PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Ways to abuse an anima mage



Arakune
2010-02-13, 01:13 PM
Let's say you are a human (or other race with bonus feats), with two flaws. You have 4 feats at first level (Bind Vestige; Bind Vestige, Improved; Invisible Spell; Precocious Aprendice; ???) and if my interpretation is right, now you can be a Wizard/Sorcerer 1/Anima mage 10.

How do you break this?

Optimystik
2010-02-13, 01:29 PM
Yes, you can enter Anima Mage without actually being a Binder, but there are bound to be better choices to do so than Wiz/Sorcerer, because Anima Mage only advances one arcane or one manifesting class. Try fighter instead for the bonus feat, fort save and BAB, for example.

Darrin
2010-02-13, 01:37 PM
Let's say you are a human (or other race with bonus feats), with two flaws. You have 4 feats at first level (Bind Vestige; Bind Vestige, Improved; Invisible Spell; Precocious Aprendice; ???) and if my interpretation is right, now you can be a Wizard/Sorcerer 1/Anima mage 10.

How do you break this?

Emphasis added. Whenever you add that metamagic feat to any spell, you have to try really *REALLY* hard NOT to break something.

As far as binding/anima mage... I'm not all that familiar with the mechanics, but the Bind Vestige feat (Improved or otherwise) is not particularly... useful, let's say. Since I think you only get one vestige ability via feats, you can only trade it in for one bonus spell slot. Thus, you're spending four feats for something you could do with just one feat by picking up Extra Slot instead.

Vestige Metamagic is a little more towards the broken end of the pool, but if I understand it correctly, you can apply one metamagic feat to any spell you cast once every 5 rounds. So in that respect... yeah, I guess that would be fairly powerful once every 5 rounds, particularly if you're using persistent spell, but other than that... the usual stacking shenanigans with Arcane Thesis and so forth are a little easier to pull off, but very feat intensive. Going full-on Anima Mage without picking up bonus metamagic from Wizard or Incantatrix levels means the more powerful combos won't kick in until the very high levels, when even un-optimized non-Metamagic Wizards can do similar stuff.

Arakune
2010-02-13, 01:39 PM
Yes, you can enter Anima Mage without actually being a Binder, but there are bound to be better choices to do so than Wiz/Sorcerer, because Anima Mage only advances one arcane or one manifesting class. Try fighter instead for the bonus feat, fort save and BAB, for example.

Care to elaborate how to do it? You still need to cast second level spells.

Edit: Oh right, Persist Spell. Good way to persist for free all your buffs.

Claudius Maximus
2010-02-13, 01:43 PM
I think he thinks that you have both a level in wizard and a level in sorcerer.

Optimystik
2010-02-13, 01:52 PM
I think he thinks that you have both a level in wizard and a level in sorcerer.

Yes, that is what I had thought :smallredface:

Sorcerer is not a good choice - Vestige Metamagic actually says nothing about preventing an increase in casting time. Logically, it should, but RAW it does not.

Radar
2010-02-13, 03:42 PM
Yes, that is what I had thought :smallredface:

Sorcerer is not a good choice - Vestige Metamagic actually says nothing about preventing an increase in casting time. Logically, it should, but RAW it does not.
With Arcane Spellsurge, that defect becomes an asset. :smallsmile:

Otodetu
2010-02-28, 11:59 AM
Searched up this topic btw

If I have bind vestige and bind vestige improved as a level 3 wizard, and start gaining anima mage levels, what happens to my binder progression?


The class ability reads: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

The feat reads: If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefits.


If I where to interpret this in a rather abusive way I would say you start binding as a real level 1 binder at your first level of anima mage, but you have paid two feats for the benefit.

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 12:03 PM
That seems to be the RAW because of the specific wording. There is no "+1 to existing binding class" clause that most progression PrCs have.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-28, 12:14 PM
Ok, I must be missing something, why not just take one level in binder? Vestiges have some pretty nice abilities.

lord_khaine
2010-02-28, 12:24 PM
Because each level of binder taken is 1 level not taken as a wizard.

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 12:33 PM
Because each level of binder taken is 1 level not taken as a wizard.

The issue is that you get zero benefits from the binder half of Anima Mage if you just enter via feats, and if you at least take one level of binder you end up with a couple decent vestiges to bind with you. On top of that, wizards/sorcs can be pretty feat-intensive at it is.

One lost caster level and one feat -> gain 6th level vestiges and 11th effective binder level (including the ability to get an extra spell per day and the ability to more effectively nova with Vestige Metamagic)
Two lost feats -> don't lose the caster level.

I'd rather have the extra feat and the extra vestiges, myself.

Sliver
2010-02-28, 01:02 PM
Searched up this topic btw

If I have bind vestige and bind vestige improved as a level 3 wizard, and start gaining anima mage levels, what happens to my binder progression?


The class ability reads: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

The feat reads: If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefits.


If I where to interpret this in a rather abusive way I would say you start binding as a real level 1 binder at your first level of anima mage, but you have paid two feats for the benefit.

So you can start as a wizard with the feats, enter anima mage, gain binder benefits and lose feat benefits, and then retrain your feats to something you can use?

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 01:09 PM
So you can start as a wizard with the feats, enter anima mage, gain binder benefits and lose feat benefits, and then retrain your feats to something you can use?

If you retrain the feats, though, you no longer qualify for anima mage.

sofawall
2010-02-28, 01:15 PM
If you retrain the feats, though, you no longer qualify for anima mage.

The Binder advancement qualifies itself.

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 01:19 PM
No it doesn't. As soon as you retrain the feats, you no longer have the ability to bind vestiges except by something granted by the class itself. You can't qualify for a prestige class using itself. Therefore, you lose all benefits of anima mage, except for skill points, BAB, and hit dice.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-28, 01:19 PM
+1 level of existing Binder class. It only advances a class you already have. If you've never been a Binder, it advances nothing.

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 01:21 PM
+1 level of existing Binder class. It only advances a class you already have. If you've never been a Binder, it advances nothing.

Unfortunately, reading through it doesn't say that. Which is really screwy. It advanced you as a binder, even if you had no binder levels before.

My argument for 2 feats versus a caster level and a feat still stands though, at least for me. Also less likely to get a book thrown at your head.

EDIT: Welll...

At each anima mage level, your soul
binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in
the binder class.
It may or may not actually give you binder levels. I'm not sure.

Greenish
2010-02-28, 01:22 PM
You can't qualify for a prestige class using itself.You sure about that? Since Anima Mage gives you virtual Binder levels, you couldn't lose that qualification once you get in, no?

[Edit]: And yeah, this is rather RAWtarded and inconsequential. :smallbiggrin:

Sliver
2010-02-28, 01:29 PM
You can't qualify for a prestige class using itself.

I'm interested in the source of that.. It seems pretty popular to me that fallen paladin levels are traded for blackguard levels. Won't it mean that unless you have enough BAB from other sources, you would disqualify yourself from the blackguard PrC?

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 01:32 PM
You sure about that? Since Anima Mage gives you virtual Binder levels, you couldn't lose that qualification once you get in, no?

[Edit]: And yeah, this is rather RAWtarded and inconsequential. :smallbiggrin:

At every moment in time, you have to qualify for the prestige class, without taking into consideration anything the prestige class gives you. If you lose the prerequisites - in this case, retraining the feats - you no longer qualify.

Essentially, you have to be able to look back at your chart of progression, line by line, and go:

Level 1 - FS Wizard. Bind Vestige, Invisible Spell, Scribe Scroll
All's good, move on...
Level 2 - FS Wizard.
All's good, move on...
Level 3 - FS Wizard. Improved Vestige.
All's good, move on...
Level 4 - Anima Mage.
All's good, move on...

However, when you retrain, you end up with:
Level 1 - FS Wizard. Improved Initiative, Invisible Spell, Scribe Scroll
All's good, move on...
Level 2 - FS Wizard.
All's good, move on...
Level 3 - FS Wizard. Split Ray.
All's good, move on...
Level 4 - Anima Mage.
Not good. You lack the prerequisites for your 4th level class, and so you lose all benefits. You can't use the prestige class to power itself because you check everything up before said class to make sure you qualify.

EDIT: Blackguard is a specific exception to the rule. It's kind of along the same line as the Schrödinger Dragon Disciple.

Sliver
2010-02-28, 01:37 PM
EDIT: Blackguard is a specific exception to the rule. It's kind of along the same line as the Schrödinger Dragon Disciple.

But where can I find that rule? And where can I find said exception as being called out as such?

sofawall
2010-02-28, 01:39 PM
So if I qualify for something using a Ring of Evasion, take it off, and put it on again, I cannot qualify for the prestige class, as I gained the Evasion after the prestige class levels?

Greenish
2010-02-28, 01:40 PM
At every moment in time, you have to qualify for the prestige class, without taking into consideration anything the prestige class gives you.I can't recall having seen that spelled out, where is it clarified?

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 01:40 PM
You seem to have an interesting interpretation of the simple rule:
"Should a character find herself in a position where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities gained from levels of the prestige class." It says nothing about the PrC not being able to qualify itself.

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 01:41 PM
From Complete Warrior (and I believe Complete Arcane and several other sources):


Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character
to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position
where the character no longer qualifi es to be a member of the
class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a
prestige class, he or she loses the benefi t of any class features
or other special abilities granted by the class. The character
retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as
any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses
that the class provided.

EDIT: Ah, I see what people are saying. My interpretation of it is that you have to always meet the PRErequisites for the class; that is, you have to have everything you need to qualify for the class, without taking the class into consideration. Hence the work "PRErequisites." I'm not sure that's actually spelled out anywhere.

sofawall
2010-02-28, 01:44 PM
From Complete Warrior (and I believe Complete Arcane and several other sources):



EDIT: Ah, I see what people are saying. My interpretation of it is that you have to always meet the PRErequisites for the class; that is, you have to have everything you need to qualify for the class, without taking the class into consideration. Hence the work "PRErequisites." I'm not sure that's actually spelled out anywhere.

So we are agreed that what the book actually says in the actual rules published by the actual authors is that the retraining trick works?

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 01:44 PM
At every moment in time, you have to qualify for the prestige class, without taking into consideration anything the prestige class gives you. If you lose the prerequisites - in this case, retraining the feats - you no longer qualify.

I'd like to know where it's stated this is the case. I know you must qualify for a PrC to continue to have access to it, but if the PrC itself grants the very ability you need to access to it then you still qualify. It's idiotic, but it's RAW.

EDIT: Ironic that my avatar is a ninja...

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 01:45 PM
So we are agreed that what the book actually says in the actual rules published by the actual authors is that the retraining trick works?

No, because of the definition of prerequisite. They are not requisites of the class, but prerequisites.

sofawall
2010-02-28, 01:45 PM
No, because of the definition of prerequisite. They are not requisites of the class, but prerequisites.

Please show me where prerequisite is defined in D&D.

EDIT: A quick search of the SRD tells me that 'prerequisite' isn't even used in the Prestige Class descriptions.

EDIT2: Tome of Magic tells me the same.

Now are we in agreement that the actual printed rules let you do this?

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 01:47 PM
Please show me where prerequisite is defined in D&D.

It's not - just like DAILY spells are not defined. Some people are of the opinion that means that you can rest for 8 hours and get your entire spell load back, but the definition of daily contradicts that. Or doesn't. Depending on your interpretation. There is no RAW and RAI is very unclear.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-28, 01:47 PM
Which says absolutely nothing about the Prestige Class not being allowed to qualify for itself. And things qualifying for themselves are common (Tome of Battle maneuvers are an obvious example - you can have three Tiger Claw maneuvers, qualifying you for Girallon Windmill Fleshrip and Raging Mongoose, and then forget two of the lower level Tiger Claw maneuvers as the two 8th level maneuvers will count towards your required 3).

Yes, it does seem that Anima Mage grants a level in Binder even if you don't have one, and thereafter that level of Binder would qualify you for the class. That's positively screwy, though.

Greenish
2010-02-28, 01:47 PM
EDIT: Ah, I see what people are saying. My interpretation of it is that you have to always meet the PRErequisites for the class; that is, you have to have everything you need to qualify for the class, without taking the class into consideration. Hence the work "PRErequisites." I'm not sure that's actually spelled out anywhere.The way I interpret it to work is that you need to prerequisites to take the first level of a prestige class, and if you ever lose those prerequisites, you lose (most of) the benefits from the PrC.

Sliver
2010-02-28, 01:49 PM
But prerequisites are something that is required beforehand. D&D made a new definition, so other definitions don't apply. Prerequisites are something that you have to meet at all times. That is pretty much it.

Like the word always describing race's alignments..

sofawall
2010-02-28, 01:49 PM
Note my edits above, specifically where "prerequisite" is not even used in Prestige Class entries.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 01:50 PM
It's not - just like DAILY spells are not defined. Some people are of the opinion that means that you can rest for 8 hours and get your entire spell load back, but the definition of daily contradicts that. Or doesn't. Depending on your interpretation. There is no RAW and RAI is very unclear.

Arcane Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm).


To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.

Further: PrCs use "Entry Requirements" rather than "Prerequisite". I even checked a non-SRD source(ToB for those who feel it relevant to know).

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 01:52 PM
There is no RAW and RAI is very unclear.
There is RAW, and by RAW it works perfectly. It's your very stretched reading of it that's trying to create a rule where one doesn't exist.

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 01:56 PM
The way I interpret it to work is that you need to prerequisites to take the first level of a prestige class, and if you ever lose those prerequisites, you lose (most of) the benefits from the PrC.

Yes, I simply interpret it to also mean you must qualify for the class before ever taking the class itself into consideration, with very specific exceptions (blackguard, etc).

I see I am of the minority opinion here and will stop arguing the point. Though I am interested in seeing what people think about a Wizard3/Master Spec10/Incantatrix7 going back and retraining his first 3 levels to Incantatrix, getting rid of those pesky 3 dead levels. Because as far as I can tell, there's no rule forbidding this.

EDIT: Oh my. I can't believe I thought it said Prereqs under classes; that's feats only. I feel rather foolish now :smallredface:

sofawall
2010-02-28, 01:59 PM
Yes, I simply interpret it to also mean you must qualify for the class before ever taking the class itself into consideration, with very specific exceptions (blackguard, etc).

I see I am of the minority opinion here and will stop arguing the point. Though I am interested in seeing what people think about a Wizard3/Master Spec10/Incantatrix7 going back and retraining his first 3 levels to Incantatrix, getting rid of those pesky 3 dead levels. Because as far as I can tell, there's no rule forbidding this.

EDIT: Oh my. I can't believe I thought it said Prereqs under classes; that's feats only. I feel rather foolish now :smallredface:

Retraining has rules that stop you from doing that, though. It's under the retraining section in the PHB2, oddly enough.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-28, 02:02 PM
Which on Feats only states that you must have been able to take the Feat you want at the time you took the feat you're losing.

Sliver
2010-02-28, 02:02 PM
Only rebuilding can change classes I believe.. And you can't choose a specific level to lose there.. How are you going to exchange the first levels exactly?

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 02:03 PM
Retraining has rules that stop you from doing that, though. It's under the retraining section in the PHB2, oddly enough.

Yes. I just read through them, several times. Nothing says you can't take your first 'dead' levels and retrain them into something better, unless I missed it. I'm sure I *did* miss something, or I would have heard about this in TO more often. But the closest I found was

You can also use this method to trade out (or add in) prestige
class levels, though if you want to take levels in a prestige class
that’s new to your character, you must be able to demonstrate
that he can still qualify for it using what he has gained from his
remaining class levels.

Otodetu
2010-02-28, 02:03 PM
So, is Wizard 3, anima mage 1, a valid build, and what happens to your binding power, does it drop from effective binder level 5 as the feat grants, down to binder 1 (as the feat states that if you later become a binder you lose the benefit of the feat) or do you simply not gain any binding power what so ever? (the wording does seem to give you the latter; binder 1)



Soul Binding Bonus: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your anima mage levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a binder would have gained.

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 02:07 PM
If you retrain 3 Incantatrix levels, you're a 7th level Incantatrix, not a 3-10th level Incantatrix. That's just common sense, same as you can't take the 10th level of Swiftblade or the 20th level of Dread Necromancer without going through the previous ones.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-28, 02:08 PM
I believe he meant the three levels of Wizard, but I could be wrong.

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 02:10 PM
I believe he meant the three levels of Wizard, but I could be wrong.
You need a casting progression to progress, so you can't actually do that.

tyckspoon
2010-02-28, 02:11 PM
I see I am of the minority opinion here and will stop arguing the point. Though I am interested in seeing what people think about a Wizard3/Master Spec10/Incantatrix7 going back and retraining his first 3 levels to Incantatrix, getting rid of those pesky 3 dead levels. Because as far as I can tell, there's no rule forbidding this.


Assuming you can retrain a base class level into a PrC level- I'm not that familiar with the retraining rules- you could get to a minimum of Wizard 1. If you attempt to retrain that level, you will cease being a spellcaster entirely, because that feature is granted by having a Wizard level. Master Specialist and Incantatrix both need a base spellcasting progression to advance.

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 02:12 PM
If you retrain 3 Incantatrix levels, you're a 7th level Incantatrix, not a 3-10th level Incantatrix. That's just common sense, same as you can't take the 10th level of Swiftblade or the 20th level of Dread Necromancer without going through the previous ones.

Okay, that was a poor example.
Wizard3/Master Specialist10.
Retrainbuild two of the wizard levels to IotSV.
Take the last 5 levels of IoSV.
You are now Wizard1/IotSV2/MS10/IotSV5/X2.

EDIT: Wiz1/Archmage2/IotSV7/Inc10 seems like it would be a 'good' build :smallamused:

DragoonWraith
2010-02-28, 02:16 PM
You still can't because of the rebuilding rules. So that point is moot. It's not because of requisites but because of the way rebuilding works.

But for the Anima Mage, RAW it absolutely works.

lsfreak
2010-02-28, 02:18 PM
You still can't because of the rebuilding rules. So that point is moot. It's not because of requisites but because of the way rebuilding works.

But for the Anima Mage, RAW it absolutely works.

Can you point out why not? Like I said, I'm sure I missed something. But I'm not seeing anything preventing you from doing what I said, besides common sense and decency.

Sliver
2010-02-28, 02:18 PM
Okay, that was a poor example.
Wizard3/Master Specialist10.
Retrainbuild two of the wizard levels to IotSV.
Take the last 5 levels of IoSV.
You are now Wizard1/IotSV2/MS10/IotSV5/X2.

EDIT: Wiz1/Archmage2/IotSV7/Inc10 seems like it would be a 'good' build :smallamused:

Yeah, it works. But it's not just erasing some class for another.. You have to do it IC..


Since rebuilding constitutes such a major change in your character's identity, accomplishing it isn't simply a matter of erasing an entry on your character sheet and replacing it with new information. <snip>
Therefore, to accomplish a character rebuild, your PC must complete a significant and challenging quest.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-01, 02:53 AM
Searched up this topic btw

If I have bind vestige and bind vestige improved as a level 3 wizard, and start gaining anima mage levels, what happens to my binder progression?


The class ability reads: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

The feat reads: If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefits.


If I where to interpret this in a rather abusive way I would say you start binding as a real level 1 binder at your first level of anima mage, but you have paid two feats for the benefit.

Then you Chaos Shuffle the Bind Vestige and Improved Vestige. :smallamused:


Can you point out why not? Like I said, I'm sure I missed something. But I'm not seeing anything preventing you from doing what I said, besides common sense and decency.

There is no rule that a PrC can't qualify for itself. You only lose the benefits if you don't meet the prerequisites. So assuming you meet the prereqs all the time, you can use Anima Mage to qualify for itself (If you lost the prereqs, though, you're kinda screwed).

Rebuilding has additional rules of its own, and iirc they amount to "everything has to be legal at the level at which you're taking it". So you're not allowed to use a PrC to qualify for itself there.

Otodetu
2010-03-01, 08:33 AM
Need to be a level 3 anima mage before you can chaos shuffle, but yes I see your point and I am liking this build more and more.

JaronK
2010-03-01, 04:04 PM
Here's the problem: You're screwed at Wizard 3/Anima Mage 1. Why? Because you need to be able to bind second level vestiges, which Anima Mage 1 can't do, and you just lost Bind Vestige because you have a Binder level now. So no go.

Anima Mage is still well worth the one lost caster level from Binder 1 with Improved Binding.

JaronK

DragoonWraith
2010-03-01, 04:35 PM
Actually, a Wizard 3/Anima Mage 1 could bind 2nd level Vestiges, if they have the Improved Binding feat. So retrain one of the feats into Improved Binding if necessary. Or hold off retraining until Anima Mage 3.

Jeez, I just noticed - a Wizard 1 could qualify for Anima Mage if they had two flaws (Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, any Metamagic, Precocious Apprentice), and a way to get Intimidate on their class list (which may be impossible without another feat, but if there's a Fighter feat that qualifies...). That's insane.

EDIT: Can be done.

Non-Good Human Focused Specialist, Fighter Bonus Feats Wizard 1 with two flaws.
Take Bind Vestige (1st level), Improved Bind Vestige (Human Bonus feat), any Metamagic (first flaw), Precocious Apprentice (second flaw), and trade Scribe Scroll for Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit maneuver). Put 4 ranks in Intimidate and K. (The Planes). You now qualify for Anima Mage at 2nd level.

noiadodh
2010-03-01, 05:52 PM
Only rebuilding can change classes I believe.. And you can't choose a specific level to lose there.. How are you going to exchange the first levels exactly?

level draining :smallbiggrin:

Otodetu
2010-03-01, 10:31 PM
Non-Good Human Focused Specialist, Fighter Bonus Feats Wizard 1 with two flaws.
Take Bind Vestige (1st level), Improved Bind Vestige (Human Bonus feat), any Metamagic (first flaw), Precocious Apprentice (second flaw), and trade Scribe Scroll for Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit maneuver). Put 4 ranks in Intimidate and K. (The Planes). You now qualify for Anima Mage at 2nd level.

Hmm, any way to gain intimidate as a class skill without having to use a feat?

noiadodh
2010-03-02, 07:44 AM
Hmm, any way to gain intimidate as a class skill without having to use a feat?

what you mean here? as an ACF?

Otodetu
2010-03-02, 10:31 AM
what you mean here? as an ACF?

Badly worded i guess, was late.

What i mean is is there a easier way to get into the prestige class at level 2?

And i guess not, as the previous build was pretty much super cheesed.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-02, 10:55 AM
According to the definitive list of alternate ways to get class skills (that is, without level dips), the only ways to do it are feats, and possibly a domain. So yeah.

The other thing is that technically, you don't get Class Features until after placing Skill Points. Which in theory would mean that you cannot put 4 ranks in Intimidate at level 1, because when you put those points you don't have it as a class skill (since it doesn't come until you get the bonus feat as a class feature). I don't think there's any way around that, though.

If there's an ACF for the Wizard to get Intimidate, that would easily work. A different Arcane spellcasting class for which you can use Precocious Apprentice and has Intimidate as a class skill would also work.