss is also a pretty crazy place.

The warp is chaos incarnate. Everything goes inside there.

Selrahc:I don't have Dark heresy, so really can't say much on that.

But the codex powers? No 9th level spells. Warp time is haste, not time stop. There's some nukes, but they're normaly shligtly better than shooting, pretty far away from a meteor swarm/orbital bombardment. Dimension door that can kill the user. And the librarian's head will blow up if he tries to push it too far.

Also, most of what you've mentioned is destructive stuff. Where's genesis? Polymorph any object? Simulacrum? All purpose gate?

Volkov

2010-02-14, 12:59 PM

This also happens in D&D. Go to the plane of chaos and even a commoner can change reality just by wishing it. The abyss is also a pretty crazy place.

The warp is chaos incarnate. Everything goes inside there.

Selrahc:I don't have Dark heresy, so really can't say much on that.

But the codex powers? No 9th level spells. Warp time is haste, not time stop. There's some nukes, but they're normaly shligtly better than shooting, pretty far away from a meteor swarm/orbital bombardment. Dimension door that can kill the user. And the librarian's head will blow up if he tries to push it too far.

Also, most of what you've mentioned is destructive stuff. Where's genesis? Polymorph any object? Simulacrum?

A Pit fiend in the nine hells cannot cleave oerth in half if he tried. A Blood thirster would slice Oerth in half without a second thought with his axe of doom in the warp.

hamishspence

2010-02-14, 12:59 PM

Yup- although Armageddon- even during the 1st War, doesn't really have as much freedom available for the daemons. At least, nothing is said about them size-changing in the various excerpts. It wouldn't really count as "Eye-of-Terror type conditions".

Still, it does show how powerful the Grey Knights are- 100 GK terminators vs Angron and his bodyguard of Bloodthirsters, and they win, though most are killed in the process.

Oslecamo

2010-02-14, 01:07 PM

A Pit fiend in the nine hells cannot cleave oerth in half if he tried. A Blood thirster would slice Oerth in half without a second thought with his axe of doom in the warp.

Nope, the plane of chaos is where the craziest stuff happens-but only on there. The 9 hells are a plane of Law, and the forces of chaos are seriously weakened when they enter.

Still, it does show how powerful the Grey Knights are- 100 GK terminators vs Angron and his bodyguard of Bloodthirsters, and they win, though most are killed in the process.
1-Angrom isn't that special. When he was a mortal, he was the only primarch who failed to become the biggest power on his own starting planet. His brothers were taking down massive wolves with their bare hands and dark eldar raiders with hammers. Angrom couldn't deal with humie slavers. That doesn't say a lot in his favor.His official statistics also aren't that special.
2-During that particular Angrom crusade, he was stupid enough to sit down and start making altars out of corpses, allowing the grey knights to position their forces and attack with maximum effeciency. A big shot from a smart enemy who knows how to stay mobile and plan ahead.

Volkov

2010-02-14, 01:09 PM

Nope, the plane of chaos is where the craziest stuff happens-but only on there. The 9 hells are a plane of Law, and the forces of chaos are seriously weakened when they enter.

1-Angrom isn't that special. When he was a mortal, he was the only primarch who failed to become the biggest power on his own starting planet. That doesn't say a lot in his favor.His official statistics also aren't that special.
2-During that particular Angrom crusade, he was stupid enough to sit down and start making altars out of corpses, allowing the grey knights to position their forces and attack with maximum effeciency. A big shot from a smart enemy who knows how to stay mobile and plan ahead.

In a fight, would you agree that a Blood Thirster is easily more than a match for any pit fiend or balor? Bel Included.

Oslecamo

2010-02-14, 01:15 PM

In a fight, would you agree that a Blood Thirster is easily more than a match for any pit fiend or balor? Bel Included.

Won't speack for Bel.

Considering that they're based of the same LOTR monster, a Balor is probably as strong as a bloodthirster physical speaking. However, Balors have vorpal swords that can instantly decapitate any enemy(no save allowed), and they can summon a buddy, so they have the advantage.

Pit fiends have regeneration and teleport. They can eventualy wear down a bloodthirster with hit and run tactics.

Selrahc

2010-02-14, 01:18 PM

But the codex powers? No 9th level spells. Warp time is haste, not time stop. There's some nukes, but they're normaly shligtly better than shooting, pretty far away from a meteor swarm/orbital bombardment. Dimension door that can kill the user. And the librarian's head will blow up if he tries to push it too far.

I'd say a lot of that is opinion and personal interpretation. The psychic powers used to be army shattering in previous editions and are still rather powerful. I'd say smite is pretty equivalent to meteor swarm. 4 hits of 5d6 damage? 4 s4 ap2 shots? Look quite similar. Force dome is described like a prismatic sphere. Vortex of Doom is similar to the high level save or dies.

Warp time/the quickening has been described in different ways. Calling it merely haste seems like a hard to back up opinion. It has a lot of echoes with celerity really, except the caster doesn't get stunned.

Also, most of what you've mentioned is destructive stuff. Where's genesis? Polymorph any object? Simulacrum? All purpose gate?

Top level biomancers have a shapechange like ability which allows them to shape their form in any way imaginable called shape flesh.

Really though the magic in 40k is much more destructive.

Volkov

2010-02-14, 01:24 PM

Won't speack for Bel.

Considering that they're based of the same LOTR monster, a Balor is probably as strong as a bloodthirster physical speaking. However, Balors have vorpal swords that can instantly decapitate any enemy(no save allowed), and they can summon a buddy, so they have the advantage.

Pit fiends have regeneration and teleport. They can eventualy wear down a bloodthirster with hit and run tactics.

Bloodthirsters can cleave mountains outside of the warp. A balor won't make a dent in the same mountain.

GoC

2010-02-14, 01:25 PM

Throw a 20th level wizard on the side of the devils and we'll call it a curbstomp*.:smallcool: Sadly devils by themselves lack much of the really good stuff (though Greater Teleport, Invisibility and Charm can go far).:smallfrown:

* Teleportation circle, shapechange and the mind rewriting spells being the main thing, though there are plenty of other incredibly useful spells. Greater Ironguard for instance.:smallbiggrin:

A Pit fiend in the nine hells cannot cleave oerth in half if he tried. A Blood thirster would slice Oerth in half without a second thought with his axe of doom in the warp.
...

Volkov

2010-02-14, 01:27 PM

If the Space marines can take out Bel and the Dark eight, the military structure of the Devils will collapse, allowing the Soldiers of the emperor to mop up hell's armies before they can reorganize.

Eldan

2010-02-14, 02:42 PM

We do know that Daemon princes are nigh omnipotent on their Daemon worlds and are nearly as powerful in warp storms and the warp itself. And Daemon primarchs are even more powerful. Guess what, the Grey Knights beat Angron, favored Daemon primarch of Khorne.

Actually, they are. Archdemons such as Orcus or Demogorgon, while on their homeplane, are basically omnipotent, able to change the terrain of the entire layer they are on at will. Orcus also specifically was able to murder a few dozen gods during the events of Dead Gods.

Also, Oerth is not in the Warp. I'd actually compare the Warp to Limbo in DnD's cosmology, where cleaving mountains is pretty easy with some willpower. The Giths do it all the time. That's a terrain feature, not personal power.

Volkov

2010-02-14, 04:06 PM

Actually, they are. Archdemons such as Orcus or Demogorgon, while on their homeplane, are basically omnipotent, able to change the terrain of the entire layer they are on at will. Orcus also specifically was able to murder a few dozen gods during the events of Dead Gods.

Also, Oerth is not in the Warp. I'd actually compare the Warp to Limbo in DnD's cosmology, where cleaving mountains is pretty easy with some willpower. The Giths do it all the time. That's a terrain feature, not personal power.

Not mountains, planets the size of Oerth. With an axe. Then batting the two halves into star with said axe. And only a rare few can do that in Limbo according to the 3e manual of the planes.

GoC

2010-02-15, 10:07 AM

Oslecamo

2010-02-15, 11:16 AM

Care to explain this? Or is WH40K really like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann?

I say he's exagerating. The warp is the stuff of dreams and nightmares. If you wish anything . But...This only aplies on the Warp.

The grey knights didn't defeat Angrom. They sacrificed 100 of themselves to banish him to the Warp for 100 years. And they managed to do this because Angrom stood on the same place for a lot of time whitout bothering building defenses, allowing the Grey knights to position their troops and strike when they had the advantage.

Daemons are horribly vulnerable to anti-daemon tactics when outside of the Warp. Just saying the true name of a daemon if enough to reduce his power in half.

And then, in Imperial armor 7, it's told that one time Khorne received the soul of an evil human warlord. Not a chaos space marine lord, a normal human. He then told that he was giving the human warlord a chance to become a demon prince.

All that that simple human had to do was to defeat a bloodthirster in single combat.

Some minutes later the bloodthirster's head was rolling on the ground and a new daemon prince was born.

And no, the human wasn't just very agile. The bloodthirster landed some blows on him, but he aparently holded out with sheer force of will.

This was all on the Warp, where the bloodthirster should be stronger.

Thus, it seems like anyone can use the Warp to it's benefit. It's all a matter of strenght of will. There's no other reasonable explanation to how a not powered armored not geneticaly modified humie could defeat a bloodthirster in single melee combat.

So, cuting planets in the Warp isn't that impressive. It's a region of dreams and nightmares and desires and hates. You believe with enough strenght, it becomes true, but just inside the Warp.

Eldan

2010-02-15, 11:22 AM

MountainKing

2010-02-15, 11:33 AM

Oslecamo, you've got to be kidding me. The entire Ork race is a psychic race, each individual capable of BENDING REALITY.

This seems like an insane statement, until one considers that Ork technology only works for Orks. Why? Simply because Orks believe it will. Sisters have their Acts of Faith, sure, but that's a limited thing. Orks do that kind of thing every other minute of the day. Wizards spend decades, if not centuries, learning magic so that they can teach the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

Orks do that naturally, from the day they're spored. Every single Ork is, at a baseline, a psyker capable of warping reality in order to make reality serve their needs. Orks are so psychically potent that the MERE PRESENCE of enough Boyz will make a Weirdboy have an 'eadbang at the worst, and have PURE ENERGY shooting out of his orifices at best.

My question is, just *what* makes you think Orks are so "suggestable"? They don't *care* about any of the things devils can promise; they're too busy smashing things and being Orky to give two grots for anything Asmodeus can offer.

Oslecamo

2010-02-15, 11:52 AM

My question is, just *what* makes you think Orks are so "suggestable"? They don't *care* about any of the things devils can promise; they're too busy smashing things and being Orky to give two grots for anything Asmodeus can offer.

Actualy, there's two things that orks love and Asmodeus (or pretty much anyone) can offer:
1-A good fight.
2-Bigger, louder weapons.

1 Has been done a lot over the story of 40K. Get a WWWAAAGHHH started, then make sure it is pointed at your enemy, and get out of the way. Profit. Eldars do it all the time. Imperium doesn't like it, as it's considered HERESY to deal with xenos, but chaos has been known for doing it.

2 has also done in large scale in 40K. Orks may be able to build their own equipment, but since they still love new shiny and noisy weapons. Even imperial worlds will "bribe" ork warlords with stashes of weapons, and the orks will keep them in peace for awhile. The ork codex itself has the transmission of a warboss telling to an imperial commander that he'll let them alone if the humie gives him some dozen tanks. Of course, this is a temporary measure. Orks will want to use those weapons in something. That's when you do 1, and point the orks to some nearby dude you don't like.

Orks may be the strongest race in 40K, but they're still very simplistic. As long as they can get a good fight, they're happy. And devils just love to manipulate others in fighting for them. And can also offer big shiny magic weapons. It's a match made in heaven hell!

MountainKing

2010-02-15, 11:59 AM

Except that they don't actually *use* the guns that you give them as they are. They're not Orky enough. Also, the specific fluff quote that you're referring to has the Imperial commander refusing the demand, and the Ork saying, "Oh that's a shame, 'cause I have a few dozen kans and some gargants..." to which the Imperial says they'll comply with the request. How does the Ork respond?

"Nah, we're gonna come down anyway, just for a laugh." :smallamused:

Asmodeus wouldn't have a chance.

Oslecamo

2010-02-15, 12:03 PM

Asmodeus wouldn't have a chance.

You seem to be forgeting how most WWWAAGHHHS!!! are defeated.

Find the warboss, kill it, and all orks breack up fighting themselves to see who gets to be the new warboss. Even the nids learned and executed this tactic with great sucess.

Thus, if orks cannot be manipulated, it's just a matter of scry, teleport and kill tactics. Wich devils are quite good at.

MountainKing

2010-02-15, 12:14 PM

What happened to them not fighting for themselves? Hmm?

Meanwhile, *you're* forgetting that the Ork race is backed by the two most powerful deific figures in the WH40K universe, and they will not take kindly to their Boyz getting screwed with.

While we're at it, again, the Orks as a race *BEND REALITY*. Quit hiding behind your walls of magic and trickery; fighting like a grot won't get you anywhere with the Orks.

Oslecamo

2010-02-15, 12:26 PM

What happened to them not fighting for themselves? Hmm?

Well, they do it if needed, but devils aren't exactly known for their bravery. They just risk their skins if they can't get someone else to risk theirs.

Meanwhile, *you're* forgetting that the Ork race is backed by the two most powerful deific figures in the WH40K universe, and they will not take kindly to their Boyz getting screwed with.

Actualy, there's no proof whatsoever that Gork and Mork are anything more than an ork legend. We do know that the orks were bio-engineered by other race. But as far as I remember Gork and Mork never showed their face anywhere. Where do they live? In wich combats have they participated? Every other god in 40K has locations and conflicts they fought on.

While we're at it, again, the Orks as a race *BEND REALITY*. Quit hiding behind your walls of magic and trickery; fighting like a grot won't get you anywhere with the Orks.
Says who? Playing dirty is by far the most popular anti-ork strategy in the whole 40Kverse! See the War of Dakka, where orks get crushed by the Tau simply because the Tau keep running and shooting from afar.:smalltongue:

The Glyphstone

2010-02-15, 12:42 PM

I don't think the Big Four ever have either. They didn't do it during the Horus Heresy to my knowledge, and that would be the time to do it if they ever did. Is it even possible for the Chaos Gods to manifest physical bodies outside of the Warp/Eye of Terror? the standing rule does seem to be that 'bigger demon' = 'more warp energy needed to sustain a presence' (Bloodthirster takes a larger sacrifice than a Bloodletter, and won't hang around as long). How much power would it take to bring out one of the Four?

warty goblin

2010-02-15, 12:48 PM

Actualy, there's two things that orks love and Asmodeus (or pretty much anyone) can offer:
1-A good fight.
2-Bigger, louder weapons.

I'm unaware of the bit of D&D where the Devils are known for their dakka. Choppa they might be able to provide, but it isn't orky.

Volkov

2010-02-15, 12:56 PM

Exactly, which is why I compared it to Limbo, where such a thing is possible. Or maybe the Astral plane. In any case, my point is that some fiends show impressive strength of will, so they should become pretty powerful if this thing takes place in the warp. Which, I thought, it didn't.

Only anarchs can do much of anything with their will in limbo, normal people can only do very limited things. But even anarchs can't manage to make anything more complex than simple vegetation.

Your analogy is faulty.

MountainKing

2010-02-15, 01:09 PM

{scrubbed}

PhoeKun

2010-02-15, 02:15 PM

You know, it has always seemed to me (as an outside observer) that fans of Warhammer 40K have found one race in particular to be the most appealing to them, and spend a lot of time and gather a lot of written material together to illustrate that their favorite is inarguably the strongest race in the universe, bar none. I've seen the case made (passionately, I might add) for the Imperium being unassailable, for the Tyranids being the endgame of life, for the Orks keeping everyone else around purely for sport, and so on down the line.

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with this, it's certainly a good thing that people are enjoying something enough to care about these sorts of things. But I think that the number of bullet proof arguments for why X race or X group is the unquestioned best in the universe is possibly proof that the issue is less clear cut than anybody would like it to be.

Similarly, I'm bothered by the constant claims in threads like this that one side or the other that victory is clear cut and easily assured for the side they like better. Asmodeus is the ultimate devil, the embodiment of Lawful Evil and a name that the greatest bastions of good are afraid to speak. It's said of him (and it's probably true), that he's prepared five countermeasures for every plan you will ever think of, long before you'll have ever thought of it. The Fall is clear evidence that he's not completely unbeatable, particularly as that's something he has yet to completely recover from (unless you count 4e, in which case he's not only whole again, but was able to fling the entire Abyss into the Elemental Chaos and change everything about Demons with a flick of his wrist. Which... whatever)... Still, it's ludicrous to think that anybody could march into Hell itself and expect deposing its king would be business as usual, no matter who you are. Reverse the situation and make it an invasion by Hell into the 40Kverse, and... well, I think it would be surprisingly boring. I wouldn't expect a whole lot of fighting to go on at all, just a whole lot of espionage and talking. I could see them maybe setting up camp as another faction as a part of some vague and unknowable 1000 year plan to do... something... but the armies of hell aren't really for fighting until that single moment when all the pieces are in exactly the right place.

The bottom line being, the things we are dealing with are great and powerful beings or forces, having produced a countless number of stories that I think are best described as "awesome". I don't hang around versus threads very much so perhaps I'm missing the point, but wouldn't something like this be better served by a writeup, a story about how things might go down, rather than a big shouting match about which one we like more?

If you can't produce an interesting story out of the conflict, I don't see the point in any of it.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-15, 03:31 PM

Care to explain this? Or is WH40K really like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann?
When you're dealing with the the Warp and the Orks, 40k really is like TTGL, yes.

Innis Cabal

2010-02-15, 03:42 PM

When you're dealing with the the Warp and the Orks, TTGL really is like 40k, yes.

Fixed that for you.

MountainKing

2010-02-15, 04:54 PM

Oslecamo

2010-02-15, 05:46 PM

Despite my presentation of the fact being colored with my personal opinion, I would like it to remain stated that the War of Dakka illustrates clearly that the Orks are just as capable (if not more capable) of fighting dirty as the other races of the 40k universe, which in turn makes it a poor example of the Orks being beaten by an enemy fighting dirty.

Well, the orks ended up losing the war of dakka. And in Argageddon, Yarrick and his basic guardsmen sucessfully intercepted and killed all the ork kommandoz trying to infiltrate their base trough the ventilation systems. So I would say that it's a good example of the orks don't being that good at fighting dirty.

On the other hand, they're the best at fighting awesome. On the ork codex, one group of ork bikers once faced a titan. The nob biker just drove up a nearby building, jumped from it crashing trough the titan's shields and into the titan's cockpit, killed the whole crew and called it a day!

ReluctantReaper

2010-02-15, 08:28 PM

I have a question and it is very off topic....are these space marines in books? and if so uh i want them....now

The Glyphstone

2010-02-15, 08:38 PM

There's tons of Space Marine literature, all available from the Black Library. Be warned, it exists across a MASSIVE spread of quality from excellent to utter trash.

I'd probably recommend the Ultramarines Trilogy to start, it does a fairly good job at portraying the 'average Marine' primarily by illustrating how its protagonist isn't. The Space Wolves series has more and better fight scenes though.

ReluctantReaper

2010-02-15, 08:42 PM

Do you happen to know the title of the books of the Ultramarines series? Is Ultramarines Omnibus one of them?

Mikeavelli

2010-02-15, 10:12 PM

Space Marine fluff gets exaggerated a lot. Not much is said of Devilish fluff.

...

In the early days of the Blood War, several greater powers decided, being powers of Death and War, they would meddle in the Blood War. By the time their meddling was over, one Diety was dead, and the rest were scampering away clinging to what was left of their godhood. Asmodeus never even lifted a finger, but the message was clear.

Gods are not wanted meddling in the Blood War, and the forces of Hell are quite capable of dealing with them if they become troublesome.

[hr]

Much is made of cleaving a Planet in two, and some of the greater Devils (Lords of the Nine, or Baatezu nobles stated in splatbooks, in a pinch) - can achieve similar feats. Mephistopheles plot in Neverwinter Nights; HoTU, was to steal the entire Plane of Toril - and he'd have done it, too, if not for those meddling PC's. A noble Devil in his court was written as having a similar plan, constructing houses in plain sight over Ley Lines across a prime with the goal of activating them all, and teleporting the entire planet to hell, as a gift for her lord.

They don't often succeed, but that's only because D&D isn't as GRIMDARK as Warhammer and the PC's have the power of plot to help them succeed. Devils are certainly capable of world-shattering magic. It takes more time and planning, but plots that come to fruition over the course of centuries is what they're GOOD at.

[hr]

the strength of Devils is not on the field of battle or in direct conflict, it's in winning before the battle has even begun. Devils don't need to corrupt the Grey Knights or the Wardens, they just need to divine the origins of their supply lines, change shape to a form that can pass unseen on the Imperiums forgeworlds, introduce flaws and subversions into the supply lines at a million different points. Strike the Imperium where it is at its weakest, the inner worlds that fuel the war machine.

Certainly, some will be caught and killed. Others will infect the worlds so fully that a purge is necessary, and many thousands of Devils will be forcibly discorporated. But, over the course of years, centuries, maybe even millenia, the forces of Hell will make the Imperium of man Rot away from the inside.

When it comes time to openly bring force against the Imperium, it's too late. They've already won. The weakest among Asmodeus forces will walk into Holy Terra, and pull the plug on the Golden Throne, extinguishing its light forever.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-15, 11:32 PM

the strength of Devils is not on the field of battle or in direct conflict, it's in winning before the battle has even begun. Devils don't need to corrupt the Grey Knights or the Wardens, they just need to divine the origins of their supply lines, change shape to a form that can pass unseen on the Imperiums forgeworlds, introduce flaws and subversions into the supply lines at a million different points. Strike the Imperium where it is at its weakest, the inner worlds that fuel the war machine.

Certainly, some will be caught and killed. Others will infect the worlds so fully that a purge is necessary, and many thousands of Devils will be forcibly discorporated. But, over the course of years, centuries, maybe even millenia, the forces of Hell will make the Imperium of man Rot away from the inside.

When it comes time to openly bring force against the Imperium, it's too late. They've already won. The weakest among Asmodeus forces will walk into Holy Terra, and pull the plug on the Golden Throne, extinguishing its light forever.
That's what the Daemons and other forces of Chaos have been playing at for the past 10,000 years. Hasn't gotten them terribly far.

Killer Angel

2010-02-16, 03:32 AM

That's what the Daemons and other forces of Chaos have been playing at for the past 10,000 years. Hasn't gotten them terribly far.

They're not doing it well. Devils are born for such a thing.
Space Marines trying to invade hell, would be stopped by Bel, as any enemy 'til now.
And Bel is appreciated for his battle prowess, still, he's the Devil who was given command over the armies of Avernus, after enacting a devastating maneuver in the Blood War that became known as the Four-Cross, in which he ostensibly betrayed the devils to join the side of the demons, then rejoined the diabolic side of the war only to betray them a second time, then fought with the demons for a year and a day before finally enacting a devastating betrayal that crippled the forces of the Abyss for a decade.
A hard fight? yes. A victory for the SM? I don't think so.

Such tactics won't work with SM, but my point remains: Devils can't be beaten in their homeland, by any army.

Volkov

2010-02-16, 08:25 AM

They're not doing it well. Devils are born for such a thing.
Space Marines trying to invade hell, would be stopped by Bel, as any enemy 'til now.
And Bel is appreciated for his battle prowess, still, he's the Devil who was given command over the armies of Avernus, after enacting a devastating maneuver in the Blood War that became known as the Four-Cross, in which he ostensibly betrayed the devils to join the side of the demons, then rejoined the diabolic side of the war only to betray them a second time, then fought with the demons for a year and a day before finally enacting a devastating betrayal that crippled the forces of the Abyss for a decade.
A hard fight? yes. A victory for the SM? I don't think so.

Such tactics won't work with SM, but my point remains: Devils can't be beaten in their homeland, by any army.

Not even by the xeelee who's sidearms can oneshot an entire solar system and have massive numbers and unbelievably advanced technology to boot?

Killer Angel

2010-02-16, 11:11 AM

Not even by the xeelee who's sidearms can oneshot an entire solar system and have massive numbers and unbelievably advanced technology to boot?

Even so.

Case 1: Imperium invading Hell.
The Imperium of man, while colossal, is on a different scale than a whole Plane of the multiverse. The capability of destroying a planet, means little on a quasi-infinite (if not infinite) Plane. Even "massive" numbers is vague, and "unbelievably advanced technology", has the same weight of "unbelievably advanced magic".
The first layer of hell, has never been occupied by armies with near infinite demons; Bel commands a number of devils, send to him from the various Dukes, as a small tax for the Blood War, but those are far from the total number of devils.
In numbers, the humankind cannot mach the devils. In quality, they’re better than D&D demons, with a better organization, so they’re a greater threat, but they’re still few. On their home, thanks to teleport (and following regeneration), devils can organize hit and run tactics, involving waves with several thousands units, with a frequency of few rounds.
If things go bad, reinforcements will arrive from hells. If things go worse, Asmodeus will reshape Avernus (as already done with Malbolge), annihilating the invading force in the process.

Case 2: Hell invading Imperium.
I don’t believe in such a move, which is opposed to normal behaviour of devils, but still...
In this case, devils will have a hard time. Most of their abilities are hampered outside Hell. Summoned reinforcements won’t have teleport, etc. They’re going to suffer heavy losses, but also they’ll obtain successes, against human troops not specialized in fighting daemons.
Vs. Ordo Malleus, they can lose, but even so, it depends on numbers. SM can be outnumbered and slain (see Macragge), and unusual tactics (as when Kryptmann lured the Hive Fleet Vs the Orks), probably won’t work against smart enemies.

hamishspence

2010-02-16, 11:18 AM

Fiendish Codex 2 trimmed the size of Baator down considerably- each of the layers is finite in diameter- the only infinite part of the plane is the space around the layers.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-16, 11:57 AM

They're not doing it well. Devils are born for such a thing.

Chaos isn't doing subvert and corrupt well? They routinely corrupt entire planets and systems, and even if they don't corrupt an area outright, those in power are especially susceptible to corruption... The forces of chaos have gained control of entire sectors in this manner (see: Ravenor). The forces of the most powerful empire in the galaxy are at open war with it. As a matter of course they corrupt the highest and most powerful individuals tasked with combating them (see: rogue/radical inquisitors). Merely being in an area which is somewhat closer to the warp or had been used by the forces of Chaos is enough to cause madness, mutation, and corruption. I don't see the Hells matching that.

Devils are nowhere near as good at corruption as Chaos.

The Glyphstone

2010-02-16, 12:06 PM

Do you happen to know the title of the books of the Ultramarines series? Is Ultramarines Omnibus one of them?

That's the one you want - the Omnibus is, I think, the entire trilogy compiled into one massive tome.

On Topic: I'm going to have to agree with Texas_Ben here. Devils are amazing at infiltration, subversion, and seduction. But merely standing in close proximity to a devil, or being in the same room that a devil was in earlier doesn't have the corruptive or mutating effects that a daemon does. Possibly high-level archdevils can produce corrupting/mutating auras, but this effect is present in every daemon down to the lowest Nurgling (in proportionately weaker strength). It stretches to objects they've created or handled, and areas they've done their foul work in, often for significant lengths of time afterwards.

Killer Angel

2010-02-16, 12:13 PM

Fiendish Codex 2 trimmed the size of Baator down considerably- each of the layers is finite in diameter- the only infinite part of the plane is the space around the layers.

Fair enough, I suppose. But even SM and Grey Knights are a finite number, and they're less easily replaceable than Pit Fiends.

Devils are amazing at infiltration, subversion, and seduction. But merely standing in close proximity to a devil, or being in the same room that a devil was in earlier doesn't have the corruptive or mutating effects that a daemon does. Possibly high-level archdevils can produce corrupting/mutating auras, but this effect is present in every daemon down to the lowest Nurgling (in proportionately weaker strength).

Ah, I see... it's a problem of definition, and probably my fault.
For devils' "corruption" I intended the corruption of the soul via seduction for power, etc... all the stuffs that make good peoples fall and becoming evil; not the physical corrupting aura of the Daemons.
From this PoV, it seems to me that even archdevils can mutate the bodies only of other devils.

The Glyphstone

2010-02-16, 12:30 PM

Ah, I see... it's a problem of definition, and probably my fault.
For devils' "corruption" I intended the corruption of the soul via seduction for power, etc... all the stuffs that make good peoples fall and becoming evil; not the physical corrupting aura of the Daemons.
From this PoV, it seems to me that even archdevils can mutate the bodies only of other devils.

Daemons also subvert and corrupt people to evil, technically, but one of the more common subthemes of 40K's Chaos is that your outward appearance matches your inner one, so as a person is corrupted into evil and chaos, they start developing mutations. This does still give devils the edge in infiltration-style corruption though, because being turned Evil by a devil doesn't have the same obvious side effects that Chaos does.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-16, 04:08 PM

Ah, I see... it's a problem of definition, and probably my fault.
For devils' "corruption" I intended the corruption of the soul via seduction for power, etc... all the stuffs that make good peoples fall and becoming evil; not the physical corrupting aura of the Daemons.
From this PoV, it seems to me that even archdevils can mutate the bodies only of other devils.

The thing about physical corruption was tangental to my actual point: That Daemons will corrupt by their mere presence. Devils are certainly good at corrupting people, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that at an absolute minimum, Daemons / chaos are just as good at it, and in all likelihood better at it. With that said, expecting the Devils to just waltz in and corrupt the Imperium at a whim is somewhat unrealistic.

Mikeavelli

2010-02-16, 05:09 PM

Daemons are better at the obvious sides of corruption, distorting mens minds without their consent, mutating them horribly, etc. The weakness of this method is that it's incredibly obvious it's happening, and the Imperium has specialized agencies and tactics to deal with this sort of thing.

Namely, burning the world from orbit.

It's entirely possible, nay probable, that devilish infiltration won't be detected at all. With an infinite number of devils, all worlds in the Imperium can be simultaniously infiltrated (regardless of their proximity to the warp!) - every world in the Imperium.

They can bide their time, infiltrate slowly without obvious effect, over the course of several centuries. Chaos might be better at the short term corruption, but their insanity means they cannot complete any long-term plan.

Frankly, the Imperium is ALREADY a Lawful Evil empire, making the Devil's job even easier (and Chaos' job that much harder) - they can even appear to do good, increasing efficiency of the Imperium as their infiltrators in human form take high offices across the Imperium. Then, when it's time to strike, they can cause every world across the Imperium to simultaniously collapse.

Devils would, in my opinion, tend to get defeated in open battle against the forces of the Imperium. Which is why they won't try it.

Volkov

2010-02-16, 06:02 PM

However good asmodeus is at plotting, the deceiver and tzeentch are far better. Also, all thirteen thousand space wolves would smash hell's armies to bits. One thousand would be enough to storm Bel's fort, the entirety of the space wolves, who's unpredictability and epitpmization of the chaotic good alignment makes them perfect foils for the rigid thinking of baator. Not to mention, the yugoloths may assist the imperium in disposing of the devils to replace them with more manipulatable humans.

The_JJ

2010-02-16, 06:10 PM

J.Gellert

2010-02-16, 06:20 PM

The idea is that Devils have greater mobility, better planning, no need to eat, drink, or sleep, and near-infinite numbers.

Even if Space Marines can deal some damage (and I am not saying they can, against wish-casting creatures) they are still doomed to be outmaneuvered and eventually outfought. Ah, and they have a weak spot... Without the Emperor, they are nothing. I bet 10 Pit Fiends teleporting by the Golden Throne can take him. No? How about 100 Pit Fiends? 1.000? 1.000.000?

And hey, what's a Space Marine's typical lifespan? Even those few veterans that survive on combat against Daemons end up mind-scrubbed. If all else fails, Asmodeus (read: doesn't get older) can wait mankind out for another 40.000 years.

There is no point in a VS thread like this, because there is no contest between a supernatural doomsday army (the Hells) and mankind. It would be better to compare two supernatural "end of the world" forces: The Hells vs the Necrons.

Oslecamo

2010-02-16, 07:07 PM

Also, all thirteen thousand space wolves would smash hell's armies to bits.

You are missing one very important point here.

Space marines can be swarmed by numbers. That happens all the time in the fluff. Nids, orks, humie cultists, lesser daemons they can all drown a space marine with pointy sticks and bodies. Their power armor has vulnerable joints. Their ammo is limited.

Medium-high level devils cannot be swarmed. Doesn't matter how many low level enemies you throw at them, their spammable SLAs and DR will win them the day.

That's why the space marines always needs the Imperial's guard help, to counter the enemy hordes with numbers.

And devils have numbers of their own. Bel doesn't even need to exit his fortress. He just need to send some hundreds of thousands of lemures to face any space marine attack force that comes nearby and watch the carnage. Add the fact that he'll send stronger demons to back up the lemure hordes, and not even all the space marine chapters togheter have a real chance.

Volkov

2010-02-16, 07:09 PM

Please, cite evidence, don't make statements. So far all I've seen suggests that the Devils can, you know, fly out of range rain death and destruction upon any Marines.

Similarly, saying "Tzeentch > Asmodeus" as a statement of fact is rather odd in a vs. thread. A cross-universe match is what we're attempting to determine, and should not be a given as part of your arguments.

Devils are used to fighting an disorganized, border line tactically retarded foe. Now fighting an organized but still wildly unpredictable foe in the space wolves would be their doom. Plus, 10 pit fiends would be fodder for the custodes, who are individually far more powerful than a space marine. I'd say just one member of the custodes would defeat the ten fiends. Also, the devils still need to have a good picture of where they are going to teleport. Unless the pit fiend strike force wishes to find itself entombed in the earth's core, and dying from the shunting damage.

Lastly, very few varieties of devils can fly, and none of them can take on an imperial air superiority craft and hope to win due to said craft's massive speed and firepower advantage. Since the actually numerically limited (given the sizes of the layers in the fiendish codex there cannot be more than maybe one or two billion devils in baator.) Devils will not have the advantage of the skies, they will find themselves being pummeled by marauders and thunderhawks, while imperial titans crush them underfoot.

Once the dark eight and bel, and one or two other archdevils and a dozen or so dukes are slain, hell collapses in the ensuing power struggle to fill in the gaps. And none of the archdevils are going to last when attacked by a emperor class titan.

Volkov

2010-02-16, 07:17 PM

You are missing one very important point here.

Space marines can be swarmed by numbers. That happens all the time in the fluff. Nids, orks, humie cultists, lesser daemons they can all drown a space marine with pointy sticks and bodies. Their power armor has vulnerable joints. Their ammo is limited.

Medium-high level devils cannot be swarmed. Doesn't matter how many low level enemies you throw at them, their spammable SLAs and DR will win them the day.

That's why the space marines always needs the Imperial's guard help, to counter the enemy hordes with numbers.

And devils have numbers of their own. Bel doesn't even need to exit his fortress. He just need to send some hundreds of thousands of lemures to face any space marine attack force that comes nearby and watch the carnage. Add the fact that he'll send stronger demons to back up the lemure hordes, and not even all the space marine chapters togheter have a real chance.
Every space marine is as capable in combat as a level 20 fighter if not a bit better, one of which can slaughter dozens of barbed devils. Also, frag grenades will turn those tightly packed bearded devil formations into death traps, one grenade's shrapnel should off about a score or so. Also, one thunderhawk can simply come at bel's castle guns blazing while the others distract his flying forces, after a bit of sustained fire, the castle would crumble, and as the fiendish codex tells us, even a devil's innate teleportation rarely saves it from being caught in a crumbling building or cave in.

Also, what can Bel do when his yugoloth mercanaries turn against him as part of a plan to take hell for themselves? The sheer chaos that would unfold in such an event would leave his forces paralyzed for a good bit, long enough for him to be dealt with permanently.

Eldan

2010-02-16, 07:29 PM

Texas_Ben

2010-02-16, 07:35 PM

A level 20 fighter can jump of a mountain and survive or take a short swim in Lava. Unarmoured. I don't think a normal marine can do that.
Stop. Just stop. You're opening a very big can of worms here, one that you don't want opened.

Eldan

2010-02-16, 07:36 PM

Volkov

2010-02-16, 08:01 PM

Okay, now I'm calling bull**** on that. Space marines are not level 20 fighters. Just, no. Not even in the crazier fluff. Yes, they are capable fighters, but I wouldn't place them above level 10. Remember: the greatest humans ever alive today are level 4 or 5. A space marine, in the books and in the RPGs, can still be killed. A level 20 fighter can jump of a mountain and survive or take a short swim in Lava. Unarmoured. I don't think a normal marine can do that.

A space marine iin his armor is as good as a level 20 fighter, especially with their weapons. A bolter is hideously powerful, the most powerful heavy machine gun is less potent than a bolt pistol. And chain swords are absurdly sharp. And space marines can withstand being stepped on by a titan.

I'd say a bolter could kill nearly any fighter very rapidly, considering that the normal ones penetrate into you, then explode.

Volkov

2010-02-16, 08:08 PM

Well, yes. I am. And I've seen the contents. Sorry about it, but really, we can't discuss this if people just claim that spacies are epic level DnD fighters. Even fighters in DnD on these levels are just beyond everything you see in fiction.

Ahem, xeelee pistol>even my level 172 blackscale lizard folk fighter. Of course, said pistol can destroy a star by forcing it to explode and cuts through nearly everything like a lightsaber through air.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-02-16, 08:15 PM

Every space marine is as capable in combat as a level 20 fighter if not a bit better, one of which can slaughter dozens of barbed devils.

So YOU claim, which is a bit much even by the Imperium's propaganda standards. A standard trained soldier is considered level 1, even for SM elite status with a template you don't have nigh epic warrior running around in any numbers no matter how long they live its not how the idea works.

Also if you want to run with frag grenades... well the Imperium's tech base for normal weaponry isn't more advanced then our own. How can I say this, all the purely normal weaponry that shows up in the books and places like Dark Heresy. A lasrifle is roughly a normal rifle with some logistics benefits. So a bolter is a rapid firing grenade launcher and a frag grenade is a fragmentation grenade. Which switching mediums to d20 modern does 4d6 slashing damage. So 12 average damage minus 5 for the DR works out to 7 damage, to a beastie that averages 45 HP. So only a moderate ouch to the bearded devil but hey its only a CR 5 and that's hardly scores of them per grenade.

Course I'm sure (warning:sarcasm) you believe that 40k weapons by virtue of being from the glorious and far future of the radiant and hopeful Imperium are arbitrarily infinitely superior to anything modern weapons turn out.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-16, 08:54 PM

Well I'll attempt to treat the issue fairly, in order to hopefully avoid some of the more egregious fanwankery that tends to pop up when "Space Marine" and "Capabilities" are used in the same sentence.

The fact that an epic-level fighter can survive falls from great height and muck about in lava isn't due to any inherently great talent or durability on the part of the fighter himself, but due to the fact that the rules in this respect are extremely stylized and shouldn't really be used as evidence for much of anything-- Falling damage maxes out at 20d6 and lava only does 2d6 damage per round of exposure. That's the same as getting hit with a quarterstaff 22 times. I haven't ever fallen 200 metres into a pit of Lava, but I am inclined to believe that were that to happen, I would be worse off than if I had opted to get beaten on with a stick for a bit.

Anyways, I'm inclined to believe that Epic Fighters and Space Marines, at least the higher-tier ones, are on the same general level. I'm not terribly familiar with D&D rules though, so more information on the capabilities of an Epic fighter would be appreciated.

And because it has to come up eventually: Lets talk weapons!
I was googling around on various things and the most common damage I found for a rifle was 2d10 damage. Now, going by the Dark Heresy/RT rules, a Rifle does 1d10 damage, and a boltgun equipped with astartes pattern bolt shells does 2d10 damage. From this we can extrapolate that in D&D terms, a boltgun will deal 4d10 damage per hit. It has single, double, and automatic modes of fire, which assuming that rounds are the same for DH and D&D, gives you 1, 2, or 6 attacks per round.

Melee weapons are a bit trickier... I don't really know the D&D rules that well so I'm going to attempt to communicate what I mean but if it's not clear feel free to yell at me.

Anyways: Chainswords would probably be similar to a long sword with +2 or 3 to hit and damage. Any power weapon is really extremely nasty because those ignore armor, meaning that a person wielding it would only need to score a touch attack hit to deal damage. Due to the fact that armored space marines are so large, any weapon used by them is probably also going to be one size category larger than those used by normal humans. Force weapons, used by Librarians and Grey Knights, are even nastier. They're usually capable of killing an opponent outright, or at least dealing significant damage. Lets say that if someone is hit by a force weapon they make a will save. If they fail, they make a toughness save. If that fails, they die. If they fail the will save but succeed in the toughness save they take some amount of damage, and if they succeed in the will save nothing happens (well they take a hit from the sword like it was a normal power sword, but that's better than dying). Power swords would, I imagine, deal damage like a long sword one size category larger than normal with +5 damage due to the extremely disruptive power field sheathing the blade.

Stats-wise, a Space Marine is going to have extremely high strength and constitution, and above average agility. Intelligence and wisdom will obviously vary as normal, but trend towards high, since they are selected from the best humanity has to offer. They're also going to have a significant natural armor bonus from the black carapace... In other threads I've heard people mention that it's capable of stopping small-arms fire. I haven't seen that myself, but assuming for the moment that it's true, lets say +6 natural armor from the black carapace (3.5 rules, those are the only ones I know at all, I don't know how it works in 4). They also have immunity to poison, fatigue, bleeding, and blood loss, and can heal their injuries at a very rapid pace. Probably not fast enough to give them HP regeneration, but certainly enough to say that non-magical healing has a greater effect on them. Their skin also secretes a substance which gives them limited resistance to fire and vacuum, so lets give them damage resistance of 10/fire. They can also breathe underwater.

If anyone who knows more abut D&D cares to work with these stats to make them more accurate or detailed, that would be spiffy.

Mikeavelli

2010-02-16, 10:28 PM

I could quibble a bit (Instant death swords are usually modeled by the Vorpal ability, save-or-die with every hit is the sort of thing a unique artifact would have) - but yes, Space Marines could be modeled fairly well by a High level Fighter.

Level 20 Fighters with incredible equipment is about the upper level for your nameless Space Marine. The chapters cited as being best-of-the-best (Grey Nights, Adaptus Custodes, etc.) would be in the 18-20 range. The rest of the Space Marine chapters would be a minimum of 15 or so.

If they're Epic or beyond, they have a name. The Primarchs are epic level, the Emperor of Man is Epic level, etc.

The general rule with levels is a character is supposed to double in power every two levels up until Epic, at which point they skyrocket into OMGROFL levels of power. Especially Wizards.

Imperial Guardsmen would be trained soldiers with some really nice equipment. Level 3-5 fighters with weapons and armor beyond their level.

chiasaur11

2010-02-16, 10:34 PM

Imperial Guardsmen would be trained soldiers with some really nice equipment. Level 3-5 fighters with weapons and armor beyond their level.

With Commissar Cain modeled by...

nothing. He is beyond our puny numbers.

Mikeavelli

2010-02-16, 10:43 PM

With Commissar Cain modeled by...

nothing. He is beyond our puny numbers.

Tzeentch couldn't beat Asmodeus, but Ciaphas Cain sure could.

Renegade Paladin

2010-02-16, 10:47 PM

Tzeentch couldn't beat Asmodeus, but Ciaphas Cain sure could.
That's CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM! to you. :smallwink:

Texas_Ben

2010-02-16, 10:59 PM

I could quibble a bit (Instant death swords are usually modeled by the Vorpal ability, save-or-die with every hit is the sort of thing a unique artifact would have) - but yes, Space Marines could be modeled fairly well by a High level Fighter.

Yeah I considered saying vorpal, but my understanding is that a vorpal sword decapitates on a hit? Force weapons are most useful against Daemons and other extremely powerful foes, many of which wouldn't particularly care about losing their head. The way I laid it out it wasn't really "save or die", since you would need to fail two different saves to be killed outright.

I don't know how it works in the tabletop game, but in Rogue Trader Force weapons don't kill outright, but do so much damage when wielded by a potent psyker that that's usually the result anyway. The problem with modeling it as a D&D weapon is that the damage dealt by a force weapon is proportional to the power of the psyker wielding it, so I took the easy way out and said "fail one save you take massive damage, fail another save you die". Maybe have it count as a power sword, with extra damage (which can be reduced or avoided by a will save) keyed into the wielder's caster level and wisdom bonus? so like 1d10 + 5 dmg as base, +nd6 damage, where n is equal to the wielder's wisdom bonus + 1/2 caster level. So a Librarian (assuming for the sake of argument that he's fighter/10 cleric/10, or something like that) with a wisdom bonus of 4 (seems to me like a librarian would be higher, but whatever) would be doing 1d10 + 5 +9d6 damage, with a will save to ignore the damage.

At any rate it doesn't really matter, since Librarians aren't exactly your rank-and-file troops, so the only time it would really come up is with the Grey Knights, who as far as I know use force weapons as standard gear.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-16, 10:59 PM

That's CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM! to you. :smallwink:

I believe it's pronounced CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!.

But that's just me.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-02-16, 11:18 PM

@Texas_Ben's post after mine:

I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to want to write a comprehensive conversion. That said systems do not necessarily progress the same. A rifle does twice as much damage in d20 as DH, but I'd question apply that margin directly to a bolter without a lot more comparison. A bolter round is more comparable to grenades by what I've read, but does it have say splash damage, does it kill vehicle in a shot single shot. Also attacks do not necessarily equate to rate of fire for an automatic.

On other fronts the Black Carapace is not an armor bonus, its the interface for power armor. Their SMs ribcage is reinforced but thats something low like +1 natural, or non stacking like wearing a chain shirt and plate, but not an epic scale item. Though hell I'll say power armor itself is +3-5 Full Plate with low penalties. Other abilities like immunity to disease ask whether it would work on say magical diseases or necromantic fatigue effects. Stats I'm not going to touch because I don't know if I agree with standard ideas on them aside from this issue. I think looking at the smaller giant races might be insightful though.

Add in Gameplay/Story Separation issues to all of this and I regret bringing weapons up, though I still think the notion of frag grenades killing dozens of devils (above lemures maybe) at a time as ridiculous. As is the notion of SMs being lvl 20.

Fan

2010-02-16, 11:35 PM

Your also forgetting that a Bolter not only has DIAMOND TIPS, but it is also the equivalent to a armor piercing full 1.00 Caliber (The most powerful sniper rifle, a sniper rifle that pierces a engine block, being a gas operated .50 Cal in modern military comparison.), with a ADAMANTINE core, in addition to holy promethium in the place of deuterium in this case (The forge world of mars would use their capabilities to at least produce that much.).

Compared to a RIFLE, this is a absolutely ludicrous claim to assume that it WASN'T light years ahead of these primitive fire arms that we use.

Our rounds: .35 caliber bullets that can't be expected to pierce even a few centimeters of metal.

Their Rounds: 1.00 Caliber Rounds (For Storm, and Heavy Bolters.), with DIAMOND tips, Holy Promethium around the Adamantine core, rocket propelled, and can be expected to go through a few modern day tanks.

Even 4d10 damage is a vast understatement, as a this is above even Fire Ball, or Lightning bolt, and ESPECIALLY above a Orb of Force.

All things that can be expected to deal more then 4d10 damage, yet are comparably weak per round.

imp_fireball

2010-02-17, 12:30 AM

Falling damage maxes out at 20d6 and lava only does 2d6 damage per round of exposure

Falling damage maxes out because of transversal velocity. Lava does more damage on full immersion.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-02-17, 12:36 AM

Your also forgetting that a Bolter not only has DIAMOND TIPS, but it is also the equivalent to a armor piercing full 1.00 Caliber (The most powerful sniper rifle, a sniper rifle that pierces a engine block, being a gas operated .50 Cal in modern military comparison.), with a ADAMANTINE core, in addition to holy promethium in the place of deuterium in this case (The forge world of mars would use their capabilities to at least produce that much.).

Diamond tip means little to me next to the other physics involved. I throw a diamond saw at you or shoot you with an arrow which you think penetrates better? Diamonds have many applications, but unless you can source me up some real world info on them in ballistics I'm not inclined to give it any special edge. (Its not like they're so rare or unproducible they'd not be used if they were meaningful e.g. diamond tipped saws)

And you really think promethium isn't just a catchall term for oil products (like gasoline) in Imperium? Like so much its hard to call it superior as wrapped in mummery and superstition on the part of the techpriests as things are in 40k.

Fan

2010-02-17, 12:55 AM

Diamond tip means little to me next to the other physics involved. I throw a diamond saw at you or shoot you with an arrow which you think penetrates better? Diamonds have many applications, but unless you can source me up some real world info on them in ballistics I'm not inclined to give it any special edge. (Its not like they're so rare or unproducible they'd not be used if they were meaningful e.g. diamond tipped saws)

And you really think promethium isn't just a catchall term for oil products (like gasoline) in Imperium? Like so much its hard to call it superior as wrapped in mummery and superstition on the part of the techpriests as things are in 40k.

It means that it's harder than the metals, and specfically it's Diamantine, a Diamond Alloy of Rock, and metal to allow for even better penetration abilities.

The point is, it's a form of Unobtainium (and not from Avatar. That was a BAD joke.), that is vastly superior to steel, and Promethium is above oil as they actually have that by name in the fluff when it does come up. Holy Promethium is a step above normal oil, as it burns with PURE FAITH (stated in the Lexicanum wiki even.) rather than mundane fire. I'd treat it as Consecrated Fire that deals Double Damage against Outsiders. Much like a Lance deals double damage on a charge, or Sun Burst does X2 damage against undead.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-17, 01:21 AM

A rifle does twice as much damage in d20 as DH, but I'd question apply that margin directly to a bolter without a lot more comparison. A bolter round is more comparable to grenades by what I've read, but does it have say splash damage, does it kill vehicle in a shot single shot. Also attacks do not necessarily equate to rate of fire for an automatic.
The comparison doesn't hinge on the fact that a D&D rifle uses twice as many d10s as a DH rifle as it does that the astartes-pattern bolt shells do twice as much damage as a rifle. Since we have rifle stats for both systems, it makes sense to double the damage and call it a day. Fluff-wise we can debate all day about how powerful bolters are, but I think stats-wise, saying 4d10 is pretty solid.

The DH and D&D combat systems are different, but attacks per round and RoF are similar enough that I think it's a fair comparison.

As for your other questions: Bolters do not have splash damage, and have an armor-penetrating capability which is sufficient to deal with most personal armor, but not to deal with anything heavier than light vehicles.

On other fronts the Black Carapace is not an armor bonus, its the interface for power armor. Their SMs ribcage is reinforced but thats something low like +1 natural, or non stacking like wearing a chain shirt and plate, but not an epic scale item.
The purpose of the Black Carapace is to serve as the interface between the marine and his armor yes, but I'm fairly certain that it toughens up considerably providing a great deal of natural protection as well, hence the 'carapace'. This is all hearsay on my part, but I've heard it said that the protection it offers is up to and including providing some resistance to small arms fire, which we've established 2d10 for as the baseline, so +4-6 doesn't seem to unreasonable. Remember that as far as settings go, 40k is pretty overpowered. D&D might have ridiculous magic, but in a straight up fight, we're talking about the middle ages vs. future grimdark supersoldiers. Obviously their gear is going to look epic compared to what's available to your typical D&D adventurer.

Though hell I'll say power armor itself is +3-5 Full Plate with low penalties. Other abilities like immunity to disease ask whether it would work on say magical diseases or necromantic fatigue effects. Stats I'm not going to touch because I don't know if I agree with standard ideas on them aside from this issue. I think looking at the smaller giant races might be insightful though.
Space Marines are not, to the best of my knowledge, immune to disease. They have a heavily boosted immune system which would be reflected in their obscene constitution score, but they aren't totally immune as far as I know. Poison gets you nowhere though. As for the fatigue thing-- I don't know how they would be affected by magical fatigue. They way their brain works they can go completely without sleep for months and not suffer any ill effects... I don't really know how magical fatigue effects work in D&D. Do they say "treat it as if X amount of time has passed without rest"? If so it would certainly be able to effect them, you'd just need to boost X to about 9 weeks.

And I'd hardly compare plate armor to full plate. It's so thick and heavy that even space marines can't move around in it powered down. Full plate needs to be light enough for the person inside it to move around in. Power Armor is ages (literally) ahead of full plate. I think it needs some kind of damage reduction, at least. Say power armor grants damage reduction 20/+1 and 10/- (doesn't stack with the 20/+1) in addition to the armor class bonus (13) and I think we're onto something.

Callos_DeTerran

2010-02-17, 01:51 AM

There doesn't need to be as much talk about the conversion of WH40K fluff to D&D rules or vice versa. I do remember a fairly well put together d20 modern WH40K rule set and d20 modern rules are virtually interchangeable with D&D ones.

But, in any case, I guess I can chip in on the subject though (fair warning, I am a bit of a devil fanboy, despite having read WH40KL stuff as well, I will try to be objective though). My chipping in mostly has to do with what responses the Space Marines have to...

Time Stop: The ultimate spell for setting up the battlefield against the enemy, or spelling their doom once the spell is ended.

Wish: This is even more important because the spell has so much DM fiat to function that how it works in WH40K verse needs to be clarified. "I wish all bolters were made of cheese." strikes my mind. :smallwink: And only partly as a joke.

The River Styx: This may not seem important unless the Space Marines invade the Nine Hells which...I honestly DON'T want to go into that, but considering the devils could very well bring bottles of the stuff to throw, it bears mention as an amnesiac space marine is just as much a threat to his fellows as to the devils, moreso because he'd lose any 'faith' he might have that would protect his mind and any indoctrination would be forgotten.

Asmodeus: I know I advocated the archdevils only getting involved in a leadership capacity, and I still do, but simple fact is this does not tremendously lessen the danger the Lord of the Ninth holds, it just means the Space Marines won't have to try and kill him. Do the Space Marines have a tactician of the same caliber on their own side? Granted, there would be a period of trial and error as Asmodeus figures out the capabilities of Imperium equipment, but after that...Well...this is the same archdevil who will save an infant from a burning building so one of his descendants will damn an entire Material Plane world in his name. Long-term thinking is not a problem and if the conflict is viewed as important enough then Asmodeus has no problems in directing the conflict himself (example: the Reckoning). He's undoubtedly the greatest strength that the devils have.

Hellfire: And I don't mean in the same way as the Hellfire guns of the Imperium. I mean fire hot enough it burns elemental incarnations of fire. The devils invented it and use it to great effect. Though in that same line, do the Space Marines have a way of countering the simple spam of fireballs?

Temptation: I'm not talking 'be imbued with the power of the warp' I mean 'give me/do this and I'll give you this' from more ammunition for stealing a camps food to the damnation of souls in return for 'the return of the God-Emperor'. That last is a rather extreme example I'm sure wouldn't come up, but the thought occurred to me in my mind.

There's other arguments, but I kinda want to see the responses to these first.

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 02:56 AM

However good asmodeus is at plotting, the deceiver and tzeentch are far better.

Asmodeus is by far the best in plotting in ALL the D&D universe. He fools GODS. At least, tzeench can hope in a tie...

Also, all thirteen thousand space wolves would smash hell's armies to bits.

This is exactly the mental behaviour that leads to defeat. "Ah! we're too much strong, we'll win without problem, no need to help".

Not to mention, the yugoloths may assist the imperium in disposing of the devils to replace them with more manipulatable humans.

When the Imperium will start shooting on sight the Yugoloth (after one round), we'll see.

Devils Space Marines are used to fighting a disorganized, border line tactically retarded foe. Now fighting an organized but still wildly unpredictable foe in the space wolves would be their doom.

Fixed for you.

Listen, claiming that SM will win because they're SM, will carry this debate nowhere.
SM were beaten a lot, by a large number of foes, starting from Orks and Tyranids. Some of said enemies, are even weaker than the devils.
A single chapter of SM, will not storm the gates of Hell.

Oslecamo

2010-02-17, 04:36 AM

Level 20 Fighters with incredible equipment is about the upper level for your nameless Space Marine. The chapters cited as being best-of-the-best (Grey Nights, Adaptus Custodes, etc.) would be in the 18-20 range. The rest of the Space Marine chapters would be a minimum of 15 or so.

Regular space Marines have been known for having been one-shoted by anti-tank weaponry from low level mooks, so that puts them at best at around level 3-5. Veteran terminators would be around level 6-8.

Grey knights may be a little over that, but well, they're heavily specialized in daemon fighting. Those wards and special weapons don't help them fight normal enemies more than regular space marine weapons.

Adeptus custodes are the ones who may be near epic level fighters, but they're considered to be be much stronger than space marines, even grey knights.

If they're Epic or beyond, they have a name. The Primarchs are epic level, the Emperor of Man is Epic level, etc.

Nobody in the Imperium has healing abilities whatsoever. That puts the Emperor of Man at level 12 at best (before one reaches limited wish level, wich would heal him), and everybody else is below him.

The general rule with levels is a character is supposed to double in power every two levels up until Epic, at which point they skyrocket into OMGROFL levels of power. Especially Wizards.
Luckily for the devils, there aren't wizards in WH40K. Just some medium level psions and sorcerors. They don't even have greater teleport!

And as shown for my horde argument, even medium level people are rare in WH40K, because swarming from basic mooks whitout special powers is a very effective tactic.

Also, since a space marine is suposed to be worth 10 guardsmen, that means they have around 2-3 levels of diference.

Imperial Guardsmen would be trained soldiers with some really nice equipment. Level 3-5 fighters with weapons and armor beyond their level.

Lasguns are renowed for being the weakest ranged weapon in the galaxy, and guardsmen usualy die by the droves. Flak armor also never saved anyone. So, lv1-2 fighters.

Selrahc

2010-02-17, 04:52 AM

Time Stop: The ultimate spell for setting up the battlefield against the enemy, or spelling their doom once the spell is ended.

They have their own time based magic. They can also cancel out the casting of spells in the area in much the same way as a counterspell.

Wish: This is even more important because the spell has so much DM fiat to function that how it works in WH40K verse needs to be clarified. "I wish all bolters were made of cheese." strikes my mind. :smallwink: And only partly as a joke.

That is pretty clearly outside the confines of wish, over powerful wishes don't get granted or are twisted horribly. The defences against a more reasonable wish are the defences against magic. Which aren't too bad.

The River Styx: This may not seem important unless the Space Marines invade the Nine Hells which...I honestly DON'T want to go into that, but considering the devils could very well bring bottles of the stuff to throw, it bears mention as an amnesiac space marine is just as much a threat to his fellows as to the devils, moreso because he'd lose any 'faith' he might have that would protect his mind and any indoctrination would be forgotten.

Despite the artwork the vast majority of Space Marines are wearing fully sealed environment suits as standard.

Asmodeus: I know I advocated the archdevils only getting involved in a leadership capacity, and I still do, but simple fact is this does not tremendously lessen the danger the Lord of the Ninth holds, it just means the Space Marines won't have to try and kill him. Do the Space Marines have a tactician of the same caliber on their own side? Granted, there would be a period of trial and error as Asmodeus figures out the capabilities of Imperium equipment, but after that...Well...this is the same archdevil who will save an infant from a burning building so one of his descendants will damn an entire Material Plane world in his name. Long-term thinking is not a problem and if the conflict is viewed as important enough then Asmodeus has no problems in directing the conflict himself (example: the Reckoning). He's undoubtedly the greatest strength that the devils have.

Every Chapter Master is supposed to be an incredible tactical and strategic planner. It might not be universally true but the wisdom experience and skill is emphasized in every existing backstory for a chapter master.

Asmodeus always struck me as more of a schemer and manipulator than war planner really.

Hellfire: And I don't mean in the same way as the Hellfire guns of the Imperium. I mean fire hot enough it burns elemental incarnations of fire. The devils invented it and use it to great effect. Though in that same line, do the Space Marines have a way of countering the simple spam of fireballs

Powerful heat resistant armour. And anti magic. And phenomenal toughness.

Temptation: I'm not talking 'be imbued with the power of the warp' I mean 'give me/do this and I'll give you this' from more ammunition for stealing a camps food to the damnation of souls in return for 'the return of the God-Emperor'. That last is a rather extreme example I'm sure wouldn't come up, but the thought occurred to me in my mind.

A heavy dogmatic hatred of daemons leaves them very prepared to resist temptation. A devil would be assumed to lie. If it was known he wasn't lying it would be assumed it was a trick. Space Marines are xenophobic nutcases and deals with the devil are not something they are prepared to do.

Nobody in the Imperium has healing abilities whatsoever. That puts the Emperor of Man at level 12 at best (before one reaches limited wish level, wich would heal him), and everybody else is below him.

No. Wrong on two counts. People in the Imperium can have pretty impressive healing abilities. The psychic discipline of biomancy covers incredible regenerative powers. The trouble is that it is self only.

It is a setting point in 40k that the powers of the warp can't heal others. But because we aren't playing in a DnD verse that doesn't mean that the emperor and primarchs aren't incredibly strong.

Oslecamo

2010-02-17, 05:13 AM

They have their own time based magic.
Yes. Warp time. Wich is basicaly haste, not time stop.

They can also cancel out the casting of spells in the area in much the same way as a counterspell.

But it won't protect them from more direct tequniques. Like just droping rocks from above!

Every Chapter Master is supposed to be an incredible tactical and strategic planner. It might not be universally true but the wisdom experience and skill is emphasized in every existing backstory for a chapter master.

Yes. They're suposed to. But they don't have telepathy to instantly relay orders. They don't have greater teleport to move around the battlefield where they are needed most.

Also, they go into battle personaly.

Asmodeus always struck me as more of a schemer and manipulator than war planner really.

He's both. The fluff states that while scheming and corrupting Asmodeus also prepares vast armies of devils for the final confrotations.

Powerful heat resistant armour. And anti magic. And phenomenal toughness.

Daemon fires from Chaos kills space marines fine. Only grey knights get anything resembling anti-magic, and even then it's more of a globe of invulnerability, making them immune only against low level stuff. And it still won't protect them from more direct tactics. Like rocks from above. Gotta love nonflying oponents.

As for phenomenal toughness, they can be 1-shoted from rocket launchers, melta guns and plasma weapons, even in the fluff. With their full armor on.

A heavy dogmatic hatred of daemons leaves them very prepared to resist temptation. A devil would be assumed to lie. If it was known he wasn't lying it would be assumed it was a trick. Space Marines are xenophobic nutcases and deals with the devil are not something they are prepared to do.

Except that devils are also masters of disguise. Some illusions here, some change shape there, and all you're seeing is a fellow brother marine.

No. Wrong on two counts. People in the Imperium can have pretty impressive healing abilities. The psychic discipline of biomancy covers incredible regenerative powers. The trouble is that it is self only.

That's a 3rd level psionic power, body adjustment. Self only. Pretty far from epic.

It is a setting point in 40k that the powers of the warp can't heal others. But because we aren't playing in a DnD verse that doesn't mean that the emperor and primarchs aren't incredibly strong.

Then what proves that they're incredible strong? The emperor almost got killed by a nameless warboss. Leman Russ fought some dire wolves. The Imperial Fists one repeled a drow raid. Angram couldn't defeat some slavers. Then they went on a crusade where they fight mostly hordes of low level enemies.

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 05:27 AM

Every Chapter Master is supposed to be an incredible tactical and strategic planner. It might not be universally true but the wisdom experience and skill is emphasized in every existing backstory for a chapter master.

Agree (they have access to data of thousands years of battles), but either is Bel and the Dark Eight, which are waging war since millenia: they are all expert generals and smart tacticians, with intelligence and experience far superior to any human, commanding legions of devils specifically born for war.
And all the experience of the Chapter Masters, don't stop them to commit mistakes, as the disaster of the Blood Raven's Kaurava campaign (Boreale - DoW II)

A heavy dogmatic hatred of daemons leaves them very prepared to resist temptation. A devil would be assumed to lie. If it was known he wasn't lying it would be assumed it was a trick.

And still they can be fooled. Even the Inquisitor Mordecai Toth trusted the wrong SM, who were corrupted by the taint of Chaos (always in DoW).

Selrahc

2010-02-17, 07:03 AM

Yes. Warp time. Wich is basicaly haste, not time stop.

In your opinion. Both Haste and Time Stop are the same idea taken to different levels of proficiency. A more powerful user of warp time should easily be able to get the effects of time stop, since warp time is clearly a more powerful ability than haste.

Time stop isn't a great defence against time stop anyway. Celerity is. And Warp time seems to imitate celerity except without the stun.

I mean theres also the fact that none of the devils have the ability to cast time stop, so it would be at best a freak occurrence.

But it won't protect them from more direct tequniques. Like just droping rocks from above!

I suppose that is why they have guns. To shoot at people attempting something so fiendishly clever.

Yes. They're suposed to. But they don't have telepathy to instantly relay orders. They don't have greater teleport to move around the battlefield where they are needed most.

Well
1. They do have telepathy. One of the chief roles of a librarian is to facilitate the ordering of commands, and long range telepathy is an easily achievable psychic power. Indeed since the Imperiums long range telepaths(including some Librarians) communicate over distances far greater than anything covered in DnD they arguably have the edge at that.

2. They also have vox beads and other communications gear. Which is as good as DnD telepathy.

3. Greater teleport isn't actually all that great unless you know the terrain. Since devils don't get scry, they're kind of at a loss. Before they can get their awesome mobility into play they're going to have to do a fair amount of conventional scouting.

Daemon fires from Chaos kills space marines fine. Only grey knights get anything resembling anti-magic, and even then it's more of a globe of invulnerability, making them immune only against low level stuff. And it still won't protect them from more direct tactics. Like rocks from above. Gotta love nonflying oponents.

As for phenomenal toughness, they can be 1-shoted from rocket launchers, melta guns and plasma weapons, even in the fluff. With their full armor on.

Probably would kill them really. But in order to use it they need to get close, and then the Space Marines would be returning fire.

Yes I know. Fireball has a really long range. Heavy weapons can match and exceed it, and use of cover can close the distance fast. (Bolt guns have a 300ft range, Heavy Bolters have a 380ft range, missile launchers have a 700ft+ range(Often hundreds of feet longer), lascannons have a 1000ft+ range)

Except that devils are also masters of disguise. Some illusions here, some change shape there, and all you're seeing is a fellow brother marine.

And that might be great for setting up an ambush, but this is a military organization and people don't let random strangers dictate policy.

Capturing a marine , ripping his secrets out of his mind and trying to infiltrate as him would probably be more successful but would still have to get past the Librarians and the auspexes.

That's a 3rd level psionic power, body adjustment. Self only. Pretty far from epic.

I'm sorry but if you don't have access to the book with the ability in I'm unsure how you can venture to make a definitive statement about its power level.

As it happens it is rather better than body adjustment, being able to replace lost limbs and organs(like the DnD regenerate spell), and healing you for large amounts of damage every round(better than the DnD regenerate spell) and capable of being sustained for long periods of time. Which puts it up to at least a level 7 spell, slightly marred by being a self only buff.

Volkov

2010-02-17, 07:58 AM

The blood ravens lost to a hundred baneblades, one of which is capable of taking on an entire modern day tank regiment and winning with ease. Plus, vance stubbs was a total badass.

Volkov

2010-02-17, 08:06 AM

So YOU claim, which is a bit much even by the Imperium's propaganda standards. A standard trained soldier is considered level 1, even for SM elite status with a template you don't have nigh epic warrior running around in any numbers no matter how long they live its not how the idea works.

Also if you want to run with frag grenades... well the Imperium's tech base for normal weaponry isn't more advanced then our own. How can I say this, all the purely normal weaponry that shows up in the books and places like Dark Heresy. A lasrifle is roughly a normal rifle with some logistics benefits. So a bolter is a rapid firing grenade launcher and a frag grenade is a fragmentation grenade. Which switching mediums to d20 modern does 4d6 slashing damage. So 12 average damage minus 5 for the DR works out to 7 damage, to a beastie that averages 45 HP. So only a moderate ouch to the bearded devil but hey its only a CR 5 and that's hardly scores of them per grenade.

Course I'm sure (warning:sarcasm) you believe that 40k weapons by virtue of being from the glorious and far future of the radiant and hopeful Imperium are arbitrarily infinitely superior to anything modern weapons turn out.
Lasrifles are stated as being able to punch through several feet of concrete in one shot.

The Glyphstone

2010-02-17, 08:10 AM

Nobody in the Imperium has healing abilities whatsoever. That puts the Emperor of Man at level 12 at best (before one reaches limited wish level, wich would heal him), and everybody else is below him.

Or, as I proposed earlier but you never offered a counterpoint, it's simply that Horus did an incredible amount of Vile damage to him, and the hideously degenerate and corrupt nature of the Imperium means that no one's ever researched a Consecrate or Hallow spell. They can spam Limited Wish and Wish all they like, but it can't replicate a spell that doesn't exist in-setting - and 'Heal the God-Emperor' has clearly already been denied by 40K's DM as an acceptable use of the Wish line's extra effect clause.

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 08:39 AM

Plus, vance stubbs was a total badass.

I totally agree on this.
Still, as reported also by Lexicanum, when a Warp Storm opened on Kaurava, followed by a large force of Alpha Legion Chaos Space Marines, the 252nd and 253rd Regiment were unprepared and suffered heavy losses.
Thus demonstrating that a typical tactic of devils (teleport to take enemy by surprise), can work very well against SM.

Oslecamo

2010-02-17, 09:28 AM

Or, as I proposed earlier but you never offered a counterpoint, it's simply that Horus did an incredible amount of Vile damage to him, and the hideously degenerate and corrupt nature of the Imperium means that no one's ever researched a Consecrate or Hallow spell. They can spam Limited Wish and Wish all they like, but it can't replicate a spell that doesn't exist in-setting - and 'Heal the God-Emperor' has clearly already been denied by 40K's DM as an acceptable use of the Wish line's extra effect clause.

Hmm, altough that's an interesting theory, it still doesn't explain why the Emperor, if he was an epic caster, was risking his skin in melee combat? If his psionic powers were so amazing, why did he pick up his pointy stick and charged at his son and they started stabbing each other?

Horus wasn't even a psion/caster himself! There was no reason whatsoever for the emperor to don't keep a safe distance, since chaos is indeed renowed for super corrupting melee weapons.

Also, the imperium isn't the only psionics in space. There are some good Eldar craftworlds that do nothing but try to fight against chaos corruption. They would have researched the needed spells.

hamishspence

2010-02-17, 09:33 AM

Not a caster before the influence of the Chaos gods- afterwards, he was.

The scene where an Imperial soldier (the type of soldier has changed over time, from normal man, to Imperial Fist Terminator, to Adeptus Custodes) enters the throne room, opens fire on Horus, and Horus responds by frying him with magic.

And the Emperor responds to this by directing all his psionic power into an attack on Horus- maybe because, in attacking his unfortunate victim, Horus let his defenses down.

Oslecamo

2010-02-17, 09:51 AM

The scene where an Imperial soldier (the type of soldier has changed over time, from normal man, to Imperial Fist Terminator, to Adeptus Custodes) enters the throne room, opens fire on Horus, and Horus responds by frying him with magic.

Ok, then the chaos gods granted him some magic. But the emperor is still mortaly wounded in melee. Why did he risk himself on melee?

And the Emperor responds to this by directing all his psionic power into an attack on Horus- maybe because, in attacking his unfortunate victim, Horus let his defenses down.

No, it's clearly stated in the fluff that the emperor was holding back on his lethal psionic attacks because he still tought his son could be redeemed. When Horus kills the soldier that enters, the emperor understands his son is beyond salvation, and shoots to kill.

However, that doesn't prove in any way that the emperor was an epic caster. "Don't save, just die" can be perfectly executed at lv12 against lower lv oponents. In particular at short range.

The emperor didn't have a contigency/astral projection/clone or anything similar. Or nonlethal psionic attacks to subdue his won whitout killing him.

Similarly, when Lemon Russ and Magnus face each other, they melee each other. Russ was definetely not a caster, and he was even a better melee than Horus. Yet Magnus stays on the ground and plays his game.

hamishspence

2010-02-17, 09:59 AM

A snippet from the original William King short story:

The Emperor looks at his former friend and shakes his head. He sees the trap that has ensnared Horus. "No man can master Chaos," he says quietly. "You have deluded yourself. You are the servant, not the master."

A look of rage transfigures the Warmaster. He stretches out a hand and a bolt of force leaps forth. The Emperor screams as agony wracks his body. "Feel the true nature of my power then tell me I am deluded," roars Horus, in the voice of an angry god.

Beads of sweat stand out on the Emperor's forehead, he steels himself against the pain. "You are deluded," he says.

Once again Horus gestures and lances of pure poison sear through the Emperor's veins. "I let you come here, old friend, so that you could witness my triumph. Kneel before me and I will spare you. Acknowledged the new master of mankind."

Desperately the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual, psychic.

Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightning claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed.

A backhand buffet from Horus knocks the Emperor through a stone bulkhead. The counterstroke tears a supporting column out of the ceiling as the Warmaster ducks.

In the warp the Emperor hears the Chaos Powers howl as they feed their pawn more power. The Lord of Humanity stands alone against their massed might and knows that he is losing. Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint.

A lightning claw cuts the Emperor's armour as if it were cloth, sheers through flesh and bone. The Emperor ripostes with a psychic stroke intended to disrupt the Warmaster's nervous system. Horus laughs as he deflects it.

His claws take the Emperor across the throat, opening windpipe and jugular. Another blow severs the tendons on his wrist, causing the sword to drop from nerveless fingers.

Insane laughter echoes round the chamber. Horus breaks several ribs with an almost playful punch. A surge of energy seers the Emperor's face, melting the flesh till it runs, bursting an eyeball, setting his hair alight. The Emperor stifles a whimper, wonders how he can be losing. Blackness threatens to engulf him.

Horus grasps his wrists, splintering bones. Blood pumps from the Emperor's throat. Horus lifts his foe above his head and brings him down across his knee, breaking his spine.

For a second the Emperor knows only darkness then a flare of agony brings him back to consciousness as Horus rips his arm from its socket. The Warmaster howls with bestial triumph.

Suddenly the battering stops. Through his good eye the Emperor sees a solitary Terminator has entered the room. The Marine charges towards the Warmaster, stormbolter blazing. Horus looks at him and laughs. For a moment he stands triumphant, allowing the Marine to see what he has done to his Emperor.

The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury.

Horus turns his burning gaze on the Terminator and the Marine's flesh flakes away to reveal his skeleton, then even that is gone, reduced to dust.

The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.

He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it as Horus, a lance of power destined for the madman's heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns to face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face.

The Emperor lets fly. It strikes the Warmaster. Horus screams as destruction rains down on him, twisting and writhing in titanic agony. He strives frantically to counter the Emperor's deathblow but his struggles become more feeble as the lethal energies play over him.

Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has committed flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there.

Horus is free but the Emperor knows he himself is dying and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die. Yet for a second, looking into his old friends face, he hesitates, unable to do the deed. Then he thinks of the slaughter that still goes on outside, may go on forever. Resolve hardens within him.

He forces all mercy and compassion from his mind, empties it of all knowledge of friendship and cameraderie and love. His eyes lock with Horus and see understanding there. Then with full cold knowledge of what he is doing the Emperor destroys the Warmaster.

Psychic powers & magic- at high power.

I figure that, translated to D&D, it would be on-the-fly epic casting- epic casting without the XP and gold expenditure to research.

In the case of the Emperor's final attack, the Slay seed might be the basis :smallamused:.

Oslecamo

2010-02-17, 10:20 AM

I figure that, translated to D&D, it would be on-the-fly epic casting- epic casting without the XP and gold expenditure to research.

Or perhaps just your psionic nuke of choice overchaneled and augmented. A classic and much more simple. The emperor could also be a fan of the sudden metamagic feats.

In the case of the Emperor's final attack, the Slay seed might be the basis :smallamused:.
Or a disintregate. The chaos gods have shown the ability to raise dead. Better destroy the body. Makes lots of sense. Super nuke to break Horus concentration and remove the soul splice effect, then disintregate to finish the weakened host.

But I'll give you, the final combat had a lot of psionics/magic after all. But can all be explained by low level D&D stuff.

If epic magic had really been used, then the whole ship would've been destroyed.:smallcool:

Fan

2010-02-17, 10:26 AM

Okay, Oslecamo.. It's sad that I have to point out what's in plain black and white.. but it said PLANET DESTROYING FORCE, and with more power than a SUPER NOVA.

It is FAR more than ANYTHING I have ever seen a non epic spell do. EVER. Even with the worst cheese in existence. Hell, even the things that exist by RAW (all your seed combinations are home brew thank you very much. By RAW the only ones that exist are the ones in the epic handbook, and the base seeds, no combinations there of.) epic spells don't live up to that.

hamishspence

2010-02-17, 10:48 AM

Or a disintregate. The chaos gods have shown the ability to raise dead. Better destroy the body. Makes lots of sense. Super nuke to break Horus concentration and remove the soul splice effect, then disintregate to finish the weakened host.

We know Horus's physical body wasn't destroyed- because shortly afterward, one faction of the Sons of Horus clones him.

Abaddon, objecting to this, destroys the clones, and renames the remnants the Black Legion.

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 11:05 AM

But I'll give you, the final combat had a lot of psionics/magic after all. But can all be explained by low level D&D stuff.

Except the part regarding "Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed", which seems Epic to me.
That said, it means very little. Yeah, the Emperor was an epic psyker, now he's stuck on his throne. Also Asmodeus the Avatar of Asmodeus is Epic, and good luck facing him.
Just for the record, Asmodeus in the Fiendish Codex II, has a CR of 24; and not only that one is not the real Asmodeus, but at the beginning of the book, is stated that all the 'information' could simply be devil propaganda to lure people in on the false pretenses of confidence.
So we have a simple Avatar of Asmodeus, that nominally has a CR 24, while in reality is stronger.

hamishspence

2010-02-17, 11:14 AM

Epic damage reduction, and challenge rating- no epic spellcasting though.

Alpha class psykers with the right speciality "snap a battle titan in two" "dominate hundreds of people at once" might qualify as epic spellcasters,

but I'm not sure if the Imperium has any Librarians, Grey Knight Grand Masters, or Inquisitors, on this power level- its possible that only renegade psykers reach this level of power.

Besides the Emperor, that is.

(I believe Ravenor is described as class Beta in the Ravenor books?)

Optimystik

2010-02-17, 11:21 AM

Has nobody here played Doom? Space Marines already won!

chiasaur11

2010-02-17, 11:24 AM

Has nobody here played Doom? Space Marines already won!

Correction. The DOOM Marine already won. He's like an Angry Marine, but with all the swearing replaced by demon killing.

The_JJ

2010-02-17, 11:38 AM

Eldan

2010-02-17, 11:44 AM

My points on the above:

1) I'm not sure on Air superiority, actually. While devils are manoeuvrable (perfectly, in some cases), I'd say planes are certainly faster, and most likely equipped with missiles and enough guns to screw up a devil's day. Also I doubt the Hells have AA guns, which the empire certainly has.

2) As said before, Wish is a main factor. And grease against spacies is just mean.

3) I can see the point for spacies being somewhat resistant to corruption and infiltration, but that leaves the point of the empire itself. They have to get their resources from somewhere.

4) Someone mentioned anti-teleport shields. I don't know anything about these, but let's assume they work. So that's probably a problem on the scry-and-die-the-emperor front.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-17, 11:44 AM

Oh god, the caps lock. The CAPS LOCK. I run in fear of it's awesome point making ability.

The problem is, no matter how much either side wanks about diamond tipped bullets or jaunts through lava, there are many points yet to be addressed.

Namely:

1. Air superiority. Demons or Marines? I'm inclined demons just because a super advanced future ship is a. not going to be able to target a flying demony thing, b. not going to be manuably aimable without coming to more... equitable speeds, which may or may not be below their minimum speeds, and c. not be able to manuver as well as the guys moving around via magic. But that's just speculation, feel free to argue against me.
I'm curious why auto-targeting wouldn't work. I mean, I'd wager there are airborne 'Nid forms not much bigger than an average flight-capable demon. Beyond that, ground-based defenses ought to hold out pretty well. Especially the flack-type systems.

2. If wishes were fishes... the Spacies might have a better chance. As it stands I see a lot of Wishing for Grease and Glitterdust going on.
And as it stands, only the highest level demons/devils can do that. And they can only do it once a day. It's not an unlimited spell or anything. Handy, very much so. The Ultimate Win Button? Not as likely.

3. I've yet to see a response to Demons manipulating Space Marines logistics/higher command/saying eff it and teleporting around the Imperium gleefully wasting everything while the Marines thin out, spread out, and lose all the production centers for their PRETTY TOYS.
I thought all the talk regarding warding against Daemons and Warp horrors and such were said to be likely to work here. In other words, no the Demons can't just teleport in. And "manipulating" would be pretty dang hard. A lot of those guys would spot weird dudes popping up saying "have I got an offer for you!". And as for mind control...I'd wager their saves would be ridonkulous.

4. Teloport. Whack Emperor. Laugh.
Except that it's not going to be nearly that easy. There are probably more wards and protective seals on the Throne itself (as in, the device immediately surrounding the Emperor) than on some planets. Add to that all the wards and defenses of the Palace (which, if I remember right, is as big as a continent), as well as the presence of the Custodes (not to be taken lightly), and I don't think it's as simple as you say.

Eldan

2010-02-17, 11:46 AM

I still say... if a few thousand pit fiends use their wish to kill a few thousand top rank spacies, then the spacies have a serious problem.

The Glyphstone

2010-02-17, 11:52 AM

If we're going that route, then it's no contest...no source has specifically defined the number of Pit Fiends at Hell's command, while we can pinpoint the maximum number of Space Marines (# of chapters x 1000). So as long as # of pit fiends >= # of Marines, Hell wins?

Eldan

2010-02-17, 11:53 AM

Exactly. Of course, that's the cheap way. I can see Asmodeus sacrificing a few thousand lemures to get his hands on a few spacie souls.

The_JJ

2010-02-17, 12:00 PM

I'm curious why auto-targeting wouldn't work. I mean, I'd wager there are airborne 'Nid forms not much bigger than an average flight-capable demon. Beyond that, ground-based defenses ought to hold out pretty well. Especially the flack-type systems.

Hmm... point. I was figuring biological-ish targets would be hard to track with radar or thermals, but seeing as they fight 'Nids... yeah. Give it to you.

And as it stands, only the highest level demons/devils can do that. And they can only do it once a day. It's not an unlimited spell or anything. Handy, very much so. The Ultimate Win Button? Not as likely.

Grease is the Ultimate Win Button. :smallbiggrin:

I thought all the talk regarding warding against Daemons and Warp horrors and such were said to be likely to work here. In other words, no the Demons can't just teleport in. And "manipulating" would be pretty dang hard. A lot of those guys would spot weird dudes popping up saying "have I got an offer for you!". And as for mind control...I'd wager their saves would be ridonkulous.

Hmm... assuming every planet can teleport warded... they can always get onto cargo/transport ships or something. (Teach someone to ritual up a Gate? Common D&D theme, stop the cultists summoning before the CR (our level) +4 thingy comes through.) From that point, disguises can work them into anywhere that isn't super high level top security clearence. Manipulation from there would be easy. You wouldn't need mind control, just pretty words and a good disguise. These are your 'slow corruptor, here have your deepest desire at a time of crisis in such a manner that no matter what you do we win' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html) type plotters.

Except that it's not going to be nearly that easy. There are probably more wards and protective seals on the Throne itself (as in, the device immediately surrounding the Emperor) than on some planets. Add to that all the wards and defenses of the Palace (which, if I remember right, is as big as a continent), as well as the presence of the Custodes (not to be taken lightly), and I don't think it's as simple as you say.

Granted, the Emperor might be out, but the rest of the Imperium is in some serious trouble facing a non-WH40K fight it out type threat.

Callos_DeTerran

2010-02-17, 12:02 PM

And as it stands, only the highest level demons/devils can do that. And they can only do it once a day. It's not an unlimited spell or anything. Handy, very much so. The Ultimate Win Button? Not as likely.

The Nessus Legion is composed of nothing but pit fiends and numbers in the millions, the numbers growing every day. (source, Fiendish Codex II)

I thought all the talk regarding warding against Daemons and Warp horrors and such were said to be likely to work here. In other words, no the Demons can't just teleport in. And "manipulating" would be pretty dang hard. A lot of those guys would spot weird dudes popping up saying "have I got an offer for you!". And as for mind control...I'd wager their saves would be ridonkulous.

Likely to work as the equivalent D&D magic, which is still saying a lot, but it also stands to reasons those same wards could be dispelled or disjoined. And any devil that pops up, looking obviously out of place, and starts with 'have I got an offer for you!' is not only a fool, but on the swift swift path of demotion and/or death for being moronic. That's not how diabolic temptation works. Maybe, but they only need to fail once or twice, especially if said spells are aimed at high-ranking members, to cause utter chaos in the ranks. Especially considering a dominated Space Marine looks no more different from a regular Space Marine except he doesn't talk when spoken to unless instructed too.

Except that it's not going to be nearly that easy. There are probably more wards and protective seals on the Throne itself (as in, the device immediately surrounding the Emperor) than on some planets. Add to that all the wards and defenses of the Palace (which, if I remember right, is as big as a continent), as well as the presence of the Custodes (not to be taken lightly), and I don't think it's as simple as you say.

No comment on this, I don't know anything about the Throne or it's defenses.

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 12:06 PM

I thought all the talk regarding warding against Daemons and Warp horrors and such were said to be likely to work here. In other words, no the Demons can't just teleport in.

If a place is warded, sure. But you can't ward a battlefield, neither a planet.
As I've said before, as reported also by Lexicanum, when a Warp Storm opened on Kaurava, followed by a large force of Alpha Legion Chaos Space Marines, the 252nd and 253rd Regiment were unprepared and suffered heavy losses.
Thus demonstrating that a typical tactic of devils (teleport to take enemy by surprise), can work very well against SM.

And "manipulating" would be pretty dang hard.

we've a lot of precedents.
The Inquisitor Mordecai Toth trusted a Librarian, who were corrupted by the taint of Chaos (DoW).
Always in DoW, the Imperial Guard Forces were suspected by the Sisters of Battle of having caused a Warp Storm. General Stubbs refuses to submit to Inquisition, waging war on the other Imperial factions.
Imperial forces, are very quick in suspecting each others of treason and heresy.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-17, 12:12 PM

It would be easier to break into planets than ships. Void shields are explicitly designed to prevent horrors from teleporting on while in the warp.

Admittedly, not every planet is likely to be warded. But Forge Worlds would take serious efforts to break onto like that.

But yes, if we have millions of Pit Fiends, it goes to them, due to sheer numbers, and the admittedly imperfect protections of the Imperium.

Of course, taking 3.5 magic (of high enough level) against anything not of equal or greater brokenness equals a win.

...So why did this conversation even start?:smallconfused:

I mean, everyone should know 3e/3.5e DND is stupid-broken. That's just how it is. Taking it up against anything not either itself, Exalted, or something similar is pointless, because it comes down to either "LOL Wish" or "LOL Epic Spells".

Callos_DeTerran

2010-02-17, 12:25 PM

But yes, if we have millions of Pit Fiends, it goes to them, due to sheer numbers, and the admittedly imperfect protections of the Imperium.

I mention the Nessian Guard only to provide the point that, facing extinction, the Nine Hells do indeed have millions of pit fiends at their disposal. Asmodeus holds them back for the final assault on the heaven though, so whither or not it'd take part in this battle is an unknown.

Of course, taking 3.5 magic (of high enough level) against anything not of equal or greater brokenness equals a win.

...So why did this conversation even start?:smallconfused:

I mean, everyone should know 3e/3.5e DND is stupid-broken. That's just how it is. Taking it up against anything not either itself, Exalted, or something similar is pointless, because it comes down to either "LOL Wish" or "LOL Epic Spells".

I wasn't assuming the stupid/broken tricks or unintentional uses the designers didn't playtest for, but the tactics I believe the diabolic legions would actually USE so...yeah. Teleport-and-die is one of their favorite tactics, so is blanketing everything in fire/hellfire, etc because they are incredibly smart opponents who USE that intelligence.

My question is, why would the Nine Hells even fight the Space Marines? It's not their style for direct conflict unless the fight is brought to them and honestly Holy Terra has always seemed like the most coveted hunting grounds for devils.

warty goblin

2010-02-17, 12:29 PM

Correction. The DOOM Marine already one. He's like an Angry Marine, but with all the swearing replaced by demon killing.

Well yeah, but putting anything up against the DOOM Marine is utterly unfair, because he has mastered the three universal answers to every problem:

Answer 1) Chainsaw

Answer 2) Shotgun.

Answer 3) You do not want him to use answer three. It's very name is unprintable.

Volkov

2010-02-17, 12:31 PM

The custodes are so dedicated to their duty that the inquisition doesn't check on them save for unusual circumstances, and not even a pit fiend is likely to beat one. They do not let anyone see the emperor without going through security. Plus, killing the emperor might actually just fuel his rebirth, something that would definitely swing the tide in the imperium's favor. I bet you that not even asmodeus could survive what the emperor did to horus.

Renegade Paladin

2010-02-17, 12:34 PM

As I've said before, as reported also by Lexicanum, when a Warp Storm opened on Kaurava, followed by a large force of Alpha Legion Chaos Space Marines, the 252nd and 253rd Regiment were unprepared and suffered heavy losses.
Thus demonstrating that a typical tactic of devils (teleport to take enemy by surprise), can work very well against SM.
You do realize that it refers to the 252nd and 253rd Kauravan regiments of the Imperial Guard, right?

warty goblin

2010-02-17, 12:38 PM

You do realize that it refers to the 252nd and 253rd Kauravan regiments of the Imperial Guard, right?

I'm also fairly sure an Imperial Guard regiment suffers heavy losses when somebody sneezes.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-17, 12:43 PM

I'm also fairly sure an Imperial Guard regiment suffers heavy losses when somebody sneezes.

Only because the snot is acidic and on fire. :smalltongue:

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 01:10 PM

You do realize that it refers to the 252nd and 253rd Kauravan regiments of the Imperial Guard, right?

Yes, I know, but it's a notable example.
Or do you think that teleport works to ambush the Imperial Guards, but not to ambush SM?

I bet you that not even asmodeus could survive what the emperor did to horus.

The Emperor is/was an epic psyker. Also Asmodeus the Avatar of Asmodeus is Epic. In the Fiendish Codex II, has a CR of 24; and not only that one is not the real Asmodeus, but at the beginning of the book, is stated that all the 'information' could simply be devil propaganda to lure people in on the false pretenses of confidence.
So we have a simple Avatar of Asmodeus, that nominally has a CR 24, while in reality is stronger.

chiasaur11

2010-02-17, 01:19 PM

Well yeah, but putting anything up against the DOOM Marine is utterly unfair, because he has mastered the three universal answers to every problem:

Answer 1) Chainsaw

Answer 2) Shotgun.

Answer 3) You do not want him to use answer three. It's very name is unprintable.

What about BFG and Manly Fists based solutions?

Selrahc

2010-02-17, 01:25 PM

1. Air superiority. Demons or Marines? I'm inclined demons just because a super advanced future ship is a. not going to be able to target a flying demony thing, b. not going to be manuably aimable without coming to more... equitable speeds, which may or may not be below their minimum speeds, and c. not be able to manuver as well as the guys moving around via magic. But that's just speculation, feel free to argue against me.

Thunderhawk Gunships are the marines flyer of choice. It has VTOL and can hover in place. It is fully capable of taking down small airborne fast moving targets and has an incredible amount of firepower. In any sky engagement where Marines can deploy Thunderhawks they should win.

2. If wishes were fishes... the Spacies might have a better chance. As it stands I see a lot of Wishing for Grease and Glitterdust going on.

The wishes could cause some damage. But the two spells you gave as an example definitely wouldn't. Space Marines have perfect balance due to the Lyman's ear implant they receive, and have autosenses in their helmets to protect them from glitterdust.

3. I've yet to see a response to Demons manipulating Space Marines logistics/higher command/saying eff it and teleporting around the Imperium gleefully wasting everything while the Marines thin out, spread out, and lose all the production centers for their PRETTY TOYS.

In order to teleport you need to have knowledge of your destination. Getting that knowledge would be nearly impossible. Scrying can only do a little, since they would have no real idea of who to scry, and devils don't really have a large complement of seers anyway.

Manipulating Space Marine logistics would be pretty hard. You'd need to infiltrate their chain of command, and work your way up. All while avoiding routine auspex sweeps, or nearby psykers. And to do this you need to approximate being a Space Marine well enough that your Battle Brothers do not suspect you.

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 01:36 PM

Manipulating Space Marine logistics would be pretty hard. You'd need to infiltrate their chain of command, and work your way up. All while avoiding routine auspex sweeps, or nearby psykers. And to do this you need to approximate being a Space Marine well enough that your Battle Brothers do not suspect you.

Certainly it's not easy, but can be done. It happened in the past.
The Inquisitor Mordecai Toth trusted a Librarian, who were corrupted by the taint of Chaos (DoW) and, always in DoW, the Imperial Guard Forces had a fight with the Sisters of Battle.
Imperial forces, are very quick in suspecting each others of treason and heresy.
A mere suspect can break the line of command and the imperial structure. It's the kind of scheming in which devils excel. Then, i don't know if in the fluff of WH40K there's anything related, but for the devils, is simpler to infiltrate a spy, than for the daemons (harvester devil, etc)

Renegade Paladin

2010-02-17, 02:17 PM

The Inquisitor Mordecai Toth trusted a Librarian, who were corrupted by the taint of Chaos (DoW).
Always in DoW, the Imperial Guard Forces were suspected by the Sisters of Battle of having caused a Warp Storm. General Stubbs refuses to submit to Inquisition, waging war on the other Imperial factions.
Imperial forces, are very quick in suspecting each others of treason and heresy.

The Inquisitor Mordecai Toth trusted a Librarian, who were corrupted by the taint of Chaos (DoW).
Always in DoW, the Imperial Guard Forces were suspected by the Sisters of Battle of having caused a Warp Storm. General Stubbs refuses to submit to Inquisition, waging war on the other Imperial factions.
Imperial forces, are very quick in suspecting each others of treason and heresy.
Out of curiosity, how many times do you plan to C&P this? :smalltongue:

The second repetition doesn't really work, by the way, because you said that an outsider infiltrating the Space Marines had been done before and then... proceeded to not cite anything similar happening.

warty goblin

2010-02-17, 02:44 PM

What about BFG and Manly Fists based solutions?

Answer 3 is in fact an oblique reference to the BFG, because it's actual name is unprintable on this forum.

Manly fists are actually a subclass of Chainsaw.

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 03:38 PM

Out of curiosity, how many times do you plan to C&P this? :smalltongue:

Well, it was lazy from me, I know... :smallredface:
Selrahc made a point, and imo what i've said a litle before, was indicated. The alternative was redirecting him to my previous post. Not a so great difference, but I won't do it again. :smallwink:
Anyway, I edited the 2nd post, adding a little more to the discussion. :smallbiggrin:

Volkov

2010-02-17, 03:42 PM

Yes, I know, but it's a notable example.
Or do you think that teleport works to ambush the Imperial Guards, but not to ambush SM?

The Emperor is/was an epic psyker. Also Asmodeus the Avatar of Asmodeus is Epic. In the Fiendish Codex II, has a CR of 24; and not only that one is not the real Asmodeus, but at the beginning of the book, is stated that all the 'information' could simply be devil propaganda to lure people in on the false pretenses of confidence.
So we have a simple Avatar of Asmodeus, that nominally has a CR 24, while in reality is stronger.
Devils have no knowledge of metagaming principles such as HD. Thus they cannot make any propaganda of such things. Also, the book of vile darkness shows his actual form as only being a 35 hd creature, with no power to cast epic spells (he still can only emulate a level 20 cleric's spells, even when using his true form and not his aspect.)

Killer Angel

2010-02-17, 04:05 PM

Devils have no knowledge of metagaming principles such as HD. Thus they cannot make any propaganda of such things. Also, the book of vile darkness shows his actual form as only being a 35 hd creature, with no power to cast epic spells (he still can only emulate a level 20 cleric's spells, even when using his true form and not his aspect.)

Don't know the version of BoVD, so I cannot comment.
But I don't know if HD are a matagaming principles... a lot of their hierarchy is based on physical ranks and, anyway, things like SA, DR, equipment, etc, are subjects to lies. (BTW, i checked better: his CR is 27, not 24)

That said, i don't think the point of the discussion is The Emperor Vs Asmodeus... :smallsmile:

Well, now I go to bed. See y'all tomorrow.

Volkov

2010-02-17, 05:40 PM

Don't know the version of BoVD, so I cannot comment.
But I don't know if HD are a matagaming principles... a lot of their hierarchy is based on physical ranks and, anyway, things like SA, DR, equipment, etc, are subjects to lies. (BTW, i checked better: his CR is 27, not 24)

That said, i don't think the point of the discussion is The Emperor Vs Asmodeus... :smallsmile:

Well, now I go to bed. See y'all tomorrow.

The tome of bad classes err magic clearly states that the creatures of D&D do not know of hit dice as it is an abstract metagame concept.

The_JJ

2010-02-17, 06:27 PM

Thunderhawk Gunships are the marines flyer of choice. It has VTOL and can hover in place. It is fully capable of taking down small airborne fast moving targets and has an incredible amount of firepower. In any sky engagement where Marines can deploy Thunderhawks they should win.

Granted. In which case... teleport to airfield (or, since they have VTOL, clearing-where-they-keep-fuel/ammo), fireball fuel stores and ammo dumps. Retake air superiority, force the Marines to fight from beneath a ground based air umberella. No coup, but a mean trick for sure.

The wishes could cause some damage. But the two spells you gave as an example definitely wouldn't. Space Marines have perfect balance due to the Lyman's ear implant they receive, and have autosenses in their helmets to protect them from glitterdust.

... do you realize how your ears work? When I step on ice my ears aren't the problem. It's the whole 'foot loosing traction shooting out and whoa my center of mass is, in fact, off center crap ow.'

Now, if I had good ear implants, I'd know how my head was oriented to local gravity, sure. You couldn't spin me around and make me dizzy, but that's not going to help your feet stay centered.

In order to teleport you need to have knowledge of your destination. Getting that knowledge would be nearly impossible. Scrying can only do a little, since they would have no real idea of who to scry, and devils don't really have a large complement of seers anyway.

You don't scry a person. You scry, say, Imperial plant #12093. Any location, any body there. Teleport into a place you can't be seen. Cause chaos. You don't need a lot of information, seers, or smarts to get involved.

Manipulating Space Marine logistics would be pretty hard. You'd need to infiltrate their chain of command, and work your way up. All while avoiding routine auspex sweeps, or nearby psykers. And to do this you need to approximate being a Space Marine well enough that your Battle Brothers do not suspect you.

Logistics =/= leadership. Yeah, uber Marines are uber. But everybodies got to ea, replace damaged parts, get bullets, whatever. No where in there do you need to target the chain of command. Target the farms and the cargo ships. Target the factories and the fuel.

Or hell, (teehee) target the people. Burn worlds or better, get the Imperium to do it for you while you teleport home. No recruits, no support, no food, no fuel, force the Marines to spread out, try to defend everything, and then swarm the isolated groups.

Selrahc

2010-02-17, 06:59 PM

Granted. In which case... teleport to airfield (or, since they have VTOL, clearing-where-they-keep-fuel/ammo), fireball fuel stores and ammo dumps. Retake air superiority, force the Marines to fight from beneath a ground based air umberella. No coup, but a mean trick for sure.

Keep the ammo and the ships on the space ship. Space Marines, predictably enough, base their operations off their space ships. Thunderhawks are capable of space flight and in fact are one of the main ways to bring down supplies.

The space ship isn't capable of being teleported into. Spaceships are specifically and heavily warded against being teleported into as long as the gellar field is working.

... do you realize how your ears work? When I step on ice my ears aren't the problem. It's the whole 'foot loosing traction shooting out and whoa my center of mass is, in fact, off center crap ow.'

The thing is that ears in a real person are actually hugely influential on that persons centre of mass. Balance is actually heavily to do with the ears, even though it isn't their primary function.

If you want it in DnD terms: 5 ranks of balance is enough to almost negate grease making you slip over. 10 ranks makes it pretty ineffective in general. I think having a specific organ dedicated to balance should give them a pretty hefty racial bonus.

You don't scry a person. You scry, say, Imperial plant #12093. Any location, any body there. Teleport into a place you can't be seen. Cause chaos. You don't need a lot of information, seers, or smarts to get involved.

The scry spell says person. The only thing that does anything else and would be useful at interstellar ranges would be discern location. Discern location suffers two pitfalls. You probably don't have enough information to cast it, and you probably don't gain enough information from the spell to teleport there properly.

Logistics =/= leadership. Yeah, uber Marines are uber. But everybodies got to ea, replace damaged parts, get bullets, whatever. No where in there do you need to target the chain of command. Target the farms and the cargo ships. Target the factories and the fuel.

But that relies on the ability to massively infiltrate the chain of command in order to find out where the Space Marines are being supplied from.

The reality is that the Marines are mainly ship based when in combat. And the ship should be secure. They gain their supplies from other ships which are also secure. These ships ply vast trade routes across a massive galactic empire consisting of over a million worlds. They supply military and civilian forces numbering in the quadrillions and the supply to the Space Marines is a drop in the ocean. You are saying that in order to disrupt the Space Marines they should undertake the simple task of crippling the economy of an entire galactic empire, despite not knowing any of the planets in the empire that would cause damage, and with no means of attacking the ships that bring the supplies or to directly hit the vast bulk of supplies that are at the battlefield because they are on the impenetrable space ships.

Hitting a Marines fortress world would be a step I suppose. Each one could be learnt about fairly easily from the Chapter involved. But hitting a Chapter right at its point of greatest strength, where it has enormous defences in place and troops in reserve seems like a tough call. Doing it a thousand times seems like suicide if the devils didn't have incredible numbers of powerful troops.

It wouldn't work in all cases either. Some Marines are entirely fleet based(Dark Angels, Imperial Fists). Some have dispersed homeworlds(Black Templars), or ones that would be protected from teleportation(Grey Knights). But it would be a way to bring the fight to the enemy on a ground where victory would directly hurt them.

EDIT: It might be helpful to clarify my position at this point. I think devils would win. They have a hell of a lot of incredibly powerful individuals, outnumbering Space Marines heavily with just troops that are *at worst* as good as them. I do not however think the devils have any instant win buttons, or that it would be some kind of walk over. They may win, but it would not be an easy fight.

Oslecamo

2010-02-17, 07:17 PM

The reality is that the Marines are mainly ship based when in combat. And the ship should be secure. They gain their supplies from other ships which are also secure. These ships ply vast trade routes across a massive galactic empire consisting of over a million worlds. They supply military and civilian forces numbering in the quadrillions and the supply to the Space Marines is a drop in the ocean. You are saying that in order to disrupt the Space Marines they should undertake the simple task of crippling the economy of an entire galactic empire, despite not knowing any of the planets in the empire that would cause damage, and with no means of attacking the ships that bring the supplies or to directly hit the vast bulk of supplies that are at the battlefield because they are on the impenetrable space ships.

Just to point a couple of things:
1-The imperium has a lot of resources, but it also has a nightmarish bureaucracy. If a regular supply line is disrupted, then you'll need months to requisition a new one.

Mind you, most chapters have their own forges, but, see point 2.

2-Even if shields block teleportation, they don't block direct aproach of physical objects, as assaulting enemy ships with troops is a commonly used tactic by several factions. Thus, the devils can infiltrate ships simply by teleporting to the outside of the shields, hold their breath, pass the shield, then find some shaft/glass and teleport trough.

The other WH40K factions can't really do this because they have unstable teleporting wich may make them end up in the middle of a wall and lack any kind of efecient personal flight method. Except for nids. Who literaly eat their way trough ships hulls.

EDIT:Also, in both chaos codex and Space Marine codex there are stories of terminators being teleported directly inside the enemy main fortifications, wich you would expect to be shielded against teleport.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-17, 07:17 PM

It wouldn't work in all cases either. Some Marines are entirely fleet based(Dark Angels, Imperial Fists). Some have dispersed homeworlds(Black Templars), or ones that would be protected from teleportation(Grey Knights). But it would be a way to bring the fight to the enemy on a ground where victory would directly hurt them.

Unless it's void-shielded any fortress is only a fortress until someone in space can be arsed to get around to bombarding it from orbit. I imagine any heavily fortified point will be proofed against teleportation. Many planets also have significant planetary defense networks, and it isn't out of the question to say that, for example, in the case of major hive worlds the entire surface will be shielded. Of course that only applies when the shield is actually activated, which would only be in times of attack. I still stand by my statement that any serious fortification will be shielded against teleport at all times. After all, if they weren't, it would only be a matter of teleporting in, disabling the shields, and teleporting out, then bombing them into dust from orbit.

Volkov

2010-02-17, 07:19 PM

Just to point a couple of things:
1-The imperium has a lot of resources, but it also has a nightmarish bureaucracy. If a regular supply line is disrupted, then you'll need months to requisition a new one.

Mind you, most chapters have their own forges, but, see point 2.

2-Even if shields block teleportation, they don't block direct aproach of physical objects, as assaulting enemy ships with troops is a commonly used tactic by several factions. Thus, the devils can infiltrate ships simply by teleporting to the outside of the shields, hold their breath, pass the shield, then find some shaft/glass and teleport trough.

Then the Vacuum of space kills them or they are fried by the point defenses of the Battle barge. Holding your breath actually makes kills you more quickly in space.

The Glyphstone

2010-02-17, 07:29 PM

Then the Vacuum of space kills them or they are fried by the point defenses of the Battle barge. Holding your breath actually makes kills you more quickly in space.

You can survive for a surprising amount of time in vacumn. The Devils only need to endure 6 seconds of total vacumn/point defense fire to pull that off (Teleport in, normal move inside the shield, Teleport through)...humans can stay conscious for up to 15 seconds in that environment.
If the shields are tight against the hull...which would actually be strange.

Caveat: We do not know how far out the shields extend beyond the hull. This could prove to be an obstacle.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-17, 07:33 PM

Just to point a couple of things:
1-The imperium has a lot of resources, but it also has a nightmarish bureaucracy. If a regular supply line is disrupted, then you'll need months to requisition a new one.

2-Even if shields block teleportation, they don't block direct aproach of physical objects, as assaulting enemy ships with troops is a commonly used tactic by several factions. Thus, the devils can infiltrate ships simply by teleporting to the outside of the shields, hold their breath, pass the shield, then find some shaft/glass and teleport trough.

1- The Space Marines operate as independently from the rest of the Imperium as possible. They maintain their own supply lines, drawing their material from worlds under their rule and protection. And if you start messing around with a chapter's home planets, they are going to take great offense.

2- Few things:
a. What stops teleportation isn't the void shields, it's the Gellar fields, which cover the entire ship. You can't just "pass through" it and then teleport inside.
b. Imperial ships are bristling with point defense weapons. I'm sure they're not standardized, but you can probably expect lasers (lascannon equivalent or greater), plasma turrets, autocannons, railguns, and all other manner of weapons more than capable of taking out a few rogue fiends. Not to mention the fighters flying around on sentry duty.
Devils don't have anything on the sheer scale of Imperial naval power. Ships as small as frigates are capable of carrying out exterminatus. They don't have a shadow of a chance in space.

Selrahc

2010-02-17, 07:46 PM

I think an attempt to take on a spaceship in space with troops that can't breathe in space and have no real way to damage or enter it would be a brilliant way for the devils to lose their numbers advantage.

Best way to kill ships is to sabotage the Geller field. Each time you do that you could swamp a ship with teleporting devils and take out a fairly major asset for a chapter. Unlike infiltrating a marine chapter infiltrating a ship should be a lot easier. Find a big population hub that the Imperial Navy recruits from. Pretend to be any random void scum with the aid of illusions and get yourself hired onto the ship. Get to the Geller field and smash it with good old fashioned brute force. Teleport out to a prearanged destination with an army. Get them to teleport back with you and wreck the joint.

There are serious risks and barriers, finding a recruiting ground, passing as an imperial citizen, getting safely aboard the ship, breaking the gellar field before the crew stops you... but to take out a powerful warship? Well worth the attempt.

Volkov

2010-02-17, 08:06 PM

Also, if Asmodeus/Bel personally leads an army to attack Terra, They'll beat the two most badass custodes members, only for Gazghkull to come out of nowhere before the devils can deal the death blow with his Ork Boyz, beat both the Diabolical armies and the forces of mankind, then waltz up to Asmodeus/Bel and beat them upside the head before declaring "Gazghkull is Da best!" Then walks away, leaving a near dying archdevil and some very confused 'umiez.

Oh yes, I went there. I just ripped off Grimgor.

The Glyphstone

2010-02-18, 12:49 AM

Killer Angel

2010-02-18, 02:55 AM

That'd be the only effective way to take out a ship - and as an added bonus to this plan, if you do manage to sabotage the Geller generator, the ship is almost stranded, since it can only travel at sublight.

Another possibility (but I don't know if it can work), is to "sacrifice" a group of advanced pit fiends (Asmodeus' daily production?).
Some whishes to bring down the geller field for a couple of rounds, while the squad teleports in the ship (generators' zone), starting doing massive damage via spells, summoning other devils, animating the dead SM, etc.
The objective is to destroy the generator. At that point, the ship is a sitting duck (well, not exactly... :smalltongue:)

Oslecamo

2010-02-18, 05:09 AM

I think an attempt to take on a spaceship in space with troops that can't breathe in space and have no real way to damage or enter it would be a brilliant way for the devils to lose their numbers advantage.

Really?

First, devils can hold their breath for plenty of time. Or perhaps burn a wish or two to replicate spells to go trough this. There are spells to ignore enviromental hardships.

Second, the hardest metal the Emperium has available is adamantium. We have it's statistics. 40HP per inch of tickness. 20 Hardness. Altough it's tough, any brute devil with power attack can damage and punch trough it with some effort. A horned devil, for example, can easily deal more than 45 damage per blow when full power attacking. Make him a shock trooper specialists by swaping his feats and he's punching trough it even faster.

Assuming, of course, that you can make a whole ship out of adamantium. Wich I somewhat doubt, with it being a rare metal and everything. I believe I remember something about they being made mostly of reinforced steel.

Finaly, in Chaos Demons codex there's the short story on how a lonely soul grinder punches trough a battle barge's walls and proceeds to slaughter the space marines inside. There's no mention of static defences/turrets. Space wolves codex has the story on how a few terminators jump from their dying ship, punch their way trough the enemy chaos ship's hull and proceed to conquer it. In both cases, a relatively low number of troops wrecks havoc in a space ship just by geting close enough to the hull. It's not even a new tactic in WH40K. The devils just have the tools to do it better.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-18, 07:57 AM

DnD uses adamantine, not adamantium.

Not a huge difference in names, but it likely makes all the difference in the world.

So, no, we don't have stats for adamantium, so no, we don't know how easy it is to get through the stuff. But likely quite a bit more difficult to get through than you're implying. Considering the hefty guns it has to stand up to, I'd say it would probably laugh off a bunch of devils trying to scratch inside.

Also, can someone refresh me on what devils, besides Pit Fiends, get Wish as an SLA? Because some people seem to be implying that every devil down to a lemure gets it, and I know that's not true.

Eldan

2010-02-18, 08:35 AM

KnightDisciple

2010-02-18, 08:48 AM

Look at the Adamantine in DnD: if a rifle does 2d10 damage, that means that not even with maximum damage can it even scratch the stuff. That's plenty of stopping power, even in only one inch. To shoot through an inch of that stuff, a weapon has to deal 60 damage in one shot. Not that easy.

I have no reason to assume they are the same material, though.

I mean, they use it (among other materials) in Terminator Armor, which is...really really hard to damage.

It just seems silly to me to assume that a material that doesn't share the same name (which is kind of important with metallurgy) shares the exact same properties. Especially since doing so trivializes the compound in favor of the other side.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-18, 10:09 AM

Second, the hardest metal the Emperium has available is adamantium. We have it's statistics. 40HP per inch of tickness. 20 Hardness. Altough it's tough, any brute devil with power attack can damage and punch trough it with some effort. A horned devil, for example, can easily deal more than 45 damage per blow when full power attacking. Make him a shock trooper specialists by swaping his feats and he's punching trough it even faster.
D&D Adamantine does not equal 40k Adamantium, as has already been pointed out. Imperial warships fire weapons with yields measured in the kilotons, and their armor enables them to resist attacks on the same order of magnitude. The thickness of their armor is measured in metres. You don't just waltz up and cut your way in. And the whole time you're going to be taking fire from fighters and point defense guns. Which are able to damage things like other fighters and shielded torpedoes, which are certainly much more durable than a pit fiend or two.

Assuming, of course, that you can make a whole ship out of adamantium. Wich I somewhat doubt, with it being a rare metal and everything. I believe I remember something about they being made mostly of reinforced steel.
Their armor is Adamantium. I don't know how thick it is exactly, but in Rogue Trader one possible addition to your ship is an armored prow, which adds thirty metres of solid Adamantium to the front of your ship. I can't say for sure about the thickness of normal armor elsewhere, but it isn't a stretch at all to guess 15 metres of armor. And that's just for Cruisers (the best ship available in Rogue Trader), which are the most common Imperial Naval vessels. There's plenty of ships that are (much) bigger and tougher-- Grand Cruisers, Ironclads, Battleships, Battlecruisers, Space Marine Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges.

Finaly, in Chaos Demons codex there's the short story on how a lonely soul grinder punches trough a battle barge's walls and proceeds to slaughter the space marines inside. There's no mention of static defences/turrets. Space wolves codex has the story on how a few terminators jump from their dying ship, punch their way trough the enemy chaos ship's hull and proceed to conquer it. In both cases, a relatively low number of troops wrecks havoc in a space ship just by geting close enough to the hull. It's not even a new tactic in WH40K. The devils just have the tools to do it better.
You can't use the codexes for a tabletop game simulating ground combat as a source for space combat. As per the Rogue Trader rules, a game which actually, you know, has space combat in it, every ship has a turret rating which represents point defenses. The turret rating modifies tests to shoot down incoming enemy ordinance and repel people attempting to board. And devils are not going to fare well against ship-based point defenses. Not at all.

hamishspence

2010-02-18, 10:31 AM

Battlefleet Gothic is more space-combat devoted than Rogue Trader, but isn't really designed to account for the personal capabilities of characters.

There is Abaddon's "You have failed me for the last time" rule though.

Callos_DeTerran

2010-02-18, 10:33 AM

I have no reason to assume they are the same material, though.

I mean, they use it (among other materials) in Terminator Armor, which is...really really hard to damage.

It just seems silly to me to assume that a material that doesn't share the same name (which is kind of important with metallurgy) shares the exact same properties. Especially since doing so trivializes the compound in favor of the other side.

Actually, from my understanding of Terminator Armor and how object hardness goes, it's not an unfair comparision. An inch of adamintine is rather hard to get through, as in you don't even need to worry about it getting damaged in the normal course of D&D adventuring. How thick is Terminator Armor? How thick is adamintine armor/or adamintine-reinforced space ship armor? And the fact a horned devil could cut through it does not make it weak considering a horned devil is....what? CR15+ I think it's 17, but I'm not sure, and before the release of any supplemental books was the second strongest type of devil after pit fiend.

You can't use the codexes for a tabletop game simulating ground combat as a source for space combat. As per the Rogue Trader rules, a game which actually, you know, has space combat in it, every ship has a turret rating which represents point defenses. The turret rating modifies tests to shoot down incoming enemy ordinance and repel people attempting to board. And devils are not going to fare well against ship-based point defenses. Not at all.

Actually, a question about that. What are point defenses composed of and standard Imperium fighter weaponry?

Krrth

2010-02-18, 10:41 AM

A couple of things to keep in mind:

Those ships the devils are invading? Cruisers have crews of over 20,000.

An invasion of this magnitude would have been noticed by the Imperial Diviners. Seriously, they're there for that reason: To notice when really, really bad stuff is about to happen.

Wishes: Using these is iffy. Remember, in 40k the more something is believed in the more if becomes true. ALL the weapons, ships, gear, and so forth are blessed on a regular basis. I'm not sure what effect that will have, but it's there.

40k DOES have healing of others. In fact, a rating 1 psyker can heal others using a minor talent.

edit: Point defense weaponry on ships can consist of anything from laser turrets to autocannon. It's condensed into "turret" for ease of use.

Fighters vary greatly based on general role.

edit 2:Link (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Aircraft) to the most common types of Imperial Aircraft.

Callos_DeTerran

2010-02-18, 10:48 AM

Oslecamo

2010-02-18, 11:00 AM

D&D Adamantine does not equal 40k Adamantium, as has already been pointed out. Imperial warships fire weapons with yields measured in the kilotons, and their armor enables them to resist attacks on the same order of magnitude. The thickness of their armor is measured in metres. You don't just waltz up and cut your way in.
Actualy, the D&D adamantium HP rules are for inch of tickness.

So if have meters, we need to multiply for around 39, and that gives a whooping 1560 HP per meter of tickness. The tarrasque has 858 HP. Sounds pretty tough to me.

Anyway, terminators can cut their way in with chainfists, so that sugests that warships have weaker points, probably near weapon openings/hatches wich aren't as tick as the main hull, yet are very hard to target by other ship's heavy weaponry due to their small size.

And the whole time you're going to be taking fire from fighters and point defense guns. Which are able to damage things like other fighters and shielded torpedoes, which are certainly much more durable than a pit fiend or two.

Even whitout his fire immunity, a pit fiend could happily swim in lava. It's a common fact discussed in the roleplaying forums that high level monsterscharacters in D&D are insanely resistant for flesh beings.

Their armor is Adamantium. I don't know how thick it is exactly, but in Rogue Trader one possible addition to your ship is an armored prow, which adds thirty metres of solid Adamantium to the front of your ship. I can't say for sure about the thickness of normal armor elsewhere, but it isn't a stretch at all to guess 15 metres of armor. And that's just for Cruisers (the best ship available in Rogue Trader), which are the most common Imperial Naval vessels. There's plenty of ships that are (much) bigger and tougher-- Grand Cruisers, Ironclads, Battleships, Battlecruisers, Space Marine Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges.

Funny thing, the soul grinder story goes on exactly on a battle barge. If he can bust it's walls alone, I don't see why magic backed up devils can't do so either.

You can't use the codexes for a tabletop game simulating ground combat as a source for space combat. As per the Rogue Trader rules, a game which actually, you know, has space combat in it, every ship has a turret rating which represents point defenses. The turret rating modifies tests to shoot down incoming enemy ordinance and repel people attempting to board. And devils are not going to fare well against ship-based point defenses. Not at all.

They were fluff story, not rules, so they are valid.

And I must ask you, are those turrets auto-win against any troops trying to board? Because if not, then ship hulls can be pierced and invaded by infantry.

Killer Angel

2010-02-18, 11:00 AM

Those ships the devils are invading? Cruisers have crews of over 20,000.

Wishes: Using these is iffy. Remember, in 40k the more something is believed in the more if becomes true. ALL the weapons, ships, gear, and so forth are blessed on a regular basis. I'm not sure what effect that will have, but it's there.

Devils don't go for the destrucion of the Ship or annihilation of the Crew (which, anyway, aren't 20.000 SM in Terminator armour... tecnician and crew are weak).
Take a squad of 10-20 pit fiend; some wishes can deactivate for a while the gellar field, even only a couple of rounds, they teleported in the area of the generators and start doing a lot of damage. They need only a few time, that can be buyed by summoned devils. This is a suicide squad, composed by advanced Pit Fiend. Once the generator is gone, the ship is very hampered (travels only at sublight speed). Crush the engines, and you'll have an immobile ship.
THe cost? 20 advanced Pit Fiend. 20 drops of Asmodeus' blood tomorrow morning.

I'm not saying SM are easy prey, but Hell has LOTS of devils, and they replace losses with a rate 100 times faster than Imperium.

BTW: the blessing. Yes, there is. I don't know how much protection can give when facing devils. They're not Daemons, they're not Chaos.
Same for blessed weapons. Do they count for bypassing devils' DR? You know, if we have DR/good, the blessing must be good-aligned. Imperial blessing is certainly lawful, but how much good is debatable.

Krrth

2010-02-18, 11:03 AM

Well I ask for the simple reason of, as d20 Future rules, laser fire equals fire damage which devils are immune to. I was going to say that if all Imperium point defenses were composed of lascannons and and such (it also means plasma weaponry, flamethrowers, and etc.) then in truth they'd do relatively little aside from the force of such blasts maybe pushing the devils back (Rules are unclear on such a thing). Good to know they aren't just using lascannons.

Course, as said, things work just as much by faith. The 'holy' fuel used for some flamethrowers (I'm sure I remember them being mentioned somewhere) would probably deal half divine damage in D&D terms.

Yeah, they call them "Flamers". The sisters of battle routinely use blessed promethium in them. Of course, they routinely used blessed everything, but it is available.

The common load-out for starfighters is (as best I can tell) lascannon and missiles. Craft intended for atmospheric use seems to have a mix of autocannon and lascannon, in addition to missiles.

The SM version is the Thunderhawk (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thunderhawk). It uses lascannon, heavy autocannon, missiles, heavy bolters, and the like.

KA: What you say is true, but...it's not quite that easy. The crew is armed, especially on a SM ship. Yes, all of them. Even some of the servitors. After one or two sucessful hit and runs, the SM's (well, most of the chapters) will adapt. 20 pit fiends 'port in? Sucks to be them when a librarian is standing there waiting.

Eldan

2010-02-18, 11:04 AM

Well, in the last edition, the Avatar of Khaine was fire immune, which manifested itself as immunity to melta, plasma and flamer weapons, but not lasers. It has been further downgraded since.

Renegade Paladin

2010-02-18, 11:04 AM

D&D Adamantine does not equal 40k Adamantium, as has already been pointed out. Imperial warships fire weapons with yields measured in the kilotons, and their armor enables them to resist attacks on the same order of magnitude.
Considerably more powerful than that, actually; kiloton-range weaponry would be incapable of Exterminatus.

Oslecamo

2010-02-18, 11:05 AM

Devils don't go for the destrucion of the Ship or annihilation of the Crew (which, anyway, aren't 20.000 SM in Terminator armour... tecnician and crew are weak).

This also. Altough it's true that Imperial ships have LOTS of crew, most of those crew are actualy slaves/servitors that are there to make up for the old/failing technology, not exactly battle hardened veterans armed to the teeth.

Renegade Paladin:No, exterminatus weapons like the warp torpedos are much more rare and expensive than the standard heavy ship weapons.

It's actualy a common trope in WH40K that you need space marines because heavy spaceship weaponry can't pierce planetary defenses by themselves, so you send the space marines to blow them up from inside.

Lamech

2010-02-18, 11:12 AM

Krrth

2010-02-18, 11:15 AM

I don't know much about WH40K but... does it have an astral plane? 'Cause teleport kind of needs that to function. And how many space marines are there? Will they survive concentrated fire from wish spells attempting to throw them into a sun? Because from anywhere to anywhere, regardless of local conditions makes them really hard to defend against.

Yes, it's called the Warp. It tends to eat things that travel there.

Also, wishing SM's (or anyone) into the sun is quite clearly outside the bounds of a Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm). Anything not on the list of "Acceptable" requests goes into GM Fiat territory

hamishspence

2010-02-18, 11:15 AM

The Warp has much in common with the Astral Plane, or the Astral Sea in 4E. The Chaos gods each have their own domain, between those, is no-mans land, where there are a lot of daemons.

that's how 40K teleportation works- you enter the warp, you come out at the required location (though may not land exactly in the right spot)

And you can't teleport through a ship's shields.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-18, 11:19 AM

Regarding material equivalency. I have two points to bring up.

The first is that even materials sharing the exact same name have different properties in different settings.

Specifically, mithril. In DnD, it's perhaps a touch tougher than steel, and lowers weight a category, lowers check penlaties a bit. Kind of expensive, but not absurdly so, and only good in some situations.

In Lord of the Rings, mithral is the uber-metal. It's super light and super tough. Or, as Bilbo put it: "light as a feather, and hard as dragon scales". Even taking the book adaptation, Frodo took a spear right in the gut from an Orc, and came away with a few bruises. This stuff is lighter than DnD mithril, but probably harder than DnD adamantine.

Second point: toughness of Space Marine Armor.

In The Traitor's Hand, CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM is facing off against a single Khornate Marine. Cain has on his side perhaps a dozen or so Imperial Guard, all with lasguns. All the IG are firing, and the Marine is taking essentially no damage. Now, these guns likely do at least twice the damage of modern assault rifles (most all descriptions describe more wound trauma associated, alongside burn trauma), yet were not penetrating. This was regular Marine Power Armor. It took a Melta shot (a weapon designed to fight tanks from that time period) to kill said Marine.
Now, that was regular Marine armor. Terminator armor is a few times tougher than that, and has almost no adamantium; said metal is mainly used for supporting the armor as a whole.
The ships are armored many, many times better. As has been stated, the armor has to withstand weaponry throwing out enormous amounts of force. It's not going to be easy to cut at all. Certainly not for devils with nothing but regular steel weapons and muscle power.

Oslecamo

2010-02-18, 11:22 AM

And you can't teleport through a ship's shields.

You can still punch trough it.

I've been re-checking the chaos codex, and there's the short story of the capture of a Space Wolves strike cruiser by The Wolf of Fenris.

Highlights:
-120 chaos marines used in the boarding total.
-Space Wolves didn't notice their intention untill it was too late, otherwise they would've self destructed to prevent capture.
-Hull and walls pierced by melta bombs.
-Some point defenses and servitors are mentioned, but they're overcome whiotut much trouble.
-Best of all, the chaos marines win the day when part of the Space Wolves decide it's best to live by yourself than to die by the emperor, and turn into their own brethern. The Wolf of Fenris didn't even need to use any trickery for this to happen. The Space Wolves went traitor out of their own desesperation.:smallamused:

This is a fluff only story. Feel free to share any other detailed boarding fluff story you may know in WH40K.

KnightDisciple:Hmm, medium-high level devils are more than enough strenght to easily breack steel with their own hands. And their flames are much much hotter than normal fire.

Also, I remember the fluff stating that lasguns are just as strong as modern rifles, not twice as strong.

Lamech

2010-02-18, 11:24 AM

Yes, it's called the Warp. It tends to eat things that travel there.

Also, wishing SM's (or anyone) into the sun is quite clearly outside the bounds of a Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm). Anything not on the list of "Acceptable" requests goes into GM Fiat territoryHmm... I suppose the devils can tele then.

And umm...:smallconfused: Sending people into the sun is in fact clearly inside the bounds of wish.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Is the sun anywhere? Is it on any plane? So umm... yeah wish can do exactly that.

Killer Angel

2010-02-18, 11:25 AM

This was regular Marine Power Armor. It took a Melta shot (a weapon designed to fight tanks from that time period) to kill said Marine.
Now, that was regular Marine armor. Terminator armor is a few times tougher than that, and has almost no adamantium; said metal is mainly used for supporting the armor as a whole.

and still, Terminator armor can be ripped apart by critters with hard claws

hamishspence

2010-02-18, 11:30 AM

Genestealers? Aren't they closer to having monomolecular-edged claws, being Tyranid close combat specialists?

(in 3rd ed, Black Book genestealers had claws which counted as power weapons)

They rip apart tanks as well, when slightly downgraded in their 3rd ed codex, to Rending Claws (a downgrade in trooper armour-piercing, but upgrade in tank armour-piercing).

Texas_Ben

2010-02-18, 11:30 AM

Considerably more powerful than that, actually; kiloton-range weaponry would be incapable of Exterminatus.
Well yeah, but I'm not sure how well a warship would stand up to Exterminatus-capable weaponry, but I know that they use kiloton-range ordinance as a matter of course.

I'm not so sure about Wish disabling gellar fields. That seems like exactly the sort of thing Gellar fields are supposed to protect against. They're basically a selective antimagic field.

How thick is adamintine armor/or adamintine-reinforced space ship armor?

As previously stated, adding an armored prow to a Cruiser adds thirty metres of armor to the prow section of said ship. So for a cruiser (the most common imperial ship), probably anywhere from 15 to 30 metres of armor on the rest of the ship.

Actually, a question about that. What are point defenses composed of and standard Imperium fighter weaponry?
Lascannons, Autocannons, Rail guns, and plasma turrets mostly. The more ancient and powerful warships have archeotech point defenses with hundreds of thousands of minaturized energy turrets integrated into the hull.

Actualy, the D&D adamantium HP rules are for inch of tickness.
And Adamantium and Adamantine are still two different materials.

Anyway, terminators can cut their way in with chainfists, so that sugests that warships have weaker points, probably near weapon openings/hatches wich aren't as tick as the main hull, yet are very hard to target by other ship's heavy weaponry due to their small size.
And which will also be better protected by point defenses for this very reason. And a chainfist is a much better weapon then pretty much anything devils have access to. It's designed to carve up tanks, and ignores armor completely. It's going to cut through bulkheads and hatches like they were nothing. A devil is going to have to spend quite a lot of time hacking at a hatch to get inside. All the while getting hammered by point defenses. And if they take too long, they get to succumb to the effects of vaccum.

And I must ask you, are those turrets auto-win against any troops trying to board? Because if not, then ship hulls can be pierced and invaded by infantry.
Troops trying to board are themselves aboard shuttles, lighters, and gun-cutters. These are heavily armed and armored, and equipped with the tools necessary to force entry upon contact with an enemy ship. Devils have none of these advantages.

hamishspence

2010-02-18, 11:34 AM

I suspect that an unarmoured body trying to pass through shields, would suffer trauma- whereas things that get inside shields (boarding torpedoes, assault boats, bombers, etc) do so because they have the armour to survive passing through the field.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-18, 11:34 AM

Also, I remember the fluff stating that lasguns are just as strong as modern rifles, not twice as strong.
Just as strong as 40k assault rifles, which fire .50 caliber rounds.

I suspect that an unarmoured body trying to pass through shields, would suffer trauma- whereas things that get inside shields (boarding torpedoes, assault boats, bombers, etc) do so because they have the armour to survive passing through the field.
Unarmored bodies passing through shields get vaporized (From one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels). Rogue Trader doesn't have rules for torpedoes and I am completely unfamiliar with Battlefleet Gothic, but I'm assuming they are treated like any other weapon in that a ship has a shield rating (most ships have one shield, cruisers have two, presumably battleships and the like have more). A ship's shields can absorb one weapons hit per round per point of shield rating, and all hits after that count against the ship itself. Each round the shields recharge. Anyways, I'm assuming that torpedoes just detonate against the shields like normal. Bombers would be used after the shields go down to hammer an enemy ship.

Krrth

2010-02-18, 11:49 AM

Just as strong as 40k assault rifles, which fire .50 caliber rounds.

Unarmored bodies passing through shields get vaporized (From one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels). Rogue Trader doesn't have rules for torpedoes and I am completely unfamiliar with Battlefleet Gothic, but I'm assuming they are treated like any other weapon in that a ship has a shield rating (most ships have one shield, cruisers have two, presumably battleships and the like have more). A ship's shields can absorb one weapons hit per round per point of shield rating, and all hits after that count against the ship itself. Each round the shields recharge. Anyways, I'm assuming that torpedoes just detonate against the shields like normal. Bombers would be used after the shields go down to hammer an enemy ship.

Slight correction (as per the rules in RT): Void shields absorb one hit per round, per rating of shield, per opponent. Recharge at the end of each round. So a one on one ship battle (at the cruiser level) will absorb two hits. Two on one will absorb 4 hits, and so on.

Killer Angel

2010-02-18, 11:50 AM

Genestealers? Aren't they closer to having monomolecular-edged claws, being Tyranid close combat specialists?
.

Yes.
D&D obviously don't describes devils' claws as "monomolecular-edged", but many of their natural weapons count as magic weapons and can hit even incorporeal enemies.
So I think that a physical comparison between Tyranids and Devils, can be made.

Oslecamo

2010-02-18, 11:52 AM

And Adamantium and Adamantine are still two different materials.

Adamantium=hardest metal available, immune to small caliber weaponry, pierceable by strong weaponry.
Adamantine=hardest metal available, immune to small caliber weaponry, pierceable by strong weaponry.

Hmm, where's the diference again? Land raiders are made of adamantium, and even they go down to rocket launchers.:smallconfused:

And which will also be better protected by point defenses for this very reason. And a chainfist is a much better weapon then pretty much anything devils have access to. It's designed to carve up tanks, and ignores armor completely. It's going to cut through bulkheads and hatches like they were nothing. A devil is going to have to spend quite a lot of time hacking at a hatch to get inside. All the while getting hammered by point defenses. And if they take too long, they get to succumb to the effects of vaccum.

And again I must ask you, don't you notice that medium-high level demons can easily overcome the hardness of materials thanks to power attack? Medium high level D&D stops being about high fantasy and more about crazy manga level where you're cuting tanks in half with normal swords. Yes, a fighter can do so, let alone a devil.

And heck, if you're bringing Rogue Trader, then I bring book of 9 Swords and it's Stone dragon discipline, wich allows Devils to pick up Martial study feat and ignore DR of materials completely. There's your hull breaching team.

Troops trying to board are themselves aboard shuttles, lighters, and gun-cutters. These are heavily armed and armored, and equipped with the tools necessary to force entry upon contact with an enemy ship. Devils have none of these advantages.
Nope. In the chaos story, the Wolf of Fenris only uses the boarding torpedos to get close enough to the ship(wich could be replicated by teleport, the shield only prevents from teleporting inside), and pierces the hull with melta bombs, wich are standard handheld weapons.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-18, 11:58 AM

Adamantium=hardest metal available, immune to small caliber weaponry, pierceable by strong weaponry.
Adamantine=hardest metal available, immune to small caliber weaponry, pierceable by strong weaponry.

Hmm, where's the diference again? Land raiders are made of adamantium, and even they go down to rocket launchers.:smallconfused:

Because one has explicitly defined properties, down to the exact hardness and HP, and the other doesn't, like at all?:smallconfused:

Like I said, comparing two versions of mithril yields notably different results. I don't see why adamantium has to have the exact same stats, instead of being 2, 3, or more times tougher.

And when you say "rocket launcher", I'd like the specific name of the launcher, how many hits, what type of rockets, etc. Because that's an incredibly vague term, really. Even in the context of solely modern day, real world weaponry.

Oslecamo

2010-02-18, 12:10 PM

Because one has explicitly defined properties, down to the exact hardness and HP, and the other doesn't, like at all?:smallconfused:

Like I said, comparing two versions of mithril yields notably different results. I don't see why adamantium has to have the exact same stats, instead of being 2, 3, or more times tougher.

Perhaps precisely because you don't have stats or any scale for WH40K adamantium? We know that LOTR mythril is "hard as dragon scales". But WH40K adamantium is hard as what exactly?

And like I pointed out, Stone Dragon maneuvers allow to completely bypass DR of materials, and devils can easily learn them.

And when you say "rocket launcher", I'd like the specific name of the launcher, how many hits, what type of rockets, etc. Because that's an incredibly vague term, really. Even in the context of solely modern day, real world weaponry.
The land rainder in question was under heavy autocannon fire, and some krak missiles. Specific numbers are not mentioned.

Texas_Ben

2010-02-18, 12:16 PM

And again I must ask you, don't you notice that medium-high level demons can easily overcome the hardness of materials thanks to power attack? Medium high level D&D stops being about high fantasy and more about crazy manga level where you're cuting tanks in half with normal swords. Yes, a fighter can do so, let alone a devil.
Even using your own numbers (which we aren't, just for the sake of argument), You're going to need to do several hundred points of damage to get through one inch of armor. And even if they can find a hatch or other weak point and attempt to gain access, there's still going to be several feet of the stuff to get through. While under fire from point defenses. Oh yeah and they're still in a vacuum. It's going to take awhile to cut through, and they aren't going to live long enough to do so.

And heck, if you're bringing Rogue Trader, then I bring book of 9 Swords and it's Stone dragon discipline, wich allows Devils to pick up Martial study feat and ignore DR of materials completely. There's your hull breaching team.

Rogue Trader, as in the basic rulebook for the game Rogue Trader. It isn't some obscure sourcebook. It's a basic rulebook. It has rules for ships and ship-based combat. I don't know what you're on about.

Nope. In the chaos story, the Wolf of Fenris only uses the boarding torpedos to get close enough to the ship(wich could be replicated by teleport, the shield only prevents from teleporting inside), and pierces the hull with melta bombs, wich are standard handheld weapons.
Melta Bombs are specialized cutting/breaching tools and are hardly comparable to some dude with a pointy pit of metal. And what's that? Boarding torpedoes? Sounds like specialized boarding gear to me.

The land rainder in question was under heavy autocannon fire, and some krak missiles. Specific numbers are not mentioned.
That's nice. Do you have any evidence that Devils have anything like as powerful as autocannons? Or anti-tank missiles? No? Then I don't see how that has any bearing on the discussion at hand.

Killer Angel

2010-02-18, 12:18 PM

Texas_Ben

2010-02-18, 12:22 PM

Regarding materials and ability do damage 'em.
Obviously you won't find anything in srd that will tell "magic can pierce the plates of WH40K tanks". So we must made some assumption.
Genestealers have "quasi-monomolecular" edged claws. Devils' claws are almost always considered magical weapons. Can they be considered equals?
If the answer is yes, than Devils can rip adamantium.
The issue isn't whether they can penetrate, the issue is how long will it take them to dig inside. Because while they're cutting at the hull, they're being shot at by fighters and defense turrets, and exposed to hard vacuum.

Killer Angel

2010-02-18, 12:22 PM

Rogue Trader, as in the basic rulebook for the game Rogue Trader. It isn't some obscure sourcebook. It's a basic rulebook. It has rules for ships and ship-based combat. I don't know what you're on about.

ToB isn't exactly some "obscure rulebook".
And when we must confront with the fluff contained in ALL the published novels regarding SM and Imperial guards, treated as truth, than yes, ToB is a valid source.

The issue isn't whether they can penetrate, the issue is how long will it take them to dig inside. Because while they're cutting at the hull, they're being shot at by fighters and defense turrets, and exposed to hard vacuum.

Ah, OK; I'm fine with this. Anyway, my tactic for attacking a ship, wasn't counting on swarming assault, but a Pit Fiends teleporting squad. :smallwink:

Oslecamo

2010-02-18, 12:24 PM

Even using your own numbers (which we aren't, just for the sake of argument), You're going to need to do several hundred points of damage to get through one inch of armor. And even if they can find a hatch or other weak point and attempt to gain access, there's still going to be several feet of the stuff to get through. While under fire from point defenses. Oh yeah and they're still in a vacuum. It's going to take awhile to cut through, and they aren't going to live long enough to do so.

Shock trooper feat chain allows for said hundreds of damage in a single turn. Point defenses can be confused with magic to provide cover for the time needed. A solid fog stops all nonmagical ranged attacks cold for example. A wall of force blocks everything. Some spells make you just unkillable by damage for a short time.

Rogue Trader, as in the basic rulebook for the game Rogue Trader. It isn't some obscure sourcebook. It's a basic rulebook. It has rules for ships and ship-based combat. I don't know what you're on about.

Book of 9 swords is actualy one of the most well known D&D splatbooks and many people defend it should be core. Acording to a poll done in these very forums, it's actualy the most popular oficial 3.5 splatbook.

Melta Bombs are specialized cutting/breaching tools and are hardly comparable to some dude with a pointy pit of metal.

So devils are now "some dudes"?

And what's that? Boarding torpedoes? Sounds like specialized boarding gear to me.

Yes, but they're just small craft in order to avoid detection as long as possible and quickly get close to the enemy ship before they can self destruct. It keeps it's size to the minimum needed for the engines and the assault crew.