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HMS Invincible
2010-02-13, 03:19 AM
What is the wizard power that you rely on to get through most of your encounters?(paragon and lower please)

When I started off, I went with flaming sphere cuz of the mobility, auto damage + another attack spell per turn. Then I hit lvl 5 and I can't say no to stinking cloud at lvl 5 because it does everything flaming sphere does, but to a bigger area.

However some in my group told me that stinking cloud was a bad choice because it slowed down combat. They said that since it blocks vision for everyone, and has a big area, nobody can fight when I cast the cloud.

What other choices should I consider?
I got an artful dodger rogue and a shaman, barbarian, and a druid/hybrid wizard backing me.

Edit: Yes, I'm ignoring Sleep for now, it's in this limbo between nerfed and unnerfed, so it's banned until the GM can figure out some house rules for it.

Touchy
2010-02-13, 03:21 AM
My friend uses flame shield then runs around the enemies(assuming they are in a nice, neat little group for us) to provoke excessive amounts of opportunity attacks.

It's funny as hell.

HMS Invincible
2010-02-13, 03:31 AM
My friend uses flame shield then runs around the enemies(assuming they are in a nice, neat little group for us) to provoke excessive amounts of opportunity attacks.

It's funny as hell.

I know wizards are tougher in this edition, but if he provokes like 5 attacks, will he still be in one piece at the end of the turn?

erikun
2010-02-13, 06:39 AM
Leather Armor + Defensive Mobility + Staff of Defense + Shield = a whole lot of AC. I have no clue why you would want to provoke that many OAs though, unless you have a party paladin who can mark everything.

As for your daily, it depends on the group. Some groups are largely ranged, as so Stinking Cloud would stop them from attacking anything in the cloud. Some groups have a lot of melee strikers, so they would have no problem running through the cloud.

Stinking Cloud itself deals some damage (1d10+INT) and blocks line of sight, but doesn't stop anything from running around or through it. It works best in a group with tough meleers, as it forces ranged enemies to go around/through, thus putting them in melee range, or your allies can take a bit of damage to attack enemies on the other side of the cloud. It is pretty bad if most of your group relies on ranged attacks, though, for most of the above reasons.

As for other powers, Web is the ranged fighter's best friend: it auto-immobilizes anything in it; it creates difficult terrain; you can toss more stuff inside with Thunderwave; and it doesn't block line of sight for any of your attacks. It isn't very friendly to melee attackers, though, unless they can teleport or don't mind being stuck inside. Bigby's Icy Grasp is a single-target power, but it sticks around for the whole encounter, deals damage, can repeatedly immobilize a target, and can switch targets after the first one dies. It also doesn't prevent anyone from attacking the grabbed target.

Dimers
2010-02-13, 08:23 AM
However some in my group told me that stinking cloud was a bad choice because it slowed down combat. They said that since it blocks vision for everyone, and has a big area, nobody can fight when I cast the cloud.

I don't have the Arcane Power book or DDI, so I can't give a lot of advice on power options. I just read the situation instead.

If your enemies don't want to fight you, stinking cloud helps them get away (which may be fine if you still get XP and if they don't return to harass you later). If they're determined enough to go through/around it in the first place, then you can just maintain/move the cloud so that it's always crawling up their backs without touching your allies. The foes you put back inside the cloud each turn will spend some of their time escaping it again, making it a good choice for the controller.

Points to ponder: (1) Does your DM feel that you moving the cloud onto someone counts as "entering" it? If so, it's effectively double damage (they enter it and then also start their turns in it). (2) Does the cloud affect everything it passes over while moving, or are the fumes weaker as it moves? The spell is nastier to both friend and foe if it hits everything while moving.

Generally speaking, if your party tells you not to use a certain spell, the group will have more fun if you don't.

Finally, your rogue will like chill strike, icy terrain, color spray, and spectral ram, because those all give him/her CA.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-13, 10:33 AM
If your group does not appreciate Stinking Cloud, then the two best alternatives are Web and Visions of Avarice. The latter must be seen to be believed - it provides so much control it's amazing.

The spell I rely on for most encounters, however, by definition can't be a daily, right? I would rely on Color Spray, Twist of Space and Thunderwave, myself.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-13, 01:35 PM
Stinking Cloud can be very effective (my party hates when the DM uses it against us), but it can also be a bit troublesome to your party and I believe poison is the most common damage type for enemies to be immune to.

Personally, I rely on Wall of Fire + Thunderwave as my "I need to make this encounter die" abilities. That's usually for the most dangerous encounters. Visions of Avarice is for locking down large melee encounters.

None of my encounter powers really stands out as something I rely on, I just blast them all one after the other, varying the order based on which one is most useful to me at the time. However, once I hit paragon Fire Shroud is going to be my favourite since it's almost certain to eventually kill at least one enemy.

valadil
2010-02-13, 02:58 PM
You know you can try stinking cloud for a level or two and then retrain if it's too obnoxious. I heard similar complaints when I took it in a 3.5 game, but when people saw it in actual play instead of just speculation they didn't mind so much. The trick for that game was to not cover up everyone I could. Just block off most of the combat. Let us fight 2 out of 6 guys at a time. By the time the others get out we'll have finished the first two.

Edge of Dreams
2010-02-13, 04:47 PM
Bigby's icy grasp. It's like flame sphere, except it immobilizes an enemy. Hint: On your next turn, let go as a free action, grab them again, *then* sustain for auto-damage. Or something like that.

Kaun
2010-02-13, 05:00 PM
Bigby's icy grasp. It's like flame sphere, except it immobilizes an enemy. Hint: On your next turn, let go as a free action, grab them again, *then* sustain for auto-damage. Or something like that.

Yeah +1 to this.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-13, 06:26 PM
Yeah +1 to this.
Imho, -1 to that. Wizards have the best zone and area effect spells in the game, and they get the excellent Enlarge Spell. They shouldn't be wasting their dailies on single-target effects, and probably not their encounter powers either.

Shardan
2010-02-13, 06:44 PM
I've seen alot of advice where a power or two is always held for solo/BBEG control. take out or lock down the one dangerous one while the party mops the detritus up. then the beat down ensues

I would suggest one power for this purpose. one power that is superior in its ability to absolutely shut down single target rather than hinder a crowd.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-13, 06:47 PM
I would suggest one power for this purpose. one power that is superior in its ability to absolutely shut down single target rather than hinder a crowd.
Sure, but Grasping Hand doesn't really shut down anyone, it just deals a bunch of damage that any striker could do better. Most BBEGs aren't overly worried by becoming immobilized.

Shutting down a single target doesn't appear to be feasible until level 13 (Mirror Sphere) or level 15 (Wall of Ice).

Mando Knight
2010-02-13, 07:02 PM
They shouldn't be wasting their dailies on single-target effects, and probably not their encounter powers either.

I object to this notion. Area attacks aren't always the best idea either, like if you're fighting a few extremely tough opponents. I'd use the Spellbook feature to learn one area and one single-target daily spell of each level, and always have at least one of each prepared after level 5. I'd also recommend doing the same with at-wills and encounter powers, grabbing a single-target attack for smashing the solo flanked by half the rest of your party or picking off minions who don't have the decency to cluster together, and an area attack to strike at anybody who believes in phalanxes and strength in tightly-packed numbers.

Also remember that the better-made single-target spells generally have better damage dice and/or side-effects than similar-level area spells (with a few notable exceptions).

Kurald Galain
2010-02-13, 07:20 PM
Also remember that the better-made single-target spells generally have better damage dice and/or side-effects than similar-level area spells (with a few notable exceptions).

I would like to see examples for this to compete against e.g. (L1) Grasping Shadows or Orbmaster, (L1) Sleep, (L3) Color Spray, (L5) Stinking Cloud or Web, and (L7) Twist of Space. I'm not sure there's anything that does significantly more damage and/or has a better effect than those.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-13, 08:20 PM
I would like to see examples for this to compete against e.g. (L1) Grasping Shadows or Orbmaster, (L1) Sleep, (L3) Color Spray, (L5) Stinking Cloud or Web, and (L7) Twist of Space. I'm not sure there's anything that does significantly more damage and/or has a better effect than those.

My personal preference is for area of effect attacks, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here:
Chill strike (L1) - extra damage die, better effect
Pinioning Vortex (L3) - extra damage die, questionably better effect
Spectral Ram (L7) - lots more damage, similar effect
Plague of Illusions (L19) - three nice effects that are better than those of any spell of its level

So, there are good single target spells. Spectral Ram was the only one I saw that could do more damage than the same level area of effect spell hitting two targets though. Against a single foe, however, these spells are superior to spells of the same level. In general though, I think area of effect spells are better than single target spells. For instance, I didn't find any single target dailies better than the ones listed and as much as I like Plague of Illusions, I'd find the level 15 daily Primastic Beams more useful most of the time.