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View Full Version : So You Want to Punch Out Cthulhu



Amiel
2010-02-13, 01:00 AM
The/An immense Cosmic Horror/Abhorrent One has pierced the veil between worlds and wishes to feed upon the souls, the brains, the bodies of the huddled pathetic masses below. Its very presence ravages flesh, liquefying it into thick chunks of vomit, and warps the mind, leaving gibbering, drooling husks.

A multitude of parasites descends thickly as it shakes its prodigious bulk. Every action dislodging a seemingly infinite number, each powerful in their own right, a host of locusts desiring to rend everything to carrion, and a virulent acidic rain that burns craters and holes in buildings and flesh.

What can be done?

Sir Homeslice
2010-02-13, 01:02 AM
Throw a bunch of Solar Exalted at it.

Lysander
2010-02-13, 01:10 AM
Plane Shift. Yourself, that is.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-13, 01:10 AM
No match for a core-only wizard. :smallamused:

Gamgee
2010-02-13, 01:14 AM
I get some MOTHER ****ING BEEDRILL ON HIS ASS!!!! (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/526826)

The Demented One
2010-02-13, 01:37 AM
Throw a bunch of Solar Exalted at it.
If you need more than five Solar Exalts to kill any one thing, something has gone horribly wrong.

tribble
2010-02-13, 01:39 AM
If you need more than five Solar Exalts to kill any one thing, something has gone horribly wrong.

If you need one of any kind of exalt the situation ain't peaches and cream.:smallwink:

Kyeudo
2010-02-13, 01:41 AM
If you need more than five Solar Exalts to kill any one thing, something has gone horribly wrong.

He did mention an infinite number of cosmic parasites in addition to Cthulu. We might want to throw the Solar's Lunar mates into the fight as well, if only to keep the distractions away from the real fight.

chiasaur11
2010-02-13, 01:42 AM
Step 1: Rip.

Step 2: Tear.


Repeat as needed. If subject falls under size classification A-7 (Huge) consult subsection 47-J (Huge Guts).

Overshee
2010-02-13, 01:45 AM
If you need more than five Solar Exalts to kill any one thing, something has gone horribly wrong.

Didn't someone do a test of 5 Solars vs FAFL where the solars kinda epically lost?

The Demented One
2010-02-13, 02:13 AM
Didn't someone do a test of 5 Solars vs FAFL where the solars kinda epically lost?
That may well be! The fact that you're capable of losing is what makes the game fun. But, you're also capable of winning!

Tavar
2010-02-13, 02:30 AM
Does FAFL have a printed statblock, though? I though the biggest enemy printed as of yet was the Mask of Winters.

Also, as TTGL would probably do a good job.

Agrippa
2010-02-13, 02:30 AM
Send in Murlynd (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Murlynd), Heward (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Heward), Zagyg (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zagyg), Celestian (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Celestian), Phaulkon (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Phaulkon), Keoghtom (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keoghtom) and Mordenkainen (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mordenkainen). Who knows, they just might win.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-13, 02:48 AM
Send in Murlynd (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Murlynd), Heward (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Heward), Zagyg (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zagyg), Celestian (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Celestian), Phaulkon (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Phaulkon), Keoghtom (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keoghtom) and Mordenkainen (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mordenkainen). Who knows, they just might win.

nah, those guys are way sub-optimal.

Failing Pun-Pun, there's several ways to accomplish this:

Cindy could manage it, I'm sure, although she may have to open up a Titan Chain to do it

Any wizard build incorporating Incantatrix and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil would also likely be up to the task, as the Violet Veil is sufficent to protect said wizard for the two rounds necessary to obliterate everything.

A properly built Hellfire Glaivelock might do it, although it would likely have to resort to Eldritch Cone for dealing with the swarms before going in for the kill. The only reason why it would have to be a Hellfire Glaivelock is Hellfire Blast bypasses all elemental immunities. Supernatural Transformation makes it a (Su) ability rather than (Sp) and thus no longer subject to SR. This bypasses any defenses the Thing might have, and thus actually do enough damage to it to destroy it.

A properly optimized Hulking Hurler could toss a moon at it and kill it

A properly optimized UberCharger could manage it, assuming he had sufficent abjurations to protect himself from the warping effects of the aura long enough to get his one round off

A properly cheesy Candle of Invocation use might be able to Balor Bomb it.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-13, 03:17 AM
Hope that I die first.

chiasaur11
2010-02-13, 03:22 AM
Hope that I die first.

Haven't you read Howard?

Death doesn't end your problems.

Satyr
2010-02-13, 03:22 AM
Just drop a boat on it.
Has worked for Cthulhu, so it's a proven technique.

I think that the Exalted are a particular bad idea - nobody is resistant against the basic terror of the Elder Ones - namely that the universe just doesn't care and that you are utterly and completely unimportant no matter what you ever do or achieve (I know, it's a bit like strating the obvious). Now the more those who face the Elder One are convinced from the opposite, the harder they fall.
And I really don't want to know what a bunch of mind-crushed, depressive solars would do.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-13, 03:23 AM
Any of the tier 1 and 2 classes could do so. I know I could do it with a psion/metamind, or just a straight psion.

I could probably kill it with a level 7 wizard or so.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-13, 03:24 AM
Haven't you read Howard?

Death doesn't end your problems.
Sometimes it does.

This is a cold and amoral universe with no afterlife after all.

Gamgee
2010-02-13, 03:35 AM
Just drop a boat on it.
Has worked for Cthulhu, so it's a proven technique.

I think that the Exalted are a particular bad idea - nobody is resistant against the basic terror of the Elder Ones - namely that the universe just doesn't care and that you are utterly and completely unimportant no matter what you ever do or achieve (I know, it's a bit like strating the obvious). Now the more those who face the Elder One are convinced from the opposite, the harder they fall.
And I really don't want to know what a bunch of mind-crushed, depressive solars would do.

So hypothetically if I went in the opposite of that and was all happy and cheerful I mean nothing I am guessing they would explode in shock or something? It's clear these here elder gods are just bored of people all acting the same.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-13, 04:17 AM
I think that the Exalted are a particular bad idea - nobody is resistant against the basic terror of the Elder Ones - namely that the universe just doesn't care and that you are utterly and completely unimportant no matter what you ever do or achieve (I know, it's a bit like strating the obvious).I'm sorry, I just kicked off my mental perfect defense, completely blotting the concept of not being important to the universe from my mind; what was that? Plus, Valor 5; what is fear?

Dude, the Solars were made to take on creatures like that; take Cthulhu, make him the size of continental Asia, and give him seperate free-willed organs that you can meet and hold conversations with, and that's what the Exalted were designed to fight. If there are Solar Exalted to deal with this, then all the stuff that HPL wrote about with there being no gods, no destinies, no hope, et cetera, is invalid.

Oh, and then I use Heart-Compelling Method. Now the universe does care about me. :smallamused:


What can be done?Get a few Warstriders, while we're at it.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-13, 04:27 AM
Plane Shift + demiplane of Temporal Stasis.

Seffbasilisk
2010-02-13, 04:42 AM
Halfling Crusader. Win initiative. Wear gauntlets.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-13, 04:43 AM
I think that the Exalted are a particular bad idea - nobody is resistant against the basic terror of the Elder Ones - namely that the universe just doesn't care and that you are utterly and completely unimportant no matter what you ever do or achieve (I know, it's a bit like strating the obvious). Now the more those who face the Elder One are convinced from the opposite, the harder they fall.
And I really don't want to know what a bunch of mind-crushed, depressive solars would do.

See, your basic assumption is that Solars give a damn. Hint: They don't. To put it in terms someone who has never played Exalted could understand: The stronger and more invincible/undefeatable/super god-like you are, the more likely Solars are to defeat you. Solars can win on the basis of narrative power. The villain is invincible? Solars find or create an achilles heel. The villain is immortal? Solars find a way to kill it. They don't win because they're strong, even though they are ridiculously strong. A Solar wins because a Solar cannot lose.

Even if you successfully defeat one Solar the story will bring yet another Solar against you. Maybe next time the Solar will have buddies. Either way, Solars are sort of like great epic heroes ala King Arthur or Beowulf. They will win at any cost. They might be killed in the process, but the Rule of Cool makes their success inevitable.

In short: Yes. A Solar(or two, or three or you might even need five) will win.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-13, 04:56 AM
The villain is immortal? Solars find a way to kill it.Or, to put it in someone else's words: "Immortal just means a Solar hasn't tried to kill it yet."

Satyr
2010-02-13, 05:15 AM
This is pretty much a question of persepctive, which basic concept of the universe you assume - if you argue that the Exalted universe idea is the correct one, you are absolutely right, but then there are no cosmic horrors- just a bunch of extraplanar Godzillas - but that's not even close to what makes the Mythos so cruel.
If you assume that the Lovecraftian universe is the correct basic assumption, than the universe is a cold and careless place and his acknowledgement is too big for any mind to cope with it, and the more powerful and self-assured you are, the more terrible is this revelation. It doesn't matter that Cthulhu (that tentacle-mouthed pushover) can probably devour a city. He can, but that's one of the least interesting aspect of it. The true devastating aspect is, that Mythos completely undermines and destroys anything you have loveds, or believed in. That's why people go mad when they learn too much about the Myhos - not because of the acknowledgement that there are more powerful entities out there than your school wisdom can explain, but because they. don't. care. They don't have to. The whole universe only exists in the dreams of a blind idiot god.
it is unlikely that both concepts could coexist, so you probably have to pick one. That doesn't mean that some kind of a crossover campaign based on a compromise between both concepts wouldn't be awesome.

Cthulhu was defeated by a steamboat headbutt. His physical threat isn't that high, after all. Even in a purist Lovecraft universe, a dedicated military action can easily defeat most of the world's elder beings - take, for example the Innsmouth incident. If Cthulhu can't stand a blow to a head with a boat, just think what an artillery shell or torpedo would do (The answer is probaly Calamari, by the way).
With modern technology, you could probably drop an H-Bomb on R'lyeh and that was it. Good Bye, Mr. Cthulhu (at least for a longer time period; it is hinted that nothing ever stays dead- That is not dead which can eternal lie,/And with strange aeons even death may die).
The horror comes from the fact that it doesn't matter. Nothing you will ever do matters at all. And the pure existence of the Elder Ones proves this to you.

And Cthulhu? He is only a high priest of his race. He isn't the only one, but probably a very powerful one of the "Star Spawn" who in turn are so powerful that they himself are worshipped as gods by the Deep Ones. Now, when Cthulhu is ap priest, what gods does he worship?

Admiral Squish
2010-02-13, 05:21 AM
Punching out Cthulu is extremely relevant to my interests at the moment. Please, continue this discussion.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-13, 05:38 AM
Thing about the Mythos is that there's this basic assumption that knowing how insignificant you are makes you go mad.

This is kinda demonstrably not true, what with how tiny we now know we are.

Admiral Squish
2010-02-13, 05:43 AM
Thing about the Mythos is that there's this basic assumption that knowing how insignificant you are makes you go mad.

This is kinda demonstrably not true, what with how tiny we now know we are.

You KNOW you're tiny and insignificant, but you don't UNDERSTAND it. It's something you just can't grasp. You don't really know how big a million is, because you've never counted to it. You just generally know it's a big number. Same thing applies to a state. You've never really experienced just how big a state is. Same thing applies to the national, planetary, and cosmic scale.

OracleofWuffing
2010-02-13, 05:45 AM
I have been informed that Narwhals, being the jedi of the sea, are capable of stopping Cthulhu. I suggest lots and lots of Narwhals. Heck, let's roll up a Narwhal Solar for Exalted and see what happens.

Failing that, I will throw 4chan at it.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-13, 05:57 AM
You don't really know how big a million is, because you've never counted to it.Sez you. :smalltongue:

Admiral Squish
2010-02-13, 06:00 AM
Sez you. :smalltongue:

Okay, so you've PROBABLY never counted to it. :smalltongue:

Math people are all crazy anyways...

magic9mushroom
2010-02-13, 06:13 AM
You KNOW you're tiny and insignificant, but you don't UNDERSTAND it. It's something you just can't grasp. You don't really know how big a million is, because you've never counted to it. You just generally know it's a big number. Same thing applies to a state. You've never really experienced just how big a state is. Same thing applies to the national, planetary, and cosmic scale.

Don't assume others' minds are as puny as yours. :smalltongue:

Satyr
2010-02-13, 06:49 AM
Well, the whole Mythos is pretty much based on the writings of two authors in the 1930s. The more stable one of the two committed suicide. The other one was H.P. Lovecraft.

Yes, it is one of the problems of the Mythos that Lovecraft and his copycats assumed that all peope share his specific issues and quirks. Yes, this leads to the problem that modern people are a lot more jaded than Lovecraft and his contemporaries. And Lovecraft had some... unique ideas about psychology, and how the human mind works which were already dated by the time he wrote his tales.
However, that is the basic assumption of how Mythos works; it is the setting-intriisic logic of the "Yog Sototheries". You are insignificant, and the moment of this revelation, you do not only know it, you internalize it, and thus, your mind shatters. This is how the setting works, it is not more a mirror of reality than Exalted is. You can either accept the premise, or you don't.



Remember, Lovecraft thought that old buildings were scary. I live in a town with a school which was founded by Charlemagne, and most of the inner city was built more than two hundred years ago (at least those parts of the inner city that are still standing). By the logic of Lovecraft, this is a very eerie area, but you know, the lots of bars and merrily drunk students are kind of an indicator that it is not that scary after all. You cannot take him too seriously, after all.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-13, 07:12 AM
Remember, Lovecraft thought that old buildings were scary. I live in a town with a school which was founded by Charlemagne, and most of the inner city was built more than two hundred years ago (at least those parts of the inner city that are still standing). By the logic of Lovecraft, this is a very eerie area, but you know, the lots of bars and merrily drunk students are kind of an indicator that it is not that scary after all. You cannot take him too seriously, after all.

Old and sufficiently deserted buildings can be quite scary indeed, especially for kids. Far scarier, in general, than realising that you aren't the centre of the universe, or anywhere near it.

potatocubed
2010-02-13, 08:10 AM
Failing that, I will throw 4chan at it.

Ooh. Savage.

Satyr
2010-02-13, 08:14 AM
Yeah, and in a universe ruled by the Rule of Cool, people are occasionally raped to death by a giant undead albino gorilla on a motorcycle, because that certainly sounds cool to someone.
It's a part of the genre convention, and as such it must be regarded in context of its setting. In Lovecraft Universe, the uncarring universe is terrible to behold, and an old cowshed is creepy or outright vile. That doesn't mean that this is or is not a very realistc concept, or that it would make sense when you transfer it to the real world, but that is also true for almost every other fictional setting.

Besides, there is also another reason for why the mythos revelation is considered to be mind-shattering, but debating that one does not cope well with the forum's ban on religious debates.

Greenish
2010-02-13, 08:34 AM
I have been informed that Narwhals, being the jedi of the sea, are capable of stopping Cthulhu. I suggest lots and lots of Narwhals. Heck, let's roll up a Narwhal Solar for Exalted and see what happens.Curse you, Oracle, curse you! I had just had them narwhals out of my head!

The only thing left to do is to spread the misery!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykwqXuMPsoc

Bwahahaa!!!!!!

Starbuck_II
2010-02-13, 09:31 AM
Does that make the Ghostbusters Solar exalted? They beat him with lightning (lightning rod tower to focus it) + their busters.

Kyeudo
2010-02-13, 11:18 AM
Does that make the Ghostbusters Solar exalted? They beat him with lightning (lightning rod tower to focus it) + their busters.

Oh, heaven's no! Those guys were a bunch of heroic mortals with Essence weapons. They just stunted well and got lucky.

A Solar would have lept off the building, karate chopped the marshmellow man in half with a single blow, run back up the building, and drop kicked Gozor the Gozarian into the next universe.

See, elder gods were what the Exalted were created to fight. They have Charms to defeat even the mightiest of attacks, Charms that perfectly shield their minds against outside influence, and Charms that can kill anything that can be killed. If it can't be killed, a Solar just hasn't tried hard enough yet.

Whatever the biggest elder god in the Cthulu Mythos is, he doesn't stand a chance against a Circle of Solars.

BardicDuelist
2010-02-13, 11:22 AM
Summon Hellboy. He does this stuff on a regular basis. Oh, and tell him Cthulhu said he's going to bring about the end of the world. That always gets him going.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-02-13, 11:23 AM
Nonsense, Cthulhu doesn't want to end the world. He just wants to enslave most of humanity and sacrifice the rest. Most humans will get to live on as Deep Ones.

OverdrivePrime
2010-02-13, 11:46 AM
If nothing else works, I call in Squirrel Girl (http://marvel.com/universe/Squirrel_Girl) for help! Anyone who relies on squirrel-powers to beat Thanos, Dr. Doom, and motherlovin' Deadpoo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrel_Girl#Victories)l can probably mop the floor anything as all-powerful as Cthulhu.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-13, 12:14 PM
Can it withstand OVER 9000 damage? I choose you God of Smack/Ubercharger/Hulking Hurler!

Pepz
2010-02-13, 12:22 PM
It's a part of the genre convention, and as such it must be regarded in context of its setting. In Lovecraft Universe, the uncarring universe is terrible to behold, and an old cowshed is creepy or outright vile. That doesn't mean that this is or is not a very realistc concept, or that it would make sense when you transfer it to the real world, but that is also true for almost every other fictional setting.


I hardly think that Lovecraft was scared of "old buildings" or vile cowsheds. What happened inside was always the factor. Horror of Redhook takes place in churches and old mansions, but it's the people killing, undead creating, daemonic cult that's supposed to be scary. Rats in the walls? It's an old house, but the curse brought upon the main character because of the sins of his ancestors is what finally strikes fear into the characters and the reader.

It's true that modern day readers are jaded. What was scary then, seems less scary now. Lovecraft talked about the dangers of technology advancing too quickly. These days technology is all around us, we have a feeling we understand most of what is going on, so it's not as scary. His stories often say "curiosity killed the cat", "some things are better left alone" and "beware of the unknown".

On another note, you tell us in an earlier post that Lovecraft co-created the cthulhu mythos with another author. Would you mind sharing the name of that author?

Starbuck_II
2010-02-13, 12:28 PM
Whatever the biggest elder god in the Cthulu Mythos is, he doesn't stand a chance against a Circle of Solars.

Is the biggest god the force of life itself? Killing him sounds bad.
The blind idiot god of creation?

Satyr
2010-02-13, 12:32 PM
And again, Cthulhu is a pushover and so far distanced from the true powers that he worships them. As a priest.
Do not confuse that comparable primitive creature, who still exists in a mostly physical form with the true powers. Cthulhu is only a billion years or so old. Azatoth and the outer gods are older than the universe itself (which exists only in the dreams of "that blind idiot god in the centre of the atomic chaos"). It is hinted that speaking the name of Azatoth alone could wipe out the whole solar system, because that would get its attention. Obvoiusly, he is blind, not deaf.

Learning too much about the Mythos leaves only two ways out: Become raging mad and commit suicide to forget what you have learned, or become raging mad and begin to worship them. There are virtualy no other ways to solve this.

And someone mentioned that the Exalted Universe is ruled by cool.If this is true, what kind of a chance does stand anyone of those agianst Cthulhu? I mean seriously? An exalted character? Cool? If there is any game that screams "I don't like my life and I need to be something special in my free time to cope with the fact that my life is mediocre, so I replay omnipotence fantasies", it's Exalted. That's not cool, that is a depressing mixture of embarassment and pity.
Cthulhu on the other hand has built a legend and some kind of a lore for eighty years by no, despite the fact that the creator was a hack with little talent for writing.

I got totally ninja'd on this one, so:


I hardly think that Lovecraft was scared of "old buildings" or vile cowsheds. What happened inside was always the factor. Horror of Redhook takes place in churches and old mansions, but it's the people killing, undead creating, daemonic cult that's supposed to be scary. Rats in the walls? It's an old house, but the curse brought upon the main character because of the sins of his ancestors is what finally strikes fear into the characters and the reader.

Unfortunately i can't find the quote in English, but there is one quote of him that compares different scarry settings and which ends with the solution that there is nothing scarrier than the old houses in New England. Ithink that it is the introductin to one story where the narrator on a hike meets a friendly cannibal. But, yes, according to Lovecraft, old buildings are scary. Especially when they are unusual in any way.


It's true that modern day readers are jaded. What was scary then, seems less scary now. Lovecraft talked about the dangers of technology advancing too quickly. These days technology is all around us, we have a feeling we understand most of what is going on, so it's not as scary. His stories often say "curiosity killed the cat", "some things are better left alone" and "beware of the unknown".

But that makes the story even less scarry nowadays. Besides, some of his stories also have such brilliant morals as "miscenegation creates bloodthirsty fish monsters" and "Distrust all noncomformists and foreigners, because they are evil" and not to forget "If they are not white, they are inferior" or "The swastika will protect you against evil powers".
Seriously, Lovecraft makes a lot more fun to read if you completely ignore anything he intended with his tales.


On another note, you tell us in an earlier post that Lovecraft co-created the cthulhu mythos with another author. Would you mind sharing the name of that author?

That's actually wrong, there were a few more writers than just the two, with a high degree of intertextuality. The classic cycle includes Lovecraft (as the most important author, Robert E. Howard (fun fact: any Conan story whatsoever is a part of the Mythos. These two settings are permanently linked, and some of the creatures were coproductions between Howard and Lovecraft), Robert Bloch, Clark Ashton Smith and August Derleth (who only really started it after Lovecraft's death ad who changed the original cope significantly from an amoral universe to the conflict between good and evil. He just didn't get the point.)

Overshee
2010-02-13, 12:40 PM
And again, Cthulhu is a pushover and so far distanced from the true powers that he worships them. As a priest.
Do not confuse that comparable primitive creature, who still exists in a mostly physical form with the true powers. Cthulhu is only a billion years or so old. Azatoth and the outer gods are older than the universe itself (which exists only in the dreams of "that blind idiot god in the centre of the atomic chaos"). It is hinted that speaking the name of Azatoth alone could wipe out the whole solar system, because that would get its attention. Obvoiusly, he is blind, not deaf.

Learning too much about the Mythos leaves only two ways out: Become raging mad and commit suicide to forget what you have learned, or become raging mad and begin to worship them. There are virtualy no other ways to solve this.

And someone mentioned that the Exalted Universe is ruled by cool.If this is true, what kind of a chance does stand anyone of those agianst Cthulhu? I mean seriously?

Perfect mental defenses. They don't care how horrible Mythos is. They're cooler than that.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-13, 12:53 PM
Perfect mental defenses. They don't care how horrible Mythos is. They're cooler than that.

Realising this would, of course, shatter the Old Ones minds and drive them insane. :smallcool:

Flickerdart
2010-02-13, 01:12 PM
Realising this would, of course, shatter the Old Ones minds and drive them insane. :smallcool:
They're already insane, though.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-13, 01:13 PM
They're already insane, though.

Are they? Or are their mental faculties so much different from ours that they appear insane to us, just like we must appear insane to them?

Flickerdart
2010-02-13, 01:13 PM
Is there an appreciable difference?

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-13, 01:14 PM
Is there an appreciable difference?

To us? No. To Exalts? Probably.

chiasaur11
2010-02-13, 01:41 PM
Nonsense, Cthulhu doesn't want to end the world. He just wants to enslave most of humanity and sacrifice the rest. Most humans will get to live on as Deep Ones.

Fortunately, that also really pisses Hellboy off.

As for the insignificance thing?

Throw Zaphod Beeblebrox at them. He survived the total prospective vortex, after all.

nyarlathotep
2010-02-13, 01:47 PM
Something of note real quick there isn't anything inherent about the Mythos that says there can't be Exalteds. As there is nothing saying that Elder Gods can't care about humans, just that none of the ones encountered so far do. After all humans can care about bugs and thus if an Elder God wanted to it could impart humans with the power to destroy its fellows. Hell it would be a lot like an Elder God version of PETA or ALF.

That being said Hellboy would do fine too.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-13, 01:48 PM
Throw Zaphod Beeblebrox at them. He survived the total prospective vortex, after all....in a self-contained "universe" that really was all about him.

chiasaur11
2010-02-13, 01:57 PM
...in a self-contained "universe" that really was all about him.

Granted.

But it was a perfect simulation, and there's no proof, aside from a statement by one fellow, that the regular TPV would affect him differently.

And we can be sure either way that almost nothing short of the vortex could even begin to dent his ego. That'd be pretty fun to watch, actually.

Pepz
2010-02-13, 01:59 PM
Ithink that it is the introductin to one story where the narrator on a hike meets a friendly cannibal. But, yes, according to Lovecraft, old buildings are scary. Especially when they are unusual in any way.



I can believe Lovecraft came to that conclusion. He wrote a lot of papers and spent a lot of time thinking about scary stories. They might have something to do with his nightmares as well. HP had nightmares just about every night, and they were the main inspiration for The Elder Ones and any other supernatural occurence in his stories. And what's scarier that to see those unnameable, eldritch monstrosities in your own New England home?




But that makes the story even less scarry nowadays. Besides, some of his stories also have such brilliant morals as "miscenegation creates bloodthirsty fish monsters" and "Distrust all noncomformists and foreigners, because they are evil" and not to forget "If they are not white, they are inferior" or "The swastika will protect you against evil powers".
Seriously, Lovecraft makes a lot more fun to read if you completely ignore anything he intended with his tales.



Once again, I agree with you, although you did carry it a bit too far. Lovecraft was a true blue racist, even more than was usual even around 1900. The Swastika, though, is a bit too much. Because of the meaning we give it today. Actually in the last part of his life, he came to see the errors of his way....sort of. If you read his later stories (mainly Mountains of Madness comes to mind), you'll find that there's a lot less racist remarks.

But yeah, his stories are funnier when you know that and keep it in mind.



That's actually wrong, there were a few more writers than just the two, with a high degree of intertextuality. The classic cycle includes Lovecraft (as the most important author, Robert E. Howard (fun fact: any Conan story whatsoever is a part of the Mythos. These two settings are permanently linked, and some of the creatures were coproductions between Howard and Lovecraft), Robert Bloch, Clark Ashton Smith and August Derleth (who only really started it after Lovecraft's death ad who changed the original cope significantly from an amoral universe to the conflict between good and evil. He just didn't get the point.)

Lovecraft actively cheered on anyone who wanted to make mention of the Elder Ones or the Necronomicon, just so it would have more meaning if an unknowing reader came across it.

The main reason I asked for the writer who suicided was because that was the reason for me to become interested in Lovecraft and consorts. It was quite a letdown for me when I found out that he didn't die of madness or suicide, but just disease.

AND ON-TOPIC! :smalltongue::smallwink:

I obviously agree with Satyr that a steamboat would easily take down Cthulhu, even if it's only temporary. Otherwise I'd just throw Yog-Sothoth or any of the Starheaded creatures in the ring. Millions of years in stasis in the arctic, capable of traversing space and resilient to basically anything?

Our little priest doesn't stand a chance!

Deliverance
2010-02-13, 02:06 PM
Teach it to play Monopoly.

Depending on just how bad its aura of unadulterated eldritch horror is, this may require chain-catapulting gnomes capable of reciting the monopoly rules at it until it has learned enough of the rules to start playing. Being a creature of utter insanity, it will continue playing solitaire Monopoly forever and can safely be locked away in a can.

Some would say this is too cruel a fate to subject anyone to, and I have to agree in principle, but honestly, what do I care about the fate of big bad eldritch horrors?

Iceforge
2010-02-13, 02:14 PM
In Soviet Russia, Cthulhu wants to punch YOU out

Grey Paladin
2010-02-13, 02:20 PM
Just drop a boat on it.
Has worked for Cthulhu, so it's a proven technique.

I think that the Exalted are a particular bad idea - nobody is resistant against the basic terror of the Elder Ones - namely that the universe just doesn't care and that you are utterly and completely unimportant no matter what you ever do or achieve (I know, it's a bit like strating the obvious). Now the more those who face the Elder One are convinced from the opposite, the harder they fall.
And I really don't want to know what a bunch of mind-crushed, depressive solars would do.

Eh, Creation already has Sidereals and their infinite potential for I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream situations. While Solars can't beat Sidereals (despite what the game might hint at) they exist and hero it up just fine when it comes to the rest of their GRIMDARK universe.

Kyeudo
2010-02-13, 02:40 PM
What do you mean Solars can't beat Sidereals? To beat the Solars, the Sidereals had to marshal huge armies of Dragon-Blooded to bury the Solars with numbers. Both sides deployed the Exalted version of nukes trying to kill each other. The Sidereals only won because they managed to catch most of the Solars off guard for their initial assault.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-13, 02:53 PM
Actually, the Solars would probably win by driving the Elder Gods sane, and making them give a damn about creation. Then you no longer have a universe created by a blind idiot god, and the reason for the horror of the Mythos is undone.

When solving a problem, don't attack the symptoms, attack the cause.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-13, 02:54 PM
Actually, the Solars would probably win by driving the Elder Gods sane, and making them give a damn about creation. Then you no longer have a universe created by a blind idiot god, and the reason for the horror of the Mythos is undone.

When solving a problem, don't attack the symptoms, attack the cause.

They didn't do that the last time, why would they start now?

wadledo
2010-02-13, 02:56 PM
They didn't do that the last time, why would they start now?

Yea, I want my Elder God Skin couch, car seats, tent and bi-plane.

Sanguine
2010-02-13, 02:58 PM
They didn't do that the last time, why would they start now?

Because last time they weren't saving the World they were getting the Incarnae cushier jobs, making the world a better place was merely a happy side-effect.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-13, 03:04 PM
They didn't do that the last time, why would they start now?

Because Exalted are whiny emo teens with an ego the size of solar systems. When they realize the universe really doesn't care, they will promptly get very irate and force it to care.

Either that, or they Limit Break (which is not as cool as it is in Final Fantasy) and slit their wrists.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-13, 03:08 PM
Either that, or they Limit Break (which is not as cool as it is in Final Fantasy) and slit their wrists.

Not everyone has Heart of Tears as a Virtue Flaw, you know.

Tola
2010-02-13, 03:09 PM
Solars win because the universe makes them win?
They twist reality by their very prescence, the world does not withstand their coming, so they stay away most of the time? They tend to have servants who run around on this plane?

...Are they not, then, the same sort of thing as Cosmic Horrors?

Sanguine
2010-02-13, 03:10 PM
Solars win because the universe makes them win?
They twist reality by their very prescence, the world does not withstand their coming, so they stay away most of the time? They tend to have servants who run around on this plane?

...Are they not, then, the same sort of thing as Cosmic Horrors?

You know that sounds a lot more like Sidereals to me.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-13, 03:10 PM
No. Solars don't work that way. Sure, they twist reality, but they use Charms and high-end magitech and Sorcery to do that. And they used to have servants who used to run around the plane, until the said servants rebelled against them and...

Well, long story short, Solars don't work that way.

The Demented One
2010-02-13, 03:12 PM
...Are they not, then, the same sort of thing as Cosmic Horrors?
Major theme of Exalted.

Tola
2010-02-13, 03:16 PM
No. Solars don't work that way. Sure, they twist reality, but they use Charms and high-end magitech and Sorcery to do that. And they used to have servants who used to run around the plane, until the said servants rebelled against them and...

Well, long story short, Solars don't work that way.

I'm not seeing the difference. Explain. This one has nothing to go on.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-13, 03:18 PM
I'm not seeing the difference. Explain. This one has nothing to go on.

As the Solars grow in power, they also tend to grow cool, indifferent, and uncaring. The Solarian Empire was turned over because the Solars were abusing everything and basically not caring about anything other than themselves.

In other words, turning into Elder Gods.

Tavar
2010-02-13, 03:22 PM
Of course, part of this was because the Exalted were cursed by some of the Elder Gods that they killed, so it's not clear how much was due to their intrinsic nature, and how much due to the Great Curse.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-13, 03:23 PM
As the Solars grow in power, they also tend to grow cool, indifferent, and uncaring.

Not all. About 75 of them (those with Conviction flaws) do. The others act more in accordance to their primary Virtue. Those with Compassion, especially, care too much and go on rampages about how cruel the world is (or they just become too depressed that they can't help everything).

Actually, anyone with Celestial Monkey Style who wants to keep its Charms couldn't even reach such excesses. It was simply that, for propaganda purposes, Sidereals and Dragon-blooded way overstated the cruelty and apathy of the Solars.

randomhero00
2010-02-13, 03:29 PM
You KNOW you're tiny and insignificant, but you don't UNDERSTAND it. It's something you just can't grasp. You don't really know how big a million is, because you've never counted to it. You just generally know it's a big number. Same thing applies to a state. You've never really experienced just how big a state is. Same thing applies to the national, planetary, and cosmic scale.

I think that would be kind of freeing. Yay, absolute freedom. No more consequence, because nothing matters. That mean's cthulu can't touch me :) No one can, cause it won't matter if I'm destroyed. Nothing matters, therefore, I can apply my own meaning and become my own god within my own subverse. Muahahah.

Grey Paladin
2010-02-13, 04:49 PM
What do you mean Solars can't beat Sidereals? To beat the Solars, the Sidereals had to marshal huge armies of Dragon-Blooded to bury the Solars with numbers. Both sides deployed the Exalted version of nukes trying to kill each other. The Sidereals only won because they managed to catch most of the Solars off guard for their initial assault.

That's how the plot went, but mechanically the Sidereals - if not very young - rarely even have to come face-to-face with Solars to defeat them. Sidereals are the Batman of Creation, and while Solars may be Superman Sidereals have the kryptonite. The world as Solars know it is their doing, and outside of the Solar himself or other Exalts they can change every aspect of it.

I'd say it only makes sense as Sidereal games usually play on a somewhat larger scale - Solars are within the world and change it from there, while Sidereals are outside of it and keep it in existence (although they have to go inside themselves rather often).

EDIT: RoseDragon: Well, Humanity was created to be fearful, numereous, and die quickly and easily inside an actively hostile world so that their prayers could be used to fuel reality and keep it running - which itself was created so a bunch of Old Ones could chill and play their x-box forever without the Fair Folk interrupting them all the time.

I'd say those 'whiney' Solars have it right.

Volkov
2010-02-13, 05:31 PM
Summon Tzeentch and watch the Epic clash ensue. Assuming the resulting carnage doesn't kill you.

Grey Paladin
2010-02-13, 05:33 PM
Tzeentch would likely be buddy-buddy with them - he is the god of Change, and what would twist reality more than elder ones utterly alien to it?

Volkov
2010-02-13, 05:37 PM
Tzeentch would likely be buddy-buddy with them - he is the god of Change, and what would twist reality more than elder ones utterly alien to it?
The Chaos Gods hate competition. Upon entering the Cthulhu universe, the Chaos gods would almost immediately make war upon it.

Grey Paladin
2010-02-13, 05:40 PM
At least according to Fantasy, as long as the in-universe beings follow and act according to their essence (which for Tezeentch, is Change) the chaos gods are pleased as it makes them even greater than before and brings the world one step closer to their full control. Khorne&Pals might mind though.

Volkov
2010-02-13, 05:42 PM
At least according to Fantasy, as long as the in-universe beings follow and act according to their essence (which for Tezeentch, is Change) the chaos gods are pleased as it makes them even greater than before and brings the world one step closer to their full control. Khorne&Pals might mind though.

Khorne is violence for the sake of violence. He'll make war upon anything that lives, unlives, or otherwise. And the Emperor was a threat to them, thus they conspired against him to more or less destroy him.

The_Glen
2010-02-13, 05:49 PM
Build a bridge out of him!

Satyr
2010-02-13, 06:01 PM
I am pretty sure that I could easily handwave the chaos gods, as a few of the masks of Nyarlathtotep.

And when did this threat become a contest about whose setting has the biggest balls?
First of all, that is no achievement. Everybody can write up something extra terrible, extra bizarre or extra invincible. Then, all that does say nothing about the setting's quality -at least nothing positive (overkill is heavy-handed, a talented writer can create a plausible threat without having to fall back on megalomania). And finally, are you truly going to argue whose fictional setting is stronger? That's really a lot like arguing who has the best imagnary friend...

And if you really want this context, there is always Rhyn and Kwll.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-13, 06:06 PM
Could Toppa Tenga Gurran beat Cthulu?

Johel
2010-02-13, 06:06 PM
The Chaos Gods hate competition. Upon entering the Cthulhu universe, the Chaos gods would almost immediately make war upon it.

Nope, they wouldn't.
At least, not Tzeench.

You, Cthulhu, the summoning... Everything went just as planned. And the most beautiful thing is nobody but Tzeench will ever know what is the final goal of all this. For all we know, the God of Change could very well just wanted some dude to go do his grocery but, rather than simply ask, he went with this whole "millions of years-long scheme". Important part is : he got the groceries. You screaming forever without mouth as Cthulhu step over our reality is a happy consequence that won't last... because it's already planned as such.

chiasaur11
2010-02-13, 06:07 PM
Could Toppa Tenga Gurran beat Cthulu?

Probably.

I mean, it's bigger than Azathoth, for pete's sake. Crushing Cthulhu would probably happen without anyone noticing.

Flickerdart
2010-02-13, 06:35 PM
Kamina could probably beat Cthulhu with his bare hands, as could post-timeskip Simon. Adding in any of Gurren Lagann's iterations just makes it less fair.

Overshee
2010-02-13, 06:36 PM
Kamina could probably beat Cthulhu with his bare hands, as could post-timeskip Simon. Adding in any of Gurren Lagann's iterations just makes it less fair.

Nor to mention that Yoko could probably smother Cthulhu in her boobs.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-13, 06:50 PM
Is cthulu the creature that the anti-spirals warned about? I mean, maybe that will be the future sequel to the story.

randomhero00
2010-02-13, 06:53 PM
Tzeench and the chaos gods could go either way as far as making war or allying themselves. I've read a lot of WH and the jist that I've gotten is that...chaos is bat**** insane lol.

One chaos god (who the author didn't name) secretly professed his love for Order to a hero of Order after he had just thwarted the chaos god's plan (or did he?) He said something along the lines, "Order defines me, for what is chaos without order to battle?"

Chaos certainly plans to win eventually...but anything that speeds up their victory too much would spoil their fun IMO. So I actually think they'd go to war with Cthulhu et al, but for different reasons than was originally mentioned.

Drascin
2010-02-13, 07:05 PM
Could Toppa Tenga Gurran beat Cthulu?

Wouldn't even take half the episode, really. Cthulhu is, again, just a little priest. He's nothing, cosmically speaking. For a decent match to TTGL you have to go to the Big Leagues.

Azathoth versus TTGL is quite a match, though. On one side TTGL, powered by the essence of ordered evolution of the living creatures, the will to live, the will to continue and advance. On the other, Azathoth, the cold, uncaring, utterly random center and end of the universe.

A true match of opposites, it would indeed be.

Flickerdart
2010-02-13, 07:54 PM
Studio Gainax should look into this for a movie, instead of remaking the original again and again. I'd buy this twice.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-13, 08:10 PM
Cthulhu is a priest of unknowable, foul and utterly alien Gods, right?

Who do you think summoned Tzeentch into this world in the first place? :smallsmile:

Amiel
2010-02-13, 08:26 PM
Uh, it's not actually Cthulhu that is presented in this what-if hypothetical; the title was comparable because the Trope was relevant.

This is something that ravages flesh and mind at will, so victims become insensate chunks of bile at best, and reduces their sanities to such a minute singularity that they scream unceasingly for eternity, their mouths contorting into a rigor mortis position of extreme agony. I'm not sure if Cthulhu could do all that.

Other than that, it's all golden. It'd definitely be interesting, especially so, to see what the Blind, Idiot God could do.

chiasaur11
2010-02-13, 08:46 PM
Uh, it's not actually Cthulhu that is presented in this what-if hypothetical :smallredface: The title was comparable because the Trope was relevant.

This is something that ravages flesh and mind at will, so victims become insensate chunks of bile at best, and reduces their sanities to such a minute singularity that they scream unceasingly for eternity, their mouths contorting into a rigor mortis position of extreme agony. I'm not sure if Cthulhu could do all that.

Other than that, it's all golden. It'd definitely be interesting, especially so, to see what the Blind, Idiot God could do.

You really want to hurt this thing?

You want to make it whimper in agony as its mind is utterly broken, feed it its own medicine?

Have it try the mind whammy on His Grace Sir Samuel Vimes, Duke of Ankh Morpork and Commander of the City Watch.

It will be satisfying.

Amiel
2010-02-13, 08:49 PM
Because the thing would attempt to eat Vimes and then proceed to choke on his vile taste?

Nerocite
2010-02-13, 09:03 PM
I think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB1Wnbhlzrs) would do nicely.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-02-13, 09:15 PM
Hire Little Mac. Probably too late in the thread for a joke, but dammit I like this one!

Starbuck_II
2010-02-13, 11:11 PM
Wouldn't even take half the episode, really. Cthulhu is, again, just a little priest. He's nothing, cosmically speaking. For a decent match to TTGL you have to go to the Big Leagues.

Azathoth versus TTGL is quite a match, though. On one side TTGL, powered by the essence of ordered evolution of the living creatures, the will to live, the will to continue and advance. On the other, Azathoth, the cold, uncaring, utterly random center and end of the universe.

A true match of opposites, it would indeed be.

How big a drill are we talking here?

White_North
2010-02-13, 11:18 PM
How big a drill are we talking here?

Two or three galaxies should be a conservative estimate.

SilverStar
2010-02-13, 11:58 PM
Take a kobold Crusader, level 20 or so. Make sure he has Warmaster's Charge and the Leadership feat. Assuming his cohort's high enough level, rinse and repeat this Crusader/Leadership cheese.

All his followers and his cohort have Swarmfighting. Additionally, they have the alternate racial qualities for kobolds described in the web enhancement for Races of the Dragon. With liberal interpretation, they could stuff quite a few kobolds in those spaces around Sir Kobold the Crusader.

He initiates Warmaster's Charge, along with however many other kobolds can manage to pull it off, a readied action to simultaneously initiate or something.

Profit.

Flickerdart
2010-02-14, 12:43 AM
You really want to hurt this thing?

You want to make it whimper in agony as its mind is utterly broken, feed it its own medicine?

Have it try the mind whammy on His Grace Sir Samuel Vimes, Duke of Ankh Morpork and Commander of the City Watch.

It will be satisfying.
And Blackboard Monitor, don't forget.

Jerthanis
2010-02-14, 12:55 AM
Just drop a boat on it.
Has worked for Cthulhu, so it's a proven technique.

I think that the Exalted are a particular bad idea - nobody is resistant against the basic terror of the Elder Ones - namely that the universe just doesn't care and that you are utterly and completely unimportant no matter what you ever do or achieve (I know, it's a bit like strating the obvious). Now the more those who face the Elder One are convinced from the opposite, the harder they fall.
And I really don't want to know what a bunch of mind-crushed, depressive solars would do.

The weird thing to me is that I don't currently have the impression that some incorporeal "universal consciousness" cares about me, or that anything has any import to anything ever... but I didn't always have that belief, and the changing of that understanding didn't leave me a gibbering wreck.

So Lovecraft has always seemed, "Things happen, more things happen, people are crazy for no reason."

I've just never been able to get it. I liked Howard better.

Gamgee
2010-02-14, 01:42 AM
Wait earlier someone said Solars couldn't be beaten. Then you go and say side reals can beat them. I think we have a problem of logic here. If one thing can beat them then thing of the size of all the multi super existence and it get's weird...

Then combine The Mythos in and the blind idiot god is just dreaming all of this. So technically the Mythos win... I mean they are just a product of imagination. The blind idiot is the one doing the imagining. It's not like the dream has any real power to affect him other than get his attention and then he kills you horribly.

I personally think the Solars would go insane if they ever learned of the Mythos and what is really going on. They sound pretty vain glorious, and human... for being that are supposed to be different. Hahaha. Just picture them attempting to warp reality around them only to discover it is the dreaming one who is letting them do it. Oh so funny...

Doesn't matter if you can warp atomic reality, but if you think like a human.. you lose.

chiasaur11
2010-02-14, 01:49 AM
Wait earlier someone said Solars couldn't be beaten. Then you go and say side reals can beat them. I think we have a problem of logic here. If one thing can beat them then thing of the size of all the multi super existence and it get's weird...

Then combine The Mythos in and the blind idiot god is just dreaming all of this. So technically the Mythos win... I mean they are just a product of imagination. The blind idiot is the one doing the imagining. It's not like the dream has any real power to affect him other than get his attention and then he kills you horribly.

I personally think the Solars would go insane if they ever learned of the Mythos and what is really going on. They sound pretty vain glorious, and human... for being that are supposed to be different. Hahaha. Just picture them attempting to warp reality around them only to discover it is the dreaming one who is letting them do it. Oh so funny...

Doesn't matter if you can warp atomic reality, but if you think like a human.. you lose.

What if you think like Sam Vimes?

Gamgee
2010-02-14, 01:50 AM
What if you think like Sam Vimes?
What if your missing context?

JaronK
2010-02-14, 02:52 AM
Taking out Cthulhu is child's play to a good Wizard, especially a Wizard 20. You'd want a Flowing Time [arbitrarily high] Timeless plane created by Genesis for a base of operations. Spend a few days summoning Mirror Mephits to give yourself a horde of Simacrulums of yourself. Haunt Shift them into powerful bodies (Dwarvencraft Quality Hardened Obdurium and Blue Ice are my favorites, but there are other options). Create other resources for yourself as needed. Haunt Shift yourself into a super body as well. As a construct, you're immune to mind effecting... take that insanity! Now open up gates next to the elder god and open fire with any spell you like (I have to wonder what his dex score is... can you drop him with Shivering Touch?). You've got an arbitrary number of rounds while you and your simacrulums open up with any spell you desire. The Elder God doesn't even have time to sense what just happened as he's instantly vaporized.

JaronK

The Demented One
2010-02-14, 02:59 AM
Wait earlier someone said Solars couldn't be beaten. Then you go and say side reals can beat them. I think we have a problem of logic here. If one thing can beat them then thing of the size of all the multi super existence and it get's weird...
They're not omnipotent/invincible. But they are very powerful, they max out very fast, and they are very hard to beat.


I personally think the Solars would go insane if they ever learned of the Mythos and what is really going on. They sound pretty vain glorious, and human... for being that are supposed to be different. Hahaha. Just picture them attempting to warp reality around them only to discover it is the dreaming one who is letting them do it. Oh so funny...
The Exalted were created to kill a pantheon of beings that are essentially Elder Gods. The insane cosmic titans who created the world. They won. Mindless lovecraftian insanity assaults the Solar Exalted, and they just turn on Elusive Dream Defense and laugh.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-14, 03:45 AM
Wait earlier someone said Solars couldn't be beaten. Then you go and say side reals can beat them. I think we have a problem of logic here. If one thing can beat them then thing of the size of all the multi super existence and it get's weird...

I said that a Solar will find a way to win if you're immortal/invincible/unattackable/whatever. It's simply required for any useful narrative to work as the Rule of Cool doesn't work too well when you lose all the time.

Anyway, for people saying a Solar could not defeat a mind-warping eldritch abomination: They already have and do so frequently. They're called Fair Folk. Heck, all of the Exalted defeated the universe's creators, took the leader, cut him open, turned him inside out, stuffed all his buddies inside his body, poked his head and limbs in then sewed him up. Such creators involve the embodiment of the evil of all things, the embodiment of law and structure, the embodiment of pain in all it's forms, the embodiment of language with a body constructed of words and a god of "being better than you and rubbing it in your face". Yes, I'm talking about Malfeas in that last bit because, frankly, what else is he good for?

Even comparing the Mythos universe(a 'horrible' uncaring universe) and the Exalted universe(a universe actively out to get you) doesn't work. Sure, Lovecraft wrote about a universe that doesn't care, but in Exalted the universe has already plotted every single action you would ever take due to Fate. Your existence, down to the breaths you take to survive and the blinking of your eyes is just a inconsequential part in a machine devoted to keeping the world turning. In Exalted, mortals are worthless trash with nothing but the semblance and idea of free-will. In the Mythos, you compare as a grain of sand to the ocean that is the universe. Infinitely small. In Exalted, a mortal compares as a skin cell does to your body. Infinitely small, but useful.

Exalts can tell Fate to screw itself. They can Punch Out Cthulhu too.

Gamgee
2010-02-14, 05:40 AM
They're not omnipotent/invincible. But they are very powerful, they max out very fast, and they are very hard to beat.


The Exalted were created to kill a pantheon of beings that are essentially Elder Gods. The insane cosmic titans who created the world. They won. Mindless lovecraftian insanity assaults the Solar Exalted, and they just turn on Elusive Dream Defense and laugh.

Your not getting it are you? They are a dream, an illusion. It all is! It's one big dream. The sad thing? The mindless one has dreamt that they won. They can't win in this case.

If the idiot mute god is dreaming EVERYTHING then it means fate, their thoughts, actions, rule of cool, and everything. EVERYTHING. Anything you can think of he has thought of, and since they are just more of his thoughts he gives them all of their thoughts.

The problem with the rule of cool is bad guys can use it too. Not to mention it doesn't apply in this case since he is the dreamer and dictates what is cool. They are only Solars if he thinks they are. Sure, go on living your illusion Solars that your all powerful. It's just what you have been made to think, and quite metaphorically literally.

Edit
Cthulu, and even the Elder gods are nothing to him. They are all still a part of his dreams. Just so we are clear on this.

Edit
Solars weakness is that they are in fact subject to the rule of cool. This means all it takes is an opposing force another Rule of Cool to combat them. Then it just boils down to who can yell the loudest and most ludicrous ideas at the most rapid pace. One could even devise a machine to do this, and it doesn't even have to win. Just set it on loop.

You have a bunch of idiotic Solar trying more and more desperately to do something cool and the machine just loops around as they try desperately to come up with the next crazy idea.

Then you can go live in peace committing any act you want.

I could go on really. That's all a Solar is. The manifestation of how ridiculous something can theoretically get. They are naturally too arrogant to think that perhaps they are just one in a vast sea of things on their level.

Edit
Your still thinking too small Zero. A single universe? Try all of existence and not existence and everything in between and outside and even some things I may be incapable of thinking of, and not only that but it is some idiotic thing dreams. Yea, a Solar ain't got **** on that.

Edit
Think of it like this.

Solars: We have come to stop you oh evil thing.
DM: NO! Now, I think we will make Solars a series of cheap skin bars across this side of the universe. ;)

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-14, 06:15 AM
Heck, all of the Exalted defeated the universe's creators, took the leader, cut him open, turned him inside out, stuffed all his buddies inside his body, poked his head and limbs in then sewed him up.Considering that he didn't even have a body until after they'd won, this is no small feat on their part.

@Gamgee: You sure about that? You always, always have 100% concious control over every single one of your dreams like that? Seems to me, anyway, that sometimes these things have a way of taking a life of their own. From what I've gathered, Azathoth isn't even aware of what he's dreaming, on pretty much any scale, anyway.

Really, though, thinking about it now, I wouldn't compare Azathoth to any of the Primordials; Azathoth is more like the Loom of Fate, and the floutists are its Pattern Spiders. Thus, the whole thing should be delegated over to the Sidereals.

Satyr
2010-02-14, 08:09 AM
The weird thing to me is that I don't currently have the impression that some incorporeal "universal consciousness" cares about me, or that anything has any import to anything ever... but I didn't always have that belief, and the changing of that understanding didn't leave me a gibbering wreck.

So Lovecraft has always seemed, "Things happen, more things happen, people are crazy for no reason."

I've just never been able to get it. I liked Howard better.

Yes. Again, the mind crushing revelation that the universe doesn't care about you is more of a setting-specific trait or convention than anything real. Lovecraft was a nutjob, and his several issues sometimes let him to conclusions which seemed terrible in his mind but which are actually quite lame.
Lovecraft also wasn't a very good writer. You can sometimes really see how he tried to express something and strugggled with the words and all he ever managed was rows of adjectives. The story of his life is a little tragedy on its own.

And yes, Howard was the far superior author. Did anyone honestly dispute this?

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 09:38 AM
Your not getting it are you? They are a dream, an illusion. It all is! It's one big dream. The sad thing? The mindless one has dreamt that they won. They can't win in this case.


I don't know how many times I've lost in my dreams (I'd venture a thousand). So using this is a dream logic means Dreaming god loses like a red-headed step child. In triplicate.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 10:02 AM
I don't know how many times I've lost in my dreams (I'd venture a thousand). So using this is a dream logic means Dreaming god loses like a red-headed step child. In triplicate.

No, he dreams that he loses. And maybe wakes up, upon which the universe winks out of existence.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 10:03 AM
Since he is part of ther universe does he not then wink out too?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 10:20 AM
Since he is part of ther universe does he not then wink out too?

His avatar does. The real him does not.

chiasaur11
2010-02-14, 11:45 AM
And how does he guarantee that nothing winks back into existence with him?

A dream becoming all too real, or getting locked into a dream forever? Both Twilight Zone staples, and there's no reason an Elder thing can duck that kind of deal forever.

And that's aside from the rather unfair move of placing everyone else under Azathtothian local rules. Rather like saying Cthulhu could beat up Superman because Superman is fictional.

Neon Knight
2010-02-14, 11:53 AM
Addressing the original post: Well, I notice that there seems to be a class of being that neatly sidesteps both of the vulnerabilities the OP seems to assume to be crippling: Machines. No flesh, and no mind to drive insane.

So send in Skynet. Or the Necrons. Either should do the job pretty handily.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 11:54 AM
Khorne vs Cthulhu/any other Great old one or outer god would be awesome to watch. But I'd back up Khorne against anyone short of Yog-Sothoth. Gork and Mork would easily be able to take Azathoth and Yog-sothoth though.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-14, 11:56 AM
And how does he guarantee that nothing winks back into existence with him?

A dream becoming all too real, or getting locked into a dream forever? Both Twilight Zone staples, and there's no reason an Elder thing can duck that kind of deal forever.

Actually, it sounds like the likely result of such a chain of events, assuming the Solar's are in any way prepared. If there isn't already a charm that would enable you to escape such a fate as your entire dream-existence ceasing to be, then it's probably not that tricky for them to arrive at one.

And given that they are, at the very minimum in this scenario, parts of Azathoth, then it's not even a stretch to say that they have his full unconcious might at his command. (Given the way that concious and subconcious divide, this means they actually quite likely to have MORE power at their disposal than a concious Azathoth himself.

*poof* Azathoth wakes up.

Solar fires off reflexive charm; Shattering of the Wall of Sleep.

Azathoth is awake. Solars crawl out of his forehead, kick the living snot out of him and any surviving elder-gods and, to steal words from a previous poster;

cut him open, turned him inside out, stuffed all his buddies inside his body, poked his head and limbs in then sewed him up.

:smallcool:

Volkov
2010-02-14, 11:58 AM
Actually, it sounds like the likely result of such a chain of events, assuming the Solar's are in any way prepared. If there isn't already a charm that would enable you to escape such a fate as your entire dream-existence ceasing to be, then it's probably not that tricky for them to arrive at one.

And given that they are, at the very minimum in this scenario, parts of Azathoth, then it's not even a stretch to say that they have his full unconcious might at his command. (Given the way that concious and subconcious divide, this means they actually quite likely to have MORE power at their disposal than a concious Azathoth himself.

*poof* Azathoth wakes up.

Solar fires off reflexive charm; Shattering of the Wall of Sleep.

Azathoth is awake. Solars crawl out of his forehead, kick the living snot out of him and any surviving elder-gods and, to steal words from a previous poster;


:smallcool:
Azathoth is completely omnipotent. It is impossible to win against him because there is no limit to his power. Unless your names are Gork and/or Mork. :P

OracleofWuffing
2010-02-14, 11:58 AM
No, he dreams that he loses. And maybe wakes up, upon which the universe winks out of existence.
If the idiot mute god asleep, then he's wide open to a good old fashioned Mindrape. Just saying.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 11:59 AM
If the idiot mute god asleep, then he's wide open to a good old fashioned Mindrape. Just saying.

He is completely mindless, so no.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 12:10 PM
He is completely mindless, so no.

You think that saves him? Complete Mage allows you to affect mindless creatures with mind affecting effects.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 12:12 PM
You think that saves him? Complete Mage allows you to affect mindless creatures with mind affecting effects.

Then comes his defense of total omnipotence. Infinite power cannot be overcome by any means.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 12:13 PM
Then comes his defense of total omnipotence. Infinite power cannot be overcome by any means.

The anti-spirals thought the same. But did the Gurran back down?
"Who the hell do you think I am!"

Volkov
2010-02-14, 12:16 PM
The anti-spirals thought the same. But did the Gurran back down?
"Who the hell do you think I am!"

If he can be beaten, his power was not infinite. The only thing that can overcome infinity is multiplication by zero. Which is why massless particles do not gain infinite mass from going at light-speed. Unless the Solars are nothingness incarnate, they aren't winning.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-14, 12:19 PM
Azathoth is completely omnipotent. It is impossible to win against him because there is no limit to his power. Unless your names are Gork and/or Mork. :P

But in the scenario where anything that exists does so in azathoths mind, and yet there are Solars, then the Solars are also capable of being omnipotent, only they aren't mindless, they're bad-ass. All of Azathoth's power (because as his dreams, they ARE Azathoth) and with the terrifying focus and confidence of a Solar Hero rather than the blind and idiot flappings of Azathoth himself.

OracleofWuffing
2010-02-14, 12:19 PM
Then comes his defense of total omnipotence. Infinite power cannot be overcome by any means.
Unconscious characters automatically fail will saving throws. Amazingly, Divine Ranks don't grant an exception to this by default. So, if you mindrape him out of his total omnipotence, guess who's not totally omnipotent anymore? I guess the conclusion I'm drawing here is that this guy doesn't have infinite power.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 12:21 PM
But in the scenario where anything that exists does so in azathoths mind, and yet there are Solars, then the Solars are also capable of being omnipotent, only they aren't mindless, they're bad-ass. All of Azathoth's power (because as his dreams, they ARE Azathoth) and with the terrifying focus and confidence of a Solar Hero rather than the blind and idiot flappings of Azathoth himself.

Yog-sothoth is the real power in the Lovecraft mythos. At least in my interpretations, he is at least as mighty as azathoth, and is also omniscient and omnipresent. Even if they can get to Azathoth, Yog-sothoth simply obliterates them.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-14, 12:22 PM
Yog-sothoth is the real power in the Lovecraft mythos. At least in my interpretations, he is at least as mighty as azathoth, and is also omniscient and omnipresent. Even if they can get to Azathoth, Yog-sothoth simply obliterates them.

How, though? This is relevant.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 12:27 PM
How, though? This is relevant.
Omniscience and Omnipotence. He knows and sees all and he can do anything. Thus the Solars cannot get the drop on him, nor can they overpower him.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-14, 12:32 PM
Omniscience and Omnipotence. He knows and sees all and he can do anything. Thus the Solars cannot get the drop on him, nor can they overpower him.

How much omnipotent, though? I can find two infinities and have one greater than the other.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 12:36 PM
How much omnipotent, though? I can find two infinities and have one greater than the other.

Complete omnipotence.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 12:47 PM
Yog-sothoth is only almost as powerful. Some how he is wiser than the all-seeing Yibb-Tstll.
He can minipulate time + space, but he is stuck outside of the universe so you don't interact with him.

Where did you read stronger than the A guy?

Admiral Squish
2010-02-14, 12:52 PM
I still say Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann would punch out any 'omnipotent' elder god pretty effectively. Giga drill breaker has that sort of effect.

Really 'infinite' does not mean it goes on forever, just that we don't know if there is actually an end to it.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 12:52 PM
Yog-sothoth is only almost as powerful. Some how he is wiser than the all-seeing Yibb-Tstll.
He can minipulate time + space, but he is stuck outside of the universe so you don't interact with him.

Where did you read stronger than the A guy?

I never said stronger than azathoth. I only said that he is the real power, seeing as Azathoth is mentally challenged. Plus, yog exists at all points in the universe at once.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 12:53 PM
I still say Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann would punch out any 'omnipotent' elder god pretty effectively. Giga drill breaker has that sort of effect.

Really 'infinite' does not mean it goes on forever, just that we don't know if there is actually an end to it.

An hotel with an infinite number of rooms is completely full, yet it always has an infinite number of vacancies because everyone can move just one room down.

Yog-sothoth would know how to beat the Giga Drill ahead of time and overcome it. He is all knowing and all seeing.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-14, 12:54 PM
That just means they don't have to get out of bed and put their shoes on to start poking holes (metaphorically or metaphysically) in him. :)

OracleofWuffing
2010-02-14, 12:55 PM
Complete omnipotence.
If he does not have the power to be overpowered by Solars, then he is not completely omnipotent. Even a level 1 CW Samurai can get overpowered by Solars, while Yog-sothoth is apparently helpless in this task.

This is why omnipotence sucks. :smalltongue:

Volkov
2010-02-14, 12:57 PM
That just means they don't have to get out of bed and put their shoes on to start poking holes (metaphorically or metaphysically) in him. :)

Also, Yog-sothoth can forever scar their minds by mating with a human woman or Shub-niggurath. A sight that even the great old ones would scream and run from. :smalltongue:

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-14, 12:58 PM
If he does not have the power to be overpowered by Solars, then he is not completely omnipotent. Even a level 1 CW Samurai can get overpowered by Solars, while Yog-sothoth is apparently helpless in this task.

An interesting variation on the paradox of the stone, indeed. :smalltongue:

Lifeson
2010-02-14, 12:58 PM
If we're going into Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, then I present Fate/Stay Night's Gilgamesh (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgamesh). Summon him, have money, and every Noble Phantasm (Read: A weapon wielded by every hero (Real, legendary, mythic, etc), ever.) will come.

Surely, eventually you'll have enough god-killing weapons to...well, stab out Cthulhu. And all the rest of the weapons will target the rest of the infinite horde. Just keep having money. :smallcool:

EDIT: Pic related. It's said ability in use:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/File:GOB_fate.jpg

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-14, 12:59 PM
Also, Yog-sothoth can forever scar their minds by mating with a human woman or Shub-niggurath. A sight that even the great old ones would scream and run from. :smalltongue:

Psh, please. That wouldn't scar the minds of about a quarter of the population of the internet, let alone someone with magically robust mental defenses. :smallbiggrin:

Volkov
2010-02-14, 01:02 PM
Psh, please. That wouldn't scar the minds of about a quarter of the population of the internet, let alone someone with magically robust mental defenses. :smallbiggrin:

Have you seen the forms yog-sothoth likes to put his aspects in? Now imagine that mating with a giant gibbering mouther. Only a man from the deepest, darkest depths of 4chan could withstand such a sight with only a scarred mind, anyone else's mind would shatter forever.

Flickerdart
2010-02-14, 01:03 PM
Yog-sothoth would know how to beat the Giga Drill ahead of time and overcome it. He is all knowing and all seeing.
What good will omniscience do for Shoggy if there's no way to defend against Giga Drill Breaker?

Volkov
2010-02-14, 01:06 PM
What good will omniscience do for Shoggy if there's no way to defend against Giga Drill Breaker?

How to avoid it. And how to adjust the laws of physics so it won't be able to work or better yet, won't be able to exist inside his realm. And as higher level theoretical physics tells us, if an object from another universe enters one with laws of physics that do not permit it's existence, it ceases to be to, and is utterly gone for all eternity.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 01:09 PM
And how does he guarantee that nothing winks back into existence with him?

The real him was never out of existence, just asleep.


And that's aside from the rather unfair move of placing everyone else under Azathtothian local rules. Rather like saying Cthulhu could beat up Superman because Superman is fictional.

Not really. Within the Mythos, everything IS fictional (ie within the dreams of Azathoth). That doesn't do much for anything other than Azathoth, but since the whole Mythos exists in Azathoth's dream, you can't be fighting Mythos entities unless you're ALSO part of Azathoth's dream.

ashmanonar
2010-02-14, 01:30 PM
I have been informed that Narwhals, being the jedi of the sea, are capable of stopping Cthulhu. I suggest lots and lots of Narwhals. Heck, let's roll up a Narwhal Solar for Exalted and see what happens.

Failing that, I will throw 4chan at it.

If anything can cause cosmic horror in the mind of a self-described cosmic horror, it is 4chan.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-14, 01:40 PM
...which is why, again, I say the whole Azathoth thing should be delegated over to the Sidereals, provided they can work together in such a way that doesn't trigger their unfortunate "numbers = stupid decisions" curse.

Volkov
2010-02-14, 01:41 PM
...which is why, again, I say the whole Azathoth thing should be delegated over to the Sidereals, provided they can work together in such a way that doesn't trigger their unfortunate "numbers = stupid decisions" curse.

Yog-sothoth knows of their plan ahead of time and promptly outfoxes them.

wadledo
2010-02-14, 02:08 PM
Yog-sothoth knows of their plan ahead of time and promptly outfoxes them.

...But if Yog-sothoth is an insane being who is all knowing and all seeing, why would he care?:smallconfused:

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-14, 02:15 PM
Yog-sothoth knows of their plan ahead of time and promptly outfoxes them.

See, you assume complete omnipotence/knowledge of the future matters to Exalts. Hint: It doesn't. Exalts already have the ability to tell fate to screw itself, and as such have the ability to tell any future-seeing power to screw themselves too. If any omnipotent being attempts to fight an Exalt then his victory is determined by whether or not that Exalt as both a Perfect Attack and a Perfect Defense. If yes, the Exalt wins. If no, the Exalt loses and the next one tries his luck. Eventually our given omnipotent/omniscience being is defeated by an Exalt.

And do you know why the Exalt wins? Because that's what they're meant to do. An omnipotent villain is one of the canon enemies already defeated by Exalts(See the God of Being Better Than You). You're basically saying that a person designed and built to Punch Out Cthulhu cannot Punch Out Cthulhu because he's trying to Punch Out Cthulhu.


Your not getting it are you? They are a dream, an illusion. It all is! It's one big dream. The sad thing? The mindless one has dreamt that they won. They can't win in this case.

Actually you're the one not getting it. It's a question of leagues. Punching Out Cthulhu is what Solars do. They kill police the things that define existence, non-existence, the Wyld, Creation, the Underworld and all the things in between. Because it's their job. They were designed and built by Eldritch Abominations specifically to kill other Eldritch Abominations. In Exalted, it is entirely possible to go into the Wyld and kill the Shinma that defines the concept of being defined. For all intents and purposes, you can kill the very thing that lets you exist. What happens? Depends on the ST, but it's possible. Exalted is in the league where Cthulhu(the actual Mythos Cthulhu and not the trope) is a minion and Azathoth is something Exalts have already defeated.

In short: No matter how awesome is, Exalts are [I]designed, built and expected to kill/enslave/eat it. Simply because that's the league they play in. That's why they're an answer to the OP. A Solar can and will Punch Out Cthulhu, maybe even on a regular basis.



Edit
Your still thinking too small Zero. A single universe? Try all of existence and not existence and everything in between and outside and even some things I may be incapable of thinking of, and not only that but it is some idiotic thing dreams. Yea, a Solar ain't got **** on that.

Ya, Exalted has those too. They're called Shinma. They define what 'is'(it's hard to explain, but basically they define the very concept of being). Exalts could fight them too, but then you get into the issue of "well I just killed the concept of time, what happens now?"

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 02:21 PM
And this is why some don't like Exalted.

Sanguine
2010-02-14, 02:24 PM
And this is why some don't like Exalted.

Actually I've never met someone who's read the setting and didn't like it.

Neon Knight
2010-02-14, 02:26 PM
I've read the setting and I don't like all of it. Select bits and pieces, really.

Unless this doesn't count as meeting me. Either way, I'm merely trying to be cheeky and contrary.

Sanguine
2010-02-14, 02:28 PM
I've read the setting and I don't like all of it. Select bits and pieces, really.

Unless this doesn't count as meeting me. Either way, I'm merely trying to be cheeky and contrary.

Ok this is getting slightly off-topic but is it select bits and pieces you don't like or select bits and pieces you do?

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-14, 02:28 PM
And this is why some don't like Exalted.

Meh. I, for one, like the idea of playing in a different league on occasion. Besides, you're only playing one god killing abomination out of 700 other god killing abominations.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 02:38 PM
Actually I've never met someone who's read the setting and didn't like it.

I've read a decent amount of material about it and think it's wank.

wadledo
2010-02-14, 02:39 PM
I've read a decent amount of material about it and think it's wank.

That is so helpfully descriptive my sarcasm mode actually broke.
Please explain.

Grey Paladin
2010-02-14, 02:41 PM
Actually I've never met someone who's read the setting and didn't like it.

I loved the first edition version inspired by Asian myths,Wuxia, and (mostly) good anime. Second edition feels like Full Metal Inuyasha: The Bleach-ening GX. Also the Sidereals being totally villainified where in Exalted they were just obsessed with the Greater Good and were jerks about it. More tragic heroes than anything (like any Exalt, when it comes down to it).

Never played it for more than a few sessions because the mechanics are as wildly unabalanced as 3.5's.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 02:54 PM
That is so helpfully descriptive my sarcasm mode actually broke.
Please explain.

I was linked to the website, had a look around it, thought it was crap, and closed tab.

Sanguine
2010-02-14, 02:57 PM
I was linked to the website, had a look around it, thought it was crap, and closed tab.

I personally wouldn't call that "a decent amount of material" but that's just me.

Satyr
2010-02-14, 03:08 PM
{Scrubbed}

Grey Paladin
2010-02-14, 03:15 PM
Style Over Substance is the motto of entire generes and movements. What you consider flaws other may call features. You cannot call a game bad if it succeeds in what it has set out to do, even if you personally dislike it; that would be the equivalent of calling a sword bad because it was designed to be good at killing people and killing people is wrong.

wadledo
2010-02-14, 03:16 PM
{Scrubbed}

In all honesty, that seems like more of a personal opinion than anything else.
Exalted and other White Wolf games made me realize how locked in D&D and other d20 systems were, and how ridged the construction was, to the point of inflexibility. One mans superficiality is another mans substance.
Plus, the German translation apparently sucked.

But this is digressing significantly off topic.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 03:34 PM
In all honesty, that seems like more of a personal opinion than anything else.
Exalted and other White Wolf games made me realize how locked in D&D and other d20 systems were, and how ridged the construction was, to the point of inflexibility. One mans superficiality is another mans substance.
Plus, the German translation apparently sucked.

But this is digressing significantly off topic.

Remember, I said I didn't like it, not that it was bad.

randomhero00
2010-02-14, 03:35 PM
This is reminding me of conversations me and my cousin used to have when we we're younger about who would win, a mech vs, i think a wizard or something from magic the gathering. Anyway, the point is, they're different mythos, with different rules, you literally can't truly compare them. If you really want to, you need to create a *new* mythos/universe for them to fight it out in, one where they can both exist.

Sanguine
2010-02-14, 03:38 PM
Remember, I said I didn't like it, not that it was bad.

That post wasn't in response to you. :smallconfused:

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 03:40 PM
This is reminding me of conversations me and my cousin used to have when we we're younger about who would win, a mech vs, i think a wizard or something from magic the gathering. Anyway, the point is, they're different mythos, with different rules, you literally can't truly compare them. If you really want to, you need to create a *new* mythos/universe for them to fight it out in, one where they can both exist.

Bah, Dragonmech combines mechs with D&D. Wizard still rule.

chiasaur11
2010-02-14, 03:45 PM
Yog-sothoth knows of their plan ahead of time and promptly outfoxes them.


You've been playing dirty pool far too long, and it's time someone removes your king from the checkerboard. If you think you hit a home run? Let's dance.*

You've putting everything under Mythos rules at the most pessimistic, and ignoring anything which could even hypothetically outplay it. Howard had mythos stories where ordinary blokes with guts managed to outplay all sorts of nasties from the dark. I mean, if we're forcing guys to work under "they're all dreams of Azathoth" as a STARTING PLACE and then saying "Nuh-uh! He's omnipotent so you can't and he's better than anyone even if they fight this kind of thing all the time!" then I know exactly what to pull.

Bob Hartley. You see, the entirety of the Cthulhu mythos was a dream he had after too much Moo Goo Gai Pan. Which he forgets about entirely after he wakes up, destroying the lot of them forever.

Game. Set. Match.


*I minored in mixed metaphors at the Zapp Brannigan Academy for Military Excellence.

Neon Knight
2010-02-14, 03:54 PM
Ok this is getting slightly off-topic but is it select bits and pieces you don't like or select bits and pieces you do?

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Gamgee
2010-02-14, 04:42 PM
I don't know how many times I've lost in my dreams (I'd venture a thousand). So using this is a dream logic means Dreaming god loses like a red-headed step child. In triplicate.

Yet you just wake up, and you go back to the dreams again and again. The best you can hope for is a stalemate. Your dreams always beating you to consciousness, but then slipping back into sleep and they drive him back again.

Just for the record it is not possible for ones dreams to over power them and come out of their head and kill said person. That is the extent of their power. You can't break reality if all you know is reality. At most the Solars might be able to stalemate the blind idiot god in a perpetual battle that never ends. At worse he tricks all of them into just over coming greater and greater odds in the illusion that they are truly winning. Even their magic works because he chooses it to work. They exist because he chooses them to exist.

To those saying that fate is set in stone. This blind idiot god isn't just "seeing" their fate. He is their fate. What they do to him is what becomes of them. He dreams all of the possibilities, and he makes them happen. Sure, the Solars can just choose not to follow one "fate", and they use their powers to alter it. However, since they are just a part of his dream he dreams that and knows their fate. At best they can forever jump through hoops trying to find a plan that would work. Although that's not possible since it is this god dreaming it all and he knows it. At worse they exhaust themselves and the blind idiot god annihilates them.

If by some amazing miracle they beat the blind idiot god, it is because he let them have the power to do it. So can it be called a victory if this is what he wanted? Like I said, there is no way to win with this thing. The harder you try the more impossible it is. Think of him as an Anti-Everything. Including himself.

Edit
Like I said, the problem with Solars is that they are in fact subject to the rule of cool. How badass is it to kill one? Oh yea... that **** is up there. ;) I expect their numbers to diminish now.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 05:01 PM
Just for the record it is not possible for ones dreams to over power them and come out of their head and kill said person. That is the extent of their power. You can't break reality if all you know is reality. At most the Solars might be able to stalemate the blind idiot god in a perpetual battle that never ends. At worse he tricks all of them into just over coming greater and greater odds in the illusion that they are truly winning. Even their magic works because he chooses it to work. They exist because he chooses them to exist.

Freddy Krueger.
Yes. there is a record for fiction. In real life, there are people who have died in their sleep as well.
Why? Because you believe it is real so much that your brain makes you actually feel the experience.

Closak
2010-02-14, 05:05 PM
You want to punch out Cthulhu?

Why settle with that?

Why not just use "Omega Big Bang Apocalypse" and sit back and watch as the multiverse blows to hell over and over for the rest of infinity.


Omega Big Bang Apocalypse: Recreates the Big Bang at several thousand times the strenght of the original Big Bang and allows the explosion to pierce planar boundaries, affecting all planes in existence and also breaking time, meaning that the explosion occurs in all possible timelines and in all points of history simultaneously.
Time travel or planeshifting won't save you, splitting the timeline will do nothing, the explosion will get you anyway as it overwhelms all magical protections including epic ones, hiding in a private demi-plane won't work either as the explosion will reach there too.

One second later a second identical explosion occurs, then a third, then a fourth, and so on for the rest of eternity.

The only way to survive this attack is through having enough raw hit points to not be vaporized by the blast, then being able to somehow flee to another reality altogether (As in another multiverse)


Whatever is capable of casting that is one nasty critter.
But if you want to be really sure that you killed Cthulhu off for good this is what you want, screw collateral damage.
Good luck finding a being with enough power to use it though.

chiasaur11
2010-02-14, 05:11 PM
Freddy Krueger.
Yes. there is a record for fiction. In real life, there are people who have died in their sleep as well.
Why? Because you believe it is real so much that your brain makes you actually feel the experience.

Not to mention a ton of Twilight Zones.

We left real life behind the second we mentioned Cthulhu. Don't even try to pretend you're on any firmer ground than anyone else.

Gamgee
2010-02-14, 05:22 PM
{Scrubbed}

The Glyphstone
2010-02-14, 06:15 PM
Freddy Krueger.
Yes. there is a record for fiction. In real life, there are people who have died in their sleep as well.
Why? Because you believe it is real so much that your brain makes you actually feel the experience.

Yes, people die in their sleep - from old age, strokes, heart attacks, blood clots and (occasionally) murder. I doubt there's ever been a recorded case where someone died in real life because they died in a dream...primarily because it'd be impossible to prove, you can't exactly interview them afterwards.

Jarrick
2010-02-14, 08:37 PM
Where have I heard this before...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKPvODNOM14&feature=related

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-14, 09:04 PM
You want to punch out Cthulhu?

Why settle with that?

Why not just use "Omega Big Bang Apocalypse" and sit back and watch as the multiverse blows to hell over and over for the rest of infinity.


Omega Big Bang Apocalypse: Recreates the Big Bang at several thousand times the strenght of the original Big Bang and allows the explosion to pierce planar boundaries, affecting all planes in existence and also breaking time, meaning that the explosion occurs in all possible timelines and in all points of history simultaneously.
Time travel or planeshifting won't save you, splitting the timeline will do nothing, the explosion will get you anyway as it overwhelms all magical protections including epic ones, hiding in a private demi-plane won't work either as the explosion will reach there too.

One second later a second identical explosion occurs, then a third, then a fourth, and so on for the rest of eternity.

The only way to survive this attack is through having enough raw hit points to not be vaporized by the blast, then being able to somehow flee to another reality altogether (As in another multiverse)


Whatever is capable of casting that is one nasty critter.
But if you want to be really sure that you killed Cthulhu off for good this is what you want, screw collateral damage.
Good luck finding a being with enough power to use it though.

I'm hazy on various things with Exalted still, but my instinct is that this is what Perfect Defences are for. (Of course, it's entirely possible that unless they have some kind of charm to negate the source of an attack like this or a really quick spell to create/travel to another plane, that the repeating nature of the explosions might just sap their essence over the course of a few dozen big-bangs.)

Abd al-Azrad
2010-02-14, 11:28 PM
My fear regarding using a liberal amount of Solars to fight this beast: they're awesomely powerful, yes, they were built by Godlike beings to kill other, more primordial Godlike beings, yes... but they don't have infinite Essence. Recall...


The/An immense Cosmic Horror/Abhorrent One has pierced the veil between worlds and wishes to feed upon the souls, the brains, the bodies of the huddled pathetic masses below. Its very presence ravages flesh, liquefying it into thick chunks of vomit, and warps the mind, leaving gibbering, drooling husks.

A multitude of parasites descends thickly as it shakes its prodigious bulk. Every action dislodging a seemingly infinite number, each powerful in their own right, a host of locusts desiring to rend everything to carrion, and a virulent acidic rain that burns craters and holes in buildings and flesh.

We have a lot of problems to deal with here. Let's assume Exalted rules apply. Best case scenario, we have a ton of spawn that are essentially noncombatants in the fight- they don't present enough of a threat to force the Solar to spend any essence at all, they can be mopped up en masse at any point, so we just have to fight the big bad and deal with fallout later. A well designed Solar fears no coordinated attacks of these minions, no onslaught penalties to DV, so I can imagine this being the case.

At this point, we have a dangerous field of mental assault, coupled with some sort of aura attack that destroys living matter. Once again, best case scenario, once our Solar resists these twin attacks (with their perfect defenses, perfectly), she doesn't have to resist them again: they are one-time attacks. This is likely not the case (I'm more thinking these are attacks that hit every tick), but even then, we've burned a specially-designed Combo that includes both a mental and a physical perfect defense. A few motes, less than ten, and a dot of Willpower.

Now, choppy time. Our cosmic horror likely has a lot of very high values: high attacks dealing a lot of damage, similarly high defenses, a ton of health levels... it's just not going to be a pushover. So the Solar has to use an expensive Combo every action to hurt the Horror. Like, 2+ dots of Willpower and an arbitrary amount of Essence. And Essence to fuel her perfect defenses, possibly multiple times between actions. Solars are awesome, but they can run out of Willpower. Even stunting constantly, with a liberal Storyteller, she may have to take a hit or two eventually.

I'm not saying Solars will fail, I'm just saying it's not a sure thing. Honestly, a situation like this is reminiscent of the plot of Chrono Trigger. Fighting a cosmic horror requires a lot of finesse: learning it's strengths and weaknesses, gathering your resources and positioning your weaponry, likely bouncing through time a bit, manipulating probability, a heck of a good plan for damage containment, etc.

You can't just throw Solars at a problem until it goes away.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-15, 12:24 AM
If there is any game that screams "I don't like my life and I need to be something special in my free time to cope with the fact that my life is mediocre, so I replay omnipotence fantasies", it's Exalted. That's not cool, that is a depressing mixture of embarassment and pity.

Personally, I think you're coming off pretty passive-aggressive there.

See: You seem to have this idea that Exalted is about being invincible and defeating all your enemies. Thing is: That's not how Exalted plays out. Again, it's a difference of leagues. Sure, compared to the Cthulhu Mythos or even epic level D&D wizards, Exalts are always more powerful. But in Exalted, you're not the biggest fish around. You may be an immensely powerful god killing abomination, but so is everyone else. It's entirely possible to play Exalted and do nothing but beat up mortals. In fact, after about 25~ XP you can kill an almost arbitrary number of mortals with ease. But lets say you go out and kill a whole town. Congrats, you killed a bunch of worthless extras. The people that matter won't die nearly so easily.

As for the No True Scotsman fallacy(or, in this case, no true mature adult) about power fantasy: That's just blatantly false. If you wanted to have an omnipotent fantasy you'd play a group of epic-level wizards in D&D 3.5.


[Exalted Mechanics]

I'd address this in detail, but it's reliant on one thing: What's the XP value of the given Solar? Essence 3 or 2 would probably get steam-rolled, 4-5 would need two or three Solars in tandem, but 6+ is more or less a homerun for a solo Solar. Don't forget: A scene-long perfect defense is entirely reasonable at that level of Essence.


I'm not saying Solars will fail, I'm just saying it's not a sure thing.

This statement as well is very reliant on the XP value of the given Solar.


Honestly, a situation like this is reminiscent of the plot of Chrono Trigger. Fighting a cosmic horror requires a lot of finesse: learning it's strengths and weaknesses, gathering your resources and positioning your weaponry, likely bouncing through time a bit, manipulating probability, a heck of a good plan for damage containment, etc.

...Uh, I dunno which Chrono Trigger you played, but in the SNES version only the time-travel and weapon gathering happened. Hell, those kids ran right into the future expecting everything to be fine and dandy after they killed the bad guy. They didn't even know that Lavos' outer shell wasn't it's true form until it's head got cut off. Or you flew the Epoch into it. Really, whichever route you took they were surprised.


You can't just throw Solars at a problem until it goes away.

Now that's extra super reliant on knowing the XP value of our given Solar. I agree that X number of Essence 2 Solars wouldn't do any good, but one Legendary Solar from the First Age could easily steamroll any Eldritch Abomination you'd like.

sambo.
2010-02-15, 12:35 AM
What can be done?

take 1d100 sanity points per round you are in Cthulhu's presence and hope you're not in the d3 deaths/round.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-02-15, 01:29 AM
ZeroNumerous: All excellent points. I do appreciate that Exalted, as a system, is ridiculously open-ended, developing powers to handle given situations is very easy, and in general, it allows you to do literally anything. I got a bit carried away, I shall admit, working within the core rules of basic PC Solars.

But to be honest, I just don't find Exalted to offer an interesting or useful answer. Using a Solar of arbitrary strength is basically turning to the most open-ended and powerful RPG to provide us with a warrior that can be as powerful as it needs to be, to kill any God. Within the core rules of the system, Solars face problems killing our current BBEG. Otherwise, we're basically playing a cosmic game of one-upmanship, a point that has come up several times already in this thread. We can imagine we have an arbitrary amount of raw power to deal with any threat, including ones that are beyond the scope of human imagination, but I really see turning to Solars of arbitrary power as exactly the same as turning to any other random God of arbitrary power to protect us. It's prayer.

So we have answer #1: Assume we are more powerful than the monster, or have direct access to more powerful allies. Good. Done.

Answer #2: Assume we are not. Assume a worse case scenario. Allow any number of things to go wrong. Maybe it has an Essence-impeding field, in which charms don't work? Whatever. I honestly just don't think that brute-forcing through this battle is within the spirit of the question. We're facing a nightmare scenario here, with a creature that is causing destruction on a global scale. Addressing ways to delay said destruction and gather intelligence on it is more important than deploying our (possibly limited) Solar Exalted immediately to kill it dead. I mean... what if they fail?

Oh, heck, I'll admit it, I just like nightmarish end-of-the-world scenarios. Hence the name.


...Uh, I dunno which Chrono Trigger you played, but in the SNES version only the time-travel and weapon gathering happened. Hell, those kids ran right into the future expecting everything to be fine and dandy after they killed the bad guy. They didn't even know that Lavos' outer shell wasn't it's true form until it's head got cut off. Or you flew the Epoch into it. Really, whichever route you took they were surprised.

Really shouldn't allow us to get sidetracked from the main point, but the entire game was about learning about Lavos. They fought it (and died) at least once, they learned it's primary (and one of it's more powerful) attacks, they fought it's spawn several times, as well as conversed at length with it's worshippers... and they were still surprised when it came to the final showdown. Far as I'm concerned, without all the time spent learning about it, gathering resources (including rounding up every warrior on the planet who stood a reasonable chance of defeating Lavos), getting themselves a freakin' time machine, choosing their exact time of attack... come on! They worked their buns off to stop the destruction of their world. It's a tough job!

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:11 AM
Freddy Krueger.
Yes. there is a record for fiction. In real life, there are people who have died in their sleep as well.
Why? Because you believe it is real so much that your brain makes you actually feel the experience.

There are people who died in their sleep, but it likely wasn't due to dreams. The Matrix's take on this is... not accurate.

Grey Paladin
2010-02-15, 04:48 AM
I'm kind of tired of people calling Solars the most powerful things out there - compared to their god-like status they are positively low-powered when compared to Wizards until they reach high-XP values, where they eventually beat them. A character in Nobilis is a thousand times more powerful.

FatR
2010-02-15, 06:46 AM
That may well be! The fact that you're capable of losing is what makes the game fun. But, you're also capable of winning!
No. You chance of adversely affecting a Deathlord-level entity is 0%. No, not one in a million chance, 0%. By the word of game writers themselves, you need 2,5 years of weekly gaming just to have a shot at the weakest Deathlord, if everything that is ever possible to interpret against said Deathlord is interpreted against him. Note, that if it is not, and opponents at least have access to the same sourcebooks, the Deathlord still squashes a full circle of 500xp Solars like insects. Also, powers of Exalted are fairly weaksauce in general, compared to what you can do in DnD or most superhero games.

Returning to the original question of the thread, Wizard 20. If you feel that there is no kill like overkill, add Cleric 20 and Druid 20.

FatR
2010-02-15, 06:56 AM
I'm kind of tired of people calling Solars the most powerful things out there - compared to their god-like status they are positively low-powered when compared to Wizards until they reach high-XP values, where they eventually beat them. A character in Nobilis is a thousand times more powerful.
Exactly. Exalted system not only cannot handle anything resembling extremes of power without breaking in half, but it is just lacks necessary mechanical diversity to model really powerful guys from various media and characters who can stand up to them. In the Exalted world, being immune to being directly damaged or killed makes you the top dog of the setting. Now, how many higher-end superheroes didn't defeat at least one invulnerable and immortal enemy? However, I very strongly disagree, that Exalted ever beat DnD Wizards, assuming equal playtime. They gain power extremely slowly, compared to geometric power inflation hardcoded in pre-4E DnD. And anything that circumvents their narrow powerset, like Forcecage, or Plane Shift to somewhere like the Plane of Infinite Agony pretty much destroys them.

FatR
2010-02-15, 07:12 AM
ZeroNumerous: All excellent points. I do appreciate that Exalted, as a system, is ridiculously open-ended, developing powers to handle given situations is very easy, and in general, it allows you to do literally anything.
This is a very false statement. Exalted is not an open-ended system. Not even its own writers dare to claim something so obviously untrue. An offhand statement that you can create new powers does not make it any different from other systems in this department. Exated does not actually faciliate the creation of new powers in any way, shape or form. In fact, despite the many years of demands from players for Charm creation guidelines, we still have nothing of the sort. DnD is approximately five million times open-ended than Exalted, at least for casters, because the process of creating new powers is exactly the same (cajoling your GM into accepting them), but costs you nothing particularly important (getting more money is fairly trivial). In Exalted, you must pay from your scarce XP pool to gain them.

Moreover, Exalted is pigeonholed into an extremely mechanically narrow paradigm, which is also poorly defined, partiually due to its narrowness (either you can parry arguments with your sword, or any sort of combat-time mind-affecting **** goes right past your defensive shell!) and effects beyond its limits either are so useless that no one bothers with them, or break the game in half.

pming
2010-02-15, 09:15 AM
Hiya


The/An immense Cosmic Horror/Abhorrent One has pierced the veil between worlds and wishes to feed upon the souls, the brains, the bodies of the huddled pathetic masses below. Its very presence ravages flesh, liquefying it into thick chunks of vomit, and warps the mind, leaving gibbering, drooling husks.

A multitude of parasites descends thickly as it shakes its prodigious bulk. Every action dislodging a seemingly infinite number, each powerful in their own right, a host of locusts desiring to rend everything to carrion, and a virulent acidic rain that burns craters and holes in buildings and flesh.

What can be done?

Walk up to him and head-butt his toe. :) My character did that (just before he was gobbled up with Cthulhu's "Gobbles up 1d8 investigators each round" attack). Seriously. Throughout the adventure, there were about 6 'dream-visions' where you can see big ol' C, and you have to make your SAN check or loose 1d100. Each and every time I failed my SAN, and took 1d100 SAN loss...and each loss was no greater than 3, IIRC. My guy was a sweedish wrestler come to the USA for some back-room fighting circuit. Anyway, he had a metal headband he used to head-butt people.

When Cthulhu finally broke free (we failed to stop the bad guys, obviously), and started to bring about the end of the world, everyone looses 1d100 SAN just looking at him (no check, iirc). I lost 1 SAN. "Huh. Yup, still kinda ugly" I said, as I walked up and head-butted his toe. He looked down for a second and saw who did it...then promptly ate me.

That said, even though I died, I can *guarantee* I was remembered throughout all the 'strange eons' by Cthulhu as the one human who just was NOT affraid of him, and physically head-butted his toe. There's no way he was ever going to live that down! ;)

Ormagoden
2010-02-15, 09:26 AM
Hiya



Walk up to him and head-butt his toe. :) My character did that (just before he was gobbled up with Cthulhu's "Gobbles up 1d8 investigators each round" attack). Seriously. Throughout the adventure, there were about 6 'dream-visions' where you can see big ol' C, and you have to make your SAN check or loose 1d100. Each and every time I failed my SAN, and took 1d100 SAN loss...and each loss was no greater than 3, IIRC. My guy was a sweedish wrestler come to the USA for some back-room fighting circuit. Anyway, he had a metal headband he used to head-butt people.

When Cthulhu finally broke free (we failed to stop the bad guys, obviously), and started to bring about the end of the world, everyone looses 1d100 SAN just looking at him (no check, iirc). I lost 1 SAN. "Huh. Yup, still kinda ugly" I said, as I walked up and head-butted his toe. He looked down for a second and saw who did it...then promptly ate me.

That said, even though I died, I can *guarantee* I was remembered throughout all the 'strange eons' by Cthulhu as the one human who just was NOT affraid of him, and physically head-butted his toe. There's no way he was ever going to live that down! ;)

I would have peed on his toe.



Curse you, Oracle, curse you! I had just had them narwhals out of my head!

The only thing left to do is to spread the misery!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykwqXuMPsoc

Bwahahaa!!!!!!

God that was awesome!


On a side note Share pain infinite loop would work wonders on the most horrible of the elder gods.

The Demented One
2010-02-15, 09:44 AM
This is a very false statement. Exalted is not an open-ended system. Not even its own writers dare to claim something so obviously untrue. An offhand statement that you can create new powers does not make it any different from other systems in this department. Exated does not actually faciliate the creation of new powers in any way, shape or form. In fact, despite the many years of demands from players for Charm creation guidelines, we still have nothing of the sort. DnD is approximately five million times open-ended than Exalted, at least for casters, because the process of creating new powers is exactly the same (cajoling your GM into accepting them), but costs you nothing particularly important (getting more money is fairly trivial). In Exalted, you must pay from your scarce XP pool to gain them.

Moreover, Exalted is pigeonholed into an extremely mechanically narrow paradigm, which is also poorly defined, partiually due to its narrowness (either you can parry arguments with your sword, or any sort of combat-time mind-affecting **** goes right past your defensive shell!) and effects beyond its limits either are so useless that no one bothers with them, or break the game in half.
Bwuh? I...I don't think you really get how Exalted works.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 10:38 AM
Just use a large volume of investigators. IIRC, the 1d100 sanity loss is almost entirely luck dependant, so that can be cured by volume. Or being blind, since I believe only seeing him is problematic. Blind guys with shotguns may also be problematic, though.

Likewise, the 1d3 deaths per round can be cured by volume.

In short, the way for humans to defeat cthulu would be by simply using a zerg rush.

Neon Knight
2010-02-15, 10:46 AM
Since my send in the machines suggestion got about as good of a response as Psychonauts did from the general gaming public, I'll go with another alternate suggestion, one that taps into the main stream of conversation.

So, we've talked a bit about Solars and the possibilities therein, and jokingly mentioned Sidereals. What about Lunars, though? They're not as powerful as Solars, but I do remember reading that nothing can change a Lunar's form or transmute it, and nothing can prevent a Lunar form changing its shape aside from certain limitations built into that capability. That negates one-half of the trump presented by the OP, and the other can be dealt with by a perfect mental defense.

I still think the best way to go about this is to assault is to negate the "destroys flesh" and "destroys minds" abilities presented in the OP, which I believe both of my suggestions do. They aren't the trumps that they seem to be.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-15, 10:53 AM
I still think the best way to go about this is to assault is to negate the "destroys flesh" and "destroys minds" abilities presented in the OP, which I believe both of my suggestions do. They aren't the trumps that they seem to be.You know, you could even combine your suggestions - put a Lunar in a warstrider.

TTGL references to follow. :smallcool:

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 11:26 AM
So, robots controlled remotely? IE, uavs? Pah, we could take him down now, even ignoring the fact that a steamboat was apparently enough to do the job.

If that's plenty, I can't imagine a nuke failing.

FatR
2010-02-15, 04:00 PM
Bwuh? I...I don't think you really get how Exalted works.
I do get how the Exalted works. I have several years worth of bruises and disappointments to show for it. You don't. You mistake empty and mechanically unsupported promises + certain GM minset (which is system-independent) for something that Exalted actually delivers.

FatR
2010-02-15, 04:03 PM
You know, you could even combine your suggestions - put a Lunar in a warstrider.

TTGL references to follow. :smallcool:
Exalted is a complete antithesis of TTGL. On almost every conceivable level. Saying that they are alike in anything is insulting to TTGL.

EDIT: To slightly elaborate, Exalted is all about elitism and being forever stuck in your divinely-ordained position, unless you win the Exaltation lottery, in which case your position merely changes. There is only one NPC in the entire history of the setting who serves as a counterexample, and she's the Big Bad now. TTGL is all about breaking boundaries imposed from above. Exalted is all about degeneration and downfall, TTGL is all about evolution. Exalted is all about the human spirit's failures, TTGL is all about its triumphs. That's before even touching the mechanics...

Starbuck_II
2010-02-15, 04:07 PM
I do get how the Exalted works. I have several years worth of bruises and disappointments to show for it. You don't. You mistake empty and mechanically unsupported promises + certain GM minset (which is system-independent) for something that Exalted actually delivers.

Bruises... I don't think fictional games can hurt you physically...

FatR
2010-02-15, 04:13 PM
Bruises... I don't think fictional games can hurt you physically...
Well, if you headdesk hard enough...

The Demented One
2010-02-15, 04:56 PM
I do get how the Exalted works. I have several years worth of bruises and disappointments to show for it. You don't. You mistake empty and mechanically unsupported promises + certain GM minset (which is system-independent) for something that Exalted actually delivers.
From experience, Exalted is far, far easier to homebrew than D&D. There may not be guidelines to writing charms, but that hardly means it can't be done. It can be done. Lots of it.

Coidzor
2010-02-15, 04:59 PM
To slightly elaborate, Exalted is all about elitism and being forever stuck in your divinely-ordained position, unless you win the Exaltation lottery, in which case your position merely changes. There is only one NPC in the entire history of the setting who serves as a counterexample, and she's the Big Bad now. TTGL is all about breaking boundaries imposed from above. Exalted is all about degeneration and downfall, TTGL is all about evolution. Exalted is all about the human spirit's failures, TTGL is all about its triumphs. That's before even touching the mechanics...

TTGL versus the Exaltedverse. I'm sort of just squeeing right now at the thought.

The Demented One
2010-02-15, 05:03 PM
TTGL versus the Exaltedverse. I'm sort of just squeeing right now at the thought.
*Kamina looks at the Exalted host.*

*Merela looks at the Gurren-dan."

"You...you wanna go on a date sometime?"

Sewblon
2010-02-15, 05:06 PM
Hit his head with a boat.

Flickerdart
2010-02-15, 05:06 PM
That's before even touching the mechanics...
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g26/sagaranna/misc/p2_leeron1.jpg
TTGL's mechanics are a little...off.

FatR
2010-02-15, 05:32 PM
From experience, Exalted is far, far easier to homebrew than D&D. There may not be guidelines to writing charms, but that hardly means it can't be done. It can be done. Lots of it.
From experience as well - it isn't. The underlying math is borked, the system is not really meant to handle power levels beyond one presented in the Corebook, and the instant you start meddling with things that actually are relevant for Celestial-level characters, you risk introducing new ways to break the system in half. Likely by expanding the Invulnerability Club. At least, the writers fall into this trap more often.

But even if I'm wrong, this does not change the fact, that Exalted is, at the least, not any more open ended than DnD. Someone's ability and willingness to make stuff up is not a feature of the system.

DarknessLord
2010-02-15, 06:04 PM
Depends on what's playing in the background, obviously. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThemeMusicPowerUp)

We get some heavy bass and some ominous drums, we're all screwed, get THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNm0Fj4x-OU) and we've as good as won.

Also even if we kill the person who's dream is the universe or whatever that doesn't mean we're all screwed, I recall one video game where I managed to get the universe deleted (because it was secretly an MMO for higher beings) and they managed to survive anyways. And that was no where near the zany level exalted or TTGL gets to.

Closak
2010-02-16, 08:08 AM
You know, this discussion just gave me an idea.

Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan and the rest of the TTGL universe VS The Avatar Of The End Of All Things VS every single freaking Exalted or Solar ever VS Every single one of Lovecrafts's creations including Azatoth.

...I don't think the universe would survive that...
Or the Multiverse for that matter.
I think a war like that would affect more than one universe.

And just for lulz we may as well drop SSJ 4 Gogeta of in the middle of the crossfire and see what happens.

Weimann
2010-02-16, 08:57 AM
You know what? I've love to see The Demented One and FatR settle this score. Maybe we can take the discussion to a thread made for the purpose? As to not derail this thread that was about C'thulu at some point in the beginning, right?